BS: Vegan mudcatters

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 04:00 PM

Veganism = nutty as a fruitcake!!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:51 PM

Bring beans to the boil. Fast boil, for ten minutes. Turn off the heat and put on the lid. Sit for two hours. Cook. (as said, cant' vouch for the effectiveness, but that's what I remember.)

I think that is too long, they'll stay hard. I do this all of the time, and my technique is to bring to the boil for TWO minutes then take off the heat and let sit for ONE hour. They are ready to cook and are the right consistency.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 08:55 AM

"I guess can you buy proper packets of 'realistic' gravy substitute these days ?"

Yes, easy as pie. Bisto gravy powder, the old gravy browning stuff, has always been veg/meat free. You can use veg stock cubes or marmite or vegemite for the stock.

Or you can buy lazy gravy granules, many of the ones purporting to be 'for meat' are actually veg stock based = check the labels. But if in doubt go for onion gravy granules for brown 'beefy' gravy and vegetable gravy granules for a lighter 'chickeny' gravy.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:20 PM

"Mrs punkfolkrocker seems fairly positive about having a go at rekindling our student days veggie diet regime.
But it'll probably require monthly trips to Bristol to stock up on dried pulses etc.."

Grand! I tend to shop online once every three months for wholefoods, which I buy in 1kg or 3kg sizes (depending on what it is). You can usually get free delivery if you spend X amount (eg: £40). This works well for me because I've established a routine that suits me and I have a bunch of staple recipes (which I continue to switch up and add to) that I cook in bulk once a month and portion up and freeze for meals later. If I'm going to cook beans, I may as well do the bag. Once the bag is cooked, I may as well use the whole lot. I find a 500g bag of beans, tends to make eight portions of whatever it might happen to be (curry, stew, chilli etc.). AS there's two of us, that makes four meals (or one months worth). The batch gets portioned up into four 1kg tubs and frozen. I take it out the night before to defrost and then cook side dishes on the night.*

Ocado online is also surprisingly good for some things (good variety of pulses and grains, as well as dairy and meat subs), though I've found highstreet or edge of town Waitrose's to be rather rubbish by comparison.

Our friday night thing is curry and wine or lager. As Musket notes below, there are lots of veg options, add pickles and naan, and you're away. Even veggie it still feel like it's 'fun' or 'treat' food. Veg curries are always an option at takeaways too, the sides are fab: onion bajis, saag aloo, stuffed paratha.. Hmmm... hungry.





*that posh pressure cooker I linked to before was way too small. I thikn I'd probably need 8 litres not 4

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 10:18 AM

"Trying to remember if I used to do a 'quick soak' accelerated last minute before a meal method;
though right now I'm not sure if It's something I've completely forgotten,
or something imagined ???"

Nope, it's not a phantasm of your poor doner addled brain, the fast soak is indeed 'a thing' - bizarrely I'm so organised these days that I can't remember needing to do it!

Bring beans to the boil. Fast boil, for ten minutes. Turn off the heat and put on the lid. Sit for two hours. Cook. (as said, cant' vouch for the effectiveness, but that's what I remember.)

My mum cooked beans in the pressure cooker, it takes considerably less time. ONe of these days I'll invest in a posh stainless steel one: vegan kitchen porn

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 10:14 AM

Aduki beans - I used to love them with mashed spuds..
I guess can you buy proper packets of 'realistic' gravy substitute these days ?

Mrs punkfolkrocker seems fairly positive about having a go at rekindling our student days veggie diet regime.
But it'll probably require monthly trips to Bristol to stock up on dried pulses etc..

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Musket
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 09:48 AM

One or two good ideas there. Thanks. I do put mushrooms in, they go spanking with the aduki beans. If I did aubergine, I'd probably slice it lengthwise (as I do to grill it in olive oil) and make it a layer in its own right.

Good stuff.

(By the way PFR, the reason they resort to cannibalism the other side of the Severn Bridge is because you can only eat so many pot noodles....

