BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'

Subject: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 10:04 PM

BEYOND OBAMACARE
By Steven Rattner
Published: September 16, 2012 (New York Times)

We need death panels. Well, maybe not death panels, exactly, but unless we start allocating health care resources more prudently — rationing, by its proper name — the exploding cost of Medicare will swamp the federal budget....

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/17/opinion/health-care-reform-beyond-obamacare.html?_r=0

About the writer, from Wikipedia:

Steven Lawrence Rattner (born July 5, 1952) is an American financier who served as the lead auto advisor (informally the "car czar") in the United States Treasury Department under President Barack Obama. He was previously a co-founding principal of the Quadrangle Group, a global private equity firm specializing in the media and communications industries. He also spent two decades as an investment banker at Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley, and Lazard Freres & Co., where he became Deputy Chairman and Deputy Chief Executive Officer....

In 2009, Quadrangle and a dozen other investment firms, including the much larger Carlyle Group, were investigated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for the payments to Morris. The SEC viewed the payments as "kickbacks" in order to manage money for the New York State Common Retirement Fund... Quadrangle paid $7 million in April 2010 to settle the SEC investigation. In November, Rattner personally settled for $6.2 million without admitting or denying any wrongdoing.

The case drew significant media attention when Andrew Cuomo, then New York's Attorney General, demanded more severe penalties from Rattner than other firms or individuals involved in the alleged corruption.... On December 30, 2010, Rattner reached a settlement to pay $10 million in restitution but no fines or penalties. He was also not prohibited from continuing to protest his innocence.

Rattner is married to Maureen White, who served for five years as finance chair for the Democratic National Committee and is now the Senior Advisor on Humanitarian Issues to the Special Representative-Afghanistan and Pakistan for the U.S. Department of State....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Rattner

So, one of Obama's guys just opened an article in the NY Times with, "We need death panels." Amazing. If Obama gets re-elected, he'll finish turning America's healthcare over to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 10:32 PM

I suspect the title language was deliberately inflammatory. As one who was involved in renal care for 18 years, I have spoken with people who actually remember death panels.

These people were allowed into dialysis because the panelists considered that they met specific criteria of living "valuable lives." At that time, average survival rate on haemodialysis was 8 years. One of my especial friends survived that period and lived on dialysis for about 40 years, becoming the first person to complete college and medical training while under renal care. He did not get his first transplant until he had been treated for more than 30 years.

There is no reason to reject death panels as described. The greatest expenditure of medical monies is that which occurs in the inevitable losing battle of the final months of a person's life, at the end of which the husk of the former person, having had massive efforts expended on preserving "life," is finally allowed to expire without dignity.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:01 PM

Of course the language is inflammatory. Fascism's a hard sell. And that's what the article is about, fascism. There's plenty of money for war but not for healthcare? Obama's a practicing fascist. He's turning our healthcare system over to private interests, and they don't want to waste money on little things like keeping us alive.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:05 PM

If Obama had gone for single payer it would have failed...

He got what he could get...

We will be revisiting this in 10 years and fix it...

That is reality, wronger...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:11 PM

I just get sick of the government's worship of death. Look at the bio of the writer's (Rattner's) wife:

"Rattner is married to Maureen White, who served for five years as finance chair for the Democratic National Committee and is now the Senior Advisor on Humanitarian Issues to the Special Representative-Afghanistan and Pakistan for the U.S. Department of State...."

War is now called "humanitarian intervention." That's how they sell the invasion of countries to us in the U.S. now, by calling the actions humanitarian. So Rattner's wife is an "Advisor on Humanitarian Issues" to the special representative in, of all places, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Obama's drone bombing the shit out of those countries daily, then watching the snuff films of the actions. Rattner's wife works in the Department of State, under the butcher Hillary Clinton. These people are all insane international murderers. And now they're turning their attention to the U.S. healthcare system. These people don't have death with dignity in mind no way, no how, for no one. They're just psychokillers.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:14 PM

Oh, you'll be compromised to death (literally) after the election. Obama's said he's "eager" to work with the other side. Even if the Republicans are reduced to one crack whore in the senate and one toad in the House of Reps, Obama will be saying the other side made him kill Social Security.

That's what fascists do.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:24 PM

You are the fascist here, wronger...

You support insurance companies getting the last say...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:27 PM

BTW, the insurance companies are interested in profits... They gonna care about keeping yer ass alive????

Obama got what he could get... He knows that this will get revisited...

You are the fascist...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 11:29 PM

No, I support expanding Medicaire to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 01:11 AM

"In 2009, Quadrangle and a dozen other investment firms, including the much larger Carlyle Group, were investigated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission for the payments to Morris."

