BS: Cultural genocide

Subject: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:30 AM

Sorry about the cut and paste, this newspaper does not link. How many countries attempted cultural genocide? This is a stain, in this case originating in early colonial days, and persists, (whike to a lesser degree), in Canada. I suspect it also exists in many world nations and also towards the original residents.


Chief Justice says Canada attempted 'cultural genocide' on aboriginals

SEAN FINE - JUSTICE WRITER

The Globe and Mail
May. 28 2015

Supreme Court Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin says Canada attempted to commit "cultural genocide" against aboriginal peoples, in what she calls the worst stain on Canada's human-rights record.

Genocide – an attempt to destroy a people, in whole or part – is a crime under international law. The United Nations' Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, adopted in 1948, does not use the phrase "cultural genocide," but says genocide may include causing serious mental harm to a group

Chief Justice McLachlin appears to be the highest-ranking Canadian official to use the phrase. Former Liberal prime minister Paul Martin used it two years ago in describing residential schools for aboriginal children when he testified before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission set up by the Conservative government. That commission is to make its report public next week.

"The most glaring blemish on the Canadian historic record relates to our treatment of the First Nations that lived here at the time of colonization," Chief Justice McLachlin said. She was delivering the fourth annual Pluralism Lecture of the Global Centre for Pluralism, founded in 2006 by the Aga Khan, spiritual leader of Ismaili Muslims, and the federal government.

After an initial period of inter-reliance and equality, she said Canada developed an "ethos of exclusion and cultural annihilation."

"The objective – I quote from Sir John A. Macdonald, our revered forefather – was to 'take the Indian out of the child,' and thus solve what was referred to as the Indian problem. 'Indianness' was not to be tolerated; rather it must be eliminated. In the buzz-word of the day, assimilation; in the language of the 21st century, cultural genocide." She made clear that this treatment extended well into the 20th century.

John Borrows, Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Law at the University of Victoria, called the Chief Justice's use of the term "unparalleled" in Canadian history.

He said the term is unlikely to have legal consequences, but carries symbolic importance coming from the Chief Justice. "A lot of indigenous people and other people have been asking for that word to be part of our vocabulary because it does more fully communicate the weight of what happened."

Peter Russell, a political science professor emeritus at the University of Toronto, said that Chief Justice McLachlin shares with virtually all Supreme Court judges since a landmark rights case in 1990 "a tremendous sense of sorrow about the denial of very fundamental rights to Canada's native people."

Chief Justice McLachlin, who has been on the court since 1989 and chief since 2000, is its longest-serving chief justice. She cited early laws barring treaty Indians from leaving reservations, rampant starvation and disease and the denial of the right to vote.

She also pointed to the outlawing of aboriginal religious and social traditions, such as the potlatch and the sun dance, and to residential schools, in which children who had been taken from their parents "were forbidden to speak their native languages, forced to wear white man's clothing, forced to observe Christian religious practices and sometimes subjected to sexual abuse.

The objective was to 'take the Indian out of the child,' and thus to solve what John A. Macdonald referred to as the 'Indian problem.'"

Chief Justice McLachlin authored the court's unanimous ruling last June that legal observers called the most important aboriginal-rights decision in Canadian history. The court determined that native Canadians still own their ancestral lands, unless they signed away their ownership in treaties with government. While they do not retain absolute control, the ruling gives them enormous leverage in negotiations with outside parties that wish to develop their lands. The court granted title to the Tsilhqot'in Nation to an area more than half the size of greater Vancouver, though only 400 people lived there when when the British Crown asserted its sovereignty in 1846.

In her speech, she said Canada had learned from its mistakes, and she cited Prime Minister Stephen Harper's 2008 apology to aboriginal peoples for the abuses of the residential schools.

The event was held in partnership with The Globe and Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:48 AM

Doesn't link?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:00 AM

IMO it would do a lot more good for them to focus on the cultural genocide going on in today's world in places like Myanmar, Syria and Iraq sub-Saharan Africa etc. It's all well and good to acknowledge and atone for past injustices but there are peoples in need of help today, you know learn from your past mistakes to avoid having them repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:19 AM

But that could cost money. Breast beating about past wrongs is a lot cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:41 AM

Thanks for linking-It did not work for me.

Just because one country has a poor record than others of treating a segment of its population well, it does not logically follow that one should ignore the poor treatment of population segments in other countries.

In the case of Canada, a relatively wealthy "western nation" with an otherwise good human rights record, one would expect a high standard of reatment of all its citizens- better than many other less-resourced nations.

As recently as last year, a United Nations representative, tasked with reporting on the plight of Indiginous people worldwide, identified that a large number of Canadas First Nations peoples live in third-world type conditions.

Last year, Canada was the only UN member signing on to a UN indiginous rights document.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:42 AM

"Past wrongs" do persist into on today.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Stu
Date: 29 May 15 - 10:00 AM

Tibet. Cultural and actual genocide, but dead Tibetans don't make money so the west has stopped giving a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,just a-passin' thru
Date: 29 May 15 - 10:55 AM

Yeah, once the glam rock stars stopped wearing "Free Tibet" shirts, the plugged-in/disconnected generation went back to its oblivious bliss.

Now your gentrified noo-yawk neighborhoods are spawning hipsters with ironically crappy instruments playing ironically corny music, so, once again, the inauthentic is sexier than being engaged with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:15 PM

EdT-The better question might be, how many countries haven't? Every empire (including the ones that preferred to call themselves democracies or people's republics) has felt the need to convert, displace, or just plain exterminate people who had the bad luck to have gotten there first.(we like to use terms like "indigenous" or "aboriginal", but the truth is that humans are migratory by nature)

The last hundred or so years have been particularly bad--in the 20th Century, democide, which has been roughly defined as "murder by your own government"(and a term created because "genocide" was too restrictive) surpassed war as the leading cause of unnatural death. And the numbers aren't even close--there is a new name for murderous gov'ts-mortocracies, and they are classified by the numbers they have killed-

Megamurders are those gov'ts that have killed a million or more, and include Japan, Cambodia, Ottoman Turkey, Vietnam, Poland, Pakistan, North Korea, Mexico, and Tsarist Russia

Deka-Megamurderers are gov'ts that have killed ten million or more, and include the big ones that we all know--People's Republic of China, USSR, Nazi Germany(a bit of a surprise that they only rank third), and a dark horse, the Kuomintang Republic of China(at least for those of us who forgot that Chiang-Kai-Shek committed the single most horrific act in human history when, on July 9th, 1938, he blew up the dike at Huayauankou on the south bank of the Yellow River, flooding 21,000 square miles, killing more than a million of his own people, and leaving 12 million homeless)

Cento-kilo murderers(100,000 or more, and who are an anticlimax, compared to the above) Include Attaturk's Turkey, the UK, Portugal, Rwanda and Indonesia.

In addition to these deaths, one of the better kept secrets concerning "The Good War" is that between 500,000 and 2 million ethnic Germans died between 1944-1950 as the result of displacement, evacuation and expulsion, much of which was related to the redefinition of borders in the Pottsdam Agreement.

Though the US, in this time period, at least, didn't murder enough of it's own to make the list (like it did in the 19th century), it certainly was a party to some of the above--and don't mention the wars...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:40 PM

So, Stim, what's the best future course-especially for the countries who "claim" to be leaders in human rights? What is your suggestion for that?

Is it best to "continue the course" , just because such activities continue today in third world countries and under questionable leadership? Or, are there lessons to be learned from the past and a higher road to be selected?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:10 PM

Did we forget Ukraine? Although was it them? or Russia?

Holdolamor??

Anyway, at noon on Sunday, this Sunday, they are ringing bells across Canada and hopefully around the world, for the children who were abused in residential schools across Canada. Please ring a bell.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:50 PM

Genocide of the Yazidi.
Their religion predating Christianity and gone in a few months, their girls and women taken into slavery.
A daily atrocity against Shia and Christian.
Who cares?
Who will do anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:20 AM

mg-Stalin's campaign against the Ukraine is counted in the total for USSR-

Keith- About 400,000 of the Yazidi are in the the Kurdistan area of Northern Iraq. Perhaps another 50,000 are under the care of Syrian Kurds, and a smaller number are in Turkey. As to the women, that have been sold into slavery, I have heard that Iraqi Kurds are very quietly making efforts to buy them back. There is, of course, no hope for the dead.

EdT-"What is the best future course?" Well, thank you for asking;-)

As terrible and enormous as these events are, most people barely know about them. The estimates for genocides/democides in the 20th Century run as high as 270 Million, but with a few exceptions, they are rarely spoken about. And for the most part, that is after the fact.

Before we can deal with these things, we have to a least acknowledge them. And that is as far as I've gotten on this...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:03 AM

The system of Empire was built on cultural genocide and some of today's poorest countries are the products of those monoliths.
The planet is still being plundered and entire peoples are being absorbed and their cultures destroyed in the pursuit for wealth, oil and timber are obvious examples.
The process used to be known as 'civilising'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:43 AM

The system of Empire was in most cases based on taking control of land and stealing the 'surplus' generated by it's previous occupants, in some cases (e.g. British India) with the aid of local elites.

Actual genocide - killing off the previous occupants - mainly happened due to economic migration.

The cultural changes seem to be mainly due to the activities of organised religions, especially the catholic church.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:18 AM

One of the first acts of colonisation was to send in the church representatives to teach 'the savages' the error of their ways.
This lead to the collapse of native cultures, the break-up of communities and the dependency of people to survive on the crumbs that dropped from the white-man's table
The Belgians were responsible for the deaths of up to 10 million Congolese, in the drive for rubber - failure too meet quotas resulted in the tapper's hands being amputated.
Sounds like genocide to me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:23 AM

The subject is "cultural genocide".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:29 AM

So, not actual genocide.

The expunging of Christian cultures in many parts of the Middle East should count then.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:32 AM

Here we go again with Keith's bugaboo of "Christian Persecution".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 15 - 09:45 AM

I referenced persecution of Yazidis and Shia Muslim before mentioning Christians.
It is you who have a bugaboo Greg, against Christians.
You even joked that they deserve to be persecuted and killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 15 - 10:09 AM

Not so, Keith- YOU deserve to be persecuted. Killed? I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 May 15 - 10:26 AM

What absolute nastiness...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 15 - 10:53 AM

Greg, do you deny saying they deserved death and persecution, later claiming it to be a joke?
Many here will remember it.
I could easily find it if you need reminding.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:18 AM

G'way kid, ya bother me!

W.C. Fields

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:24 AM

"Many here will remember it."
I remember it as being a joke, if that's what you mean, but when in a corner, grab anything that comes to hand, as tey say
Leave it Keith (unless you intend to close this thread) -it was a poor taste joke and identified as such by the joker.
The real problem with many of these threads is people who actually mean what they say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:39 AM

Current estimates are that 6000 people were systematically murdered or otherwise disposed of by residential schools. The last two closed in the mid 1990s. That estimate was arrived at by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada headed by Justice Murray Sinclair. The final report will be released in July. Six volumes. Justice Sinclair seems to think there are more deaths unaccounted for. I fully expect our present government in Ottawa will whitewash it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:39 AM

it was a poor taste joke

Yes it was.

and identified as such by the joker.

No. It never was.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:48 AM

If superstition makes you anything like Keith in your outlook, perhaps it should wither and die out. He seems the sort able to tie his own boot laces, so without superstitious nonsense clouding his vision, he may even begin enjoying life.

In the meantime, if it is Christians being persecuted he wants action. If it is Christians persecuting, he calls you a liar for mentioning it.

Sick fuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 15 - 12:04 PM

More nasty, personal attack.
I hope it can just be deleted and not the whole thread.

Why not try to follow it with a reasoned post on the issue of the thread Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 May 15 - 12:09 PM

If you're not going to restrict posts on this thread to cultural genocide in Canada then kindly go away. You people have become good exemplars of why some mammals eat their young.

I know it's your thread, Ed T, so if I've overstepped protocol please excuse me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 15 - 12:11 PM

No. It never was.

See: he can't read. Full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 May 15 - 12:37 PM

There are some really ugly comments here, some people have so sense of their own stupidity nor do they have any sense of how nasty they seem in the yes of others. How many times do some dogs have to run in circles before they realize that the tail is attached to them.
   It wasn't a joke gone wrong..it was pure nastiness and I, for one, am sick to death of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 30 May 15 - 01:29 PM

Jim, good point--the Belgian atrocities in the Congo were forgotten for a long time, but now have been recognized as the first genocide/democide of the 20th Century. However, we all seem to have forgotten that conflicts and atrocities have been going on there since 1996 that have resulted it what may be as many as 5.4 million deaths.http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/genocides-and-conflicts/congo


Keith, I see your question about Christians as the expression of a real and justified concern about the welfare of minority populations in areas of political upheaval. No question that they are at risk.

I would add that minority Muslim populations have the same vulnerability, as we can see from the current boat exodus from Myanmar, which   involves large numbers of Muslim Rohingya who are fleeing persecution by the Buddhist majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 15 - 02:30 PM

Yes, I have been following their story too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 03:36 AM

Following but not mentioning..

Hey #! Bruce baby. The problem is, keeping the thread about Canada is a wee bit limiting to say the least. I know a bit about a few ski resorts and have a bit of a soft spot for Vancouver, but I'm not sure many on here could fill a whole thread about any of colonies, let alone one that tries speaking to you in French now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:59 AM

Yeah, and this is the 100th anniversary of the genocide of Armenians by the Turks. The term genocide was coined to describe what happened there in Turkey in 1915. Several Armenian women in one village were crucified naked to mock their religious beliefs. Well over a million Armenians lost their lives.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 15 - 07:30 AM

"Following but not mentioning."
Their refugee crisis has only been reported here over the last couple of weeks, and there ar
Like the Gay Cake thread yesterday,e other refugee boat crises ongoing.
Their plight was referred to and briefly discussed in the Christian Persecution thread that I started, but had to be closed because of all the nastiness.

Like the Gay Cake and the All Changed threads yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:26 AM

I'm still savouring the delicious irony of Musket indulging his obsession with Israel in a thread about tolerance and acceptance of same sex unions. Take a look at Israel's policies toward LGBT rights and compare it with her neighbours'....you will be amazed.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:04 AM

BIT BETTER THAN THIS I SUPPOSE - JUST AS AMAZING THOUGH!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:18 AM

MUCH BETTER THAN THIS THOUGH

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:24 AM

Oh and your link has absolutely nothing to do with Israel's LGBT policies, you're just trolling for anything that supports your contempt for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:39 PM

"Oh and your link has absolutely nothing to do with Israel's LGBT policies,"
No it hasn't, but as you keep accusing critics of Israel of Antisemitism, I thought it might interest you.
Israel's fight for equal rights for gays has been a long and difficult one - Zionist opposition featuring largely, Gay-bashing, even a stabbing on a Gay Pride march.
Your smugness in comparing what happens in impoverished Arab countries, to the situation in a wealthy, powerful and supposed civilised State like Israel is irrelevant, and in no way excuses terrorism by the Israeli regime.
Jim Carroll

"Azar's prominence in popular culture within a society where homophobic attitudes remain deeply embedded in certain sectors is but one example of the triumphs and tensions that come with being gay in Israel today. Many of the basic rights for LGBT people have already been won, but formal legal equality, especially on the issue of marriage, remains elusive. Tel Aviv is today one of the most gay-friendly cities in the world, but in Jerusalem—just one hour down the road—it is almost impossible to be gay and live openly.
Being gay in Israel, then, is to be witness to a series of contradictions, paradoxes which show that Israel is in many ways a multicultural society within which LGBT people—not only celebrities—have been able to find a place for themselves."

"LGBT Rights
Although in recent years there has been a growing recognition of gay and lesbian rights in the public and legal arenas in Israel, the LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgendered) community still faces various forms of discrimination by government authorities and in the private sector. LGBT men and women, and particularly transgendered persons, also experience discrimination in employment and health services, and are often the target of verbal and physical violence.
ACRI has achieved many significant victories in the struggle for LGBT rights, in particular concerning the rights of same-sex couples, including with regards to marriage registration for marriages conducted outside of Israel, spousal and medical benefits for same-sex partners, protecting inheritance rights, recognition of same-sex partners by the Israeli Military, recognition of adoption by same-sex couples, prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, and ensuring equal access to medical treatment, housing and mortgage assistance, pensions, and life insurance."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:17 PM

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) rights in Israel have generally been seen as one of the most advanced in the Middle East and Asia.[1] Same-sex sexual activity was legalized in 1988, although the former law against buggery had not been enforced since a court decision of 1963.[2] Israel became the first in Asia to recognize unregistered cohabitation between same-sex couples, making it the only country in Asia to recognize any same-sex union thus far. Although same-sex marriages are not performed in the country, Israel recognizes same-sex marriages performed elsewhere, making it the first and only country in Asia to do so. Discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation was prohibited in 1992. Same-sex couples are allowed to jointly adopt after a court decision in 2008, while previously allowing stepchild adoptions and limited co-guardianship rights for non-biological parents. Gays and lesbians are also allowed to serve openly in the military.


Recent polls have indicated that a majority of Israelis support same-sex marriage, despite some social conservatism.[3] Tel Aviv has frequently been referred to by publishers as one of the most gay friendly cities in the world,[4] famous for its annual Pride Parade and gay beach,[5] earning it the nickname "the gay capital of the Middle East" by Out magazine.[6] According to LGBT travelers, it was ranked as the best gay city in 2011,[7] despite reports of some LGBT violence during the 2000s,[8] which were criticized by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and President Shimon Peres. A monument dedicated to the gay victims of the Holocaust was erected in Tel Aviv in 2014.[9]


Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:27 PM

Didn't say Israel haven't made advances - just that it wa a hard stuggle to get there and they still have a way to go.
None of which makes an iota of difference to the fact that Israel is an extremist terrorist state.
One again, the Israeli Government has been forced to abandon plans to introduce a test period od segregated public transport
Sounds like post South Africa to me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 02:14 PM

The guest hadn't used the word irony, which is interesting.

I know quite a few Israeli people and was in Tel Aviv only last year visiting old friends who set up an agency for my business in those parts.

Don't confuse my detestation for the military objectives of a right wing criminal government with any social views of individuals.

Oh, by the way. We went to a BBQ held by his son and partner. They hope to marry one day.

Fucking troll.

Hey! If people love to confuse religion with state sponsored terrorism and say normal people are being anti Semitic, crack a load of how the bastards treated the Ethiopian Jews who sought sanctuary in Israel. It'll make your beard curl.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 02:34 PM

It seems , if yo're Gay in Israel, you're O.K. (sort of) but being the wrong colour or religion - different matter altogether.
They may have been welcomed into the 21st century as far as same sex partnerships are concerned, but, race - still runnin neck and neck with 1960s Mississippi.
ISRAELI RACISM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 15 - 04:10 PM

Amnesty on Hamas, reported in Guardian,

"As well as the unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire, or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatients' clinic within the grounds of Gaza City's main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict and accused of collaboration died in custody."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:14 PM

What has that to do with anything Keith? Hamas have some evil fuckers fighting alongside them, just like Israel.

Does the action of one terrorist organisation make the state terrorism of Israel ok then? Your assertion that condemning one set of twats makes you a supporter of another set says more about you and your agenda than it does the point you are trying to make to the debate.

Amnesty eh? I think their reporting of Israelis bombing schools and hospitals forgot to use the term "legitimate targets" unlike your own comments at the time, as I recall.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:30 PM

Extracts from the summary by the Secretary-General of the report of the United Nations Headquarters Board of Inquiry into certain incidents that occurred in the Gaza Strip between 8 July 2014 and 26 August 2014:


    Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in UNRWA schools. The board found, in the case of the UNRWA Jabalia Elementary "C" and Ayyobiya Boys School, referring to the discovery of weapons there on 22 July 2014, that "it was highly likely that a Palestinian armed group might have used the premises to hide weapons."

    Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad stored rockets in schools that were in active use by children. During the war, former PLO lawyer Diana Buttu famously said on Al Jazeera that "the rockets that were found in the schools in UNRWA were schools that are not being used by anybody—school is out, I'll have you know." However, in the UNRWA Gaza Beach Elementary Co-educational "B" School, on 16 July 2014, the UN Board of Inquiry notes that the school gate was unlocked during the period leading up to the incident "in order to allow children access to the schoolyard." School was out, but UNRWA was inviting the children back in to play.

    Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad fired rockets from UNRWA schools. In the Jabalia school listed above, the board found that "it was highly likely that an unidentified Palestinian armed group could have used the school premises to launch attacks on or around 14 July." Similarly, concerning weaponry stored at the UNRWA Nuseirat Preparatory Co- educational "B" School, the UN inquiry found that "the premises could have been used for an unknown period of time by members of a Palestinian armed group" — and that "it was likely that such a group may have fired the mortar from within the premises of the school."


Full Text: UN Board of Inquiry on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:56 PM

highly likely - might have - could have - likely

Translation: no evidence.

Now, how about some report extracts on Israel's doings dduring the same period.

NOTE:

"UN Watch" is a Geneva-based organization closely associated with rightist sectors in the United States and Israel that claims to monitor compliance of the United Nations with its charter. According to its website, UN Watch "serves as the central forum for discussing international economic and social issues, and for formulating policy recommendations addressed to Member States and the United Nations system."[1]

Despite efforts to paint itself as an independent watchdog group, UN Watch has repeatedly been accused of having a staunchly "pro-Israel" bias and on outlook on Middle East peace that is closely in line with that of Israel's right-wing Likud Party. For many years, the group was funded by the American Jewish Committee (AJC)—publisher of the neoconservative flagship journal Commentary, whose editors have included Norman Podhoretz and Irving Kristol—which has made use of its offices in Geneva, as well as those of other affiliated groups, including the Transatlantic Institute in Brussels.[2]
- See more at: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/UN_Watch#sthash.RFbQHPQi.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 07:09 PM

The text is from the the UN board of inquiry.

Nice try at the attempt to smear though.

Despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 07:13 PM

highly likely - might have - could have - likely

Translation: no evidence.

I'm sure the terrorist group Hamas was very cooperative with the UN investigators.

Use your head,fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 08:10 PM

Got anything other than childish insults, guest? Like facts, perhaps?

Still waiting for the excerpts from the same Board of Inquiry report on Israeli activities.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 09:57 PM

Got anything other than childish insults

Got to hand it to you for chutzpah.

You, of all people.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:15 AM

Guest of all people?

Guest is the name of the contributor who, to date, seems to have supported terrorism, questioned whether getting a stiffy for young girls is wrong, questioned whether black people are capable of strategic thinking and reckons Muslims are all rapists.

Nobody is interested in your actual name, after all, most decent people would cross the street to avoid weirdos, but if you can't have courage if a consistent moniker, you have nothing to add, and from your partisan bullshit, even less to add anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:42 AM

None of these quote over what happened last year deal with the mass murder of civilians by the Israeli forces, where hospitals, schools health centres and old people's homes were deliberately targeted using sophisticated and sometimes illegal weaponry.
An early act following the war wasfor Israel to enlist the support of the U.S. to oppose an enquiry into what happened.
BAN THE INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES COURT
Equivalent to a suspected criminal demanding that the court be abolished.
Bruce the Beirdie isn't the only one cringing behind six million dead to defend war crimes and atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLon
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:01 AM

"cringing behind six million dead" I can't believe you actually said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:21 AM

"I can't believe you actually said that."
Anybody who accuses critics of Israel for war war crimes of Antisemitism is doing exactly that
According to the fully accepted European definition of Antisemitism, it is Antisemitic to attribute the behaviour of Israel to the Jewish people as a whole - these people do exactly that constantly.
Not only are they absolving Israel of the war crimes they have undoubtedly committed, they are attributing those crimes to the Jewish people as a whole - Antisemitic, whichever way you look at it.
Don't believe it, trawl through the threads and see how many times it has happened (our anonymous guest once posted as 'Bearded Bruce' - his favourite ploy)   
In trying to avoid a War Crimes enquiry into what happened last year, the Israeli regime are indulging in the same practice.
Should they succeed in abolishing the International Crimes body, there will be no significant independent method of examining and trying international crime, atrocities and human rights abuses, whoever commits them.
Work it out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:27 AM

I still can't believe you actually said that !

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:41 AM

Why - how would you describe their behaviour?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:59 AM

None of which makes an iota of difference to the fact that Israel is an extremist terrorist state.

Says who Jim?
You and your gang obviously, but no-one who actually knows anything.
No democratic government for instance.
No European or any EU state including the one where you live.
It is not a terrorist state, but it is surrounded by actual, acknowledged terrorist states.
Hamas' Gaza, Hezbollah occupied Lebanon, Syria and IS, so why do you always and only criticise Israel?
Why no threads about them, or Saudi, Yemen, Libya, Egypt?

The region is full of nasty regimes all far nastier than Israel that at least has the excuse of being constantly under attack and fighting for its very survival.
So again, why do you always and only criticise Israel?
And Jim, why did you post about the antics of one small group of Jews, NOT Israelis, but never about the antics of minority groups within, say, Islam or any other religion.
(Apart from Christians obviously)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 06:52 AM

"Says who Jim?"
The facts, which you spend a great deal of time denying.
The U.S. has used its veto over 100 times to prevent Israel being tried faor war crimes.
Sabra/Shatila is an open book on Israel's facilitating the massacre of over 3,000,000 unarmed refugees - denied by Israel, supported by nobody else.
The fact that self-interested nations have remained silent does not make the photographs and films of white phosphorus showering down on occupied areas, or of flechette missiles or the reports of occupied hospitals being destroyed, or of the movement of nomadic peoples onto toxic rubbish dumps..... (all reported and verified) go away.
That there are "nastier people" around is indisputable - many of them are Britain's allies and customers for their weapons, but this does not alter the fact that Israel is a terrorist state - all the political opportunism and self-interested appeasement proves nothing - the Western World saton its hands and watched while the regime which sent six million Jews into the gas chambers rose to power.
Even Jews recognise Israel as being a terrorist state - the definition of Antisemitism carefully disassociates itself from Israeli behaviour.
s early as 1949, some of the finest Jewish minds, including Albert Einstein, posted a letter to the press warning of the Zionist fascism in Israel - were they antisemitic.
The fact that politicians and statesmen prevent one of the world's great war criminals prevent a regime from standing trial is not an indication of innocence - if Israel is so innocent, why not prove it publicly?
"why did you post about the antics of one small group of Jews....."
Possibly for the same reason you have persistently attempted tp show that the behaviour of a minuscule number of criminals in Britain is the result of their culture
In my case, I believe that all religious fundamentalism gives rise to insanity such as 'women shouldn't drive cars"
What's your excuse?
Why don't I condemn Muslim extremism - I do - I denied all forms of religious extremism without qualification or excuse.
I tend not to seperate one from the other because there are people (no names mentioned) who use the condemnation of the behaviour of extremists to condemn whole cultures.
Israel is a nuclear power and therefore a special case while it is in the hands of expansionist extremists - a world threat.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:02 AM

How many countries attempted cultural genocide?

The Spanish pretty much every place they colonized. Or you might put it this way:

The ________ pretty much every place they colonized. (Fill in the blank with any country that has ever established a colony on populated land.)

I live in one of those colonies now. Make no mistake. Guam is a colony no matter how they dress it up with the name of "territory."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:33 AM

Shou;d read "I "condemn" all forms of religious extremism" - of course - vener denied any of it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:45 AM

The use of the term in the article quoted in the opening post, and so the question How many countries attempted cultural genocide?, is more specific than that.

Did something similar happen in Australia ? (e.g.link)

But how much of it was a consequence of colonialists making gains by enforcing economic changes that destroyed societies, rather than wanting to change cultures to be more like them ? That might include some areas of influence of both the USA and Soviet regimes (and maybe the World Bank).

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:46 AM

That was to Naemanson's post

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 08:13 AM

Jim, if all that is true, why do all democracies including yours treat it as an equal, and not as a terrorist state?

Because you and your little gang are wrong about it, and perhaps have your own reasons for always and only attacking Israel while ignoring the far worse crimes of all its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 08:17 AM

There are some other interesting North Amerucan examples, such as the missionary exploits in Hawaii, where much of the original culture was "snuffed out" and replaced (an exception are those retained to entertain the tourists).

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

There are examples throughout the world and throughout all history, indeed it might be said that there is virtually no place on the planet that has been untouched by colonialism, in one or other of it's forms, in some time in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 08:32 AM

Here's hoping this thread won't be "genocided" once Ilsa gets up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 11:47 AM

Err. Keith.. The UK is one of many EU countries supporting UN censure of Israel. The votes are usually vetoed by The USA.

A few years ago, the Foreign Secretary Jack Straw referred to Palestine and called on Israel to stop military activities outside its own borders contrary to UN blah blah

I'm sorry that The UK and many other EU countries don't appear to be alive, eminent and in agreement with you but your fantasy has to have some limits.

Interestingly, when I was in Israel last year, I was heartened by the vigil outside their MOD equivalent HQ, Israelis calling "Uncle Bibi" a terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:35 PM

"Jim, if all that is true, why do all democracies including yours treat it as an equal, and not as a terrorist state?"
For the same reason Britain regards Saudi Arabia as an equal and sends representatives to their King's funeral while a journalist is being given 1000 lashes for speaking out of turn - political pragmatism.
Ireland is not "my" country, by the way - I was born in Britain, am a British citizen and only moved here 16 years ago.
How about responding to Israel's crimes instead of telling us who supports them - we all ready know there is no marality to buisness and political interests.
You have the facts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:47 PM

That is the point Jim.
They are not recognised as crimes by the democracies.
Only by you people and Israel's other enemies.

Musket,
Err. Keith.. The UK is one of many EU countries supporting UN censure of Israel.

I think you just made that up.
Tell us more about it.

There was a UN debate on September 23, 2014, under Agenda Item 7, "The Human rights situation in Palestine and other occupied Arab territories."

Israel walked out, and the EU went with them.

"The State of Palestine expressed its disappointment at Israel's decision not to participate in this agenda item of the Council. The occupation and numerous human rights violations by Israel for the last 47 years made Israel the world's biggest violator of human rights."

"United Arab Emirates for the Arab Group expressed extreme discontent about the European Union's decision to boycott this agenda item."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:59 PM

EU Relations with Israel

The EU and Israel committed themselves to establishing a partnership which provides for close political and mutually beneficial trade and investment relations together with economic, social, financial, civil scientific, technological and cultural cooperation.

The Action Plan concluded with Israel helped give new energy and focus to EU-Israel relations. Its objective is to gradually integrate Israel into European policies and programmes. Every step taken is determined by both sides and the Action Plan is tailor-made to reflect Israel's interests and priorities as well as its level of development.

There is also, for the first time, a financial assistance element to EU-Israel cooperation - Israel is eligible for €14 million in European Community financial cooperation over the next seven years.

The legal basis for the EU's relations with Israel is the EU-Israel Association Agreement .

As a result of the Action Plan discussions on the most contentious issue of EU-Israel relations over the years, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, have been stepped up.
http://eeas.europa.eu/israel/index_en.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:02 PM

They are not recognised as crimes by the democracies.
Only by you people and Israel's other enemies.
So giving a human being 1000 lashes isn't a crime against a human being or yousing white phosporous isn't a human rights abuse - or bombing hospitals...
isn't a crim against huanity because the free west doesn't protest it - give us a break Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:09 PM

Or Pinocet wasn't a mass murderer because he had Thatcher's support, or Papa Doc, because he ws bankrolled by the yanks? - or Franco, or Salazar, or Assad, or Qadaffi..
What a strange morality you Christians have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:13 PM

the free west doesn't protest it

Correct.
Proper democracies understand that Israel is a decent country forced to defend itself from enemies all around seeking its destruction and another genocide of the Jews.

All the EU countries including Ireland.
Other European countries like Switzerland.
Scandinavian countries.
Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

All you have are the really nasty regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:21 PM

"Proper democracies understand that Israel is a decent country forced to defend itself from enemies"
Israel is a terroriat state that massacres refugees and civilians
The only thing it is defending is the right to drive peole from ther hiomes t expand their territory
Anybody who tries to set up monotheist apartheid State is aq political thug
Yo have tried to deny what they are doing and have faled, now you are just endorsing it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:25 PM

i see ed t is leading this discussion, who a few years ago was denying torture and killing olf native children. pretty much until it appeared on the national news on all three Canadian national channels. the official 6000 dead is still rising. it used to be a few hundred then a thousand then ythree thousand. there were approximately fifty thousand children who are unaccounted for. a full third of the residents. they are only counting those they know what happened to. this is a direct parallel to Nazi holocaust denial. mess with the numbers and ignore murder and compensation.

and the churches were part of the larger imperial plan and got paid well. the Anglican and Presbyterian churches were allowed to use their ministers as magistrates in many reserves. they fined the locals their land for the offence of not attending church. about half the money collected in that land grab was sent to the Scottish Presbyterian church and the English Anglican church. it was good business stealing native land.   there is a well documented case in british Columbia of magistrate Webster who seized hundreds of thousands of acres of excellent forest land then sold it to the major logging companies for a kick back and to finance the church in England Scotland and locally.   the native never got it all back. the court system is so stacked aginst them they had to face forty more years of litigation or settle for half. so any idea that it's all int he past is just more holocaust denial. natives are still suffering the effects and still arte owed compensation for abuse and for the stolen land.

of course there is almost no point in trying to discuss this with mudcatters. holocaust denialist all around.(joe defends actual Nazis when given half the chance --so long as they are nice middle class and have nice middle class families)

and joe tries to turn the conversation to Armenia to deflect the fact his catholic church was convicted of torture in Canadian courts. and sexually abused and murdered many children. AND attempted to have the torture convictions sealed against all Canadian law--criminal courts are public.

these evil churches and their evil leaders stole and raped and right up to recent years have been on a vicious campaign to discredit anyone fighting for native rights.. look at the treatement of kevin annett, who publicly exposed the magistrate scandal of land stealing in british Columbia. demonized, expelled from his church and followed by the secret police every day. with bill c 51 he will be on terrortists watch list--wait and see. all of this is easily documented if one cares enough to look it up--(I used to be told by racists like gno, q and ed t to prove it)

this isn't restricted to canada. they did this all over the british empire. look at the Kenyan land grab and the incarceratioln of over a quarter million people to try and stop the land revolt--including children as young as eight and torture and major malnutrition in captivity. on pine ridge reservstion there were over 400 murders of native never investigated by the fbi or anyone else.   because they asrmed the people who did it to break native resistance. and the united states and their churches armed the Guatemalan regime that murdered a quarter million natives who were trying to get their land back. the anglo empires have done the land grab world wide and stopped at nothing to retain their money. to bad most of you have your heads in the sand and clearly espouse totally racist and genocidal opinions.
.shame on almost all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:47 PM

"i see ed t is leading this discussion, who a few years ago was denying torture and killing olf native children."

Not factual, merely fantasy from an inaccurate source, striking out indiscriminately with a past "burr in a foot"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:52 PM

So what about the future ollaimh. Had you noticed that it will come or do you live, as you write, in the past tense.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 05:35 PM

Israel is a terroriat state that massacres refugees and civilians

No it is not Jim.
That is all bollocks.
If there was any truth in it, decent countries would shun it.
They do not because it is not.

It used to be possible for you and your ilk to appear to make that case.
Post Syria and IS it is no longer possible for people like you to claim that Israel is the problem in the Middle East.
It is not and never was.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 06:16 PM

In 1972 I wrote in my journal:

'This ugly word [genocide] was *made* to be abused. The only word for murder should be "murder". It is as morally corroding to invent new words like "genocide" to make some kinds seem worse, as it is to invent words like "liquidation" to make other kinds seem better. It is of course worse to kill two human beings than one, and so on all the way up into the millions; but Hitler's crime was a crime not because the Jews were "a people", but because they were *people*. It would have been no smaller if the six million had been chosen by lot. The predicatable sequel to "genocide" is "cultural genocide", a notion that tries to attach the stigma of murder to any attempt at the integration of communities that the speaker disapproves of.'

I have not changed my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:30 AM

"If there was any truth in it, decent countries would shun it."
The "decent" countries, as you call them, were quite capable of it themselves - Britain with the Empire, America in VietNam, and all the other countries they carried out their clandestine and not-so-clandestine wars in pursuit of political power and wealth.
"Gallant little Belgium" (one of the cases we sacrificed a generation of young men for, slaughtered up to ten million Congolese for rubber, and if the quotas were not met, they removed the hands of those who failed to meet the targets.
More recently, Britain committed us to an ongoing war in the Middle East to safeguard oil supplies, in the process of which, it dragged us into bed with monsters like the Saudi despots, Qaddafi, Assad....
Thatcher ascertained that mass-murderer Augusto Pinochet never came to trial for the rape, torture and massacre of thousands of young people who had the temerity to oppose his coup.
The massacres that went on during the Greek coup in the sixties, uncommitted on in Britain - Greek politicians and royalty were treated as welcome guests while opponents to the Greek military regime were undergoing the same experiences as were Pinochet's victims.
Britain sold weapons, equipment and chemicals to the Assad regime, despite its record of torture and murder.
These "decent" countries don't give a toss at what happens as long as it's kept within borders and qut of sight.
All "decent" countries are interested in is trade and political co-operation - human rights doesn't feature on their agendas - but even so.....

SETTLEMENTS

WAR CRIMES

SETTLEMENTS

HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS

HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AGAIN

INTERNATIONAL CONDEMNATION - INCLUDING CAMERON

IRELAND AND THE UN

USE OF VETO

WOMEN IN ISRAEL

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:22 AM

It's a shame that a forum centred on music, especially on traditional music can't talk about the thin end of the wedge of CULTURAL genocide rather than going beyond the topic into genocide.

Shy of discussing all those little changes that can add up to changing a culture are we ? How about the really thin edge - things that most people would agree on, e.g. "to achieve universal primary education" . It's not possibly without change that could destroy a whole culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:36 AM

"Israel walked out, The EU went with them"

Good old Keith. I don't blame you. Your fantasy knows no bounds. EU countries have all, each and every one of them supported the 45 UN resolutions condemning Israel in their rogue state actions against Palestine.

Even you might be able to google that without calling me a liar for once.

Why don't you get back to telling us why schools and hospitals were legitimate targets for Israeli militants? Sadly, that really happened. I'm sure you must have prayed for their success eh?

😢

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 05:03 AM

I do not make things up Musket.
No fantasy from me.


There was a UN debate on September 23, 2014, under Agenda Item 7, "The Human rights situation in Palestine and other occupied Arab territories.

"The decision by the EU and other western countries to boycott anti-Israel proceedings at the UNHRC has many Islamic countries up in arms, as can be seen in the embedded video.

Agenda Item 7 of the UNHRC is entitled, "The Human rights situation in Palestine and other occupied Arab territories" and is directed atg Israel.

Pakistan, speaking for the Islamic Group at the UNHRC, expressed "deep disappointment that certain member states of the Western European and Others Group had ceased their participation under agenda item 7, which [is] particularly disturbing in the light of the latest Israeli behavior."

The United Arab Emirates, speaking for the Arab Group, expressed "extreme discontent about the European Union's decision to boycott this agenda item."

Addressing the assembly, UN Watch's Hillel Neuer lauded the boycott. In free and democratic societies, he explained, "right is preserved by an independent judiciary that is empowered to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority," but at the United Nations, "the system works differently. Here, the majority faction has the power to decide whatever it wants; there are no limits. The minority faction has no judicial recourse, no right of appeal, no remedy."

"Agenda Item 7 singles out one people, Israel, for differential and discriminatory treatment," he said, noting that in 1968, a similar form of discrimination took place in Tehran, at a UN Conference celebrating 20 years since the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. "When the author of that declaration, René Cassin, saw that Israel was being singled out, he walked out early in protest."

