BS: List the reasons people disagree

Subject: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:00 AM

If possible in a word or phrase, just to get the essence of the idea.

Conflicting interests to promote or defend

Being uninformed.

Different psychology.

Cognitive dissonance.[Aka 'not allowing myself to see etc.]

In thrall to popular stereotypes or concepts.

Inability to read what the other has actually said.

Lack of empathy.



Hopefully [sic] there are others.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:34 AM

Geeziz....Dumb list......I disagree with all of them......go fuck yourself!!!!


Spaw --- had to be said.............

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:42 AM

List it yourself. I have better things to do.


File that under "It's not my job."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:57 AM

Refusal to consider that he/she might be wrong.
Unlawful possession of a shovel, and the concommitant inability to stop using it, when in the shit.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:11 AM

They didn't bother to call ME to get the *truth*.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:17 AM

"List the reasons people disagree"

Because if you treat a cold it will last seven days, and if you don't treat a cold it will last half a fortnight.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:11 PM

Sorry Bruce, my mistake, you're wrong!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

Disagreeing does not start arguments. People start arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:34 PM

"People start arguments."

And arguing is not **necessarily** bad and/or contentious. I always try to debate an idea, not a personality.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:37 PM

Presumably people get into arguments because they disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM

Because the intent is not to discuss, but to give a sermon.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:48 PM

I don't understand an argument and a debate to be the same thing.

"people get into arguments because they disagree."

I do not believe this to be the usual case. Sure there is a difference of opinion, but that is almost never the reason for an argument.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:03 PM

Because there are people in the world like the poster above.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:20 PM

Thank you for so eloquently illustrating my point.

Obviously the argument that unregistered Guest,Bluesman is trying to start here has nothing to do with a disagreement. It is a personal attack. Note that he does not criticize the post, but the poster. His problem is not with what I am saying but with my very existence.

I guess one could say that the disagreement would be that he thinks that I should not exist and that I would presumably argue that I should exist. At the very least, this should qualify as an existential argument.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM

Because of the "fuck you, if you have a different opinion" attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Low blood sugar,
Headaches from cellphones
Trouble at the office
Trouble at home
Not enough sex
Not enough prayer
Too much prayer
Because we have more in common with chimps than bonobos

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM

Hemmoroid flare-up.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:02 PM

Genetics

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:07 PM

But, I don't know you and you don't know me
I mean I think I know we're bound to disagree
So, I still don't know you, you still don't know me
But, now we both agree that we disagree

Cause, that's the one thing in common we've got, you see
It's that we both disagree
So, between us we can double our profits, you see
Because we both disagree

DISAGREEMENT by CHUMBAWAMBA

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM

Jack

Just to go back to your beginning

Jack the Sailor - PM
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 12:28 PM

"Disagreeing does not start arguments."

I wasn't saying they do. I wasn't interested in how anything starts.

I was asking what sorts of things lie behind the disagreement, argument or debate.

I'm still puzzling over some of the reasons various people have given so far as reasons for disagreements.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

"Sorry Bruce, my mistake, you're wrong!"

Crank it, John. Just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:45 PM

because we have convictions that others oppose[ to a lesser to greater extent].

a shame that it so often turns into a slanging match.
i think this occurs when one side begins abuse/personal attacks,but sometimes because a strong but never-the-less civil position is taken personally by the alternative position who then react as though they were actually abused by the other.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Here's to you
And here's to me
And if, by chance, we disagree,
Fuck you
Here's to me.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM

All the world's mad g, except for you and me, and sometimes I'm not sure about you!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:20 PM

Hmmm. I was being a little tongue in cheek as I thought you were.

But taking it very seriously, here goes..

These are generally accepted definitions of "disagree"
    Have or express a different opinion.
    Disapprove of.

Obviously "having different opinion." opinion is not an issue.
It is the expression of such an opinion that is of interest. Or worse still, the expression of disapproval.

If someone expresses a different opinion from the first and no one answers, then again, it is of little interest, if the holder of the original opinion says thank you kindly for the feed back, or less likely, changes their own opinion to match the second, or less likely still talks back and forth with the second until they both come to understand the other and agree to disagree, then we have a discussion.

If one or both take offense and "defend" themselves aggressively we have an argument.

Taking the above definitions as a starting point, and looking at your list, I see some reasons why people would have a difference of opinion. I see reasons why people would express a difference of opinion and in the case of "lack of empathy" I see, perhaps a reason why someone express disapproval.

Obviously the reasons that two or more persons might have a genuine difference of opinion are myriad but I this it all boils down to three things.

Column A
1. Differences in data; People have access to different information.
2. Differences in filters; People filter information through different paradigms for example religion, education, prejudice.
3. Differences in processing; Depending on age, damage and other factors not all human brains process the same way. Differences in empathy can be included here.

The reasons for a disagreement to turn into an argument are basically psychological. Some would say that it has to do with ego, but I think it is more complicated than that. Some of the reasons I would put forth.

Column B

The desire to communicate.
The desire to prosthelytize.
The desire to dominate
monkey reflex
mischief

I may have missed something, I am just now formulating this idea, but I doubt that you can find a disagreement which has been expressed, which I would call, for arguments sake, an argument, that cannot be fully accounted for by factors from column's A & B.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

Just, just, just, because! OK?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

There is an undercurrent of attitude, if not explicit then implied, that 'argument' must mean contentious and combative...etc...

It IS often true, but I wish people could think about the possibility of arguing without rancor.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

My last post was in response to autolycus.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:27 PM

arguing without rancor.

Bill, I would call that discussion.

Though there is obviously a blurry line between "heated discussion" and argument.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:32 PM

I just looked up the definition. Obviously Bill is using definition 1. and I am using 2.

This can be considered an example of what I called "filters" above.

For the sake of clarity please substitute the word "quarrel" for "argument" in all of my previous statements on this thread.


a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate.
b. A quarrel; a dispute.
c. Archaic A reason or matter for dispute or contention: "sheath'd their swords for lack of argument" (Shakespeare).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:49 PM

Ok...agreed. Quarrel, even I interpret as rancorous.

