No man's land protest

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:57 PM

I rarely remember this, but for the year of my degree dissertation I lived and breathed H. Rider Haggard.
I still have boxes of books going mouldy somewhere in the house.
Amongst them is the published diaries.
Wherein he wrote about death of the son of his good friend Kipling.

[Of course, I can't remember the details or be arsed digging around in the damp downstairs back room].

Haggard may have used the word 'atomized' to describe the young man's death ?

I've just googled to see if I can find the diary entry.
No luck, but I did find this account if anyone is interested...

Kipling's son


BTW.. LATEST UPDATE..

I asked the wife if she had bothered listening to the youtube link
to Bogle's original full length version ?

She said "Yes, I liked it... you said he was Australian, he sounds Irish !!!"

"He was born in Scotland"

" errrrmm.. yes, he sounds Scottish"

"So which version of the song do you like most ?"

"Hers.. his is too long. I like both, but hers is best."

Subject: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST,AC
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:30 PM

Jesus wept...! Who would've thought so many half wits were into folk music? There's a guy earlier today talking about the "Bogle version", which he apparently dislikes. There isn't a "Bogle version" sunshine: it's his song and that's how it goes. In the folk tradition (which I believe Eric Bogle subscribes to) minor edits and alterations to suit the tempo or style of a particular singer are acceptable, but to delete half the song to deliberately remove its core meaning and message is grossly insulting and offensive in the extreme.

When Joss Stone was tackled about her "butchery" of the song at the Albert Hall during rehearsals for the British Legion concert last Saturday (by another artist - a veteran who had been at the Normandy beaches on 6 June 1944 and knew what it was to be bombed and shot at and who was appalled by what he heard) she admitted that she had been responsible for rewriting the lyrics but claimed she had to shorten it to fit the time slot. This was a mealy-mouthed and pathetic excuse as she cannot be so dense as to have missed the significance of her re-write (can she...?). The RBL must also have been fully aware of (and must have endorsed) this censoring of the message in the song's lyrics. The guy who tackled Stone at the Albert Hall told her that if he was Eric Bogle then he would probably sue her. Bogle himself has taken a more emollient line but we should not. It's a bloody outrage and those responsible should be told so in no uncertain terms.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:17 PM

Kipling wrote a number of epitaphs, including the following;

Epitaphs of the War 1914-1918

A SON

My son was killed while laughing at some jest. I would I knew
What it was, and it might serve me in a time when jests are few.

AN ONLY SON

I have slain none except my Mother.
She (Blessing her slayer) died of grief for me.

COMMON FORM

If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 04:06 PM

May a raving leftie pop his unhelmeted head above the fire step?

I heard "No Man's Land" first sung live by Eric Bogle, and shortly afterwards on vinyl by June Tabor. Both of course excellent. This was nearly forty years ago. Unfortunately the song was then misheard, renamed and recorded by various performers, SOME of whom had previously made loads of money by bellowing rebel songs while wearing Aran sweaters. I don't have a problem with this but it does seem somewhat ironic.

I think now that the song is marginally overwritten, but that's just an opinion. Visiting a small war cemetery in northern France does tend to make one veer between anger and sorrow. I've managed to avoid the current Joss Stone/Jeff Beck/et al version so won't express an opinion, although the ravings about it in certain "newspapers" are beneath contempt.

I do protest about certain people on this thread implying that my wife and I are deluded militarists because we have bought poppies, including a couple of ceramic ones, in memory of the members of our families who didn't come back, or who came back damaged.

We spent the two minute silence yesterday in a hotel in Hartlepool with the TV on, looking out at the West Quay. At 11:02 someone fired a cannon from the "Trincomalee" and at the same time a dinghy race started. I thought "Good, I bet all the lads from Teeside who didn't come back would have approved of this".