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 09:33 AM

yeah.. I'm perfectly aware how rubbish kebabs are...

Which is like a smoker saying "Yeah fags are bad for me and everyone else in the room, but eff it, I don't care.."

.. but, I don't smoke, I've packed in drinking, I'm faithful to the mrs..
gotta have one occasional vice I enjoy...

At least I've not resorted to cannibalism, like they are just over the Severn Bridge...

You've reminded me of the palaver of soaking buckets of beans over night..

Trying to remember if I used to do a 'quick soak' accelerated last minute before a meal method;
though right now I'm not sure if It's something I've completely forgotten,
or something imagined ???

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:51 AM

"I have yet to make a vegan white sauce I am happy with, mainly because I adulterate it with parmesan and its replacing that taste / texture that I find difficult."

My vegan lasagne is a work in progress. So far the best dairy-free 'milk' I've tried for a bechamel is Almond Breeze Unsweetened by Blue Diamond. They sell it in Ocado/Waitrose and ASDA probably other places too. It is quite thin, more like skimmed milk in texture, but it has a neutral slightly nutty flavour. A lot of other dairy-free milks are simply too sweet for me.

To make up for lack of richness, next time I make a bechamel for lasagne, I'm adding some Nutritional Yeast powder. It's not parmesan of course, but it is very savoury and again has that satisfying umami depth that can be lacking in vegan food. If curious you can get it here at Ocado Nutritional Yeast Flakes It's uses are quite varied, sprinkle it over stews as a regular seasoning at the table.

The best 'meat' & tomato ragu layer I've had so far, is aubergine and mushroom with black olives - all the meaty texture and umami richness, with none of the cholesterol or sat fat.

Topping I use pangrittata / crispy garlic breadcrumbs - again, not rich like cheese, but good in it's own right.

As for homemade egg-free pasta? It's been a while since I made homemade stuff, but I used to find that pasta verdi was my favourite, it worked really nicely all smooth and soft, I don't know if the extra mucilage from the spinach puree added something, but I think I may give it a go vegan style now..

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Musket
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 05:43 AM

Aye. Cannellini is about the most used bean in my cupboard. Well, that and borlotti.

Aduki beans I find to be a good substitute for minced beef, although they do that best in lasange and I have yet to make a vegan white sauce I am happy with, mainly because I adulterate it with parmesan and its replacing that taste / texture that I find difficult. Egg free pasta? Well yes, but it doesnt roll as well, despite the gluten still being there.

I tend to go for curries a lot of the time. Chick pea, Chana Dahl and puy lentils bulk out a dish wonderfully, and curries are a natural home for cabbage and cauliflower. In fact, I like making a veg curry anyway, even when its just us two, and a lot of the time it is vegan I suppose. (I do like serving with a side dish of yoghurt with spring onion finely chopped in it though.)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 03:51 AM

Further to cannellini beans, the 1lb batch is now cooked. I will allow it to cool, then divide it into two portions, one to freeze for when I want to do some Tuscan style beans with sage, garlic and white wine Tuscan Beans with Sage (take your pick) and the other to make up into my lunches for next week.

Another bean based dip (I find them all pretty useful) to serve with bread and crudites, this time flavoured with rosemary, lemon and garlic. It's not "devine" but it is really quite good - one your vegan and non-vegan guests would probably enjoy Musket: Cannellini and Rosemary Dip For my own use, I tend to reduce the volume of oil. I'd also suggest bruschetta or grissini to serve rather than pitta chips, just because.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 02:30 AM

I hope you enjoyed your doner yesterday Punkfolkrocker. So far as your cholesterol levels and blood pressure issues are concerned however, a King Size Doner with Chips is probably the worst thing on the menu, you should go for the flame grilled chicken instead :)