(being an ex-philosopher, I often used 'argument' in the logical form, meaning simply a laying out of a position in a formal way. That use has stuck with me,)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

Yes, obviously that is the filter of your education vs mine, I learned the word when my mother would tell my sister and me to "stop arguing."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 04:38 PM

Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not).

Occasionally, they take this "slight" from thread to thread.



""Fingers on their triggers, knee-deep in gore""

Roland The Headless Thompson Gunner, Warren Zevon

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:01 PM

"Column A
"1. Differences in data; People have access to different information.
"2. Differences in filters; People filter information through different paradigms for example religion, education, prejudice.
"3. Differences in processing; Depending on age, damage and other factors not all human brains process the same way. Differences in empathy can be included here."

That an interesting and neat summary of reasons for disagreement.

Of the recent post with a.,b. and.c., it is

"a. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate."

that especially interests me, of which the above is neat.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM

No!


(that is in response to the thread title)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:26 PM

Btw, there is another line of thought going thru this thread, of which ed's post is an example.

"Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not)."

That is the thought about rancour and quarreling and pure personality clash.

It is an aspect of the discussion that I, for one, am not interested in for the purposes of this thread.

I have my hands full digesting the answrs which address the thread header directly.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:30 PM

There are a vast number of reasons people disagree. One could spend hours or even days listing them...but I'm not going to. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:44 PM

1.One of them forgot to take their meds
2.Posting drunk

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:46 PM

"We got a failure to communicate here."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:47 PM

autolycus post is a good example of why, and at sometimes people tend to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 05:56 PM

8,838,117!

Oh. Wait. I thought you was askin' fer the number of reasons people disagree, eh?

People disagree with me becoz they are flipheads! And becoz they are wrong!

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:21 PM

Seriously, I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 07:43 PM

"I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe."

The filter of socialization?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:01 PM

>>>>Btw, there is another line of thought going thru this thread, of which ed's post is an example.

"Some folks have hair triggers, and respond agressively and inappropriately to what they see as disrespect (valid or not)."

That is the thought about rancour and quarreling and pure personality clash.

It is an aspect of the discussion that I, for one, am not interested in for the purposes of this thread.

I have my hands full digesting the answrs which address the thread header directly. <<<

I think that pretty much every response on this thread addresses the header directly.
The differences derive from the definitions of the word disagree.   

1. Have or express a different opinion.
2.    Disapprove of.

You were looking for one of the options in 1. Have a different opinion.
While Ed and most of the rest of us were answering in terms of the question referring to either Express and different opinion of Disapprove of.

It goes to reason A 1. different data.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Janie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 09:32 PM

If I understand what you are inquiring about, autolycus, I think your first item is a biggy - conflicting interests to promote or defend.

Where it really gets interesting and complex is the process of each individual in defining their "interest." Most people, (I hope) often disagree with themselves and are aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:16 PM

Jim Dixon - "Seriously, I think most people arrive at their opinions by first deciding who the good guys are, and then believing whatever the good guys believe."

BINGO!!!!!!!!! Jim, you are so right. Well said! That is the general situation that has been bedeviling most of humanity ever since they dreamed up politics, tribal identities, religion, and culture. They think they know who "the good guys" are, by working from preconceived assumptions based on simplistic notions of some kind of supposed outer identity...and they believe everything they are told by those supposed "good guys". They also look for "bad guys" to blame everything on, condemn, and have wars with. This makes life somewhat dangerous if you are a human being, specially if you're living in the wrong geographical location at the wrong time.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:31 PM

Janie also has and excellent point. If I may add to it I would say, that many people don't know their own interests, but in spite of that, they sometimes quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:53 PM

Well, they may think they know their interests...but that doesn't mean they really do.

There are so many reasons for people to quarrel that if I had a penny for every single one, I could afford to buy Manhattan.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:15 AM

But--to decide who the Good Guys are, you must first have a concept of what constitutes the Good.

WHY are the Good Guys Good?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:56 AM

Well, to begin with, the people who take care of you would be the good guys. That would be your parents. Most people have loving parents, and they trust them. Then your parents tell you who the other good guys are. High on the list are the leaders of whatever religion or political party they belong to.

Of course, some of us have parents that we can't fully trust, so it gets complicated....

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 01:16 AM

I think, Don, that in most cases everyone thinks pretty much the same thing about their "good guys" in general terms...but not in specific terms of outer labels and outer political issues...just in general terms.

In other words, they think that their "good guys" are dedicated to truth, patriotism, loyalty, courage, duty, honor, honesty, freedom, and all such good stuff.

The people they are fighting ("the bad guys") think all that stuff about their own "good guys" too. Both sides imagine that their own "good guys" are fighting for every kind of good thing, and that the enemy is opposing every kind of good thing.

This is usually quite naive on the part of both sides, although it may also be partly true on both sides...and to differing degrees.

WWII's Germans, for instance, mostly felt that they were fighting for truth, justice, freedom, courage, duty, honor, honesty, patriotism, civilization, etc. That's what their leaders told them!

And the Allied leaders told the Allied troops the same kind of things.

I'm not saying both sides were morally equivalent! They certainly were not. But I think they were both utterly sure that they were standing up for the "good" values against the "evil" values.

In that case, the Germans were far more completely misled than those who were fighting against them, that's all, because they were under a worse system for the most part (Stalinism excepted...I think it was just as bad as Naziism).

People are easily fooled by their own propaganda and culture. They always think they're fighting for the "good" against the "bad" no matter which side they are fighting on.

Didn't the Lakota think they were fighting for the "good"? Didn't Custer's men think the same thing? Each seeing it from their own view, it made sense. But from the enemy's view, it didn't.

In a similar way, the eagle that siezes the fish thinks he's doing a very good thing. The fish thinks he's doing a very bad thing, but if the fish were catching a fly, then the fish would think he was doing a very good thing, wouldn't he? And what would the fly think?

