BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 06:46 PM

i think that geogiansilver pretty much expressed how i would answer.some of the expressions and wording of the texts may be poetic but hell is still a place to be shunned and heaven a placed to be accepted [by repentance and faith] but i wish there were not a hell but i am not going to gainsay the perfect judge.He also takes no delight in it.
"God is not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM

Oh... yeah! A lad I knew said once, "I am a Frisbetyrian... I believe that, when ya die, yer soul lands up on the roof and ya can't get it down." Fat Boy Lee Clark. He was a gem of a man... a true comedian. Broke his back in a rail yard accident workin fer the CNR... used to say he was the only one who ever broke his back workin fer CN. That lad was a joke a minute. RIP, Fat Lee... wherever you ended up ya crazy b

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:22 PM

As far as I can see, all religions are scams. Based on fear, ignorance and ego.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM

"scams. Based on fear, ignorance and ego."

That's how I feel about most government propaganda nowadays, kendall! ;-D And much of what the news media tells me. And religions too when they are mishandled....but not when they are not. And most commercial advertising, for sure.

You see, governments try to sell you a policy that may very well hurt your nation...for the gain of a few rich people at the top.

Businesses try to sell you a product you may very well not need...for the gain of a few rich people at the top.

The news media, owned by a few rich people, tell you the propaganda that their rich owners want you to hear, so as to form public opinion as they would like it to be.

Those are scams too.

If a religion tries to sell you a false or frightening idea in order to control you for the gain of that religious hierarchy...or for the gain of a few leaders...that's a scam.

And I avoided religions for many years simply on that basis. But I knew almost nothing about them at the time. My prejudice (having grown up as an atheist) was based on a mere sliver of knowledge and supposition about religion, not on actual experience around religions.

If, however, a religion offers you a way of getting together with other people you really like and with whom you share common values...if it offers you a way to build a better community and help the poor, for example...if it helps you to look deeper into ideas and philosophical viewpoints that you find inspiring, and finding greater inner peace...if it motivates you to be a better person and to treat other people in a kinder way...that's NOT a scam.

Having discovered a number of religious groups over the years who did all of the above (and they were not all in the same religions, and some were inclusive of all major religions or were non-denominational)...I know that religion is not necessarily a scam.

It's just a scam when it's used in a hypocritical and fraudulent way.

To be cynical about ALL religion on principle is about as perceptive as thinking that "all women are stupid" or "all men are brutes" or "all Irish are drunkards" or "all Americans are fat, racist, fundamentalist slobs". A prejudice like that can't be based on a whole lot of real experience with a variety of different examples or cases of the subject at hand. It's a position of blind prejudice, not actual knowledge.

****

Don - I pretty much agree with everything you said in your last post. As you said, "religion should be a matter of choice, not of coercion. And the carrot and stick is counterproductive in that context"

Absolutely! Dead right. Anything I have ever had to do with religion was definitely a matter of my own free choice as a freethinking adult. I don't go near any outfit that tries to coerce me.

Since my parents made no effort to enroll me in any religion whatsoever, being atheists, I can assure you that I've been under no coercion at any time to join a religion. And if people are so foolish as to threaten me now with "hell" if I don't take up their specific beliefs, I avoid them. I don't judge them. I just avoid them.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:16 PM

""& a coffee bar in Soho ~~ Greek St, I think ~~ I used to meet my girlfriend Jackie there in 1957. Or maybe it was in The Strand. Ah me; my memory is not what it was ~~ how hellish!""

Heaven & Hell, Old COmpton St, Soho, two doors away from the 2 Is, and a short distance from Le Macabre in Wardour St, where you sat on hassacks around coffin shaped tables and stubbed your out Players Navy Cut in ceramic skull ashtrays.

Happy days Mike! Rock & Roll, Jazz, Skiffle and Classical music, all within a five minute walk.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:31 PM

I recall that Al Stewart mentioned Old Compton Street in one of his songs...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:34 PM

""What exactly is wrong with offering a person a carrot and a stick if it is done with a positive intent? We do it all the time with our own children when we're bringing them up.

What Don T. appears to be ojecting to is the very idea OF organized religion per se, rather than the concept of the carrot and the stick. ""

Where exactly did you get that idea from anything I have said LH.

I don't object to religion, organised or chaotic. I simply don't feel the need for it.

Like Kendall, I am a Deist. My communications with God are my own affair, private, and I have no neede of men in black frocks, Turbans, or skull caps to tell me how to reach him.

