BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:36 PM

I recently started a thread and asked a simple question about a religion thing. The thread went to hell (joke).

But, within that thread, I asked a second simple question after the discussion went south and I grew tired of the bullshit bickering. NObody really addressed my initial question and they didn't address my second question so I figured I would start a new thread to ask a very simple question...

Do you know what heaven and hell are? What are they?

I would really like to know if anybody actually knows the concept of Heaven & Hell and would care to share their views in a mannerly way. Seems a LOT of people don't.

So... what is it and do you believe in it?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM

Complicated religious concepts with all sorts of wild-eyed mythology connected with them.

But I would say states of mind.

I'll put some serious thought to the matter and be back later. Good question, deserving of serious answers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:58 PM

"Do you know what heaven and hell are? What are they?"

No, I don't know for sure. I've considered various different theories about it, and there are a great many of them, but there's no way I can know for sure unless I directly experience heaven or hell, is there?

"Do you believe in it"

Yes...in a sort of general sense, but that would need considerable explanation.

No...in the sense of any absolutely specific definition of what it's supposed to be like. I have no direct experience of my own to go on, so how could I do anything but speculate about it? Other people's opinions can be interesting, but they're not a basis on which I would form a belief. Belief, after all, indicates certainty.

I have some possible theories about it.

Here's one: Heaven could be the most joyful state of consciousness. Hell could be the most painful, unpleasant or despairing state of consciousness. That's one way of looking at it.

Here's another: Heaven could be a state of feeling complete (fullfilled). Hell could be a state of feeling extremely incomplete and unfulfilled, and having no idea what to do about it.

Here's another: Heaven could be the experience of communion with all that one truly loves. Hell could be feeling totally alone, with no positive connection to anyone or anything.

I've seen a few people who were in a heaven-like state of mind, more than a few who were in a hellish state of mind, and a lot of others who were somewhere between those extremes. Most of us are somewhere between.

Are you asking about an afterlife? I think it's likely, it seems very likely to me, but I have no way of being absolutely certain about it...until I die.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:05 PM

I know what I was told when I was a child... and I know many opinions from various religious groups... and there are so many variations that it's hard to start.

I have an illustrated copy of Dante's Inferno (Gustave Doré's engravings) which may have done as much as anything to put images of Hell into Western culture.
I personally believe both are embroidered stories based on human hopes & fears as they try to make sense out of life and imagine what 'comes after'.

In many Asian religions there was no Heaven & Hell as such, but rather the Wheel of Saṃsāra.

I do kind of like Sartré's conclusion in "No Exit" that "Hell is other people"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:09 PM

Simple...

Yer current wife = Heaven

The ex = Hell

Wes Ginny Algebra...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:13 PM

It certainly seems like that at times, doesn't it, Bill? ;-)

I was told absolutely nothing about either heaven or hell when I was a child. Nada. Zip. I was told about all the usual stuff (money, furniture, family, relatives, neighbours, mathematics, books, science, machinery, politics, society, guns, history, war, art, food, house rules, etc.).

My parents were atheists. ;-) I never thought about stuff like heaven and hell when I was a child.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:17 PM

Hey, Bobert...I pretty much got the impression while I was growing up that marriage is hell. As a result, I never did marry, had no intention of doing so, but I have experienced both heaven and hell with girlfriends at various times anyway. It just didn't last as long as my parents' marriage did...(a lifetime).

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM

Same deal, LH... You got it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:23 PM

Whatever you make them. You define your own.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:28 PM

Wow. Some years back in my life, I could have given ya a nice simple relatively clear answer. Heaven is "where" (I don't think I would have really pointed up into space since I was very young) God is, and where people attuned to Him spend eternity with Him. Also in my early years, hell for me was a place of literal agony in flames, the destiny of those who didn't measure up to God's standards, and who didn't ask his forgiveness/accept Jesus's sacrifice/for their sins/shortcomings.

If "hell" has any meaning for me now, I guess it is alienation; from others, from "God", from one's best self. I absolutely reject a literal/fundamentalist "hell". Say for a moment that "Osama Bin Laden definitely deserved to go to hell". Then think with me; he is dropped into searing flames. He is there in agony for three hundred sixty five billion years as punishment for the first of the victims of 9/ii. Then three hundred sixty five billion years for the next victim. Except it doesn't really work that way. He is now actually no closer to relief from total agony than he was 770 billion years before. And, to the true-blue fundamentalist, Osama is accompanied there by millions of decent people whose downfall was...failing to accept Jesus.

