BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:10 AM

Hotel California? Could be either......

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:32 AM

I think everyone on this thread had equally valid things to say about Heaven and Hell, though Steve Shaw seems to have confused the concept of Heaven with that of pleasure and Hell with mild discomfort. But if you wanted his beliefs about those things you got it poetically and in spades. Steve seems to be a person who has intense feelings about mundane things and seems happy with that range of emotional experience. I see nothing wrong with that.

Well this works only if you are so rigid in your own concept of heaven and hell that you can only operate by trying to align alternative views with your own, finding they don't fit, then firing imperialist barbs. My starting point, as an atheist and adherent of evolution, is that I am here because I'm one of the rarest phenomena in the universe, an evolutionary winner. The chances of my existence at all, bearing in mind the billions of other sperms, the thousands of other eggs, the myriad possible combinations thereof, the multiplication of those numbers generation after generation and the sheer scale of death, disease, predation and destruction in the struggle for existence, are as near to zero as you can get without it actually being zero. If I take pleasure in the mundane (which you are confusing with my thanking my lucky stars for being here at all and my desire to make the most of it), then I feel sorry for you if you think that there are "mundane" things in creation or in human endeavour and imagination. I'm glad you like the poetry.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 09:18 AM

Don't forget, Steve, Shane McBride thinks of himself as an evolutionary winner too! ;-D

(That's a joke, mate.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 09:21 AM

The poetry of the situation so well postulated there by Steve will be found also in Aldous Huxley's

"A million million spermatozoa,
All of them alive:
Out of their cataclysm but one poor Noah
Dare hope to survive.
And among that billion minus one
Might have chanced to be
Shakespeare, another Newton, a new Donne -
But the One was Me."

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 10:20 AM

Of course I take pleasure in the mundane.
and I derive sadness from pain
But do I have to explain
its just chemical reactions in my animal brain.

When your eggs start to smell
that isn't hell
when you bread leavens
It is not heaven

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:07 PM

I am impressed with the frankness of much of this thread.

But I am puzzled by the strong assertion that forgiving oneself is not possible. In my lexicon, all the priests and totems in the Universe cannot fully execute forgivenerss until one has forgiven oneself; and conversely if one does so honestly, no jujus are necessary to the process. But genuine honesty with self is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:16 PM

With my 130+ hours of classes in Philosophy dangling 'round my neck like an albatross, I read phrases like "spend eternity" with pedantic fervor.

If one means literally "spend eternity" as a consciousness, then I can only shrug, as I have no sense that my current consciousness extends past my moment of death, so I can treat Heaven & Hell only as linguistic concepts. When I reach the moment of my death (assuming I am aware) I may indeed 'reflect' on my life,: as gnu says "As you are dying, you will be judged. You will be judged by you."
However, I doubt that I must wait until that final moment to have an opinion of how I have conducted my life. At my age, I have thousands of data points to give me a sense of the balance between Heavenish & Hellish parts of my life. I don't feel like I'm close to the end,(who knows?) so I always am able to *choose* stuff that makes me more content with my efforts.
   I guess I feel like even using the terms Heaven & Hell is falling into a linguistic trap that distorts my own attitude toward life & death.

............but you asked. (27 more paragraphs redacted, thus reducing the total blather I could inflict on everyone here. I feel better already.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:27 PM

To Aldous Huxley and Steve Shaw:

Had you not been born, there would be another born with your consciousness so that would still be you.

Got it? :)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 01:20 PM

Ah, Ebbie... we must discuss that sometime... *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM

Is consciousness hormones and electrical impulses buzzing around in the meat computers we call our brains or is it more?

Do we have souls?

Is there something after death.

Gnu's description makes me think of our souls as binary switches having only two possible values, "self-forgiven" & "Not self-forgiven" I can see that the inability to change these values once you are dead makes them "eternal" ie, not changable from that point on. Also Bill makes a good point that, you have time to influence these values up until the time that you die. He implies that if you want a certain value when you die, you are best advised to work on it now and that implies that the whether or not you are forgiven by yourself depends entirely on you. Forgive me if I have read to much into your statements Bill but I am trying you reconcile your logic with Gnu's.