"Because sometimes," Neuer continued, "non-participation speaks loudest. Sometimes, it is the only remedy that can deny the legitimacy of a bigotry which cannot otherwise be challenged or overcome."

"Agenda Item 7 was denounced by Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon and human rights groups including Amnesty International," Neuer added. The EU, US, Canada, Australia, France, Britain, Holland did not take the floor. "The free and democratic world, echoing the appeal of René Cassin, has spoken for justice." "


Israel walked out, and the EU went with them.

"The State of Palestine expressed its disappointment at Israel's decision not to participate in this agenda item of the Council. The occupation and numerous human rights violations by Israel for the last 47 years made Israel the world's biggest violator of human rights."

"United Arab Emirates for the Arab Group expressed extreme discontent about the European Union's decision to boycott this agenda item."
http://www.arabamerica.com/video-muslim-states-at-un-seethe-over-eus-pro-israel-walkout/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 05:09 AM

No Western democracy calls Israel a "rogue state" or a "terrorist state."

You and Jim just make that up.

Israel like any state is not above criticism.
EU states have criticised Israel over the settlement issue.

They have not accused Israel of war crimes, massacres or human rights abuse.
That is just propaganda put out by Israel's enemies who are guilty of real crimes much worse than the trumped up accusations against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 05:19 AM

"The European Union and Israel share a long common history, marked by growing interdependence and cooperation. Both share the same values of democracy, a respect for freedom and rule of law and are committed to an open international economic system based on market principles. Israeli political, industrial, commercial and scientific leaders maintain close links to Europe. Over five decades of trade, cultural exchanges, political cooperation and a developed system of agreements have cemented these relations."
http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/israel/eu_israel/political_relations/index_en.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 05:24 AM

"The legal framework for EU- Israel relations is provided by the The EU-Israel "Association Agreement" pdf - 548 KB [548 KB] signed in Brussels, on 20 November 1995, and following ratification by the 15 Member States parliaments, the European Parliament and the Knesset, entered force on 1 June, 2000. It replaces the earlier Cooperation Agreement of 1975.
The main features of the EU-Israel Association Agreement include provisions on regular political dialogue......."

"Among other things, the agreement states that the respect for human rights and democratic principles guides the internal and international policy of both Israel and the EU and constitutes an essential and positive element of the Agreement. At Israel's request, there is a Joint Declaration on the importance both parties attach to the struggle against xenophobia, anti-Semitism and racism."
http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/israel/eu_israel/political_relations/agreements/index_en.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 06:12 AM

You have th facts of Israel's behaviour - you have had them for a long time and you denied them.
You have claimed that no "decent" country condemned Israel - you have had international and internal responses condemning Israel including holocaust survivors - you ignore them.
Two years ago, a former leader of the Israeli security service described Israel as all but fascist - he pointedly stopped himself using the word 'Nazi'.
Israel is condemned throughout the world for its expansionists behaviour, for its treatment of Palestinian civilians, for its attempts to set up an apartheid State, for its murder of civilians, for its genocidal policies towards nomads.... all that is necessary is to open a newspaper or a book or turn on the television to confirm that Israel is a terrorist Sate.
Last year it slaughtered 2,000 plus Palestinian people, the most of them chivilans, and a large percentage of them children and old people.
They deliberately targeted hospitals, refuges, schools, health centres, using heavy artillery, chemicals and fragment weapons.... these are acts of a terrorist state.
Politicians and human rights groups throughout the world have condemned their actions.
Threats of making them answer their crimes in the International Criminal Court has led them to attempt to have the court abolished - backed by the U.S. -this will leave the world without a neutral body able to try war criminals from anywhere - (Isis included)
Those are the facts - we read them in all our newspapers, they appeared nightly on our televisions sets - they have been commented on by human rights groups, in Israel and outside.
Even that nice Mr Cameron has condemned them
You continue to defend them
Jim Carroll   
retribution threats

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 06:22 AM

That is all bollocks Jim.
If there was any truth in it, decent countries would shun Israel.
The reality is warm friendly relations between liberal democracies.

Post Syria and IS it is no longer possible for people like you to claim that Israel is the problem in the Middle East.
It is not and never was.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,dáithí
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 06:44 AM

The English, and later, British states practised cultural genocide form an early date in Ireland.
This included:
Seizing land, by conquest and settlement of their own citizens on land previously occupied by the indigenous people

Outlawing the religion, language, dress, music and customs of the indigenous people

Introdusing laws to specifically prevent those practising the religion of the majority of the indigenous people from inheriting land or property or from entering higher education.

Introducing National Schools to anglicise the indigenous population - a typical result in the 19th/early 20th centuries was that grandchildren could no longer speak the same language as their grandparents, which led to many old folk tales and songs being lost - and, overall, resulting in a deep-rooted lack of cultural confidence which has only recently started to lift.
Thanks lads!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 07:17 AM

Outlawing the religion, language, dress, music and customs of the indigenous people

And to this day, Ireland has no customs, traditions, music or religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 07:56 AM

"That is all bollocks Jim."
Yeah - we know these holocaust survivers, Jews For Justic, Davic Camero, The UN, Amnesty Internation and all the rest of them can't be trusted
and thopse photographs, news reports and film footage.... what can one say....!!!!
As you claim Keith - All bollocks
Now go and have oyur dinner and you can play in the garden later
Oh dear!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:01 AM

Jim, If there was any truth in it, decent countries would shun Israel.
The reality is warm friendly relations between liberal democracies.

Your prejudiced view of Israel is not held by governments.
It is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:19 AM

"Israel is condemned throughout the world for its expansionists behaviour"

"Expansionist"??? You mean something along the lines of what Russia has been doing recently? Being expansionist implicitly infers that the country being accused of being so is/has increased it's territory beyond it's previously recognised and established borders - for the benefit of those not bored shitless by this subject could any of the usual anti-Israeli "suspects" care to come up with any map that shows the boundaries of the State of Israel that is recognised by PA/Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah/Syria/Saudi Arabia/Lebanon, that indicates in any way that Israel is being "Expansionist".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:21 AM

"Jim, If there was any truth in it, decent countries would shun Israel."
You men like Saudi Arabia, Pinochet's Chile....
United States

BRITAIN

TYRANTS

You appear to be reduced to Dalek imitations again
Go away -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:25 AM

I must stop eating cheese.. I am under the impression I agree with Keith's last post.

You can't compare a country of yesterday with one of today. The role of the Westminster government in Ireland before any of us were even thought of is totally irrelevant.

Israel however are ignoring 45 UN resolutions to this day. Both The UK and Ireland, together with the rest of the civilised world (a quick way of saying except USA) support the resolutions. Resolutions using words which Jim and I are apparently making up....

As I said, some say good old Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:25 AM

Two words, T-Bird: West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:27 AM

I forgot the last line of my previous post.

Some say fuck him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:33 AM

You men like Saudi Arabia, Pinochet's Chile...

No.
I mean countries like Ireland and the other EU countries, Switzerland, Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand,....

Musket, you were wrong when you denied the EU walking out of the UN censure debate last September.
Or do you still say it is all a fantasy?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:42 AM

Musket,
Israel however are ignoring 45 UN resolutions to this day. Both The UK and Ireland, together with the rest of the civilised world (a quick way of saying except USA) support the resolutions. Resolutions using words which Jim and I are apparently making up..

I think you refer to the 45 UNHCR reolutions against Israel.
Here are the first 33.
None are supported by EU countries.
You were wrong again.
http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.3820041/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:43 AM

GUEST,dáithí - 02 Jun 15 - 06:44 AM

Oh dear dáithí perhaps you should read more, the "English" and later the "British" did exactly the same in Scotland and in Wales - Ireland was not singled out for special attention - as for the rest of it well that sort of behaviour was pretty much par for the course for all the nation states that acquired "Empires" during the course of the last 600 years. Prior to the Acts of Union coming into force to create what became known as the United Kingdom the other superpowers of Europe threatened the security of the British Isles by playing primarily the Scots and Irish for complete and utter fools and the daft beggars obliged them by falling for it every bloody time (Usual line was: "You rise up in rebellion and we will supply you with men, arms and money" - none of which ever materialised in any sort of quantity that would save the "rebels" let alone make any sort of success of the rebellion).

On the language thing however the British Missionary Society has been credited with saving rather a high number of languages from extinction by recording those languages in a written form for the first time and compiling their very first dictionaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:54 AM

"West Bank" GregF - that the part of the post-1923 mandated territory of Palestine specifically designated for settlement by Jew, Arab and Christian alike after 77% of the 1920 mandated territory had been given to the Arabs of Palestine specifically for their sole use and settlement, the country now known as Jordan?

"West Bank" GregF - that the part of the post-1923 mandated territory of Palestine that was taken from Palestine by force of arms, annexed and illegaly occupied by Jordan from 1948 until 1967?

As I said show me any map with the borders of Israel on it as recognised by the Palestinian Authority and the rest of the international community. The "Palestinians do claim to be "fighting" for a Two-State Solution aren't they? In which case they should be able to show the boundaries and recognised borders of those two states - or is that just a bit too logical for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 09:14 AM

OK, T-Bird, lets try another two: Occupied Territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 09:37 AM

Here are the first 33.
None are supported by EU countries.
You were wrong again.

Keith, use the blue clicky in the right-hand column of 6,19,25,29 and 30. Also note that some were adopted without a vote.

Were you wrong again ?

Can anyone explain what Cananda's problem is ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 09:40 AM

Who was already in the 'promised land' drawing the milk and harvesting the honey ? Is their culture forgotten ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 09:57 AM

Thanks Guest.
Those are all related to settlements which I acknowledged is an issue with EU.
Was Musket right to say "Israel however are ignoring 45 UN resolutions to this day. Both The UK and Ireland, together with the rest of the civilised world (a quick way of saying except USA) support the resolutions. " ?

No.
He was making stuff up.
There are more than 45 now, and EU countries support very few.
Just those relating to settlements.

Any reference to Israel as a "rogue state" as Musket claimed, or a "terrorist state" as Jim claimed?

No.
They were making stuff up.

Anything about massacres or war crimes?
No.
They were making stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 10:07 AM

Bolivia declares Israel a 'terrorist state'
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/30/bolivia-israel-terrorist-state/13384989/

Israel: The Original Terrorist State
http://tabletmag.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/books/189264/israel-original-terrorist-state

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 10:24 AM

Thanks Greg.
I am glad I did not put Bolivia on my list of Western liberal democracies.

The other link relates to Jewish terrorist groups' activities before Israel came into existence.

Here is the final paragraph,
"The other moral, however, is that Israel only exists because of the ability of Jews to defend themselves with force. The British could be driven out of Palestine because they had a home to go back to; but the Israelis have nowhere else to go, and so they can never give up fighting. If this is true, then the struggle which began in the 1920s is destined to go on until the Jews convince the Arabs that they are in Israel to stay. (This was the view Jabotinsky advanced in his famous essay "The Iron Wall," more than 90 years ago.) Whichever you believe, it's clear that the future of the Jewish state depends on the correct interpretation of the story Hoffman tells in Anonymous Soldiers."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 10:41 AM

Greg F. - 02 Jun 15 - 09:14 AM

"OK, T-Bird, lets try another two"

Wazzup Greg? - didn't the first two work then? Or is it only Arabs that are allowed to have "Occupied Territories" (e.g: Egypt - Gaza from 1948 until 1967 & Jordan - West Bank from 1948 until 1967) And GregF not only did the Egyptians and Jordanians take that land by force and occupy it illegally for damn near twenty years - they even had the brass-neck to shut Arab Palestinians up in refugee camps on their own land. Where are the refugee camps for the 800,000 Jews who were forcibly deported from Arab countries and who fled to Israel - There are of course no such camps - the Israelis allowed all refugees the right to fully assimilate and integrate as Israeli citizens.

Last elections held in Israel were when Greg? How many different political parties were represented? How many Israeli Arab candidates stood?

Last elections held by either the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank or by Hamas in Gaza were when? How many different political parties were represented? How many Jewish, Christian or other non-Muslim candidates stood?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 10:41 AM

Learn to read your own drivel, Keith. You said:

Any reference to Israel as a "rogue state" as Musket claimed, or a "terrorist state" as Jim claimed?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 10:43 AM

Some of your supporters for Israel

EUROPE

EUROPE AGAIN

And Again

IRELAND

SCANDINAVIA

THe US (with its enviable record on Human Rights!!) is the only country to come out in support of Israel
Even Britain has condemned her atrocities - that takes some doing
You are making it up
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM

I wasn't far off when I said 45. I don't know the actual number on account of it increasing all the time.

EU isn't a nation, prat. United Nations. The clue is in the name. Like I said, UN, including the nations of The EU support censure of Israel.

Keep denying it. Keep finding propoganda on web pages. Meanwhile, before writing this I checked the UN own's webpage for the data. It's amazing how figures are twisted eh?

What is it Keith? Support of military styled governments? Hatred of Muslims? If Palestine are them, Israel must therefore be us? Israelis look more western?

Why are you ruining whatever you see as your credibility to call reality a set of lies? What do I make up? I don't know much more than you to be honest and as most of it is second hand, it could be wrong, some of it. UN data could disguise something different. But get this. You don't know that any more than I do.

In the '30s we called it appeasement. I see the pattern now.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 11:46 AM

I wasn't far off when I said 45. I don't know the actual number on account of it increasing all the time.

These are UN HRC resolutions and most are not supported by EU countries.


You said
"Both The UK and Ireland, together with the rest of the civilised world (a quick way of saying except USA) support the resolutions."

which is complete bollocks Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 12:20 PM

I am beginning to lose track of who is supporting what line here. Keith links to a list from UN Watch ("UN Watch is a non-governmental organization based in Geneva whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations by the yardstick of its own Charter. )

That has an introduction to the list that includes The council has criticized Israel on 27 separate occasions, in resolutions that grant effective impunity to Hamas, Hezbollah and their state sponsors. Obsessed with condemning Israel, the Council in its first year failed to condemn human rights violations occurring in any of the world's 191 other countries. In its second year, the Council finally criticized one other country when it deplored the situation in Burma, but only after it censored out initial language containing the word "condemn." It even praised Sudan for its "cooperation."

In most cases where EU countries did not support the resolutions they abstained. That suggests distaste for a particular bandwagon rather than lack of criticism of Isreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 12:28 PM

Or to put it another way, abstaining from supporting Israel's enemies, but not voting against them, does not make you their friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 01:03 PM

does not make you Israel's friend.

Or their enemies friend either of course.

It must be comforting to see things in black and white

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,ForgotMyHandle
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 01:13 PM

Well, I knew this thread would eventually get to "The Jews." Convenient targets of persecution since...forever! About that--

How do any of you think any other country would deal with being surrounded by countries who have not even acknowledged that she exists, much less broken bread with her? And how have other countries dealt with threats that are nowhere near to being threats to their very existence, as it is with Israel??

Israel teaches her children to learn and to work for peace. Palestine teaches its children, starting before they learn to speak, to "kill the Jews." (Really, have you seen Palestinian textbooks??) Israel shoots at military targets and mourns the collateral deaths of non-combatants. Palestine aims at civilians and cheers louder the higher the number.

Anyway, it is "Burma," also known as "Myanmar," not the other way around. If you're a patriot, that is. And also,we can never possibly "repair" all the wrongs humans have done to each other. We can only start now to put peace at the core of our beings and cascade it out among our families, friends, neighbors, and elected officials.

And anyway anyway, I'm about to buy--at least I have put in an obscenely low bid--a guitar that I absolutely don't need, to keep the other 4 (or is it 7??) company. But it is so pretty. And the price, if it doesn't get bid up, is impossible to pass up. Somebody please help me, for I can not help meself. Yeesh!

OK, back to the thread drift, which I rudely interrupted...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 01:50 PM

Who was already in the 'promised land' drawing the milk and harvesting the honey ? Is their culture forgotten ?

Arab immigration to historic Palestine: a survey

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:07 PM

It is good of you to post this. But history is not the strong point of this lot by and large. In fact they are woefully bad at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:41 PM

Who was already in the 'promised land' drawing the milk and harvesting the honey ? Is their culture forgotten ?

I, the GUEST who asked, was thinking of "Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites, and Jebusites" (thanks to Wikipedia). You know, Moses, burning bush etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:57 PM

"hich is complete bollocks Musket."
The only bollocks here is your claim of Israeli support
Of the countries mentioned, the only one to give actual support is the United States - hardly a "decent" country as far as foreign policy is concerned.
That support is based on two factors - their plans for keeping their Middle East oil supplies secure are based on Israeli support.
The other is the fact that Israeli supporters in America are an extremely powerful and vocal force there and, should you cross them.
Canada has not supported Israel's war crimes, it has simply refused to denounce them
Apart from these, Israel has no support - even Obama choked on his bicci at the massacre that took place in Gaza.
You lied about Ireland supporting Isreal - Ireland has spoken out against the settlements and helped to formulate the motion condemning Israel in the U.N.
It remained neutral on Israel's being taken to the International War Crimes Court for the atrocities in Gaza, but due to pressure put by and influential Irisj Jewish minister, Leo Varadkar - even he hasn't been been able to muster support in the Dail.
Even if it were logical that war crimes aren't war crimes if "decent countries" don't spak out against them, your case is (once again) based on a tissue of lies and distortions.
no-one has supported the massacre of civilians in Gaza, no one openly supports Israel's expansionist policies, it flirting with apartheid, its ethnic cleansing of nomads, it's religion-based claims for the atrocities it is carrying out....
All the actions of a terrorist State, and the fact that they have nuclear arms (which they attempted to share with Apartheid South Africa) makes them the most dangerous terrorist state in the world
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:42 PM

Forgotmyhandle. You left it near your brain.

Palestinians are taught to hate whilst Israelis are taught to respect peace?

It must be a different Middle East I visit then. The one I visit has normal Israelis mounting demonstrations against their government's atrocities in their name whilst Palestinians are herded like cattle into low yield land with poor water supply.

That's the area I see with my own two eyes, not through biased media.

You are as bad as Keith. At least he calls reality bollocks so we can laugh at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 12:22 AM

Meanwhile, back in North America:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/truth-and-reconciliation-commission-urges-canada-to-confront-cultural-genocide-of-residential-schools-1.3096229

Truth and Reconciliation Commission urges Canada to confront 'cultural genocide' of residential schools

Testimony from thousands of residential school survivors leads to 94 recommendations

CBC News Posted: Jun 02, 2015 10:58 AM ET Last Updated: Jun 02, 2015 4:38 PM ET

Canada needs to move from "apology to action" if reconciliation with Aboriginal Peoples is to succeed, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission says in its landmark report, which includes 94 recommendations for change in policies, programs and the "way we talk to, and about, each other."

The summary of the final report, released today after years of hearings and testimony from thousands of residential school survivors and many others, makes many bold and potentially costly recommendations — not just to the different levels of government, but to schools, societies, churches and aboriginal governments.

The goal is to repair the relationship between aboriginal people and the rest of Canada.

The recommendations include the creation of a National Centre and Council for Truth and Reconciliation and the drafting of new and revised legislation for education, child welfare and aboriginal languages.

CBC News previously reported some of the recommendations — including the implementation of the UN Declaration on Indigenous Peoples — during an interview with Justice Murray Sinclair, the head of the commission, on The National on Monday night.

The commission was launched with a mandate to explore the history and legacy of the residential school system, and the process has faced hurdles — including the replacement of commission members and battles with the government over documents.

Read the rest of the story at the link. They offer lots of links to related stories.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 12:25 AM

Protesting the actions of ones government is the sign of a healthy democracy. It is not uncommon to see similar protests in London, Washington or Paris. However such protests do not always represent the views of the majority.
   In the years I spent there I never once heard anyone refer to Israel as "terrorist" state.
   I am glad you enjoyed your visit there but it does not appear to have enlightened you much.
And as Jim c is so fond of quoting Einstien I will follow suit; "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits ".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:30 AM

Judging by actions not words.

See what happens when a bunch of Arab Israelis congregate in the name of healthy democracy.

Or Ethiopean Jews for that matter....

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:38 AM

"However such protests do not always represent the views of the majority."
And majority views do not always indicate a decision reasonably taken - certainly while the establishments around the world control, and often own the means where information is passed on for us to take those decisions.
The fact is that whatever people might think on any subject, it is invariably a small minority who care enough or be in the position to express their views on them - this has always been the case.
It would be totally ridiculous to assume that those who do not demonstrate are happy with the way things are, yet this argument is often used by them in charge as a claim that this is the case.
Only 35,000 of us poured into Grosvenor Square in 1968 to protest what we watched nightly in Vietnam - was this an indication that the people of Britain supported the off-loading of napalm and Agent Orange onto the heads of the Vietnamese people that we viewed on our television screens night after night - don't think so really - and demonstrations such as these on a global scale eventually helped force an end to the war (should be remembered that General Westmorland proposed that Vietnam should be "nuked back into the Stone age", and there were those who were happy to go along with him.
Mass demonstrations are a pretty accurate indication that something is 'rotten in the State of Denmark'.
" In the years I spent there I never once heard anyone refer to Israel as "terrorist" state."
I never once heard actions such as those carried out by Israel down the years - mass murder of refugees, civilians, including women and children, use of chemical and anti-personnel weapons, deliberate targeting of hospitals, schools, old people's homes, mass eviction of people from territory their ancestors have occupied for millennia to make room for a people claiming to have been "bequeathed it by God", forcible settlement of nomads onto toxic rubbish dumps, using chemical sprays and high pressure hoses...... as anything but the actions of a terrorist State.
Probably the most bizarre suggestion ever made by anyone is to claim that acts of terrorism are only such when recognised by politicians (in "decent" countries which have been known to commit such acts themselves) - and then to invent a list of countries supporting these acts.
You couldn't make it up (though Keith has)
Jim Carroll   
Not

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:45 AM

"And as Jim c is so fond of quoting Einstien"
BTW
There are those here extremely fond of ignoring what Einstein had to say and continue to claim that to criticise Israel is 'Antisemitic' - bit of a contradiction, don'tcha think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 04:13 AM

"mass eviction of people from territory their ancestors have occupied for millennia"

Compile a list of those people Christmas and apply it to the area in question and you will find that the group that predominates is Jewish - you did after all introduce the timescale. However according to the criteria established by the UN In the period 1923 to 1948 any Arab who can prove that he/she, or any of his/her forefathers had "worked" in the Mandated Territory of Palestine for a period of at least eighteen MONTHS automatically qualified as having a "Right to Return" - the UN body and committee who set that little lot up however did not see fit to set any qualification for any "Right of Return" for any of the 800,000 Jews forcibly stripped of their possessions and deported from Arab countries where they had lived quite peacefully for centuries (If not millennia in some cases). Never once have I ever heard you championing their cause Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 04:25 AM

Canada has not supported Israel's war crimes, it has simply refused to denounce them

Canada does denounce all war crimes, but does not recognise Israel as having committed any.
Likewise all the other democracies.

Of the countries mentioned, the only one to give actual support is the United States
No.
All the liberal democracies treat Israel as an equal and support it with warm and friendly relations.

You lied about Ireland supporting Isreal - Ireland has spoken out against the settlements and helped to formulate the motion condemning Israel in the U.N.
No I did not.
On previous threads I quoted the government expressing support for Israel and I will find more if you like.
I acknowledge that many countries do have an issue with the settlements.
That is all.

no-one has supported the massacre of civilians in Gaza, no one openly supports Israel's expansionist policies, it flirting with apartheid, its ethnic cleansing of nomads, it's religion-based claims for the atrocities it is carrying out...

No decent democracy has denounced such things.
They do not recognise them.

Musket, as usual nothing but unsupported assertions.
What I said was bollocks was your claims.
Your claims really were wrong.
That is the reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 04:30 AM

Yeah.. We all supported Israeli bombing of civilians

zzzz

Good job we didn't really.. After all, if such wicked stances were coming from governments rather than Keith's over active imagination we'd all be buggered.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:17 AM

E but does not recognise Israel as having committed any.
Likewise all the other democracies"
Where have they supports#ed what Israel has recently done - particularly the massace of civilians - silence is not support
The "reality" is that no nation in the world has supported what Isreal has done - a few of the "decent" (seems to refer to nations on Israel's side) have stayed silent on the atrocities for various reasons, political and economic expediency being the main ones, but nobody has supported the actions of Israel other than the Yanks, with a record of its own human rights abuses as long as your arm.
You produced a list of so-called supporters of israel and were given a bundle of links to statements condemning their behaviour which you are appearing to indicate, do not exist.
The "warm and friendly relatons" you refer to are like tose of Britain and Saudi Arabia - attending a funeral to pay their respects to a despot while one of his victims is being administered 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Is that what your church describes as "decency?"
"On previous threads I quoted the government expressing support for Israel and I will find more if you like."
And you have been given statements by the Irish Government condemning Israel - antd you will find more.
Ireland helped formulate the U.N. document condemning Israel's settlement policy
Scandinavian countries have condemned Israel - some of your named "decent" countries.
Just like your "experts" and your "real historians" you are now inventing support from mythical "decent countries" ad attributing them with views they don't hold.
Even Cameron has condemned Isreal's behaviour for ***'* sake.
"can prove that he/she, or any of his/her forefathers had "worked" in the Mandated Territory"
Sounds like extremist rights-wing Zionism Terrytoon - the Arabs have too prove they have a right to their lands
Nice political ring to it Mandated territories, doncha think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:23 AM

"fond of ignoring what Einstein had to say and continue to claim that to criticise Israel is 'Antisemitic'"
.,.,
A bit disingenuous, Jim. You sound as if you think there is only one way of criticising Israel, the one which self-questioning Jews like Einstein & me adopt in our disappointment with the way it has turned out. But there are of course many other ways of criticising Israel -- including the one recognised by that UN committee all those years ago which consisted of disguising outright antisemitism as bona-fide criticism of Israel.

You know this. Don't pretend you don't.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:48 AM

Canada's government response to the residential school report-note Canada is in a pre-election phase.


Government response 

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:08 AM

particularly the massace of civilians

There was no such thing. One can guess at what motivates you to spread such lies. The blood of every single civilian death in Gaza in squarely on the hands of Hamas. WHY DID HAMAS START A WAR WITH ISRAEL? No one has yet answered that question which has been asked many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:13 AM

Where have they supports#ed what Israel has recently done - particularly the massace of civilians - silence is not support

Silence is the response when there is nothing to respond to Jim.

Decent democracies are not silent about war crimes, massacres and human rights abuses.
They denounce them whenever and wherever they happen.
That happens not to be Israel, hence the silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:26 AM

Human Rights Watch israel-palestine

But I do have the reservation that HRW sometimes spread their criticism wider than the instances warrant - tarring too many people, or aspects of a regime, with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:35 AM

"The enlargement of the European Union on 1st May 2004 has brought a historical shift for the
Union in political, geographic and economic terms. The EU and Israel are now closer together
than ever before and, as near neighbours, will reinforce their political and economic
interdependence. Enlargement offers the opportunity for the EU and Israel to develop an
increasingly close relationship, going beyond co-operation, to involve a significant measure of
economic integration and a deepening of political co-operation. The European Union and
Israel are determined to make use of this occasion to enhance their relations and to promote
stability, security and well-being. The approach is founded on partnership, joint ownership
and differentiation. It will contribute to the further development of our strategic partnership.
The European Neighbourhood Policy of the European Union sets ambitious objectives based
on commitments to shared values and effective implementation of the political, economic,
social and institutional actions agreed to in this Action Plan."

"The EU and Israel share the common values of democracy, respect for human rights and the
rule of law and basic freedoms. Both parties are committed to the struggle against all form of
anti-Semitism, racism and xenophobia. Historically and culturally, there exist great natural
affinity and common heritage. Thus, we strive to build bridges and networks.
Israel has a functioning market economy and a well developed public administration and
public services. This foundation makes Israel well placed to further develop its relationship
with the EU including in the framework of the ENP."
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/march/tradoc_127722.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:38 AM

Israel is a beacon of light, a source of democracy and an example to the world, Canadian Foreign Minister Rob Nicholson, on his first visit to Jerusalem, told President Reuven Rivlin on Wednesday (today).

He said he was delighted to be in Israel because he had been interested in the country since he was a kid and had always wanted to come.

Canada has taken a strong stance in support of the coalition and their is a continued presence of Canadian peace-keeping forces in the region, he said.

Canada has supported Israel in the past, does so in the present, and will continue to do so in the future, Nicholson assured Rivlin.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:53 AM

I have in my hand this piece of paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:57 AM

Use it to prevent your settee from turning brown.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 08:26 AM

"Canberra will revert to the voting pattern established by John Howard and Alexander Downer: less ambiguous, less apologetic, more straightforward in support of the only democracy in the Middle East.

Bishop has not issued any general voting instructions but she has made it clear she intends to restore the Howard voting pattern and to reverse the votes Rudd changed. She has also made it clear she expects to see every significant Middle East resolution. Nothing will be done by autopilot. Her view is that Australia's vote on each resolution will be decided on its merits but that she will not support any unbalanced, one-sided or unfair resolutions on Israel. As almost all UN resolutions on Israel fall into this category, this is an important statement of principle."

"It's important to understand the underlying dynamics. The UN, in its bureaucracy and voting patterns, is grotesquely biased against Israel. Every year 20 or more completely one-sided resolutions are passed against Israel, while typically nothing is said about North Korea or Iran or Saudi Arabia or any of the other paragons of human rights and democracy among UN members. Many European countries abstain on such resolutions, thinking it's more trouble than it's worth to oppose them outright. Typically, the US, Canada, Israel and a few Pacific countries oppose such resolutions. Under Howard, Australia did too. This was right in principle and also in our interests. It draws us closer to our best friends and makes some contribution, however small, to moving the UN in the direction of the real world.

The alleged damage to our standing by taking a principled position never really amounted to anything. In the years after Canberra became more explicit in its support of Israel we did not lose a single election at the UN, our trade with the Arab Middle East boomed and more Arab countries opened embassies here."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/unstinting-support-for-israel-back-in-place/story-e6frg76f-1226727165855
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/unstinting-support-for-israel-back-in-place/story-e6frg76f-1226727165855

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 08:59 AM

Palestinian jihadis, incited by Hamas and the Abbas regime, are committing acts of terror on the streets of Jerusalem every week. This holy war goes mostly unreported by the international media. Indeed, most Western newspapers are embracing the "Palestinian narrative," whereby Jews are seen as colonists of a Palestinian nation which was stolen off the "Palestinian people" by the British in 1917. The "two-state solution" is a Palestinian plan to turn Judea and Samaria into a terrorist state, from which to strike against Israel and destroy the only Jewish state in the world. Palestinians do not want a state called Palestine. They want a Jew-free Middle East ruled under sharia law.

British Palestine and the rise of Islamofascism

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 09:44 AM

You bet, Guest, and Jade Helm is the Obamafascist plan to invade Texas, declare martial law & confiscate all the guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 09:53 AM

Greg, are you sure IS are not planning any expansion in that direction?

If you have some special inside knowledge, please share it with us.
If not, why ridicule something that is no more unlikely than what they have already done?

Your posts are long on mockery but short on substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 10:18 AM

If you have some special inside knowledge, please share it with us.

Well, Keith, whilst I am living, I'm not eminent, I dont write for the tabloid press and all of the living, non-eminent people on the face of the globe don't agree with me, so what would be the point?

Your posts are long on balderdash but short on factual information.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 10:34 AM

So because The UN isn't as pro Israel as the likes of Keith would prefer, he gives us quotes of other peoples' opinions about it. "Grotesquely biased against Israel" is an opinion, an opinion not shared by the many people who use their skills, knowledge and diplomatic experience to make up the executive of the UN, nor the ambassadors speaking for their governments.

You find opinions whilst some of us find hard facts.

Some say good old Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 10:34 AM

Some say fuck him

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 12:05 PM

GUEST - 03 Jun 15 - 08:59 AM

"Indeed, most Western newspapers are embracing the "Palestinian narrative," whereby Jews are seen as colonists of a Palestinian nation which was stolen off the "Palestinian people" by the British in 1917."

Well one shouldn't give too much credence on what you hear and see reported by "western MSM" - they have the same disregard for historical fact as the Musktwats, Steve Shaw, Jim Carroll, DtG, Raggytash, etc, etc.

As for yourself GUEST - ever heard of any of the following:

The League of Nations
Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution - 25th April 1920
The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine - 24th July 1922
The Transjordan Memorandum - 29th September 1923
The Treaty of Lausanne

League of Nations Mandate For Palestine

Apart from collectively describing various districts, each with their own names as a geographical area there has never been anywhere called Palestine until the League of Nations decided to describe it such formally when it created the Mandate - NOTE that GUEST - The League of nations created the Mandated Territory of Palestine - the "Big, Bad, British" STOLE IT from nobody they were dumped with the problem for a finite period by the League of Nations and relinquished responsibility for it exactly to the date originally given.

The mandate originally included what is now known as Jordan (77% of the entire mandated territory) but that was broken away and handed over as a semi-autonomous state reserved solely for use and settlement by the Arabs of Palestine in 1923. The reason for doing this was because of anti-Jewish riots deliberately engineered and fomented by Yasser Arafat's Uncle based on blatant lies in 1920 and 1921 made it obvious to the British that Jew and Arab were not going to peacefully coexist in the mandated territory as originally envisaged. The 23% "Rump" of what was left could be settled by anyone who could afford the price of the land and who was willing to work to make it productive.

The term "Palestinians", the notion that there ever was such a country or nation as "Palestine", were latter-day inventions of Yasser Arafat - there is no such race as "Palestinian", if there were based on historical fact it would include the Jews - IIRC when the Arabs drove the Jews out of Hebron during the 1929 anti-Jewish riots the Jewish population of that town had been living there continuously for over 800 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 12:15 PM

Musket,
You find opinions whilst some of us find hard facts.

You have not posted a single fact.
Prove me wrong and quote one.

You have posted some assertions, that I showed to be wrong.
By posting hard facts.

I have shown that EU, Canada and Australia all support Israel which they would not do if it really was a "rogue" or "terrorist" state, or if it was guilty of war crimes, massacres or human rights abuses.

That is all just propaganda made up by Israel's enemies and all you gullible dupes lap it up.

Greg,
Your posts are long on balderdash but short on factual information.
You have not posted a single fact.
Prove me wrong and quote one.

I have posted a lot of factual information.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 12:43 PM

""The (RC);Archbishop of Ottawa Terrence Prendergast says the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) is "asking for too much" by demanding the Pope apologize to residential school survivors in Canada.-The TRC on Tuesday called for the Pope to apologize within one year.""




Ottawa RC Archbishops response to report recommendations 

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 01:38 PM

they have the same disregard for historical fact as the Musktwats, Steve Shaw, Jim Carroll, DtG, Raggytash, etc, etc.

Show me anywhere I have disregarded historical facts and I will accept the criticism. Otherwise I suggest you get your facts straight. Or just fuck off. Either will do.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 02:12 PM

I have posted a lot of factual information.

Where, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 02:20 PM

I wonder if Keith A of Hertford and Teribus are aliases for pro Israeli activists? They both spout off views that cannot be collaborated and when other members question them, they decide the whole Western media and United Nations are biased.

I think Mudcat deserves better than to be infiltrated by such rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:01 PM

You people could challenge things that we actually say, as DtG just did.
Instead you just attack us for things we have not said.
Or just personal attack.
I expect the thread will now close, letting you all off the hook.

If it is still here in the morning I will repeat some of the facts I have posted as requested by Greg.

Will Greg or Musket produce any facts of theirs as requested by me?
No.
There are none.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 06:29 PM

"They both spout off views that cannot be collaborated ....???

Shouldn't that be "corroborated" R Sole? No idea how ones personal views could be collaborated - wouldn't be personal then would it?

But please challenge anything I have stated in this thread and it most certainly can be corroborated - most of the detail is simple recorded fact.

Anything on the First World War Gnome.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:01 PM

Anything on the First World War Gnome.

Naah, ya wants to ask Keith - he's the expert with every living, eminent, tabloid-writing historian to back him up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 07:39 PM

I wonder if Keith A of Hertford and Teribus are aliases for pro Israeli activists?

I think Mudcat deserves better than to be infiltrated by such rubbish.

They come crawling out from beneath their rocks when the topic of Israel is discussed.....Pavlovian response in action.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 02:54 AM

Anything on the First World War Gnome.

So, no examples then Teribus? As I said before, show me where I have disregarded any facts. I have gone to great lengths to state that I do not know enough of that history to argue for or against any of the statements in question. Your accusation is a lie for all to see and what it has to do with this thread I have no idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 03:09 AM

"I have gone to great lengths to state that I do not know enough of that history to argue for or against any of the statements in question."

Yet for some reason little Gnome on those WWI threads you still persisted in arguing instead of educating yourself on the subject being discussed, after having been given the information and numerous sources where that information could be verified - mysteriously your views and opinions based on the complete absence of knowledge were to be viewed as unassailable and correct and every one else's including people who had studied and researched the period for years were all mistaken - or put another way you completely ignored historical fact, logic and reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 03:20 AM

Yet for some reason little Gnome on those WWI threads you still persisted in arguing instead of educating yourself on the subject being discussed, after having been given the information and numerous sources where that information could be verified - mysteriously your views and opinions based on the complete absence of knowledge were to be viewed as unassailable and correct and every one else's including people who had studied and researched the period for years were all mistaken - or put another way you completely ignored historical fact, logic and reasoning.

I did no such thing. For the third time of asking, examples please. Put up or shut up. Remember, when this thread is closed, it was you who brought me into this discussion on a subject that has nothing to do with the topic in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 04:05 AM

Cultural genocide?

If the culture in question is the sort that grows behind the oven, then Keith &Terribulus are centre stage. But to see their unsubstantiated waffle in a thread referring to culture and further, the obliteration of culture....

Well it sort of fits in a weird way.

The Negroponte principle only applies to US politicians funded by pro Israeli lobbies, not insignificant fools on Mudcat.

Let's all count the UN resolutions condemning Israel. Having just checked, even the less than sound Wikipedia knows about them! Mind you, it only knows up to 2013, not any since the Israeli army aggression more recently. Keith can tell you all about that, even the "legitimate" bombing of schools and hospitals.

Makes your skin crawl at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 04:05 AM

"or put another way you completely ignored historical fact, logic and reasoning."
Exactly so Teribus, that is how they approach every issue under discussion.

That is what comes of being a slave to a political ideology.....they cannot afford to reason.....or educate themselves, one brick out of the wall and the whole tottering edifice collapses in a cloud of dust, so they are forced into a siege mentality of denial, or vicious abuse.

Their whole lives are centred around a pseudo left wing stance based on myth and how they would like the world to be.........how do they manage that trick, given the mass of information which is now available?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 04:56 AM

Let's all count the UN resolutions condemning Israel.

You mean UNHRC reolutions. There are hundreds of such resolutions.
None about North Korea or Syria or any real rogue, terrorist state.
Decent, proper democracies do not vote for them.
Just human rights champions like Iran, Saudi, Pakistan,.....

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 05:13 AM

Greg,
I have posted a lot of factual information.
Where, Keith?

I posted this extract from an amnesty report,
"As well as the unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire, or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatients' clinic within the grounds of Gaza City's main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict and accused of collaboration died in custody."

When Musket posted,
Err. Keith.. The UK is one of many EU countries supporting UN censure of Israel. The votes are usually vetoed by The USA.

I provided hard factual evidence that it was not true, in the form of a list of the resolutions with national voting details.

I referred to the Gen. Assembly UN debate on September 23, 2014, under Agenda Item 7 which all the EU states walked out on with Israel.
Musket said that fact was a "fantasy"!