I have somewhat less than no interest in how other people communicate with him, providing only that they do not try to force their way on me, or teach children their beliefs as science.

I gave my reasons for ditching Catholicism without suggesting or implying that anybody else should follow my example.

I hope that is now abundantly clear!!

As to stick and carrot, there is nothing in the least wrong with a system which offers punishment and reward, and I don't believe that I implied otherwise.

I simply stated what heaven and hell amount to in real and simple terms.

Knowing how you feel about having your words misinterpreted, perhaps you might accord me the right to the same feelings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:37 PM

Strip away all those religious connotations (I would, wouldn't I) and I actually think that heaven and hell are quite useful concepts for helping to define our lives on this planet. Seeing a simple linearity, though, doesn't wash. There's no scale of one to ten with hell=0 and heaven=10. You can have a heavenly orgasm and realise, two seconds later, that you foot is itching like crazy, or that you're on your last clean shirt. You can have a hellish day at the office and savour that sublime first draught of Talisker when you get home (which you had increasingly heavenly expectations of as the afternoon dragged on). You can be standing there freezing nearly to death at the bus stop and when the bus finally arrives the most beautiful woman you've ever seen is on it. You can hurry along worrying about what you'll have for lunch, or you can savour the feel of your feet on the ground, right there at the exact interface between the Earth and space. Stand outside and wish you'd cut that bloody tree back that is now shading your barbecue, or see it for what it really is, a true winner in the billions of years of evolution that produced it. You can indulge yourself with hellish dark thoughts but you can turn it round in a heartbeat and relish your good fortune in just being here. If you can do all that you're more fortunate than many, a heavenly thought in itself. Heavenly things and hellish things are all little vignettes that make up a great big kaleidoscope of life, and the one knocks the sparks off the other.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM

Okay, Don. That's interesting. Can you elaborate a bit on being a Deist?

I don't want intermediaries of any kind between me and God either...I think of everyone as an equal in that respect...but I don't go to a church or a religious setup in order to find those intermediaries or be dependent on them. I go in order to participate and connect with other people in a way that helps brighten up my life and encourages discussion and sharing of ideas.

What I find with spiritual study is this: it doesn't supply a set of pat answers or dogma or a set of rules...rather it encourages asking a lot more questions and considering all kinds of new possibilities.

I have no idea what heaven or hell might be like...assuming they are actually some kind of dimensional existence....or whether they are just symbolic of states of mind. But I do know what is heavenly...and what is hellish. That's pretty clear.

I do think that part of the spiritual journey has to do with relating to other people, so although, like you, I don't need the guy in the robe or skullcap to "get me to heaven", I do find much benefit in just being around people with similar spiritual interests and ideals.

It's more fun than hanging out with people I can't stand or have really little in common with. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 08:58 PM

Good post, Steve. I like the images you came up with.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:02 PM

""If, however, a religion offers you a way of getting together with other people you really like and with whom you share common values...if it offers you a way to build a better community and help the poor, for example...if it helps you to look deeper into ideas and philosophical viewpoints that you find inspiring, and finding greater inner peace...if it motivates you to be a better person and to treat other people in a kinder way...that's NOT a scam.""

I would agree that all of the above activities are very desirable, and in fact I believe that I have managed every single aspect of your outline, including helping others without one ounce of input from any religious organisation.

I even managed to raise about £4000 in one year (jointly with a friend) for the purpose of helping to prevent the collapse of a church spire, simply because the friend in question was a member of that church congregation.

I'm not saying that your comment is untrue, because it isn't!

I am simply pointing out that empathy and human feeling are not the exclusive property of the religious.

After all, in addition to the virtues you describe above, the world's three major religions (I don't count Buddhism in this), have been, are still, and probably always will be busily engaged in trying to slaughter one another by any means possible.

Go figure!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:12 PM

I can never get my head round this "spiritual journey" thang. I'm already here and I'm not going anywhere else. If there's a spiritual journey, then it's going to have me hitting the buffers in a big spluttering mess one day. I'll have spent far too much time plotting my spiritual route and wondering if I'm going in the right direction. I might even start to fret about the meaning of life or whether I'm getting my spiritual fill, heaven forfend. Life is and should be deliciously earthbound, with time for flights of imagination, lots of reverie, serious bouts of reflection and private musings and occasional bouts of transcendent joy, but mostly down 'ere in the rough and tumble. A big patchwork quilt.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:35 PM

""Okay, Don. That's interesting. Can you elaborate a bit on being a Deist?""