"Food standards officers who analysed nearly 500 kebabs to check meat content, labelling and nutritional value found "shocking" levels of fat and salt, inaccurate labelling of meat and, on average, enough calories to provide half a woman's recommended daily intake. ...
The results of the checks on 494 kebabs in pitta bread, collected for 76 local authorities, were revealed by Lacors, their national regulatory body. The average kebab contained almost 6g of salt – the recommended daily limit set by the Food Standards Agency – as well as huge amounts of saturated fat and nearly 1,000 calories.
   Some examples contained 1,990 calories, nearly a woman's recommended daily intake, 70g of saturated fat, which is three and half times the women's daily guideline amount, and 16.5g of salt. Five of the 10 most unhealthy kebabs in the study came from south-west England."

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/27/doner-kebabs-fat-salt-pork

This morning (yes, 7 am on a Sunday morning - I'm also boiling up a batch of cannellini beans for next week) I'm watching this: The Starch Solution - John McDougall MD

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Musket
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 01:36 PM

Aye, keep eating it and you too can become a doner before your time.

To be fair, I can cook for most diets, having celiac disease friends and in laws, Muslim and various India sub continent friends, lots of vegetarian friends and family..

It is vegan where my imagination falls down. Vegan in spirit is one thing but thinking of things for 100% vegans can be hard on the host... This thread however is giving more food for thought than some of the recipe books I plough through.

Still, some days I reckon it would be easier to upset vegans so they don't turn up to your parties. A wife of a friend of that ilk was cheeky enough to ask to see the packets once. I thought he had married beneath him as it is, but it would seem she makes him eat packaged food too. Everything I cook for people is from scratch.





Except custard..

If anybody can make custard that is as good as Ambrosia, they should be presenting TV programmes on how to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:49 PM

yes.. I know.. doner kebab...

To think, I used to regularly get 99% in primary school spelling tests...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

Bonz - tonight I'm looking forward to treating myself to a king size donna kebab and chips..

Sod it, why not, it's the weekend...

Plus the best local donna take away is so good you can enjoy it
without needing 10 pints of lager or cider to first anesthetize yer taste buds..


Omnivores - surprisingly enough, on a TV report investigation of a few years ago,
donna meat tested as healthier than most other fast food 'meats';
and you get a relatively healthy salad !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:19 AM

Had a wonderful mixed grill for lunch of steak, pork, gammon and sausages, absolutely wonderful!!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 11:19 AM

It's quite easy to get put off tofu. The uncooked wet white oblong straight out of the pack, isn't appetising in it's unprepped state. And it's very, very bland indeed.

I frequently use curry powder to season tofu with. Dry bouillon powder also works really well if scrambling in the pan. And garlic, lots of garlic!

If scrambling you don't need to press and marinate first, but for everything else, I'd consider those two steps pretty much essential. Get the prepping right before you cook it, and you'll have a different experience with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 10:35 AM

I first tried cooking tofu from a wholefood co-op around 1983ish
but gave up because however I prepared it, it tasted like clay.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Nov 14 - 07:17 AM

Vegan 'fry up' for Saturday brunch of scrambled tofu, baked beans, plum tomatoes and fried mushrooms. Scrambled tofu makes a good alternative to scrambled egg, though it's not creamy or rich like egg it can be tasty and of course protein rich. Quote a good example of how to make it here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mRfPkJC2fJ4

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Rumncoke
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 06:37 PM

Well - if you eat complex carbs, don't chew - the amylase in saliva breaks down the starch to sugar in your mouth if you do.

The delay in the availability of sugar is due to the stomach not digesting the carbs, it passes into the small intestine, the pH becomes more alkaline and THEN it is digested - so there is more of a delay.

The results are the same, though. For diabetics the glycaemic index is important - the different values are quite interesting reading.

Being in the UK where the fibre is not counted as carbohydrate - it is listed separately on the ingredients panel, we might think of carbs slightly differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:31 PM

I have a lot of combinations in my diet because of my interest in the Mediterranean diet. It wasn't called that when I started eating it - I lived in New York City for a few years and simply fell in love with Greek and Middle Eastern foods. Babaghanouj and pita, hummus and pita, lentil or split pea soup with other nuts and grains, beans and rice (a staple I learned to eat from a Puerto Rican spouse), etc.

