BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?

Subject: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Rapparee Sans Cookie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 09:52 PM

A man who won't die for something is not fit to live.
                                  --Martin Luther King, Jr.

I am prepared to die, but there is no cause for which I am prepared to kill.
                                        --Mahatma Gandhi

You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.
                                    -― C.S. Lewis

Are YOU willing to die for your beliefs? I don't mean beliefs in fairies or Good, but would you die for the right of another to speak his or her mind even if they disagreed with you? Would you die so someone else might live?

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Padre
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 09:58 PM

I would be willing to die for the doctrine that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Person of the blessed, undivided Trinity, was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, died on the Cross, and rose again for the salvation of all mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:01 PM

Let's get real...

Ho Chi Mihn told us that "he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day'...

Bruce Springsteen wrote about a "martyr with his papers in order"...

Me???

Die for a belief??? That's purdy dumb... I mean, if you believe something you believe it and giving up your life for it doesn't doesn't further your cause... It has just taken one voice out of the discussion...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:27 PM

Ah, Padre Tom.... I'm sure you would, although that was not the point of the question....and remember, the operant word was 'belief'. How strongly do you feel about someone's right NOT to believe in Christian theology?

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Janie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:41 PM

I'm not sure. And quite a question to reflect upon, Rap.

When I look at this world and consider what I know and understand (which isn't much) about the universe, many of the beliefs I hold may not be all that functional over the long haul.

Would requiring prioritizing, at the very least. Figuring out imperatives. What I know is that my small brain holds what may well be incompatible imperatives.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:46 PM

Well, since the only thing I believe in is Jack Shit, the question is, "Would I be willing to die for Jack Shit?" Nope! There's this black granite wall in DC with the names of about 60,000 people who died for Jack Shit when I was a teenager and young adult. That's enough.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 10:53 PM

**thinking** I have always been willing to fight for anyone's right to believe as they choose, as long as their belief does not infringe on those of others. Does that make sense?

I suppose there might be circumstances where my belief could lead to my dying for it. I need 23 more paragraphs to expound and specify..... you wouldn't read them, so..............

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 11:45 PM

The beliefs I would die for are responsibility and pragmatism. If I was told that I could live another year if I spent all of our savings on an operation or die in a week. I would choose the later to leave the money for Carol to live on.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Janie
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 11:48 PM

People, in most countries our young men, are thrust into the position of perhaps dying for nation or for beliefs institutionalized by a nation or culture that culturally a nation espouses. In those instances I'm not sure that it is a question of having beliefs for which one is willing to die, but finding one in situations in which one faces the real risk of dying, and then striving to make meaning of the situation in which one finds oneself.

When I look it hard in the face, I have positions for which I am willing for others to die. I am not willing to advocate for the abolition of the military. Nor am I willing to join the military and would fight my son tooth and nail if he decided to join the military. Were he conscripted and at risk, I imagine I would put myself through all sorts of twists and turns, were he to die, to make some meaning of it and to tolerate the grief. I don't think that in general, people who join the military, or get conscripted, go in thinking they are willing to die. Being willing to die for a cause is different from understanding one might die.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:05 AM

I believe in the right of every person to be treated with justice and respect. I'd die for that.

Padre and I share religious beliefs fairly closely, I think; and I believe all those things that Padre spoke of. I've wondered if I would be willing to die for those beliefs. I think I have to say honestly that I wouldn't. I can't see that dying for a system of beliefs or a creed would accomplish anything - but dying for the welfare of another person, that could be worthwhile.

Now, my belief in justice and respect is intertwined with my religious belief, and flows from that religious belief. While I wouldn't die for the abstract concepts of a religious belief, I would die for the goodness that is intertwined with that belief. But no, I won't die for an ideology.

Does that make any sense?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:24 AM

While there are some things I believe are important enough to lay down one's life for, I don't think in most situations it would be efficient or effective to do so. Becoming a random martyr would be less efficient than, say, joining an underground resistance movement, depending on the situation. I know there have been situations in history where dying for a belief or a cause was extraordinarily powerful in changing the course of events for the good, but, I have to also say that they are not usually predictable or subject to planning. So the question is kind of full of holes, if you see my point.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 02:42 AM

Joe,

I tend to be concerned when people say they would die for a religious belief. If I understand Padre's post accurately, he would die to support a set of historical stories as being true.   

It begs the question of the circumstances in which dying would be necessary. . Falling out over religion has always seemed rather sad to me, chiefly as the religious aspects have usually been a smokescreen for exerting more temporal powers. The inquisition and crusades being historical examples and jihad being a present day concern.

I wouldn't expect people to die over a change to planning regulations which affect everybody in an area so find it rather disturbing to see otherwise rational people claiming they would die for a metaphysical concept that affects only them and their mates.