In practical terms...in the real experience of life...the "good guys" are GOOD because we think they are, based on our culture, our history, our politics, and our entire background and memory.

If we are clear-headed enough to think beyond our culture, our history, our politics, and our entire background...THEN we are able to see through propaganda to a higher truth...and THEN we CAN determine who is doing good, who is doing evil, and who is just doing something that's somewhere in between those extremes.

How many people are clearheaded enough to think beyond their culture, their history, their politics, their race, their gender, and their entire personal background? To put it another way: how many people are completely unbiased and unprejudiced, and therefore capable of rendering a completely fair judgement on another's actions?

And that's why someone once said: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

If people had the wisdom to do that, to behave that honestly, I predict that very few stones would ever be cast at anyone. And we'd have no wars. And no quarrels either.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 02:16 AM

I wasn't really asking because I don't know, Little Hawk. I'll have more to say on this subject, but it's past my bedtime right now. Tomorrow.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Monique
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:39 AM

Can't we all in all sum it up by "like me = good" "not like me = bad"?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 04:51 AM

Jani said,

" Where it really gets interesting and complex is the process of each individual in defining their "interest." Most people, (I hope) often disagree with themselves and are aware of it."

To enlarge on that, each individual may or may difine their interests consciously. It may be that they have their position as a consequence of upbringing whereby their interest isn't an interest at all, but, for them, more like the air they breathe, i.e. something just given as a 'fact of life'.

Apart from all that, their interest can be arrived at thru a mixture of some of the reasons I originally suggested, like a particular psychology and a lack of knowledge.


personally, Jack, I simply do not see disagree and disapprove as synonyms.

I can certainly see that people disrespect or experience disrespect. In my book, that is in a somewhat different realm from disagreement.

Some may wish to blur the lines between disagree and disapprove or disrespect. I am one wanting to keep the distinction, and make it clearer.



What has prompted me to start this thread is a very long-standing one of wanting to stand back from any argument, especially the longest-riunning ones, to get a grip on what is really going on.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 05:56 AM

It is just individuality to have ones own thought, on a planet this size it is obvious that not everyone is going to agree on absolutely everything.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 06:25 AM

>>personally, Jack, I simply do not see disagree and disapprove as synonyms.<<

I didn't make that up I got it from an online dictionary. Yesterday. You may not see it but it is. Clearly there are three subtly different meanings for the word. If you want to have a discussion with someone about the word "disagree". Their definition of the word is just as valid as yours.

>>Some may wish to blur the lines between disagree and disapprove or disrespect. I am one wanting to keep the distinction, and make it clearer.<<

I don't think it is a question about what "some may wish" It is a question about a generally accepted meaning of the word. I respect that you want to discuss the aspects of one specific definition. ie "having a different opinion" But arguing (Bill D's definition) that there is only one definition, if that is what you are doing, could quite possibly lead to the other two definitions. Which are expressing a difference of opinion and/or disapproval.

Please pardon me. I just had some fun with what you said. I will return to serious discussion now.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM

LH, On a broader sense most wars and military conflicts involve a disagreement of some form, if one considers that those involved have different perspectives and interests (such as personal gain). The cause of the conflict may be very different from what is believed by, or sold to, the troops and citizens on either side.

The crusades are an interesting example of these complexities. Those involved set aside many of their core religious values (that seemed to be importnat to them) to solve a disagrement over which religion should rule an area. That seems puzzling to me. However, one should never rule out that economic gain is not somewhere underneath such conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

Because people are not all the same - we have different experiences, different ways of ordering priorities and seeing the world.

The more relevant question is why people treat disagreement as a reason to quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 09:54 AM

More relevant to what?

It would certainly make an interesting thread of its own.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:42 AM

People disagree because they refuse to listen to my, the voice of truth and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 11:51 AM

"What has prompted me to start this thread is a very long-standing one of wanting to stand back from any argument, especially the longest-riunning ones, to get a grip on what is really going on."

Yes. I think that's a very good idea, autolycus. People tend to get themselves emotionally entangled in an argument/quarrel/disagreement and it takes them over, and they lose track of what's really going on. To stand back from it can calm the mind and allow a person to sort of re-calibrate their thoughts and find their way out of the emotional briar patch that they got stuck in, in the heat of the moment.

Sometimes it's best to say nothing. And wait.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 11 - 12:26 PM

Just think, Rap, how transformed Amos's life would be by now, had he chosen to listen to yours, the voice of truth and reason. ;-) Instead, he is haunting Starbucks and sublimating his stress in outrageous SoCal bafflegab, and making secret trips down to Mexico for reasons best left unsaid.

(That's a joke, people. Refer to the MOABS thread for background and explanation. Read at least 1,000 of the posts that fly back and forth between Amos and Rapparee on that thread and all will become crystal clear.)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:45 AM

Rapp

You, and others with the same thought, remind me of this story.

Two people who were arguing finally decided to go to the guru.

One said, "I think this."

The guru said, "You're right."

The other said, "But I think that."

The guru said, "You're right."

The first said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. We can't both be right."

And the guru said, "You're right."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:20 AM

Cos the other bloke has a beard

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:00 AM

Genuine tragedies in the world are not conflicts between right and wrong. They are conflicts between two rights. ~Georg Hegel

No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place. ~Zen

The only Zen you can find on the tops of mountains is the Zen you bring up there. ~Robert M. Pirsig

Almost every wise saying has an opposite one, no less wise, to balance it. ~Santayana, Essays

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 01:55 PM

Fwiw, I've looked for that Hegel quote in the 25 or so best of my dictionaries of quotations, including one devoted to philosophy and ging back over 70 years,without finding it.

Online, it is alternatively given to the German dramatist C.F.Hebbel.In either case, the source is never given.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Greg B
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:04 PM

I think I'd rather go next door for "being hit on the head lessons."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 04:15 PM

anyone who disagrees with me is not people

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:02 PM

It's interesting, if not actually worrying, the numbers of people [and it's presumably world-wide] who say, in effect, "I am right,anyone who disagrees with me is therefore wrong, and that's that." [unless people are joking, of course.]