To show how EU supports Israel I linked to EU documents,
" Both (EU and Israel)share the same values of democracy, a respect for freedom and rule of law and are committed to an open international economic system based on market principles. Israeli political, industrial, commercial and scientific leaders maintain close links to Europe. Over five decades of trade, cultural exchanges, political cooperation and a developed system of agreements have cemented these relations."

I provided quotes of Canada's Foreign Minister who yesterday spoke of Canada's continuing support for Israel.

"Israel is a beacon of light, a source of democracy and an example to the world, Canadian Foreign Minister Rob Nicholson, on his first visit to Jerusalem, told President Reuven Rivlin "

"Canada has supported Israel in the past, does so in the present, and will continue to do so in the future, Nicholson assured Rivlin."

I showed that Australia is increasing its support for Israel in UN.
Hard facts.

Your turn.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,dáithí
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 05:46 AM

Thanks Teribus - I am aware of all the other examples of British imperialism that you mention; in response to the original poster's question, which was about examples of countries that had attempted cultural genocide I simply highlighted one example which was among the worse (in my view)in this region but am well aware of the historical situation across the British isles generally.

Keith suggested that because Ireland does in fact still have a culture (music, art, literature, language) my point is invalid. However, the occupiers of Ireland did pass laws banning the things I mentioned which is surely an indisputable example of attempted cultural genocide. The question posed was about countries that had attemted cultural genocide, not whether they had succeeded - and the fact remains that this was attempted in Ireland over many centuries and whilst not entirely succesful, nonetheless left a deep scar on the culture of the people there.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 05:49 AM

So, ake, seeing as Teribus has not yet done so, are you going to provide evidence of where I "ignored historical fact, logic and reasoning"? No? Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 06:28 AM

Ah little gnome does it piss you off when people accuse you of all sorts of things then refuse to substantiate their claims? Well join the club the likes Shaw, Musktwat and Jim Carroll do it all the time to the likes of Keith, Akenaton and myself.

As the self appointed destroyers of discussion on this forum they have been responsible for lost threads where many of the examples have been deleted or lost.

One that I do recall had something to do with whether or not one of the 1930 - 1969 "Revisionists" work should be regarded as being representative of the history of the period backed up by fact. The "historian" in question was the ex-Tory Cabinet Minister Alan Clark and his book was entitled "Donkeys" a work that even Clark's own tutor at Oxford rubbished. A rather long and impressive list of historians who were/are acknowledged experts on the period also gave the work scathing peer reviews along with their reasons - now rather than discuss that, you ignored what they were saying entirely then conducted a full scale "state ball" dancing on the head of a pin about adjectives used to disparage the work and whether or not someone got them the right way round.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 06:36 AM

So dáithí, where is cultural genocide happening now and what would you do about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 06:45 AM

One that I do recall had something to do with...

So, still no substance then? Just faulty recollections? I thought as much. And, yes, it does "piss me off when people accuse me of all sorts of things then refuse to substantiate their claims" but I would rather not join your club thank you. For the fourth time, are you going to provide any evidence for your accusation?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 06:54 AM

My typo can be put down to an unfortunate auto correct. it would be stretching imagination somewhat for Teribus to put his pompous appalling bollocks down to his computer. I think his brain helped his jaded logic and prejudice.

Why do those with a bigoted outlook defend themselves by accusing others of being wedded to a philosophy? Most interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 07:11 AM

What "bigoted" outlook R Sole? I ask by the way DtG knowing full well I will not get any answer - GUEST R Sole = One of the Musktwats - they develop different "GUEST" persona when it suits and the questions asked in the thread have become too difficult for them to face.

Also for that matter R Sole what unsubstantiated claims have I made related to Israel and her Arab neighbours? Or are you honestly trying to tell us all that there were:

- No anti-jewish riots in 1920 or 1921?
- No partitioning of the original mandated territory in 1923?
- No anti-jewish riots in 1929?

Do you honestly deny the facts that there are:

- No officially recognised borders for the State of Israel.
- No maps showing what the Palestinian Authority see as being the two states of Israel and Palestine that they have "conned" the world into believing that they are "fighting" for.

Again DtG I will get no response to any of those points - perhaps you too would like to deny the points made? Or will you just ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 07:15 AM

Guest R.Sole,
I wonder if Keith A of Hertford and Teribus are aliases for pro Israeli activists? They both spout off views that cannot be collaborated

I am so sorry you missed or failed to understand the corroboration that was in fact provided R.Sole.

Please identify any view we expressed and I will guide you to the corroboration.

Perhaps you are confusing our posts with Musket's.
He makes unsupported and demonstrably false assertions all the time.
You two share a very similar style of posting.

And R.Sole, we are not any kind of activists.
We just bring a little balance, truth and objectivity to the debate.
How you people hate that!
You have no answers though.
Just abuse and baseless assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:04 AM

Again DtG I will get no response to any of those points - perhaps you too would like to deny the points made? Or will you just ignore them.

Of course I will ignore them. They have nothing to do with me and I have no interest in the argument. The only reason I got involved was to see if you would substantiate the unwarranted accusation involving me. Which you still have not done, preferring instead to obfuscate the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:17 AM

Oh, and yes, I am quite sure that you can substantiate the claims you have made related to "Israel and her Arab neighbours" but, not having a horse in that race, I am not interested. I do however have a personal interest in the claim you have made about me so, hopefully for the final time, are you going to put up or shut up?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:28 AM

"I am not interested."

If you're not interested in the subject matter of the thread why are you posting in it? (as if we don't know)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

Already have put up Gnome, you have just chosen to ignore it.

I am sure that Keith A and others can verify the exchanges I referred to related to Alan Clark's book and the considered opinions of those historians who critiqued the work.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:35 AM

What "unsubstantiated waffle" Musktwat?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:47 AM

If you're not interested in the subject matter of the thread why are you posting in it?

Because I was mentioned by Teribus. As if you didn't know...

Already have put up Gnome, you have just chosen to ignore it.

I am sure that Keith A and others can verify the exchanges

You have not put up anything at all by way of proof. Keith can verify that I never disputed any of his points but why should he? It is up to you to substantiate the allegation or stop making it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 09:10 AM

Dave, I can verify that you ridiculed me for stating and corroborating my views on WWI.
Also that you mocked me for claiming a consensus among historians in support of those views even though I produced linked quotes from historians referring to that consensus.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 09:21 AM

"Brown-n-Crinkly" has gone awfully quiet hasn't he?

Perhaps he is engaged in his enthralling hobby of reading through other people's posts - he does seem to do a lot of that, since he suddenly appeared a few days ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM

Dave, I can verify that you ridiculed me for stating and corroborating my views on WWI.

Nope. Just ridiculed you for being so pompous.

Also that you mocked me for claiming a consensus among historians in support of those views even though I produced linked quotes from historians referring to that consensus.

Yep. You cannot say that all historians support your views, because you have not read the works of all historians. It is simply a logical fallacy but you cannot see it.

But you are just evading the issue and attempting to change the subject again. Did I ever ""ignore historical fact, logic and reasoning"? If so, where and when? It is no less than you demand.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 09:57 AM

Heh heh. Someone else clocks the bullshit, lies, propaganda and trolling behaviour of Terribulus and Keith A Hole of Hertford and therefore Keith assumes he or she is "similar in style" to Musket. Considering Musket is three styles anyway, I would have thought of all the logged in styles, our would fe the most difficult to pin down, (on purpose.)

No Keith. It merely means lots of people don't fall for your unfortunate bias.

I would have to check back, but I think R Sole once disagreed with something I said.

Some say good old Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 09:58 AM

Some say fuck him

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 10:22 AM

How brilliantly witty!
Even for such a far travelled and well educated person.

I am in awe   :oo

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 10:24 AM

"Someone else clocks the bullshit, lies, propaganda and trolling behaviour of Terribulus and Keith A Hole of Hertford "

Well no Musktwat they don't, as when asked to put up any sort of counter argument as part of the discussion, or when any point made by you is challenged and clearly demonstrated to be wrong you just retire behind bluster, insult and personal attack - the behaviour normally associated with a six year old in a school playground when he isn't getting his own way all the time.

So Musktwat he's your chance:

What bullshit?
What lies?
What propaganda?
What trolling behaviour?

Bets on DtG - bet I get no response at all - you lot are as predictable as the tide.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 10:51 AM

Bets on DtG - bet I get no response at all

I think it about as likely as you finding any evidence of me "ignoring historical fact, logic and reasoning". I won't hold my breath for that one either :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 10:53 AM

Musket,
strangely,all four of you write in the same style.

Dave,
Yep. You cannot say that all historians support your views, because you have not read the works of all historians.

Nope.
Not only could I not find a single dissenting voice, none of you people could either in over a year of searching.
Also, I showed that the historians themselves referred to the consensus.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 11:35 AM

The following was also a dead give-away Keith:

GUEST,R Sole - 04 Jun 15 - 06:54 AM

"My typo can be put down to an unfortunate auto correct."

Now who else has complained about the same feature when posting using a mobile device?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 01:33 PM

Is this a history discussion? Ah well, but remember it was Teribus that first mentioned me and then asked you to verify what he said. Which you didn't...

Anyway. Can you say that every single historian, even by your exacting standards, agree with your points? No, you cannot, because you will never read all their works. It is all I ever said.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 01:46 PM

The history you chose to ignore was that works written post Alan Clark's "Donkeys" were written with much better information from wider sources and by historians who were acknowledged specialists in the period (Something that Clark most certainly wasn't). Therefore to cling to discredited conclusions arrived at by Clark and advance them in any discussion on the subject while studiously ignoring the far better done by others lacks both logical and reason.

Go dance on the head of your pin DtG it is about all that you are good for.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 01:54 PM

Dear God, PLEASE not another WWI discussion - its deja vu all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 02:00 PM

Educated English is a style? Conversational English is a style?

Whatever the form, the content counts. Yeah, I'm Dave The Gnome, Steve Shaw and Harry Arsehole too. Not to mention The UN, a bunch of objective historians and Tony Robinson.

Of course, by inferring you aren't actually making stupid claims are you? Or at least by your level of intelligence. If you are saying anybody weighing you up must be me in disguise, you must live a wonderful life where people only start laughing once you get out of earshot.

Still, claiming I am people is different to claiming I have never been to a folk club in Hertford I suppose. I am or I am not whatever is convenient for you to think. Any idea how idiotic you are in your assertions? Your paranoia is your own brain, not the brain of others. If you can't handle debate, either get out more and get a more balanced view of life or accept the world isn't quite what The Daily M*il tells you it is. Listening to Terribulus seems to exacerbate the issue too..

Perhaps some of us on Mudcat are inadvertently doing you a favour Keith. Although that isn't the aim. The aim is challenging the shocking disgraceful lies you and your mate Terribulus find and parrot out. I suggest you start a thread for people who watch Sky News. They tend to be the sort who might listen and nod in agreement.

Fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 02:43 PM

Ignoring Teribus's post about the British mandate doesn't do much for some people's debating credentials.

From the look of this some of it was correct and relevant British Mandate for Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 02:47 PM

The history you chose to ignore was that works written post Alan Clark's "Donkeys" were written with much better information from wider sources

I never did such a thing, which is why you will never show where. In fact I acknowledged the same fact many times, ask your mate. Feel free to carry on with the same lies though. It says lots more about you than it does me!

Why start to pick a fight with someone who was not even in this discussion anyway? Still stinging from sitting in the Christian chair? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 04:02 PM

Jim,
Even that nice Mr Cameron has condemned them

"As PM, putting yourself in the shoes of the Israeli people, who want peace but have to put up with these indiscriminate attacks - that reinforces to me the importance of standing by Israel and Israel's right to defend itself.

"I feel very strongly that this equivalence that sometimes people try to draw when these attacks take place is so completely wrong and unfair."

"Because Israel is trying defend against indiscriminate attacks, while trying to stop the attackers – and there's such a difference between that and the nature of the indiscriminate attacks that Israel receives. I feel that very clearly. I've seen it very clearly as Prime Minister and I think it's important to speak out about it.

"Obviously we regret the loss of life wherever it takes place, but I do think there's an important difference – as Prime Minister Netanyahu put it: Israel uses its weapons to defend its people and Hamas uses its people to defend its weapons."

"In an interview with The Atlantic, he said Israel was at risk from an "insidious, creeping attempt" to undermine it as a state."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/david-cameron-says-israel-was-right-to-defend-itself-over-gaza-att

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 04:05 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/david-cameron-says-israel-was-right-to-defend-itself-over-gaza-attacks-last-year-10210203.html

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 06:12 PM

For a review that will piss off everybody see Ethnic pest zones.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 07:11 PM

Dunno. Reading bullshit from a PE teacher seems to be the norm here. Why would anything you read piss you off?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 07:38 PM

Because Musktwat the three have your view and that is it - signed , sealed and delivered.

Only problem is for you collection of twats - it isn't.

And the likes of myself, Keith A, Akenaton and quite a few others are here to challenge you and keep you honest, and time after time and time time after time you keep ducking. Carry on you are only proving what complete and utter wankers you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:28 PM

You regressing back to third form, T-Bird? Sure reads like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 09:27 PM

Hell freezes over, pigs fly, now this: United Nations Secretary-General condemns rocket firing from Gaza into Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 06:21 AM

"Can you say that every single historian, even by your exacting standards, agree with your points?"

No, and can you show me anybody apart from you lot who has ever made that claim? I believe the phrase originally used was that there was a "consenus" among historians writing about the First World War in recent times. Now to my understanding of that it qualifies what group of historians we are talking about - (Not every single historian - your invention) - the group we are referring to are/were all historians whose area of specialisation IS the First World War, whereas the historians your "camp" dragged up were not. Historians writing post 1970 on the "Great War" had far, far more detailed information than any who wrote on the subject previously - yet all that has to be discounted and we are all expected to sing from the same hymn sheet based on "Made Up Shit" swallowed "Hook-Line-and-Sinker" by you, the Musktwats, Steve Shaw, Jim Carroll and Raggytash. Got news for you Gnome - it ain't going to happen. You lot keep coming out with your myths, misrepresentations, half-truths and lies and you will be pulled up on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 06:57 AM

Musket,
Err. Keith.. The UK is one of many EU countries supporting UN censure of Israel.

Wrong.
made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 07:02 AM

Yep - Got me there, Teribus. I accept that the 'all historians' is purely from memory. Keith may or may not have said it and I am not going to trawl through all that crap.

You lot keep coming out with your myths, misrepresentations, half-truths and lies and you will be pulled up on them.

Pretty much like the "myths, misrepresentations, half-truths and lies" that you are coming out with about me and I am pulling you up on by any chance? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 07:41 AM

Hardly Gnome - your card is well and truly marked

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 08:01 AM

By whom? You? Hehehe. Thanks for the laugh, anyway, back to the point. I take it you have not found any evidence of your accusations yet or you would have provided links. I don't even expect you to withdraw now. It is enough that everyone has seen that you are happy to lie about other people in a feeble endeavour to prove yourself. To coin a phrase from your mate, you lose :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 08:11 AM

Keith has made the "all historians" claim multiple times in multiple threads.

Fact.

At times, he has modified that to "all living historians.

Fact.

vide the "Christmas Truce", "Armistace Day" and "Irish Famine" threads, among many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM

No, fair's fair, Greg. I cannot provide links to Keith saying "all historians", to prove that is indeed what he said. I am therefore happy to concede that my memory could be at fault and I withdraw the accusation. Teribus cannot provide any links to me "ignoring historical fact, logic and reasoning" but still insists that I do so. It is there for all to see so I cannot understand why he does not withdraw it. I am no psychologist so will not speculate why he persists but I am happy to let let him continue digging if he wants :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 08:40 AM

Indian Act facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 08:58 AM

It was a very long discussion and short hand was required.
I always acknowledged that the historian and Tory grandee Niall Ferguson believed Britain should have stayed out of the war.
It hardly needs saying that most historians have written nothing about that period at all, so are not included in the statement, "all historians."
I also made clear that I only included professional historians whose work could be found in libraries and bookshops, and was recognised by other historians.
I did say "all historians" but it was always clear what I meant by that.
It was not necessary to spell it out every time, every day for over a year.

I also requested at least 2 or three times a week for a year and a half that someone find such a historian with differing views.
Still none.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 09:10 AM

Not disputing any of that, Keith, but always worth pointing out that by "All Historians" you actually meant all historians that have had work published, have done research in the last 30 years, you consider to be eminent, that have no political axe to grind, that can be found in book shops, excluding on-line bookshops and are recognised as historians only by the group as just detailed. Which is what I meant by your exacting standards. Glad to see you say that you did say all historians though. Means my memory is not at fault after all. Maybe you can now help Teribus find where I disregarded any facts or disputed any of your three statements?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 09:30 AM

s find where I disregarded any facts or disputed any of your three statements?

You openly supported those who did, even when they were actually caught making fake quotes, while ridiculing me for reading and believing the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 09:39 AM

I thought this was you Dave.
The threads cut off before you came out.
It does suggest you disagreed with my points.



Subject: RE: WWI, was No-Man's Land
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 14 - 05:11 PM

Consensus

noun, plural consensuses.
1. majority of opinion:
The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.
2. general agreement or concord; harmony.

No mention of anyone studying anything. Just a majority opinion. Like the majority opinion that while most historians may agree on some points; Keith still talks through his arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 09:49 AM

Not me Keith. Even when logged out I used the consistent Guest name of Dave the Gnome. And I never went in anywhere to come out of...

while ridiculing me for reading and believing the historians.

I have already said I ridiculed you for coming across as pompous and arrogant. Still do. Nothing else.

So, maybe you can now help Teribus find where I disregarded any facts or disputed any of your three statements?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 10:37 AM

I think you misremember Dave.
You actually told me in a thread that it was you, posting as anon Guest, who introduced Neil Faulkner.

Are you now saying that you never posted to WW1 threads before Christmas?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 10:46 AM

I may well misremember, Keith, just as others do. I cannot recall that conversation but that does not mean it did not happen. Maybe your memory is better than mine but without the benefit of evidence we will never know. To be honest, even if it was so, you are clutching at straws bringing up posts by un-named guests who may or may not be me which do not disregard any facts anyway. Surely you can recall the fact that I said, often, that I do not dispute your three statements? Or is your memory selective on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 10:55 AM

The WW1 threads cut off on Xmas Eve and no Daves are among the contributors, so no point in you asking for examples of anything from you now.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 11:02 AM

I remember that you never discussed history on those history threads.
You said that you only went on them to mock and ridicule me, and that I should live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 11:03 AM

So, no examples of how I disregarded any facts then? What a surprise. Are you not even willing to confirm that you remember me stating specifically that I did not dispute your statements? My single contention in any of those threads was that you could not say that all historians agreed with you. You have pointed out that by all historians you meant only those who satisfy your exacting criteria, who's work you have actually read, agreed with you. I call that a win-win. You win with your definition of all historians. I win with my definition of all historians. Good news all round I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 11:07 AM

I have already said I ridiculed you for coming across as pompous and arrogant. Still do. Nothing else.

Well, there actually IS something else Dave: ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 11:09 AM

Dave, when you announced your real identity, I asked you, "Why all the subterfuge?"
You replied that there was no subterfuge, and that the mods were aware of what you were doing.

Coming back to you now?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 11:21 AM

No - Sorry. To be honest such things are so trivial that there is no reason I would have given it a second thought let alone remember it months later. If it was around Christmas time, it was when my Dad started to go downhill so petty little squabbles would have been even less significant than before.

You say you remember these things yet cannot remember that I said I did not dispute your statements? Maybe you consider that as insignificant as I consider your points. Fair enough. Luckily I find it marvellous that there is such a broad spectrum of thought processes :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 01:11 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:56 AM

"why is it wrong for me to believe them (historians) and put their views here."

Equally why is wrong for me not to believe them and put my views here? The opinions of historians are still opinions, not facts. Opinions can and always will be disputed.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 02:51 PM

The point being? Still no disputed facts. As I said, opinions are to be disputed. Facts are not and I have not disregarded any. Really scraping the barrel now. Why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 04:26 PM

"You say you remember these things yet cannot remember that I said I did not dispute your statements?"

"Equally why is wrong for me not to believe them and put my views here? "

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 05:23 PM

Why, certainly, I'll have your whelk. How do we do it? Volume!

See, I can make less sense than you. What on earth are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 06:41 PM

I said that The UN contains EU countries and that there are over 45 UN resolutions condemning Israel.

Keith said I am making it up

Some say good old Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 06:42 PM

Some say fuck him

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 07:09 PM

57 Muslim majority voting entities in the UN.....doh!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 07:15 PM

Don't forget this is the same UN that aids and abets attacks against Israel by terrorists in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 04:35 AM

Musket,
I said that The UN contains EU countries and that there are over 45 UN resolutions condemning Israel.

They are UNHRC resolutions and EU countries do not support them.
Only resolutions about settlements, not about human rights abuses, war crimes or massacres because that is all made up propaganda.

Dave, you asked for proof that you disputed my views, which are just the findings of the historians.
I showed you stating that you do not believe the historians.
Like Musket, you think you know more more about history than they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 04:40 AM

Unlike The UK and Iran, all the rest have totally secular governments.

Two can play at that game. My statement above is naive but technically true. A bit like your counting votes based on the majority religion of the inhabitants.

Means fuck all either way.

The UN is The UN. Creaky but holding together and every country with a vote gets to vote. If The UN censures a country for attacking beyond its borders, segregating its population on cultural grounds and denying decent water supply to its neighbours, then noting its actions is what UN does.

Impotently until US politicians stop being bank rolled by Israeli interests, but The USA still thinks it has a world veto rather than a moral deficit.

Israel needs to be made safe. Guaranteeing that safety should be an international effort, not relying on the militaristic fools running the country and winding up its neighbours whilst playing the holocaust card. It is rather repugnant. Their "I thought he was going to hit me so I hit him back first" excuse merely leads to the most awful repression of the people of Palestine. Any wonder they hit back? Been there? I fucking well have. Many times and with humanitarian NGOs sorting out the problems Israel and The USA perpetuate.

My good friend Musket has been to Israel many times and notes how opinions are not so clear cut either. Repression using religion as an excuse. Where do we hear that I wonder?

A bit of a dog's dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 04:52 AM

My case was that proper democratic governments know that all that stuff about war crimes and massacres is false propaganda from Isreal's enemies.
You gullible lefty dupes lap it all up, but informed governments know better.

The fact that some of the nastiest regimes on Earth can unite to get resolutions though UNHRC does not challenge my case at all.
I absolutely acknowledge that it happens all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 05:03 AM

"The Holocaust card" unbelievable !

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 05:45 AM

The whole statement shows complete ignorance of the situation in the Middle East.

fools running the country and winding up its neighbours whilst playing the holocaust card.

As you say, unbelievable!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 06:19 AM

Dave, you asked for proof that you disputed my views

Absolute perfect example of straw man, Keith. I asked for no such thing. I asked for examples of how I disregarded any facts, not how I disputed your views. On top of which the post you pasted states quite clearly that I was disagreeing with opinions, not facts. As you well know I have never disputed your three infamous statements but you seem to be ignoring that.

Still, at least you tried but there is still no substance to Teribus's accusations. No cigar this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 06:59 AM

Not unbelievable at all, totally in keeping with the usual bile emanating from this hatemonger.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 07:53 AM

Dave,
I asked for examples of how I disregarded any facts, not how I disputed your views.

"find where I disregarded any facts or disputed any of your three statements?"

" find where I disregarded any facts or disputed any of your three statements?"

(That one was repeated twice, 9.10 and 9.49 AM 5th June)

"I said, often, that I do not dispute your three statements?"

"Are you not even willing to confirm that you remember me stating specifically that I did not dispute your statements?"

"yet cannot remember that I said I did not dispute your statements?"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 08:14 AM

No idea what you are on about, Keith. I have not disputed your statements. The post you pasted does not. Like I have often said, we seem to speak a different language.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 10:38 AM

informed governments know better.

Only living, eminent governments that write for the tabloid press and that are available in bookshops, I presume.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 11:01 AM

The good news is that with nothing to lose, Obama has started questioning the tactics of Israel. About time too.

There is a huge difference between Israel and Judaism. Those who mix the two play straight in to the hands of the hawks running Israel and its military objectives. When Jack Straw, as Foreign Secretary accused Israel of "playing the holocaust card" the reaction was similar to the reaction Mudcat members get for pointing out the same.

A very poor situation, and to read so much bias against the many countries making up The Middle East, and even in the disgusting hate filled words of some on here, (Muslim countries!) it really shows how shallow people can get.

I am back on Mudcat after forgetting it existed for a couple of years, but saddened to see the same tabloid inspired sensationalist comments. Some people, especially Teribus, Keith A of Hertford and Akenaton even assuming I am one of the those they shout at!

Their lives must be so shallow and unfulfilling. Has it ever occurred to any of them that it may be more than their usual detractors who question their input?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 11:54 AM

Meanwhile, back at the OP...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDU0yVhx18A

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 11:59 AM

Ditto.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 12:09 PM

Dave,
I have not disputed your statements. The post you pasted does not.

The post I pasted does.
My views are those of the historians.
That is where I got them.
If you disbelieve the historians, as your post stated you do, then obviously you reject my views too.

Guest R Sole, why did you change your name when you returned to Mudcat?
Please tell us, R Sole, what your old name was so that we can compare your past and present as you say you have done to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,gnu on Google
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 12:10 PM

Ditto ditto... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-votes-no-as-un-native-rights-declaration-passes-1.632160

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,>;-)
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 12:24 PM

Oooohhhh... fuck it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 01:14 PM

""The Holocaust card" unbelievable !"
HOLOCAUST CARD
Only the readiness of some people to use it - sickening
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 01:31 PM

If you disbelieve the historians, as your post stated you do, then obviously you reject my views too....

Keith, are you completely incapable of understanding English or are you being purposely stupid?

My post says nothing like I disbelieve anyone. Read it again. I said "Equally why is wrong for me not to believe them and put my views here?"

That is a question. It is obviously a question because it has a question mark at the end. What is the matter with you? You take things completely out of context and try to work it to your own agenda and then wonder why people ridicule you.

Clutching at straws again.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 02:17 PM

"My views are those of the historians."
Don't forget the "real" bit and the ones that sold their books in "real" bookshops
"but informed governments know better."
Seems like your list has recucd to Canada, with its own record of treatment of minorities.
Even Obama has warned a withdrawal of support
ETHNC CLEANSING from "Antisemitic" Haaratz
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 02:35 PM

Dave, it is a statement that you disbelieve the historians, and a question why it is wrong.

I stated that I did believe the historians and asked why it was wrong for me to do so and to post them.
I said,
"why is it wrong for me to believe them (historians) and put their views here."

You replied,
"Equally why is wrong for me not to believe them and put my views here? The opinions of historians are still opinions, not facts. Opinions can and always will be disputed."

It is clear that you reject the "opinions" of the historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 03:14 PM

I never reject opinions, in quotes or not. I merely question them. Stop grasping at straws. The whole point is I have never disregarded any facts. Try as you may you will not disprove that because it never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 03:35 PM

Not the historians that are a problem Keith - just the crassly dishonest way you used them - made you a standing joke - learn to live with it and defend Israel's terrorism - far more entertaining.
"You sound as if you think there is only one way of criticising Israel"
Disingenuous yourself Mike - the way to approach criticising anything is to examine what you feel needs criticism, which is what I have always tried to do - only to be met by squeals o "antisemitism" from you and others (an antisemitic act in itself.
So far, you claims of criticising Israel have been little more than the felling of trees.
Sorry - reprehensible but small potatoes to the massacres and acts of ethnic cleansing that are taking place.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 05:05 PM

"The Holocaust card" unbelievable !

Yup -the only thing worse is playing "The Antisemite Card" when discussing the actions and policies of the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 07:20 PM

"when discussing the actions and policies of the Israeli government."

Ha, ha good one!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 09:04 PM

Just opinions Gnome? How about far better informed and far better researched opinions by people who have made a life's work out of studying and researching that period of history? Still reckon your opinion (remembering of course that you yourself have admitted that you know nothing about it) should be considered compared to theirs? Do you ignore all the facts that they bring to the argument upon which they have based their conclusions? If that is not ignoring fact then nothing is - it also by the way flies in the face of logic and reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 10:24 PM

from "Antisemitic" Haaratz

Antisemitic....that's a matter of opinion.
Extremist.... that is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 10:45 PM

The OP is disrespected by your Elephant Talk.

Wait... I am getting something... oh. I am dizzy... it's hazy... it's becoming clearer... what's that???... a pissant? a... Holy fuck! It's a vision. I am channelling... What the fuck is wrong with you bunch of broke dick fucks that you have to make every fucking thread about you and ignore the serious plight of those people that the fucking thread was about?

Whoa... I passed out but, just before I did, I was with Spaw in my spin and he told me to tell all of you holier than thou assholes to go fuck yourselves and then ignore the thread forever on accounta that's what he actually had to do in the end because it was too much heartache and he wants me not to have any more stress than is required. I agree with him... you broke dick fucks that hijack every fucking thread you post on are not worth one point on my blood pressure scale.

Thanks, Spaw. Yer my guardian asskicker. I will sleep well tonight knowing you are looking after me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:06 AM

"Antisemitic....that's a matter of opinion."
An "Antisemitic"respected Israeli national newspaper - a new low in the 'let's defend Israeli State terrorism' card game, surely?
When will you people address the facts of the behaviour of the Israeli regime and how it is viewed by the "decent" world, rather than blaming others for recognising what they are doing in the name of the Jewish people.
Jim Carroll

ISRAELI EXPANSION FORCING PALESTINIANS INTO CITY OF JERICHO
The journey from the Allenby Bridge crossing from Jordan to the Israeli-occupied West Bank town of Jericho takes 15 minutes. For the time being, it is free of Israeli checkpoints, soldiers, walls, but the check¬points and soldiers can return at a moment's notice.
Israel's 700km-long, -grey West Bank wall snakes its way across the West Bank close to Jerusalem on the summit of mountain range. Entering Jer¬icho, narrow streets are lined with clothing shops, garages and food stalls, bright with the primary colours of bananas, bell peppers and velvety green almonds. A fountain spouts precious water in a tiny park at the centre of this oasis town. Shoppers heavy with bags hur¬ry across the busy street.
There's not a tourist in sight, despite the fact Jericho vies with Damascus as the old¬est city in the world. Tourists shun the town and make quick tours of Tel Sultan and the 8th-century Hisham palace. They ride the telepherique to the monastery on the Mount of Temptation, where tradition holds Jesus was challenged by the devil to transform. stones into bread.

AUTONOMY
The first city in the West Bank to be granted autonomy under the 1993 Oslo accord, Jericho has been transformed from a provincial backwater into an administrative centre for the Jericho governorate and a catchment area for Palestinians being squeezed out of the Jordan Valley by expanding Israeli settlements.
In 2007, before Israel step¬ped up efforts to settle the valley, Jericho town had 18,000 residents; today it has 22,600 permanent and 2,000 temporary inhabitants. The governorate rate has a population of 55,000, including two camps housing 10,500 refugees.
Most of the temporary residents are Palestinians from Jerusalem and Ramallah. Scores of white stone houses, many with red tile roofs, have obliterated grain fields and fruit orchards.
Wealthy Jerusalemites come here because Israel refuses them permits to build in their home town. In Jericho, Israel charges huge fees for building permits, which take years to obtain and require lawyers' fees, and then it levies heavy taxes once buildings are completed.

SOMETHING NEW
"Every day there is something new to say about Jericho," says Jericho district governor Majed Fityani. "Israelis are planning to transfer Palestinians [Bedouin] living south of Nablus and Bethlehem to 46 locations," he says, including two in his district.
The Israeli aim is to "clear these areas of Palestinians in order to expand their settlement blocks. There are 39 Israeli settlements in
the Jordan Valley with a population of a maximum of 6,000 during the day and 500 at night. Israel is investing in agriculture, consuming 95 per cent of the water, and extracting minerals from the Dead Sea, making a profit of $1 billion.
"Eleven per cent of the Jordan Valley is under the settlers' control, 85 per cent is a closed military area. Palestinians have only 4 per cent."
The settlers consume 6.6 times more water than the Palestinians, who are 8-9 times more numerous. "Palestinians are not allowed to sink new artesian wells," he says. "They can only use the 200 present during Jordanian rule before 1967. Now there are 67 functioning and their salt con¬tent is high. People in the valley are planting palm trees due to salt; vegetables [formerly a main cash crop] are at a minimum."

ISRAELI SOLDIERS
Although Jericho is classified as "Area A", under full Palestinian control, he says, "every day Israeli soldiers enter the area and arrest people ... even for keeping caged birds .. . the fine is 5,000 shekels [€1,160]. Israel's aim is to say to us, 'We are the rulers here.'"
Muhieddin al-Husseini (1860-1944), the grandfather of my friend Dyala, whose family has lived in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, bought land here at the end of the 19th century and early in the 20th, dug canals and brought water from the mountains above Jericho.
Over lunch in her modest family house, the first to be built in stone here, Dyala says, "He went around on horse¬back in the mountains and befriended the outlaws... gave them food to protect his crops. He sold bananas to Jordan and Saudi Arabia, transport¬ing them across the Dead Sea by boat."
Today on his lands stand the homes of descendants who can stay only a limited number of days in Jericho if they are to retain their precious Jerusa¬lem identity cards. Israel's 2010-2020 Master Plan aims to ensure a 60:40 ratio of Jewish to Palestinian residents of Jerusalem, annexed by Israel in 1967, through administrative deportation to Jericho, other West Bank cities and abroad. The previous ratio was 70:30 but the high Palestinian birth rate and an exodus of Israelis from Jerusalem defeated the planners.

Michael Jensen in Jericho
Irish Times 5th June

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:57 AM

Well, if you filter through the nastiness of the Usual Suspects, there is some interesting stuff here, including some of the comments from the Usual Suspects.

I don't see anybody in this thread denying that genocide does take place and that it is an atrocity, and nobody denies that almost all nations must bear guilt for having made progress and acquired property by mass extermination of the aboriginal people.

Ed T says that what happened in Canada was "cultural genocide," while I have to admit that what happened in the US in the 19th century and earlier was not only cultural. I've had the impression that Canadians have been far more just than Americans in their treatment of First Nations, but I wonder how many thousands of natives died in the conquest and colonization of Canada?

It seems to me that whenever genocide takes place, cultural genocide also happens.

---

But then the next question is, how do we respond to genocides or cultural genocides that took place long in the past? In Canada and the United States, most of the current residents are descended from refugees who were not living in North America at the time of the conquest and extermination of the aboriginal peoples. The current governments and religions operate under principles that strictly prohibit genocide, and current governments and religions have tried for decades to repair what they could of the damage that was done. There are always demands for apologies and reparations, but is it fair to require the descendants of refugees to apologize for the acts of people they have no tie to?

There are some places that have denied the genocides of their past - Turkey is a prime example, but the story of what happened in Turkey in the early 20th century, is not an easy web to unravel. The Turks were also an oppressed people at one time, and current Turkish immigrants are scorned in many if not most parts of Europe.

I think it's futile to attempt to assess blame and extract apologies and reparations, especially for misdeeds that happened generations ago. However, we need to study these misdeeds carefully so perhaps we can learn how to ensure they don't happen again. We also need to do whatever we can to repair the damage that was done to aboriginal life and culture.

But should the children of refugees be forced to leave their homes to satisfy the claims of the descendants of those who were displaced generations earlier? In most situations, I don't think so.

---

And as for Israel, there are no easy answers. The Israelis are descendants of homeless refugees, and much of the land for Jewish settlements was acquired with at least some level of legitimacy. Arab Muslims and Christians who are citizens of Israel, seem to do quite well. It's the people of Palestine who have not fared well at all, partly because their leaders have so often been dedicated to the elimination of the State of Israel. But the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territory, is inexcusable. I can't see how Israel justifies the construction of large Jewish settlements in Palestine, with Palestinian homes bulldozed to make room for the new construction. And there are many stories of homes being bulldozed to punish the families of people who have offended the Israeli government in some way.

But on the other hand, I think Israel has a right to survive - and it is very difficult to survive when surrounded by people who want to destroy them. So, what's a nation to do? Israel isn't doing a very good job of it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:18 AM

If we use the term "cultural genocide" we could of course be referring to the rewriting of history or current affairs, as portrayed by Keith A Hole of Hertford and Terribulus.

Nice cut & paste above Terribulus. Your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:26 AM

Musket, you're smarter than your Mudcat persona. Why not rely on logic and solid information, and lay off the nastiness for a while?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:53 AM

Jim,
When will you people address the facts of the behaviour of the Israeli regime and how it is viewed by the "decent" world,

I could have written that.
Thank you.

The "decent world," liberal democracies, have warm and friendly relations with Israel and do not accuse it of human rights abuses, war crimes or massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:54 AM

Joe Offer - 07 Jun 15 - 02:57 AM - Excellent Post and the one that followed it isn't too shoddy either, certainly hits the mark, but my guess it will all be to no avail.

The situation that the Israelis find themselves in robs them of a great deal of choice in how they can act and as long as their Arab neighbours stick to their three "Nos" the game they have played since 1920 goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:59 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:29 AM

No, Teribus, I have not given an opinion on Keith's three points for the very reason you say. So how can my opinion be considered alongside anyones? Still no found anywhere where I have disregarded facts then? Thought not.

Gnu - Brilliant. I thought it was really him :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:46 AM

"The "decent world," liberal democracies, have warm and friendly relations with Israel"
And all but Canada are now condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians - including those you list as "decent".
Israel ranks with States like Saudi Arabia, Qtar and Syria in their past and present relationship with so-called "decent" countries (has the same ring as "real historians, don'cha think?"
"I don't see anybody in this thread denying that genocide does take place and that it is an atrocity"
You don't?
Do you have Specsavers in the U.S.?
Several "usual suspects" have spent a great deal of time denying, ignoring and justifying the atrocities committed by Israel since the establishment of the State - two of the leading staunch defenders of Israel claim allegence to your own religion and in doing so, they bring shame on it, as you do in joining them.
I predict with a degree of confidence that the ethnic cleansing described above, taking place in Israel as we argue, will continue to be ignored (not even defended) by those who get off on that sort of thing.
Now that's what I call "nastiness".
"The Israelis are descendants of homeless refugees, and much of the land for Jewish settlements"
And they in their turn have created a refugee crisis of fr greater proportions - persecuted turned persecutor.
"Palestinians are the largest and longest suffering group of refugees in the world. One in three refugees world wide is Palestinian. There are about 6.5 million Palestinian refugees worldwide. More than 3.8 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents displaced in 1948 are registered for humanitarian assistance with the United Nations. Another 1.5 million Palestinian refugees and their descendents, also displaced in 1948, are not registered with the UN. About 263,000 Palestinians and their descendents are internally displaced i.e. inside present-day "Israel"."
Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 05:26 AM

So Gnome, you do not disregard facts presented along with links and sources that substantiate them?

So you claim to have given no opinion on the three points that Keith made because of your self confessed lack of knowledge on the subject?