I've been so conditioned to think of Heaven in terms of eternal peaceful fellowship with God, that is still there in my mind. But I have no real conviction now that I'll ever know any "Heaven" except that my wife survived last summer and is still with me, I have some very dear family and friends, and I've learned something of the best hearts of even a lot of people I may never meet in person, thinking especially just now of Nigel Patterson's thread here.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:50 PM

I really don't believe in an afterlife, although I occasionally make jokes about it. Over the years, I have come to think of Heaven as the state of being aware that one is not only in the presence of the divine principle, but also playing in the same jam session and keeping up nicely. As for Hell, like others with experience of untreated clinical depression, I passed through one of its suburbs once and was lucky enough to find the highway again more by accident than by design.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:11 PM

They are metaphorical terms describing the condition into which the individual soul can arrive by tending or neglecting its own integrity, clarity, and karma.

The karma is aways running into stray dogma, which makes the whole situation hard to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:32 PM

My life partner, Susan Urban, and I have a Unitarian/Universalist service on the very notion. I remember having a stoned conversation with another friend where we thought if you were into materialistic things when you died, where you went would be like hell. If you were not into that sort of thing, it would seem like heaven. I could send you what the whole homilies were if you wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:10 AM

gnu, I think that everyone has to find out in their own heart what heaven or hell means to them. Nobody else can decide that for you, but there's no harm in people discussing what they think about it. If they're willing to respect one another, it could be quite illuminating.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:28 AM

I too have fairly vague notions regarding heaven and hell.
Though I was raised in the concept of "ever-lasting punishment with unrelenting agony of burning and unquenchable thirst" it amazes me that I believed it and feared it for as long as I did.

If there is a god, vengeful or otherwise, then, yes, I can believe that extinguishment is a possibility. I can even accept that any creator has the right to knock down the tower of blocks.

But hell as in the first depiction? Nah. For one reason: We know instinctively that to torture is wrong, is evil. And a creation cannot be better than its creator.

And heaven? There have been brief periods in my life that felt like heaven. A period of time and space where I was exactly where I wanted to be and doing what I wanted to be doing and with exactly the right people around me.

A literal heaven? I suspect that "heaven" is a transitional place, a graduation if you will, a completion of one level.

A little segue here: Has it ever occurred to you that Zeus and Athena and all the rest may be our gods in reality? Yoicks.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:48 AM

"We know instinctively that to torture is wrong, is evil."

Exactly. So it's ridiculous to imagine that God would do something like that to people who are purportedly His/Her own children! Though my parents certainly made some mistakes in bringing me up, I'm very glad they didn't put the idea of a vengeful God into my head. It would have been nice, though, if they'd put the idea of a loving God into my head...it would've helped.

Oh, well, it worked out pretty well anyway, so why complain?

Zeus and Athena and the other Greek gods and goddesses were an interesting and entertaining lot, but they seem to have had a penchant for all the same competitive, nasty mindgames that people waste their time on, and that seems odd to me. It worked for the Greeks, though. ;-) They clearly saw the gods and goddesses of their pantheon as larger and more powerful versions of themselves, afflicted with the same strengths and weaknesses...but with greater authority. That makes no sense to me.

Native Americans spoke of a Great Spirit (or Great Mystery) that was the source of all existence and of all life...not a god or goddess, but a universal, immeasurable, infinite source. That makes more sense to me than a pantheon of human-like gods and goddesses, because they are just too small to believe in.

The Infinite is implicit in everything that exists...and it's limited to no one thing or expression. That means it doesn't begin or end anywhere, but is simply everywhere. That's something big enough for me to believe in...or at least consider worth believing in.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:59 AM

Fiction, is what they are. Figments of the human mind which is desperate for meaning.

John Lennon had it right:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky


Anything we imagine beyond that gives rise to the dangerous mental illness known as religious faith.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 03:57 AM

What are heaven and hell? Well, I think that Europeans and their offspring got most of their concepts from Dante, but where did Dante get his ideas from? It the Divine Comedy almost entirely from his imagination mixed with a bit of scripture, or are there folkloric sources also?