I mean, if one person says that, for a moment you might run with that.

But now imagine being a fly-on-the-wall in a room of a dozen people sitting in a circle, and ALL of them saying that same sentence. Alsao imagine they are saying it about a subject on which you are quite ignorant and have no opinion.

Wouldn't that situation looked very odd or flawed or confusing or something?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 07:02 PM

People disagree because they're all too human.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 07:27 PM

"I am right,anyone who disagrees with me is therefore wrong, and that's that."

I think people who actually say that are almost always mocking someone. Usually the mockee is the mocker's father.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:09 PM

"List the reasons people disagree"

No.

You wouldn't agree with my postulates.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:03 AM

gnu

I'm seeking to agree with everybody but look at why we don't/can't/won't.

Naturally nobody has to do anything.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:04 AM

That should have read

I'm not seeking to agree with everybody but look at why we don't/can't/won't.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:46 AM

Tere is only one answer really, and all of the above boil down to that one.

Because each (based upon what he/she knows, or thinks he/she knows) believes that the other is wrong and he/she is right.

It's as basic as that, and really supremely unimportant, so long as each accepts the other's right to hold an opposite opinion.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:48 AM

AND they can compromise on the action needed (if any).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:43 AM

Because people get confused. Some people use money, and love their friends and family, while the others love money and use their friends and family!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:45 AM

Don T.

Part of my point is, let me put it this way; if each person thinks they are right, then there's not much point in discussion beyond simply announcing one's position.

Doesn't discussion and debate assume that someone/ everyone is going, at ome point, to reconsider their own position in the light of what others say?

To say otherwise seems to me to be saying none of us have anything to learn from others.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:57 AM

""if each person thinks they are right, then there's not much point in discussion beyond simply announcing one's position.""

People have said that many times, in MC, for example. Regardless, people still post and answer each other in pointless argument. This leads to much of the discord. It seems the desire to be right, win, and be seen right is very strong. Also, the desire to "put the other person in their place", is also strong. This is encouraged by similar minded people weighing in on one side or the other. The religious posts, and middle east threads, where strong personal views
exist are good examples.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 07:27 AM

When I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:39 AM

Ed.T

Quite. It's those sorts of scenarios that are the background to the thread. And reasons for it.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 12:04 PM

As many have stated before, it is reasonable that people disagree.
It is the reaction to disagreement that is puzzling.

I suspect it is sometimes the nature of the topic. Othertimes it may be the tone the disagreement takes, rather than the nature of the discussion(from either or both sides).

It is interesting to see people say they are "walking away from a pointless disagreement,when they are just taking time to recharge and return to it.

People seem to react differently to different situations. I suspect that "road rage" is a good example of normally reasonable people acting unreasonably, and often out or charactor as to other aspects of their lives.

I often wonder:
If somewhat reasonable and logical people on Mudcat (a kind of mild natured, middle aged, and music loving lot)can't come to some type of agreement on the Israel-Palistinian issue, (without significant emotion and discord), what hope can those have who are directly and deeply involved have in reaching an agreement (outside of being forced into one)?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 01:51 PM

""Don T.

Part of my point is, let me put it this way; if each person thinks they are right, then there's not much point in discussion beyond simply announcing one's position.

Doesn't discussion and debate assume that someone/ everyone is going, at ome point, to reconsider their own position in the light of what others say?

To say otherwise seems to me to be saying none of us have anything to learn from others.""

I would say that discussion and debate take place before disagreement and that they take place in the hope (not assumption) that a change of position is possible.

You can't disagree with anyone, on any specific subject, until you know what that person's position is, and you find that out by discussion, and try to reach a consensus by debate.

Any other sequence is neither discussion, debate nor disagreement.

The logical result is that disagreement is, or should be, an agreement to differ.

The problem is that human nature often supervenes, and what follows is an unpleasant, unedifying verbal brawl in which each side attempts to bludgeon the other into submission by any means, fair or foul.

That is not discussion or debate, nor is it IMHO disagreement

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:10 PM

there aint no good guys, there aint no bad guys

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:10 PM

On your last para there, some but not all of my original suggestions can apply to both mudcatters and the I/P dispute. I've added one of John MacKenzie's.

Being uninformed.

Different psychology.

Cognitive dissonance.[Aka 'not allowing myself to see etc.]

Lack of empathy.

Refusal to consider that he/she might be wrong



One other I mentioned 'conflicting interests' may be applicable to mudcatters in far-from-obvious ways, whereas it's fundamental in the Near East problem.


Further there is a clear conflict of interests from the following

"As many have stated before, it is reasonable that people disagree.
It is the reaction to disagreement that is puzzling."


Whether or not it is reasonable to have disagreement depends on the subject.

I don't think it's reasonable to dispute that we don't live on a flat disc.

And your interest is clearly on the reactions to disputes [in which i am also interested]. However, I have a greater interest in what lies behind disputes.

As an example of a dispute where identifying the cause led to a resolution:-

There was once a disagreement at the U.N. between the American and Soviet delegates, but curiously, it wasn't clear what the problem was. Eventually, for whatever reason, they called in a linguistics expert.

He identified the cause of the dispute in one simple fact. Both delegates were using the same phrase, 'self-expanding economy', but with conflicting attitudes.

For the American, the phrase was obvious and uncontroversial and a fact of life'; for the Soviet, the phrase had no meaning because such an economy was impossible.

End of puzzlement. Someone had discovered what the 'reason for the disagreement' [copyright application pending :-) ] actually was.

Weirdly, I prefer interesting discussion to pointless argument.[Even pointful argument is better.] I'm funny like that.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM

Cognitive dissonance.

Such as saying that one wants to discuss why people form different opinions but actually discussing why they quarrel?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:33 PM

For myself, I'm unclear whether that's c.d. or differing interests.

Come to think of it, why people form different opinions, why they disagree and why they quarrel are three different, albeit overlapping subjects.