I've been using healthier grains - spelt flour, unbleached white or whole wheat from organic wheat, etc. It costs a lot more so I don't use as much, and when I bake it's more of a treat.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 02:00 PM

maybe this site will help a bit.

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/carbs/simple-vs-complex-carbohydrates.html

it's somewhat about how quickly the simple sugars hit the blood stream which affects diabetics drastically. the calories from complex sugars like starch- some will be used in digestion and the rest are in the simple sugars that are more slowly released into the blood stream.

either way, the body is getting an influx of simple sugars that it has to metabolize in some fashion.

the other complex sugar compounds are fiber - very hard to digest - in fact, we use microorganisms to digest them for us... and much just passes through the GI tract.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 01:35 PM

Thanks for your input RUMNCOKE. I can't disagree with what you say, as I'm not well read on contemporary thinking about carbs - I learned what little I know about nutrition, maybe twenty years ago. However I'm surprised that more recent thinking concerning complex carbohydrates, tends to consider them to be exactly the same metabolically for the body, as simple sugars.

When I was younger, I had what I'd consider to be a sugar addiction; with all the intense cravings, sugar binging, sugar high related nervous energy excesses, and sugar crash energy lows often associated to the frequent ingestion of intensely sugary foods. Since cutting drastically back on simple sugars, all that's gone now, and I can't say I've ever - subjectively -experienced either a 'sugar high' or a 'sugar crash' from eating a sandwich, a bowl of risotto, or a baked potato. Nothing like.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Rumncoke
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 10:52 AM

I'm afraid that more recent thinking had decided that simple carbs are easily broken down and are stored by the body as fat and more complex carbs are also easily broken down and are also stored by the body as fat.

Carbs are digested and moved into the bloodstream as sugars, where they can damage the retina and blood vessels, kidneys, etc., so there is an immediate release of insulin which removes the sugar and stores it as fat. Usually the rapid drop in bloodsugar results in a sensation of hunger and so you eat a sandwich or sugary item or have a sugary drink and the same sequence is repeated.

Fats, on the other hand, first of all are not all absorbed, and secondly, when they are they are left in the bloodstream so as to be available to provide energy. There is no insulin spike blood sugar crash sequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 07 Nov 14 - 09:34 AM

"just remembered the home made contraptions I used to sprout my own alfalfa and bean shoots in,"

Punkfolkrocker: that reminds me, I have a sprouter somewehre. And I have lots of mung beans and lentils both of which make OK sprouts - ideal for wraps, salads and for stir fries.

I do tend to find though that they are a tad on the stringy seeming side compared to bought sprouts, or maybe I didn't keep them damp enough when I've tried growing them before?

...

Not so vegan yesterday; oven baked salmon fillet for dinner served on a bed of mixed green salad, with a more substantial rice salad on the side. No other animal foods during the day though, fruit for breakfast and lunch was the last of my butterbean and horseradish dip with crudites and pittas. Bread and jam for supper :)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:46 AM

Dani: "Scott Jurek is another athlete who seems to do quite well without meat. As an endurance runner he definitely finds ways to get in the needed calories and essential nutrients.
His burger recipe is amazingly delicious"

I will try that burger! It looks like a 'real' one :D

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:24 AM

Nostalgia... back in my early to mid 20s..

just remembered the home made contraptions I used to sprout my own alfalfa and bean shoots in,
back when by necessity I lived frugally on about 20 pence per meal..

that left more supplementary benefit money for beer and guitar gear....

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:15 AM

Yeah - those backstreet hippy veggie co-ops and cafes...

Back in the late 70s / 80s / 90s I lived in big cities
- the cheap veg pasties and samosas were a right good treat after a few hours hiking or cycling..