In general, I prefer not to speculate, but I do have some general idea of heaven as being absorbed into the One, the unity of all with God (or if no God, then just the unity of all). Some theologians speculate that if God is as good as we claim God to be, then hell could not be God's creation - that it is built somehow by the evil that exists in humankind. Most progressive theologians seem to think that if there is a hell, not many people go there.

But I don't think about heaven or hell very much. I focus my life on the present, of drawing as much as I can out of the current moment. I was raised in a Catholic family and went through 16 years of Catholic education (half of that in a Catholic seminary), and I didn't really get very much exposure to thinking about heaven and hell.

Works for me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:31 AM

I suppose you need to differentiate between seeing them as what you wish for versus what you hope you don't get, or what you are promised versus what you are threatened with.

The former is using terms to describe your own take on life and the latter is the take others wish to prescribe.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:51 AM

"What are heaven and hell? Well, I think that Europeans and their offspring got most of their concepts from Dante," Joe wrote above.

Right. And another source to be mentioned is the C18 Swedish scientist & occasional mystic Swedenborg, who published a book called Heaven & Hell. It's not easy reading ~~ in my literarily conscientious youth I found a Penguin edition, which I still have somewhere I think, and did my best to read it, tho much of it was pretty heavy going. I simply mention it here as a reference for any who want to follow up the topic. There are good Wikipedia entries on the author & his book.

HTH

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:04 AM

It seems very unlikely to me that there's an afterlife, so in that respect the concepts have no meaning for me.

In terms of consciousness or state of mind while alive, people can be in either a joyful or despairing state, sure, but not continuously, or there's be no yardstick to measure the feeling.

If you were always in the same blissful state of joyful consciousness, how would you *know* that this was a "good" state unless you'd also had a taste of unhappiness or despair to calibrate against?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:14 AM

As hell is a Christian construct, I'll stick with primary source. On the other thread mg replied stating that hell was a fiery pit in which you are roasted for eternity (approx) and it certainly seems like the Bible agrees with that. As to what metaphorical places different denominations of Christianity imagine, I've no clue.

Cut & Paste from: http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/hell.html

"3. What is Hell really?

Hell is a place of flaming fire.

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

II Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"
II Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Mark 9:44 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:45 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Mark 9:46 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Mark 9:47 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:"
Mark 9:48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Hell is a place of smothering smoke.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Hell is a place of dismal darkness.

Jude 1:13 "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

Hell is a place screaming and wailing.

Matthew 22:13 "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Hell is a place of everlasting chains.

Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Hell is a place of flesh-eating worms.

Isaiah 14:9 "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."
Isaiah 14:10 "All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"
Isaiah 14:11 "Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."
Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

Hell is a place of no rest day nor night – no sleep.

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.""

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:40 AM

"As hell is a Christian construct"...
.,,.
In the main, indeed; though Isaiah & probably Jude which you cite CS, are pre-Xtn. Tho many regard Isaiah as proleptic and predictive of Christ's coming, this would clearly not be a Jewish view. But the concept of Hell is generally, in its Biblical citations, NT rather the OT otherwise; though there are some refs to Gehenna, a sort of Jewish equivalent named after a valley near Jerusalem where human sacrifices took place in evil times.

Wikipedia ~ "This article is about the Biblical term that has been interpreted as analogous to the concept of "Hell" or "Purgatory". For other uses, see Gehenna (disambiguation).
Main article: Jewish eschatology
Valley of Hinnom, c. 1900
Gehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.
Originally, it was believed that this was a location where children were sacrificed to Moloch, hence from the perspective of the authors of the Hebrew Bible, it was deemed to be cursed.[1]
In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell."