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:46 PM

From wiki (with citation)
After his son's death, Kipling wrote, "If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied." It is speculated that these words may reveal his feelings of guilt at his role in getting John a commission in the Irish Guards.[67] Others such as the English professor Tracey Bilsing contend that the line is referring to Kipling's disgust that British leaders failed to learn the lessons of the Boer War, and were not prepared for the struggle with Germany in 1914 with the "lie" of the "fathers" being that the British Army was prepared for any war before 1914 when it was not.[68]

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:33 PM

The whole flippin' lot of you miss the point, though, albeit PFR only just.
What happened then happened then. This is about what's happening now. The rights and wrongs of the time are the mores of the time. we should have moved on and learned the lessons of that, but what in fact is happening is that a bunch of fogeys have been unable to get past it and are stuck in a mentally twisted time loop. Worse, they've dug in and won't recognise that in defending that Great Lie, they are perpetrtating a bigger one. When Kipling regretted his jingoistic imperial stance in Common Form, "If any question why we died, Tell them, because our fathers lied." he could be exused the benefit of ignorance. Not so now. Let us at least be honest with our children.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:13 PM

Jim, I have been avidly interested in WWI since I was a boy and have read the History extensively.
My views are learned from historians.
I quoted many to make my case on the earlier threads.
You still have not found a single one who supports your version of History.
That is because there is not a single one.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

Bonz - quite often the problem with being an anti war loony lefty* [*ah..quaint old dismissive insult - almost Trad]
is the even loonier lefties on your own side...

Unfortunately, I missed out on being a raving lefty because I wasn't into the acid house clubbing scene..

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:43 PM

The raving lefties are all on hyperdrive today!!

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:37 PM

"Those "historians" that you haven't read again
If you haven't read up the subject how the **** can you claim they are not typical?
And the atrocities committed by Belgium were equally as real and many millions time worse, and still not worth a comment - probably because the victims were the wrong colour - Gallant Little Belgium my arse.
The real atrocity is that a century later there are still Empire Loyalists lkje yourself who will still excuse rthe annihilation of a generation and would still do it again "For King and Country" - given half the chance
Rule Britannia - as ever eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:35 PM

I know - let's invent a time machine and go back and stop the war ever happening.

Oh hold on.. wait a sec.. not such a bright idea...

All those millions would never have died and Europe would be even more overcrowded than it already is...

.. and all them scrounging buggers would be wanting to come and flood over here to England..

Sod that, now we'll all have to vote UKIP for even daring to imagine the war never happened...


There you go - Proof - being daft is very easy... requires no hard effort at all.....

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:18 PM

Morris-ey. You've lost me. Are you saying that every individual's existence is posited on all the events in world history which directly preceded it?

You may be right. However, the logic of this argument supposes that, if world war 1 had never happened, I would not now be sitting here keying this in. That's probably correct, because my mother would presumably have been born pre-1914 instead of post-1918. Ditto for my father, which means they might never have met and I would have been a completely different person.

But in what way would this justify world war one?

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 12:04 PM

Maybe this should be the B-side? From digitrad.

WILLIE MCBRIDE'S REPLY
(Lyrics: Stephen L. Suffet (Copyright 1997)
Tune: "No Man's Land" by Eric Bogle

My dear friend Eric, this is Willie McBride,
Today I speak to you across the divide,
Of years and of distance of life and of death,
Please let me speak freely with my silent breath.

You might think me crazy, you might think me daft,
I could have stayed back in Erin, where there wasn't a draft,
But my parents they raised me to tell right from wrong,
So today I shall answer what you asked in your song.

Yes, they beat the drum slowly, they played the pipes lowly,
And the rifles fired o'er me as they lowered me down,
The band played "The Last Post" in chorus,
And the pipes played "The Flowers of the Forest."

Ask the people of Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine,
If my life was wasted, if I died in vain.
I think they will tell you when all's said and done,
They welcomed this boy with his tin hat and gun.

And call it ironic that I was cut down,
While in Dublin my kinfolk were fighting the Crown.
But in Dublin or Flanders the cause was the same:
To resist the oppressor, whatever his name.