Yes LH, I think so.

I look around me at the wonders of what I can see of the Universe, and I find it difficult to believe that it was created purely randomly, or that it was created just for the inhabitants of one speck of matter in the vast spread of stars.

So OK, some entity unknown (call it God, for convenience) designed the whole shebang for a purpose unknown to any but itself.

Thus far I'm sort of tending toward starry Pete's POV!

BUT, nothing that I have seen, heard, or been taught has come close to convincing me that any religious organisation knows more than I do about that unknowable purpose.

Science, on the other hand, has convinced me of certain natural processes and scientific facts which are undeniable within the limits of current knowledge.

My conclusion?

Science has shown that there is no specific need for, or indication of, the entity in which I believe.

Nonetheless, there is no evidence that would suggest that this entity doesn't exist.

Until I see such evidence, I can continue to believe as I choose and if I am deluding mysellf it is by my own choice, not by a system set up to control my beliefs, which is how I see the Catholic Church based, I emphasise, upon physical experience.

What I cannot embrace is the denial of scientific knowledge (Young Earth Creationism), or the concept of the many times translated and re-interpreted bible as the literal and inerrant word of God.

I'm not sure that I have explained my position particularly well, but the bottom line is this.

I can talk to God when and where I choose without the trappings and fripperies, the rites and rituals, or the bias and prejudice of mortal men who know no more about him than I do.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:42 PM

unknowable purpose.

Why does there have to be a purpose, unknowable or not? Shed this incredibly human notion of the universe and you immediately make it far easier to see that the whole shebang does not need a supernatural being. Dammit, if the purpose of the universe is unknowable, the purpose of its alleged creator is infinitely more unknowable. I like to think we try to get nearer to answers, not further away.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Janie
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM

Like Rap, I think it likely that heaven and hell are pretty much whatever one imagines them to be and not destinations.

When my sister died, as I've shared elsewhere on Mudcat, I had the experience of feeling her presence flutter through my mind like the gentle wings of a butterfly accompanied by "thought insertion", i.e. I didn't hear her voice, I heard her thoughts express, "Janie, I don't know why I was so afraid. It's beautiful."

At the time and for some time afterward I contemplated that transcendent experience. Over time I have reached the personal conclusion the most likely explanation for that profound experience was a protective hallucination my unconscious devised to mitigate against the otherwise overwhelming emotional pain and devastating loss, and the intense existential angst when confronted with my powerlessness over her suffering and death - which intimated my powerlessness over my own death.


Was and is a transcendent experience for me. I could be wrong. Kaye, my grandparents, the roach I squooshed on the back porch, the chicken or cow whose body parts I ate earlier this week, or the red snapper, rock lobster, rabbit, deer, kale plant, potato, lettuce head I grew and dug up, or the "weeds", mold, mildew, powder post beetles, etc. I have killed or sanctioned the killing of either for my own sustenance or because I saw them as threats or inconveniences to my comfort and have perhaps done my best to exterminate over the years of my life might all be there to confront or embrace me in a sentient afterlife or reincarnation. I think it unlikely, but whatever....

That which has lived has died for eons, here and elsewhere in the universe. I am merely part and parcel of the universe. I see no evidence to suggest that being human is inherently any more special in the scheme of things than being a dinosaur, ant, lion, possum, bacteria or virus. Somehow, we all have a time to dance in the scheme of things, if there is a scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:56 PM

""What I find with spiritual study is this: it doesn't supply a set of pat answers or dogma or a set of rules...rather it encourages asking a lot more questions and considering all kinds of new possibilities.""

You might have come away with a totally different set of experiences, had you been taught by the Jesuit brothers who ran the Catholic grammar school, where I suffered my secondary education.

Not only did they not encourage asking questions. They actively discouraged them with beatings and banishment from the class.

Why do newborn babes, who die unbaptised go to limbo, when they cannot possibly have sinned? Caned for that one until his arm was too tired to continue.

One example will suffice of what happened virtually every time I dared to open my mouth.

I spent most of the five years outside in the corridor during Religious Instruction (that is what it was called then, not Education) classes.

I'll never forget, the day the GCE "O" Level results came in and I, based on what I had learned in church and at primary school, had passed the exam.

To my dying day I'll never forget the look on that bastard's face. I thought he was going to choke to death before he had finished.