Who the fuck is Morris?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 01:21 AM

"So, one of Obama's guys just opened an article in the NY Times with, "We need death panels." Amazing. If Obama gets re-elected, he'll finish turning America's healthcare over to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies. "

That President sure is sneaky not rescinding the free speech rights of people who used to advise him.

My advise songwonger is don't vote for him. Vote Romney. No death panels under Romney, just an allowance to buy private insurance and an "I can't tell you to how to take personal responsibility."

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 04:18 AM

Vote for Roseanne
(:-( ))=

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:37 AM

Is that Roseanne Barr?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:40 AM

Hey ShitWringer: blow me.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 02:27 PM

Are you related to Spaw, Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:44 PM

...he'll finish turning America's healthcare over to the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

How would that diffeer from your current arrangements?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:51 PM

Well, the interesting thing about Obama's health care plan is that it legally requires people to buy health insurance...from the private sector! Very expensive health insurance. WAY more expensive than the health-related taxes people pay in a socialized health insurance system such as exists in Canada and most of Europe. What profit-making business wouldn't love legislation which forces the public to purchase their exorbitantly expensive product? Sounds like a capitalist robber baron's dream come true to me.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Arkie
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:58 PM

Obama pushed for health care reform. Congress passed the reform bill after much debate and tradeoffs. There seemed to be some consensus at the time that the those who represented the insurance industry were successful in getting favorable terms for insurance corporations. With medical costs rising about seven times the rate of income for average people there would have been no need for death panels. People would have been choosing between food and medical care. That may still become an option.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:58 PM

Yo, Wronger...

What were Obama's chances of getting Medicare for all???

A. Zero

B. Nada

C. No way

Pick one...

The only way to get there is to start with something, even if it's not the greatest... That's what we got... It, at the very least, pushed the peanut down the field a little closer and gets the entire issue into peoples thinking...

I mean, people who don't understand the difficulty of getting anything done that the corporations don't want and branding those who try as fascists are showing just how little they do understand the process...

Yeah, sure... We'd all love to change the world... That ain't the way it works...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:01 PM

People make the mistake of equating size with profits.
Most successful corporations make about 10% profit, which hold for the small as well as the large.
Some of the new digital corporations and the hardware companies making digital equipment make much more than 10%(Apple, Facebook, etc.), but that doesn't hold for corporations as a whole.

Insurance companies are an integral part of the American financial system. Their money is invested in businesses of all kinds and physical property. In other words, part of their function is that of other financial institutions.

I am a small shareholder in, and take life insurance from, Massachusetts Mutual, one of the largest.
(Customer of long-standing, the dividends they pay me on my insurance exceed the premiums I pay them.

Revenue in 2011-25 billion
Assets managed- c. 450 billion
Insurance in force- c. 500 billion
Policyholders reserves- 74 billion
Paid to shareholders- 1.3 billion
Assets- 148 billion
Liabilities (inc. mandated reserves, taxes, dividends, etc.- 137 billion
Surplus- 11 billion

My health insurance is with another company, but that is part of my employment-retirement setup. It covers everything not paid by my Provincial health insurance (dental, drugs, physio, , equipment such as walkers and wheelchairs, specialists charges, etc. The province only pays part of these expenses).

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:04 PM

Condensed Mass Mutual 2011 report-
http://www.massmutual.com/mmfg/pdf/2011_mmsub_stat.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:34 PM

My story is quite different, Q...

I owned a small business for the last 20 years of my working (for money, that is) life... I had between 5 and 8 employees at various times... I could not get into a group that was affordable and I could not afford (literally) to cover my employees without ruining the business...

We all scrambled for health insurance... Or the younger ones just said "Heck with it"... I always had insurance but with $10,000 deductibles because that was all I could afford... I went 20 years paying into these companies and never got anything but one shingles vaccine out of them... Not sure why they paid for that???

That's most small businessmen in America... At least the one's I know...

I'd hate to think of how much I spent over those 20 years for health insurance just to protect me in case of a catastrophic illness... I bet wrong...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 08:53 PM

I forget the exact number, but something like 80% of personal bankruptcies in the U.S. are medical-related. The current healthcare system in the U.S. is designed to steal property. Obama is just streamlining the process.

But look at that prick Rattner, who wrote the N Y Times article. He was Obama's Car Czar. Democrats praised Obama (and still do) for saving America's car industry and elevating the unions and so on with that awful deal. And this Rattner was one of the architects of it. But look at his bio. He spent two decades as an investment banker before he stabbed the unions in the back.

And his scuzzy wife. She's helping to put a Happy Face on the murder of people in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

So Rattner is chosen to be the one who starts selling death panels to Democrats. Democrats SCREAMED when Sarah Palin even SUGGESTED that such panels might exist, and now we have Obama's Car Czar telling us in THE OPENING SENTENCE OF HIS ARTICLE, that we need death panels. Amazing.