..despite the odd small stones and health 'n' safety / food hygene defying
strange particles of woody debris..

all good roughage...

sadly long gone here where I now live ...

Just one small crap holland & barrets.
No rice, last time I looked in and asked...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:59 AM

Scott Jurek is another athlete who seems to do quite well without meat. As an endurance runner he definitely finds ways to get in the needed calories and essential nutrients.

His burger recipe is amazingly delicious. We've tweaked it a bit to serve our needs, and it's well-loved: http://scottjurek.com/eatandrun/recipes/

Not advocating either way, except for health! Thanks for all the great info and insights!

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:36 AM

Punkfolkrocker: "I'm lucky so far I havn't succumbed to diabetes,
so I know I gotta do something positive again about diet & exercise soon, before it's too late..."

It sounds like you already know what you need to do, but motivation can help. I'd recommend watching 'Vedgucated' and 'Forks over Knives' - you may be able to find them online free somewhere if you search about a bit.

This Oprah episode is fairly interesting: https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIi3P1tUnDwAxl52BQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZ2N0cmxpBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdw

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:03 AM

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about 'complex carbohydrates' they are something different to the amino acids from which protein is composed, though they coexist (along with small amounts of fat, and other nutrients) in carb dense / starchy foods such as grains and beans.

Carbs come in both 'simple' and 'complex' forms, 'simple' carbs (or sugars such as sugar/sucrose, honey, high fructose corn syrup, maple syrup etc.) are comprised of only one or two molecules and are swiftly broken down by the body to create energy.

Complex carbohydrates (or starches such as bread, potatoes, rice etc.), are comprised of strings of many molecules, it takes the body longer to break these down into energy (a good thing) than it does simple carbs / sugars.

Typically, especially if you're hoping to avoid diabetes for example, you should try to minimise or exclude 'simple carbs' where you do eat 'complex carbs' consume them in their unrefined (or less refined) state. The fibre in wholefoods slows the breaking down of complex carbs into simple carbs even further (again, a good thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:32 AM

Stilly, yes not all plant foods have all the right amino acids in the right proportions for the body to synthesise protein from. Grains have more of some than others, while the balance will be different in seeds & nuts, and pulses (lentils & beans).

The traditional thinking was that you needed to 'combine' two of three of these different food groups (nuts with grains / nuts with beans / beans with grains / grains with nuts) at any one meal to be sure of getting the full complement of amino acids needed.

However modern nutrition science thinking is a lot more relaxed about specifically combining these three food groups in meals, as the body stores amino acids for later synthesis of protein - they don't get flushed away like water soluble vitamins for example. So long as your diet is balanced and varied, and mostly based on 'natural' foods or wholefoods, you should be OK.

I don't personally tend to think about combining these food groups, on a whole-food based diet it tends to happen for me anyway - as a byproduct of just eating certain foods I like. That may be because - by either happy coincidence or experience based pragmatism - a lot of traditional peasant foods tend to combine those foods anyway.

The staple foods of the rural poor in any culture tends (or has tended - this changes significantly with increased economic prosperity) to be predominantly plant based, so you will find a lot of suitable traditional recipes from around the world that fit into a veg diet very well. I make use of them myself.

Here's an example of how the kinds of foods I regularly eat which accidentally combine the above food groups: Hummus and pita breads (grain and bean), hopping john (grain and bean), nut roast (nuts with grain) bean burgers (beans with grain), minestrone soup (grain and bean), lentil soup with bread (bean and grain), etc.

So it's pretty easy to do. Though it's worth keeping a note of what your food habits are so that you know where you may be lacking, or where you're going wrong. As said below, a food tracker is a useful tool, at least initially until you know where you are with a new dietary routine.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:03 AM

Punkfolkrocker, I remember those wholefood co-ops that used to live down the dingy back allys of town. Usually run by a bearded bloke, the dried goods would be stored in big plastic tubs, weighed out onto traditional grocers scales with tin mugs and then packed into paper bags.

