No man's land protest

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:13 AM

John, I disagree, especially for that war.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 09:01 AM

..and not that anyone cares.. but "Streets of Laredo" is one of my favourite songs...

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:55 AM

Joss Stone & Jeff Beck cover - dreary and overlong MOR pop gospel.... nothing special...

But let's be realistic, the original Eric Bogle version
is not a particularly interesting or engaging musical experience either...
and it's even longer and drearier...

Perhaps consider how much Bogle's intended "powerful anti-war message" is neutralized and undermined
by the uninspired boring performance & arrangement.

Personal tastes of course - neither are the kind of music I like to listen to..


...odd the things folks contrive to get their knickers in a twist about.....

..and before anyone gets up on their high horse,
I've been a lifelong pacifist and anti jingoistic-warmongers since very early childhood...

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: thetwangman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:29 AM

JHW, the Furey's 'revised' version probably appears in lots of those type of book by virtue of the fact that it was a big hit in Ireland. Still, it's a bit of a stretch to consider it the Irish version.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:02 AM

Thanks BH. That is awful. Worse even than I could have envisaged. I can only respond with something Wilfred Owen wrote about war.

DULCE ET DECORUM EST(1)

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas!Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 08:00 AM

My father always said that he didn't enlist in the New Zealand army in WW I for any great patriotic motives but just went along with everyone else. He got discharged before going overseas because of a pre-existing medical problem but having been given such a flag-waving send-off he couldn't go back to the town where he had enlisted, so he came to Australia instead. He always kept his discharge papers in his wallet to show those people who, while mostly being outside the draft themselves, liked to go around giving out white feathers.
   Whatever the young men thought they were signing-up for, it's certainly a fact that nobody on either side had the least conception of what a horrifying experience trench warfare would turn out to be.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:42 AM

Here on the artists website: http://www.jossstone.com/news?n_id=7231

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:33 AM

Martin. Can you or anyone provide me with a link to a site where I can actually hear this alleged mess of pottage?

I know that someone has already posted what is supposed to be such a link, but all that comes up is the Daily Telegraph news report.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:19 AM

We all wondered what Eric Bogle felt about this version of his great song - well now we know:

Here's songwriter Eric Bogle's response:
"Was my permission sought when they decided to record this song? - No! !!
Did I know what they proposed to do with the song when they decided to record it? - No! !!
Do I approve of what they have done to the song ? (missing verses, rock'n'roll arrangement, etc) !
No, believe it or not I wrote the song intending for the four verses of the original song to gradually build up to what I hoped would be a climactic and strong anti-war statement. Missing out two and a half verses from the original four verses very much negates that intention."

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

'I object to the suggestion in the song that Willy and his friends were so stupid as to fight without knowing why.

Keith, I suspect that in the majority of wars the average 'foot soldier' probably does not fully understand the politics behind the war, so it is a fair enough question to ask what they believed to be the cause, and I suspect that's what Eric Bogle is getting at in the song

John

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 07:05 AM

Whilst I think this is an awful version of a really moving song, I hope it sells well and makes a lot of money for the Legion's work.

I sung it a few years back at a Remembrance Day service, and by the time I'd finished there was not a dry eye in the congregation, which I hope was a refelection of the song itself and not my performance ;)

John

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: JHW
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:50 AM

I'd wondered time and again where the 'revised' version came from and asked someone who sang it one night. He produced his book of 101 Irish songs.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: thetwangman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:30 AM

The text on the stopwar site appears to be the Furey's version. I wouldn't consider it 'the Irish version'. Many Irish singers sing Bogle's original lyrics. Having said that, I have no objection to the Furey's version. They had a big hit with it and fair play to them.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:21 AM

The countless white crosses must indeed "in mute witness stand" because revisionist so called historians are busy sanitising the carnage, callousness and poor leadership.

There is a huge difference between knowing why you fought and thinking you know why you fought.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: JHW
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 06:04 AM

The text on the stopwar site is the Irish version. ie 'countless white crosses in mute witness stand' dumbed down to 'countless white crosses stand mute in the sand' etc.
I'd vote for that version only to be sung with all the verses omitted, and the chorus.
stopwar site

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:57 AM

Fred

DO have a listen! It's the most wonderful example of appalling musical taste that I've heard for a long time - and I've heard lots!

Regards

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:49 AM

I haven't listened to the British Legion's version of Bogle's song, and I don't intend to, so please excuse me if I don't know what I'm talking about.

However, the issue here seems to me to be less to do with the bowdlerisation of a fine anti-war song than it is to do with the glorification of war. To use of any piece of music, including Elgar's Enigma Variations, and turn it into an emblem of war and a justification of the millions of lives lost is something which I find stomach churning.

You can find a link to the petition here . Please sign.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 05:39 AM

The arrangement and the performance does leave a lot to be desired as can be heard HERE

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:45 AM

I object to the suggestion in the song that Willy and his friends were so stupid as to fight without knowing why.
The song should not have been used at all,.
It is a great song, but not accurate.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:10 AM

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot...

Regards

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 04:00 AM

a great way of drawing publicity to a folk song, and to eric bogle, and could lead to an interesting discussion on whether words should be changed without the authors permission, who knows we may have a visit from some people who will claim it is not a folk song because it does not fit into the 1954 definition.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:35 AM

Notwithstanding anybody can sing any song, subject to observing copyright terms and conditions, and reserving a type of song for a type of singer isn't the best comment I have ever heard on here, I do support the principle of not losing the whole ethos of the song.

Not sure starting a petition against BL does anybody any favours all the same. Nobody would have bothered buying Rolf Harris's "Stairway to Heaven" if a petition hadn't started...

I doubt many in the Albert Hall see glory in war when singing along to Elgar's "Glory, pomp and circumstance of glorious war."

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 03:02 AM

A big petition has been started ~ a folk song should be sung by a folk singer and not made into Pop in my view and sung as written ~ hope Eric Bogle's permission was sought and given however!

British Legion should be seen to be beyond reproach

Ray

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 02:48 AM

Interesting that this protester believes the song to be miscalled 'No Man's Land' (Bogle himself doesn't) and appears to promote the version perpetrated by the Fureys.

While agreeing that verse 4 is vital to the song, I find the alternative offered is also flawed, particularly in v.3

No Man's Land on EB's own site, a couple of minor errors, but at least they are the author's.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:52 AM

I dont think E Bogle is a mudcat member.

Subject: No man's land protest
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Nov 14 - 01:43 AM

The British Legion is causing controversy by releasing a version of Eric Bogles song "No man's land", also known as "Green fields of France" and "Wilie McBride" without the all important last verse condeming war.
The stopwar.org.uk site (can't do blue clicky on my phone) has a petition to sign if you agree that this is unethical.
I would be interested to know Eric Bogle's own view on.this.