Christianity in virtually every form says that we can gain forgiveness for ourselves for all of our transgressions at any moment in our lives, including the last moment, by accepting Christ as our savior. Gnu says we judge ourselves. I think that is very consistent with Christian thought. For the trick is not to simply accept Christ's forgiveness, but to do so wholeheartedly, and most importantly in light of Gnu's philosophy, sincerely.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 01:23 PM

The fact that no one can produce evidence that there is no god is still a logical fallacy, you can't prove a negative. With this logic, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the floating teapot in the sky exists because there's no proof that they don't.

There's no proof that what you perceive is just a dream and not reality.

Scientific proof is the only means to verify reality. Anything else is simply delusion.

Had you not been born, there would be no other with exactly the same brain, therefore no "you", as consciousness emanates from the brain. I get that.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

Bill, Since you have no belief in "Heaven and Hell" as Gnu sees it, it must be very difficult maybe impossible for you to describe it. Thank you for trying and for injecting some interesting logic into the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 01:37 PM

"Do you know what heaven and hell are? What are they?

I would really like to know if anybody actually knows the concept of Heaven & Hell and would care to share their views in a mannerly way."

Above is the topic of discussion of the thread. Stringsinger, is it reasonable to say that you believe and are saying that in your opinion "Heaven and Hell" are "delusions" or have you been drawn off topic.

If you are simply addressing Ebbie's point please consider the ":)" and think about whether she wanted it to be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:03 PM

Blake had an interesting conception of heaven and hell. From The Marriage Of Heaven And Hell:

Without Contraries is no progression. Attraction and Repulsion,
Reason and Energy, Love and Hate, are necessary to Human existence.
From these contraries spring what the religious call Good & Evil.
Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing
from Energy. Good is Heaven. Evil is Hell.

Whilst on Blake, how about this for refutation that there is such a dismal concept as "the mundane":

"To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour"

I like this a lot, though in other ways Blake could get a bit mystical for my taste. I wonder whether he thought he was, or whether that's just the way we've come to see him. I thing the most extraordinary thing about the world around us is the sheer, wonderful ordinariness of it all, the utter normality. There's plenty enough to revel in. I don't want some extra mysterious sheen on it all that I can never quite reach. I just don't think that's the way things are. The mysteries of the downright ordinary stuff will do me. I think "the mundane" can only be the invention of tired minds.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:37 PM

Ah the Mudcat! Thank you catters! Helluva long thread, but with some heavenly bits. Don't usually have the patience for longer threads, but I wanted to thank you folk. Now I'm off to work on a musical setting for William Blake's The Proverbs of Hell from The Marriage of Heaven and Hell.
keep on pickin'
dennis

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

Jack said, "the trick is not to simply accept Christ's forgiveness, but to do so wholeheartedly, and most importantly in light of Gnu's philosophy, sincerely."

EXACTLY!!!

Just to utter a few rote words according to accepted ceremony or tradition means little or nothing. You have to mean it deeply, sincerely, with the full committment of your mind, your heart, your soul, and your whole strength. That takes some considerable thought and hard work...and it usually takes some time to accomplish. It might take weeks, months or years. It isn't just a question of saying in a few short seconds "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour" and then imagining that you are home free from that moment on.

You might fool someone else, you might even fool yourself, but you sure won't fool that which can save you.

string - I don't think consciousness emanates FROM the brain. Not at all. I think it was there before the brain and uses the brain as a receiver. I think it passes THROUGH the brain which serves as an excellent transmittor/receiver (just like a radio receiving a program and transmitting it). The brain is then used to direct that consciousness throughout the rest of the body, via the nervous system. I think consciousness existed long before the body in question, that it helped build the body cell by cell right from the moment of conception, that it maintains the body as long as the body is still alive, and that it survives the body and departs from it when the body dies...and that it continues on to do a great deal more very creative work long after that.

I expect you won't agree with that, because there's no physical proof (for or against what I said). Fine. No problem. We are each expressing whatever we think about the subject, and it's okay if we disagree.

I only demand physical proof of things which are susceptible TO physical proof, and what we're talking about here (heaven, hell, afterlife, soul, etc) is not and cannot be...because it's not anything definable in physical terms. It's not among a list of identifiable physical or energetic items or phenomena in this observable Universe, therefore it can't be examined, proven, or disproven in a physical way...by machinery...through a microscope...in a test tube...etc.

And neither can my love for whatever or whomever I love....but my love is real. And so are a number of other extremely valuable forces/principles/factors in life which no one can ever prove through any measurable phenomena. They are subjective matters, not objective things. They are not found in any outer phenomena, but are experienced inside the human heart, and they are only experienced through our consciousness.