Sadly most of them seem to have been replaced by 'Health Food Shops' packed full of rather expensive and mostly unnecessary supplements for anxious and affluent women (at least the one nearest me certainly is) rather than affordable foods for err ordinary people, however you might be able to find a wholefoods co-op near you if you live in or near a city. Some do still exist so ask around. And some also now have online shops which deliver all over the country. That might be your best option.

Try these:

http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-local/frameset/sect/FRGCS-Catering_Sizes.html
http://www.ecogreenstore.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=191&zenid=4f7377289779427fa73a0400dfd88c1c
http://www.buywholefoodsonline.co.uk/rices


CS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 10:36 PM

In my 20s I was pretty well informed about combining pulses and grains for amino acids..
I was also a fast reckless city cyclist.. my weight was 10 1/2 -> 11 stone. [I'm 5'10"]

In my 30s and 40s I trained seriously in the gym, eat a sensible balanced diet,
and drank heavily on weekends..
my weight was a lean muscular 13 -> 15 stone [seasonal fluctuations]

Now, after 6 or 7 years of close family illnesses & bereavements, and my own niggly health problems,
I'm a lazily omnivorous burnt out couch potato on blood presure & cholestrol tablets
weighing nearer 17 stone...
oh well.... at least I don't drink anymore..

One annoying thing I've noticed in the last couple of years,
it's now impossible to buy large economy bags of wholegrain rice
in any local shops and supermartkets.
Only extortionately priced small boxes of Uncle Ben's
[the racketeering bastards]

I'm lucky so far I havn't succumbed to diabetes,
so I know I gotta do something positive again about diet & exercise soon, before it's too late...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:25 PM

Corn and beans were mentioned as creating complete amino acids. Is this a reference to complex carbohydrates in general? Beans and rice, nuts and grains, there are lots of combinations that add up to complex carbohydrates. I used to have a list.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 11:30 AM

Ed, you're absolutely right in terms of flavour - butter and cheese are delicious, there's no two ways about it.

I adore cheese in all forms - in fact I'd far rather have a cheeseboard than pudding and will do so if eating out and it's an option. My avoidance of them isn't because I don't like them, or indeed for any ideological beliefs about animal husbandry, it's predominantly enlightened self-interest.

I have asthma that I've found is provoked by dairy. Also very high cholesterol - when last tested - that I've been told by my Doctor that I need to bring down. Plus I'm trying to keep my proportion of calories from fat under control while I lose weight (quite a lot of it). Otherwise both my soup and potato, might well be as you described.. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 11:15 AM

CS,

Your meals sound really nice, and I have great respect the path that you're going down.

Sadly, I can't help thinking that your 'cabbage, potato and caraway soup' would be considerably improved by a grating of mature cheddar, and your 'baked potato, topped with mixed bean and sweetcorn chilli' much enhanced by a big knob of butter...

Maybe I just wasn't supposed to be a Vegan...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 11:03 AM

Quite a few high profile vegan athletes including bodybuilders out there now punkfolkrocker, notably Carl Lewis of course, who went vegan way back in 1990: "Carl Lewis: Olympic Medals through the Vegan Diet" "My best performances were when I was thirty years old and when I was vegan."

Another vegan day yesterday for me:
Butterbean, horseradish and parsley dip with toasted wholemeal pita breads for breakfast. Big bowl of cabbage, potato and caraway soup for lunch.
Huge baked potato, topped with mixed bean and sweetcorn chili, and a pile of red cabbage and onion slaw on the side for dinner.
Kcals: 1448, Protein: 48g, Fibre 44g, Fat 25g

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 11:33 AM

From late teens to early 30s I went through phases of near to total vegetarian;
for mixed reasons of ideological influences and lack of £££$$$...

But never vegan - the vegan I flatshared with was extreme to the extent of walking city streets
bare foot in all weather for most of the year

My worse period of malnourishment was when I lived off a diet of tomato soup and dried peas for a few months
whilst saving up for music equipment.. that was stupid.