Yes, they beat the drum slowly... etc.

It wasn't for King or for England I died,
It wasn't for glory or the Empire's pride.
The reason I went was both simple and clear:
To stand up for freedom did I volunteer.

It's easy for you to look back and sigh,
And pity the youth of those days long gone by,
For us who were there, we knew why we died,
And I'd do it again, says Willie McBride.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:50 AM

Britain's involvement in The Great War was, at the time entirely justified, even inevitable.

It all too easy to sit in the comfort of one's armchair and wring one's hands about of what os right or wrong.

Consider though: if Britain had not gone to war how many here complaining would actually be here at all? Your existence is dependent on all the past that precedes it.

Anyway, the original issue is the changing of "The SONG".

Like it or not makes absolutely no difference.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:42 AM

feel that this resolute cynicism, and doubt as to the sincerity of others' motives, do you little credit, Sean.

Sorry, Michael, just after nigh on 40 years of being bullied by the weep-along-or-else sentiments of this song (and others) it's hard not to be. I got in Folk because I wanted listen to Traditional Songs, not to be preached at by politicos, lefties & peaceniks, or be put in a position of having to quietly retire least I was found wanting by the more vocal members of folk's revisionist ernestocrasy.      

For the record, at heart I am an Anarchist who longs for a world of loving peace in which scientific reality & cultural diversity are the cause of human unity, and all is green, pleasant, a-political, pastoral and secular with the Advancement of the Individual being our primary cause. To that end I address my craft, but not to the extent that I don't recognise such dreams are, alas, some way off yet. God knoweth, they were even further off 100 years ago in that past that was well and truly another country.

I'll go there presently, sit quietly among the gravestones and listen to those songs I mentioned earlier on my Nokia C-3 : Peter Bellamy singing his setting of Kipling's My Boy Jack and Dick Gaughan singing Hamish Henderson's The 51st (Highland) Division's Farewell to Sicily, respectful to be part of that future the likes of Pte. William McBride fought and died for; respectful that his death was not in vain.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

my observation was that most people in the streets and supermarkets were not wearing one.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:38 AM

my observation was that most people in the streets and supermarkets were not wearing one.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:28 AM

There is nevertheless a strong feeling of macho patriotism in this Year's Poppy Campaign. Refrain from buying a poppy if you dare.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:23 AM

Historians have access to the accounts of tens of thousands of soldiers.
Ones like yours were not typical.
The atrocities committed in Belgium and France were real.
The threat to us was real.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:16 AM

"Britain was treaty bound to defend Belgium."
So Britain was treaty bound to defend a murderous imperial power capable of slaughtering 15 million of its subjects - and that why millons of British lads lost their lives - now there's a cause worth dying for - or were all those "gallant little Belgium" posters just a con to persuade them to join up - can't have it both ways - Belgium was either one of the all those lads were sent to die for, or it wasn't - what's it to be?
The "massacres" that took place in Belgium were deliberately exaggerated, and if they hadn't been, they were minuscule compared to what the Belgian regime had done in the Congo, yet the world didn't twitch an eyebrow.
Mark Twain wrote an account of what was happening in the Congo, and was castigated as a leftie crank for doing so.
"They understood the cause quite well."
You have been given counts of soldiers returning from the front disillusioned - you ignore them, describing those making such statements as liars
You have been given account of the cons and "white feather" blackmail that took place - you ignore it.
They understood and supported the war o fervently that the authorities were left with no alternative than to introduce enforced conscription - that's how well they understood the cause and were prepared to die for it.
It was an Imperial war over world domination - nothing more, glorifying it as anything else is flag-wagging jingoism.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:12 AM

There were a trivial number of firing squads compared to the scale of the thing.
White feathers were nothing to do with government but came from ordinary people.
My grandfather was given one on his wedding day although a serving sailor.