Cognitive dissonance is, I thought, about how people, once they have formed a viewpoint/opinion/Gestalt/stance, cannot perceive things that would change or affect their viewpoint/etc.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:48 PM

""Whether or not it is reasonable to have disagreement depends on the subject.

I don't think it's reasonable to dispute that we don't live on a flat disc.""

The subject is clearly a factor, but, other factors include the position and perspective that each player brings to the discussion. WE can't forget that there was a point in time that it was quite resonable to dispute that we do not live on a flat disc.

In suspect people involved in disputes honostly feel their positions are quite reasonable (though others may disagree). The fact that an observer does not find personal perspectives and positions as reasonable does not factor into the dispute, nor contributes to resolving it.

I suspect differing interests (conflicting) and different perspectives (such as cultural, and historic) can lead to may disputes. A percieved lack of a respect can also contribute to disputes that remain unresolved. Where economic factors are involved, it makes the disagreement can be quite complex.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:53 PM

"Doesn't discussion and debate assume that someone/ everyone is going, at ome point, to reconsider their own position in the light of what others say?"

Hahahahahaaa... and that's sad... I have never encountered more of the opposite than in this here Café. Yes, it's sad, almost unbearable at times. Makes ya wanna reach out and smack em. I am sure that if people acted thusly in a 3D social setting they would get a smack eventually or simply be shunned. Of course, "don't feed the trolls" comes to mind but sometimes ya just gotta say "Fuck off asshole."... in a polite way, if possible. (Yeah, I know... I do it far too often.)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM

Ed

"I suspect people involved in disputes honestly feel their positions are quite reasonable"

What's frustrating when many of such people are unable or unwilling or both to set out their position reasonably.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:45 PM

Outside of the people who seem not to care, I suspect what seems "reasonable" to one person or group, may not seem as so to another person or group.

I found this article from the past interesting on how one would define reasonable:THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE REASONABLE MAN

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:48 PM

For a long time I thought people disagreed because they hold differing points of view based on differing priorities and life experiences. But I've got to say, now I'm starting to wonder if the main reason is simply that we need to. Humans as social creatures need to interact with each other. When we agree, that's kind of conversation stopper so there's not much opportunity to exercise our socialization genes.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Amos
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 11:22 PM

No communication
Enforced or inhibited communication
Misunderstood communication
False data
Incomplete data
Missing data including missing knowledge of probabilities and how things work
False sense of source
False sense of correct target
False sense of importance (because of false data, etc. or just personal neurosis of some kind), weighing things as more or less important than they are in the scheme of relationships
Other dramatization (acting out personal irrationality)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 07:03 AM

Ed

Does this comment from Sarah Palin, starting at o.38 start you as reasonable, or even coherent?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk8moOxzlGQ

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:14 AM

autolycus,

I am not sure if politics (and politicians) and reasonableness can, or should be, logically analysed. I don't think we have the time, or that it would serve a useful purpose? I know, reporters sometimes do that,(over and over. But, that just reinforces this assessment.


:)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 11:36 AM

I actually think that the primary reason people disagree...and then keep persisting in disagreeing...is that they are instinctively defending and boosting their own ego at the expense of some other ego. The ego is defensive in nature. It fears anything different from itself. It attempts to achieve dominance and to get attention. It attempts to win and make someone else lose. It attempts to be right and make someone else wrong.

The ego is that in you which says,

"I'm all alone here. I'm irrevocably separate from all that I see around me. Everything and everyone I see is one of three things:

1. a threat (I must defend myself against it)
2. an opportunity (to satisfy some desire of mine)
3. something that simply doesn't matter to me (so I'm not interested)"

The ego is the nasty little thing in your mind that sets you at odds with other people, your own life, and the world. It is the essential cause of all your distress, and of all your wars. It does not love, it desires, bargains, lies, cheats, evades, covers up, battles, and competes.

To overcome the ego is to find your true Self, and once you do that everything changes. Love conquers fear. The sense of separation is replaced by the sense of unity and shared values with others.

I'm not saying I've done that in its entirety. But I am certainly working on doing it, and one of the ways to do it is not to do the kneejerk typical ego reaction into "attack" mode which the ego is so fond of doing in order to momentarily strengthen itself.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 07:54 PM

List the reasons people disagree:

No.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 08:26 PM

I agree ~S~

Palin... haven't we established that she is gorgeously fuckable but a brain dead airhead? Need there be any more examples of same???

Although, I do enjoy looking at her with the mute button clicked. >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:06 PM

I wish to go on the record as "disagreeing" with gnu's last post. The whole package is important to me, and that includes the mind.
So, exclude "me" from the "we".

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:30 PM

gnu - Sarah Palin is undoubtedly attractive, and she's probably got some other worthy traits besides that. I hardly think she's a "brain dead airhead", but I do think that she grew up amongst a peer group who imparted to her a poorly informed and extremely deluded view of society, politics, and philosophy. Her understanding of how to organize a society most likely derives from her personal background. Her opinions, likewise, derive from the same.

If she'd been born in a Left-leaning family amongst people who thought socialism is a good thing, then she'd be out there defending those values, and the people here wouldn't be gleefully fixing their attention on her as their official "village-idiot-of-the-day".

They'd be making jokes about somebody else instead. ;-) Sarah Palin is merely convenient for we liberals and lefties, because she's so noticeable and so much fun to joke about.

Not that I'm saying she couldn't cause some major damage if she were elected president! I bet she could. But she'd just be the tip of the iceberg if she did, and there'd be massive financial interests behind her orchestrating events...and they'd be the real iceberg that sinks the ship of state.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:41 PM

Palin doesn't do anything for me.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: gnu
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 09:55 PM

She doesn't do anything for me either. Shame. She could do soooo much.

LH... oh please... she's as stunned as me arse.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 10:20 PM

Speaking of 'Palin' and an argument.......

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:35 AM

Okay, gnu...(grin)...just how stunned IS your arse?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:42 AM

I love that Monthy Python stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:34 AM

For the life of me, I can't argue with anything posted here. Does that make me terminally "agreeable?"