OT refs are given in the rest of this article in wiki. But this is not altogether the Christian 'Hell", which appears indeed, apart fom that one mention in Isaiah, to be a later concept. The Gospels quote Jesus' use of the term, saying e.g. that anyone who, in anger, called his brother a fool was "in danger of Hellfire", Matt V.22.; and Jesus was a Jew, of course, tho he had clearly his own theological glosses on many of that faith's traditions an teachings.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:45 AM

Interesting!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 05:53 AM

This is taken from a Bible... is not my personal interpretation!
What is hell like?
>>>>>>>>>>There are two descriptions of hell in the Bible. One is of burning fire.. Jesus often used the word Gehenna to describe hell. Gehenna was the refuse dump outside Jerusalem that was always on fire. Jesus said hell is a place of worms, maggots, fire and trouble. FGrom that we get the image of the lake of fire and the concept of perpetual burning. The evil ones there are full of remorse and torment. (Mark 9:43-48)
Jesus said hell would be 'outer darkness'... weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 18:12). Here the image is one of terrible loneliness: separation from God and man. Those who are consigned to hell will be put into the inky blackness of eternity, with nobody to turn to or talk to- constantly alone. They will suffer the remorse of knowing they had the opportunity to come into Heaven with God but turned it down. The Bible speaks of a lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41) Human beings were never intended to go into hell, but the ones who chose to reject God will one day follow satan right into this eternal torment. There will be no exit from hell, no way out, no second chance. That is why it is so important in this life to reveive the pardon that God extends to all men through the Cross of Jesus Christ (Rev 20:11-15<<<<<<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:53 AM

Human beings were never intended to go into hell, but the ones who chose to reject God will one day follow satan right into this eternal torment. There will be no exit from hell, no way out, no second chance. That is why it is so important in this life to reveive the pardon that God extends to all men through the Cross of Jesus

To paraphrase Frank Zappa : if hell there is, then it is reserved exclusively for those who not only believe in it, but routinely take delight in condemning others to it on account of the somewhat warped tenets of their utterly idiotic faith. If heaven there is, OTOH, it's there for the rest of us who just want to quietly get on with our lives without consigning people to eternal torment for the expedient of simply being human. Burn again, Christians!

Otherwise, whilst the reality of hell is confined to the maggot-ridden brains of lunatic who choose to believe in it, the historic iconography of hell has long intrigued me. I adore the imps, devils, demons that run riot over the churches & cathedrals of the middle-ages. I especially love the medieval depictions of the Harrowing of Hell in which Christ liberates souls through the mouth of hell which is invariably depicted as simulacrum of female genitalia in a double symbolism of rebirth on the one hand and luscious drooling fragrant blossoming sinful dripping pussy lust on the other.   

And then, of course, there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr00G-UMgVU

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:31 AM

Excellent discussion. Much appreciated. Thanks. I hope it continues.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:33 AM

"Women are the only heaven. Marriage is the only hell" - Abiezer Coppe, according to Leon Rosselson and (probably) Christopher Hill, but I can't find the book just now.

Human beings were never intended to go into hell

I wonder why he created them then, since, being omniscient, he knew that some (according to some believers the vast majority) would go to hell and, being omnipotent, he had the choice of creating the Universe in a different way.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

Reduced to the simplest terms, a stick and a carrot for the faithful.

Hell awaits if you disobey.
Heaven is the reward for doing what you are told.

When I was a kid, it was the bogeyman who dealt with naughty children (so we were told).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:52 AM

Used to be a gay nightclub, in Brighton.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:06 AM

& a coffee bar in Soho ~~ Greek St, I think ~~ I used to meet my girlfriend Jackie there in 1957. Or maybe it was in The Strand. Ah me; my memory is not what it was ~~ how hellish!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:13 AM

Best answer yet!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:15 AM

Meaning Johns post re gay club

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:31 AM

Heaven:
What the Human Species is capable of Creating.

Hell:
What the Human Species is capable of Creating.

Purgatory:
Where the Human Species finally decides which it WILL Create.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:15 AM

Heaven is being one with god. Hell is being apart from god.

The name Hell comes from Scandinavian mythology. She is the equivalent of Hades in Greek mythology.
Remove hell and Christianity pretty much falls apart.

It's up to each of us what we need to believe. I'm a Deist; the creator gave me an inquiring mind, one that questions everything, and I doubt that he/she/it will punish me for using it.

To me, all religions are superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:22 AM

As I said before, you create your own Heaven and Hell, whether or not there's an afterlife, a mandala, or even being chained to a rock with vultures eating away you liver for Eternity.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:31 AM

"L'enfer, c'est les autres," usually translated as "Hell is other people."

Jean Paul Sartre.

I'd better go there, as if I went to the other place, I wouldn't know anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:45 AM

It's a fear tactic used by fundamentalists to control others. It's sort of like Grimms Fairy Tales used to scare children into good behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:21 PM

when Hell freezes over

(Note.. Dante used images of the damned frozen in eternal ice for his 9th circle)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:41 PM

Heaven is the smell of roasting coffee beans drifting down the street.

