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BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:16 AM And so are bananas, but you can eat a banana. - Chongo p.s. Beliefs aren't necessarily nonsense. They are simply an assessment a person makes about the probabilities as he sees 'em (or an assumption a person makes based on customs and conventions). That assessment can be based on prior experiences, logic, gathering information, trusting other people's word about something or just going on a "gut feeling" or a hunch, among other things. And some beliefs are much stronger than others...so belief is not necessarily absolute belief. Like I said, it's an assessment of probabilities. Customs also play a big part in formin' beliefs. For instance, most of us believe we oughta keep our genitals covered up in public situations. Why? Does it really matter? Well, we believe it because we've grown up in a society that follows that custom, that's why! If we was dogs or bush apes, we'd all be walkin' around bare-assed, and thinkin' nothing of it, because we wouldn't have that belief, see? No one would even notice. Same goes for our beliefs about what constitutes proper clothing. Give you a couple more examples: I believe I can successfully start my care today if I choose to. Why? Well, it started up yesterday, that's why. Prior experience. I might be wrong, it might not start today, but my basic belief is...it probably will. I also believe that somebody will read this after I post and try to pick out somethin' he can object to in it. If my belief is correct, he'll post shortly about it and point out my errors to me. Ook! Ook! ;-D Now, where's my banana? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:17 AM That shoulda been start my car. Not start my "care". |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,999 Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM You really wanna know where your banana is? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:52 AM You mean "Jonestown", yes? The Jonestown people had actually rehearsed the group suicide on a number of occasions. There is some thought that many, if not most of the victims believed it was just another rehearsal. I think that when you say, "may have been more sheeplike and disoriented than idealistic." you describe the situation of many, if not most of the Kamikaze types--that is that they are forced into the situation by others. You can watch a documentary about surviving Kamikaze pilots hereThe Wings of Defeat. They explain it all...it's worth investing 89 minutes. [link fixed...mudelf] |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Donuel Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:54 AM If I believed that my wife and or kids were in imminent danger and that I would risk my life to successfully save them, I would do so. Most of us would do the same for a stranger. The you/I distinction dissolves in such emergencies. We would all deliberately die in certain critical situations. (this may not apply to social psychopaths devoid of conscience, or people incapable of a physical response.) Unknowingly we risk our life in situations in which power dynamics are arrainged against us in ways in which we are totally unaware, be it an aggresive driver's motives or an intelligence officer's misplaced or deranged agenda.Everyday we may accidently die because of a trusting belief that society and individuals would do the right thing. some don't. Meaningful or unknowing sacrifice is something each of us do each day that carries the consequence ofn possibly dieing. Questions of martyrdom and out right self sacrifice are an entirely seperate issue in my way of thinking. Those actions are the result of training ie. religious, military or political, and are not innate to human/primate nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:56 AM Sorry-here is the link to the doc about surviving Kamikaze pilots again: The Wings of Defeat |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:57 AM Yes, Jonestown of course. Controlled by James "Jim" Jones. Years ago I watched a TV documentary about his life. Evidently he started out as a humanitarian, then slowly became paranoid and dangerous. SATIRE ALERT: That shouldn't happen, should it? ALL CLEAR. Will give the kamikaze film a look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:57 AM That was me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Donuel Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM * successfully save them - refers to a situation in which there is time to dive in and save someone before disaster, not one in which they are about to go over Niagra Falls in 2 seconds and I am 20 seconds away. Some measure of possible sucess must exist otherwise the act of "help" would be deemed suicide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:52 PM to die for a belief is martyerdom.... and not limited to those who support just or even sane causes... IMO. I will live my beliefs and risk my life to protect what I believe needs protecting... but I am no suicide bomber or self immolator to throw my life away for some cause or belief ... access to virgins or counting on a better afterlife/place on the wheel doesn't do it for me. I'm thankful that I have never had to kill a fellow human, though that attitude does not extend to my livestock... with a few notable exceptions. And I do not consider an embyro or fetus to be sacrosanct... only the parents have any business determining whatever fate it may have. There are those who worked for change/progress and knew that they risked their lives... and they still did what they felt needed to be done... and I am sure hoped they would survive to see that better day. Soldiers put themselves at risk, but very few are even asked to take on what is sure to be a suicide mission... though there have indeed been notable exceptions... but I think the world is a better place when we engage in enlightened self interest and altruism... and you need to be alive to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:09 PM From thought provoking posting on FB Religious Society of Friends page: Bill Powell I was reminded today of the sacrifice of the Quaker, Norman Morrison, who set himself afire in front of the Pentagon in 1965 as an attempt to stop the killing of innocents in Vietnam. His death in 1965 did spur protests against the war and probably brought it to to an end earlier than might have otherwise happened. The concluding stanza from the Vietnamese poet Ho Huu: "Washington.. Twilight.. O souls Still living or having gone before! Now my heart is at its brightest! I burn my body. So the flames may blaze The truth. Like · · Follow Post · January 18 at 10:18pm 5 people like this. Shane A. Petzer RIP Normon Morrison Saturday at 2:20pm · Like · 1 Pablo Stanfield read the Pendle Hill pamphlet 5 hours ago · Like · 1 Michael Albero i struggle with a 'violent act' as a protest! 