BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

Surely there is an exception for seeing-eye dogs?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:40 AM

Don, I thank God I did not have your religious upbringing!!! ;-)

So the Catholic Church says animals have no souls, do they? I wonder how they figured that one out? Seems more like wishful thinking to me than any kind of informed opinion.

Anyway, I bet there are some individual Catholics who do believe animals have souls, because there are some pretty independent-minded Catholics around (I've met some of them) and they don't necessarily agree with everything that comes under the authority of the Pope in Rome. In some cases this causes them to leave the church...but in other cases there is enough stuff that they like about the church that they can put up with the stuff they don't agree with.

I'll give an example of how that works: I'm a Canadian. I basically like Canada...for many different reasons. But....there are some things I don't like about Canada. There are things my government does that I totally disagree with! And the winter's too long. Still, I haven't left Canada, have I? That's because there's enough I like about being here that I can put up with the parts I don't like.

The same goes for churches. You don't have to agree with everything in a given church to stay associated with it. You don't have to agree with every point of its dogma.

The same goes for relationships. You don't have to agree with everything about the other person to stay in the relationship.

Everything in life is like that. There is no perfect church, no perfect country, no perfect government, and no perfect relationship...they all involve compromise. And that's why a person can disagree with the Pope about quite a few specific things...and still want to remain a Catholic (for various other reasons quite aside from what the Pope thinks).

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:03 PM

"Hell. That's the place to be. Low energy costs, entertainment, all my mates."

Sorry, Musket. If Hell is the absence of God and God is Love and Friendship derives from Love then there are no Friends in Hell. :)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM

LH... "You don't have to agree with everything in a given church to stay associated with it."

You never met a Hard Shell Baptist, eh? >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:30 PM

"It is Satan's job to be cruel, if the religious fairy stories are anything to go by. "

Yes genius, that it why it is funny to say that even Satan would not be sp cruel as to make me suffer you "humour" or in this case your lack of it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 02:45 PM

>>>>""Seriously, I would imagine that any animals in Heaven would be there for the benefit of the people.""

The Catholic Church states unequivocally that animals, possessing no soul, will not be admitted to heaven. This was one of the points which got me thrown out of the RI class.

I asked what would be the replacement in heaven, given the pleasure derived by humans from animals in general, and pets in particular. I said that it seemed weird that in a place which was to be the reward for goodness, we should have less pleasure than we had in life, and commented that, if I couldn't take my dog, I wasn't sure I wanted to go.

45 minutes outside the door, and a visit to the head for caning, and all these years later there is still no answer, and if it should turn out real, I don't think I've been rotten enough to be excluded, but if that dog isn't waiting I'll have to think carefully whether it's the place I want to be.
"<<<

Thanks Don, you illustrated my point with a clear personal example.
If Heaven is paradise for you, then your dog is there. But dogs don't need salvation and can't go to Hell for their sins. So your dog would be there for you. One thing I might point out is that my dog had very long fur that tended to clump and mat. In his version of heaven there would be piles of dung and stinky, boggy water and bushes with burrs for him to roll in and explore. But then if it is my version of heaven then someone else would bathe him and comb that crap from his fur.

I sometimes think that Heaven, to be the physical paradise it is sometimes made out to be, would have to be customized to the needs of each individual, with many subservient beings to tend to us. I wonder if that is the thinking behind the Mormon idea of each man ruling his own planet.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

"The Catholic Church states unequivocally that animals, possessing no soul, will not be admitted to heaven."

Is that why Western civilisation thinks it's OK to trash the world - because only human's possess souls and therefore all other living things are of no account and can be carelessly destroyed?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:12 PM

"humans" not "human's" - what is the matter with me!?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM

Western "civilization" does that because we are greedy, lazy bastards. Religion is used as an excuse, after the fact.

The Bible talks about "dominion" over creation but also a responsibility to preserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 04:08 PM

Religion is a moral crutch, for the socially inadequate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:16 PM

our internet has been down awhile so this is a very brief response to past criticisms.despite my being "incomprehensible" ,ebbie and bill [and i suspect most others] knew what i was saying.
yes ebbie - that was what i was saying.
bill- every scientist is influenced by presuppositions,and i have previously cited admissions of such.
don t - i see you went straight to the primary source to dis sarfati - not!.that link to " debate" does you no credit at all.
jack - did i spot incorrect grammer in your reply [smile]

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 05:30 PM

I'm curious, pete, is your refusal to use capitals when appropriate a case of passive-aggression? Do you capitalize GOD?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:15 PM

"every scientist is influenced by presuppositions ..."

And your point is, pete? How do you define "presupposition"?