Hell is knowing that the taste of that coffee will never be as good as the smell of the roasting beans...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Hell is also referred to as "sheol" (Hebrew word) in a number of places in the Bible. Sheol simply means "the grave".

People decide for themselves whether the various descriptions of hell in various Bible passages should be interpreted literally or metaphorically. I doubt that most of them were intended literally, and I also think that unless you can place yourself in the mindset of the social culture at the time the biblical passages were written, you will very often be misled as to the meaning of the words used.

We use common language now in all kinds of ways which someone 2,000 years from now would be very much misled by, and it has always been so.

So, a study of ancient writings in any tradition needs to be accompanied also by a study of that ancient culture and the common ideas of the time if one is to understand what one is reading.

Rob Naylor - Way up there in the posts you said something quite interesting: "If you were always in the same blissful state of joyful consciousness, how would you *know* that this was a "good" state unless you'd also had a taste of unhappiness or despair to calibrate against?"

Good point. We do gain perspective and understanding from experiencing all the various ups and downs in life...just as we develop character by encountering difficulties, and grow strong overcoming adversity. We (hopefully) gain compassion for others through experiencing pain ourselves. We appreciate plenty by experiencing scarcity. All of this is very useful on the path of evolution, the path of maturing, the path of gaining wisdom.

This can make a pretty good argument for why God wouldn't just swoop down one day and make everything perfect, doesn't it? If He/She/It did, we'd be deprived of the opportunity to find our own wings, deprived of the chance to learn through experience, deprived of the chance to reach our true potential through using our mental and moral muscles.

If you do that for a child...simply remove every obstacle and provide a surfeit of every desirable circumstance...what happens? The child gets spoiled, bored, and does not mature. Challenges are good. Without them, how would we learn to become our own best selves?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM

How about the smell of freshly ground coffee?    That's heavenly.   And I don't like coffee in the least. Humans are funny in a lot of ways.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

It is a good smell. And I don't like coffee anymore either.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:18 PM

kendall - PM
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:15 AM

"Heaven is being one with god. Hell is being apart from god."

OK- a bit of religious history here:

Christians speak of Jesus's sacrifice as being superlative, the ultimate altruism, in his choosing to die on a cross, to be killed for humankind.

That has never made sense to me. To be crucified was not an uncommon way to die - even in the biblical story, a common thief was condemned to die on the cross.

So that cannot be the point. If human being were capable of identifying with ants, say, became aware of their problems and discovered that if s/he sacrificed their life, knowing that s/he would then return to life as a human being, I have little doubt but that someone would do it.

Where the sacrifice comes in, I believe, is not the dying on the cross but the necessary separation from God.

And perhaps, that is what hell is: Separation from God.

Thus spake Ebbie, product of longtime indoctrination.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM

Could be, Ebbie. If by "God" we mean: every good thing that there is....then separation from God would indeed be hell, wouldn't it?

I've been somewhat puzzled by the traditional notion of Jesus' "sacrifice" too, but not because he died in an ordinary way. That's neither here nor there. It doesn't matter which way he died. All that matters is, what was his own personal nature? What was he doing? And why? The degree of his sacrifice would depend on those factors.

For a comparison to explain what I mean: If the English army in the early 1400s had siezed a young French girl who had never done anything of particular note and burned her at the stake in Rouen...would we be hearing about it till today? No, we wouldn't. Actually, the English troops killed a great many young women, men, children, whoever they wanted to kill all across about half of France in those days, and they did burn some of them, but we don't know the names of most of those people.

But when they burnt Joan of Arc in Rouen, they did something that will not be forgotten! Why? Because Joan was a remarkable individual who had done extraordinary things to help many people. That made her innocent sacrifice an enormous event with reverberations that are still being felt today.

The thing that is significant about Jesus being innocently sacrificed is likewise that he was a remarkable individual who had done extraordinary things to help many people. How he died (on the cross) is not the point. What he had done before he died, his character, and what he died FOR is the point. That made the event extraordinary, and that's why he is still remembered, while thousands of other people who died similarly on the cross are not.