If that is the case could you then please explain this:

Seeing as you brought up the dreaded WW1 thread earlier, I hold a deeply rooted belief that the British leadership in WW1 was bad. You say that there is a consensus amongst those who know better that it was not so and mock my belief as being outdated. -
GUEST,Dave the Gnome        - 06 May 15
Mudcat - changes in style and profile (361* d)        
RE: Mudcat - changes in style and profile

Your deeply rooted belief is based on poor history, misinformation and lies. Your clearly stated opinion totally disagreeing with the last of the three points Keith put up for discussion flies in the face of every metric that could be used to determine success and failure in that conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 06:35 AM

"So Gnome, you do not disregard facts presented along with links and sources that substantiate them?"
You obviously do as you and your mate have ignored every single one put up so far.
"Your deeply rooted belief is based on poor history, misinformation and lies"
As you have put up nothing substantial of your own you are relly not in the position to make such acusationYour history is selective shoddy and arrogantly declared (as is your habit) rather than substantiated.
All of the points Keith has put up has been shot down in flames a long time ago - now we are seeing a defensive circling of the wagons in an effort to save face - too late, too late, the maiden cried!!
As the peahen said - "never mid waving the feathers, show us your willie"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:03 AM

Teribus and Keith have adequately illustrated who the "willies" are on this thread....."Team Musket and friends"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:24 AM

I do Joe. That's why the agenda driven filth makes me want to spew. It really is sickening to read some of their drivel. You obviously cherry pick, whilst apart from anything too long to bother with from Terribulus, I tend to read what they put, wondering if it is naivety, lack of intelligence or merely that cyberspace is somewhere where they can shout without hearing the laughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:50 AM

Jim,
And all but Canada are now condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians - including those you list as "decent"

The countries of the EU?
Australia?
Show me any decent democracy "condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 07:50 AM

An interesting perspective on Canadian First nations issues:

Ontario Premiers reaction

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:01 AM

New Zealand,
"New Zealand is prepared to speak out against actions by any party that are likely to have contravened international law. These include rocket attacks by Hamas and/or other Palestinian militant groups against Israel. Equally, we have spoken out against actions by Israel, including the blockade of the Gaza Strip, and expansion of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory."
http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Foreign-Relations/Middle-East/2-Arab-Israeli-conflict.php

Note no mention of "condemning Israel for their ethnic cleansing and their mass murder of civilians."

It is all false propaganda from Israel's enemies Jim.
You gullible dupes lap it all up, but informed governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:01 AM

Palestinian human rights activist Bassem Eid:

"We therefore call for an awakening of conscience among the ranks of those who call themselves pro-Palestinian. If they truly are pro-Palestinian, and not simply anti-Israel, then we expect them to strongly condemn Hamas terrorism and Fatah corruption which are the main causes of Palestinian suffering, rather than demonize Israel while ignoring the consequences of that demonization on the lives of real Palestinians."

Calling for an awakening of conscience

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:15 AM

India,
Al Jazeera
"Why Modi's India aligns more closely with Israel than with Palestinians"

"As Sadanand Dhume, a fellow at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, argued in the Wall Street Journal, "New Delhi appears ready to suggest publicly what many officials already acknowledge privately: A burgeoning strategic partnership with Israel matters more to India than reflexive solidarity with the Palestinian cause."

"India's engagement with Israel has grown substantially in the last two decades on military, scientific, commercial and agricultural matters. The affinity has been less ideological than pragmatic, each side understanding the other's needs. "

"Israeli embassy spokesman Ohad Horsandi emphasized the shared experience of terrorism. "Israel, India and other like minded countries," he told Indian media, "are facing terror threats from organizations with similar radical ideology such as Al-Qaeda, ISIS, LeT [Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based militant outfit accused of committing the 2008 Mumbai attacks and other atrocities in India] and Hamas. These organizations are committed to kill, kidnap and terrorize civilians and should be treated as terrorist organizations.""
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/3/modi-israel-relations.html

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:26 AM

Keith's defence of Israel is based entirely on the argument that if Israel was what the world sees it as being, it would not get the support of Western ("decent") governments.
Even if the the policies of governments who not only regularly support terrorist states, sell the arms and consider them friends and allies were in any way a guide to whether or not such "friends" are terrorist states (enough of them are) and even if countries such as the U.K. and Britain, who invade countries out of self interest and economic and political gain could beconsidered "decent", the argument is a crass one anyway.
All the countries named by Keith have condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state.
The argument is insane and repeating it is dishonest.
World suppost for Israel
Now, even America has siad Israel can no longer rely on it's veto in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

All the countries named by Keith have condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state.

Not true.
Some oppose settlements.
The rest is made up bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

I take it your prayers at church today were for more Israeli bombing of Palestinian schools and hospitals Keith? It's been a while since you and your mates could rave over military tactics. About time Uncle Bibi unleashed his blitzkrieg again eh?

Two wrongs must mean a right in your bible I suppose. I thought your religious nonsense saw them all as people of the book? Or is it just those who look like the old men walking round Clerkenwell when you were a kid?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:35 AM

NEW ZEALAND POSITION ON ISRAEL
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:36 AM

I am willing to participate in reasoned debate.
Exchange views.
You can not do that though.
Just shout nonsense and abuse, then put on another hat and do it again.
You ruin this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:37 AM

"The rest is made up bollocks."
Show one country that openly supports settlements or takes Israel's side in the Gaza massacres last year
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:39 AM

Cross posted Jim.
That last was to Musket.

Jim, that NZ link is the link that I just provided, and with extracts.

There is no "condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 09:08 AM

"Jim, that NZ link is the link that I just provided, and with extracts."
Which calls for a 2 state settlement - rejected by Israel
You have yet to provide one coutry that supports Israel ction in gaza and on settlements - not one, despite your desperate dredging
Not even the ******* politicians with war crimes records of their own support Israel
Your defence of Israel is as it always has been - an extremist joke
What pair of right wing caricatures!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 10:08 AM

You have yet to produce one that "condemned Israel's behaviour, both in laughtering civilians and in usurping Palestinian land and creating a mono-religious state"

You claimed that many do, so show us.

I have always acknowledged that some Israeli policies are criticised by some other states, but no talk of massacres, war crimes or human rights abuses as you claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 10:17 AM

You have the links condemning all, withdrawing the veto condemning settlements
You claim support - you have none -0 uoimade it up
Even if politicians did support them with their silence - it counts for nothing - they are as bd as each other.
Your history of support of ethnic cleansing amd mass murder shames you
Game set and match, as they'll be saying in Wimbledon in a couple of weeks
Byeee
Have a nice pray
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:01 AM

The Gnome has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden hasn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM

"The Gnome has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden hasn't he."
Perhaps he's got something better to do than spend all day taking part in a repetitive and boring tit for tat row between adults arguing in the manner of a infant school playground.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:36 AM

"The Gnome has gone awfully quiet all of a sudden hasn't he."
You seem to have stopped bullying, blustering and shooting your mouth off too - as is your wont when you are in a corner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 11:51 AM

Jim, I have shown you that EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India all have good and friendly relations with Israel.
They may be critical of some policies, like settlements, but that is normal in international relations.

They are none of them critical of war crimes, massacres or human rights abuses because there are none.

Those countries do not ignore such things.

Their silence, that you acknowledge, proves that they do not believe a word of it.
Nor do I.
Only you gullible dupes who believe everything Israel's enemies come out with.
Informed governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 12:37 PM

I have shown you that EU, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India all have good and friendly relations with Israel."
You have failed totally to prove that they support Israel's behaviour
You said they supported Israel - they didn't, they have all criticised the killing of civilians, bombing of hospitals and ethnic cleansing.
Thwe amount of energy you seem to be prepared defending such behaviour is disgusting
You are one of the most inhuman individuals I have ever come across.
Makes me proud to be an atheist, if you are what passes for a Christian
Bet your church is proud of you
Game over - go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:15 PM

Their silence...proves that they do not believe a word of it.

Only to an idiot. Google up "The Ignorance Fallacy".

Or better yet, geab a copy of Carl Sagan'a The Demon Haunted World and actually read it. Assuming, of course, that you CAN read.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:17 PM

For anyone
Interested, some of the Canadian reports recommendations:

truth and reconciliation report recommendations 

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:49 PM

No fallacy Greg.
They do criticise Israel's settlement policy, but they do not criticise Israel for massacres, war crimes or human rights abuses.
Why don't they?

They do criticise Hamas for massacres, war crimes and human rights abuses, but not Israel.
Again, why?

Jim,
You have failed totally to prove that they support Israel's behaviour
You said they supported Israel -

I quoted you extracts that say they support Israel.
They only criticise certain policies. Just the settlements really.
No criticism for massacres, war crimes or human rights abuses because they are not aware of any.
Not from Israel anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:53 PM

I have indeed been doing things that normal people do on fine bright Sunday:-) You really are scraping the barrel now, Teribus. As I am sure you know that post was illustrating the point about mocking people. On top of which I did indeed have that deep rooted belief. You seem to have missed the point that it is no longer deep rooted. Keith's points were indeed food for thought which is why I never disputed them. What is it with the selective memories of you guys?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 01:58 PM

Jim, I think we should stop now, unless you can actually quote some states accusing Israel of those things.

It was you who raised the issue of Israel on this thread.

None of which makes an iota of difference to the fact that Israel is an extremist terrorist state.

My reply was that no decent democratic government regards them as such, and I proved that for EU countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India.
Unless you can produce a quote, that is it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:00 PM

Out of interest, one of the things I have been doing was visiting a garden centre. I was quite taken by a water feature using a barrel. I did not buy it when they told me I could not keep fish in it to shoot them... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM

Dave, you wholeheartedly supported those who rejected the views of the historians, and their ridiculing of me for taking my views from their findings.
You joined in that ridiculing.
It is a cowardly lie to claim now that it was only for the style and not the substance of my posts that you mocked and ridiculed me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:46 PM

Whatever, Keith. Keep deluding yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:07 PM

OK, Keith, then how about you state for us, in detail, what the Ignorance Fallacy is, if you claim it doesn't apply to your nonsensical statement: Their silence...proves that they do not believe a word of it and then explain to us WHY it doesn't apply.


Don't bother with Sagan's book- even if you could read it, you wouldn't understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM

Dave the Gnome - Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:29 AM

"I have not given an opinion on Keith's three points for the very reason you say."

Kinda contradicted by:

GUEST,Dave the Gnome - 06 May 15

"I hold a deeply rooted belief that the British leadership in WW1 was bad."

So at what point did you say to Keith that your previously deeply rooted belief was now no longer deeply held if held at all? Could you supply us with the post in which you told him that?

Keep wriggling - by the bye aren't Garden Centres rather dangerous places for Gnomes to be wandering around?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 06:09 PM

Sorry to interrupt, but I thought you all might enjoy this. Scott Adams has advanced a theory that all the combative, insulting posts on internet forums are made by one guy: http://assets.amuniversal.com/e1996ea0c0af0132d64a005056a9545d

It kind of makes sense when you think about it. Those posts all sound so similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 06:58 PM

Hey, it's Musket (1,2,3 and maybe more) lol!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 01:22 AM

The intrepid Ed T, in a noble attempt to bring this discussion back to the intended topic, posted a link above to the lengthy recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. I urge you to read this, folks. It is a very reasonable consideration of the issue, and could be adapted to similar situations throughout the world.

It was noted above that the Pope was asked to issue an apology for the misdeeds of teachers and other staff in church-run institutions where aboriginal people had been mistreated. Within the context of these recommendations, I think this is a very reasonable request. I see above that some Vatican functionary says that an apology isn't going to happen. I think it's safe to say that over the last two years, Pope Francis has continually contradicted the predictions of Vatican functionaries who think they can manage him. It will be interesting to see how he responds, but he will set his own time for a response. To expect him to honor a deadline is unreasonable. For an apology to be sincere and effective, it must be made in proper context, and not simply to satisfy demands.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 04:20 AM

Yep - Got me there Teribus. I did use a poor example of mocking peoples beliefs. I lied when I said it was a deeply held belief to prove a point. Others, like Keith, seems to have picked up on that. Still, it was no more a lie than

Subject: RE: BS: Phantasyfile
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 09:11 PM

...they only post on this forum to "take the piss" - honestly just cannot see why we bother with them ...

As they say in the song. Who's the fool now?

Garden centres are fine for me. No-one ever picks a belligerent Gnome :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 05:17 AM

Greg, my case was that the decent democracies do not regard Israel as "a terrorist state."

The examples of such democracies I have used are the EU states, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India.

They may have criticisms of individual policies such as the settlements, but the do not accuse Israel of terrorism.
They do not accuse Israel of massacres, war crimes or rights abuses.
They do accuse Palestinians of those things.

Unless you can produce something, I have nothing more to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:54 AM

Dave, we all have deeply held beliefs.
When they are challenged, we must question or defend them.

You people all had the same beliefs about WW1.
I challenged them with current historical knowledge.
You refused to question your beliefs but could not defend them with historical knowledge.
It was against you.
Instead you resorted to ridicule and abuse, and Musket and Raggy actually invented "quotes" from current historians.

Even in recent weeks you Dave have jokingly inserted "consensus" into some of your posts in mockery of my use of it in debate.
It was the substance not the tone of my argument that you mocked and ridiculed with the others.

And you lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 07:01 AM

Yes, Keith. It is well known that my only purpose in life is to mock and ridicule you.

That was mocking and ridiculing in case you had not noticed :-) I can assure you it is not personal though. I also ridicule Teribus, ake and goofus and one or two others.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 07:21 AM

"Jim, I think we should stop now, unless you can actually quote some states accusing Israel of those things."
Don't need the confirmation or (in this case) the silence of States that sell weapons to monsters to recognise State terrorism and mass murder when what we watch and read on the news speak for itself
1940s
1982
1994
2013
2014
2114
2115
As I said - the history speaks for itself – it's tantamount to fascism to say thatweneed politicians to tell us what we can work out for ourselves
Dave, we all have deeply held beliefs
Yours appear to be in yourself - certainly not in Christia values, as I understand them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 07:38 AM

Belligerent Gnomes??? - I was thinking more along the lines of bespectacled, chubby, little bald rotund ones with concertinas Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 07:59 AM

Your links Jim - not one single word about the 830,000 Jews robbed of their property and forcibly deported - no "right of return" for them eh?

In 1948 as the League of nations Mandate for Palestine ended the Jews of Palestine declared the birth of their state - Israel - immediately recognised by the U.S.S.R., the USA and the UN - they were also immediately attacked by the armies of five neighbouring Arab States - why no mention of that.

Your supporting information as usual is highly and carefully selected, incomplete and deliberately misleading.

Last elections in Israel were when? How regularly are they held? Who can stand for election to the Israeli Parliament?

Last elections in the West Bank and in Gaza were when? How often have new elections been cancelled? What lame ass excuses have been offered for not holding fresh elections? Which party has launched their political opponents from the roofs of high rise buildings? In the West Bank and in Gaza have sectors of the population who belong to minority religious groups thrived or have they declined?

Where is the map from the Palestinian Authority/Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah that shows the agreed borders of the two state solution they claim they are "fighting" for?

All perfectly reasonable questions Jim what's the party line on them?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 08:21 AM

Jim, my case is that no decent government believes all that bollocks about Israel being "a terrorist state."

As I said, unless you can produce something, you have lost that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 08:29 AM

I also ridicule Teribus, ake and goofus and one or two others.

Yes.
You are unable to counter their arguments either.
Mockery you can manage.

I just stick to reasoned debate.
Because I can.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 08:38 AM

"Where is the map from the Palestinian Authority/Hamas/Fatah/Hezbollah that shows the agreed borders of the two state solution they claim they are "fighting" for?"
Ah - the sleeper wakes!!!
Maps were drawn up by politicians - no politician has the right to come to an agreement whereby any signatory can move in and drive out occupants whose families have lived in the area for centuries - even millenia- his is exactly what has happened in Israel.
British troop ships steamed away from Palestine to the sound of 'Freedom fighters'hurling grenades into the homes of Palestinians - often containing Arab families.
It was incidents like these that Einstein and his colleagues wrote about when he warnd against the rise of Zionist Fascism - now it is a continuing fact of like - go and look out last years destruction of Gaza
What the **** have elections to do with anything - The Equality Reports shows what Israeli democracy means to Arabs and Bedouins at the hands of Israeli troops and rapacious settlers?
Israel has made persistent efforts to Apartheidise the area in order to set up a monotheist State over the last few years and has received world-wide condemnation for having done so - some of the most vocal coing from moderate Jews.
Want to show me where that appears on any agreement - no - didn't think so!!!
Even in the case of war, no conquering army has ever been allowed to get away with driving those who lost the wars out of their homes to make room for the victors - Israel has done just that, and no-marks like you pair of comedians have supported such behaviour.
How about coming out from behind pieces of paper signed three quarters of a century ago and addressing the reality of Israeli behaviour in human terms - I'm sure you can get someone to explain it to you, it obviously isn't part of yur own makeup.
Israel is an expansionist terrorist state hiding behind the name of the Jewish people to legitimise their behavior
You have just been given seven examples of that terrorits activities - lies? of no consequence? Antisemitism?..... what?
Come back when you've scraped together some humanity

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 08:40 AM

Israel is an expansionist terrorist state hiding behind the name of the Jewish people to legitimise their behavior

Says who Jim?
Not one single decent democratic government!
Just you gullible dupes who believe everything put out by Israel's enemies.
Informed governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 08:50 AM

I have nothing more to say.

So, Keith, you admit you have no idea what I'm talking about, nor what The Ignorance Fallacy is, nor do you care, nor will you learn.

So we're back to your initial idiotic & ignorant claim.

No surprises there.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 09:50 AM

Err.. Every government who didn't abstain or vote otherwise in the many UN resolutions Keith. The words Jim used aren't ones I'd choose, but if you read the resolutions of The United Nations, you'll see exactly that. And the delegates representing The UK government voting accordingly.

You ask why people on here condemn Israel but not Hamas. Well for starters, nobody on here is defending Hamas, so no reason to discuss them. You and others are defending Israel though, hence talking about Israel.

It isn't difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 10:19 AM

I was thinking more along the lines of bespectacled, chubby, little bald rotund ones with concertinas Dave.

Pretty spot on apart from the bespectacled - Although I do wear them for driving and watching TV. Well done!

Keith

You are unable to counter their arguments either.

What arguments?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 10:41 AM

"Says who Jim?"
The facts say Keith
Piss off with your democratic governments -every one of them has criticised Israel's expansionism and most have condemned the massacres and destruction that took place last year.
You have been given fact after fact on Israel and have offered none of your own, just appeasement to those who commit atrocities.
If you have nothing to contribute other than denials and fascist rhetoric on believing politicians, please keep
your promise and say nothing- which just about sums up your contribution to this discussion (apart from entertainment value, that is)
You want to know "who says - try this for size, and feel free to tell them they are Anti-Semites, or liars, or wrong or "Leave it to the politicians".
Jim Carroll

Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.



We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.



Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.



We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!



Signed,



Survivors:



Hajo Meyer, survivor of Auschwitz, The Netherlands.
Henri Wajnblum, survivor and son of a victim of Auschwitz from Lodz, Poland. Lives in Belgium.
Renate Bridenthal, child refugee from Hitler, granddaughter of Auschwitz victim, United States.
Marianka Ehrlich Ross, survivor of Nazi ethnic cleansing in Vienna, Austria. Now lives in United States.
Irena Klepfisz, child survivor from the Warsaw Ghetto, Poland. Now lives in United States.
Hedy Epstein, her parents & other family members were deported to Camp de Gurs & subsequently all perished in Auschwitz. Now lives in United States.
Lillian Rosengarten, survivor of the Nazi Holocaust, United States.
Suzanne Weiss, survived in hiding in France, and daughter of a mother who was murdered in Auschwitz. Now lives in Canada.
H. Richard Leuchtag, survivor, United States.
Ervin Somogyi, survivor and son of survivors, United States.
Ilse Hadda, survivor on Kindertransport to England. Now lives in United States.
Jacques Glaser, survivor, France.
Eva Naylor, surivor, New Zealand.
Suzanne Ross, child refugee from Nazi occupation in Belgium, two thirds of family perished in the Lodz Ghetto, in Auschwitz, and other Camps, United States.
Bernard Swierszcz, Polish survivor, lost relatives in Majdanek concentration camp. Now lives in the United States.
Joseph Klinkov, hidden child in Poland. Lives in the United States.
Nicole Milner, survivor from Belgium. Now lives in United States.
Hedi Saraf, child survivor and daughter of survivor of Dachau, United States.
Michael Rice, child survivor, son and grandson of survivor, aunt and cousin murderd, ALL 14 remaining Jewish children in my Dutch boarding school were murdered in concentration camps, United States.
Barbara Roose, survivor from Germany, half-sister killed in Auschwitz, United States.
Sonia Herzbrun, survivor of Nazi genocide, France.
Ivan Huber, survivor with my parents, but 3 of 4 grandparents murdered, United States.
Altman Janina, survivor of Janowski concentration camp, Lvov. Lives in Israel.
Leibu Strul Zalman, survivor from Vaslui Romania. Lives in Jerusalem, Palestine.
Miriam Almeleh, survivor, United States.
George Bartenieff, child survivor from Germany and son of survivors, United States.
Margarete Liebstaedter, survivor, hidden by Christian people in Holland. Lives in Belgium.
Edith Bell, survivor of Westerbork, Theresienstadt, Auschwitz and Kurzbach. Lives in United States.
Janine Euvrard, survivor, France.
Harry Halbreich, survivor, Germany.
Ruth Kupferschmidt, survivor, spent five years hiding, The Netherlands.
Annette Herskovits, hidden child and daughter of victims deported to Auschwitz from France. Lives in the United States.
Felicia Langer, survivor from Germany. Lives in Germany.
Moshe Langer, survivor from Germany, Moshe survived 5 concentration camps, family members were exterminated. Lives in Germany.
Adam Policzer, hidden child from Hungary. Now lives in Canada.
Juliane Biro, survivor via the Kindertransport to England, daughter of survivors, niece of victims, United States.
Edith Rubinstein, child refugee, granddaughter of 3 victims, many other family members were victims, Belgium.
Jacques Bude, survivor, mother and father murdered in Auschwitz, Belgium.
Nicole Kahn, survivor, France.
Shimon Schwarzschild, survivor from Germany, United States.
George Winston, survivor, Australia.
Marietta Elliott-Kleerkoper, child survivor, hidden from 1942 till 1945 in the Dutch countryside with Christians, Australia.
Susan Varga, survivor, Australia.
Gilles Cocos, survivor and brother and child of survivors, lost several relatives in the camps, United States.


Children of survivors:



Liliana Kaczerginski, daughter of Vilna ghetto resistance fighter and granddaughter of murdered in Ponary woods, Lithuania. Now lives in France.
Jean-Claude Meyer, son of Marcel, shot as a hostage by the Nazis, whose sister and parents died in Auschwitz. Now lives in France.
Chava Finkler, daughter of survivor of Starachovice labour camp, Poland. Now lives in Canada.
Micah Bazant, child of a survivor of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Sylvia Schwarz, daughter and granddaughter of survivors and granddaughter of victims of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Margot Goldstein, daughter and granddaughter of survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Ellen Schwarz Wasfi, daughter of survivors from Vienna, Austria. Now lives in United States.
Lisa Kosowski, daughter of survivor and granddaughter of Auschwitz victims, United States.
Daniel Strum, son of a refugee from Vienna, who, with his parents were forced to flee in 1939, his maternal grand-parents were lost, United States.
Bruce Ballin, son of survivors, some relatives of parents died in camps, one relative beheaded for being in the Baum Resistance Group, United States.
Rachel Duell, daughter of survivors from Germany and Poland, United States.
Tom Mayer, son of survivor and grandson of victims, United States.
Alex Nissen, daughter of survivors who escaped but lost family in the Holocaust, Australia.
Mark Aleshnick, son of survivor who lost most of her family in Nazi genocide, United States.
Prof. Haim Bresheeth, son of two survivors of Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen, London.
Todd Michael Edelman, son and grandson of survivors and great-grandson of victims of the Nazi genocide in Hungary, Romania and Slovakia, United States.
Tim Naylor, son of survivor, New Zealand.
Victor Nepomnyashchy, son and grandson of survivors and grandson and relative of many victims, United States.
Tanya Ury, daughter of parents who fled Nazi Germany, granddaughter, great granddaugher and niece of survivors and those who died in concentration camps, Germany.
Rachel Giora, daughter of Polish Jews who fled Poland, Israel.
Jane Hirschmann, daughter of survivors, United States.
Jenny Heinz, daughter of survivor, United States.
Miranda Pinch, daughter of Beate Sommer who was a Czeck refugee along with her father Ernst Sommer, UK.
Elsa Auerbach, daughter of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany, United States.
Julian Clegg, son and grandson of Austrian refugees, relative of Austrian and Hungarian concentration camp victims, Taiwan.
David Mizner, son of a survivor, relative of people who died in the Holocaust, United States.
Jeffrey J. Westcott, son and grandson of Holocaust survivors from Germany, United States.
Susan K. Jacoby, daughter of parents who were refugees from Nazi Germany, granddaughter of survivor of Buchenwald, United States.
Audrey Bomse, daughter of a survivor of Nazi ethnic cleansing in Vienna, lives in United States.
Daniel Gottschalk, son and grandson of refugees from the Holocaust, relative to various family members who died in the Holocaust, United States.
Barbara Grossman, daughter of survivors, granddaughter of Holocaust victims, United States.
Abraham Weizfeld PhD, son of survivorswho escaped Warsaw (Jewish Bundist) and Lublin ghettos, Canada.
David Rohrlich, son of refugees from Vienna, grandson of victim, United States.
Walter Ballin, son of holocaust survivors, United States.
Fritzi Ross, daughter of survivor, granddaughter of Dachau survivor Hugo Rosenbaum, great-granddaughter and great-niece of victims, United States.
Reuben Roth, son of survivors who fled from Poland in 1939, Canada.
Tony Iltis, father fled from Czechoslovakia and grandmother murdered in Auschwitz, Australia.
Anne Hudes, daughter and granddaughter of survivors from Vienna, Austria, great-granddaughter of victims who perished in Auschwitz, United States.
Mateo Nube, son of survivor from Berlin, Germany. Lives in United States.
John Mifsud, son of survivors from Malta, United States.
Mike Okrent, son of two holocaust / concentration camp survivors, United States.
Susan Bailey, daughter of survivor and niece of victims, UK.
Brenda Lewis, child of Kindertransport survivor, parent's family died in Auschwitz and Terezin. Lives in Canada.
Patricia Rincon-Mautner, daughter of survivor and granddaughter of survivor, Colombia.
Barak Michèle, daughter and grand-daughter of a survivor, many members of family were killed in Auschwitz or Bessarabia. Lives in Germany.
Jessica Blatt, daughter of child refugee survivor, both grandparents' entire families killed in Poland. Lives in United States
Maia Ettinger, daughter & granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Ammiel Alcalay, child of survivors from then Yugoslavia. Lives in United States.
Julie Deborah Kosowski, daughter of hidden child survivor, grandparents did not return from Auschwitz, United States.
Julia Shpirt, daughter of survivor, United States.
Ruben Rosenberg Colorni, grandson and son of survivors, The Netherlands.
Victor Ginsburgh, son of survivors, Belgium.
Arianne Sved, daughter of a survivor and granddaughter of victim, Spain.
Rolf Verleger, son of survivors, father survived Auschwitz, mother survived deportation from Berlin to Estonia, other family did not survive. Lives in Germany.
Euvrard Janine, daughter of survivors, France.
H. Fleishon, daughter of survivors, United States.
Barbara Meyer, daughter of survivor in Polish concentration camps. Lives in Italy.
Susan Heuman, child of survivors and granddaughter of two grandparents murdered in a forest in Minsk. Lives in United States.
Rami Heled, son of survivors, all grandparents and family killed by the Germans in Treblinka, Oswiecim and Russia. Lives in Israel.
Eitan Altman, son of survivor, France.
Jorge Sved, son of survivor and grandson of victim, United Kingdom
Maria Kruczkowska, daughter of Lea Horowicz who survived the holocaust in Poland. Lives in Poland.
Sarah Lanzman, daughter of survivor of Auschwitz, United States.
Cheryl W, daughter, granddaughter and nieces of survivors, grandfather was a member of the Dutch Underground (Eindhoven). Lives in Australia.
Chris Holmquist, son of survivor, UK.
Beverly Stuart, daughter and granddaughter of survivors from Romania and Poland. Lives in United States.
Peter Truskier, son and grandson of survivors, United States.
Karen Bermann, daughter of a child refugee from Vienna. Lives in United States.
Rebecca Weston, daughter and granddaughter of survivor, Spain.
Prof. Yosefa Loshitzky, daughter of Holocaust survivors, London, UK.
Marion Geller, daughter and granddaughter of those who escaped, great-granddaughter and relative of many who died in the camps, UK.
Susan Slyomovics, daughter and granddaughter of survivors of Auschwitz, Plaszow, Markleeberg and Ghetto Mateszalka, United States.
Helga Fischer Mankovitz, daughter, niece and cousin of refugees who fled from Austria, niece of victim who perished, Canada.
Michael Wischnia, son of survivors and relative of many who perished, United States.
Arthur Graaff, son of decorated Dutch resistance member and nazi victim, The Netherlands.
Yael Kahn, daughter of survivors who escaped Nazi Germany, many relatives that perished, UK.
Pierre Stambul, son of French resistance fighters, father deported to Buchenwalk, grandparents disapeared in Bessarabia, France.
Georges Gumpel, son of a deportee who died at Melk, Austria (subcamp of Mauthausen), France.
Emma Kronberg, daughter of survivor Buchenwald, United States.
Hannah Schwarzschild, daughter of a refugee who escaped Nazi Germany after experiencing Kristallnacht, United States.
Rubin Kantorovich, son of a survivor, Canada.
Daniele Armaleo, son of German refugee, grandparents perished in Theresienstadt, United States.
Aminda Stern Baird, daughter of survivor, United States.
Ana Policzer, daughter of hidden child, granddaughter of victim, niece/grandniece of four victims and two survivors, Canada.
Sara Castaldo, daughter of survivors, United States.
Pablo Policzer, son of a survivor, Canada.
Gail Nestel, daughter of survivors who lost brothers, sisters, parents and cousins, Canada.
Elizabeth Heineman, daughter and niece of unaccompanied child refugees, granddaughter of survivors, great-granddaughter and grand-niece of victims, United States.
Lainie Magidsohn, daughter of child survivor and numerous other relatives from Czestochowa, Poland. Lives in Canada.
Doris Gelbman, daughter and granddaughter of survivors, granddaughter and niece of many who perished, United States.
Erna Lund, daughter of survivor, Norway.
Rayah Feldman, daughter of refugees, granddaughter and niece of victims and survivors, UK.
Hadas Rivera-Weiss, daughter of survivors from Hungary, mother Ruchel Weiss née Abramovich and father Shaya Weiss, United States.
Pedro Tabensky, son of survivor of the Budapest Ghetto, South Africa.
Allan Kolski Horwitz, son of a survivor; descendant of many, many victims, South Africa.
Monique Mojica, child of survivor, relative to many victims murdered in Auschwitz. Canada.
Mike Brecher, son of a Kindertransport survivor and grandson of two who did not survive. UK.
Nomi Yah Gardiner, daughter and granddaughter of survivors, relative of victims, United States.
Marianne van Leeuw Koplewicz, daughter of deported parents, grand-daughter and niece of victims, Belgium.
Alfred Gluecksmann, son of survivors of Germany, United States.
Smadar Carmon, daughter of survivor, Canada.
Lara Braitstein, daughter of a survivor, father was a hidden child in Belgium, most of his cousins, aunts, uncles, and one set of grandparents were all murdered, Canada.
Susan J Braverman, daughter of a survivor and granddaughter of victims, United States.
Peter Slezak, son and grandson, Australia.
Liz Brummer, daugher of survivors, Australia.
Anneke Deustch, daughter of a Viennese survivor, my aunts, uncles and grandfather perished in Treblinka and Auschwitz, Australia.
George Hudes, son and grandson of survivors from Vienna, great-grandson of victims who perished in Auschwitz, United States.
Sabena Winston, daughter of a Polish survivor, Australia.
Max Orden, son of survivor of Buchenwald, Australia.
Gail Soltan Payne, daugher and niece of survivors from Croatia, United States.
Gail Soltan Payne, daugher and niece of survivors from Croatia, United States.
Joeri Puissant, child and grandchild of survivors, grandmother's family was murdered, Belgium.


Grandchildren of survivors



Raphael Cohen, grandson of Jewish survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Emma Rubin, granddaughter of a survivor of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Alex Safron, grandson of a survivor of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Danielle Feris, grandchild of a Polish grandmother whose whole family died in the Nazi Holocaust, United States.
Jesse Strauss, grandson of Polish survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Anna Baltzer, granddaughter of survivors whose family members perished in Auschwitz (others were members of the Belgian Resistance), United States.
Abigail Harms, granddaughter of Holocaust survivor from Austria, Now lives in United States.
Tessa Strauss, granddaughter of Polish Jewish survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Caroline Picker, granddaughter of survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Amalle Dublon, grandchild and great-grandchild of survivors of the Nazi holocaust, United States.
Antonie Kaufmann Churg, 3rd cousin of Ann Frank and grand-daughter of NON-survivors, United States.
Aliza Shvarts, granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Linda Mamoun, granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Abby Okrent, granddaughter of survivors of the Auschwitz, Dachau, Stuttgart, and the Lodz Ghetto, United States.
Beth Bruch, grandchild of German Jews who fled to US and great-grandchild of Nazi holocaust survivor, United States.
Bob Wilson, grandson of a survivor, United States.
Katharine Wallerstein, granddaughter of survivors and relative of many who perished, United States.
Sylvia Finzi, granddaughter and niece of Holocaust victims murdered in Auschwitz, London.
Esteban Schmelz, grandson of KZ-Theresienstadt victim, Mexico City.
Françoise Basch, grand daughter of Victor and Ilona Basch murdered by the Gestapo and the French Milice, France.
Gabriel Alkon, grandson of Holocaust survivors, Untied States.
Nirit Ben-Ari, grandchild of Polish grandparents from both sides whose entire family was killed in the Nazi Holocaust, United States.
Heike Schotten, granddaughter of refugees from Nazi Germany who escaped the genocide, United States.
Ike af Carlstèn, grandson of survivor, Norway.
Elias Lazarus, grandson of Holocaust refugees from Dresden, United States and Australia.
Laura Mandelberg, granddaughter of Holocaust survivors, United States.
Josh Ruebner, grandson of Nazi Holocaust survivors, United States.
Shirley Feldman, granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Nuno Cesar Ferreira, grandson of survivor, Brazil.
Andrea Land, granddaugher of survivors who fled programs in Poland, all European relatives died in German and Polish concentration camps, United States.
Sarah Goldman, granddaughter of survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Baruch Wolski, grandson of survivors, Austria.
Frank Amahran, grandson of survivor, United States.
Eve Spangler, granddaughter of Holocaust NON-survivor, United States.
Gil Medovoy, grandchild of Fela Hornstein who lost her enitre family in Poland during the Nazi genocide, United States.
Michael Hoffman, grandson of survivors, rest of family killed in Poland during Holocaust, live in El Salvador.
Sarah Hogarth, granddaughter of a survivor whose entire family was killed at Auschwitz, United States.
Tibby Brooks, granddaughter, niece, and cousin of victims of Nazis in Ukraine. Lives in United States.
Dan Berger, grandson of survivor, United States.
Dani Baurer, granddaughter of Baruch Pollack, survivor of Auschwitz. Lives in United States.
Talia Baurer, granddaughter of a survivor, United States.
Evan Cofsky, grandson of survivor, UK.
Annie Sicherman, granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Anna Heyman, granddaughter of survivors, UK.
Maya Ober, granddaughter of survivor and relative of deceased in Teresienstadt and Auschwitz, Tel Aviv.
Anne Haan, granddaughter of Joseph Slagter, survivor of Auschwitz. Lives in The Netherlands.
Oliver Ginsberg, grandson of victim, Germany.
Mitchel Bollag, grandson of Stanislaus Eisner, who was living in Czechoslovakia before being sent to a concentration camp. United States.
Vivienne Porzsolt, granddaughter of victims of Nazi genocide, Australia.
Lisa Nessan, granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Kally Alexandrou, granddaughter of survivors, Australia.
Laura Ostrow, granddaughter of survivors, United States
Anette Jacobson, granddaughter of relatives killed, town of Kamen Kashirsk, Poland. Lives in United States.
Tamar Yaron (Teresa Werner), granddaughter and niece of victims of the Nazi genocide in Poland, Israel.
Antonio Roman-Alcalá, grandson of survivor, United States.
Jeremy Luban, grandson of survivor, United States.
Heather West, granddaughter of survivors and relative of other victims, United States.
Jeff Ethan Au Green, grandson of survivor who escaped from a Nazi work camp and hid in the Polish-Ukranian forest, United States.
Johanna Haan, daughter and granddaughter of victims in the Netherlands. Lives in the Netherlands.
Aron Ben Miriam, son of and nephew of survivors from Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Salzwedel, Lodz ghetto. Lives in United States.
Noa Shaindlinger, granddaughter of four holocaust survivors, Canada.
Merilyn Moos, granddaughter, cousin and niece murdered victims, UK.
Ruth Tenne, granddaughter and relative of those who perished in Warsaw Ghetto, London.
Craig Berman, grandson of Holocaust survivors, UK.
Nell Hirschmann-Levy, granddaughter of survivors from Germany. Lives in United States.
Osha Neumann, grandson of Gertrud Neumann who died in Theresienstadt. Lives in United States.
Georg Frankl, Grandson of survivor Ernst-Immo Frankl who survived German work camp. Lives in Germany.
Julian Drix, grandson of two survivors from Poland, including survivor and escapee from liquidated Janowska concentration camp in Lwow, Poland. Lives in United States.
Katrina Mayer, grandson and relative of victims, UK.
Avigail Abarbanel, granddaughter of survivors, Scotland.
Denni Turp, granddaughter of Michael Prooth, survivor, UK.
Fenya Fischler, granddaughter of survivors, UK.
Yakira Teitel, granddaughter of German Jewish refugees, great-granddaughter of survivor, United States.
Susan Koppelman, granddaughter of survivor, United States
Hana Umeda, granddaughter of survivor, Warsaw.
Jordan Silverstein, grandson of two survivors, Canada.
Daniela Petuchowski, granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Aaron Lerner, grandson of survivors, United States.
Judith Bernstein, granddaughter of Holocaust victims in Auschwitz, Germany.
Samantha Wischnia, granddaughter and great niece of survivors from Poland, United States.
Elizabeth Wischnia, granddaughter and grand niece of three holocaust survivors, great aunt worked for Schindler, United States.
Daniel Waterman, grandson of survivor, The Netherlands.
Elana Baurer, granddaughter of survivor, United States.
Pablo Roman-Alcala, grandson of participant in the kindertransport and survivor, Germany.
Karine Abdel Malek, grandchild of survivor, Henri Waisman, Morocco.
Elana Baurer, granddaughter of survivor, United States.
Lillian Brown, granddaughter of survivor, United States.
Devin Cahn, grandson of survivors, United States.
Daniel Lévyne, grandson of a deportee, France.
Emilie Ferreira, granddaughter of survivors, Switzerland.
Chaim Neslen, grandchild of many victims and friend of many survivors, UK.
Ann Jungmann, granddaughter to three victims, UK.
Ellie Schling, granddaughter of a survivor, UK.
Danny Katch, grandson of a survivor, United States.
Karen Pomer, granddaughter of Henri B. van Leeuwen, member of Dutch resistance and survivor of Bergen Belsen, United States.
Gilda Mitchell Katz, granddaughter of survivors, uncle and aunt killed In Dombrova, Canada.
Dana Newfield, granddaughter of survivor and relative of many murdered, United States.
Ilana Guslits, granddaughter of two Polish survivors, Canada.
Gerald Coles-Kolsky, grandson of victims in Poland and France, United States.
Lesley Swain, granddaughter and cousin of survivors, UK.
Myera Waese, granddaughter of survivors of Bergen Belsen, Canada.
Ronni Seidman, grandchild of survivors. United States.
Mike Shatzkin, grandchild of survivors, some family members murdered and some who died in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. United States.
Nance Shatzkin, grandchild of survivors, some family members murdered and some who died in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. United States.
Karen Shatzkin, grandchild of survivors, some family members murdered and some who died in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. United States.
Myriam Burger, granddaughter of survivor. United States.
Andre Burger, grandson of survivor Myriam Cohn, great-grandson of Sylvia Cohn and great-nephew of Esther Lore Cohn, both murdered in Auschwitz, United States.
Sara Ayech, granddaughter of Gisela and Max Roth, survivors who lost many family members, UK.
Monika Vykoukal, granddaughter of survivor, France.
Patricia Reinheimer, grandaugther of survivors, Brazil.
Nancy Patchell, granddaughter of resistance fighters, grandfather was caught and died in a concentration camp, Canada.
Jaclyn Pryor, granddaughter of survivors from Czestochowa Ghetto, Poland; great-grandchild, niece, and cousin to many who perished, United States.
Steven Rosenthal, grandson of survivor, Chile.
Arturo Desimone, grandson of a survivor of the ghetto of Çzestochowa, The Netherlands.
Lazer Lederhendler, grandson of victims whose seven siblings also perished in the Warsaw Ghetto and Treblinka. Lives in Canada.
Poppy Kohner, granddaughter of survivor, Scotland.
Ben Young, grandson of survivor, UK.
Martin Weise, grandson of Mrs Frieda Schmidtke, survivor of Theresienstadt, UK.
Paul Blay, grandson of survivors saved by Schindler in Krakow, Poland. Lives in Australia.
Dinah Kohner, granddaughter of survivor, Sudentenland, New Zealand.
Amanda Reitzin, granddaughter of Polish survivor of Auschwitz, Australia.
Niclas Witton, grandparents and member of wider family perished, Australia.
Ron Witton, grandson of survivor, Australia.
Leah Grabelsky, granddaughter of Kindertransport survivor from Vienna, United States.
Ronnie Barkan, grandson of survivors from Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Majdanek camps. Now lives in Yafa, Palestine48/Israel.
Joseph Halevi, grandson of three victims, Australia.
Pembe Mutaf, granddaughter of an Auschwitz survivor, Canada.
Dr. Robert Stone, grandson of one who fled Nazi persecution, United States.
Lozh Pizdesh, granddaughter of survivor, France.