The mayhem and mass sorrow caused by suicide bombers being a good example of dying for what you are told is your faith. Me? I'd read the smallprint first just in case my crusade masked a more down to earth agenda. .

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 02:47 AM

I am not sure if any of my beliefs are that strong. But I would definitely risk my life to save others - Particularly those close to me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM

None

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:18 AM

I'm afraid I would not die for any belief. I have the basic animal instinct to cling to life no matter what. I like living and I'd never voluntarily die. No 'belief' is worth sacrficing one's life for. And besides, it would achieve nothing. So, in answer to the question, none.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 05:33 AM

My problem with this is: No amount of belief can create a fact.
Religion and superstition are one and the same to me.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:51 AM

So then...would you throw yourself on a grenade to save wounded people who would otherwise be killed? Would you pull a child from in front of an oncoming train, knowing that YOU wouldn't make it? Would you give up your seat in a lifeboat to someone older than you? If you wouldn't die for an idea, would you die for another person?

This is a test, and only a test, of your beliefs, of what's so important to you that you'd risk you life. That's why I started this discussion with the quotations I did from whom I did.

The young believe they are immortal (until proven otherwise). But the general run of 'Catters are old enough to know they are not.

This is something I've been musing on for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 08:31 AM

"So then...would you throw yourself on a grenade to save wounded people who would otherwise be killed? Would you pull a child from in front of an oncoming train, knowing that YOU wouldn't make it? Would you give up your seat in a lifeboat to someone older than you? If you wouldn't die for an idea, would you die for another person?"

That is a very different question.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 08:41 AM

It depends on what you men by "Die for."

The phrase could mean:

1) To willingly perform an action which one knows will result in certain death. Think suicide bombers, kamikaze pilots. I hold no belief strongly enough to consider such a death.

2) To fight in armed conflict against an opposing force which threatens one's beliefs. Death is a recognized possibility, but survival is preferable. For me, it's sort of a moot subject since I'm too old for military service.

3) To be killed while exercising one's rights, beliefs or principles in a non-violent manner. Think Kent State, MLK, RFK. Death is a fairly remote possibility. I suppose there's a chance I might die by being clubbed at a peace march or shot while escorting women into abortion clinics. (Neither of these are activities in which I'm currently involved, but such involvement remains possible.)

4) To die in the course of one's professional obligations. Think police officers, first responders. Death is an occupational hazard. Not applicable to me.

5) To die in a spontaneous act of bravery. Think someone like Gamble Rogers, who drowned while saving someone else's life. Always a possibility. You never know until it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 08:48 AM

The belief that dying for a belief would be the waste of a good life.
What belief would I LIVE for, on the other hand....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,SPB at work
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:06 AM

The only belief would be to save the life of someone I love.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:11 AM

I can't think of any belief that I would die for - belief is, to me, just a strongly held opinion with no way to prove whether it is correct or not. I would uphold the right of any person to hold such a belief to the extent that it did not impinge on my rights or liberty but that is as far as I could go. I sometimes wonder, in the circumstances of the time, whether I would have been brave enough to hide or aid targeted members of society like the Jews in the 1940s or escaping slaves back in the 19th century. Maybe that would be a test of my belief that all people should have the right to life and liberty, regardless of colour or creed.

I would give up my seat in a lifeboat to somebody YOUNGER than me - I've had most of my life and would consider it wrong to condemn someone else to death who probably has less life experience and has the ability to be a more productive member of society.

I think the 'falling on a grenade' or pushing someone else to safety are really spur of the moment decisions and really do not know how I would react in those situations.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:27 AM

I'd like to echo what someone said earlier; I think the truest belief, that which COULD be worth dying for, is that everyone must be free to live as they choose.

Someone once said something to the effect of "I don't agree with what you say, but I would fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

I make choices in my personal and family life which run counter to the culture and socio-political climate in my area of the world. I MUST be free to make those choices, and so, despite my total disagreement with the lifestyle choices of many around me, I am passionate about their freedom to make those choices and live with them unhindered.

Hope that made sense; I'm still not all the way awake this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:52 AM

What you're passionate about and what you'll die for are not necessarily the same things. It depends on the situation. We can talk all we want about hypotheticals, but no one knows for sure what they'll die for until the actual situation itself is upon them.

And then they find out.

Some people, of course, are so damn proud that if they've openly said, "I will die for -----------, and then are confronted with that actual situation...well, they'll die for it out of sheer pride, because they damn well SAID they would! And they'd rather DIE than admit they might have been mistaken. This isn't so much a case of idealism, in my opinion, as it is a case of terminal stubborness, insecurity, and absolute unwillingness to alter any statement one has made.

One can see the same impulse behind most of the long-running arguments that crop up here on the political threads and other contentious subjects like that.

