Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 02:47 AM

I have listened to most of Han senior's output as Hank and ans "Luke the Drifter" many time. the talent and depth is undeniable.

I have heard Hank III in one concert. On one occasion and can't deny that he is a very intelligent and empathetic songwriter.

I am very familiar with Hank jr's output.
Hank 2 has a distinctive voice. But the only thing that he can with about that resonates with me is his poor relationship with his father.

Hank jr's career as it is would not exist without hi dad. So his opinion is worth as much as any man, standing on his dad's shoulder.   

He called Obama Hitler. He called Boehner Netanyahu. In my opinion he insulted both Americans. And maybe because Boehner is a public crier, Hank insulted Netanyahu even more.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:58 PM

S'long as everyone's gettin' along . . .

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM

eh? oh god don't tell me you're Canadian.....

yeah ya right Jeri, why do I let it bother me, life's too damned short, and there are far more important things to worry about than Hitler (he's dead) Hank Williams Jr (he must be close to being dead)
Godwin's law is irrelevant, except to those that care, and doo doo heads will...well they'll always be doo doo heads (what a quaint saying) Oh and gnu, thanks for reminding me, I have turn the soil over in my backyard this weekend...digin' just dig it....and smile :-)

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM

But didn't we decide earlier that Hank Williams Jr was the official doo-doo head of the thread?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM

Sorry Jeri. I just get pissed off. I know I should know better but sometimes it just gets up my nose eh??????

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 07:41 PM

When one is in a thread about Hank Williams Jr getting into hot water over a comment he made and you find yourself in a pissing contest over who isn't too serious about the pissing contest (or the thread, or Hitler analogies, or Godwin's law, or who's a doo-doo head), it's a good idea to simply stop, and let those who AREN'T serious keep going.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM

Keep diggin.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM

we;ll apparently some folk take it way too seriously as you'll note
Me...? I'm laughing at them

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,Skivee-Guesting in
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 05:06 PM

BTNG, I regret that you were apparently unable to understand that both my comments were intended as humor. I will try to be more obvious in the future.
...Unless you were actually being intensely ironic in your posting; and the inference that I hold the Godwin's Law thing as any real meter of intra=webs-tubes validity is actually you playing along with me.
I that case I will try to not be as inobvious as it seems to some but not all that I was being then at that point.
Wow, this unintentional trolling thing can be so much fun.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:47 PM

this neighbour of mine, half his family disappeared through the gates of Treblinka...... the old one way train ride

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:35 PM

good for you Jeri...being a little over earnest yourself, I note.....mildly amusing at best. Just not for long

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:03 PM

My uncle Jim was a doctor in one of the early Mash units in WW2. His unit was the first medical in the Buchenwald death camp. His first hand accounts were where I learned about the Nazis and what they were capable of doing to a people.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 04:02 PM

I think Godwin was taking his math seriously. Not so much, Usenet discussions. I think people are taking this thread too seriously, and people who Try Too Hard are just plain funny. People who React Too Strongly are fairly amusing as well.

...just not for long.

As for Hank Jr, he got canned, and I'm fine with businesses in the public eye not wanting their employees or associates to make them look like dorks.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:25 PM

figured that one would come down the pipe from a member of the politically inept.... the stock answer from a stock loony left script

....right, seriously now...Nazism was/is insidious, evil, maybe the greatest man made evil ever created on this planets. if you never lived through it you have NO idea, (the term Nazi is bandied about far to easily with the sayer generally not knowing what the hell they're talking about) I didn't know a thing except from sanitized versions in history books until I learned at the knee of a neighbour who had experienced it at first hand, he and his family barely got out with their lives. I learned more than I ever really wanted to know,but knowledge is power.

so, as the saying goes ..engage brain before putting mouth in gear

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 01:01 PM

"I still think you're all taking the law way too seriously and I still think it's a joke FYI "

Well - THAT'S a typical Nazi remark.....

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM

Well, Godwin disagrees with you.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 12:48 PM

I still think you're all taking the law way too seriously and I still think it's a joke FYI

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 11:23 AM

Wikipedia on Godwin's Law

Godwin has stated that he introduced Godwin's law in 1990 as an experiment in memetics.

Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons. "Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust," Godwin has written.

From the Usenet FAQs on Godwin's Law

As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

And somewhere in there:

Quirk's Exception: Intentional invocation of this so-called "Nazi Clause" is ineffectual.

My understanding is it's meant as an observation of what typically happens, you can't deliberately try to to end a discussion by invoking Godwin's law, and it doesn't count when the actual subject of the thread involves Hitler and the Nazis.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM

Godwin's Law was never a joke. It was more a form of social/internet experimentation. Godwin's own remarks are clear about that. fyi

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

you take Mike Godwin far more seriously than Mike Godwin wants to be taken, Godwon's law was meant as a joke, and taking it seriously, of course, proves that you, "skivee", have absolutely no sense of humour, which must be causing Mike Godwin to laugh his face off. If you must quote someone, at least learn something about that person.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,skivee, guesting in
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 09:37 AM

"If so, who is the loser?

the person who mentioned (a)
Godwin's Law and (b) not knowing they'd gone too far already, the corollary to the aforementioned law."