Great-grandchildren of survivors



Natalie Rothman, great granddaughter of Holocaust victims in Warsaw. Now lives in Canada.
Yotam Amit, great-grandson of Polish Jew who fled Poland, United States.
Daniel Boyarin, great grandson of victims of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Maria Luban, great-granddaughter of survivors of the Holocaust, United States.
Mimi Erlich, great-granddaughter of Holocaust victim, United States.
Olivia Kraus, great-grandaughter of victims, granddaughter and daughter of family that fled Austria and Czechoslovakia. Lives in United States.
Emily (Chisefsky) Alma, great granddaughter and great grandniece of victims in Bialystok, Poland, United States.
Inbal Amin, great-granddaughter of a mother and son that escaped and related to plenty that didn't, United States.
Matteo Luban, great-granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Saira Weiner, greatgranddaughter and niece of those murdered in the Holocaust, granddaughter of survivors, UK.
Andrea Isaak, great-granddaughter of survivor, Canada.
Alan Lott, great-grandson of a number of relatives lost, United States.
Sara Wines, great-granddaughter of a survivor and great-great granddaughter of victims, United States.
Kristen Baum Wolfe, great-granddaughter of survivors, United States.
Shelly Steinberg, great-granddaughter of German victims, murdered in Auschwitz, Tel Aviv.


Other relatives of survivors



Terri Ginsberg, niece of a survivor of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Nathan Pollack, relative of Holocaust survivors and victims, United States.
Marcy Winograd, relatives of victims, United States.
Rabbi Borukh Goldberg, relative of many victims, United States.
Martin Davidson, great-nephew of victims who lived in the Netherlands, Spain.
Miriam Pickens, relative of survivors, United States.
Hyman and Hazel Rochman, relatives of Holocaust victims, United States.
Rich Siegel, cousin of victims who were rounded up and shot in town square of Czestochowa, Poland. Lives in United States.
Ignacio Israel Cruz-Lara, relative of survivor, Mexico.
Debra Stuckgold, relative of survivors, United States.
Joel Kovel, relatives killed at Babi Yar, United States.
Carol Krauthamer Smith, niece of survivors of the Nazi genocide, United States.
Chandra Ahuva Hauptman, relatives from grandfather's family died in Lodz ghetto, one survivor cousin and many deceased from Auschwitz, United States.
Shelly Weiss, relative of Holocaust victims, United States.
Carol Sanders, niece and cousin of victims of Holocaust in Poland, United States.
Sandra Rosen, great-niece and cousin of survivors, United States.
Raquel Hiller, relative of victims in Poland. Now lives in Mexico.
Alex Kantrowitz, most of father's family murdered Nesvizh, Belarus 1941. Lives in United States.
Michael Steven Smith, many relatives were killed in Hungary. Lives in United States.
Linda Moore, relative of survivors and victims, United States.
Juliet VanEenwyk, niece and cousin of Hungarian survivors, United States.
Anya Achtenberg, grand niece, niece, cousin of victims tortured and murdered in Ukraine. Lives in United States.
Betsy Wolf-Graves, great niece of uncle who shot himself as he was about to be arrested by Nazis, United States.
Abecassis Pierre, grand-uncle died in concentration camp, France.
Robert Rosenthal, great-nephew and cousin of survivors from Poland. Lives in United States.
Régine Bohar, relative of victims sent to Auschwitz, Canada.
Denise Rickles, relative of survivors and victims in Poland. Lives in United States.
Louis Hirsch, relative of victims, United States.
Concepción Marcos, relative of victim, Spain.
George Sved, relative of victim, Spain.
Judith Berlowitz, relative of victims and survivors, United States.
Rebecca Sturgeon, descendant of Holocaust survivor from Amsterdam. Lives in UK.
Justin Levy, relative of victims and survivors, Ireland.
Sam Semoff, relative of survivors and victims, UK.
Leah Brown Klein, daughter-in-law of survivors Miki and Etu Fixler Klein, United States
Karen Malpede, spouse of hidden child who then fled Germany. Lives in United States
Michel Euvrard, husband of survivor, France.
Walter Ebmeyer, grandnephew of three Auschwitz victims and one survivor now living in Jerusalem, United States.
Garrett Wright, relative of victims and survivors, United States.
Lynne Lopez-Salzedo, descendant of three Auschwitz victims, United States.
Renee Leavy, 86 victims in my mother's family, United States.
Steven Kohn, 182 victims in my grandparents' families, United States.
Dorah Rosen Shuey, relative of many victims and 4 survivors, United States.
Carol Lipton, cousin of survivors, United States.
Catherine Bruckner, descendent of Czech Jewish victims of the holocaust, UK.
Susan Rae Goldstein, carrying the name of my great-aunt Rose Frankel, from Poland and murdered along with many other family members, Canada.
Jordan Elgrably, nephew of Marcelle Elgrably, killed in Auschwitz, United States.
Olivia M Hudis, relative of Auschwitz victims, United States.
Peter Finkelstein, relative of victims and survivors, Germany.
Colin Merrin, descendant of Polish and Belarusian Jewish victims, UK.
Howard Swerdloff, most of my family died in the Shoah, United States.
Margarita E Freund, descendant of Breslau and Ukrainian Jewish victims, United States.
Marsha Goldberg, relative of victims in Poland, United States.
Michael Rosen, father's two uncles died in Auschwitz, UK.
Susan L. Lourenco, relative of victims,killed in Theresienstadt, Auschwitz. Now lives in Germany.
Shirley Luban, niece of uncle, who perished, United States.
Jennifer Simon, great-great niece of victims of Buchenwald and Theresienstadt, United States.
Piero Valabrega, relative of Italian Jews murdered in Auschwitz, Italy.
Ted Auerbach, relative of victims who died in the Holocaust, United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 10:49 AM

Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

The only massacre of civilians in Gaza was perpetrated by Hamas. All civilized people should condemn that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 11:04 AM

The only massacre of civilians in Gaza was perpetrated by Hamas.

Tell it to the Marines.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 11:04 AM

"The only massacre of civilians in Gaza was perpetrated by Hamas"
Yeah - sure it was Brucie - the reports were faked and te survivors are all liars
That's cleared theaira bit anyway and shown us who's what
Any more for the Skylark?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 11:36 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jun 15 - 10:41 AM

Now that Christmas can only be described as "takin' the piss" - whatever you do old son do not ever, repeat, ever complain about anyone's "cut-n-pastes" in the future.

Now which ones speak for and represent the Governments of democratic countries - that was the original contention wasn't it? That EU countries denounced Israel as a terrorist state guilty of war crimes? So far none have you have provided any evidence that substantiates that claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 11:51 AM

Yes -- Out of interest, Jim, what is the source of that statement with all those signatures? Who published it and where? You failed to provide any provenance. (This is not a hostile post, please note: simply a request for information).

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 11:59 AM

So Teribus,the condemnation of concentration camp survivors is not important as long as governments don't speak out.
What a fine fellow you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 12:22 PM

" Who published it and where?"
Haaretz published the statement and gave a link to the list of signatories.
Full text of article and link here - just so those who will, can ignore it publicly and obviously
Jim Carroll

HAARETZ
Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for 'Gaza massacre,' call for boycott
In response to Elie Wiesel advertisement comparing Hamas to Nazis, 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants publish New York Times ad accusing Israel of 'ongoing massacre of the Palestinian people.'
By Haaretz | Aug. 23, 2014 | 5:24 PM |   83

Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel.
According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis.
The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors and sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, accuses Wiesel of "abuse of history" in order to justify Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip:
"…we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."
The letter also blames the United States of aiding Israel in its Gaza operation, and the West in general of protecting Israel from condemnation.
"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads.
The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes.
Full text of letter:
"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.
"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"
For full list of the letter's signatories, click here

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 12:24 PM

Missed Terribus's bit
Wonderful - keep 'em comin'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 12:38 PM

Haaretz....well known for it's extremism.....the mark of a truly open and democratic society is one which allows all voices to be heard. Israel is one of those countries and should be celebrated for it, especially so because it is one of the only countries allowing such freedoms in the Middle East....bravo Israel!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 12:52 PM

GUEST,Derrick - 08 Jun 15 - 11:59 AM - You are being a pillock and you know it - go back and re-read my post - No hang on I will save you the bother - I will even highlight the important bit:

"Now which ones speak for and represent the Governments of democratic countries - that was the original contention wasn't it? That EU countries denounced Israel as a terrorist state guilty of war crimes? So far none have you have provided any evidence that substantiates that claim."

Now as they could not come up with any official statement from any Government of any EU Country that backs their original statement, they drag out this list of names that could have been made up by anyone - hence my F**kin' Question - which is perfectly reasonable.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 01:06 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 01:16 PM

The source has now been given for the quote.
So now you can tell me whether or not the views of the concentration camp victims are of any consequence or not.
Or does your argument about governments trump their condemnation

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 01:38 PM

"Now as they could not come up with any official statement from any Government of any EU Country that backs their original statement,"
Here we go - "extremism" (this from an Antisemitic who blames the crimes of Israel on "the Jews")
Haaretz is not well-known for it's extremism (I think you once accused Chomski, Eisenstein and other Jews of Antisemitism for criticising Israel - your favourite word, apparently)
And our own strutting little chocolate soldier, 'Terry the Trooper' would dismiss the opinions of survivors of the death camps and their relatives for the say so of states who sell arms to monsters and have conducted near-genocidal wars of their own against Third World impoverished nations to keep their S.U.V's on the road.
As far as supporting Israel - I am happy to say this as many times as this pair of clowns are prepared to use supposed support of Isreal as an excuse for ethnic cleansing:
ALL THE SUPPOSED SUPPORTERS ON KEITH'S LIST HAVE CONDEMNED ISRAEL OVER LAST YEAR'S ATROCITIES IN GAZA AND OVER ITS ONGOING USURPATION OF PALESTINIAN AND BEDOUIN TERRITORY -NO-ONE HAS DARED SUPPORT ISREAL OVER THIS - CAMERON HAS CONDEMNED IT AND OBAMA HAS SAID THAT IF ISRAEL DOES NOT CHANGE POLICY RADICALLY THEY CAN NO LONGER RELY ON AMERICA'S VETO TO KEEP IT OUT OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT
It's bad enough to use actual support of so-called democratic nations to appease war crimes, mass murder and State terrorism, but to invent that support really is stomach-heaving.
Give us a break lads - haven't had my dinner yet!!
Jim Carrtoll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 02:08 PM

People can condemn anything they want to - However if someone posts on a forum that Governments condemn something then it follows does it not that there has to be some sort of official statement that shows that - there are no statements official or otherwise from any EU Government that accuses Israel of being a "Terrorist State" or of being guilty of war crimes.

Condemnation by individuals is one thing, condemnation by Governments is another. I would think that on the scale of things the Government of any country would not be too fussed about the former, but would be aware that the latter could have serious consequences for them if not addressed.

My take on the Arab Israeli thing for sometime has been to just let them get on with it. They have had 67 years to sort this out and they have failed spectacularly to do so. Throughout that time one side has accepted all the refugees forced upon it and integrated them into the fabric of their nation, they have prospered and built a stable democracy enjoying a good standard of living. The other has imprisoned large sections of their own population, deliberately kept them in helpless poverty in order to use them as political pawns, they have continually attacked their neighbour using direct attacks and by proxy using various terrorist organisations to do their dirty work for them. They claim to the world that their aim is to establish a Two State solution that they themselves rejected 67 years ago, and even today they can produce no map showing what borders would be acceptable to their side.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 02:14 PM

"Haaretz (Hebrew: הארץ‎) (lit. "The Land [of Israel]", originally Ḥadashot Ha'aretz – Hebrew: חדשות הארץ‎, IPA: [χadaˈʃot haˈʔaʁets] – "News [of] the Land [of Israel]"[3]) is Israel's oldest daily newspaper. It was founded in 1918 and is now published in both Hebrew and English in Berliner format. The English edition is published and sold together with the International New York Times. Both Hebrew and English editions can be read on the Internet. In North America, it comes out as a weekly newspaper, combining articles from the Friday edition with a roundup from the rest of the week. An independent newspaper of record, some commentators state that it plays the role in Israel that The New York Times plays in the United States. It is known for its staunch left-liberal stance on domestic and foreign issues."
"there are no statements official or otherwise from any EU Government that accuses Israel of being a "Terrorist State" or of being guilty of war crimes"
The British Prime Minister attended the funeral ("to pay his respects") to the King of Saudi Arabia at the same time as a journalist was being given 1,000 lashes for speaking out of turn.
Would you wait for condemnation of cimes of the state from such a leader before making your own mind up, based on the known facts (not addressed to you Terrytoon - we already know where your loyalties lie)
You appear to come out of hiding too early
Ji Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 04:06 PM

Instead of claiming mythical support for Israel, why not defend some of the many links to Israel's atrocities - show their not atrocities and you might have made your point - plenty to choose from
Seizing land and driving an entire people out is the action of a terrorist state
The facilitating of the mass murder of 3,500 unarmed refugees is the action of a terrorist state
The deliberate targetting of civilians, the destruction of homes hospitals and shelters known to be occupied, are all actions of a terrorist state
The use of chemicals and anti-weapons on civilians is the action of a terrorist state
The usurpation of land from people who have occupied that land for generations, even millenia, in order to create a monotheist country is the action of a terrorist state.
The seizure of nomadic traditional tribal lands by force, using weapons such as high-powered hoses, chemical sprays and armed troops and soldiers is the action of a terrorist state
Driving those evicted onto untreated former rubbish dumps known to be toxic is the action of a terrorist state   
Establishing a blockade, depriving people of ready access to food, medicines and essential building and agricultural materials and holding it in place for nearly a decade is the action of a terrorist state.
Building a wall across lands which isolate farmers from their lands and workers from their places of work is the action of a terrorist state.
Attempting to set up an apartheid state is the action of a terrorist state.
Offering to share nuclear technology with Apartheid South Africa, a known human rights abuser, is the action of a terrorist state.
Israel has done all these things and more - they are widely reported on, proved beyond doubt and acknowledged - if it wasn't for the U.S. veto, Israel would have been in the International Criminal Courts more times han I've been into my local session.
Israel's behaviour is that of a terrorist state - even heads of its own security forces, Mossad, have described these actions as those of a terrorist state - one all but compared the actions of the most recent of the regimes with the Nazis.
If you wish to defen Isreal, these are the facts you need to tackle - not whether self-interested Governments who would have supported Attila the Hun if he had guaranteed them their oil supplies support it or not - an academic point anyway - virtually all national governments have criticised specific policies of Israel - none have supported them - this came from the same twisted mind that gave you "real historians" who sold books in real bookshops
He is now joined by a real-live 'holocaust survivor denier' who once called British soldiers habitual liars because they said World War One was an atrocity which they were tricked and forced into.
Jim Carroll
Couple of interesting articles on support being given to Israel:
America is the only country to support Israal, no matter what it does
Britain's support for Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 04:37 PM

Jim, those countries have warm relations with Israel and do not call it a terrorist state or a rogue state or accuse it of war crimes or massacres, as I have shown.

If you want to deny that fact, produce some quotes.

Musket, decent governments did not support all those HRC resolutions.
All the nastiest regimes on Earth combine to get them through.

My case is that decent democratic governments support Israel.
The fact that all those nasty states can get resolutions passed does not challenge that view.
I readily acknowledge that it happens all the time, but not with the support of decent democratic governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 04:45 PM

Haaretz....well known for it's extremism....

Is that supposed to be a joke, or is it just a delusion?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 05:26 PM

Haaretz, with a readership of around 5% of the news market in Israel, represents an extreme far left ideological viewpoint and just like the extreme far right these are minority positions espoused by idealogues at opposite ends of the spectrum. Of course idealogues have difficulty recognizing themselves as such so they see the extremist, anti-Israel positions taken by Haaretz writers, such as Gideon Levy, as representative of the mainstream when, in fact, they are reflective of only a tiny minority. Once again kudos to Israel for it's tolerance of all viewpoints, the mark of an open society.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 05:36 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, guest - its just a delusion.

You want extremists? Look no farther than Bibi.

I suppose Gideon Levy is an Anti-Semite, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 05:37 PM

kudos to Israel for it's tolerance of all viewpoints

And by the way, tell that to the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:30 PM

I wouldn't consider the "Palestinian" policy of having the future Palestinian state judenfrei a sign of tolerance.....would you?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:34 PM

Governments that are member organisations of The UN tend to support the way they vote Keith.

It's called corporacy. They can always vote against as in the case of USA and Israel.

By the way, under standing orders, sub committees of the general council with delegated authority are The UN in their deliberations so to say the many resolutions denouncing Israel do not come from The UN just shows that you are lying in order to impress. Unfortunately for your misinformation attempts, every branch secretary of any pigeon fanciers club knows Robert's Rules.

Unless of course you actually don't know how organisations work, in which case don't embarrass yourself when trying to impress grown ups eh?

I notice Obama has made a clear message with the latest Israeli Americans status. Hopefully it will eventually lead to stopping propping up the corrupt militaristic antagonists and force a proper peace path where Israelis and Palestinians are treated and protected equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:44 PM

stopping propping up the corrupt militaristic antagonists

So, the US is no longer giving financial aid to Gaza?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 09:16 PM

Palestinian human rights activist Dr. Bassem Eid:

"I have to tell Europeans that BDS is only motivated by antisemitism. I live in the West Bank, I met over 300 Palestinian workers who have been fired from the SodaStream factory, and I know exactly what the Palestinians are complaining about. The most important issues for the Palestinians right now are economic issues rather than political issues. The majority of Palestinians are seeking dignity rather than identity. Dignity will never be achieved without economic prosperity. If you ask any ordinary Palestinians today what are the three priorities they are seeking, they will say: a job, an education system, and a health care system. Nobody is talking about the wall, the settlements, or a Palestinian state. The BDS is damaging the reputation of the Palestinians. We the Palestinians are building the houses in the settlements. When Israel declares an expansion of houses in settlements, many Palestinians are very happy because this opens more and more jobs for us. Without income, dignity is not possible."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 10:16 PM

Thanks, guest, for that C&P about Dr. Eid, proving that there's someone about who is even more delusional than you are. I wouldn't have thought it possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 12:24 AM

He has an opinion that dIffers from yours , as do a number Of peoPle posting to this thread, that does not make them delusional.
There many here who could learn a great deal from being able appreciate that are neither smarter nor more entitled to an opinion than anyone else.
The person quoted in the previous post has great deal of insIght into this issue and should be heard by those are short on facts but big on some vague ideology.
Just my opinion !

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 02:18 AM

"Governments that are member organisations of The UN tend to support the way they vote Keith."

Rather clumsily and badly put Musktwat "Governments that are member organisations of The UN" - FFS!!! Goverments who are also members of organisations that are represented at the UN as "Permanent Observers" would have been clearer and more accurate.

Now the EU is such an organisation and last time I looked each member state of the EU was also a Member of the UN - yet you cannot find a single one that has declared Israel a terrorist state, guilty of war crimes.

Liked the "corporacy" thing - "corpocracy. Noun. (plural corpocracies) A corporate bureaucracy, characterized by ineffective management. A society where the interests of large corporations control economic and political decisions."

Basically two types of "Resolution" come out of the UN those that are binding from the Security Council and those that are non-binding from the General Assembly of the UN - In this it should be clearly understood that the words binding and non-binding refer to the UN and its member states a binding resolution directs and compels member states to act on them, non-binding resolutions mean that individual member states can act as they wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:37 AM

Or to put Terribulus's confusing waffle in English., Keith is wrong to seperate bodies set up under UN from UN.

Thank you.

For your words that is. Not the totally wrong inference you put on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:44 AM

"Jim, those countries have warm relations with Israel and do not call it a terrorist state or a rogue state or accuse it of war crimes or massacres, as I have shown."
You have a list of the acts carried out by the Israeli regime - respond to them and stop hiding behind your claim of political collusion by self interested Governments.
If they did what is claimed (and as far as I am concerned proven) that they did, they should be tried as war criminals and human rights abusers - instead, they are demanding that the International Criminal Court should be abolished, therefore making it impossible to try any war criminals of any shape or form.
You have the evidence - you have the opinions of those Jews who suffered at the hands of Nazism - instead, you opt for a political system that gave us Tony Blair, George Bush, Margaret Thatcher and Lyndon B Johnson.
You said you hasve nothing more to say, you are proving that to be the case - say something or keep your promise - you have nothing to offer here - you never really have (other than appeasement and denial).
"represents an extreme far left"
So let's get this straight - the Holocaust Survivor signatories are all extreme left-wingers - or are you saying that the letter is a fake?
A bit squalid, even for an extreme right-winger, don't you think?
How about a word from you on the listed crimes Corporal Terrytoon - you are usually not backward in coming forward in defending the indefensible with your 'Cock-o'-the-midden' bullying and blustering.
You have a list of the crimes Israel has long been accused of committing - are you going to respond to them or are you gong to hide behind the silence of States who poured burning petrol on to the heads of Vietnamese peasants for decades and committed the world to decades of war to protect oil supplies?
Let me guess !!!   
A few reminders to not respond to
Jim Carroll
Children
Civilians
refugees
Weapons
More weapons
Still more
Chemicals used on Nomadic peoples
Effects of setlements
Humiliation

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:47 AM

Ehmmmm Musktwat I do not believe that the UN had anything whatsoever to do with setting up the EU - All the UN did was to invite the intergovernmental organisation known as the EU to become Permanent Observers at the UN.

Now c'mon give us one member state of the EU who has declared Israel to be a terrorist state, guilty of war crimes - put up or shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:49 AM

Are any of you people going to respond to the fact that, if Israel gets its way the world will be left without an international court to try war criminals?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:24 AM

Jim,
political collusion by self interested Governments.

So you are now claiming that all our liberal democracies are part of a global conspiracy to conceal Israel's "crimes."

Would that be a Jewish conspiracy Jim?
Otherwise why would they.
Israel has no oil or strategic resources, and fewer people than London so not a great market.

No.
The reason they are silent about those "crimes" is because there are none.
Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel.
You people believe it all, but informed governments and sensible people do not.

Musket, all those anti Israel resolutions are from HRC, not SC or GA.
Decent governments do not vote for them.
They do not hold Israel to be guilty of all that shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:48 AM

Musket,
I notice Obama has made a clear message with the latest Israeli Americans status.

This from Time Mag. just 3 weeks ago,

"President Obama sought to reassure American Jews that he fully supports the state of Israel "

"The statements follow a wide-ranging interview published by The Atlantic on Thursday, in which President Obama stressed his love for the Jewish state of Israel,"

""I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium," he told Goldberg."
http://time.com/3894355/barack-obama-adas-israel-synagogue/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 06:20 AM

"So you are now claiming that all our liberal democracies are part of a global conspiracy to conceal Israel's "crimes.""
No I am not - Israel's crimes are unconsealable as they are carried out in public.
Most "decent" nations have condemned the crimes as they happen (yu have had a list which you ignore) - some have even voted on them in the United Nations, but those votes have been quashed by the U.N, veto.
"is because there are none."
Now there's your "Global conspiracy"
Where have all those you have been given (09 Jun 15 - 03:44 AM)and the thousands more reported on in the world press come from - all an International plot?
Are you insane?
Nice to see that you have joined the Antisemites in ascribing Israel's war crimes to The Jews
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 06:41 AM

"... a political system that gave us Tony Blair, George Bush, Margaret Thatcher and Lyndon B Johnson", fulminates the ever-egregious J Carroll, as if it were somehow self-evident that, because they happened to approve policies not to his oh-so-fastidious personal liking, they were beyond some sort of pale; rather than having, every single one of them, gained office in democratic elections carried out without corruption, fear or favour, in free states where one-citizen-one-vote is the undisputed norm.

All these know-it-alls who proclaim themselves democrats but loathe the inevitable results of democratic elections which fly in the face of their cherished but misguided leftie shibboleths --

ARNTCHA SICK OF THEM!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 07:16 AM

Yes yes yes very sick of them indeed !

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 07:47 AM

Having been elected, gives them no credence as far as honest or morality is concerned - especially als all of them have studiously ignored the views of those who elected them.
Are you really aligning yourself with those who describe you as being part of an Antisemitic plot (I believe you claim to be a critic of Israel, though sometimes it's hard to tell)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM

Jim, you have acknowledged that all those countries are "silent" on Israel's supposed crimes.

That is all I am claiming.
I also say that they are silent about the crimes because they do not believe in them.
Why else?

You people believe all the propaganda pumped out by Israel's enemies, but informed governments do not.
Nor do I.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:45 AM

"That is all I am claiming."
No it isn't Keith
You claim because they are silent they don't exist - stop changing your argument
You also claim nobody has criticised the crimes
Ift they don't believe them why have theey specifically criticised them
Mad as a ****** hatter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:06 AM

You claim because they are silent they don't exist - stop changing your argument

I do think that is the reason all those governments are silent on the supposed crimes.
I have just said that!
What is your explanation for the silence?

You also claim nobody has criticised the crimes
Ift they don't believe them why have theey specifically criticised them

They have not.
I have shown that for each of the countries.
Can you show where such a government accuses Israel of war crimes or massacres or of being a terrorist state?

If not, I think we are done

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM

He has an opinion that dIffers from yours.... that does not make them[sic] delusional.

Absolutely right, HiLo . The fact that his "opinion" is complete horseshit is what makes him delusional.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:40 AM

So why is his opinion horseshit and your not ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

They're called "facts", HiLo.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:56 AM

You never present facts greg. You rarely say anything constructive. So what facts are you referring to ? I am confused.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:01 AM

"What is your explanation for the silence?"
You've had it a dozen times - the samer reason Cameron attended a funeral while tjhe regime whose head he was "paying respect to" were handing out 1,000 lashes to an outspoken journalist - political expediency, national self-interest.... any one of a dozen reasons
I know it's not in your nature to read what you have been given, but you have access to an excellent article on why America supports Israel - read it.
You have been examples of acts of terror, mass murder.... etc, by the Israeli regime - waht are they, lies, not crimes against humanity... what?
You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic" - does that include the comments of the Holocaust survivors?
You have no case, no never have had one and nor shall you.
Acts of terror make for a terrorist state, no matter who is silent abut them
It's just outside the scope of my lifetime that the British Govenment were silent about what was happening in Nazi Germany - remember the "Peace in our time" piece of paper?
Does that man what was happening n Germany wasn't happening?
Don't be stupid
You are hiding behind politicians in the way Brucie and his ilk are hiding behind the Jewish people
How do you square your inhuman behaviour with your Christianity?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:23 AM

You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic"

No I have not, but there is antisemitism in the world and especially in the Middle East. Much anti-Israel propaganda originates there.
You don't have to believe it all without question Jim!

Those decent countries may be critical of actual, real issues like the settlements, but they have nothing to say about war crimes and massacres, and they treat Israel as another liberal democracy which it is, and not a terrorist or rogue state.

Cameron attended a funeral while tjhe regime whose head he was "paying respect to" were handing out 1,000 lashes to an outspoken journalist - political expediency, national self-interest....

Heads of state attend each others funerals.
That is the custom, and Saudi is rich in oil.

There is no self interest in keeping silent about Israeli crimes if there really were any.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:49 AM

"No I have not"
"The reason they are silent about those "crimes" is because there are none.
Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel."
Yes you have - don't you even bother reading what you write yourself?
You have been asked two direct questions - "what are they, lies, not crimes against humanity... what?"
"You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic" - does that include the comments of the Holocaust survivors?"
You have answered neither of them, which is answer enough for me
Thanks for the opportunity of letting me help you display your dishonesty and inhumanity yet again
You have nce again shown yourself for what you really are - al helps for future reference.
Keep on appeasing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 10:50 AM

Disgusting: when called out on the fact that UNRWA teachers who have explicitly made antisemitic statements and denied the Holocaust. In response, the UNRWA Chief refused to commit to teaching Palestinians about antisemitism.

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 12:35 PM

"You have described attacks on Israel as "Antisemitic"

Again, no I have not.
Some certainly are, but by no means all.

Liberal, democratic governments do not accuse Israel of massacres or war crimes, and never describe it as a terrorist or rogue state.

Do you deny that?
If so provide evidence of them doing it
That is my case.

I also claim that the reason they do not say it is because they know it is false.
Just propaganda.

Unless you can produce something, we are done here Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:02 PM

"Disgusting: when called out on the fact that UNRWA teachers who have explicitly made antisemitic statement"
No they did have not - they referred to the "Judifcation of Jerusalem" - which is exactly what the Israeli regime is doing - driving out all Arabs from the territory (their rightful home) and replacing them with Jewish settlers .
This is being carried out in the name of the Jewish people and is being condemned by many Jews - 'Jews for Justice' 'Rabbis for Peace have both condemned the expansionism being carried out by the Israelis
Many Jews have described what is happening in Jerusalem and elsewhere as 'Apartheid'
Accusations of 'Antisemitism' are now the knee-jerk recations to any criticism of Israel - you are living proof of that in describing an Israeli paper as such
Over 350 Holocaust survivors have condemned Israeli expansionism - THE DRIVING OUT OF NON-JEWS TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS
The same accusations have been made in the United Nations.
Jews for Justice
A Zionist Jew for Justice
"The US government tries to negotiate a peace agreement while favoring one side. Israel establishes more 'facts on the ground.' It is up to all of us to work for real peace with justice, not piece talks with settlements."
Jewish Voice for Peace
Now piss off with your squalid Antisemitic accusations of Antisemitism - you insult the Jewish people with your behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:02 PM

What is Terribulus going on about? UN setting up EU?

Weird bugger.

Keith meanwhile conveniently finds an old story about Obama when I mentioned where the U.S. Courts have sided with him in refusing to recognise Israel as the birthplace of US citizens born in Jerusalem.

A small point but according to eminent, alive, consensus attracting commentators, a huge political message to The Israeli government. Obviously, in the words of Keith, they all agree with me. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:23 PM

"Again, no I have not."
Yes you have and you've just been given it - one more time -
"The reason they are silent about those "crimes" is because there are none.
Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel."
You are insane, aren't you? - get help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 02:13 PM

Jim,
"Just propaganda from antisemites and other enemies of Israel."

You see?
I have never claimed that all the attacks are from anti-semites, but some are.
Deny that?

Musket,
Keith meanwhile conveniently finds an old story about Obama

Not old.
Only about 3 weeks old.
How old was your story Musket?

Here is mine again,
http://time.com/3894355/barack-obama-adas-israel-synagogue/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 02:32 PM

Musket's story was the overthrow today of the law allowing people born in Jerusalem to put Israel on their passport as birthplace.

That law has never been enforced for the thirteen years since it was passed, and Bush objected to it too.

Not a dramatic shift in the president's policy then.

This from Time Mag. just 3 weeks ago,

"President Obama sought to reassure American Jews that he fully supports the state of Israel "

"The statements follow a wide-ranging interview published by The Atlantic on Thursday, in which President Obama stressed his love for the Jewish state of Israel,"

""I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium," he told Goldberg."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:04 PM

You included Antisemites - stop being dishonest
Have you no self respect?
Now - a response to all those links if you don't mind. instead of pretanding you haven't been given them
All the 'decent countries' you have named have attacked Israel's murderous and expansionist behaviour including Obama
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:08 PM

You never present facts greg.

No need to on this thread, HiLo - Jim, Dave, Derrick et. al. are doing just fine without my help.

NEVER present facts? - untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:51 PM

""I want Israel, in the same way that I want the United States, to embody the Judeo-Christian and, ultimately then, what I believe are human or universal values that have led to progress over a millennium," he told Goldberg."

You see, Keith, this is just an aspirational statement. He wants it. He hasn't got it. You appear to imply that it's already been achieved. It hasn't, and Barack Obama knows it hasn't. He has done a little distancing from Israel's recent depradations, but he knows he can't go too far. There are powerful and dark forces in America, the land of the free, sharpening their teeth behind his back. Come along, dear Guest, and give us all a laugh by telling us that the US pro-Israel lobby are just a bunch of fluffy bunnies.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 04:30 PM

DeprEdations. I only half-corrected an incorrect autocorrect that had "helpfully" given me "degradations". Oh what fun I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:24 AM

All the 'decent countries' you have named have attacked Israel's murderous and expansionist behaviour including Obama

If you mean the settlements, yes they have been criticised.
If Obama or any liberal democratic government has attacked Israel for "massacres" or "war crimes" then give a link and a quote.

I gave links and quotes to show that they do not.
Want to see them again?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:40 AM

The point is, Keith, not whether other countries with vested interests have ever criticised the massacres or war crimes but whether the massacres or war crimes happened. That's what you need to confront. You could start with the refugee camp massacres in 1982. Try to stop for a minute relying on what other people have or haven't said, which is all about them and nothing else, confront the evidence for yourself in an honest way and stop letting Obama, etc., who always have to watch their backs, run your brain for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:59 AM

The point is, Keith, not whether other countries with vested interests have ever criticised the massacres or war crimes but whether the massacres or war crimes happened.

Exactly.
If they had happened, no vested interest would stop Canada and similar free and liberal countries attacking them for it.
I regard the absence of any such condemnations from decent governments as the strongest evidence that they did not.

re Sabra and Shatilla now over thirty years ago.
There were a number of events in those camps that could be construed as a massacre.
None was committed by Israelis and one was stopped by them.

There are Palestinian refugees being killed and allowed to die in their camps in Syria right now as I type.
The numbers involved utterly dwarf any loss of life in the Lebanese camps all those decades ago.
Where is the outrage?
Why do you only wave shrouds when you think you can frame Israel?

We all know each others views on this.
Why start it again?

Does any liberal democratic government accuse Israel of any massacre or war crime?
No.
That is because informed governments do not swallow without question all the propaganda and lies from Israel's enemies and anti-semitic groups in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:07 AM

Guardian 9 weeks ago,

For more than 50 years, Yarmouk refugee camp was used as a showpiece of Syrian support for the Palestinian cause.

"Now, after three years of war and siege, jihadists of the Islamic State (Isis) stalk its ruins, the regime bombs the buildings that still stand and the few remaining residents must choose between abject misery if they stay and likely death if they flee."

"The Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) has maintained a low profile throughout the siege, which has repeatedly been described by the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) as an atrocity. Throughout the past two years, the UN body has only been able to secure piecemeal access to starving residents, some of whom have died from hunger and thirst.

"The violence that began in Yarmouk on 9 April is not just continuing, it has intensified," said UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness. "Yarmouk is at the lower reaches of hell. It must not be allowed to descend further.""

"A Palestinian academic from Yarmouk who visited the camp late last year said the PLO's overtures to the regime are part of an internal competition between Fatah, which dominates the PLO, and Hamas, which fell out with Assad after it declared its support for the original uprising.

"All of the Palestinian organisations have been unable to rescue the Palestinians," he said. "We need salvation. We are in the 21st century and Palestinians are dying of hunger."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:31 AM

"I regard the absence of any such condemnations from decent governments as the strongest evidence that they did not."
Wonder if you think that the fact that a blogger has just been sentenced to 1,000 lashes and ten years in a Saudia Arabian jail has elicited no protest from "decent countries" means that has it's all been invented - don't wonder really
The only evidence that you have offered in defence of Isreali atrocities is that "decent Governments' have not condemned it EVEN THOUGH THEY ALL HAVE how long are you going to keep up this nonsense?
Until the 7th Cavalry in th form of a bunch of "real historians" and "experts" come to your rescue, no doubt - not going to happen
You have had the example of Israeli atrocities and war crimes and you refuse even to comment on them, let alone deny they happened or justify them - they won't go away either.
"Sabra and Shatilla now over thirty years ago."
There is no moratorium on mass murder - the Isrealis were kidnapping and trying war criminals 60 years after the event, and they were right to do so.
Israel has never been tried for its part in the massacre -the American veto made sure of that.
Regarding yours and others use of 'Antisemitism as a defence for Israel atrocities (you have used it before by the way - on one of the threads on which you were defending the Sabra Shatila massacre, you asked whether I was attacking Israel because I dislikes Jews - maybe the moratorium has run out on that one)
People like yourself, wo use such a defence are implicating every single Jew on Earth in mass murder, war crimes, usurpation of land, use of chemical weapons.... and all the other crimes committed by Israel in the ame of the Jewish people
Antisemitism is the oldest form of hatred - it has been part of life for many, many centuries.
My family fought Antisemitism on the British Streets in the 1930s, some of them were punished by the state with fines and imprisonment for having done so.
Antisemitism is now on the rise again, and it is little wonder; to implicating Jews in Israeli war crimes by claiming that to criticise Israel is to be anti-Jewish is to paint a target on every Jew on the planet
Tese are not "Jewish" crimes, they are crimes of the Israeli regime.
Are you going to tell us that the several dozen or so examples of Israeli atrocities are fakes, or whether you believe they are justifed.
Come on, don't be shy, then you can com out from hiding behind non-existent "decent countries
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:35 AM

I for one do not deny that the other side have committed atrocities or been involved in vile activities. But you are using that like a bludgeon to deflect from the war crimes and other atrocities that the state of Israel has also been involved in. Your attitude is that we don't have to talk about Israel's misdeeds because you can demonstrate others' misdeeds. That is the tactic of the schoolyard, Keith, and it's doesn't work with grownups. As for the refugee camp massacres, which I note you are trying to minimise, Israeli forces did not do the killing but they prevented people from leaving the camp and illuminated the area in order to facilitate the slaughter by their close allies. Ariel Sharon was later forced to resign, having been found to be personally responsible for failing to prevent the massacre. "None was committed by Israelis" doesn't cut it in the light of those facts, does it, Keith? You may resort to a technical factoid but the context tells a different story, Keith, one that you'd prefer to shut your eyes and ears to.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:37 AM

Absurd conflict of singulars and plurals there, perpetrated by me there. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:40 AM

"Does any liberal democratic government accuse Israel of any massacre or war crime"
Nobody nation has ever disputed Israel's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre
When an independent enquiry found Israel guilty both in fact and by implication in the massacre, no "decet country" ever raised its voice against such an 'unjust' accusation - (except America - hardly "decent")
By your twisted logic, they all would have been up in arms.
Most Governments and every single human rights organisation condemned and is still condemning the massacres that took place last year
To pretend they aren't is a blatent lie.
You have been given the proof of those massacres and the protests from all the Govenments who protests - to continue to make these claims is simply to lie in the face of proven evidence - which is what you appear to be reduced to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:54 AM

I have no axe to grind in this argument. Maybe that is bad of me and I should but I cannot summon the enthusiasm. I would however like to point out the fallacy of lack of evidence being proof of something.