That is what the spiritual search is about: Consciousness. Governance of consciousness. Raising of consciousness. Improving one's consciousness. Turning from hate and fear to love.   Purificatation of consciousness. It is in no way opposed to science, but cooperates fully with science in any situation where science can usefully be applied. No serious spiritual student I've ever known was opposed in any way to science or to the scientific method. I've always believed in science without question. That's what they call a no-brainer. ;-) It's totally obvious that science is a good and useful discipline. I only came to believe in spirituality later, when I realized there was a bunch of other really important stuff in life that science couldn't help me with at all, because science simply has no means of effectively dealing with it. You cannot grasp a moral ideal in a pair of plyers or look at it under a microscope...but without a coherent, loving, and wise set of moral ideals as your foundation for action, you are nothing much more than a dangerous animal.

And we all probably pass people like that on the street every day. What do they believe in? They believe in themselves. Maybe they beieve in money too. Or possessions. They believe in winning. Survival of the fittest. They're "looking out for number 1". And that may be all they care about...because it's all they have yet consented to understand. I call that the equivalent of "walking around dead"...but to them they're just playing what they think is the only game in town. Real love doesn't even exist in that game.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:47 PM

hey Steve! I had not refreshed, so you were referencing Blake before me ... nother cool thing about the Cafe ...
I was thinking of Huxley after he was cited ... thread drift is inevitable and xcusable, but I've appreciated a great many of your contributions...
pickin' and grinnin'
dennis

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:47 PM

"Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing
from Energy." Sorry, Mr.Blake, but that part just looks to me like oddball notion, if not just mumbo jumbo. Does anyone else see worthwhile meaning there?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:19 PM

I don't think Blake has expressed it very well.

I'd say that Good is the impulse to love life and to love others, and that Evil is the direct result of a fear-driven impulse to simply grab whatever you can get, because you regard everyone and everything else as either a threat...or an opportunity. And...it's the result of thinking that you're "number one" and that everybody else is, like I said, either a desirable opportunity or a competitive threat.

The latter attitude of "looking out for number one" is so common and so institutionalized in this world by governments, schools, and big business that it pretty much dominates most of society, restricted only by people's fear of what their society may do to them...if they take it too far by breaking the civil laws.

Short of that, they are mostly encouraged (specially by the world of commercial advertising) to be self-centred, greedy, acquisitive, vain, insecure, jealous, competitive, and heavily addicted to one thing or another. It all makes money for someone if they are.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:32 PM

"Good is the passive that obeys Reason. Evil is the active springing
from Energy."

Unless Blake means that "Evil is entropy and good is using reason and effort to postpone it," and there is a case to be made for for that point of view. I haven't a clue either frogprince. And with that I am grasping at metaphoric straws.

I do get the part about Heaven and Hell being necessary opposites though.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:48 PM

Good is "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
Evil is failing to do onto others as they would do onto you.

This covers every moral issue except the Commandments about loving God. Make God your neighbor, make the world your neighbor for the purposes of these instructions and every sin or act or emotion possible is covered.

The beauty is not that you don't have to know what is ultimately good or bad for others, just that you filter their point of view through yours.

Would you want your neighbor to pollute the stream going through your property? No? Then don't do it to them. Would you want your son sent to an unjust war? Would you want your property stolen? Etc.. etc..

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:11 PM

Well, I suppose I ask for it when I quote bleeding chunks of Blake. I think it would be good, before having a go at the poor chap for not expressing himself very well, to look deeper at the two references in that post of mine. It'll be one of your more enjoyable googles, I promise. I actually think he's rather good at expressing ideas, getting to the heart of things. Poetry without hard labour, art concealing art. He's a free spirit who can be exasperating. He's almost an exact contemporary of Beethoven, my favourite free spirit of all (er, along with Darwin...), who could also be exasperating. That's free spirits for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:14 PM

Good is "Love thy neighbor as thyself."
Evil is failing to do onto others as they would do onto you.

This covers every moral issue except the Commandments about loving God. Make God your neighbor, make the world your neighbor for the purposes of these instructions and every sin or act or emotion possible is covered.

Ah, I see that you really do dig the concept of the mundane!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:38 PM

Yes mundane. Mundane the way E=MC2 is mundane.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 04:54 PM

You're absolutely right in what you say, Jack. Love God. Love one another. Act accordingly. There's nothing mundane about the Golden Rule. It's a very simple concept, yes...but that doesn't mean that the average ego doesn't find it pretty challenging at times...since the average ego seems to prefer to "look out for number one" most of the time.