Oh, This is not the first time that great scientific minds such as mine have been mocked.It's often so that the giants are thought mad.
Copernicus, Einstein,Godwin,Hank Williams Jr.,Skivee. Time will prove us all geniuses.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:55 PM

If so, who is the loser?

the person who mentioned (a)
Godwin's Law   and (b) not knowing they'd gone too far already, the corollary to the aforementioned law

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,Skivee-Guesting in
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:53 PM

The oft quoted "Godwin's Law" states approximately that in any intra-nets-web discussion, somebody will eventually ramp the flames up until Herr Hitler is mentioned. At that point the Hitler invoker is declared the loser.
This thread started out with a mention of a mention of Hitler and now has nothing to do with the subject of Hitler as a rhetorical barb.
Have we discovered an inverse corollary to Godwin's Law here?
If so, who is the loser?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:39 PM

well let's see the research then...nothing so far and I've just been to a trustees meeting at the church congregation I attend ( I am a trustee, if it matters any)

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:00 PM

C'mon guys - get a room.....

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM

And I'm not in the least religious. Just a fan of a level playing field--and research.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM

Stalin plus Mao plus Hitler.   This is a recording.

I note there is still no rebuttal.

But some Mudcat atheists, who revel in attacking religion at every opportunity, somehow object when unsavory truths about prominent atheists are brought up.   Gee, I wonder why they don't appreciate it when the shoe is on the other foot.

Yet again, calling someone a troll doesn't really count as a rebuttal. Sorry.

What about that research you were going to do, since it appears you might possibly object to the figures cited in BTNT's article?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 12:28 PM

"Everything and nothing. It's a concept."

arrrr...well...that be the question, bain't it? be it a concept or be it an hypothesis....oi'll be arskin' the vicar about that one bit later......

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 11:30 AM

Y'know if you combine the people killed by athists AND believers in a higher power it adds up to - everybody!!

The other thing I know is that there are hundeds of these believers vs non-believer threads on the Mudcat. And if you add them all together you solve nothing.

Everything and nothing. It's a concept.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM

Ron "The Troll" Davies.

Yes I posted the piece, cut and pasted from the source material, editing out, the unimportant parts, such as that which told me and others how wonderful Jesus is and how he will redeem and save this world and the world's souls etc. blather and blah blah (my one prayer is this: Dear God, protect me from your followers)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinion you read, as I said, is the opinion of the author of the piece....I am NOT that author
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I challenge you to defend the proposition that:

atheism...is the single largest killer in all of human history (and just the stats you quote don't count, it's only one source, three independent and verifiable sources are required, by academic rules)

That is the challenge, defend it, or shut up.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: John P
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 09:58 AM

Hey, folks, feeding trolls like Ron Davies only encourages them. PLEASE ignore him. If you really want to hear what he has to say on this subject, go read any of the other dozens of times he's wasted everyone's time with his trollery.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 08:30 AM

Oh Exalted Simple Seeker Afrer Truth[sic]:

Not content with the absurdity propounded in your initial idiotic statement

atheists have been responsible for more deaths than anything else in human history.

you now compound it with the further nonsensical bullshit

That atheism...is the single largest killer in all of human history

Is your reluctance to defend this point perhaps due to the fact that you know it to be indefensible?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:31 PM

Also, when somebody posts a link or article, it is a reasonable guess--and on Mudcat has usually been the case--that he or she may well agree with the article. People do not usually post articles they completely disagree with--especially on serious topics.

The poster is always free to make clear he does not agree with the post--which was not done in this case.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:14 PM

"contradicted by nobody--including him."   Anybody who can read would realize that "including him" establishes that I realize that you might not agree.    That does not change the fact that it was posted by you, and therefore--in plain English--believe it or not--your post. As I said.

Perhaps you would like to make the acquaintance of the English language at some point.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM

"The Church can hang..."

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:02 PM

You quoted from your source, and as I said, the source is correct in the main point--that atheism, and particularly 3 specific atheists, have indeed been the worst thing in human history, causing more deaths than anyone else. I still await any contradiction--with exact source and quotes.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM

The opinion you read is the opinion of the author of the piece....I am NOT that author, I merely quoted from the source, so you see I know exactly what I'm talking about....

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:29 PM

What are you talking about?

That atheism--especially atheistic Communism--is the single largest killer in all of human history--is exactly my position.

You evidently agree with me--and don't even know it.

Physician, heal thyself.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM

editing to suit your own rather dubious position are you, Davies...try re-reading what I actually posted.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The single largest killer in all of human history is, by far, atheistic Communism with a total of 110,000,000 …

over 1/3 of all people ever killed!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------
If we add to that number just two other regimes where religion of any sort was strongly discouraged, Nazi Germany and Nationalist China, the number rises to 141,160,000.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

learn to read, Davies, instead of editing, then read my source material, if you can.....