And then there are those who would rather die than stop talking. ;-D They----URK!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Big Ballad Singer
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:57 AM

Agreed, LH. I think there are plenty of people on both the right and the left who WOULD die for their "beliefs", insofar as the definition of "belief" is

"Whatever I did, said or professed in order to get me to the privileged position I enjoy today."

The would die for those beliefs NOT because they are true or noble, but because playing a certain ideological game was/is they way they "made it" and got rich and comfortable. They would die before giving up that luxury and comfort.

Ditto, of course, for the religiously zealous morons who would blow themselves up in public rather than admit that their "god" has no power over others, so they have to manufacture its "power" via C4 explosive.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:07 AM

Some people would willingly die for a belief. That includes Padre Tom, Japanese kamikaze pilots, suicide bombers, and the members of Heaven's Gate.

Far more, however, would be willing to *risk* death.

There's a difference.

Most causes depend overwhelmingly on the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 12:37 PM

Well, I know I'm an arrant coward and would grip on to life no matter what. And I suspect that in the event many who swore they'd be a hero would be just the same as me and save their own skin. I'm being honest.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:15 PM

Let's ask instead how many people would willingly be tortured to death for their beliefs. Does that make it a game changer?

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:27 PM

No one would willingly be tortured to death for anything, in my opinion...the key problem in that being "willingly"...but there are some people who will hold up for a very long time under torture. That can be for a variety of reasons, such as their own pride and defiance...or their desire to protect others or honor them in some way.

I agree with Lighter that the primary issue is whether people are willing to risk death on behalf of someone or something, and that is what most great heroism is dependent upon.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 01:46 PM

Bee-dub said:"It depends on what you mean by "Die for."

And specifically, whether you know that you will probably die due to some action or situation.

49 years ago, I faced 2 policemen on a dark street in Hattiesburg, Mississippi... (for about 5 minutes).. while walking with some young black kids on the way to a civil rights meeting. In similar confrontations in previous years... and subsequent years... very bad things happened to others while supporting the cause we were there for.   
In a 2nd trip, a few months later to McComb, we stayed in a house where, from the window, we could see another house that had been bombed a few months earlier. During that trip, I drove a car in order to keep the guys who were there for the long haul from being harassed and being charged with one more fake traffic charge. Could there have been an 'incident'? Maybe.... there wasn't.
Nothing serious happened to any of that little group that 1st night, either.... we walked on to the meeting after identifying ourselves. But in the back of my mind I knew that "things happen" that you cannot always predict.

Would I have put myself in that situation KNOWING that I was likely to die? Probably not... I doubt that my death would have directly served any clear purpose.... but I knew there was potential danger to the entire trip, even though 'things' were at a kind of lull and we were not there when emotions were at the highest.

Of course I would give my life for certain situations involving my family, my country- if attacked, or to overtly DO something to directly further certain causes. This is different from what Amos called "Becoming a random martyr..".

I hope I never have to face that decision......

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:03 PM

Most Americans aren't martyrs to noble ideas. A lot die for :

1) The idea that smoking is ok because you can quit any time.

2) The idea that you can eat what you want, when you want, and as much as you want.

3) The idea that drugs are "better living through chemistry".

4) Some drunk's idea that they can control a car.


And there is a least one more...BillD? 999? Lighter? Bobert and Ron Davies would get it, for sure, but they aren't on this thread...

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:08 PM

Ya got nothin' about sex in there, Stim.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:24 PM

Like many other would put my life on the line for my country, or to protect another person from harm

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:42 PM

If I saw someone older than me in a lifeboat, I'd wonder how they got into it.

Seriously, I can't answer the question. It's easy to say I would die for my country, but I think of General Patton when he said, "No son of a bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other son of a bitch die for HIS country."

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

5) The idea that traffic laws are 'merely suggestions', and don't apply if "things look clear"


etc.... one could make a LONG list of that sort, but it kinda gets away from the point.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 07:38 PM

I would defend loved ones to the death.(Someone elses)

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Janie
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 09:02 PM

particularly well said, BWL and Lightner.

Like you, Eliza, I don't know that I could act to save another person if I fully apprehended that in doing so I genuinely believed I was likely to die in the process.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:17 PM

The real question here, Rapparee, is not really about dying for someone else. It is about whether we, in life, have tended to be self-less or selfish.

When someone suffered, did we help them? When someone was hungry, did we feed them? When people were persecuted, did we intervene? When a friend needed money, did we give it? When children needed comfort...well, you know the drill...

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 10:55 PM

Do you mean, Stim, that some die for the idea that everybody should have access to guns?

But in all the cases you list, people are still only taking the risk (stupidly, of course) rather than going to certain death.

Suicide bombers and kamikaze pilots go/went to certain death for a cause. So did Christian martyrs, as well as many innocent people accused of heresy or witchcraft. So do soldiers who refuse to surrender - though in that situation, some may believe they can still escape, and some others may be more suicidal at that point than selfless.