What really horrifies me is the self-serving Neocon philosophical viewpoints in vogue with accolytes of Ayn Rand who attempt to argue things like: selfishness is a "good thing", and that being rich is clear evidence that one is a superior person favored by God! I am reminded of Scribes, Pharisees, and Robber Barons of the past when I hear that kind of stuff...the privileged and merciless few trying to claim that they are God's Chosen, while the only thing they really give a damn about is lining their own pockets and living high at the rest of society's expense.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 05:16 PM

frogprince: Blake's Proverbs of Hell, which I have been grappling with for well over four decades, is packed with the seemingly trivial ["mundane"] and the "oddball wacky" bits one encounters in his writing, but overwhelmingly with quite profound ones--all of which must be taken as "infernal wisdom". Easily misconstrued or misunderstood out of context, Blake is a tough enough nut to crack within his context. I'll leave you with this one, probably my favourite:

The most sublime act is to set another before you.

keep on pickin'
dennis

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 05:21 PM

That is well said. I suspect that Blake, like anyone else, needs to be read in context in order to really appreciate what he has to say.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:18 PM

"The most sublime act is to set another before you."

With fava beans an a nice Chianti?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:26 PM

I really had no intention to either hassle Steve for quoting Blake, or to slam dunk Blake. Just looked at those two little sentences and scratched my head. This is a really good thread for inducing some worthwhile head-spinning.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:35 PM

FP, I agree that the Bake quotes are an interesting topic. I am not so certain that they belong on Gnu's thread in so much as they only address the topic from a tangent. I think I may read about Blake. I guess I will start with Wiki.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:59 PM

Good to see you feeling uncomfortable, Jacko. Whatever else you discover in your Blake studies, I guarantee you won't find the mundane.

Good man yerself, Dr Word! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:22 PM

To Aldous Huxley and Steve Shaw:

Had you not been born, there would be another born with your consciousness so that would still be you.

Got it? :)

That's a delicious thought, and, a bit like when we're contemplating the after-death, we'll simply never know. I like it that there are things I'll never know, mainly because it's probably a good job that I'll never know them. If I die an atheist and there really is no God, if I could know it I'd be chuffed, but I never will know, which could be construed as faintly annoying. If I die a Christian and there's a God, I'm on a winner (as long as I've been good, of course). If I die a Christian and there's no God, well I'm not really a loser because I'm on the same footing as that atheist (though he might have led a more free and easy life, I suppose...), and anyway I won't know much about it. The only loser is the atheist who dies and finds out there really is a God. Bejaysus, he'd be at the mercy of the Almighty then all right! How bloody fair is that lot!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:35 PM

Wow... I go to my shop for a few hours, and lots more to think about!

Thanks for the nice words, Jack... and you're right, it is hard to address a concept that I think is largely linguistic. It is relevant to think it thru though, because it is such a pervasive idea in religious history.
I do feel that your attempt to reconcile my thoughts with gnu's is pretty close. I'm not sure, however, that "forgiving one's self" is entirely a workable notion. One can 'let go' of personal regrets and ... um... 'stop beating yourself up'... but forgiveness of the self would be kinda phenomenologically awkward, rather like monitoring one's own motives to see if they are honest. There are just some things that are something between circular and tautological.
This does no invalidate what gnu is trying to get at... I just prefer different terms.

As to "mundane" ideas as expressed in poetry by Blake or Golden Rules or other well-worn imagery: one of my favorite quotes about Philosophy is: (paraphrased, as I have lost the exact original).."One of the important values of Philosophy is rescuing admitted truths from the neglect caused by their universal acceptance."

Is it appropriate to investigate our attitudes about Heaven & Hell?

Well, it became a relevant thing for me when I was in 6th-7th grade.

I was member, for 2 years or so, of Boy Scout Troop 448 in Wichita, Kans.."Bill Coulson's Eagle Mill"...if you weren't seriously heading for Eagle, Mr. Coulson kinda looked down on you. And the religious bit soon became obvious...we were singing one night before the full meeting started..."I Ain't Gonna Grieve My Lord No More" (Oh, you can't get to Heaven in...etc.) and someone did the verse, "If I get to Heaven before you do, I'll plug that hole, and to hell with you"...and Coulson came storming out of his office telling us that verse was NOT appropriate, "I don't want boys in MY troop sitting around singing about Hell!"