What propaganda?
Belgium and France really were invaded, atrocities were committed and Britain was threatened.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Musket
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:05 AM

The by and large bit included firing squads, white feathers and propaganda.

💤.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 11:01 AM

The BBC in conjunction with the History Department of the Open University made a documentary series about the war.
Summing up in the final episode the presenter, Jeremy Paxman, made this statement to camera.

57 minutes in. Paxman to camera, "
Later generations would contend it had been a futile war. The war was terrible certainly, but hardly futile.
It stopped the German conquest of much of Europe, and perhaps even of villages like this.

Never before in the nation's History had a war required the commitment and the sacrifice of the whole population, and by and large, for 4 years, the British people kept faith with it."

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 10:51 AM

Britain was treaty bound to defend Belgium.
Belgium was invades by a ruthless aggressor and suffered atrocities and massacres of its ordinary people and children.
They were headed our way.
We sent the army we had.
Yes it was hopelessly outnumbered and forced to fight a desperate fighting retreat, but the invaders were stopped.
It was after that retreat when all hopes of a short war were dashed and defeat a real possibility that there was the greatest surge of volunteers.

They understood the cause quite well.
It was not in vain.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 08:39 AM

"It was a crime to resist invasion by tyrannical aggressors?"
It was a crime to send millions of young men, little more than children, (some of them legally considered children), ill-trained, ill-armed, ill-led and ill informed, to die in the mud of Europe for a squabble over Empire - little more than a family spat between monarchs.
As for tyrannical aggressors, 'Gallant Little Belgium', one of the major excused for entering the conflict, had, a few years earlier, systematically slaughtered somewhere between 10 to 15 million of its Congolese subjects in pursuit of rubber - that was one of the "noble causes" over which World War One was fought.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:59 AM

It was a crime to resist invasion by tyrannical aggressors?

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Jon Heslop
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 07:55 AM

It's an insult! An insult to the writer, an insult to the listener and most of all, an insult to the millions of war dead of every nation.
We have to ask why the producer, the artists and the whole marketing/publicity machine allowed it to be released in this form?
I suspect the answer lies in making an acceptable "product" that will not upset people or politicians who don't want to be reminded of the fact that since the outbreak of the Crimean War, Britain has been continually involved in bloodshed somewhere in the world.
To quote historian A.J.P. Taylor,
"The purpose of political activity is to provide peace and prosperity; and in this every statesman failed for whatever reason." (The origins of the Second World War)
So to airbrush out the last verse, the whole reason for the song, because it does not align with current political dogma is an insult. Whether poltiticians, the makers of war, like it or not it has happened "again and again and again and again" and still is.
Perhaps any government contemplating war should take time out to visit the huge British and Commonwealth war cemetary at Tyn Cot near Ypres and the nearly as huge German one at Langermark nearby. Then visit the D-Day and Normandy cemetaries, British, Commonwealth US and German, (Most poignant is the Polish one just of the road between Caen and Falaise)and then decide.
Sorry, I've digressed a bit but the whole thing makes me angry.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:41 AM

But without the Bogle version, there wouldn't have been a Beck/Stone version.

Still, it's given most of the song a much wider audience.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:17 AM

I have listened to the Bogle version which I dislike intensly, thank godness for the Joss Stone & Jeff Beck version.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 06:16 AM

According the DM, the BBC is not playing the song, but for precisely what reasons is not said. I'd be happy if the BBC DJs refused to handle it on the grounds of taste or whatever. But somehow I doubt it.

Anyway, now we know. Derek Schofield reads the Guardian, and buys it from his local newsagents.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:53 AM

Whilst collecting my Guardian from the newsagents this morning, I noticed that the full page Mirror headline states that the BBC has refused to add Joss Stone's song to its play list .... perhaps Mirror journalists read Mudcat?
Derek

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 05:11 AM

Mrs PFR carries the day! Now—what else is new?