He told the head that I must have cheated, but the invigilator scotched that one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:00 PM

""Why does there have to be a purpose, unknowable or not?""

You have your beliefs. Why not allow me mine?

Does belittling my viewpoint make yours feel more real?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 10:16 PM

Janie... thanks for sharing. Unlike others who have decided this thread should veer off into their own discussion(s).

To wit.... start yer own damn thread and stop fucking with this one. Thread drift is fine but when it just goes back to the same old shit it bugs the crap outta me. I thought that by stating such in the op, this thread would make it further than this without someone hijacking it by addressing a different topic that has already been to hell and back.... MANY times... on other threads.

Heaven and hell? Heaven in this case is having this thread STAY on the discussion! Fer FUCK SAKE! Seriously.... start yer own damn thread! It ain't rocket science. Read the title of the thread... read it again, if required. If you still don't understand what that means, well, how do I put this politely.... ahhh... I can't. So... fuck off with that shit eh!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 01:59 AM

Don ~~ Right, thank u: That's it: Old Compton. The one in the Strand, it comes back, was the Dantesque equivalent, Paradis e Inferno. I think that one is still there!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 02:08 AM

Paradiso

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:27 AM

Don't get all prickly with me, Don. I didn't say for one millisecond that you weren't allowed your beliefs, nor did I do any belittling. I simply proposed an alternative way of viewing the universe as one without a purpose imposed on it. As we have no evidence for a purpose (and a fair bit of evidence that the universe might one day end in a bit of a splutter - what price purpose then?), I'd say that it was a valid view. Just as unknowable as yours. My universe, innocent of purpose, doesn't require a God, that's all. That'll do me. Whatever stirs your loins in these realms of the unknowable, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:47 AM

""To wit.... start yer own damn thread and stop fucking with this one.""

I have a question for you Gnu. Have you ever sat down with a few friends and chewed the fat without the conversation veering off into side alleys and dead ends?

Or do you scream and swear at your friends if they dare not to stick to your chosen subject, as you do here?

If you do that, I don't imagine you have many friends left.

LH asked me a direct question, which led off at a tangent and caused a degree of drift in which others got involved.

I'm not about to apologise for giving a courteous reply to a fellow member, with whom, incidentally, I often disagree.

I had, in any case, said all that I had worth saying in direct response to your OP, so I'll bugger off now and you can continue fulminating to yur heart's content.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:19 AM

Sartre was right.☝

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:30 AM

Ah, but which other people, Bill? That is surely the vital point...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:34 AM

My "Religion" is based on the code of Hammurabi. the golden rule.

I am not a sheep, and I don't need a Shepard.

If YOU do, that's your problem.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM

As in The Wizard Of Id ~

"Remember the Golden Rule."

"What is the Golden Rule?"

"The man who has the Gold makes the Rule."

??

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 10:56 AM

thread creep

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

The "carrot and the stick" is what rules religions. The assumption is made that somehow mankind is bad and must be tamed like a wild beast.

God is an autocratic parent who will spank you if you misbehave. No wonder so much religion is infused with physical violence.

"Heaven and Hell" are folkloric fabrications used to control behavior.

"If you don't behave, the Bogeyman will get you."

Anyone who actually believes there is a Heaven and a Hell is deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 01:58 PM

From: kendall - PM
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 10:56 AM
thread creep
.,,.
Well, dearie-weary me. There's a new one ~~ something never ever ever ever ever been known on Mudcat before. Well well well well we can't have that, can we now!

☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺

Teeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM

I believe there is a fundamental underlying unity to the universe. I also believe that death of the human body does not equal death of consciousness. I believe there is an "afterlife" of some sort. I further believe that our "adjustment" from human consciousness to the universal consciousness which comes after death is colored by the manner in which we have lived our human lives. A human consciousness which is in reasonable accord with universal consciousness will be easily absorbed into the universal. That's Heaven. A human consciousness which is far out of accord with universal consciousness will both reject and be rejected by the universal. That's Hell. It's the difference between diving into a cool lake and driving into a brick wall.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM

Gnu, I'd like to answer your question, but it is a bit too broad for me to answer without writing a tome. I believe that the reality of such things are based on point of view. I don't have the space or the time to answer your question in relation even to the points of view I am familiar with. Certainty a 74 year old Christian on his deathbed might see the concepts differently than a 17 year old entering a bus wearing a ball bearing bomb or a 33 year old Jewish Holy Man hanging from a Roman Cross.