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM

Stalin and Mao were both atheists.   I note nobody has come up with any evidence that they were not.   And of course we can throw Lenin in also,    Why not? Join the fun.

The BTNG post of 11:46 PM 24 Oct has been contradicted by nobody--including him. The post should have said that Communist China, not Nationalist China, was responsible for most of the deaths (e.g. the Great Leap Forward and other various campaigns led by Mao).   But by and large the general tenor is accurate.    And of course it is well known that Stalin was indeed responsible for millions of deaths before World War II.

I think 100 million is definitely on the high side of deaths caused by Communism (called Marxism by its leaders) but the actual figure absolutely makes clear that any figure of deaths caused by religion is tiny by comparison.

As for Hitler, he only allowed a "German church" which in practice meant whatever the state said. He was the head of the state.    The 3rd Reich even tried to substiute Hitler for God in the minds of the youth.

Remember membership in the Hitlerjugend was made compulsory in 1936 for all boys and girls 10 to 18.

One of the songs they sang at Nuremberg rallies:

No evil priest can prevent us from feeling that we are the children of Hitler.
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel
Away with incense and holy water
The Church can hand for all we care.
The swastika brings salvation on earth.

A "prayer" at Nuremberg went:

Fuehrer, my Fuehrer
Thou hast rescued Germany from deepest distress
I thank thee for my daily bread
Abide thou long with me, forsake me not
Fuehrer, my Fuehrer, my faith and light.

Source: Richard Gruenberger, A Social History of the Third Reich (1991)


I'm sorry I don't have the original German so I could check the translation, but I suspect it is accurate.

In 1936, a sustained campaign against Catholic monasteries and convents began. One of the choice methods to discredit Catholics was to bring charges of sexual offenses.    They then implied strongly that this was extremely widespread and perhaps unavoidable in Cathoiicism---exactly the tactic used by atheist Mudcatters. As I said earlier.

Sorry, calling someone a "troll" is not usually seen as a logical counterargument by people who can think--perhaps this excludes some atheist Mudcatters.

You will actually have to do some research. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM

The favourite American pastime, suing the ass off your neighbour because don't like what he/she says, the way he/she looks, what sort of car he/she drives

Hank's entitled to his opinion, Monday Night Football's entitled to use any part and/or all of Hank's song, as long as royalties due are paid...that's what democracy is all about, the right to choose what we say or do, but to take on the responsibilities and results that come with the choices.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mudcat isn't that important that humankind will use it as a barometer in the future to view past society/societies.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:58 AM

Hank Jr does have the right to his opinion and the network had the right to drop his song as the opening to "Monday Night Football". The problem I have is just today I heard a promotion for "Monday Night Football" and they were still using his song, just without the lyrics. I hope they are paying him for his music... (or that he sues them and wins).

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:31 AM

No one asked me, but that's never stopped me before.

God isn't interested. So leave him/her/it out of the discussion. I could care less--although it confounds me how--what anyone's thoughts are about G/g/o/-d's real intentions were/are/will be to do with the conversations the deity gets dragged into.

I seldom get pissed off, but I allow myself to once in a blue moon. This is the day.

When Thurber wrote about the rabbits, when Mowat wrote about the wolves, when White wrote about the spiders, do any of you really think they wrote about the creatures for the sake of those creatures?

The stories were examinations of the human conscience, not examinations of the gods or the things the gods say. Take issue with ideas, not people. As animals living on this planet--one of the higher intelligenced animals that discovered technologies before our fellow denizens--we have demonstrated the ability to be brilliant, heartless and utterly stupid.

If the Mudcat should someday be the only remnant of our existence as a 'race', maybe we all oughta think about what we'll be leaving behind.

Thank you for allowing me to get that off my chest.

PS This is not addressed to John or anyone else. Quite the opposite. I have room in my life for people with different ideas. But fights ain't ideas, they're fights.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 11:25 PM

More evidence, Davies? How can you have more when you haven't given any yet?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: John P
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:54 PM

BTNG: you don't agree with his view point, John P, is that why he's a troll?

No, he's a troll because he makes the same "atheists are bad" statement in every thread that he can possibly shoehorn it in to. Because he's been proved wrong dozens of times and still keeps saying the same dumb thing over and over and over and over in an attempt to start an argument on the subject. He denigrates people who disagree with him. That's being a troll.

Just in case you don't get the other side of that, there are lots of viewpoints that I disagree with. I don't call the writers trolls because of that.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:09 PM

I speak for what's right or wrong, not because some damned political machine or political idiot tells me to. If you can't deal with that then it's you who has the problem, not me

Now there's the question. Are part of the problem or part of the answer...? hmmmmm?

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:40 PM

Thanks for proving my point... in your own words.

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:31 PM

Oh and my views, I stick to the middle of the road, it annoys both the right and, particularly, the left...

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM

you're predictable, gnu, both in your reponses and your political views (which, on top of everything else, are dubious at best)

Subject: RE: Hank Jr's Hitler remark - censorship?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 09:19 PM

Like I said before... you are a very poor troll.