It was fine to sing about how to get to Heaven...but..
That was one of my first times to wonder just what words were really about.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:45 PM

Oh.. and Steve's musing about winners & losers is really the crux of the argument in Pascal's Wager, where he decides that believing is really a pragmatic bet... can't hurt to go along- it all 'might' be true. Of course, there are far more logical possibilities than ol' Pascal let on. (As Walter Kaufmann put it, "God might save a special place in Hell for those who go to Mass.")

Anyway, many times in these threads I have complained that it ain't fair.... if I am right about no afterlife, I don't even get to say
"I told you so!"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM

I suppose my idea of heaven, is more-or-less akin to the Wikipedia definition of Nirvana. And I do think we can at least occasionally touch heaven during our lifetimes.
I'll bet most of us "of an age" have been affected by the popularity of eastern religions during our formative years - and I think that's a good thing.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:13 PM

I think that a poet, or anyone else, who cajoles you into contemplating your innermost self by considering a wild flower, or a grain of sand, is warning you (whilst cuddling you) that the world of creation has no room for the mundane. We are not here to condemn "ordinary" things as mundane things. To me, "ordinary" is a beautiful word. Pick up a grey stone and feel its weight, its warmth on your skin, its silky hardness; stroke it with your thumb to feel its texture; turn it over to see how its colour responds to the glinting sunlight and contemplate its millions of years gone. All the better if it isn't a spectacular, glittering diamond. In the words of Bob Dylan (or was it Carly Simon), you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. Or 'til you've gone. Which makes stuff urgent.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:23 PM

Oh.. and Steve's musing about winners & losers is really the crux of the argument in Pascal's Wager, where he decides that believing is really a pragmatic bet... can't hurt to go along- it all 'might' be true.

Well not really. In my context, pragmatic is a bit of a dirty word. I don't do insurance. What I've come up with for the way I live my life, inside and outside my head, is my best shot. End of. No gnawing away, worried in case I should do a back-up 'cause, well, let's face it, it can't hurt... Paradoxically, or maybe not (you tell me), I think we atheists trust in God more than any believer does. As long as I'm a good bloke (which will never be defined by any religious notions of morality), God will ultimately look after me, I reckon. Cor, that might annoy a good few believers as we queue up at the pearly gates...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:52 PM

"(27 more paragraphs redacted, thus reducing the total blather I could inflict on everyone here. I feel better already.)" Hahahaa!

LH aand others... great insight and comments. This is the discussion I had SOOOO hoped for. It's reasonable and not a... you know.

I am still upset that Don fucked off in a huff but, after the third time my last two threads were screwed over, I just lost it and went Wildebeeste. Anyone that is truly surprised at my reaction either don't know my 10 year+ history here or (deleted).

LH sent me a PM and, damn if George didn't trump me, yet again! I said ya can't forgive yourself. Ya can, according ta LH and he is right (I wish he would post his PM - it's GOOD) EXCEPT that I still believe ya can't do it on yer death bed NO MATTER how sincere you are about your repenting on accounta it's too late to let those you have trespassed against know that you are truly sorry for screwing them over.

Now... that is a bit technical, but I kinda think we both might have a point worthy of consideration, LH?

AHEM! When I said one can get absolution as a Cat'lic... true absolution done near death with a priest in the Cat'lic religion... I am not qualified to explain TRUE absolution at death but it was explained to me by my grandfather... it is VERY involved. Short story... one confesses to the Father and he takes it where it needs to go. In other words, you cannot forgive yourself if those you have trespassed against are not informed that you are truly repentant for those trespasses. Father is the intermediary. You must confess to him so that he can seek forgiveness from those you have trespassed against on your behalf on accounta yer gonna croak.

All the more reason to not swear at your frinds when they treat you like shit and fuck up yer threads after you asked the specifically not to fuckin do that for the third god damned time in just two threads.

I forgive youse. >;- Do you forgive me for going Wildebeeste? If not, go to hell.

>;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 08:55 PM

I'm not saying that you and Pascal viewed it all in the same way... just that Pascal made the idea of variable options famous. Pascal thought thought it was all a very important point and was one justification for being a 'good believer'. I have no doubt you'd never go that way.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 09:40 PM

LOL! Funny last line there, gnu. I might post that PM. I'll think about it.