Obama should be arrested, tried and executed for treason, as George W. Bush should. But Rattner should swing alongside them. Him and all the Bush/Obama/Romney flunkies who are trying to peddle death to us.

I bet some of you heaped scorn on Palin because of the death panel issue. Any comments from you?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: gnu
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:10 PM

I just turned 55 this year and my health insurance got jacked WAY up. It happens again at 60... 65...

Yeah, I am a Canuck. Health care is free here... while you are in the hospital. If you are home, yer fucked if you can't pay... until you have to go back in the hospital and then it's free. If you ain't bleedin, nobody cares. If yer bleedin, it's free until ya stop bleedin.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:21 PM

We all know about how Mitt Romney did evil deeds for Bain Capital, but now there's a new scandal:

I owned a small business for the last 20 years of my working (for money, that is) life... I had between 5 and 8 employees at various times... I could not get into a group that was affordable and I could not afford (literally) to cover my employees without ruining the business...

We all scrambled for health insurance... Or the younger ones just said "Heck with it"...

Shocking. Mr. Bobert the businessman did not provide insurance for his employees. He benefitted from their labor, but when it came time to provide for their well-being, he left them to fend for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:29 PM

It was a marginally profitable business... This is reality in America... The most money I ever made for working 6 days a week and hiring people was $58,000... As a business owner...

Do the math, man... If I had provided health insurance then I wouldn't have been able to provide the 5-8 jobs I did... Ask those people if they would rather have no pay check on Friday...

This is reality everywhere in America...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 09:46 PM

Very simple question, Songwronger:

Who are you going to vote for in the coming election?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:02 PM

Songwronger, here's the other part of the test. Where do you stand on these issues:
Abortion
Support for families of impoverished mothers
Capital punishment
Are your stances consistent or merely conventient based upon conservative/reactionary principles?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:11 PM

Wrongman is easy... If Obama believes in it than wrongman, who hates Obama, is against it...

Purdy simple here...

b~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 11:03 PM

My vote. I can't vote for Obama or Romney. I voted for Obama because he promised to end the wars. He lied. Stealing a buck is a crime, but stealing a vote isn't? Obama shouldn't be in office. I wish we had immediate recalls--politicians should put a deadline on their promises, and if they don't deliver by the deadline, pull them. And then there's Romney. He's insane, and not just in Obama's narcicisstic way. Romney's a loon. Cult member and all that. That leaves third parties. They're just steam valves for the big Dem/Rep juggernaut, so I'm thinking of writing in Ron Paul. This is the saddest election I've ever seen. This is like choosing which pile of shit to step in. Do you drink the cup of vomit or the cup of pus? Bush / Gore was bad, Obama / McCain, but this time, this is putrescent. That Obama hasn't been impeached is a national embarassment, and that Romney should get within tour distance of the white house is a national nightmare.

Abortion is another discussion, big can of worms. I consider myself a limited supporter of FDR-style social programming, as long as it doesn't get in the way of individual initiative. Orphans should be taken care of, and a decent retirement provided for the rest. And Medicaire for all. Capital punishment--I approve of death panels of 12 seated jurors. As I stated above, Bush/Obama/Romney should be tried and executed. I have no problem with executions of such obviously guilty traitors.

Too bad we Americans can't be like the highly educated Canadians. Best educated people in the world, another thread says. No wonder they elect such excellent politicians. Don't they crap sugar rosettes?

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 11:18 PM

Your incoherent whining is a certain indictment of the US system.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: LadyJean
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:52 AM

A friend of mine is being run ragged, caring for her elderly father. It's a bit like having a very large three year old in the house, except he isn't going to outgow it.

Two years ago, her father, a very active man, who lived on his own, and enjoyed hiking the Appalachian trail, went in for what was supposed to be routine surgery. It might have been routine for someone who wasn't well into his eighties. It was not routine for him. Several things went seriously wrong. He was in the hospital for months. While there he picked up a nasty infection. He ran through his health insurance.
Now he is living at his daughter's. His mind is going. He can't take care of himself. It will never get better. It will, certainly, get worse. A nursing home is not an option, because his health insurance is gone. He can see the doctor, because he's a veteran. It might have been better if he hadn't had the routine surgery.
I think we can do better.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:41 AM

Lady Jean's comment is relevant in light of an article in the New York times Magazine last year. The article was about adult caregivers and cited data that the typical lifespan of these caregivers is shortened by one year for every year they take care of their incapacitated relatives, be they spice or parents.