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 10:30 AM

You may have unwittingly attained a state of grace, saul. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:51 PM

People disagree with me cos they are wrong!

I know what it's like. I was wrong once too. I think it was back around 1968 or somethin' like that, but I don't remember exactly.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

I once had a boss who agreed with, and said yes to, everyone. While that seems positive, it wasn't. It was very confusing, and counterproductive for staff. After comparing notes on his conflicting "yes medssages", staff mostly ignored him, as he was seen as unreliable.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 04:41 PM

You meet the odd woman who says "yes" to everyone too. They are best avoided for the same reason...cos they are unreliable.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 29 Nov 11 - 03:36 AM

Ed

You wrote "Outside of the people who seem not to care, I suspect what seems "reasonable" to one person or group, may not seem as so to another person or group.


which led me to post the Palin piece.

You then wrote "I am not sure if politics (and politicians) and reasonableness can, or should be, logically analysed. I don't think we have the time, or that it would serve a useful purpose?"

I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analyses and examined for reasonableness. What and how politicians think is vital for all of us because what politicians do as a result of what and how they think impacts us all.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:05 AM

I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analyses and examined for reasonableness.

should have read

I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analysed and examined for reasonableness.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:14 PM

""I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analysed and examined for reasonableness.""

And signs of brain activity, though I sometimes think that this might be beyond the capacity of the most delicate detector.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 07:41 PM

""I am sure that politics and politicians absolutely must be analyses and examined for reasonableness""

Seems like a waste of time to me. My observation is that what they say publically when seeking votes has little connection to what they do when elected. You are the client, when votes are being sought, but that relationship ends once they are elected-at least until the next election

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM

Ed

What you say is true of all politicians to some degree. More in the case of some than others.

So how are we to decide which candidates we are more likely to agree with; or who we think are more likely to be up to the job?

If I was a relevant voter, and heard Palin being that unable to make a simple point in her mother tongue, there is no way I'd trust her with government. I'd think she doesn''t have the necessary level of abilities to be in high office.

This is not an anti-P. thing.I'm using Palin merely as representative of a level of ability and of competence.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:26 AM

There are a number of things to consider when comparing politicians.

Character

Intelligence

Their basic philosophy

Their past record

Their leadership ability

Their ability to work with others

Etc.

The trouble is, though, that politicians nowadays are fish swimming in badly polluted waters. What I mean is, huge financial forces have corrupted and taken over the political parties, the media, and the governments. Any politician of genuinely incorruptible character is going to find it very hard to act honestly within a thoroughly dishonest system that is all around him or her...and will probably not rise high in the pecking order. Or will be blocked by those around him or her.

If you don't play the game by its corrupt rules, how are you going to work your way up through the ranks of power?

Politics has become a game of salesmanship. The parties market a candidate like any other product is marketed, in order to make a sale to the public. That's why their promises when campaigning are seldom fullfilled once in office. It was just a sales job, not a genuine promise.

"Let the buyer beware."

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 08:35 AM

Ones age can have a lot to do with it, what I might have agreed/disagreed with back then might not be the case now. Lifes experiences and maturity changes the way we see things.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 10:10 AM

Age is interesting.

One of my original list was 'different psychology'

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:18 PM

Okay, let's go back to the thread title.

I think that the main reason people disagree is to strengthen their sense of their own identity. In stating how they differ in an opinion from someone else, they are once again defining who they are...and thus strengthening their sense of self. And their sense of "rightness". This requires someone else to be seen as "wrong", of course. And that leads to judgement and conflict (at one level or another). Hopefully, it will just be verbal conflict. Hopefully, it will remain reasonably polite.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 03:46 PM

At a local level, possibly what seems to be the most reasonable candidate likely is the best choice. But, (IMO) on a broader perspective, in a represenatative government (as it seems to exist today) your political choice is there to represent the party under whose banner they stand, not to represent you and you and your communities perspective. So, what they say does not correspond with what they will do.
It is likely wise to use the best of your intelligence, and your gut, to determine which of those courting your vote is the best choice. But, it's best to prepare yourself for a dissapointment, at least at some point.

That likely fits with the title. One reason is different circumstances creates different perspectives.

OK, now back to the reasons why people disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM

LH

I don't think opinions are essentially about ego for everybody.

In the same way, I distinguish between the person and their actions at times.

I have found it immensely frustrating discussing with people who think when I argue with something they say, that I'm attacking them as a person. I'm not. I'm just saying e.g. something they've said doesn't fir the facts; or is illogical.

I'm playing the board, not the person.

If someone says something that is, for example, incoherent, I can say so, and still hold them in the same regard as before as a person.

When any teacher points out errors to students, they don't [or shouldn't] think any less of the pupils.

Just because the other chooses to see their opinions as so them that to attack one is to criticise the other, it doesn't follow that if I criticise their view, that i'm criticising them.

Projection's terribly tricky.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 12:32 AM

"I have found it immensely frustrating discussing with people who think when I argue with something they say, that I'm attacking them as a person. I'm not. I'm just saying e.g. something they've said doesn't fir the facts; or is illogical."

Yeah! I've been frustrated by that too. I realize that ego isn't always the dominant factor in causing people to argue, but I think it is the dominant factor when they do what you're alluding to above and assume that disagreement about the subject under discussion is a personal attack on them.

Their sense of identity is so strongly linked TO their various beliefs and opinions that if you disagree with their belief or opinion, then their sense of identity seems (to them) to be threatened, and they rush to defend it. This is the primary thing, I think, which has triggered a great many religions wars throughout history. (as well as the usual aim of war: material gain).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:00 AM

My God autolycus, what a steaming heaping pile of crap that was. It was completely nonsensical. What do you mean projection? Are you a psychologist? Please back this up with diplomas and citations of the literature.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 01:26 AM

Um...yeah...