Steve - one thing it is definitely NOT about is winning or losing. That's immaterial. If there is life after death, we'll find out when we die. If there isn't, we won't. If there is, I don't think God will punish you for being an atheist, because I wouldn't...and I am a bit less merciful than God! I don't love you as much as God does. ;-D He/She loves you regardless of your beliefs, in my opinion, and can easily forgive someone for not knowing or believing something.

Punishment is something humans do a great deal to each other, they're vengeful creatures, but I don't think God does.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 09:50 PM

Oh, interesting distinction about the deathbed forgiveness thing, gnu. It does sound a bit impractical to wait till the last minute t try and deal with everything. I think the time to start working on forgiveness is now, not at the last minute....so you've got a good point there.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 10:15 PM

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

IMHO as a Christian, if you want to be forgiven, all you have to do is forgive.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 10:22 PM

Steve - one thing it is definitely NOT about is winning or losing. That's immaterial. If there is life after death, we'll find out when we die. If there isn't, we won't. If there is, I don't think God will punish you for being an atheist, because I wouldn't...and I am a bit less merciful than God! I don't love you as much as God does. ;-D He/She loves you regardless of your beliefs, in my opinion, and can easily forgive someone for not knowing or believing something.

Well that's very nice (in a buttock-clenching way, seen from a certain angle...), but the thing is, I wasn't trying to be that serious. More stupidly whimsical, really. As I'm at point 6.9 on Dawkins's scale of non-belief (same as him: his scale goes from 0 to 7), I'll just plough me furrow and not worry too much about God's love/mercy/vengeance. If I get to the pearly gates as an atheist who's led a reasonably decent life, and God decides to go all shitty on me, I shall regard that as fully his problem.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 10:56 PM

If you, Steve, get to the pearly gates, and you will (conceptually speaking) as an atheist who's led a reasonably decent life, yer in like Flynn.

Screw the religion part... it's just about being a good person. That is the whole reason I started this thread... and it's the same reason I started the last thread. TO DISCUSS. That thread went south fast and, when I attempted to focus it it slightly differently in hopes it would provide serious discussion and insight into a reasonable postulate for thought, that lasted about fuck all posts. I think it is still on the board. People emoting and hamming and whatever... sad shit that they get their non/religion in the way of being nice or discussing what's on the table. But, such is the www.

BTW... I wanna thank everyone who posted to this thread and kept within the OP and those that provided meaningful thread drift. Means a lot to me, as I am sure youse can discern from my posts. Read nthing more into that than what I said.

Don... I ain't such a bad guy. I am just a gnu/Wildebeeste.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 11:41 PM

Jack, I think you're right. But you do have to really mean it, IMO, and people don't always really mean it. I don't think just mouthing the words each time one says the Lord's Prayer will necessarily do the trick...providing one doesn't really mean it. It takes quite a bit of focus.

I try to be forgiving, and I keep trying, and mostly I succeed...but I have a little trouble forgiving myself, first of all, both for stuff I did and didn't do, and one or two other people I was very much involved with in this life. Oh...I try. And I keep trying. And I make progress on it a step at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:02 AM

" I don't think just mouthing the words each time one says the Lord's Prayer will necessarily do the trick."

Obviously not. You do have to mean it, every word, and you have to follow the instructions.


I think that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" sums it up. You and make a deal with yourself to do what it takes to get and stay rich and try to repent on your deathbed. You are not likely to succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:36 AM

"If I get to the pearly gates as an atheist who's led a reasonably decent life, and God decides to go all shitty on me, I shall regard that as fully his problem."

Brilliant! Priceless! With you all the way!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 12:45 AM

God doesn't have problems, michael. People have problems. So, if it wasn't a problem for Steve, then it wouldn't be a problem for anyone.

What I mean is...an ant can't cause a problem for whatever brought forth the entire Universe (Big Bang theory?). You follow? An ant can only cause a problem for himself...or a few other ants...or another bug...or maybe for you at a picnic, but certainly not for the source of the Big Bang, nosirree.

***

Yessir, Jack. I think you're right.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:14 AM

Sorry - am I in the wrong thread? I thoughtg I was quoting, and seconding, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 07:22 AM

If you, Steve, get to the pearly gates, and you will (conceptually speaking) as an atheist who's led a reasonably decent life, yer in like Flynn.

Not if I peer inside and see Thatcher and Reagan in there, I'm not.