The death panels issue is bogus in the present discussion. What is mandated in the affordable care act is that, when a person reaches a crisis or may need surgery, they and their family should receive at least one counseling session with their doctor to discuss both prognosis and what will happen in the event of not receiving treatment for this condition. Responsible doctors have been doing this for years. Generally, the family says to provide the treatment even when it is not truly warranted.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:28 AM

The real death panels will have to come if the Romney/Ryan ideas for Medicaid become law... The states will then have to pick up the costs of old people in nursing homes who, like the guy in LadyJean's post, burned thru all their resources...

The states in the Romney/Ryan world aren't going to be able to handle it and old people, who worked all their lives and played by the rules, will be denied care...

That is reality...

Don't think so??? Read up on what Romney and Ryan have in mind for Medicaid...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 02:09 PM

We've had death panels for decades. They're called Health Insurance companies.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 09:12 PM

The loony left hooted when Sarah Palin said Obamacare would mean death panels. And now one of Obama's top men says "We need death panels." Period. An Obama second term will mean death panels.

But then so will a Romney presidency. Obamacare is based on Romneycare.

Obama and Romney are destroyers, so we won't see anything better for a long while. And under them the US dollar will die, so then we'll be told it's too late to do anything to fix the problem.

And where's Jack the Sailor from? England? They kill those poor people off by the tens of thousands with their national health care system.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: GUEST,Cobble.
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 10:09 PM

Jack the Sailor from? England?
I have read your posts and i can only say what a load of shit you talk no we don't kill of tens of thousands with our health service, we have tens of thousands of scroungers from around the world trying to get treatment here because its free. Are you one of the 60% of Americans that never travel the world that seem to think you know whats going on everywhere else.
Songwronger get into the real world, i did nearly 50 years ago..

Cobble

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 11:53 PM

The NHS is crap. I can dig out the articles about the constant cutbacks and rising death rates as a consequence, but we've both seen them...

Here's a fun one:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/7908742/Axe-falls-on-NHS-services.html

Look at the 'related articles' on that page, too. Your healthcare system is crap. And why would you blame the situation on foreigners? Why don't you blame it on the politicians? They give away your industry, put you on starvation wages and then tell you it's all the fault of scrounging foreigners.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:12 AM

You couldn't be more wrong, but that's par for the course with you.

Nobody in the UK is denied treatment and nobody has to produce a checkbook or credit card to get it.

That system you deride costs us individually a very small percentage of our earnings taken each payday.

I paid an average of £30 National Insurance per month throughout my working life, and there are no exclusions excesses or co-pay schemes.

That is about one fifth of what it costs for a much reduced level of cover in the USA, and that only if you are not among the millions who are not even in the system.

You have some nerve criticising our NHS, when you kill thousands by not offering ANY treatment to those with nothing in the bank.

The UK Media are spouting off about funding problems which actually relate to Social Care rather than medical.

I'd suggest that you make sure you know what you're talking about before opening that big loose mouth, but that would require a modicum of intelligence.

BTW, most UK citizens would be willing to pay more for healthcare, if asked.

Many Americans would throw a hissy fit at the thought.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:50 AM

Songwronger needs to have every diploma and certificate revoked including kindergarten because of his inability to play well with others. Shame on his teachers shame on his schools.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 09:06 AM

I am an American with a number of disabling autoimmune conditions living, working and receiving excellent care from the NHS in the UK.

Because of my health needs I am a medical exile from my native country. If US has similar system to UK I'd move back home to Virginia.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 09:49 AM

If the Romney/Ryan train wreck occurs then the UK might as well gear up for a couple three million grandmas and grandpas 'cause their idea to turn Medicaid over to the states will force states to boot these people out of nursing homes...

Stock up on bedpans and hospital beds, UKers...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 01:59 PM

Actually Bobz, that is the area in which we DO have problems. Care of the elderly is divided into medical and social care.

The NHS is responsible for the medical care, while social care is the domain of nursing homes, and since there is money to be made, private nursing homes spring up like mushrooms and cream off all the elderly who have saved and provided for retirement, including owning their homes outright. They squeeze every last drop of cash out of them down to an arbitary figure which they cannot touch, and then ditch them into the small number of government funded homes.

The main problem is that there is constant disagreement aboout whether cases are medical or social, with no clear delineation of areas of responsibility.

This is one of the areas in which we punish the thrifty and reward the indigent.

So I'm afraid, old mate that this is unlikely to be the place to head for.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: NY Times - 'We need death panels'
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:52 PM

Social care vs medical care. Once you're over a certain age and you get sick, that's a social problem? The English invented this language and don't even understand how they're being tricked by its semantics. The biggest difference between the U.S. system and the British system of medical care is that the Brits think they have a system that works.

There are so many NHS horror stories on the web... Well here. A search of "NHS horror stories":

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=Ao16ZFB5Io76Yy7zZjf5bOKbvZx4?p=nhs+horror+stories&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701