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:09 PM

I thought so too. The attention is good.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:16 PM

Jeri - afterwards, she insisted I find her the original full length Bogle version on youtube..

Which I suspect may be happening in many many more households throughout the UK...??????????

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:59 PM

Did you die quick [well?] and did you die clean
Or Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene

Oh yeah, I can see how that could be glorifying war...

I didn't like her version, but mainly because I don't like the way she sings...trying too hard. Any attention the song gets has to be good. As Mrs PFR's example shows, tastes vary.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:36 PM

"Whether or not we like this song in its original format (and I do)...

etc.. etc.. etc.. and all the rest of this overstated over-reacting hyperbolic bollox...

Stone, Beck and the RBL should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves."

FACT:

My mrs sat in front of the telly watching the BBC Royal British Legion Festival of Remembrance on catch up this tea time...
[dialogue as best remembered, Mrs punkfolkrocker in italics]

"Oh, what's this song, this is really good, its so sad..
Rewind and play it again."

After 2nd viewing she's in tears.

I'm fully aware of this thread, so I ask her a few brief questions while the TV is on pause.

"Do you really not know this song ?" - "No, what is it ?"

"I'll tell you in a minute. Why are you crying"

"It's such an emotional song, about those poor young soldiers"

"Do you think it's a pro or anti war song ?"

"It's obviously anti war, of course it is.. they died so young in horrible conditions"

"Don't you think she over sang it ?, she's a bit histrionic in places"

" no, shes good, she's emotional, I liked her. Why are you asking all these questions, put the telly back on.."

I quickly explained about the protest petition and general uproar on this thread..

" seriously ?, oh, people can be so ridiculous..."

I fell asleep during the lord's prayer for most of the rest of the TV program...

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 04:54 PM

Whether or not we like this song in its original format (and I do) is not the point. The song was written for a purpose and with an intended meaning - that is the point.

Eric Bogle has been very diplomatic and forgiving in his response to this outrage but the rest of us should react with anger at this bastardisation of a beautiful and emotive song and the trampling underfoot of its message. Leaving aside the wholly inappropriate Rock/Pop arrangement; only an artist who had complete contempt for the meaning of the lyrics, for their intended effect and for the writer of those lyrics would have accepted a commission to perform this disgracefully sentimentalised and censored version of a moving and thought provoking anti-war anthem. Joss Stone and Jeff Beck have exposed their complete lack of integrity in agreeing to produce this travesty and the Royal British Legion have shown their own antipathy towards the sentiments behind the song. If they didn't like an anti-war message then they shouldn't have used an anti war anthem. There are plenty of songs glorifying and/or setimentalising the sacrifice of war dead they could have chosen (the Horst Wessel song has its English language counterparts) but this song was supposed to be about the futility of the First World War and the failure to learn its lessons. Stone, Beck and the RBL should all be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Marje
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 03:59 PM

To return to the topic of the song, I've now had a listen to part of the Joss Stone version. I couldn't stand more than a verse or so of it , so I never got as far as the bowdlerised bit. It's a truly dreadful rendition - over-orchestrated, cheesy, messy - and why did anyone think it was a good idea to choose a singer who favours a fake-American, "soul" style of vocals? Utterly inappropriate, and the result is simply a horrible noise, with neither the tune nor the lyrics easy to discern.

Yesterday's Independent carried a report about this controversy, and quoted Bogle's reservations about this version of his song.

Marje

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 02:32 PM

am i a veteran?a veteran of what?am i a veteran of suffering mudcat posters, yes.