I have said it before, on other topics, but it is worth repeating in these circumstances. To quote from the article. "It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false." I shall not bring it up again on this thread unless asked to repeat or explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:19 AM

Come on then Jim tell us all about the so-called "Jenin" Massacre - the event that never happened - as it turned out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:00 AM

Jim, The Saudi's use of flogging is a despicable internal policy.
It is not a war crime or a massacre.
Such things are always condemned by all decent governments when they happen, and obviously are not condemned when they don't.

Steve,
Ariel Sharon was later forced to resign, having been found to be personally responsible for failing to prevent the massacre.

By the Israelis.
Yes.

Israeli forces did not do the killing but they prevented people from leaving the camp and illuminated the area in order to facilitate the slaughter by their close allies.

No.
They were unaware of the massacre (of Arabs by Arabs) at that time.

Jim,
Nobody nation has ever disputed Israel's part in the Sabra Shatila massacre

Of course it has been disputed Jim!

When an independent enquiry found Israel guilty both in fact and by implication in the massacre,

Do you mean the UN enquiry that found Israe "indirectly responsible" because they were the authority at the time of it.
Israel accepts that.

Most Governments ......
Quote me any decent government accusing Israel of any massacre or war crime.
That is the issue between us.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:02 AM

"Come on then Jim tell us all about the so-called "Jenin" Massacre - the event that never happened - as it turned out."
There was mass slaughter of civilians at Jenin - the numbers were exaggerated (as all sides incvariably do in wartime), but that in no way altered the fact that a large number of civilians were killed.
The Americans managed to save it from technically being called a 'massacre' - semantics - and nothing to do with the actual and deliberate massacres of the elderly, men women and children non-combatants by the Israeli army using sophisticated and, in some cases, illegal weapons.
Even after the Gaza massacres last year (which were little more than revenge killings to avenge the murder of the Israeli students), squalids like you and Keith, tried to justify them with semantics by claiming that some of the children slaughtered weren't technically children - how squalid can you get?
Now - are you going to respond to this with anuything other than bullying bluster, or will you do your old usual and do another runner
I await with bated breasts - so to speak!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:10 AM

but that in no way altered the fact that a large number of civilians were killed.

Not true.
Everyone was accounted for.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:12 AM

Even after the Gaza massacres

The only "massacres" that ever occurred in Gaza were perpetrated by Hamas. Why do you try to slander Israel with such lies? Is it because it is a Jewish state?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:13 AM

NY Times.

The United Nations issued a cautious report today dismissing as unsubstantiated Palestinian claims that 500 people were killed when Israeli forces invaded a refugee camp in the West Bank city of Jenin in April.

Stepping gingerly into a battle waged almost as fiercely in public relations as it was on the ground, the United Nations criticized both sides for putting Palestinian civilians at risk.

It suggested the Palestinian Authority was "inducing turmoil, chaos, and instability," and it criticized the Israeli Army for inflicting "severe hardships" on Palestinian civilians through the use of curfews and other measures.

The United Nations study supported previously published accounts that said 52 Palestinians were killed in the Jenin refugee camp, along with 23 Israeli soldiers. In one of the study's equivocal judgments, it reported that "up to half" of the Palestinian dead "may have been civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:14 AM

which were little more than revenge killings to avenge the murder of the Israeli students

More lies.

Hamas attacked Israel. Why did it do that?

You really are a Jew hater aren't you.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:17 AM

Two wrongs seem to include a right. If you are on the right.

I think Keith A of Hertford and Teribus should move to The USA and host a current affairs show on Fox. Their lack of grasp and understanding is breathtaking enough, but to parade it as a virtue?

I realise both contributors have dismissed me as this "Musket" character, but that seems to be the very least of their wrongful assertions. Cutting and pasting opinions found in tabloid newspapers is irrefutable fact apparently. I begin to see how tabloid media is surviving in this raw information rich world. If it fits with your agenda, it must be true. How awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:23 AM

I regard the absence of any such condemnations from decent governments as the strongest evidence that they did not.


Styill haven't looked up the Ignornce Fallacy, have you, Keith?

HINT:"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:25 AM

Their lack of grasp and understanding is breathtaking enough,

R Sole, the object of debate is to expose the lack of grasp and understanding in others, not to just claim it.

Why don't you, R Sole?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:30 AM

Greg dear, I tried to explain it to you before.
That fallacy does not apply here.

If Israel had really committed war crimes or massacres, all decent governments WOULD condemn them for it.

The absence of any such condemnation IS proof that those governments do not recognise any war crimes or massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:30 AM

Rather amused at your "didn't happen", by the way
The death toll was first claimed to be 500, but was later reduced to 200 - hardly nothing for a refugee camp, but in fact, the real death tol will never be known as the israeelis were gven permission to remove the bodies of the slaughtered before they were counted.
As I said - semaiantics
JENIN
"It is not a war crime or a massacre."
It is a human rights abuse deserving of international condemnation - as has happened when it has happeed in other countries - not a dickie bird because it happens in a country that has "warm, friendly relations" with Britain.
The same happened with Assad's Syria.
The world knew about the torture chambers and mass murders of the Government's opponents ten years before the Arab Spring riots broke out.
Assad had "warm, friendly relations with Britain, he and his wife were regular visitors to London and owned property there (and still do) and far from being condemned as a mass murderer, many of his victims were tortured by electronic equipment sold to the Assad regime.
Even on the streets of Homs, the snipers who were taken women and babies out with one bullet for a bet were possibly trained using sniper ammunition sold to Assad by Britain
We all know about the chemicals sold to hem by Britain which helped to create the massive stockpile of illegal weapons which he used on his opponents.
"Decent countries" my arse - you have a list of the atrocities committed by Israel - we watched the results of those massacres nightly lst year on television.
They have been condemned by Governments throughout the world - we don't need politicians to put a name to them - they are crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, mass murder....
We have the e#vidence of our eyes, and unless you can show uss that what we saw was faked - you have no case
Address the facts, not the actions of the appeasers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:34 AM

"Hamas attacked Israel. Why did it do that? "
Might have something to do with the fact that they are being ethnically cl;cleansed out of their homeland, doncha think?
"You really are a Jew hater aren't you."
Are you really claiming the "The Jews" are responsible for the Israeli massacres - Antisemitic prick!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:37 AM

The death toll was first claimed to be 500, but was later reduced to 200 - hardly nothing for a refugee camp, but in fact, the real death tol will never be known as the israeelis were gven permission to remove the bodies of the slaughtered before they were counted.

Not true.
The death toll was reduced to 50 Palestinians many of whom were fighters.
The Israelis were ambushed in the camp, so some civilian casualties were inevitable.

Every inhabitant was accounted for.
It is a lie that bodies were removed before they could be counted.

Enemies of Israel do tell lies about it.
Be a bit less credulous Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:37 AM

"There was mass slaughter of civilians at Jenin - the numbers were exaggerated (as all sides incvariably do in wartime), but that in no way altered the fact that a large number of civilians were killed."

Not so Jim according to every NGO and International Agency who looked into it:

"Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks ALL BUT ONE OF THE RESIDENTS WAS ACCOUNTED FOR." A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre," and a reporter for The Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:41 AM

Might have something to do with the fact that they are being ethnically cl;cleansed out of their homeland, doncha think?

Just more lies....your hatred oozes out of your pores.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:43 AM

"Amnesty Researcher Admits That Palestinian 'Eyewitnesses' Often Lie"

Donatella Rovera, an Amnesty field investigator, wrote an interesting article about the challenges of fact finding in war situations.

One of her main points is that eyewitnesses are often unreliable. For example:

In Gaza, Lebanon, Libya, Syria, and other places I interviewed civilians who described what they thought were artillery or bomb strikes being launched by far away government forces and striking near their homes – whereas in reality the loud bangs and tremors were caused by mortars or rockets being launched by opposition fighters from their positions nearby. For the untrained ear it is virtually impossible to distinguish between incoming and outgoing fire, and all the more so for those who find themselves close to the frontlines.

Another factor she mentions:

Even if they disregard it, investigators must be alert to the fact that disinformation and misinformation can contribute to shaping the perception of events, the narrative surrounding the events, and the behaviour of people who take it in good faith and internalize it, including victims, witnesses, and others potential sources.

Here Rovera is referring to lies that spread quickly and then become widely believed – including by "unbiased" NGOs – before anyone has a chance to investigate. How many times have we seen that?

She gives a specific example from Gaza:

Fear can lead victims and witnesses to withhold evidence or give deliberately erroneous accounts of incidents. In Gaza, I received partial or inaccurate information by relatives of civilians accidentally killed in accidental explosions or by rockets launched by Palestinian armed groups towards Israel that had malfunctioned and of civilians killed by Israeli strikes on nearby Palestinian armed groups' positions. When confronted with other evidence obtained separately, some said they feared reprisals by the armed groups.

Meaning that "eyewitnesses" will often claim that there was no terrorist activity in the area of an airstrike and Israel wantonly and indiscriminately killed people for no reason.

This gets wholly believed and parroted by the UN and other NGOs. The Goldstone Report has many such examples.

Unfortunately, in many cases the NGOs themselves are part of the problem. Rovera admits, a little elliptically:

Conflict situations create highly politicized and polarized environments, which may affect even individuals and organizations with a proven track record of credible and objective work. Players and interested parties go to extraordinary lengths to manipulate or manufacture "evidence"쳌 for both internal and external consumption.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/05/09/amnesty-researcher-admits-that-palestinian-eyewitnesses-often-lie/

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:45 AM

Original piece,
https://phap.org/thematic-notes/2014/april/challenges-monitoring-reporting-and-fact-finding-during-and-after-armed-co

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 08:55 AM

Not so Jim according to every NGO and International Agency who looked into it:

Oh Teribus don't disabuse him of the veil of lies with which he envelops himself in order to enable his hatred, that would deprive him of his purpose in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:03 AM

Nice to have such a troll on your side, Teribus. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:11 AM

Nice to have such a troll on your side, Teribus. :-)

Thus spake the troll :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:20 AM

More lies from haters disabused:

Sunday, May 31, 2015
Qatar compliments Israel for helping reconstruct Gaza, exposing NGO lies

Last month I noted a report written by many NGOs, including Oxfam and CARE International, that blamed Israel for the slow pace of Gaza reconstruction.

More recently Amnesty also blamed Israel (in a purportedly anti-Hamas report) saying that it needed to lift the blockade on Gaza to help reconstruction, implying that somehow Israeli restrictions were to blame for the slow pace.

I showed already in April that they were lying. Israel was not the bottleneck at all, but many countries that promised to fund the Gaza reconstruction - mostly Muslim countries - have been not paying their pledges.

Now, proof that Oxfam and Amnesty are falsely blaming Israel comes from an unlikely source - Qatar.

    Qatar continues to aid reconstruction efforts in the war-torn Gaza Strip as new projects start, says committee chief Muhammad al-Amadi.

    "The reconstruction process is progressing very well as construction material is being shipped to Gaza everyday without any obstacles," al-Amadi said to Ma'an, adding that contracts for new projects have been signed and bids for more projects will be made.

    Israel has approved all the Qatari-funded projects in the Gaza Strip, he said.

In March, Emadi admitted that most of the cement going to Gaza is being diverted to the black market, with homeowners selling cement meant to rebuild their homes. And even then he praised Israel's efforts in helping to rebuild Gaza.

Emadi's honesty about Israel exposes the hundreds of Western-funded NGOs in Israel and the territories to be nothing more than a giant scam to raise money from, and spend money on behalf of, those who hate Israel.

Posted by Elder of Ziyon at 5:00 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:25 AM

If you were to squeeze all the hate out of Jim Carroll, there would not be enough left of him to fill and eyedropper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:28 AM

That fallacy does not apply here.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 09:37 AM

You are too hard on yourself Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM

If you were to squeeze all the hate out of Jim Carroll, there would not be enough left of him to fill and eyedropper.

Jim, unlike you, does not appear out of the blue, not having contributed to the discussion, making witless, trolling, gratuitous attacks on people, as you have just done. Not everything Jim says is going to suit everybody, and he'd rather tell it like it is without resort to clever tactics. But he happens to be one of the greatest humanitarians here. I assume that you are not of that ilk yourself. Why don't you just grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:04 AM

""Amnesty Researcher Admits That Palestinian 'Eyewitnesses' Often Lie""
All eyewitnesses lie - and make mistakes, in certain situations - Israelis, Palestinians, American and British troops......
That's why we rely on documented facts and common-sense to make up our minds.
You, one the other hand, deliberately lie and distort in order to make your pre-decided case.
"there was no massacre."
I'm not making a cse for it being a "massacre", I'm saying that an unacceptably large number of civilians were slaughtered - you, on the other hand, are makeing a case for those deaths being "nothing".
I rest my case - you have yet to make yours
"The death toll was reduced to 50 Palestinians many of whom were fighters"
As I said - the final death toll - civilian or fighters - will never be known.
The same is true of Sabra/Shatila and Israeli bulldozers were used to dig mass graves and later, the Israelis built a sorts stadium over them
" that would deprive him of his purpose in life."
I ask again
"Are you really claiming the "The Jews" are responsible for the Israeli massacres?"
We will have to assume that you remain anonymous (Brucie) because you are ashamed of your Antisemitism
"If you were to squeeze all the hate out of Jim Carroll,"
I have very little "hate" and that is reserved for those who abuse and murder people for gain or for their religion, or profit, - or simply for the fun of it.
I reserve a special corner of my "hate" for those who commit(or support) war crimes and hide behind the fate of a people who lost six million of their number to a regime with aims and actions not a millon miles from those they are appeasing - a racially/culturally/religiously "pure" State", to be exact - an Apartheid State.
Otherwise I love everybody (except Everton)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:19 AM

I'm right with you on the Everton thing, Jim. There are only two great teams in Liverpool, as we know - Liverpool FC and Liverpool reserves. Kudos to the true God of all scousers, Bill Shankly, for that one.

I'm a bit slow on the uptake at times, Jim. So this antisemitic troll is someone called "Bruce", is he? Has he ever posted under his proper name? Do you definitely know who he is? All I know about him is that he's a bloody coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:21 AM

Sabra/Shatila and Israeli bulldozers were used to dig mass graves and later,

Again not true.
Like the eye witness at Jenin who "saw" Israelis piling bodies into trucks and driving them away.
A lie to discredit them.

Like the group of nurses on the Marmara who "saw" Israelis throwing bodies into the sea.
A lie to discredit them.

No-one saw mass graves being dug.
It is another lie told to discredit the Israelis by people who hate them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: pdq
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 11:52 AM

Many Israeli Arabs are very good at propaganda...


"Back in March 2002, some 130 Israelis were murdered in Palestinian terror attacks culminating in the Passover massacre in a Netanya hotel, which killed 29. In reaction, Israel launched Operation Defensive Shield. As part of the campaign Israeli forces entered the Jenin refugee camp, a major nucleus of terrorist planning and operations.

With Israel finally fighting back militarily, the Palestinians launched a media counterattack. Most famously, Palestinian Authority spokesman Saeb Erekat announced to the world that Israeli forces had massacred "over 500 civilians" in Jenin -- a figure later rounded down to the 52 Palestinians, most of them armed combatants, who were actually killed. Twenty-three Israeli soldiers also died in the fighting -- a direct result of the fact that Israel refrained from bombing or shelling targets in the camp for fear of harming civilians.

Later investigations by human rights NGOs revealed -- even to the UN's satisfaction -- that there had been no massacre or wanton destruction in Jenin and that the Palestinian claims were baseless.

That, however, did not stop Palestinian filmmaker Muhammad Bakri from recycling the same mendacious claims and similar ones in his Jenin, Jenin -- a propaganda film that so enraged Israeli soldiers who were involved in the fighting that five of them, who are shown in still footage in the film, are now suing Bakri for libel. A film by Pierre Rehov, The Road to Jenin, also challenges Bakri's allegations and has been cited in the lawsuit.

Indeed, there was a shadow over Bakri's artistic detachment from the start. In August 2002 two of his cousins, Ibrahim and Yassin Bakri -- Israeli Arabs from the Galilee -- were arrested for involvement in a bus bombing that killed nine...."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 12:06 PM

Many Israeli Arabs are very good at propaganda...

There is a whole industry devoted to Palestinian propaganda aimed at Israel and Jews, it's called Pallywood....look it up.

Some of our posters are already very familiar with it, indeed it is the primary source of their information[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:16 PM

As you clearly haven't a clue how to use [sic], I suggest you refrain from using it, thereby avoiding making an even bigger fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:31 PM

Actually, there's a whole mighty industry devoted to pro-Israel propaganda. It's called the western media. There's also a powerful, wealthy and extremely undemocratic lobby group in the US that will convert any US politician who criticises the Israeli regime in anything other than the mildest terms to toast. Even in the UK the two main political parties contain thriving Friends Of Israel factions, very popular with MPs. The Tory version is particularly hard-line. Dirty business, this conflict thang.   Odd how you appear to expect the Palestinian side to be squeaky clean, yet utter not a word against the western world's massive pro-Israel drive. I think I've heard that called " hypocrisy".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:38 PM

"Many Israeli Arabs are very good at propaganda.."
Israel is equally as good at propaganda - hasn't it been able to blame decades of itswar crimes on 'The Jews' and its supporters are still doing so here.
When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians and the Palestinians are fighting back using every method at their disposal.
The Palestinians have a rag-tag, poorly trained and armed fighting force, while the Israelis are highly trained and armed with sophisticated light and heavy weaponry, which include drones, (now a major Israeli industry), chemicals, and any personnel missiles weapons, including flechette and dime missiles, all of which have been shown to have been used n civilians last year.
Their armoury includes nuclear weaponry.
It is little wonder that the Palestinians resort to terror tactics in defence of their rightful homeland - who wouldn't, given their situation - they'd be insane not to.
Doesn't make it particularly humanitarian, but without it, the Palestinians would have been long "driven into the desert" as the Zionist fanatics are demanding.
The Palestinians are doing nothing that the Israeli 'freedom fighters' were doing, it both the British and the Arabs, before and after the formation of the State of Israel and Palestinian 'terrorism' measures small to the massacres and persecution carried out by the Israelis down the years.
As far as casualty figures are concerned - these are the two totals of civilian casualties of the conflict between 1987 and 2011
Palestinian - 7978 (1620), Israeli 1503 (142) - those in brackets represent casualties under the age of 18.
According to the Israeli Human rights Group, B'Tselem, since September 2000 a total of 7,454 Palestinian and Israeli individuals were killed.
1,317 of the 6,371 Palestinians were minors, and at least 2,996 took no part in the fighting.
1,083 Israelis were killed, including 741 civilians. 124 of those killed were minors.[271]
Some discrepancy, huh?
Puts Keith's "Israel is fighting for its existence", in the dustbin where it truely belongs.
"There is a whole industry devoted to Palestinian propaganda aimed at Israel and Jews, it's called Pallywood."
Israel has many hundreds of such organisations dedicated to driving Palestinians out of their rightful home - you might start with Gatestone (look it up), then go on to 'Israelshield', 'Wild Olive (dedicated to attacking Christians who criticise Israel), U.N, Watcch (dedicated to proving that The United Nations is an Antisemitic organisation) NGO Monitor (which clamis that the Canadian Government is funding Anti-Israeli propaganda), The Israel Project (which claims that Amnesty International is Antisemitic)..... wheer do you stop?   
"Bruce",
Pretty sure he is the one who called himself "bearded Buce" some time back - he has the same Antisemitic vitriolic style along with a similar streak of illiteracy that marked is postings out in his former non-identity.
This troll has claimed not to be him, but I swear I heard a cock crowing three times outside the window when I read that.
"Everton"
"Hate" is probably too strong a word - pity is more appropriate perhaps!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:49 PM

A page of hysterical gibberish Jim.

If you want to discuss these issues, let's do it a point at a time and compare views calmly and rationally.

What is the single main point you wanted to make with your last post please?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:52 PM

It's called the western media. There's also a powerful, wealthy and extremely undemocratic lobby group

Ah yes, that old antisemitic canard raises it's ugly head again.

You might be interested in this exchange I came across on Facebook, at least they are honest about it unlike you and the others who think you're fooling anybody:

"Rik Little If I can I stay away from preloaded titles like Jew. It wastes too much time arguing with idiots. I say Zionists or AIPAC worshipers.
13 hrs

David Blomstrom The problem is that "Zionist" doesn't include Jewish bankers, the Jews who control the media, etc. A better term is actually "Jewish Mafia," but I still often use "Jews" simply because the Jewish Mafia is so big."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 01:55 PM

Perhaps I can help.
Early in that post you said,
When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians

When push comes to shove, the truth is that Arab Israelis have full citizenship and the rights that go with it.
No citizen can be "ethnically cleansed" out of Israel.

That is one less issue for you to worry about.
What else can I help with?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:02 PM

A page of hysterical gibberish Jim.

You've a stronger stomach than me if you read the crap he spews.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:02 PM

Hmmmm..... is playing the Antisemite Card one step above, or one step below, playing the Nazi card, I wonder?

I'll have to check with Mike Godwin.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM

Nonsensical post, Brucie-troll. Incomprehensible with a dash of illiteracy chucked in. Nice work. Mind if I call you Bruce? Prefer Brucie? So much more affectionate...:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:12 PM

If it is, in fact, Bearded Putz hiding behind the "guest" moniker, what you should call him can't be repeated in polite society.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 02:55 PM

"The Palestinians have a rag-tag, poorly trained and armed fighting force, while the Israelis are highly trained and armed with sophisticated light and heavy weaponry"

Through necessity Christmas old son, through necessity. It was the Jewish community of "Palestine" that had the rag tag assortment of poorly armed and poorly trained defence forces back in 1929, they got better in 1939, were far better trained and organised by 1948 and continued to hone their skills thereafter.

Now back in 1948 Christmas, those "Palestinian" Arabs you seem to care so much for were backed and prodded and goaded into action by neighbouring Arab states who put their entire armed forces at the disposal of the Arab cause aimed at driving the Jews into the sea - they lost in 1948, again in 1956, yet again spectacularly in 1967 and again in 1973. By this stage the "Palestinian" Arabs pals had had enough and two of the main allies settled a Treaty with Israel - land in exchange for Peace - both of those agreements have stood the test of time, but as the Arabs of Palestine continued their struggle egged on by the likes of Libya, Syria, Iraq and Iran they kept on losing but those allies and the terrorist groups they sponsored always proved to be capable and prepared to fight to the last drop of "Palestinian" Blood - NOTE that carefully Mr Carroll, GregF and Steve Shaw "Palestinian Blood NEVER their own. There then ensued one grizzly f**k up after another until now the Arabs of "Palestine find themselves to be: a rag-tag, poorly trained and armed fighting force"

After 67 years you would have thought that the eejits would have learned something - but no. They have received in aid more money than was given to the whole of Europe under the Marshall Aid Plan after the Second World War and they have managed to do or achieve absolutely nothing with it - apart that is from making their "leaders" extremely wealthy chaps, while those "leaders" keep their "people" in hopeless abject poverty.

Thousands of rockets, missiles and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israel, indiscriminately fired at the civilian population of southern Israel. Now as a citizen of the United Kingdom if so much as one rocket had been fired from foreign soil into the United Kingdom I would fully and reasonably expect my elected Government to take action to prevent any repetition using whatever means they had at their disposal - the Government of any country is after all charged with safeguarding the population and defending the sovereignty of the realm.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 03:51 PM

"Through necessity Christmas old son, through necessity"
Don't you talk down to anybody from the hole you have dug for yourself - it makes you look the twot you are.
The palestiniansd were not goaded into anything by neighboring Aab states - it was the Israeli massacres and the threat of losing their land taht gaklvanised them into action
"After 67 years you would have thought that the eejits would have learned something "
How racistand inhuman can yo get - they have lost their lands to a terrorist state - which you and your thick mate are supporttin, which, in their turn, have been bankrolled by some of the world's richest people and most powerful countries,
"Thousands of rockets, missiles and mortars have been fired from Gaza into Israel"
Go and count the casualties and compare them to the number of mainly civilian Palestinian dead - you have been given the figures.
"When push comes to shove, the truth is that Arab Israelis have full citizenship and the rights that go with it."
Yu have been given the Inequality Report - the "full rights" don't mean shit to a people who have eed ghettoiised in they own lands.
You have been hiven the everyday humiliation they receive at te hands of the self-proclaimed owners of the territory
Will mean even less when Israel succeeds in establishing an Apartheid state
"A page of hysterical gibberish Jim."
Then feel to prove it so point by point
Every singlle point I have made is verifiable or proven wrong by you - won't hold my breath
Pair of ultra-right morons
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM

If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently.

Are you prepared to have your points addressed Jim?
If so, you could start with your most serious one first.
What is it?
(You do want them addressed, don't you Jim?)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM

Through necessity Christmas old son, through necessity

Through the necessity of Israel's puppet-masters, the US of A, who, let's not forget, bankroll without question the Israeli military to the tune of three billion a year. I wonder why. Unfortunately, the puppet-masters have themselves become the puppets, thanks to the highly-successful endeavours of the pro-Israel lobby and their allies in the western media. I wonder what will happen when the oil becomes less attractive. I wonder whether the Israeli regime wonders that too. The yanks do have a habit of not bothering over-much about countries that can't help much with their oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:02 PM

Turn the record over, Keith. No-one's interested in your points-addressing, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:34 PM

Steve, you might be interested that a recent poll that shows tha a substantial majority of U.S. citizens - something on the order of 57% - agrees that the U.S should support Israel EVEN WHEN IT GOES AGAINST THE INTERESTS OF THE U.S. to do so.

We've raised up half a country of complete idiots.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 06:43 PM

"highly successful endeavours of the pro-Israel lobby and their allies in the western media."

Talking about turning the record over it seems you are unable to let go of the old antisemitic canard that Jews control governments and media. Let me remind you ONCE AGAIN that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a hoax, it was written by Russian antisemites for the exact purpose that you are demonstrating.

What about the Arab lobbies? No complaints against them. No Jews, no news right Stevie?

Muslim countries receive way more American largesse than the Jews. No complaints there Stevie boy?

Always only singling out Israel eh Stevie....why is that? (as if we don't know)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:24 PM

"If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently."
You have them all down in black and white, perfectly comprehensive - even for you.
Stop waffling Keith - they're all "A page of hysterical gibberish" - take your pick
Goes for Brucie the Troll and Colonel Blimp - feel free
'Stand not upon your going, but go' -as the Bard wrote.
What a bunch on inconsequential, dishonest and inhuman tossers.
"No Jews, no news right Stevie?"
Still painting targets on Jews Brucie?
I suggest that you look up the European definition of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:24 PM

"If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently."
You have them all down in black and white, perfectly comprehensive - even for you.
Stop waffling Keith - they're all "A page of hysterical gibberish" - take your pick
Goes for Brucie the Troll and Colonel Blimp - feel free
'Stand not upon your going, but go' -as the Bard wrote.
What a bunch on inconsequential, dishonest and inhuman tossers.
"No Jews, no news right Stevie?"
Still painting targets on Jews Brucie?
I suggest that you look up the European definition of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:24 PM

"If you really want your points addressed, post them one at a time, rationally and coherently."
You have them all down in black and white, perfectly comprehensive - even for you.
Stop waffling Keith - they're all "A page of hysterical gibberish" - take your pick
Goes for Brucie the Troll and Colonel Blimp - feel free
'Stand not upon your going, but go' -as the Bard wrote.
What a bunch on inconsequential, dishonest and inhuman tossers.
"No Jews, no news right Stevie?"
Still painting targets on Jews Brucie?
I suggest that you look up the European definition of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 15 - 07:37 PM

Well now. There are lots of "Muslim countries", Brucie-boy, several of which have been grossly interfered with by the West. But there is only the one Israel, size- and population-wise on a par with bonnie Scotland, unlike a good few of those "Muslim countries" which are a sight bigger in both those regards than most European countries. You might as well moan because London gets more public money than John O'Groats. Incidentally, it is not "the Jews" who get American largesse. It is the state of Israel, which contains not only millions of Arab citizens but also significant numbers of other people who are not Jewish. Perhaps you forgot that bit, or were, alternatively, indulging in the kind of wishful thinking typical of the Sharon/Bibi mindset. Finally, I have told you a dozen times that the pro-Israel lobby is by no means exclusively Jewish. There are many Christians and atheists involved as well. Which is why you will find, once you can clear your mind of your stupid prejudices, that I never refer to the "Jewish lobby", always to the pro-Israel lobby. Would that you put a bit more effort into being accurate, eh? You will not find one single reference in any post of mine to my claiming that "Jews control governments and media". You know why? Because I don't think that, that's why. As ever, feel free to not let facts get in the way of your prejudices. And, by the way, I've let you waste far too much of my time. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 04:02 AM

Steve,
No-one's interested in your points-addressing, really.

Not on your side obviously!
You only want the case of one side put.
Hardly a progressive liberal attitude Steve!

Jim,
OK let's look a bit closer at the first point you raised in your page of gibberish.
The ethnic cleansing out of Israel of Arab Israelis.

Where do they go?
How rapidly is their population declining?
How many have gone so far?
Is the answer not zero?

None have left and none are leaving.
The truth is that the population is rapidly expanding!

The claim " ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians and the Palestinians" is just another lie made up by people consumed with hatred for Israel, in this case YOU Jim.

Now, which point would you like addressed next Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 04:19 AM

Nice to see BraidedBeardedBruce wade in. Even nicer to see him not wishing to be associated with his own drivel.

To what I can see, there have to be a minimum number of dead bodies before Keith and Terribulus see a problem as an issue. And then, it's the "liberal" press counting them so they can be ignored.

Didn't this thread start as something to do with one of the colonies?
😎

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 05:14 AM

Keith
Ethnic cleansing is now recognised as a feature of Israeli policy, both from Jews and Arabs within Israel and from elswhere all over theworly in "decent" and indecent countries alike
The term "ethnic cleansing" was first applied to Israel by Israeli Jews protesting the treatment pf Palestinians
According to UNWRA figures, in 2000, there were 531 depopulated Palestinian villages and 5,248,185 Palestinian refugees scattered all over the world
Their report states that as of January 2010, there are 1,396,368 registered refugees in camps and 3,370,302 registered refugees not in camps.
There are no figures for those not registered.
The number of Palestinian refugees is the largest in the world of any national group.   
I have no intention of allowing you to bluff your way through this.
You have the documented facts - if you have any problem with them, present your own.
That goes for all the "page of gibberish"
Up to now, your sordid little trio have been only of value as good for a laugh - now your sickening abuse of humanity with your lies and distortions, has even taken that away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 05:32 AM

Ethnic cleansing in the Negev continues apace. Whole villages are razed because they are "unrecognised" (a nice Israeli regime euphemism). Mosques are bulldozed. 500 homes destroyed this year so far. What would you call this effort to clear out the Bedouin from the Negev, Keith? Gentle persuasion?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 05:51 AM

An Israeli organisation speaking out against Israeli human rights abuses -

http://www.btselem.org/

Some interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 07:28 AM

Jim stated that Arabs are being ethnically cleansed out of Israel.
That is a lie.
None are, or have been.

All countries have policies about where people can and can't live and settle within that country.
You can not even camp in this country.

Now, why do decent governments not condemn Israel for war crimes and massacres, or even accuse them of it.

Because it is made up bollocks, like the ethnic cleansing of Arabs out of Israel.
The Arab population is growing at double the rate of the Jews and they will be the majority in fifty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:07 AM

"None are, or have been"
>UNWRA figures 5,248,185
Stupid little man
Now about the rest of the "page of gibberish".....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:14 AM

B'Tselem is just a bunch of antisemites, dontcha know.....

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:16 AM

Those are the descendants of those displaced in 1948.
They should not still be refugees.
Two million German speakers were displaced in 1945.
All settled.
More Jews than Arabs were displaced in 1948.
All settled.
There is no ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel.
None are leaving Israel for a better life in Arab countries.
You made that up Jim.

Why do you need to do that if Israel is so evil?

Why does no decent government accuse Israel of massacres, war crimes or ethnic cleansing?
Because it is all bollocks made up by people you hate Israel.
Like you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:44 AM

Israel is far from perfect, but it has much to teach the Middle East – and, indeed, the world – when it comes to religious tolerance and promoting acceptance of LGBT people.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:48 AM

Iranian human rights activist, Shabnam Assadollahi, explains to VOI's Molly Livingstone why Israel is often called out in the media and the United Nations for violating human rights, when Iran and other Middle East countries are engaged in blatant human rights abuse. Shabnam spent 18 months in an Iranian jail as a 16-year-old. Shabnam and her family fled to Turkey and finally ended up in Canada, where she is committed, as a journalist and activist, to educating about the real Iran.

Listen here

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:56 AM

"It was abundantly clear that IDF commanders had gone beyond any mandates that international law requires to avoid civilian casualties," writes Stern. He reported how Dabla attorneys have to sign off on a "target card" for each airstrike on terror targets, with the cards enumerating all of the relevant data about the planned strike.

In contrast, the Hamas "doctrine manual" captured by the IDF in the Shejaiya neighborhood early last August documents how the terror group urges its fighters to embed themselves among civilians in hopes that the IDF will kill civilians.

"Hamas's playbook calls for helping to kill its own civilians, while the IDF's playbook goes to extreme​ - ​some say inappropriate​ - ​lengths to protect innocent life in war," reads the article.

Int'l Legal Experts Slam IDF - For Over-Warning Gazans

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:01 AM

Address the facts and figures given instead of lying and distorting
Jim Carroll

Israel's War on Palestine: It's Bad, but Is It 'Genocide'?
August 13, 2014
Charles Davis

"It's heartbreaking to see," said US President Barack Obama of the death and destruction his government has helped the state of Israel deliver to the people of Gaza. It's "really heartbreaking," said US Secretary of State John Kerry of the nearly 2,000 innocent people killed by the Israeli military with weapons provided by the US government. "The loss of children has been particularly heartbreaking," said Susan Rice, US Ambassador to the United Nations, of dead little boys and girls—more than 400 of them—being stacked on top of one another in a freezer meant for ice cream because Gaza's morgues are overflowing with corpses.
There are a lot of words that one could use to describe the collective punishment of a stateless people living in what a top United Nations official describes as an "open-air prison," but "heartbreaking" is perhaps the most inadequate, suggesting that there's a certain tragic inevitability to Israel's bombardments of Gaza, to which the only proper response is a shrug and a shake of the head. It's acceptable to lament Israel's killing of innocents, but the repeated bombing of UN schools packed with thousands of frightened civilians is, according to the harshest respectable critics, a strategic error—a case of "good intentions" paving the way to hell on Earth for Palestinians—not a reason to withdraw support for the settler-colonial project in Palestine or to "delegitimize" the idea of a state explicitly founded on ethnic supremacy.
Israel's brutality is, of course, tragic, and the killing of babies is never a good look, but it's more than just heartbreaking folly. "It is a moral outrage and a criminal act," according toUN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Widely viewed as an ally of the US and Israel, Ban nonetheless has labeled Israel's deliberate targeting of UN schools in Gaza a "gross violation of international humanitarian law."
Amnesty International has likewise accused Israel of committing "crimes against humanity" over its targeting of hospitals, ambulances, and first-responders, saying the state should be referred to the International Criminal Court for prosecution. And Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of "blatantly violating the laws of war," with the group documenting numerous instances in which Israeli soldiers went out of their way to shoot fleeing civilians. But no Western official has called the terrorizing of 1.8 million people living in Gaza an "act of terrorism," though it is openly intended to bring about political change and punish the people of Palestine for electing the wrong leaders. And while you'll hear the word at protests, the leading human rights organizations have refrained from calling it "genocide."
Defenders of Israel will say that's because it's the wrong word to use. Writing in the Jewish Daily Forward, New York attorney Inna Vernikov goes with Merriam-Webster in defining genocide as "the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group." That's inappropriate with respect to Gaza, she argues, because Israel isn't to blame for the killing—the Palestinians are. Absolutely, the "people of Gaza are under siege and are being denied basic rights to freedom, movement, education, and life," but Vernikov argues that it's their own fault: "Those rights are denied them by their own government, which they selected for themselves."
While "you made me hurt you" is a favorite of abusive spouses and nation-states, even dusty old international law—drafted by the world's most abusive powers—holds that innocent civilians may not be killed for the crime of voting the wrong way, though as with many other things criminalized by international law, that has of course happened, usually at the hand of the imperial powers (and de facto jurists).
Journalist Michael Wilner also believes it's wrong to use the "G-word" with respect to Gaza. "Genocide is what happens when a people are discriminated against, corralled, and led to slaughter," he writes in the Jerusalem Post, a paper published in the state of Israel—a state that bulldozes Palestinian houses while giving subsidized homes to American settlers of Jewish descent, ethnically cleansed 80 percent of the indigenous population upon its founding, imprisoned millions in militarily occupied ghettos, and just slaughtered one out of every 1,000 people living in Gaza. Wilner means to suggest what Israel has done isn't as bad as some other terrible things in the world, but a bad thing need not be the worst thing in the world in order to still be a bad thing.
"It's important to remember that you don't need millions of dead bodies and a Nazi industrial system of extermination to constitute genocide under the relevant convention,"writes Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy, a Washington-based media watchdog. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocidedefines "genocide" as inflicting on a group "conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part." As the very title of the treaty suggests, a genocide need not be anywhere near completed—the destruction need not be "in whole"—for genocidal behavior to merit the label. What matters is the motivation, not the body count.
"While conflict has many causes, genocidal conflict is identity-based," says the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide, an expert on such things. "These conflicts are fomented by discrimination," as well as "hate speech inciting violence."
Now, consider: Israel is a state that openly discriminates on the basis of identity, denying Palestinian refugees the ability to visit their old villages in what is now Israel while granting citizenship to anyone with a Jewish mother who wants it. Israel is a state where the deputy speaker of parliament openly calls for replacing the indigenous population of Gaza with Jewish settlers, and where a leading newspaper just published an article titled "When Genocide Is Permissible." It's the sort of place where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu feels comfortable calling the 20 percent of the population that isn't Jewish—the indigenous people who weren't pushed out—a "demographic threat" to apartheid, their continued reproduction posing a serious challenge to continued ethnic supremacy west of the Jordan River. So why are people afraid to use that word: "genocide"?
Amnesty International spokesperson Natalie Butz said that the language her group typically employs is "war crimes and crimes against humanity," which she said both sides in the conflict have committed (though with a wildy varying degree of success). She said that "we want the situtation referred to the International Criminal Court, which is the international institution with jurisdiction over war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide," but did not respond when asked why Amnesty doesn't refer to Israel's actions as "genocidal." Human Rights Watch was also reluctant to explain its linguistic decisions. Their press office would only say that the group "condemns Israel for committing war crimes in Gaza but does not refer to its actions as genocide," which I, of course, already knew because I asked them why they do that.
Not getting very far by asking the groups to explain themselves, I turned to Ali Abunimah, publisher of The Electronic Intifada, a news site devoted to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"The popular definition tends to make people automatically dismiss or diminish claims that anything short of Holocaust-scale extermination of human beings can be considered 'genocidal,'" said Abunimah, author of The Battle for Justice in Palestine. By using the word "genocide," some may simply be looking to avoid appearing insensitive, to avoid the appearance that they're equating an awful situation in Palestine with one of the worst crimes humanity has ever known, the genocidal killing of 6 million Jews.
Indeed, some might point out, and many people do, that the slaughter in Gaza isn't even the worst contemporary case of mass murder. Syria's civil war has left more than 100,000 people dead, with atrocities committed by both Bashar Assad and the rebels fighting against him. But that's a civil war being fought to preserve a regime's hold on power, not to eliminate ethnic minorities. It's horrific, but it's not genocide—it's a fight for power, not a fight to extinguish an ethnicity—and, crucially, there's no shortage of people willing to condemn what's happening there.
It takes no courage in the west to condemn the crimes of the Syrian government or, for that matter, the Islamic State. Israel, on the other hand, is supported by a super power that gives it a $3-billion-a-year allowance for weapons that it then uses to carry out war crimes. It has nuclear weapons. As journalist Max Blumenthal argues, Israel's not David but Goliath—and right now it acts with impunity.
It's not just the thousands of people—Palestinians—that the state of Israel has killed over the years in its regular assaults, dwarfing the handful killed by Hamas's rockets. Israel has, for decades, been carrying out what Israeli historian Ilan Pappé describes as an "incremental genocide," one that has since 1948 seen Palestinians steadily removed from their land, their homes destroyed, and their families forced into fenced-in refugee camps, for no reason other than that Palestinians were born to the wrong mothers.