Anyway, in my late 30s when I'd taken to regular gym workouts,
I got in a debate with the gym owner,
who declared I would never find a succesdful vegetarian, let alone vegan, bodybuilder.

We didn't have internet then, so no way could I dispute that...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 11:28 AM

processing... what a delightful word... and so hard to pin down

mechanical processing can mean cutting, drying or grinding... the food is still chemically unaltered.

chemical processing... it used to be adding salt or sugar to retard bacterail growth... but it can also be the start of the fermentation process. yum

or adding lye to corn to end up with hominey or boiling vegetables to remove things like oxalic acid.

heat can also change the chemistry... or using acid like vinegar or citrus.

Or you can process flour until it's little more than pure starch and then make a big deal out of adding back the missing vitamins.

Or substitute artificial flavors to a concoction of fats, carbohydrates and salt and get the ultimate junk food of your choice.

it ends up that you really need to understand what it is you are consuming and what steps are needed to ensure you are getting adequate nutrition. this was hard earned knowledge gained by our ancestors and passed on through the generations.. It is today in our modern world that we have become disconnected from our environment and that information.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 11:04 AM

Regards "processing" plant materials, you do mean basic kitchen processes like grinding and cooking right? I wouldn't fancy going 'raw' anyway, thirty bananas a day? Ugh, I'd be living on the toilet! :-/

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 10:21 AM

agreed... but we seem to live in a world that is obsessed with food fads and eating disorders abound. Balance and moderation is not eating a supersized meal and drinking a super size diet soft drink... yet I see it all the time.

All my training as a biologist, ecologist and cultural anthropologist... hence the "sciencegeek"... tells me that "vegan" is not "the answer" to anything other than a personal choice that needs to be carefully thought out.

There has been a small bandwagon claiming that everyone going vegan will save the planet... speaking as a professional in the environmental field, I find that simplist attitude alarming. Hence my posts. Don't worry, I even speak out when folks try to turn "organic" into more than it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 09:47 AM

Sure, my point isn't to convince anyone to quit meat. I eat fish anyway. But as this is a thread about veganism and there have been questions about non-animal 'protein sources' I'm just showing that it's a lot easier to get protein on a vegan diet, than most people believe.

I don't meet my calorie requirements by consuming 'Oreos', 'potato chips' and fizzy drinks though, which are every bit as 'vegan' as kale and lentils but very high in calories from fat and sugar and low in other essential nutrients. Junk food vegans do exist - folk who really do live on top ramen noodles, oreos and chips - and they don't tend to do that well.

If I was eating sweets and snacks all day instead of a diet comprised of predominantly of vegetables, wholegrains and pulses (legumes) in a variety of combinations, I'd be much less likely to get all the nutrients - including amino acids - that I need without supplementation.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 09:12 AM

well, aside from the fact that I enjoy the taste of meat, the fact remains that small amount of meat provides a complete package of essential amino acids... and the reason why protein is needed in the diet... we can not synthesize them but have to ingest them. The nine amino acids humans cannot synthesize are phenylalanine, valine, threonine, tryptophan, methionine, leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and histidine.

This is why corn is usually eaten in conjunction with beans... neither has all nine, eat both together and you do get the complete package.

As for protein... hair & fingernails are almost 100% protein... but not very digestable. And many plant sources of protein are equally indigestable without some kind of processing... if not actually toxic.