5 hours ago · Like · 4 Bill Powell Michael....I do as well...but during that time Buddhist Monks were doing it (and, actually, even now that is happening). But, where does someone stop or give up in the face of what they see as evil....I don't know. 5 hours ago · Like · 1 Michael Albero YES Bill Powell i watch such acts with a troubled heart 4 hours ago · Like · 2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Donuel Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:24 PM If you are going to define "to die for" as martyrdom alone, why not title the question, Martyrdom, is it for you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:55 PM You present a lot to think about, Dorothy. Wikipedia says: On November 2, 1965, Morrison doused himself in kerosene and set himself on fire below Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's Pentagon office. At the time, most Americans believed the U.S. was right to be involved in the Vietnam war. It seems like a horrible thing to do, but I can't imagine that anything short of self-immolation would have made people question their support of that war. I think his self-chosen martyrdom was worth the cost. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: kendall Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:01 AM I was against the Viet Nam war, the Korean war, the war in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the invasion of Granada and Panama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,999 Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:20 AM I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure. Clarence Darrow |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:26 AM If any Christians, following this thread, were given the the choice " publically renounce your Christian faith, or be shot dead!", how many would pick the later? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:30 AM Religious martyrs with no political agenda who go to certain death rather than deny their religion are literally "dying for a belief." In contrast, political martyrs like the IRA hunger strikers who starved themselves to death die as much in the hope of improving conditions for others as they do simply to uphold an abstract principle. That's a belief, too, in the sense that there's no proof that it's going to happen, but the nature of the hoped-for result is quite different. How "sane" such martyrs are, or whether overall "sanity" is even relevant at such times, is an interesting question. In some cases, it might just be irrational defiance. It's a very good thing that more people aren't ready simply to "die for a belief." If they were, many more arguments would end in death, and every war would be a lot bloodier. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Bill D Date: 23 Jan 13 - 12:44 PM Interesting--- the difference between "die for a belief" and "risk your life for a cause". Many of us would 'risk'.... anyone who has served in he military or police force or even rescue teams does so knowing there is danger and potential death, but sees the benefits to country, home and humanity. Martyrs seem to 'usually' be religiously inclined, and that, to me, seems to be the only genuine concept of dying for a belief... either because god 'demands' it or 'approves' of it. In almost ALL such cases there seems to be the underlying idea that one will be rewarded in the 'afterlife'. I do note that in many cases, those who do the recruiting and justifying of martyrdom are not the ones doing the dying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 13 - 01:23 PM Bill, I think the idea of being "rewarded in the afterlife" bothers you mostly just because you think there probably IS no afterlife. I'll explain what I mean about that... We ARE rewarded for our own good conduct in the aftermath of any event in which we take part...and punished in various ways for our bad conduct. For instance, if I commit a crime or a wrongful act of any kind, I may be punished afterward by... - the legal system - the disapproval of my community - the disappointment of friends and family - the negative attention I get in the media - fines, imprisonment - feelings of guilt, embarrassment, and/or regret over what I've done - etc.! So, we are definitely run the considerable risk of being punished in various ways in the aftermath of our negative acts while we're still alive. This doesn't indicate that God punishes us, necessarily. It merely indicates that the results of our actions punish us! That's also called "karma". On the other hand, when we do good things, we receive many rewards for them. Assuming there was an afterlife...and there may well be...and since one's consciousness and memory would therefore still be functioning...why would one NOT expect to be either punished or rewarded in some way by one's own good and bad acts, since one would still be affected at least by the knowledge of them, and the feelings such as regret or remorse which that knowledge brings forth? One doesn't need a punishing deity handing out thunderbolts and slaps on the wrist in order to feel regret or remorse, and to wish that one had done better. If there is an afterlife, then such feelings will apply. And so will the good feelings generated by the memory of our kinder and better acts. In short, we bear responsibility, and we can't necessarily escape it just by knocking over the mortal chessboard and saying, "The game's over." The results of what we did linger on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Mysha Date: 23 Jan 13 - 02:02 PM Hi, There are no believes that I think I'm willing to die for. Nor are there situations that I think I would be willing to take considerable