"It's been going on for a long time, the killings, the incredibly awful conditions of life, the expulsions that have gone on [since 1947], when 700 or more villages in Palestine were destroyed, and in the expulsions that continued from that time until today," said Michael Ratner, president of the left-of-ACLU Center for Constitutional Rights, in an interview with the Real News. "It's correct and important to label it for what it is." And that label, he said, is "genocide."
It's in these types of situations that the supposedly civilized nations—the ones that go to war for petroleum, not to ethnically cleanse—are supposed to invoke their "responsibility to protect." In Libya, that meant dropping bombs from the safety of the sky and leaving it worse than it was before. No one wants that. Israel should not be bombed. But Israel can be prosecuted for being an apartheid state carrying out a slow genocide. Western governments can stop blocking legal actions aimed at providing consequences for genocidal behavior and stop giving Israel the weapons it uses to slaughter Palestinians.
At the very least, Israeli leaders should be as afraid to travel abroad as a Bashar al Assad or Dick Cheney, fearing that at any airport, at any time, somone could come up to them, slap on some handcuffs, and carry them off to a war crimes tribunal. But it's best not to wait for the political establishment to act. Indeed, it's all too clear that the United States, the country in the best position to protect the people being bombed by its client-state—which has a responsibility to do so—has no intention of protecting any Palestinians. It's up to the people, then, to make Israel a pariah, something that can be accomplished in part by calling its behavior what it is. There's a lot of war and evil in this world, but kicking people out of their homes and bombing them because of who they are—because they aren't the same ethnicity—has a specific name: "genocide."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM

UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:39 AM

The "Palestinian" Refugee Industry

Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are "people whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict". Not only that – UNRWA's definition encompasses also the descendants of the original refugees, as we can see from UNRWA's own website. There does not appear to be any basis for such a sweeping definition in the UN resolution which established UNWRA and it would appear that this definition was a later development. Once again, when it comes to the Israel-Arab conflict, the goalposts have been moved and just like the concepts of "genocide", "ethnic cleansing", "apartheid" and "democracy", so too the word "refugee" has been re-defined. "Palestinians" are the only group of refugees able to "bequeath" their refugee status to their descendants. Furthermore, "Palestinians" are the only group of refugees in the world to have a United Nations agency dedicated specifically and uniquely to helping them.

UNRWA has a staff of over 25,000 to deal with some 5 million "Palestine refugees". Of these, 99% are locally recruited "Palestinian" Arabs. No wonder it has become politicised! In contrast, UNHCR deals with all the other refugees in the world (about 33.9 million persons in 125 countries) with a staff of less than 8000! It seems clear that UNWRA has become a self-serving organisation, which has helped to perpetuate the "Palestinian refugee" problem rather than to solve it.


THE VIEW FROM THE PALACE

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:52 AM

Jim,
"UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185"

These refugees were not ethnically cleansed from Israel.
They are the descendants of those displaced by the creation of Israel in 1948, many voluntarily in the expectation of returning behind victorious Arab armies to become the beneficiaries of the newly deceased Jews' properties.

A greater number of Jews were displaced then, but they were quickly settled in the tiny and overcrowded sliver of land that is Israel.

Millions of ethnic Germans were displaced fro E.Europe in 1945, the greatest number of refugees ever created.
All quickly settled.

The Palestinian's Arab brothers refused to settle them or give them any citizenship rights so that they and their numerous descendants are still refugees well over half a century later.

No ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel.
You lied Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

The Palestinians' Arab brothers...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 10:00 AM

"the number of "Palestinian" refugees in the aftermath of the Israeli War of Independence was estimated by the UN as between 711,000 and 726,000. UNRWA itself puts the figure at some 750,000. At the same time, over 800,000 Jews fled Arab lands, most of them settling in the fledgeling State of Israel, which absorbed them with not one dollar of aid from the United Nations. Compare this to the Arab states which kept their "Palestinian" refugee population in refugee camps."

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 10:39 AM

"These refugees were not ethnically cleansed from Israel."
You asked where they were going - you have the answer
Another reminder
"Their report states that as of January 2010, there are 1,396,368 registered refugees in camps and 3,370,302 registered refugees not in camps."
You have where they are going, but no doubt, you will continue to ignore it
Even the Holocusrt survivors have described what is happening as "ethnic cleansing" - leaving you a 'Holocaust Survivor denier'
"You lied Jim."
You are incredibly stupid to behave the way you are in public
You have denied and ignored facts - press reports, film, world-wide opinion, and you have based your whole case on a liee - that Israel; has the support of "decent countries" for its behaviou - this, even though you have been presented with world-wide condemnation of them
You#r claim makes the U.S., Britain, members of the European Union.... "indecent countries - add to this list Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, Jews For Justice, Rabbis For Peace.... every single human rights organisation has condemned the Ethnic Cleansing that is taking placce
If the article above is correct, 'Genocide' might well be added to that charge, that's what Israel's behaviour borders on

"The United States today condemned Israeli plans for new settlements in the Palestinian territories as "provocative" and running directly opposite to moves Washington believes are helpful to peace and stability in the region."

"The settlements, which are illegal under international law, have been at the flashpoint of the six-month Palestinian intifada or uprising against the Israeli occupation that has killed almost 470 people, most of them Palestinians."

"The European Union has also expressed concern today over the Israeli plans and renewed its condemnation of the country's settlement policies in general."

"All settlement activities are illegal and constitute a major obstacle to peace," the Swedish EU presidency said in a press release.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/us-condemns-israeli-settlement-plans-1.379715

UN investigtor accuses Israel of Ethnic Cleansing

Israel's Ethnic Cleansing Haaretz

Images for Ethnic Cleansing

Ethnic clensing and Apartheid UN

IThe History of Ethnic Cleansing in Israel - Benny Morris and others

We are washing our hands of Ethnic Cleansing - Ireland

Call for ethnic cleansing - Israel's Deputy Speaker

Don't you fdare call me a liar when I am repeating what people around the world are saying
I think were done and dusted on this one
Want to try another item from my "page of gibberish"?

UNWRA refugee figures 5,248,185<'font>
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:09 AM

The UNRWA refugees are not evidence of ethnic cleansing, and they date from over sixty years ago.

YOU CLAIMED,

"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

THAT IS A LIE.
NONE ARE BEING CLEANSED OUT OF ISRAEL.
NONE ARE LEAVING.
THEIR NUMBERS IN ISRAEL ARE EXPLODING.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:19 AM

This really is like watching a train crash. I can see exactly where it is going and what will happen but I am gripped by a strange compulsion to watch. Probably makes me a very bad person :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 11:49 AM

""When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
Wonder why the world is saying that this is what is happening - all liars, no doubt.
You have had the evidence of Arabs being forced out, you have had the world analysis (even from "real" investigators who probably sell their books in "real" bookshops)
You have even been given evidence that this has always been the aim of Israel and the first mention of "cleansing" Israel of the Arabs was by the father of the state, David Ben Gurion - can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that

Some quotes
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized ....
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Can we take it that you don't intend to show us where I went wong in my "page of gibberish"?
Don' blameyou, to be honest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 02:44 PM

""When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
Wonder why the world is saying that this is what is happening - all liars, no doubt.

The world is NOT saying that is what is happening, because it is NOT HAPPENING!

No Israelis have become refugees for over sixty years, so you lied that people are being ethnically cleansed NOW.

No Arab is leaving Israel for any other country.
Israel would not stop them but they all want to stay.

If that is not true, and you have not lied, tell us who they are and where they have gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 03:06 PM

"The world is NOT saying that is what is happening, because it is NOT HAPPENING!"
Yes it is, and if you care to read down the quotes, you will see that ethnic cleansing hs been on the agenda since day one - if you can't see it, everybody else can.
You've also given the number of the refugees which have been driven out
You my wish to continue to make a fool of yourself - please do
It seems to be what you are best at.
Perhaps you might like to move on tho the massive discrepancy between Israeli and Palestinian casualties - this is as boring as it gets
Have a good day day now


"Israel has conducted bureaucratic warfare on Palestine since the 1993 Oslo accords, Buttu insisted, and has an "erase and replace" policy for Palestinians. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the residency status of 15,000 Palestinian Jerusalemites, including 106 last year. It's treating Palestinians as if they're immigrants to their own land, she lamented."
February 2015
Jim Carroll
Israel's gone way beyond Apartheid

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 03:21 PM

No Israeli has become a refugee for over half a century.
No decent government accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing, any more than they accuse it of war crimes or massacres.

No Arab is leaving Israel for any other country.
Israel would not stop them, but they all want to stay.

If that is not true, and you have not lied, tell us who they are and where they have gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 07:46 PM

"No Israeli has become a refugee for over half a century."
Gone beyond that you - your extreme display of mindless stupidity has blown any chance of you ever being taken seriously again
However, you have my gratitude.
your thick-headed repetition of your indefensible argument led me to digging deeper into bits of Israeli history I was somewhat vague on.
My family were always fim supporters of the State of Israel, though my father was often disturbed by the aggressive attitude towards the Arabs, who he believed, had as much right to their homeland as did the Jews - he put that down to opportunism - taking advantage of the superior military ability of the Israeli fighters.
He dierd before the outbreak of the Six Day War, and went to his grave still a firm supporter of The State of Israel.
I have always gone along with that, though I totally lost faith in their leaders as Israel's terrorism developed.
As it turns out, ethnic cleansing was part of the plan from the very beginning - Ben Gurion made that quite plain.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.   
Ben Gurion recognised that the Palestinians were the rightful owners of the territory and that the Israelis were the usurpers.
Even having recognised this, he instigated a programme of ethnic cleansing as far back as 1937:
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." WHATEVER COLOR YOU CHOOSE TO PAINT IT, THAT WAS A DECLARATION OF AN INTENTION TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE THE ARABS OUT OF THEIR NATIVE LANDS sixty eight years ago
So all your talk of the Palestinians being the aggressors and the Israeli only defending their rights is (as you are fond of saying) a load of bollocks
Of course the Jews have a right to a homeland, but unfortunately, Israeli extremist regimes have decided that it is someone else's homeland they have decided is theirs.
It is Israel who are the extremists and the Palestinians who are the defenders -that has been the case for decades.
You will almost certainly   ignore this, as you have ignored every other fact put up - doesn't matter - it isn't for your benefit.
My thanks for your help in filling in a gap in my ignorance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 15 - 08:26 PM

What have you to say about the quotes from all those Israeli leaders that Jim gave you, Keith? We have plenty of time, so, if you would, address them one at a time...

(Cue the noisy sounds of breath not bring held...)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 07:00 AM

Jim,
"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

No it is not.
You lied.
As soon as we get that straight we can move on to the next issue Steve.

What have you to say about the quotes from all those Israeli leaders that Jim gave you, Keith?

Not one has referred to ridding Israel of its Arab citizens, which they have no power to do even if they wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 08:06 AM

BDS Is about Hating Israel, Not Helping Palestinians
http://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/2015/06/bds-is-about-hating-israel-not-helping-palestinians/
June 11, 2015 | Mudar Zahran

Those intent on boycotting and delegitimizing the Jewish state only feign that they're motivated by concern for Palestinians, writes Mudar Zahran:

It seems the anti-Semites of today can easily claim "we love the Palestinians" instead of saying "we hate Jews." This method has been championed by the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement against Israel. BDS is dangerous for all of us and could severely harm the West, the Arabs in general, and the Palestinians in particular.

As a Jordanian-Palestinian, I have witnessed firsthand that most BDS movements do not care [about] the Palestinians. . . . I have personally approached several known BDS [organizations] asking them to boycott many Arab countries for the way they treat my people, and not one time did I find even an iota of interest. . . .

When weighing the facts on the ground, the call to boycott Israel is rather ridiculous. Israel is the largest employment provider for Palestinians. Almost every single friend or relative I know in the West Bank works for Israeli businesses, some even inside Israeli settlements. This by itself is evidence of how little BDS cares for Palestinians, because if Israeli businesses shut down because of BDS, how would the Palestinians make a living?

Let's not forget [that] the only Middle Eastern countries that allow Palestinians to work unconditionally are Israel and Saudi Arabia. All other countries [in the region] impose extreme conditions on the employment of Palestinians. . . . Still, you never hear the BDS movement even mentioning any of those countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 08:57 AM

Funny, but sad:

Undercover Reporter Reveals Irish Businesses Willing to Buy From Iran, North Korea While Refusing Israeli Products

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:05 AM

"June 10, 1967, marked the end of the Six Day War and the beginning of the radical left's hate affair with the Jewish State.

Although Israel neither welcomed nor wanted this conflict, the Left declared that Israel, not the invading Arabs, had been 'militaristic,' 'colonialistic,' and 'fascistic.'

Was Israel really that bad, or was the Left biased, twisting or ignoring inconvenient facts to fit a prepackaged verdict – and has been biased ever since?"

The Six Day War, and the Origin of the Left's Hatred for Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:31 AM

From last link,
"Gaza pales compared with Yarmouk, where Syrian soldiers and ISIS decapitators inflicted unspeakable horrors on Palestinian refugees – to no outcry from the Left. Israel was not involved in this catastrophe. If it had been, her critics would have gone ballistic."

"Chaos now envelops the larger Middle East, with no end in sight. A peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is more remote, more elusive, than ever before.

The radical left is hardly alone in failing to foresee the Arab Spring and its horrendous consequences. But it is accountable for providing vacuous and dishonest cheerleading when the Palestinians needed wise and honest counsel. Now, with the broader Middle East in turmoil, it might be too late."

"For nearly fifty years, the anti-Israel left has been committing crimes not just against Israel but against the Palestinians – and the entire peace process."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 09:54 AM

Hey Goofball, how many times ya gonna play the same old tired "antisemite" card? Don't you ever get tired of your own bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 11:25 AM

"You lied. "
If I lied, then so dd The Holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for peace, David Ben Gurion..... and all those who have condemned Israel for its behaviour towards the Palestinian Arabs
Ben Gurion actually states that their aim was to cleanse Palestine of "We must expel Arabs and take their places"
This goes from mildly irritating to worryingly bizarre - it's like talking to a parrot - words but no intelligence.
You have had the plan for Palestine clearly stated - an Arab Free country.
Deal with it or accept it - there is no alternative.
Opposing Israeli terrorism is not to be against the Jews and it is Antisemitic to suggest it is - Israel is not "the Jews" and some of its strongest opponents are Jewish.
Israel has betrayed the Jewish people, not it is blaming them for crimes committed by the Israeli regime.
In a way, Israel is like the former Soviet Union - a beautiful dream turned into a nightmare by falling into the wrong hands.
Comparing what happens elsewhere is totally immaterial - Israel, by its very actions, is a terrorist state.
Anybody wishing to prove otherwise has either to show that Israel didn't do what it has proved they did, or what they did is acceptable - anything else is crap.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 11:30 AM

"Not one has referred to ridding Israel of its Arab citizens"
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." "
David Ben Gurion - the father of Israel
You lied
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:26 PM

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
(Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, 1998.)

You lied again, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:29 PM

Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead.

It is also a lying misquote of what he really said.

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25.

You said, "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

Note PRESENT TENSE.
It is a lie.
The Israeli regime is not attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians.
You lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:46 PM

It is not a misquote. The stuff you quote was largely crossed out. Defenders of Ben Gurion claim that someone else did the crossing out much later. Sure. Ben Gurion made several other references to the need to expel Arabs, or that they could use the excuse of a war in which to do it. Do wiki, Keith, before you start calling people liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:53 PM

As for the present tense, well what about the expulsion of Bedouins from "unrecognised villages" in the Negev, bulldozing a mosque and their homes? Still happening as we sit here, Keith. How much more present tense do you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 01:59 PM

That quote was made in 1972.
It appeared in Porath, Yoram Bar, Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972.
It was never said by Sharon or any Israeli politician.

"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

Note PRESENT TENSE.
It is a lie.
The Israeli regime is not attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians.
You lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 02:03 PM

That quote was made in 1972 by Yoram Bar Porath.
It appeared in Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 02:25 PM

The lie about that quote originated with Max Blumenthal on Twitter a couple of years ago and has been repeated by Israel haters, of which Steve is the latest.
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2014/10/how_max_blumenthal_lies_about.html

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 03:19 PM

"Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead."
That was a statement from the founder of The State of Israel - he died in 1973 and is still revered by most Jewish people, though some are now questioning his wisdom and tactics
His statement has been reiterated by many Jewish leaders and his advice was being followeed from the birth of the Israeli state by Israeli "Freedom Fighters hurling hand grenades into the occupied homes of Palestinians The is ethnic cleansing
It wouldn't matter anyway - he made the statement he did - you have the quote - I don't have to tell lies to stupid people
Ben Gurion also said that conditions should be created to allow Arabs to leave of their own free will That is ethnic cleansing EVERY ONE OF THE THOUSANDS OF SETTLEMENT THAT HAS EVER BEEN CREATED BY DRIVING OUT THE LEGAL ARAB OCCUPANTS IN ORDER TO MAKE ROOM FOR JEWISH SETTLERS IS AN ACT OF ETHNIC CLEANSING
Ethnic cleansing by removing all Arabs and replacing them with was the aim of the founders of Israel - by peaceful means, war or terrorism - little example of the first, decades of them of the other two.
Israel is at present attempting to drive Palextinians out of their homes - go count the rapidly increasing number of illegal settlements - PRESENT TENSE.
"Israel was again accused of ethnic cleansing yesterday, which is not an uncommon concurrence in the Middle East, but this time, the accusation was made by a widely respected Jewish United Nations official. Prof. Richard Falk, a "rapporteur" for human rights violations in the Palestinian territories, charged that Israel's policy of continuing to build new settlements in the Occupied Territories and revoking residency permits for Palestinians living in Jerusalem bore "unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing."
Etnic Cleansing

From the US

BY ALL MEANS

The attitude of the Israel regime towards Arabs is comparable to that used by the Nazis of the Jews
HATE SPEECH

By the way - you deliberately took your David Ben Gurion quote out of context and, equally deliberately 'forgot' to either quote your source or link it
I suggest you real it in full:
BEN GURION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 03:30 PM

That was a statement from the founder of The State of Israel

No it was not.
He never said that.
I gave you what he really wrote.

If he had said that back before Israel even existed, it would still not justify your lie,
"When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

They are not and never have.
You lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:05 PM

Yes - did, and you have just been given it again in the Hate Speech
Why are you doing this?
You have not responded to one fact put up
You have ignored every single statement by Britain, by the U.S, and the U.N., by groups like Amnesty, Human rights Watch, by writers and speakers from all over the world - including Jews and particularly from Holocause survivors - all have condemned Israel's policy as Ethnic Cleansing and Apartheid.
You claim that I have lied - if so, they all lied, you moron....
You have been figures of over five million refugees and of 351 villages depopulated by Israeli action and you still deny what is now being reported weekly - Israel is carrying out a poliicy of Ethnic cleansing and has done since day one of the state being set up.
Now you edit statements to attempt to show that what was there in the first place wasn't
You are a religious fanatic defending extremist Zionism and you claim to be a Christion - you aren't even Jewish
You are insane, or you think the rest of us are
Eben the Bullying Brigadier and the Brucie the Troll have backed away from your argument.
GET HELP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:08 PM

Jim, that is a quote from before there was a state called Israel from someone long dead."

Ya see, Jim, its like them there dead historians who don't count-dead Israelis don't either.

They have to be LIVING Israelis who are also Eminent Israelis, whose works are in BOOKSTORES, who write for the tabloid press and whose views coincide with those of K Ah of H.

Understand it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:12 PM

Will someone make it stop? Please!

:-(

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:22 PM

Still in the inexorable grip of that strange compulsion, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:28 PM

If only Israelis didn't look so Western...

Just think Keith, if they were a few hundred miles South East, they'd be prone to grooming girls instead of kicking the fuck out of their neighbours eh?

Bigot

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:48 PM

Mindless abuse can not alter the fact that no Israeli citizens are being cleansed out of Israel and none ever have been.

It might get the thread closed and spare your humiliation though.

Jim's statement "When push comes to shove, the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" is false.

They are not and never have.
You lie.

The quotes attributed to Sharon and Ben Gurion are both shown to be faked.

The enemies of Israel make up lies and gullible lefties like you people believe it all without question.

If any Arabs have been cleansed out of Israel, who were they and where did they go?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 05:01 PM

"Everything that's wrong with the modern Left: the UK's National Union of Students rejects a motion condemning ISIS, yet passes a motion boycotting Israel href=http://t.co/a0oGGc52Go Forget saying Israel is worse than ISIS, anyone who even entertains the idea that they're equally bad, is frankly insane"- Maajid Nawaz

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 05:28 PM

"Understand it now?"
Shit - I forgot that
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:01 PM

Holocaust survivors letter
LIARS ALL

"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:06 PM

I hope the bizarro usual way of things here isn't lost on those not involved in this thread. Something started with "Chief Justice says Canada attempted 'cultural genocide' on aboriginals" turned, via the Usual Fuckwits, the Mudcat Fight Club, the Keith and Jim show (although that leaves a few people out) to be about the middle east, Jews & Arabs.

Stupid, insensitive, unable to focus on anything anybody else might want to discuss--why do you think anybody else wants to hear this shit... again?

Oh yeah--you don't care, because it's all about you...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:25 PM

Better than it being all about.. Err where was it again?

Oh yeah. Canada.



Canada. Hang on, don't help me. It'll come to me eventually...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 06:42 PM

Bloody stupid post, Jeri. Are you a moderator? I've never quite worked it out. If you are, that post is beneath you. Anyway, to the substantive.   Keith, for the third time, the attempted expulsion of the Bedouin from the Negev is ethnic cleansing by any definition you'd care to provide. And it is very much present tense. Five hundred homes destroyed this year alone. As for my being an Israel-hater, your frustration is badly showing. My many posts on this topic, should you care to explore instead of being wilfully stupid, would reveal to you that I support, reluctantly I admit, the continued existence of the state of Israel. I strongly support the Israeli people, who I believe have been serially hoodwinked by their leaders, and I hate the fact that they are subjected to the long-term insecurity that their stupid regimes manage to rain down on them. I've said these things in many a thread here until I'm blue in the face. The Israeli people have the same right as everyone else on the planet to expect peace, security and prosperity. Unlike you, I happen to think that that should also extend to Palestinians. That's the difference between us. So, basically Keith, you can sod off with your idiotic Steve-is-an-Israel-hater crap, if you don't mind. If you say stuff like that ever again I shall have to consider calling you a bloody idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:54 AM

No it is not Steve.
All countries have planning laws and move people who ignore them, but only within the country.
In tiny, tiny Israel they can't get moved far.
I have discussed resettlement before.
I accept it is an issue, but it is not this one.

Jim SPECIFICALLY claimed that the CURRENT REGIME is "attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians"

That is a serious accusation, BUT NO EVIDENCE AT ALL HAS BEEN PRODUCED!!

Decades old quotes that are fake anyway are not evidence.

Let's see evidence of people already cleansed out of Israel, or quotes from the current government or any other decent government about it.

You never will because the accusation is just another lie against Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:59 AM

Jeri, I do take your point, but it was Jim who raised the subject of Israel again.

My guilt is to be unable to resist challenging false propaganda, and once it is on the thread, that is reasonable I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:06 AM

And Jeri, some people are not interested in the issues, just in "winding people up."

Musket - PM
Date: 12 Jun 15 - 04:55 PM

Reight.

Back on after Mudcat bonking me out. (ironically the other two Muskets dont get that problem and have been winding people up nicely in the BS section I noticed.)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:31 AM

"Jim SPECIFICALLY claimed that the CURRENT REGIME is "attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians""
I claimed no such thing - I produced clip after clip of others saying it - including 360-odd Holocaust survivors
I have never claimed anything here that has not been backed up by masses of documented and reported evidence from people on the spot - you have produced nothing other than denial - not one scrap.
This has been your totally irrational defence of Israel terrorism from day one.
Your defence of the Sabra/Shatila massacre was "Isreal denies the did it".
Your support for the incursions, last years massacre, the evictions, the use of chemicals, the destruction of hospitals, schools homes... the mass eviction of the Palestinians fromtheir homes to make toom for settlers.... 'It can't be true, because the West does buiness with them'
The world is now faced with the fact that the regime is attempting to make Israel a 'Jews only' State - it transpires that this is has been the case from day one.
The only thing you have produced is a carefully selected sentence from a long article apparently suggesting that this is not the case.
You claim to have produces plenty of evidence - you have produced none, and you have totally ignored everything that has been produced by others.
If you are suggesting that I have invented the claim that Israel is ethnically cleansing the Arabs from Israel - you are lying.
Is that what you are claiming?
If you are claiming that I have invented the statements I have put up, you are lying
Is that what you are claiming?
You blustering friend has suggested that the Holocaust Survivors have no right to be believed because they have not been elected.
Is that what you are claiming, if not, why do you rfuse to respond to what they wrote - isn't their opinion worthy of comment?
If I am a liar, as you have repeatedly claimed
WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE LIED, WHAT HAVE I MADE UP?
The subject here is 'cultural genocide - that is what the holcaust Survivors have accused Israel of being part of - it fits in to this discussion as does any cultural genocide taking place in the world today.
The behavior of the Israel today towards the Palestinian Arabs is comparable to that which happened in in the United States, in Australia, in New Zealand..... in any place where the natives have been slaughtered and driven out to make room for settlers.
Jim Carroll

Worth reading

Ethnic cleansing a view from America

From a Jewish historian

Arabs aren't the only ones being persecuted

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

Jim, you have produced no evidence at all that "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

Put up one single quote referring to it (not decades old and not faked).
Identify one Arab citizen who is a refugee in another country.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:52 AM

Yes Keith. Winding you up. Winding up each and every person who pursues an agenda of abusing Mudcat to propagate lies and false premise designed to vilify people on the basis of their oppression.

Musket did mention a while back that he hadn't been on Mudcat for a short while for technical reasons. I assume you got it from his local folk club thread? Thinking of going are we? Why ever would you be checking up on him?

If you do go, try not to make it late September. I hope to be visiting it myself then and you might just look at me and think "where have I seen him before?" You are easily recognised by your cloven hoof and labels to differentiate your arse from your elbow.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:27 AM

You have had your evidence Keith - you have had your quotes - from the origins of the state to the present day
GUILTY AS CHARGED
You have refused to respond to a single one of my questions, which makes you every bit as guilty as Israel
And don't you ever call me, or anybody else on this forum a liar or you will be linked back to this thread each time you do.
You have no sense of decency and no self respect - you are a moral mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:47 AM

Jim "from the origins of the state" is irrelevant, and the quotes were fake anyway.

Have I misunderstood you?
Sorry if I have, but you did say,

"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

To me, that says that the current regime is attempting to remove Palestinians from the country.

I know they are not so I called you on it.
Is it all just a big misunderstanding?
If so, sorry, and let's move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:19 AM

Sadly, Greg, yes. Can't help it. Bit like picking scabs but more painful!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:09 AM

"is irrelevant, and the quotes were fake anyway."
No they weren't
"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."
Go read what the Israelis are doing
Stop trying to limit yur arguments - this is what you had#ve always done
YOU HAVE ALWAYS ATTEMPTED TO ABSOLVE ISRAEL OF EVER SINGLE CRIME THEY HAVE COMMITTED
Lie down - you're dead
And don't youever call me a liar again
You have lied and twisted your way right through this thrad from the beginning and are still doing so.
The only thing you have not done is to resort to your old stunt of postiing under a false name, and given time and opportunity, I have no doubt you would have done this as well
Go away - or answer the facts you have been presented with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:25 AM

Keith, you have failed to demonstrate that any of Jim's quotes were fakes. The only one that you wrestled with in detail had a section crossed out, quite possibly by Ben Gurion, that you used to try to denigrate Jim. The quote was no fake. If you can prove that Ben Gurion crossed it out by accident, well and good. You are relying on the word of a Ben Gurion supporter that someone else crossed it out. That does not amount to any sort of victory that entitles you to call anyone a liar, and certainly not to claim that the quote was faked. This is what you always do, Keith. It is a thoroughly disreputable and dishonest tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:07 AM

Actual Ben Gurion position on ethnic cleansing
""Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the
[Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that
if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve
their condition and not the contrary." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159)"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:22 AM

I. Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people, claiming that Jews, like any other nation, are entitled to a homeland. History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through a national homeland. Zionism recognizes that 'Jewishness' is defined by shared origin, religion, culture and history.

Israel's Law of Return grants automatic citizenship to Jews, but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries. Israel's policy is not unique; many other countries, including Germany, Greece, Ireland and Finland have special categories of people who are entitled to citizenship.

More than one million Muslim and Christian Arabs, Druze, Baha'is, Circassians and other ethnic groups also are represented in Israel's population. The presence in Israel of thousands of Jews from Ethiopia, Yemen and India is the best refutation of the calumny against Zionism. In a series of historic airlifts, labeled Operations Moses (1984), Joshua (1985) and Solomon (1991), Israel rescued more than 20,000 members of the ancient Ethiopian Jewish community.

Zionism does not discriminate against anyone. Israel's open and democratic character, and its scrupulous protection of the religious and political rights of Christians and Muslims, rebut the charge of exclusivity. Moreover, anyone—Jew or non-Jew, Israeli, American, or Chinese, black, white, or purple—can be a Zionist.

II. Jews have had a presence in the land of Israel for over 3,000 years. Most Jews were exiled from the area due to wars, and were spread out across Europe and North Africa and the Middle East. Jews began immigrating in large numbers back to the land of Israel in the 1800s and 1900s, legally purchasing land building communities. Before WWI, this land was under the control of the Ottoman Empire. With the fall of the Ottomans, the "Mandate of Palestine," which includes the land known by the Jewish people as the land of Israel was under the control of the British Empire. There was no Palestinian state, although there were Arabs who lived in the area at the same time. Both the British and the U.N. agreed that the Mandate of Palestine would be divided into two states, one Jewish state and one Arab state. The Jews accepted in 1948, while the Arabs rejected the offer of a state, and the state of Israel was born. Israel was not "stolen"; achieving statehood was a long process that required international approval and cooperation.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:31 AM

Thank you for making my point
"but non-Jews are also eligible to become citizens under naturalization procedures similar to those in other countries"
Arabs who have occupied the area for millenia have to apply to the Israeli regime to live there.
Couldn't be more clearly phrased
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:55 AM

Keith, you have failed to demonstrate that any of Jim's quotes were fakes

The quotes are by dead people. They don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:56 AM

"claiming that Jews, like any other nation..."

?????

"...while the Arabs rejected the offer of a state, and the state of Israel was born. Israel was not 'stolen'..."

Really? Then explain the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 09:03 AM

I. The Irish Times published this letter from the Israeli historian Benny Morris in response to the myth that "Israel ethnically cleansed the Arabs in 1948…" in February 21, 2008, an excerpt has been copied below:

"The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" – and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) – was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah – the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) – to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.

It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies – much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 09:23 AM

"Arabs who have occupied the area for millennia"
.,,.
They might have 'occupied' it; but have never had any sort of sovereign or governmental control over it since, at latest, the beginning of the Ottoman Empire. The stretch of country known as Palestine belonged to, & was governed by, the Turks, from the C15 until captured in 1917 by British troops under General Allenby. Britain set up a provisional administration, and the country was subsequently placed under a Mandate of the League Of Nations after WW1, with GB as the mandatory power. Various political manoeuvrings & activities occurred during the 20s 30s 40s, followed by the British withdrawal, with entirely adequate notice, following a partition suggested by the United Nations, which was accepted by the emergent state of Israel, but not by the Arab section of the population — many of whom left their homes at the insistence of the surrounding Arab nations of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Transjordan, to allow these to invade and 'drive Israel into the sea' immediately after the declaration of the State, with promise that they could return as soon as this was accomplished. But it wasn't; so the departed Arabs found themselves in refugee camps — in which, to the shame of the entire Arab world, many of them still languish, in Syria etc, nearly 70 years later, while Israel has absorbed countless immigrants during that period.

The fact that the conduct of Israeli governments during the intervening period has been, as I never tire of saying, an acute disappointment, to Einstein and others, including me, does not invalidate the accuracy of the above facts.

So what, precisely, Jim, do you mean by this emotive assertion about this "millennia-long" Arab occupation? And, assuming, just for the sake of argument, such to have existed in any viable form in the circumstances I have rubricated,, how do you suggest that it might be restored at this time of day?

Just asking -

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 09:24 AM

Would that be the same Benny Morris that was faking Ben Gurion's quote? Don't mention it to Keith, Guest! :-)

Incidentally, I note that you have no space to mention the Zionist terrorist gangs that were active in the period up to 1948. Fluffy bunnies, were they? Especially the ones who became such integral parts of the Israeli establishment after statehood? And don't mention Tzipi Livni's dad!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 11:08 AM

What Morris claimed doesn't hold water in the light of actual events, but even if he was partly right, what he was describing was apartheid - a land divided into Arab and Jews, with the overall say in the hands of the latter.   
Gaza is literally a ghetto, surrounded by the same security measures as were those in Warsaw and Vilnus.
Arabs leaving the area for, say work,, lose their citizenship if they fail to return within a set period.
Recently, an attempt has been made to build a new town for better-off Palestinians - the work was constantly sabotaged by having water and electricity supplies cut off and by stone-throwing settlers.
Following the last two invasions of Gaza, the demand that water and electricity supplies should be terminated and the occupants be "driven into the desert" or into neighbouring Arab countries has become a redular mantra of politicians and Israels in general..
Arab residents are constantly being evicted to make room for setlers, who are left with te insurmountable problem of finding new homes.
The victims of last years bloodbath have not begun to sort out the problems caused by the mass destruction of homes, hospitals, schools... and all the other essentials of everyday life.
Despit the fact that most of the "decent" countries have supported the idea od a two-state system, Israel (backed by America up to now) have opposed this, leaving those displaced with what option exactly - move to a surrounding Arab country (Ben Gurion's dream).
Nomads are being forced out of their traditional lands (in some cases leading to ill health and even death) in order to make room for settlers.
Even in some of the places nomads have been able to ghettoise themselves, they have had natural water supplies cut off and have had to negotiate fresh supplies with water companies set up by the Settlers committees or the Israeli Government.
Whatever way you look at this, it is ethnic cleansing in all but name - add to this the 5 million refugees who ara not able to return to their homes, you have ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969."

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
You can't sput it any clearer than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 11:42 AM

Steve, the Ben Gurion letter quote.
A statement had words crossed out that reversed the original meaning and became inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph.
He did not make alterations normally.
I think he meant what he wrote not what it was altered to look like.

This from the man who first used the quote,
"The quote, from Ben-Gurion's letter of 5 October 1937 to his son Amos, as it appeared in my The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (CUP, 1988), read: "We must expel Arabs and take their places … " I had quoted it from Shabtai Teveth's much-lauded book Ben-Gurion and the Palestine Arabs (OUP 1985).

The problem was that in the original handwritten copy of the letter deposited in the IDF Archive, which I consulted after my quote was criticized, there were several words crossed out in the middle of the relevant sentence, rendering what remained as "We must expel the Arabs …" But Ben-Gurion rarely made corrections to anything he had written, and this passage was not consonant with the spirit of the paragraph in which it was embedded. It was suggested that the crossing out was done by some other hand, later — and that the sentence, when the words that were crossed out were restored, was meant by Ben-Gurion to say and said exactly the opposite ("We must not expel the Arabs … ").

In my subsequent works, I either omitted the quotation altogether or used the version allowed by the restoration of the crossed-out words."

The Sharon quote was definitely faked.
He never said it.

Jim,
"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."
Go read what the Israelis are doing
Stop trying to limit yur arguments - this is what you had#ve always done

You made the claim Jim.
Can you substantiate it or not?
That is the only issue I have made from your "page of gibberish" because it was the first point you made in it.
That is as far as we have got through it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 12:26 PM

"You made the claim Jim."
Done it a dozen times Keith - keep up
"because it was the first point you made in it."
And it's a point that, despite being hammered into the ground, you still persist on clinging to
You persistently called me a liar - you might confirm that, as some of my argument was based on what the Holocaust survivors wrote, you consider them "liars" too
Silence with,as far as I am concerned, confirm that you do - unless, of course, you fallback on the blustering Brigadier's argument that because they weren't elected, they have no voice - just as disgusting
Missed a bit from above
One of the more recent aspects of Israeli ethnic cleansing is their attempts to encourage Jews from all over Europe to emigrate to Israel - not as a result of the persecution in the 30s and 40s, which led to the establishment of the State, but to create a monotheistic state.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 12:40 PM

Automatic citizenship for Jews eh?

Unless you are an Ethiopian Jew of course. I read some rather shocking stuff recently about how those who managed to get there have been treated.

Calling it a Jewish state when Arabs, Christians, Sikh, the other one and rational people also make up the numbers is almost as bad as when Cameron calls The UK a Christian country. I'm not a Christian, my mate Tahir definitely isn't a Christian and a mate in my local pub puts Jedi Knight when asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:06 PM

You call people liars on the strength of the doubtful claim that Ben Gurion did not cross out his own handwriting. The spirit of what was left in the letter after the crossing-out was certainly in keeping with other things he was known to have said, as Jim as demonstrated. You are far too quick to call people liars, Keith, and the real reason you do it is because you are clearly insecure about the "information" you put to us. Calling someone a liar implies a certainty about your stance that you don't possess. Disreputable behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:20 PM

Calling it a Jewish state......

Jewish is a nationality, Judaism is the religion.

Any vilification by you of Islamic states? Thought not.