I think everyone on this thread had equally valid things to say about Heaven and Hell, though Steve Shaw seems to have confused the concept of Heaven with that of pleasure and Hell with mild discomfort. But if you wanted his beliefs about those things you got it poetically and in spades. Steve seems to be a person who has intense feelings about mundane things and seems happy with that range of emotional experience. I see nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand I did have a "spiritual journey" that had me choose between religion and suicide. A friend of mine in the UK made the other choice. I do not know if he is in Hell now. But he surely was tormented by demons, so terrible I could barely imagine them, before he was found hanging in that closet in that hotel room in Scotland.

How much is Dante or any of our depictions of Hell metaphor for guilt, loneliness, terror or other mental torment? Maybe "Heaven" is simply relief for that, or simply, love, hope and clear thoughts. Is the real Heaven we are working for just all of us in a room with our brains constantly pumping endorphins? Is Hell a similar room where our brains experience nothing but fear and adrenaline? Certainly when we contemplate Heaven and Hell, thinking of how a society which did not have the psychological vocabulary we have today may have seen mental health is worth considering.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM

For me Joe nailed it ... The oneness with the creator ... Heaven.
Hell is the lack of it .. not fire not brimstone but the loss of that oneness with God

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:16 PM

Yes Joe/Dan... That is the whole basis of the Heaven and hell belief..... We all make choices in life to live one way or another and I personally believe that oneness with God is not ultimately achievable on earth.. but finding out how to get to Heaven to experience it is a goal worth striving for.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:19 PM

Mthe GM, I'll do the jokes. Mine are newer.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:11 PM

Heels together! Up to attention! Salute!

Yes, Mr Kendall, Sir! Of course, Mr Kendall, Sir! Three bags full & a tiger, Mr Kendall ~~~ SIR!!!!

teeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheeheehee

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:21 PM

"Heaven and Hell" are what is known as Manichaean: from dictionary • of or characterized by dualistic contrast or conflict between opposites.

This is endemic of religious discussions that deal with absolutes, and extremes.
It's always "either/or" with no room for degrees. No Christian wants to go to half Heaven or avoid half Hell.

There is no realistic scientific basis to establish these imaginary places.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:29 PM

Have not read this thread again since I last posted because I am trying Charlie Sheen's anger management technique of LEAVING THE THREAD.

I had a PM from a buddy and, paraphrasing my response...

"I disagree. (DELETED). Unfortunately, (DELETED) of whatever the fuck they felt like and that REALLY pissed me off. The thread is about the OP. Thread drift is fine but taking THIS thread totally of the OP and down the road to hell is unacceptable to me. I haven't been even able to bring myself to reopen that thread but I suppose I had better do so and set the record straight."

So I'll just say... Kendall's post was simply a statement... innocuous... an observation. Fine. And, thread drift is WELCOME... it's brainstorming, really, and I LOVE it. But taking over the thread and running it where it never should go when there are MANY other threads on such or =anyone so inclined can OP their own? Fuck off!

I shall now read from where I left off. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:50 PM

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:47 AM

Jump to your own conclusions and ignore mine if you want. What happened is NOT just veering off (thread drift)... it's FAR MORE than that and it is RUDE!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:06 PM

Right... it's time for me to explain my "view". But, I shall first have to write it out. Even tho it's rather simple, I want to get the words down properly to convey the meaning so that NObody decides I am an asshole for expressing it and simply speaks to my concept, pro or con... if THAT is possible.

See yas when I see yas.

Oh... as for swearing at my friends... you bet I do when they fuck up that badly after being asked, politely, NOT TO DO SO in the first place. But, MY friends usually apologize. If they choose not to be my friends in future, their loss. Of course, even if they don't apologize, I still condsider THEM a friend of MINE. I AM a GNU! and ya just can't change a gnu's horns sayeth the leopard.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:43 PM

Very good post there, Jack (the Sailor).

It was back at 19 Mar 13 - 03:06 PM   Anyway, well said.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 06:56 PM

Yes, LH. JtS' posts are consistently consistent in logic, forethought and imsight. Whot else would ye expect from a Newf?

Besides a wink and a nod and a laugh? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

Gnu, I'd like to hear what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 08:37 PM

thanks lh,

Gnu

I am curious to know your thoughts as well.