Subject: no man's land (new)
From: GUEST,goatfell
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:55 PM

What A load of rubbish it is. What do you think.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 01:52 PM

GSS
Are you a veteran? I at least got my mush in the Stasi files as someone they'd like to have an accounting with. Yes, according to the Armed Forces Covenant I'm a veteran too, but that doesn't mean I still have to obey orders to toe the line.
I'm actually far more aligned with tonight's celebration in Berlin, as that was a little something I did some pushing on from way before it happened. Ending the Cold War is something I had quite a hand in, not just politically but as a human being, making certain the former Warsaw Pact officers and diplomats turning up like new boys in school discovered we were actually normal.
That, I think, is the difference. Germany has something to celebrate, looking forwards positively. We have something black in this, and it's unhealthy for a nation and it's unhealthy for the individuals. The motive then is not the motive now : it's fallen into the hands of fundraisers, whose motives are more to do with the cut they get than what they are claiming: just look at their logo to see what their approach to business is...and it's not going to improve.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: banjoman
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:16 AM

Although I thinks that this version is awful, I feel that at the end of the day, you have to go along with the views from the writer.
Personally, I prefer me singing it in my living room.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 08:13 AM

"Why then in responding to what I say you attack me with personal invective?"
I respond to your permanent (apparently) dismissive attitude towards other opinions - you do it all the time, as Mike has just pointed out.
Don't be surprised when others take it personally and respond to it appropriately
I'm afraid I find Ron Baxter's piss-take a little less than masterful, to say the least, but I am rather fond of Fintan Vallely's parody, which doesn't set out to denigrate the song, rather, it laments a song sung to death
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:32 AM

I feel that this resolute cynicism, and doubt as to the sincerity of others' motives, do you little credit, Sean.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 07:02 AM

Jim - a word in your shell-like if I may...

In expressing my opinions in this, or any other matter, I so so without recourse to personal insults, or personal comments per se (unless sorry provoked). Why then in responding to what I say you attack me with personal invective?

Please, stick to the discussion, huh? Keep the personal stuff to yourself.

*

Oversung? My God! There's an over statement! I haven't heard the new version (and hope I never do) but... imagine... this day... there are people out there - a lot of people - more people than there ever will be Folkies - who are hearing this thing for the first time. Imagine that....

Naturally feel the same way about The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, but without it we wouldn't have had Ron Baxter's masterful Who'll Go to Morecambe? - which is less a parody than am alchemical transfiguration of something base into pure gold.

The reality is, we live in world where shit happens : one of the civilian horrors of war are the anti-war songs. As good a reason as any to stay out of folk clubs in November I'd say!

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:37 AM

"it's a sucky-blanket dream that belittles the horror of war by denying its terrible reality."
No - it does not - it deals with war in retrospect - nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with sentiment - sentimentality maybe, sentiment is a human reaction.
Bogle treats the subject from another point of view altogether, with his 'Waltzing Matilda' - both have their merits.
The problem with Willie McBride is it is oversung by people who don't give a **** one way or the other.
Your sneery dismissal of 'peacenic folkies who, at least make an effort to make their views known, is an indication that your own activities are (once more) confined to the armchair and your poppies - easier to knock something down somebody else has built than build something yourself (again)

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:33 AM

Just an observation about Eric Bogle's claim that NML would have been too long for a single. He's obviously forgotten the Animals' version of House of The Rising Sun, which went on for around 6 minutes, and proved an enormous hit. Not being a pop fan I couldn't put a name to any other epic blockbusters, but I'd have thought there were plenty 55which broke the three minute sounds barrier by a similar margin.

Also, without listening to it again and suffering another coniption fit, does the JS version not use the chorus after every verse?

Surely, if time were such an important factor, it would have been better to drop a couple of choruses?

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:24 AM

When will we ever learn?

We won't. That's the point. That's why we need to stand ready.

Hell, at least it was new cold war and not nuclear war as I heard it on the Radio 4 news last night over the road noise on the M61!

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:05 AM

This just in: The British Legion admit they insisted on the key change on verse three.

Subject: RE: No man's land protest
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Nov 14 - 06:03 AM

Re., various comments about war happening again and again and again. Did nobody else notice that, on the eve of Rememberance Sunday, Mikhail Gorbachev, the ex-premier of the USSR, made a speech claiming that we are on the brink of a new cold war?

When will we ever learn?