There are theories, models and laws out there - but you probably couldn't do science without them. But all science is, in a sense, provisional and subject to constant review. On the other hand, religion is dogmatic, fixed and unchallengeable. But you'll go on and on and on with your idiot project of trying to force God into the 'gaps' whatever I say, won't you, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 06:55 PM

pete, u r inconsiderate.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 07:11 PM

bill- every scientist is influenced by presuppositions

Don't worry, Shimrod. Pete has copied and pasted this piece of meaningless drivel from somewhere or other. If you ask him to explain it he won't have a bloody clue what to say.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 08:42 PM

"What is 'Heaven and Hell'?"

Concepts with which we offer rewards or not to our sense of what we consider moral. Most of us die believing that we have succeeded in discerning both, with our enemies consigned to the latter and our humble selves to the former. With just modesty, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:01 PM

Intolerance and blind prejudice is a mental crutch for the emotionally inadequate, John.

gnu - No, man! ;-D I don't think I have met one of those Hard Shell Baptist guys...but I've seen them in the movies.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:42 PM

"emotionally inadequate"

Would you be kind enough to explain what that means?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Mar 13 - 09:44 PM

Pete... and *I* have posted explanations of very different types of presuppositions.
Assuming that strict rules of scientific investigation are required is very different from assuming that there is one 'book' which owes its existence to a supernatural being.... and that is the basic difference going on.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:00 AM

pete, it's a serious question: Do YOU capitalize the name of God?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:50 AM

Ebbie... YOU are GOD? Heheheheee... >;-)

Oh man... I DO SO NEED another cuppa tea!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Claire M
Date: 29 Mar 13 - 03:34 PM

Hiya,

Heaven is anything that takes me out of myself – a great concert, book, etc., a good chat with someone else who shares my interests.

Hell is a group of nursing homes I ended up staying in. They should be evacuated, shut down & bombed so they can never re-open again.

I'd love to read the Bible – all that burning fire & blood really appeals to me. It just sounds like a very long folk song. Anyone got any recommendations for a kids' version?? My eyes can't cope with the small font. When I was younger my parents took me to this shrine – I was blessed by a nun who gave me a St. Rita, (she's the patron saint of sick/disabled people) which I wished had been a St. Theresa because of the song.

There were candles in red & blue glass things, statues of nasty things happening & a tape of chanting, a bit like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDc2FD-vy8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_jKsQjuCfE

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 03:25 PM

Well, I have my answer- in checking some threads I see that pete does capitalize the name of God. It is evident, since he doesn't use capitalization here, that he is displaying his lack of respect for us. And for himself.

Come on, pete.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:39 PM

Ebbie.. if you have listened to certain evangelist preachers, you may have noted that is is common to pronounce 'God' as if it were the most ostentatious word in the universe...(I suppose it is to them).

It is impossible to do it justice in print, but it is sort of like..
"Goowwadd", done with throat tightened and mouth opened roundly, and the sound held for an extra second. I assume that capitalization is an exercise in 'respect' done out of deference to the idea.

It rather bothers me too, even though I see the intent.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:46 PM

I'll swear I heard John Wayne saying, at the foot of the cross, "Truly this man was the son of Gawd..."

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:38 AM

According to a survey carried out in Ireland, published in the Irish Sunday Times, the majority of Catholics here no longer believe in Hell - they couldn't have visited Birmingham!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

How & when literal belief in Hell disappeared from Catholicism is one of the main themes of David Lodge's clever novel about a group of Catholics from 1950s-80s & the doctrinal changes they lived thru in those years, 'How Far Can You Go?', pub 1980. (US title - 'Souls & Bodies', I think). I have recently reread it, and it stands up pretty well.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:37 PM

I prefer the other religious threads on the go at the moment. Especially the one where Sailor Jack puts me in the same boat as Dawkins. Hope I can live up to it.

Just out of interest, does anyone know if other religions have an equivalent of heaven and hell, or is it just the christian cult? (And then only certain sects, as I am aware Jehova's Witnesses don't subscribe to the hell bit.)

Heaven by the way was being at Hillsborough yesterday, thrashing the tykes.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:30 PM

Bollocks! Heaven (had I been able to go) would be to have been at Villa Park this afternoon to see Stevieboy picking holes in Lambert's benighted boys...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:55 PM

"Just out of interest, does anyone know if other religions have an equivalent of heaven and hell, or is it just the christian cult?"

If you'd bothered to read this thread....

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:41 AM

I have read the threads. My question was rhetorical you prat, to draw out the debate as it was getting very defensive by those with a superstitious claim on heaven and hell.

Steve, you poor deluded chap. Gerrard impressed me last Tuesday to be fair so it was to be expected he was going to be on form. However, for a truly holy experience you need a local derby and a bit of tyke bashing. The atmosphere in the cathedral, the cradle of worship since 1867 was superior to anything experienced in the false prophet church of Anfield. Mind you, you were playing away. And on that subject I'm off to pick up my lads and head down to Bristol. Heady stuff this heaven lark..