Your selectivity is telling.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:33 PM

Jim, if you stand by, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians" then please produce something that shows that they are.

I do not believe that they are and nothing you have produced so far shows that they are.
I think that you made it up.

Steve, do you believe that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?

Can you say why you believe that?
As Greg says, dubious quotes from the long dead are not evidence of anything being done now.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 01:43 PM

"A statement had words crossed out that reversed the original meaning and became inconsistent with the rest of the paragraph."
Ben Gurion's statements were contradictory – on the one hand he talked about the Arabs agreeing to be resettled voluntarily (ethnic cleansing by approval), on the other, he said they refused, they there were there means at their disposal (ethnic cleansing pure and simple)
Then There was
"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the
[Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that"
Whatever way you take it, his dream was to create an ethnically pure (ethnically cleansed) state.
"The Sharon quote was definitely faked.
He never said it"
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11576714
BBC
You really are into self-harm, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:07 PM

Yep, the euphemistic term "transfer" was highly popular among Zionists in the runup to 1948. Euphemisms are a good way of getting your bad ideas accepted. "Rendition" is a nice modern example.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:32 PM

You both think it likely that he accidentally wrote "We must not expel the Arabs … " and then crossed out the "not."

I think that most unlikely!

You both think that ""the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

OK, then tell me why you do and why I should believe it.
Ancient and dubious quotes from the long dead are not evidence of the current policy.

Have any Arabs been cleansed out of Israel?
Evidence please.
Is it being attempted?
Evidence please.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:38 PM

Jim, you just linked to this BBC page of Sharon quotes, implying it proves me wrong.

The quote I said was fake is not there!
I have no problem with any of them.
Which one do you have an issue with?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11576714

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 02:39 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11576714

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:17 PM

The anonymous guest, who may or not he BraidedBeardedBruce, completely misses the point.

My comments about a Jewish state and a Christian country are obviously way too high over the bar for his grasp.

If you can't comment intelligently, stick to child abuse. We had a "guest" who admitted to that once. Unless you show otherwise, it must have been you.

😴

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:41 PM

Just personal abuse.
No actual point.
Please block this serial offender.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:54 PM

The quote I said was fake is not there!
The 'Ethnic cleansing statement is the one I was referring to and it's there- don't know which one you're on about.
""Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998"
Why shouldn't he have said it - he was the butcher of Sabra Shatila?
"I think that most unlikely"
Personally.I don't give two ***** what you believe - you dismissed every other fact put before you
Again - he has been quoted as saying it and it has never been disproved that he didn't
Morris's claim is to say the least, suspiciously convenient as Israel had forbidden access to many Ben Gurion documents even though, by law, they have become legally accessible
Ben Gurion's honesty in his dealings is now being treated as suspicious (see below)
It is suggested that President Kennedy was instrumental in forcing Israel to take refugees back into Israel
KENNEDY'S ROLE
Any sane person has enough information to realise that Ethnic cleansing has been part of Israel's plan from before the State was established – doesn't apply to you, rr yout little band of right-wing fanatics and Antisemites, of course
Jim Carroll


DID BEN GURION REWRITE HISTORY?
"The Israeli censor's observant eye had missed file number GL-18/17028 in the State Archives. Most files relating to the 1948 Palestinian exodus remain sealed in the Israeli archives, despite the fact that their period as classified files – according to Israeli law – expired long ago. Even files that were previously declassified are no longer available to researchers. In the past two decades, following the powerful reverberations triggered by the publication of books written by those dubbed the "New Historians," the Israeli archives revoked access to much of the explosive material. Archived Israeli documents that reported the expulsion of Palestinians, massacres or rapes perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, along with other events considered embarrassing by the establishment, were reclassified as "top secret." Researchers who sought to track down the files cited in books by Benny Morris, Avi Shlaim or Tom Segev often hit a dead end. Hence the surprise that file GL-18/17028, titled "The Flight in 1948" is still available today.

The documents in the file, which date from 1960 to 1964, describe the evolution of the Israeli version of the Palestinian Nakba ("The Catastrophe") of 1948. Under the leadership of Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion, top Middle East scholars in the Civil Service were assigned the task of providing evidence supporting Israel's position – which was that, rather than being expelled in 1948, the Palestinians had fled of their own volition.

Ben-Gurion probably never heard the word "Nakba," but early on, at the end of the 1950s, Israel's first prime minister grasped the importance of the historical narrative. Just as Zionism had forged a new narrative for the Jewish people within a few decades, he understood that the other nation that had resided in the country before the advent of Zionism would also strive to formulate a narrative of its own. For the Palestinians, the national narrative grew to revolve around the Nakba, the calamity that befell them following Israel's establishment in 1948, when about 700,000 Palestinians became refugees.

By the end of the 1950s, Ben-Gurion had reached the conclusion that the events of 1948 would be at the forefront of Israel's diplomatic struggle, in particular the struggle against the Palestinian national movement. If the Palestinians had been expelled from their land, as they had maintained already in 1948, the international community would view their claim to return to their homeland as justified. However, Ben-Gurion believed, if it turned out that they had left "by choice," having been persuaded by their leaders that it was best to depart temporarily and return after the Arab victory, the world community would be less supportive of their claim.
Most historians today – Zionists, post-Zionists and non-Zionists – agree that in at least 120 of 530 villages, the Palestinian inhabitants were expelled by Jewish military forces, and that in half the villages the inhabitants fled because of the battles and were not allowed to return. Only in a handful of cases did villagers leave at the instructions of their leaders or mukhtars (headmen).«

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 03:58 PM

Seriously, you guys need a 12-step program and a support group!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:25 PM

Euphemisms are a good way of getting your bad ideas accepted

Like the "Zionists", the "state" of Israel, AIPAC etc......right Stevie.....nudge, nudge, wink, wink!

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:52 PM

I'm confused Keith.

Were you agreeing with me re the anonymous poster or are you referring to some of your distasteful hatred in your posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:56 PM

What are you on about? Do you actually know what "euphemism" means?

Jeri, you need a support group that advises you either to contribute or to just bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:00 PM

The first part of that was to beardie-weirdie bruciebubbles.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:24 PM

Jewish is a nationality

No, BSB - ISRAELI is a nationality. Jewish is a member of the Jewish faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 06:39 PM

Wrong Greggie. Who are you to say that Jews aren't a race or nationality? Who made you arbiter of defining what is a Jew? The Jewish people say otherwise and I accept their word over that of some flunkie on a folk music forum lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:10 PM

If you are an Israeli national with appropriate passport, you are an Israeli by nationality. You can be an Israeli by nationality if you are a Christian, an Arab, an atheist or whatever. Such people are not Jewish nationals, even though they are citizens of the so-called Jewish state, because they are not Jews. The term nationality, applied to individuals, refers to the state of their citizenship. Because far from everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish, it is not appropriate to refer to "Jewish nationality", and it doesn't matter who says that. I am not an arbiter in these matters. I am simply applying the generally-accepted way that things are. I'm sorry that you find this so difficult, beardie-weirdie Mr not-anonymous Brucicles. I'll try to help you in any way I can. All you have to do is ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:26 PM

Another Jew hater speaking for the Jews.....keep it up, your arrogance knows no bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:32 PM

You're running out of accolades, Brucie dearest. Your imagination has run riot but you haven't seen it for days.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 07:34 PM

Tell us again how you're not an antisemite....by YOUR definition......lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:09 PM

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
European definition of Antisemitism No. 11 - final item

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
lol
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:19 PM

He's trolling, Jim. Either that, or the extremely childish "lol" that he's decided to resort to is a reflection of his declining mental state or a reflection of his ever-increasing alcohol load. He might feel better in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:20 PM

Ilan Pappe is an Israeli historian,
"Calling a Spade a Spade:The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Written by Ilan Pappe
Calling a Spade a Spade:The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
For many years, the term al Nakba, the catastrophe, seemed a satisfactory term for both the events of 1948 in Palestine and their impact on our lives today. I think, it is time to use a different term, 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine'.
The term Nakba does not directly imply any reference to who is behind the catastrophe – anything can cause the destruction of Palestine, even the Palestinians themselves.
Not so when the term ethnic cleansing is used. It implies an accusation and reference to the culprits of/for the events that took place not only in the past but happen also in the present. Far more importantly, it connects policies, such as ones used to destroy Palestine in 1948, to an ideology which continues to guide Israel's policies towards the Palestinians: the Nakba continues, or more forcefully and accurately, the ethnic cleansing rages on. In this 58th commemoration of the Nakba, it is time to use openly and without hesitation the term ethnic cleansing as the best possible term for describing the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948.
Ethnic Cleansing is a crime and those who perpetrate it are criminals. In 1948, the leadership of the Zionist movement, which became the government of Israel, committed a crime against the Palestinian people. The crime was Ethnic Cleansing. This is not a casual term but an indictment with far reaching political, legal and moral implications. The meaning of this term was clarified in the aftermath of the 1990s' civil war in the Balkans. Any action by one ethnic group meant to drive out another ethnic group with the purpose of transforming a mixed ethnic region into a pure one is Ethnic Cleansing. An action can become Ethnic Cleansing regardless of the means employed. Every means, from persuasion and threats to expulsions and mass killings, justifies the attribution of the term to such policies. The act itself qualifies the categorization of the act: therefore, certain policies are regarded as Ethnic Cleansing by the international community even when a master plan for their execution is not found or exposed. Consequently, the victims of Ethnic Cleansing are both people who left out of fear and those expelled forcefully as part on an on-going operation. The above definitions and references can be found in the American State Department and United Nations websites. These are the principal definitions that guided the International Court in The Hague when it was setup to try those responsible for planning and executing the Ethnic Cleansing operations as people guilty of perpetrating crimes against humanity.
In Plan Dalet, adopted in March 1948 by the high command of the Hagana (the main Jewish underground in the pre-state days), the Israeli objective of 1948 is clear. The goal was to take over as much as possible of the territory of Mandatory Palestine and remove most of the Palestinian villages and urban neighborhoods from the coveted territory which would constitute the future Jewish State. The execution was even more systematic and comprehensive than the plan anticipated. In a matter of seven months, 531 villages were destroyed and 11 urban neighborhoods emptied. The mass expulsion was accompanied by massacres, rape and imprisonment of men (defined as males a bove the age often) in labor camps for periods over a year. All these characteristics in the year of 2006 can be only attributed to Ethnic Cleansing policy; namely a policy that, according to the UN definition, aims at transforming a mixed ethnic area into a pure ethnic space, where all means are justified. Such a policy is defined under international law as a crime against humanity which the US State Department believes can only be rectified by the repatriation of all the people who left or were expelled as a result of the ethnic cleansing operations.

The political implications of such a statement is that Israel is exclusively to blame for the making of the Palestinian refugee problem and bears legal, as well as moral responsibility for the problem. The legal implication is that even if there is obsolesce, after such a long period, for those who committed a deed which is described as a crime against humanity, the deed itself is still a crime for which nobody ever was brought to justice. The moral implication is that indeed the Jewish State, like many other states, was born out of sin, but the sin, or the crime, was never admitted. Worse, among certain circles in Israel it is acknowledged and in the same breath fully justified: justified in the past and in the future as a future policy against Palestinians wherever they are.

But all these implications were totally ignored by the Israeli political elite and instead a very different lesson was derived from the events of 1948. The lesson: you can, as a state, expel half of Palestine's population, destroy half of its villages and get away with it without a scratch or criticism. The consequences of such a lesson were inevitable: the continuation of the Ethnic Cleansing policies by other means. There are well-known landmarks in this process, for instance, the expulsion of tens of villages between 1948 and 1956 from Israel proper, the forced transfer of 300,000 Palestinians from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and a very measured, but constant, cleansing from the Greater Jerusalem area.

As long as the political lesson is not learned, there will be no solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The issue of the refugees will repeatedly fail any attempt, successful as it may be in any other parameters, to reconcile the two conflicting parties. This is why it is so important to recognize the 1948 events as an Ethnic Cleansing operation, so as to ensure that a political solution will not evade the root of the conflict, namely, the expulsion of the Palestinians. Such evasions in the past are the main reasons for the collapse of all the previous peace accords.

As long as the legal lesson is not learned – there will always remain retributive impulses and revengeful emotions on the Palestinian side. The legal recognition of the 1948 Nakba as an act of ethnic cleansing would enable a restitutive justice. This is the process that has taken place recently in South Africa. The acknowledgement of past evils is not done in order to bring criminals to justice, but rather in order to bring the crime itself to public attention and trial. The final ruling there will not be retributive, there will be no punishment, but rather restitutive, the victims will be compensated. The most reasonable compensation for the particular case of the Palestinian refugees was stated clearly already in December 1948 by the UN General Assembly in its resolution 194: the unconditional return of the refugees and their families to their homeland (and homes where possible).
As long as the moral lesson is not learned the state of Israel will continue to exist as a hostile enclave in the heart of the Arab world. It will remain the last reminder of the colonialist past that complicates not only Israeli relationships with Palestinians, but with the Arab world as a whole. And, because the moral lesson is not fully comprehended, there exists in Israel justifications for Ethnic Cleansing both in 1948 and its current forms.
When and how can we hope for these lessons to be learned and influence the effort to bring peace and reconciliation in Palestine? First, of course, not much can be expected to happen as long as the present brutal phase of the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip continues. And the effort to locate the 1948 ethnic cleansing at the center of the world's attention and consciousness must continue, alongside the struggle against the occupation, including tactic of BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) being adopted as the main strategy by civil society in the Occupied Territories and by the international solidarity movement. This effort can not be limited to one place. The place where the Ethnic Cleansing of 1948 occurred, Israel of today, is totally excluded from this enterprise. The work to raise attention and consciousness inside the land of the Nakba should continue and be coordinated with Palestinians and those who support them. With the help of Badil and other organizations, the Palestinian refugees in Israel, Internally Displaced Persons, and other leading Palestinian NGOs in Israel, cooperated with a group of Jewish activists to initiate a serious attempt to bring Ethnic Cleansing to the attention of the public and argue forcefully and without any hesitation for the implementation of the Palestinian right of return.

In two conferences supporting the right of return, Palestinian and Jewish researchers and activists publicly aired their findings about the ethnic cleansing from 1948 until today and presented their ideas on how best to move forward in educating public opinion about the disastrous implications – for Palestinians and Jews alike, indeed for the world at large – of the continued denial of the 1948 Ethnic Cleansing and the refusal to accept the internationally recognized Right of Return.
On the 58th anniversary and in preparation for the 60th anniversary we – Palestinians, Israelis and whoever cares for this land – should demand that the 1948 crime against humanity be included in everyone's history books so as to stop the present crimes from continuing before it is too late.
Dr. Ilan Pappe is a senior lecturer in the college of political sciences at the University of Haifa. He is also the head of the Emile Touma Institute for Palestinian and Israeli Studies, Haifa. Dr. Pappe is considered one of the new Israeli historians".

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:30 PM

Excellent piece, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:38 PM

Good to have old BullshitBruce back amongst us for comic relief, even if he is too much of a putz to post under his own name.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 08:42 PM

Another Jew hater speaking for the Jews.....keep it up, your arrogance knows no bounds.

I dunno, BSB - you're a total jackass who claims to be "speaking for the Jews"- how arrogant does that make YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 03:58 AM

Israel is a state.

It can't be a Jewish state because citizens who don't have any superstitious faith get to vote too.

Next.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 04:22 AM

Jim,
The 'Ethnic cleansing statement is the one I was referring to

That quote is about West Bank settlements.
Why is that relevant to your claim that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?

It is well known that Sharon was a robust supporter of settlements, but I am challenging your claim about ethnically cleansing Israel of Palestinians now.

It is becoming increasingly clear that you made the whole thing up.

There is no ethnic cleansing of Israel, and you can produce nothing to support your claim.

Steve do you believe that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?
Why do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 05:05 AM

"That quote is about West Bank settlements."
Doesn't make any difference - they all say the same thing - "drive them out"
Do you have any evidence that anything that has been put up (which you refuse even to respond to) are "fakes" or are you just reduced to denying documented evidence - these are not "our opinions" - they are all taken from researched sources, and the fact that you refuse to respond to them indicates tha you are not able to.
Wild accusations of "fake" are a sign of desperation - evident from the start of this discussion
If you have any actual evidence to back your case - feel free
Your dishonesty in accusing others of lying is breathtaking - it really is.
Hope you said a prayer for yourself this morning.
YOUR CASE
Another piece for you to ignore now you're home from Church
Jim Carroll

From The Economist SQUEEZE THEM OUT
The Palestinians' West Bank
As Jewish settlements expand, the Palestinians are being driven away
May 4th 2013 | SUSIYA | From the print edition

IT WAS just another day for the Israeli army on the West Bank. Having parked its jeeps in the hills south of Hebron, a unit of soldiers checked the papers of the Palestinians who lived there, confiscated one or two, and then herded the people and their flocks off a hilltop which a nearby Jewish settlement, called Susiya, has been eyeing with a view to taking it over. "Military zone," tersely explained an Israeli officer, who had just received a warrant declaring it such. "Off you go."
Taking time out from their Saturday morning prayers, a few settlers looked on approvingly. "Don't argue," replied the officer, when a Palestinian shepherd asked why the soldiers were moving Arabs out of the newly acquired military zone but not Jews. "You have a minute to move or I'll arrest you," said the officer.
"Settlers are just off-duty soldiers," mumbled the shepherd to his sons as they stubbornly continued to tend their sheep. A Palestinian mother picnicking with her two toddlers is hauled away by Israeli soldiers, while villagers plead for her release.
The signs of previous bouts of displacement ring the adjacent hills. Mobile homes for young Jewish settlers sprout on the hilltops. Armed with a list of military orders, Israeli soldiers are herding the West Bank's Palestinians out of the rural 60% of the territory, officially known as Area C, where Israel has full military and civilian control, and into cities. On some days the Israeli army declares a patch of land to be a live-fire military zone. On other days they say the Palestinians must move because of an impending archaeological dig. The erection of hilltop stations to provide antennae for Israeli mobile phones (but not for Palestinian ones) is another oft-cited reason for pushing Palestinians out. Eight Palestinian hamlets around Susiya face demolition.
Armed Jewish settlers assist the clearance. Soon after the army did its job, a Jewish shepherdess from Susiya brought her flock onto a Palestinian field of wheat to let it graze. Someone had scratched out all the Arabic road signs. "The only weapons we have are our cameras," says Alia Nawaja, a mother of seven turned amateur camerawoman, who lives in a nearby hamlet. Palestinian violence, however, still occasionally erupts. On April 30th a Jewish settler was killed by a Palestinian for the first time since September 2011, at the other end of the West Bank.
A barrage of reports by the UN, the European Union and assorted charities has repeatedly warned that the Palestinians in Area C are under threat. Some 350,000 Jewish settlers now inhabit over 200 settlements and outposts in the same area, usually on the high ground, twice as many people as the Palestinians in the land below. Moshe Yaalon, Israel's new defence minister, the ultimate authority in the West Bank, backs a report commissioned last year by the Israeli government, endorsing all such Jewish settlements. Naftali Bennett, another powerful minister in the new coalition of Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, wants all of Area C to be annexed outright to Israel.
In many respects this has already largely taken place. A senior Israeli officer recently testified in court that in the past 45 years of Israeli occupation the army has redistributed around 70% of the West Bank land designated as state-owned either to Jewish settlers or to the World Zionist Organisation, whereas less than 1% of supposedly state-owned land was granted to Palestinians. While Israel's government expands Jewish settlements and ties them to Israel proper with a network of roads, it bars and sometimes reverses Palestinian development. It habitually denies housing permits to Palestinians, thus stunting the community's natural growth, yet provides uninterrupted water to Jewish settlements. Water for the Palestinians generally comes once a week, by lorry. Israeli soldiers have destroyed scores of small EU-funded projects, ranging from wells to solar panelling, and threatened to demolish scores more.
So far this year Israel's army has evicted almost 400 Palestinian West Bankers from their homes in Area C, the fastest rate for two years, says the UN, and has dismantled over 200 residential and work-related structures. The number of such incidents has risen sharply since a new Israeli government, with even stronger settler influence within it, took office in March. As a result, the European Union called on April 26th for an end to what it calls "the forced transfer" of Palestinians out of Area C. The Israeli army has also again demolished a restaurant, al-Maghrour, in a rural spot that was popular with Palestinians from nearby Bethlehem, which is increasingly hemmed in by settlements. In addition, some 2,300 Bedouin have recently been earmarked for removal from the strategic west-east corridor known as E1, which links Jerusalem to a big Jewish settlement, Maale Adumim, and to its smaller satellite community, Kfar Adumim, where Israel's new housing minister, Uri Ariel, happens to reside.
CORRECTION: The first version of this story had an incorrect number of Palestinian West Bankers in the final paragraph. This was changed on May 20th.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 05:13 AM

Jim, I have always accepted that there is an issue about settlements in the West Bank, but I challenge your claim that "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

Did you mean that or not?
If you did, what evidence have you for such a claim?

Why do you claim that West Bank settlements are the same as cleansing Palestinians out of Israel?
Two entirely separate issues, one of which you have made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 06:01 AM

Ethnic cleansing means trying to clear a particular ethnic group from a territory. That may or may not mean a nation. Ethnic cleansing does not necessarily mean putting everyone on big trucks and dumping them somewhere else, or lining everyone up and shooting them. You can attempt it by making life intolerable for the people you want out. Bulldozing mosques and homes, often whole villages, and cutting off natural water supplies, as the Israeli regime does to the Negev Bedouins, fit the bill. Israel wants the Bedouins out the Negev. Keith is, dishonestly as ever, trying to set a booby trap by forcing his own very narrow definition of ethnic cleansing, expressed, of course, in the precise way needed to exclude anything Israel does, then asking us whether Israel is guilty of it. Israel has expanded its occupation more and more, and makes life difficult or impossible for the people who formerly lived in those areas. It may not be mass murder, but it is still ethnic cleansing. If you take over a Palestinian area for settlements that are exclusively for Jewish people, what else would you call it, Keith? Application of the planning laws, maybe, so we just shrug?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 06:35 AM

"I have always accepted that there is an issue about settlements in the West Bank, "
No you haven't - you have always accepted them unquestioningly
Why lie about something you have crusaded on for years
When the Bedouins were moved onto a toxic site - first you denied their toxicity, eben though it was common knowlege, then you said "nobody has a right to move about to live where they choose" (this of a large population of Nomads   
"the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians".
The Israelis are attempting to force the Palestinians into Ghettos, with the eventual aim of clearing them out of the area permanently - doesn't happen overnight, but that is the aim of the right wing Zionists who rule the roost.
Apartheid, clearly identified and condemned by decent Israelis, is one step in this process.
Recently an Israeli Minister has said that Israel was "bequeathed by God to the Jewish people".
Zionists are calling for the Government to cut off electric and water suppo#lies to Gaza and "Drive them into the Desert" and others have said they should be driven out "Their Arab neighbours can take care of them" - common after the last two murderous invasions of Gaza - cutting off water and electricity is now a common weapon of the Israeli regime.
Yes - I believe the regime wants an ethnically pure Israel - that was the aim at the beginning and it remains the goal of the people in charge.
One of Israel's main problems is that it has ovr-stepped the mark as far as the rest of the world is concerned, even with the "decent" countries.
Dispite your attepts to show otherwise, all have condemned the expansionist programme and most have recognised last years massacres as "massacres" - only head-bangers like you support their terrorism.
You say there is no ethnic cleansing, yet you have been given atricles from Israelis, from Jews es#elsewhere, from non Jews.... even from Holocaust Survivores, naming it for what it is. I aslk again, do you believe the Holocaust Survivors are liars?
"Why do you claim that West Bank settlements are the same as cleansing Palestinians out of Israel?"
If people are driven out of their homes - that is ethnic leansing.
If Israelis take the attitude they have of stone-throwing, cutting off water, delaying planning permits... when new houses are built... where are the evicted going to go?
Last year, following Israel's mass destruction of homes and hospitals, the regimres first step was to withold taxes much needed to rebuild the destruction
The blockade has prevented essential building and farming material from evntering Gaza
Do you want more -- plenty of examples, that was only the start.
Answer my question and respond to the information you have been given
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 06:37 AM

"one of which you have made up"
You are lying
Every single piece of information I have put up has been taken from documented reports - they have bee sourced
Where have i ever invented a quote?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 06:50 AM

Can you pleae put up my "made up" quote
NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 08:26 AM

This is what passes for news reporting that the dupes of the world lap up then spew out on forums such as this one:

Former al-Jazeera America journalist sues over anti-Israel, pro-Arab bias

Shannon High-Bassalik says during Gaza war she was told to cast Israel as the villain and emphasize the Arab point of view.

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 08:44 AM

So are you moaning about the articles or about the Times Of Israel, not exactly a neutral publication, eh? :-). I don't know who your "dupes" are but those are not sources I would ever resort to. Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 09:15 AM

"Former al-Jazeera America journalist sues over anti-Israel, pro-Arab bias"
WE'll stick with everything you're ignoring, if you don't mind - that's what passes for news reporting
Do you think the Holcaust Survivors are lying Antisemites?
Keith seems to be refusing to say anything on the grounds that it might incriminate him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 09:15 AM

A typical dupe comes up with a typical dupe comment....as expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 09:26 AM

Whoops – missed a bit

Trócair

Eviction

Amnesty

NEW York Times

NHuman Rights Watch

Aryeh King, settlers leader

Now that's what I call news reporting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 09:45 AM

And Bruce The Distempered trolls again.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 09:49 AM

"Keith seems to be refusing to say anything on the grounds that it might incriminate him"

Nah, Jim, he'll be tightening up his definition of ethnic cleansing, having checked out all his sources first, in order to exclude everything Israel has ever done to the Palestinians. Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 03:37 PM

Bit difficult finding "real historians" on a Sunday
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 03:43 PM

Why's that, Jim? Do they refrain from servile works?   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 03:47 PM

Are there any living eminent ethnic cleansing experts still around?

Might be some waiting in cells in The Hague or hiding in Serbia.

I'm sure they will all agree with Keith's definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 04:10 PM

Steve,
Keith is, dishonestly as ever, trying to set a booby trap by forcing his own very narrow definition of ethnic cleansing,

No.
Jim was quite specific in his accusation.
He claimed "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

That is unequivocal.

I take it that you both now admit that the Israeli regime is NOT attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians.

Jim,
"one of which you have made up"
You are lying

I said, "Two entirely separate issues, one of which you have made up."
One issue was the settlements, which I have always acknowledged was an issue.
The other issue was that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians, which you made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 07:32 PM

Ah. Anything Keith either cannot comprehend or doesn't fit his agenda is "made up."

Nothing new here...

Hardly worth the wait really.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 08:36 PM

"The other issue was that the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically"
No it wasn't - you are now lying about lying
Your accusation was that I had made up a quote credited to Sharon the Butcher
""The Sharon quote was definitely faked. He never said it"
What wa the quote that was "faked"
You seem totally unable to separate truth from fiction - that is why you still have not produced the actual "made up" quote
You are really squalid - a true representative of the Israeli regime
Just go away - you are now a standing joke with your "historians" and "decent countries" and "implants.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:00 AM

The quote was faked but not by you.
You just immediately and unquestioningly believed it, as you people do all the propaganda and lies poured out by enemies of Israel.

I accused you of making up an issue, not a quote.

Why do you claim that West Bank settlements are the same as cleansing Palestinians out of Israel?
Two entirely separate issues, one of which you have made up.

Steve and Musket, do you believe that, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

Why can you find no evidence of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:08 AM

The Palestinian territories are ever-contracting, the Israeli-usurped areas are ever-expanding. Life for Palestinians is difficult or impossible in those areas. It's clear what the Israeli regime's ultimate aim is, to clear Palestinians out of its most desired and desirable areas. That is ethnic cleansing. Out of the Israel that the regime wants to create. Will that do, Keith, or do you want more time to keep working on your definition?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:21 AM

I know what ethnic cleansing is thank you Steve.
The charge is specifically, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

Have any been removed already?
If so who, and where to?

Who says that "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians?"

Apart from Jim obviously, and where did he get it from?

He made it up!

You know it is not true, but you go on trying to defend a demonstrably false claim.
Let's clear this one up and discuss some real issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:38 AM

I have learned a valuable life lessen recently and I suggest that you have the benefit of my experience to save wasting any more of your time. There is no point arguing with Keith. Ethnic cleansing is only ethnic cleansing if it fits his definition. Historians are only historians if they fit his definition. Racial implants are only racial implants if they fit his definition. See the pattern here?

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

And to paraphrase someone else, we seem to be in different counties seperated by a common tongue...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:55 AM

"The quote was faked but not by you"
It was not and you accused me of faking it - I fakeed nothing and never have
You are a total disgrace in the amount of time you are prepared to spend defending Is#Israeli atrocities - you have done t for years, each time the Israelis launch into another bout..
You have the facts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:55 AM

"The quote was faked but not by you"
It was not and you accused me of faking it - I fakeed nothing and never have
You are a total disgrace in the amount of time you are prepared to spend defending Is#Israeli atrocities - you have done t for years, each time the Israelis launch into another bout..
You have the facts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 06:52 AM

The Palestinian territories....

Can you show us the borders of these so-called "Palestinian" territories and tell us when they became the "Palestinian" territories.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 07:15 AM

Dave,
Ethnic cleansing is only ethnic cleansing if it fits his definition.
Completely unfair and untrue.
I have only challenged the specific claim that Jim made because it is false.
You all know it is false.

Jim,
"The quote was faked but not by you"
It was not and you accused me of faking it - I fakeed nothing and never have

I did not accuse you of faking the quote, just of repeating it.
I did accuse you of making up the claim that "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

It is not.
Israel has not been "cleansed" of one single Palestinian.
Deny that Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 07:17 AM

Which bit of There is no point arguing with Keith did you not understand, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 09:20 AM

There is no point in you arguing over this, because Jim's claim is obviously false, but you can't help yourselves.

The whole pack together in full cry.
You know you are wrong, but you can not admit it.

"All for one and one for all, the pack right or wrong"

Jim claimed, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

It is attempting no such thing.
Not one single Palestinian has been "cleansed" out of Israel.

Deny that Dave?
Steve?
Musket?
Greg?
Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 09:42 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

I guess a few of those who have had their houses demolished would consider themselves cleansed but, as I said, all down to your definition of cleansed. No point continuing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 09:44 AM

I must say that your pretense at being the brave little soldier standing against all the forces of evil made me laugh out loud though.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 10:03 AM

I guess a few of those who have had their houses demolished would consider themselves cleansed

Um no. For an example of ethnic cleansing please see the dispossession ans expulsion of Jews from Muslim countries in 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 10:07 AM

For an example of not as bas as see the above post.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 10:19 AM

I must say that your pretense at being the brave little soldier standing against all the forces of evil made me laugh out loud though.

Hardly.
All I have done is keep repeating Jim's ludicrous claim, and enjoyed the spectacle of the whole pack of you trying to justify it.

Jim claimed, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

It is attempting no such thing.
Not one single Palestinian has been "cleansed" out of Israel.

Deny that Dave?
Steve?
Musket?
Greg?
Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 10:21 AM

For an example of not as bas as see the above post.

Please see false analogy fallacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 10:40 AM

If I met you two arguing in a pub I would have you both evicted. Jim says that it is endemic. You say it does not exist. The truth is probably somewhere in between. I believe that some Palestinians are being driven out of Israel as my link shows. You do not accept that as ethnic cleansing. You are constantly redefining generally accepted terms and, as I have often said, it is not possible to discuss anything when you constantly change the goalposts. Absolutely no point continuing.

Tell you what though, seeing as you are playing that game, link us to where I, one of 'the whole pack' I presume, have tried to justify Jim's claim. You made that up...

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:09 AM

I believe that some Palestinians are being driven out of Israel as my link shows.

Your link does not show that any Palestinians have been driven out of Israel, and none have.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:14 AM

So then, Keith, where is that link to my justifying Jim's claim? Or did you make that up?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:23 AM

Dave, you said, " I believe that some Palestinians are being driven out of Israel as my link shows."

None of the links you have provided shows any such thing.

I do not make things up Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:29 AM

So, where is the link to my justifying Jim's statement then? I am pretty sure I have not done so but I am always willing to be proved wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:34 AM

Dave, you said, " I believe that some Palestinians are being driven out of Israel as my link shows."

None of your links shows any such thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:37 AM

So, where is the link to my justifying Jim's statement then? I am pretty sure I have not done so but I am always willing to be proved wrong.

How long do you think we can keep it up?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:53 AM

There is not a link to you justifying Jim's statement Dave.
That is what I said Dave.

But you did try to justify Jim's statement.

You said, "I guess a few of those who have had their houses demolished would consider themselves cleansed but, as I said, all down to your definition of cleansed."

That was certainly said in support of his case and against mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 11:57 AM

It was against your case. It was not in support of Jim's. I said I believe that the truth is somewhere between Jim's position and yours. I don't support either 'case'. You made that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 01:58 PM

You have only just said, "I believe that the truth is somewhere between Jim's position and yours."

Previously you talked of house demolition has if it justified Jim's claim.

Why do you "believe that the truth is somewhere between Jim's position and yours?"

Are you aware of Israel being cleansed of any Palestinians?

No, because there have been none.
Jim's claim is false.
The truth is not somewhere between.
There is no truth at all in Jim's claim.
He made it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 02:20 PM

Cleansed?

To be fair to Keith, that isn't the correct word in many instances.

"Murdered" by "Israeli state sponsored militants" is somewhat better fitting.

Hey Keith? Those schools and hospitals in Palestine look nice and clean!

Amazing, truly, shockingly and disgustingly amazing...

Still, it just shows that Goebbells had a point. Some daft twats will read it and repeat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 03:01 PM

Previously you talked of house demolition has if it justified Jim's claim.

I don't know what you are on Keith but you need to take more water with it. What makes you think I would use house demolition to try and justify Jim's claim? Or have you just made that up? I posted it because it said that house demolition was being used as punishment and I believe it is wrong to punish people because they are of the wrong race.

Why do you "believe that the truth is somewhere between Jim's position and yours?"

Simply because I do not believe anything I read in the press and even less of anything I read on the internet. I also believe that people, in the main, are good and no race of people would want to 'cleanse' another race. There are, however, some people in power who would want that. So the truth lies somewhere between the majority who do not want it and the power mongers who do.

Have you ever thought of making your own mind up on anything rather than trawling through the internet for justifications for your beliefs?

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 03:11 PM

What makes you think I would use house demolition to try and justify Jim's claim?

Because you linked it to "ethnic cleansing" Dave.

Jim claimed, "the Israeli regime is attempting to ethnically cleanse Israel of Palestinians."

It is attempting no such thing.
Not one single Palestinian has been "cleansed" out of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 03:21 PM

I linked it to your definition of ethnic cleansing. Nothing to do with Jim. He is quite capable of fighting his own battles.

What you mean by Not one single Palestinian has been "cleansed" out of Israel. is what I was talking about. I think having your house demolished illegally is a pretty strong hint that someone does not want you to live there while you seem to believe otherwise. Whether it is 'ethnic cleansing' or not seems to be your only argument and, personally, I do not care what you call it, it is a nasty thing to happen.

What DO you mean by 'cleansed' anyway? How about giving us an idea WTF you are on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 03:26 PM

Oh, BTW, You have only just said, "I believe that the truth is somewhere between Jim's position and yours."

I said that 10:40AM Mudcat time, less than an hour after I posted the link and before you started rabbiting on about me justifying anything. It's all up there for anyone to confirm.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 04:35 PM

There is no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Israel Dave.
Jim made it up.
That is why he has been unable to substantiate his wild assertion.

"What DO you mean by 'cleansed' anyway? How about giving us an idea WTF you are on about."

Why not ask Jim what he meant by it and why he can't produce anything to back up his claim?
Why is all your shit directed at me when all I have done is challenge an accusation we all know is false.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 05:02 PM

OK. Jim what did you mean by ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Israel?

I have asked. Now, Keith, what DO you mean by 'cleansed' anyway? How about giving us an idea WTF you are on about.

I'll not hold my breath for a straight answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 06:03 PM

This thread is called cultural genocide.

People who exhibit any sense of the word culture will shake their heads in disbelief at the savage views put forward in this thread regarding the Middle East.

Berlin used to have a wall. Perhaps Mossad took some photos of it when abroad assassinating opponents and brought the idea home. Bulldozers with "punishment" written on them provide the rest.

And you know what is most sickening? The appalling comments by Keith A Hole of Hertford and "ashamed to put my name" braidedbeardedbruce to the effect that if you decry Israeli terrorism that you must support Hamas and their own brand of warfare.

Those are the views of apes, not intelligent members of the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 06:04 PM

This is very depressing. Keith is desperately clinging on to some technicality of his own invention. He is ignoring the immorality of what Israel is doing. Which, Keith, is to make life impossible for Palestinians in the areas in which they live but which Israel desires for itself, so that they will be forced out. They will be forced out of the Israel that the Israeli regime aspires to. Keith, you seriously need to address the moral issues here instead of clinging to your ridiculous "from Israel" nonsense. Israel does what it thinks will be accepted in the eyes of the west. If Israel thought it could get away with dumping every Arab on its soil.outside its border, it would. We know it would and you know it would. Kicking Palestinians out of areas Israel wants for settlements, and kicking Bedouins out of the Negev by destroying the villages in which they live, is ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians out of the Israel that Israel wants. Focus on the morality issues, Keith, and leave your technicalities at the door. .

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 07:17 PM

More evidence of Israel's ethnic cleansing:

"This must have been a trying week for all the people who wrongly believe that Israel's prime minister is an unabashed anti-Arab racist: Over the past few days, Benjamin Netanyahu's government has unveiled not one, but two major initiatives to benefit Israeli Arabs – initiatives that even the far-left Haaretz, which loathes him, deemed "praiseworthy" and even "revolutionary."

Here's how Haaretz's report on the first initiative opens: "For the first time ever, an Israeli government team has documented the extent of the land and housing shortage in Israel's Arab communities and proposed recommendations for ending it."

Though the housing shortage has been one of the Arab community's biggest gripes for decades, no other prime minister in Israel's 67 years of existence has done much about it. But Netanyahu's last government not only advanced the establishment of the first new Arab city in Israel's history, it also created an interministerial task force to draft more comprehensive recommendations, which were presented to his current government this week.

Moreover, as Haaretz noted in a subsequent analysis, these recommendations are nothing less than "a revolution." Inter alia, after decades in which the borders of Arab towns remained unchanged despite a sevenfold increase in population, the new proposal finally recommends expanding these borders to provide Arab communities with more land for residential construction.

The second initiative deals with education. Here, too, the previous Netanyahu government took significant steps, adopting a five-year plan to boost funding for Arab schools by a billion shekels (about $260 million). But many pundits predicted it would be scrapped by the new education minister, Naftali Bennett of the rightist Jewish Home party.

Instead, Bennett not only announced its continuation this week, but added an important new element. All preschools – Jewish and Arab – will henceforth be entitled to a second aide, rather than having only one teacher and one aide for classes of up to 35 children. But in well-off communities, the government will underwrite only 50% of the cost while, in poor communities, it will cover 90%. As a Haaretz analysis noted, most of the poorest communities are Arab, so this decision will give a huge boost to early-childhood education in Arab towns. That prompted the paper, which loathes Bennett as well, to headline its analysis, "Naftali Bennett: Unlikely champion of Arab education."

Israel's 'Hardline' Government Unveils Major Benefits for Israeli Arabs

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 08:24 PM

How nice of them. Steal someone's land then go and get all beneficent. So simple. Why didn't I think of it before!   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 15 - 10:00 PM

Steal someone's land

Fuck off you antisemitic pig.