And get them notarized too?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 02:30 AM

Peer reviewed!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Dec 11 - 07:56 AM

"within its elegant simplicity lies a complex set of issues to address.... and the parties involved can become an elusive concept to define."
Conflict (disagreement ) in the workplace

I found the above site informative. It deals with one of the frequent areas where disagreements and conflict evolve, the workplace.


autolycus

It may be comforting to consider oneself somewhat "above contributing to a disagreement". However, at times, through our actions, (logicaly presented or not) we may be contributing to the evolution of a disagrement, but are merely unaware of our contribution? It seems established that people do take many disagreements personally. So, is it not wise to avoid frustration by being alert/sensetive to this and adjust the discussion tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 06:14 AM

Ed

To repeat, with one amendment for clarity

"Just because the other chooses to see their opinions as so them that to attack one is to criticise the other, it doesn't follow that if I criticise their view, that I AM criticising them."

Put that another way, if a person chooses to take a disagreement personally, it doesn't follow that that was the intention of the other. Those who take things personally might like to take that thought on board and consider it.


Jack

Wow, pretty fierce response to a mere allusion to projection.

I'm a Gestalt therapist [rtd.] I have seen projection and its denial at work experientially. In my training as a therapist, we were obliged to know about projection, to see how each of us did it unknowingly. We weren't, of course, very willing to accept what we were doing any such thing[despite having CHOSEN to do the course, something most people don't choose]. Any more than we were willing vis-a-vis other forms of manipulation of the self. We were also highly indignant about any such suggestions.

Thus, incidentally, we didn't merely learn about it theoretically or observe it in others; we had to look at ourselves. The rest of the group as well as the trainers ensured we couldn't bypass such matters.

Perhaps you can specify anything of your expertise [certificates, testimonials not required :-)] in saying what you did rather vaguely and intemperately.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:11 AM

autolycus

I understand what you are saying, put either way. H

However,a fruitful conflict-free discussion requires agreed upon debating rules (which rarely occur) and "good intentions" on both sides throughout the discussion. When something occurs to break thhe discusssion down, emotion can emerge from either, or both sides that contributes to a breakdown in the discussion, postering and eventual disagreement. For example in a discussion, one could react by concluding the other is illogical, or rude. In the same example, the other person may conclude that the other is inflexable or a "know it all" . Both conclusions come from the same emotion, and failure to accurately analyse what actually occured in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 07:48 AM

I just wondered if you would take it personally if I attacked what you are saying and not you.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:03 AM

Jack

Oh I see. We've departed debate for manipulative experimentation.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:13 AM

Oooooo After passing the test... You get testy!

Nah! I'm just farting around.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 08:28 AM

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 10:08 AM

An observation is a discussion most often degenerates into a disagreement when one or more participant pojects (knowingly or not) that they (or their viewpoints) are superior, act in a condescending manner, or are impolite.

Different participants may see indicators of these from a different perspective.

Any thoughts on this observation?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:07 AM

Considering how some obsessive and uncompromisingly disagreeable mudcat 'personas'
display character traits and behavioural patterns
that are so reminiscent of very difficult folk we occasionally encounter in the real outside world..

We should be more alert for signs of Undiagnosed Aspergers Syndrome or Sociopathic Personality Disorder...????

Also we should be aware and sympathetic towards inevitable physiological effects of the ageing process
manifesting in increasing antagonism & belligerence in many individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 11:24 AM

..not forgetting the adverse side effects of common prescription medications,
in isolation or in combination with alcohol and/or popular illegal narcotics & stimulants...

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:18 PM

When people who seem to be closed-minded, (or contrary-minded) are encountered, a common reaction is to challenge that person's position, opinion, or belief. If the challenge is unsuccessful, why be frustrated with that person and their different opinion?
Why not just move on, rather than moving it up to a dispute, with all the associated discourse?

People are free to disagree, and have different opinions, and it most often has little impact on another person.

Why is there an overwhelming need to convince anyone of anything? Could it be the need to be right? Is real source of the frustration with your ego, not with the other person, or what you see as an incorrect belief?

Why not just reply, "You could be right", and move on? After all, from the other person's perspective, they are also right. What does it matter to you if they hold different opinions or beliefs, on what is right?

A good question to ask is, "What is likelihood that anything I say will have any impact on the other persons opinion?" If the answer is none,or extremely low, why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 12:58 PM

Indeed.

I usually talk about a subject of debate because the subject itself interests me...and perhaps moves me emotionally as well. I certainly don't talk about it in order to get into fights with other people, and I'm rather taken aback when someone else decides they want to fight with me about it.

As you say, Ed, 'Why not just reply, "You could be right", and move on?' Seems like a pretty good way to defuse the situation.

punkfolkrocker - You're right about "the ageing process
manifesting in increasing antagonism & belligerence in many individuals". It's the "crabby old git" syndrome! ;-D Every civilization that ever existed has taken note of it in one way or another. Then you have the "mouthy young jerk" syndrome at the other extreme...one that is easily found in the Comments section under many Youtube videos...even less polite than the "crabby old git", the Mouthy Young Jerk is fond of hurling foul language, demeaning the other person's sexual organs, etc... While the Crabby Old Git is often embittered by a gradual decline in physical abilities and bodily energy, the Mouthy Young Jerk is burdened by an excessive amount of energy with no available outlet. In short: he's probably sexually frustrated and feels powerless. His reaction to that is to seek a momentary (and illusory) sense of power by viciously denigrating other people, and he knows he can do it safely by way of the Internet, so he goes to ridiculous extremes of toxic behaviour. A confrontation between 2 mutually opposed Mouthy Young Jerks can go on almost indefinitely and consume large amounts of bandwidth. So too, a confrontation between 2 mutually opposed Crabby Old Gits. If all these hostile energies could instead be harnessed to provide electrical power to the world, it might cure our dependence on oil!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 11 - 01:26 PM

Talkboards woiuld get very thin if we constantly simply agreed to differ. I'm happy to say that once differences are explored; not so much as a replacement for the debate.

Some of the reasons I gave originally for disagreement need to be explored.

An obvious and common one is lack of information or straight misinformation. Who is going to agree to differ you think uninformerd/misinformed?