I would love to know the thought process behind this can of worms. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 08:59 PM

Can of worms will be opened soon as I beat on Micro$oft and get my account to allow me access to MS Office that I paid for and loaded on Sunday! Those bastards will surely burn in Hell!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM

First stab... let me know if it is fleshed out enough to get my basic meaning across. I didn't wanna be too verbose. I excluded a paragraph that I thought was comical about the Cat'lic religion and my take on that because I figured someone would accuse me of more than thread drift for making a simple joke....

I believe in "heaven and hell" as a concept and it need not be associated with religion.

When you die, you don't necessarily "go" to heaven or hell. But, you WILL spend eternity in either, based on the concept of my interpretation of a very simple postulate of mine that may apply to all humans, including even ******** (sorry, couldn't resist that one).

At the very moment of death you have made that choice of heaven or hell… you made it by the way you lived your life and the things you have/have not done… your choices.

As you are dying, you will be judged. You will be judged by you. If you have done "the right things", you will have no regrets. Your conscience will be clear. You be ready to "enter heaven". That is, die with a clear conscience and you will be at peace. If you have done "the wrong things" ("sinned" against "yourself" (God), YOUR God, or others, you will have regrets that CANNOT be undone or atoned for upon your deathbed. That surely must be "hell" and, at that point, you cannot make it right in any way, shape or form. If you are in that "hell" at the moment that you die, that is where you will spend eternity… in hell.

So… that's what I think. It's a quick go at it and it's rough around the edges but I think it's a start to try to explain what I actually feel… think… heaven and hell truly is… regardless of religion. It ain't about religion. It's about "What is Heaven and Hell?"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 10:05 PM

Pretty good, gnu. I think I agree with a lot of that. Yes, I do think we judge ourselves in the end, according to what we did (or didn't do), and we very well may be inclined to punish ourselves accordingly...and also be glad about the good we did. Most of us have to face a mixture of bad and good that we did, after all.

I also think, though, that we are all connected to a source much greater than ourselves, one which loves us beyond measure, no matter what we've done...just as a parent loves a young child.

But when death comes...we can choose to run away from it in fear if we want to...and if so, that's hell.

Or we can choose to forgive ourselves and others, willingly surrender to that great love from which we came...and that's heaven.

And there are probably many different versions of both heaven and hell, depending on how your individual consciousness works.

And I don't think "punishment" is eternal. I think even the most unforgiving and cruel person IS capable of finally waking up at some point, forgiving himself and others, and thereby redeeming himself...just as soon as he gets fed up with the pain of not doing so.

Not saying I know.   I just think it may be kind of like that.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 10:57 PM

LH.... "Or we can choose to forgive ourselves..."

Nope. We cannot. That is truly the hell of which I speak. We cannot forgive ourselves... it is not within our power. THAT is why we have to make changes NOW... to live our lives making the "good choices" because we cannot get an "undo" at the end, Even Bill Gates can't get the "undo" to work at that point. CTRL+Z just don't work!

Okay... against my better judgement, I will add the paragraph I didn't add previously... and I hope nobody takes this as an invitation to start a religion discussion even tho it's kinda... oh, whatever.... PLEASE???? I think my request will come clear after youse read it. I SURE hope so...

Ask for forgiveness at the time of death? Well, yeah, in the Cat'lic religion, you can be granted that absolution by simply crossing yourself and saying the magic words (if you don't know what they are, convert! Hehehehe.) but any good Cat'lic knows that really ain't worth shit on accounta you KNOW the difference and so does HE if you believe in an actual "He". Yes, many good Cat'lics don't believe in "He" but believe in the good that the Cat'lic religion can do and that all religions can do. CAN DO. (BTW... Cat'lics got that there crossing thing, eh? It's like "direct dialing"... straight line thru to the Big Guy - no answering machine, no "How may we dirct your call?", no "Yer call may be recorded for...", no nothin. Not even, "If you are a Protestant, please try your call again later.")

I might go to hell for that, but I will probably absolve myself... I already have... it's a joke and MY God likes levity so I am good to go.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:15 AM

"...you made it by the way you lived your life and the things you have/have not done… your choices."

Well, I don't know about other people but when you postulate having no regrets and that we are judged by the way we have lived our lives and have and have not done- all I can say is that I have MANY regrets- and sometimes in the darkest hour of the night they keep me awake. I have not killed anyone, I have never been arrested- but I HAVE hurt many people intentionally and not. As I said, I have many regrets. If other people have not, well, bully for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM

This is hard for me to get my head around because I don't believe in either.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 06:29 AM

I get the 100.
Heaven!