People long remember those whom they care deeply about.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 03:40 PM

One could write all kinds of lengthy treatise on this subject, but after giving it a good think and reading some of the (quite lengthy and verbose) commentaries above, I come to the conclusion than Don(Wyziwyg)T nailed it quite succinctly in his post at 18 Mar 13 - 07:36 a.m. above.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Kenny B Sans kuki
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:16 PM

To a masochist heaven is hell and to sadist hell is heaven and for all those in between .... its just what you make it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 04:33 PM

He said:

Reduced to the simplest terms, a stick and a carrot for the faithful.

Hell awaits if you disobey.
Heaven is the reward for doing what you are told.

But what would we call it when an idealistic cop or teacher advises a young gang member as follows: "Look, Jason, if you keep hanging with the gangs and dealing crack, you are going to wind up very badly...in jail or dead. Is that what you want? Why not instead go back to school, obey your parents, obey the law, and then I won't be on your back anynmore, will I? And you can have a good future ahead of you, get a good job, find a nice girl, and live a happy family life. What's it gonna be, Jason? What future do you want for yourself?"

The cop (or teacher) just offered the crack-dealing kid a carrot and a stick.

What exactly is wrong with offering a person a carrot and a stick if it is done with a positive intent? We do it all the time with our own children when we're bringing them up.

What Don T. appears to be ojecting to is the very idea OF organized religion per se, rather than the concept of the carrot and the stick.

Every crucial decision we face between making a serious mistake and not making it does involve a carrot and a stick if you are capable of seeing the situation clearly.

Religious teachings in all cultures and religions advise people not to be cruel, selfish, criminal, violent, greedy, unloving, etc...or there will be negative consequences. Will anyone here assert that there are no negative consequences to such negative behaviour? We can argue till the cows come home about what form those consequences will take, but they will definitely come in one form or another. In India they call that "karma".

We all know about the carrot and the stick, and we face it everwhere in life, not just in religion.

If Don's objecting to a religion based on fear, well, then, we're on the same page. I'm not at all attracted to religious groups that use fear as a motivator. I'm attracted to those who use love, idealism, and a sense of responsibility and community as motivators.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:02 PM

There is nothing wrong with the carrot and the stick analogy in many situations. "If you work productively, you will be rewarded." Carrot. "If you lead a life of crime, you'll eventually wind up in jail." Stick.

But religion should be a matter of choice, not of coercion. And the carrot and stick is counterproductive in that context.

For example, who is the better person, someone who does good works because he genuinely feels it's the right thing to do and because he wants to, or the person who does good works, not because he cares for others in the least, but because he's afraid if he doesn't, he'll go to hell?

The outward results may be the same, but the motivation of the two people is far different. One out of love for others (deemed to be a Christian value) and the other out of fear of the consequences.

Who, then, would God judge to be the better person?

Which, within some religious denominations or churches, is the issue. Some of them use the Heaven or Hell issue for reasons of secular power, such as getting their congregations to beggar themselves by making lavish contributions to the church, or voting a particular way the church favors.

=======

Back in the days, the Church was "selling indulgences." Offering the very large carrot of being able to buy one's way into heaven—with the implied stick of hell if one doesn't, hovering in the background. The wealthy could buy their way into heaven by making a lavish contribution to the Church. The popes where still trying to pay off the mortgage on St. Peter's and Michelangelo had to be paid for decorating the Sistine Chapel. The Church needed money. So they set up a turnstile and charged for getting into heaven.

The idea that the wealthy could bribe their way into heaven, and that the Church was selling this idea to obtain funds was one of several things the Church was up to that really got up Martin Luther's nose.

He did a bit of raging and storming.

Hence, the birth of Protestantism (i.e. protesting against this scam the Church was peddling). The carrot and the stick of Heaven and Hell to manipulate people for secular purposes (such as fund raising).

God, Who is the Ultimate Judge, Luther maintained, doesn't work that way. He sees into every heart and judges that way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:45 PM

Don... well said. And you struck on my fundamental belief in the concept, as have others, but they have not put it so simply. Still, I am pondering my explanation... my belief. All of this gives me food for thought and the insightful and thought provoking posts are a breath of fresh air.

I was inspired to ask this question because of a poem/song I wrote when I was a teenager. I remembered it after my other thread went south. Odd how the memory gets jogged. It was an 'OH... yeah!' moment.