Up the Owls!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:13 AM

Why has this thread petered out into a tedious load of drivel about f***ing football? I can get that anywhere - newspapers, the radio, TV, the Internet, toilet walls and probably, very soon, beamed directly into my f***ing brain, whether I want it or not! Now there's a vision of Hell!!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 04:31 AM

The thread petered out ages ago. Im just pointing it out.

Anyway, to normal well adjusted people football is heaven hence appropriate for this thread. At least it exists...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:19 AM

But it's all relative ~~ the weekend was heaven for me coz Arsenal won, but hell for Emma coz Chelsea didn't.

Shimrod ~~ don't forget the famous graffito: "Jesus saves ~~ but Gervinho scores on the rebound".

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:25 AM

"Don't just say God - say Shankly"

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Musket
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:40 AM

Has to said I suppose.. 89 mins in a cup final, 1.0 to your team... There aren't many atheists in the stadium.....

SWFC v MUFC 1991. Wembley place of Worship.   I was that pilgrim....

Whenever I read "latterday saints," I still think of John Sheridan.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:50 AM

When I were nobbut a lad oop north I were a Burnley supporter (it was where me grandad, me dad and me uncles came from), and I will never forget the early 60s FA quarter-final replay in which we knocked out Sheffield Wednesday 2-0, the goals being scored by Jimmy McIlroy (the greatest footballer who ever lived) and Jimmy Robson. You had to be there - and I was!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:56 AM

Aye and come 1966 we got to the final. I was too young to go but recall it well listening on the radio. Pity Everton beat us... My confirmation was the1969 - 70 season when I got my own pew. (Stood on the cop behind the goal.)

Of course I remain bemused how you can say you support a team and then you say you support another? You don't choose your team. Your team chooses you.

That's real religion. ...

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:49 AM

Groan!!

Why do some 'groan' men like watching other 'groan' men kicking a ball about?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:09 AM

Yeah. Fully agree Shimrod.

However, we are discussing football now. Kicking a ball about helps the odd idle moment but what the hell (or heaven) has it to do with this thread?

Up the Owls!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:16 AM

Not when you live in the depths of Cornwall it doesn't. Unless you really expect me to support Argyle? Jaysus...

And shirley I was permitted to go right off Burnley when I discovered that Alastair Campbell supported 'em? Have you no pity?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:31 AM

Why do some 'groan' men like watching other 'groan' men kicking a ball about?

Well at least it's a damn sight better than that game played by men with oval balls.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 11:16 AM

"Stood on the cop behind the goal.)..."
.,,.

Hope he didn't complain about your weight, Musket. Or did he nick you?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:39 PM

"
I have read the threads. My question was rhetorical you prat, to draw out the debate as it was getting very defensive by those with a superstitious claim on heaven and hell. "

No you haven't read that thread. there was a detailed discussion of the origins of the concept of heaven and Hell being from other religions in the first part of the thread when the adults were having their say.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:47 PM

Not when you live in the depths of Cornwall it doesn't
Bude?
Only just in Cornwall!

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM

Well we children want our say now.

Sailor Jack's a Christian. Ha ha ! We'll beat him up at playtime ha ha!

Christianity is just about all from other religions, not just the threat and promise bits of controlling people. Although on balance, the bastards seem far more efficient at it than the other religions... I love the quote from Archbishop Desmond Tutu when he said that "when the white men came, they had the Bible and we had the land. They invited us to close our eyes and pray. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land."

I had read it 'you prat'. My question still stands. The other examples indicate places other than this world but do they all use them as carrot and stick? Are they all of the threat and promise variety?

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:12 PM

You read it but you asked the question as if you hadn't?

Carry on schoolboy.

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:24 PM

Ya know, apparently, there does come a time when all actually is said and done.

Amen.

For those who don't know, look it up. For those that do know...

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:01 PM

I'm told by someone with a doctorate (not in religious studies) that Heaven and Hell are exactly what the bible says they are: opposite destinations in the afterlife.

However, they exist in a "different dimension," so to speak, so you can't fly or dig to them.

When you're in one, after death, you'll know instantly which.

Since God is loving and all-forgiving, it may be possible for certain non-Christians to go to Heaven, but my friend does not recommend testing the theory.

When I asked him how sure he was of these things, he replied, "Close to 100%. I can't say absolutely 100% only because this life is the only one I've actually experienced."

Subject: RE: BS: What is 'Heaven and Hell'?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:29 PM

Not when you live in the depths of Cornwall it doesn't
"Bude?
Only just in Cornwall!"

What a prick. I live four miles outside Bude and almost a half hour's drive from the Devon border. The nearest village (no pub, no shop) is two miles away, the nearest small town is four miles away, the nearest large town (if you call Barnstaple a large town) is an hour's drive, and similar for the nearest emergency hospital. Keith, piss off back to your hate-Palestine threads, please.