Most people may be more ready to face certain death to save the lives of others, especially loved ones, than to further a cause.

Somebody once told me that if the only way he could save his own life was by exterminating everyone else, he'd gladly exterminate everyone else. Fortunately, he's not likely to be in that situation.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 11:24 PM

I think there's a need to repeat the post from Big Ballad Singer:

Agreed, LH. I think there are plenty of people on both the right and the left who WOULD die for their "beliefs", insofar as the definition of "belief" is

"Whatever I did, said or professed in order to get me to the privileged position I enjoy today."

The would die for those beliefs NOT because they are true or noble, but because playing a certain ideological game was/is they way they "made it" and got rich and comfortable. They would die before giving up that luxury and comfort.

Ditto, of course, for the religiously zealous morons who would blow themselves up in public rather than admit that their "god" has no power over others, so they have to manufacture its "power" via C4 explosive.

And when these people die for their beliefs, you can bet they'll take a lot of people with them, people who have no reason to want to die.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:03 AM

I am talking about people who have died, Lighter, and the ideas that justified the behavior that led to their deaths.

And, "Bingo!" you got the answer, or at least close. It isn't the availability of guns alone, it's the idea that it's OK to use those guns when one has a problem with others...

As for the martyrs, kamikazes, and suicide bombers,this article explains how suicide bombers are recruited and indoctrinated in Pakistan--Pakistan's Almost Suicide Bombers It seems that they are neither religious nor political,instead, they are naive and isolated, and have been cajoled to act using fear, intimidation, and brainwashing. One suspects that it has always been like that...

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:10 AM

Yeah.

Meanwhile, Stim really got to the heart of the matter, I think, when he said, "The real question here...is not really about dying for someone else. It is about whether we, in life, have tended to be self-less or selfish.

When someone suffered, did we help them? When someone was hungry, did we feed them? When people were persecuted, did we intervene? When a friend needed money, did we give it? When children needed comfort...well, you know the drill..."

Those are the essential questions right there.

It does say in the Bible, "What does it profit a man to gain the entire world, and lose his soul?" And what I take that to mean is...if you gain all kinds of material things and much worldly power, but you lose your integrity and your humanity in the process, you've lost everything that really matters. Spiritually speaking, you've become the equivalent of a dead man walking.

In regards to that: Notice how popular zombie films are lately? It figures. We live under a political/marketing system that basically promotes a zombie lifestyle as far as I can see....mindless comsumption...and a fascination with violence.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:52 AM

"Beliefs", however dearly-held they may be, are nothing but figments of a person's imagination. I may have a few, but I would not "die for" any of them, whatever that might mean. It's a nonsensical question.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:21 AM

Dying for a belief is a hell of a lot easier than living a belief, with dying you only have to do it once.


and as Bertrand Russell saqid, I wouldn't want to die for a belief, I might be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:21 AM

..oops, Bertrand Russell could spell :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:49 AM

I don't think any of us knows what we would do until we are faced with that decision.
Self preservation is natural.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:11 AM

Indoctrinated or not, they're still dying willingly for a belief.

Is it possible to go willingly to *certain* death for a belief without having been indoctrinated in some way at some time?

Of course, religious martyrs see death differently from the rest of us. They "know" they're headed for something better, so death becomes no more than an extreme test of faith and courage.

The overall value or relative sanity of belief doesn't matter. You've got your martyrs, your suicide bombers, your falsely accused witches, your kamikaze pilots, your IRA hunger strikers, and your Heaven's Gate types. I'm sure I've left some out. But it's quite a mixed bag. And some people - like soldiers who throw themselves on grenades - are acting so reflexively that the idea of an abstract "cause" (instead of the lives of others nearby) doesn't apply.

Falsely accused heretics who wouldn't "repent" were caught in a   double bind. If they swore falsely that they'd forsaken God, and saved themselves, God might send them to hell later for having sworn falsely. Dying now to prove their innocence forestalled that possibility.

But since the "cause" they were dying for was their personal salvation rather than some presumed public good, they seem to be in a special category too. The Jamestown and Heaven's Gate people didn't have much time to think it over, and may have been more sheeplike and disoriented than idealistic. That may put them out of the discussion too.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:47 AM

""So then...would you throw yourself on a grenade to save wounded people who would otherwise be killed? Would you pull a child from in front of an oncoming train, knowing that YOU wouldn't make it? Would you give up your seat in a lifeboat to someone older than you? If you wouldn't die for an idea, would you die for another person?""

I suspect that none of us can answer that question, simply because these are situations in which the saviour is usually making a split second decision withought conscious thought and so risking his life without the time to assess that risk.

Not so much "I'm going to die to save that kid", as "Oh Shit, I thought I could make it!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:50 AM

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: What Belief(s) Would You Die For?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:07 AM

As someone mention earlier, talk is cheap.