mortal risk in. But it's not just those who think they would give their life who might be wrong. Very few people have enough self-knowledge to actually know what they would do in every possible situation. So, though I think I wouldn't lay down my life, maybe I would. Bye Mysha |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 13 - 02:09 PM In a Society with the take a life save a life mentality, unfortunately some are dying in wars on good faith belief built on a pack of lies n corruption.Hard to know who the devils or the angels are these days.As for dying for it, what God would want that.Not mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Bill D Date: 23 Jan 13 - 02:15 PM "... bothers you mostly just because you think there probably IS no afterlife. " Umm... not exactly- though that is part of it. After all, if I am right, the 'martyr' never knows he has been scamed. (The scammer may or may NOT know it is a scam... some may believe they are doing the volunteers a favor).It also bothers me because it is a scam - AND because the scam does damage and causes grief to others beyond the would-be martyr. But it really bothers me that people in general are and have been... and probably always will be... able TO hold unverifiable beliefs of that type. You know how strongly I hold the idea of critical, rational thinking... and when the ignorant are manipulated by the semi-ignorant to do harm in the name of a variety of 'causes' which are largely narrowly defined bits of self-interest (personal or clan or culture), it offends my notion of what being Human COULD mean. I am aware that sacrifice and martyrdom CAN be inspiring to those left behind.... but not always positively. Respect for soldiers who died defending our country if a bit different than 'inspiring' others to hate and kill and conquer. "...since one's consciousness and memory would therefore still be functioning..." To me, that is a mere linguistic construct.... I cannot really imagine what a 'consciousness' might be after the physical entity dies. Of course I see the lure of such an idea! *I* would love to hover over 'things' forever, without the need to chase dinner or pay bills, and 'see what happens'! But thinking it might be fun is FAR from telling me how & where all those memories and thought would ...reside?... after the neurons (that can be MEASURED here & now) are destroyed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 23 Jan 13 - 02:42 PM Is there a differentiation between political and religious? Everything I am politically stems from the religious. Norman Morrison's immolation was based on his religious belief. It certainly had a strong effect on many people but not all positive, even amongst other Quakers. But it did, and still does, cause people to think. It was not in vain. I vaguely remember his wife as being OK with what he felt he had to do. War is wrong. Killing is wrong. Is killing oneself wrong? I do not think so. Is putting one's life in jeopardy? I don't think so. Have I done it? Only in small ways. Would I put myself in jeopardy to save someone else? Probably without a thought. I believe most of us would. Does that have to do with belief? Every person is sacred. Every creature is but I would not put myself in the way of a serious auto accident to miss an animal, other than human, in the road. Did Rosa Parks think that she could be killed for sitting in the wrong seat? Probably. Did MLK know he was putting his life in jeopardy? Definitely. Even my, then, husband knew - though the arrogant SOB went South for the glory of it rather than religious belief. (I could be wrong.) And those other young people who died for their beliefs? To know that others have and to believe that it could happen to oneself are very different. There was even concern, in 1963, when I rode on a train from Phila to Oklahoma City with my mother-in-law who had darker skin than I. I was too naive to be THAT worried. Only looking back do I realize the dangers of that time in those places. Strong belief can act as a ......?. If a person believes very strongly, that can overcome the physical pain of torture and allow them to suffer and die in peace. Such a story exists of a person, who was able to forgive even as they were being tortured to death. And whose murderer lived to change because of it. And this would have had an affect on each person he later encountered. I would prefer not to find myself in that position. I just muddle along like most of us, doing the best I can, fortunate to live in a time and place where I am not sorely tested. Would I kill another person to avoid being killed myself? I doubt it. Oh shucks, it is so cold in here today, maybe my brain has frozen! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Bill D Date: 23 Jan 13 - 03:57 PM "Is there a differentiation between political and religious? Everything I am politically stems from the religious." Obviously for you, there is only minor differentiation.. *shrug*.. but there is a clause on the Constitution that says we must differentiate and NOT mix them in our laws. No one can control WHY someone makes political decisions, but there are rules against direct favoritism for specific religious doctrines.... therefore there is a differentiation in our language and concepts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Mrr whose computer STILL R'sIP Date: 23 Jan 13 - 04:22 PM the belief that I was successfully fighting for my life? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 13 - 05:32 PM You said, Bill: "I cannot really imagine what a 'consciousness' might be after the physical entity dies." Yeah, I know you can't. ;-) But a great many people can. They can very easily imagine it. People in all cultures and times have imagined it. It depends on whether you think consciousness only arises out of physical form (therefore as a byproduct OF physical form) and can't exist apart from it...or whether you think consciousness existed both before and after the physical form, and that the physical form merely houses it and carries it for a while the way an automobile carries a passenger...or a radio receives and broadcasts an audible program. I think consciousness built the physical form of every single living thing, molecule by molecule, with a definite purpose in mind, and that it was already there before the physical form could even be seen, and that it will still be there after the physical form becomes inert and dead in our terms of what we mean BY "dead" when we say the word...and after the physical form vanishes through decay and entropy. I didn't say I KNOW this, however. I said I "think" so, meaning I think it's reasonably probable...it seems far more probable to me than the conventional alternative, which is the one you are sympathetic toward. We cannot provide any physical evidence regarding this, because it isn't physical. It's a matter of consciousness (purposeful intelligence and awareness), and you can't weigh or measure consciousness or divide it into units of measure...though you can certainly experience it, and we all do. It can't be proven (in your terms of "proof")...it can only be experienced. And we've discussed that any number of times before, you and I. People's many "beliefs" are their habitual mental structures and the assumptions in consciousness on which they have come to rely in some way. They have their social beliefs, religious beliefs, cultural beliefs, ethical beliefs, personal beliefs about themselves and others, beliefs about life, trivial beliefs, and vitally important beliefs that run very deep. Some are beneficial. Some are harmful. Some do lead to things like martyrdom, self-sacrifice, heroism, folly, and the very greatest accomplishments as well. No person is without beliefs. To find out what their beliefs are, you need to observe them closely in a great variety of situations which test those beliefs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:16 PM It seems strange to me that Morrison left a wife and two daughters. He even brought his one-year old daughter along when he burned himself. I don't doubt that he opposed the war or intended his death to make a statement. I just wonder if he wasn't suicidal anyway. A few days later, Roger La Porte set himself afire in front of the UN. He lived long enough to say explicitly that his death was a political protest against all war. Morrison is regarded as a hero of conscience. La Porte seems to have been forgotten. Whether their motives were entirely idealistic or partly acts of emotional desperation will never be known. Both men were imitating Buddhist monks who had immolated themselves in Saigon. None of these deaths had any effect on the war itself, which continued to increase in intensity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 13 - 06:41 PM In the end, everyone does what they feel they |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:24 PM ""It isn't the availability of guns alone, it's the idea that it's OK to use those guns when one has a problem with others..."" When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. When all you have is a gun, every problem looks like a target. Simples! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Bill D Date: 23 Jan 13 - 07:31 PM "Yeah, I know you can't. ;-) But a great many people can. They can very easily imagine it Oh, I doubt THAT. If pressed as to exactly what they 'imagine', they give vague references which almost always end up as circular word-play about 'souls' and 'heaven' and 'realms'..etc, which they can't describe except circularly. " It depends on whether you think.....consciousness existed both before and after the physical form...." Well, yes it does! Of course it depends that way. If you have that opinion, that is, 'believe' it, then... umm.. you believe it. I hardly think implicit tautologies are very convincing, except to those who already accept the linguistic concept. Yep... we HAVE discussed this and similar things many times. It is not likely for either of us to sway the other much on what YOU refer to as "habitual mental structures and the assumptions in consciousness ...". You state clearly that you can't prove or demonstrate the .... ummm.. reality.. of your beliefs...and you 'sort of' treat that as a defense and justification. Almost like.."Of course I can't prove such things to YOUR satisfaction, but they satisfy ME, therefore they make sense." You can imagine how I shake my head when people talk that way. Ain't no law agin' it... but as an old woman from the hills said about a lot of pop music... "Why, they're just singin' about AIR!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Little Hawk Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:23 PM They can't imagine it exactly because they haven't experienced it yet, Bill. What I meant was they can imagine the possibility of it, which you apparently cannot...or are unwilling to...simply because you don't want to. I think it offends your sense of certainty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Mrr whose computer STILL R'sIP Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:35 PM Don()T, in America, even if you have a lot of stuff if you have a gun every problem looks like a target... Didn't anyone agree with my earlier BIWDF? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:38 PM If it's like that for you, DonT, then we'll just have to take your hammer away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For? From: Bill D Date: 24 Jan 13 - 12:23 PM "...they can imagine the possibility of it, which you apparently cannot.." Oh, I can intellectually conceive of the possibility... *grin*.... and I never absolutely deny such things... it's just that I cannot do what I take 'imagining' to be... actually creating some sort of audio/visual construct of what the experience might be like. I can 'imagine' floating happily above/among 'stuff'... but it's always ME... not some amorphous consciousness. I really CAN'T imagine what the experience of being 'pure consciousness' might be like... which is why I say so often that I suspect people confuse a linguistic construct with reality.... they create a noun, and act as though giving a concept a name endows it with 'being'... much like Plato seemed to do with his 'eternal forms'. Then they discuss 'it' with others of the same inclination and trade opinions/stories on their experiences... and are a bit surprised when those 'unimaginative' folks like me don't buy into the process. After all... don't 294,211 apocryphal anecdotes constitute some sort of convincing schema? ;>) "You pays yer money and you takes yer choice." |