Please don't take this to mean I see any value to gorging on meat... far from it. What I support is balance... take advantage of the full range of options that your metabolism can handle and try to chose options that are least detrimental to our common environment. We own 70 acres that are farmable... but not really suited to tillage. Some is woodlot, the rest is pasture that is restoring the tilth to the land and our critters provide nurishment to both us and the land. And there is still room for birds and wildlife to live and flourish. There'd be fish too, but the stream is too close to the headwaters and dries out some years.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 08:37 AM

Sciencegeek, I think rice and beans are always great idea, they make a good hearty meal for those not eating meat, and meat eaters can tuck in too. I had Cajun style blackeye beans yesterday, which I love - along with steamed rice. It's really moreish stuff though, quite easy to load the plate up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 08:32 AM

Yesterday vegan all day, and logged on food and nutrition tracker:

Breakfast: Wholemeal toast and marmite, Miso soup in a cup
Lunch: Cabbage, potato and caraway soup, with brown bread
Dinner: Cajun brown rice and blackeye-beans, Steamed spring greens, Pumpkin and split pea patty

Calories: 1364 - intentionally less than I need due to portion control for weight loss
Protein: 54g - about 8g more than I need (46g)

In case there is still any doubt concerning protein sources on a plant-based diet, I'm just illustrating how easy it is to get protein. Looking at the breakdown, two slices of wholemeal bread gave me 10g, the blackeye beans another 10g, and the split pea and pumpkin patty 13g, the rice 5g, the soup 12g and miscellaneous extras from other odds and sods like the miso and yeast extract.

If my intentionally reduced portion sizes had been large enough to bump me up to 2000kcal, which is the amount generally advised for adult women, then my protein intake would reflect that and be more like 77g which is considerably more than I actually need.

I hope that all makes sense!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:35 PM

one nice thing about their buffet was the number of choices...

steamed vegetables, a starch like rice, potato or pasta, and several meat/fish options.

Fresh green salad but not a wide selection of dressings, but at least oil & vinegar option, and only a single soup selection per day.

nicely balanced for us omnivours, but lacking in substance for vegans... to my way of thinking. The eggplant rollatini was delightful, but the ricotta filling put it off limits. At least the pasta was presented plain and a marinara sauce was an option.

maybe a hearty mushroom & bean/vegetable ragut served with a nice pilaf would have done the trick.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:30 PM

Pangritata is something I've been using quite a bit recently. I'd say it's a very useful staple in the kitchen of anyone aiming to reduce their hard cheese consumption, for whatever reason. A great sub for vegans. Use it liberally on pasta dishes.

Roughly blitz 200g / 7oz of fresh bread, into breadcrumbs.
Gently heat about 4 - 6 tablespoons of olive oil, in a heavy based pan.
Add as much finely chopped garlic as you can handle; I use six cloves, others may prefer two!
Saute until softened and beginning to colour.
Add breadcrumbs and then keep stirring over a low to medium heat until crispy - this may take a while, but don't cook too hot or the garlic will burn, which is nasty.
Once crispy, take off the heat and cool. Season well with salt and pepper. Store in an airtight jar.

You can include fresh herbs in this mix, while crisping the breadcrumbs, but so far I've just added dried as my garden herbs have been too rain sodden to bother those times I've done this.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:10 PM

Me below.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegan mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:10 PM

All those sound good to me Sciencegeek. I suspect the key to effectively serving a smattering of vegans in amongst a predominantly carnist crowd, is to serve dishes that the carni's would still want to tuck into as side dishes alongside the meaty dishes. Or in other words, not 'veggie' versions of meat dishes but tasty dishes that are veg in their own right. Also anything served to a crowd, needs to be easy to prep in bulk - saucy dishes that can be served straight from a large volume stew pot are ideal (curry, stew, soup) as are dishes that can be portioned up and served straight from a gastronom (lasagne, cobbler, pie)

Sunday was an all vegan day for us: fruit for breakfast, then we had a brunch of home made herby potato wedges, tinned baked beans, curry spiced scrambled tofu, tinned plum tomatoes, and brown bread and soya marge. Later for dinner we had lasagne made with a tomato, mushroom and olive ragu sauce, wholemeal lasagne sheets, soya milk bechamel (no almond milk in), topped with pangritata (garlic breadcrumbs).

We also watched 'Cowspiracy' which himself found to be quite an eye-opener.