Others include illogicality, failing to understand what the other has said or meant, and a dangerous view, directly or by implication. Same as in last sentence; e.g. if you think the other is illogical, are you really going to be happy to differ?

And where something like cognitive dissonance comes into play, there can be a real stale-mate/endless debating loops.

The time I mentioned 'frustration' was with regard to arguing with people who take things personally when that was not in the intention. I don't, of course, see that as a problem of my ego.

I do find that periodically I have withdrawn from discussion feeling a need to get a perspective on things. Sometimes in doing that that I have been in error. When that has happened [on other boards] i have said so.

I say again, a reading of e.g. Gentlemen's Agreement is a good corrective to not challenging what should be challenged.

Debates, say here, can often go on because one or the other cannot grasp something or other. Or because the subject or point is important. And we don't have an ultimate judge to sort out what is going on.

It can also take a while, if ever, for one or both sides to see that the other is arguing with their own picture of the other rather than the real other.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:54 AM

This will come out as from Guest, like the previous post [mine] because all of a sudden the site does not know me and there does not seem to be anywhere to log back in.

Please help

Autolycus

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:58 AM

Sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 12:37 PM

I don't agree about crabby "old" gits.
I'm not nearly as angry and crabbit as I used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 01:35 PM

Disagreement is essential to a functioning democracy. One important reason for disagreement is that certain elements of a proposition might not ring true whereas
maybe the basic idea has merit.

I don't think we have to be disagreeable people to disagree about ideas, even as though
there are those operative behaviors in society.

One might disagree through civil disobedience, rational discourse and challenge though this doesn't have to be acrimonious, the solving of differences more effective when they're not.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 09:11 PM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:26 AM

Stringsinger

What you say is true when the disagreement is rational [or at least reasonable].

Perhaps it becomes more heated when the disagreemenrt is elsewhere, e.g. at the psychological or defence-of-an-interest level.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:52 AM

Perhaps we should narrow this down a bit and discuss the reasons people disagree with Don Cherry (the Canadian hockey commentator).

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 07:20 AM

A friend of mine worked at a customer service unit and dealt with complaints. I asked if the job fustrated her, and she replied "at first, but not now." What interested me was what had changed her perspective, so I asked.

""Well, after being frustrated with dealing with some really angry people,I eventually realized that they were not angry with me, but with a situation," she said.   Secondly, she added, most angry people did not seem angry about the current situation, but with what they preceived to be the situation, mostly from past bad experience. I realized that they were bringing baggage forward from the past, and fears and frustration from past experiences, she concluded.

So, with that in mind, I propose that the essesence of some, or possible many, disagreements are seeded in past experiences and situations, some unresolved and most unpleasent, not with the core of the issue, or the disagreement at hand.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM

>>>Perhaps it becomes more heated when the disagreemenrt is elsewhere, e.g. at the psychological or defence-of-an-interest level. <<<

When you are carrying a hammer you see nails everywhere. None of them are quite flush, everything needs a tap or two.

I really think that you are over analyzing this. You can list these reasons until you have filled every hard drive in the galaxy with bits and bytes. But since neither you nor anyone else can diagnose psychological conditions or discern hidden motivations from an Internet quarrel, the reasons for disagreement of each and every participant in each and every Internet quarrel will simply be a Schrodingers cat in a box which, unless you meet with the quarreler and examine them in person, you will never be able to open. That is unless they tell you their reasons, but even then. Its just dot's on a screen. How will you know you are not being toyed with?

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:20 AM

.. all we can ever do is rely on our own personal experience and judgement
to evaluate the extent to which we want to engage in a forum row
for our own purposes & amusement;
until we either get bored,
or just too exasperated by petty wilful stupidity and provocation to be bothered to continue...

I'd start to get worried if I ever develop an all consuming abject obsession to continue disagreeing
to the bitter end
just in order to try to get the last word..

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:31 AM

Yes, that would be bad. If it were to happen to you. I hope you keep an eye on yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 09:39 AM

now I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it, but......

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 10:09 AM

No not for the sake of it!!! Never!!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 01:17 PM

Perish the thought!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 03:30 PM

"I really think that you are over analyzing this."

I'm not seeking to get to the absolute bottom. I think simply that it's useful to be bearing in mind possible reasons for disagreements. If nothing else, such a stance is a way out of arguments that just seem to go round in circles or get repeated ad nauseum.

So the thread was a provocation to others to think a bit about what might really be going on.

"How will you know you are not being toyed with? "

Somewtimes difficult to tell. Each of us has to decide if and when that's happening. At least some trolls get identified reasonably quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:20 PM

I disagree only when my wife tells me to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:38 PM

"So the thread was a provocation to others to think a bit about what might really be going on."

Are you sure you want to be bringing up psychology then? I don't think I have ever seen a thread when an individual's psychological motivations were mentions that did not increase the intensity of the quarrel.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:36 AM

As a therapist [rtd.], the psychological side is interesting to me, is highly potent, and may well be behind many disagreements.

All I mean is, just bear in mind the possibility that what may be behind your disagreement is that some involved may have a psychological block [or an 'interest=to=defend' block] which common sense reasonable discourse may be unable to deal with.

For example, see Cognitive Dissonance on Wiki.

Thus what's soooo obvious to one may not get on the dial of another.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 01:53 PM

M:   Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A:   I told you once.
M:   No you haven't.
A:   Yes I have.
M:   When?
A:    Just now.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A:   I did!
M: You didn't!
A:   I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A:   Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A:   Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A:   Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A:   Yes I did.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M:   No you didn't.
A:   Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A:   Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A:   Yes it is.
M:   No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A:   No it isn't.
M: It is!
A:   It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A:   I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A:   No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A:   Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A:   No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A:   No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A:   It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A:   No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A:   Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A:   Yes it is!

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

Classic Python.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: GUEST,guest donuel
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:18 PM

Same reason as all disagreements.
Two or more people see the same situation from two distinctly different points of view/profit/advantage/convenience/benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: List the reasons people disagree
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 04:58 PM

A Poet and a Philosopher