BS: The Pope in America

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 01:18 PM

Steve being optimistic!.   Nano seconds away from the Big Bang ! What does he mean ?! As to the absurd notion that religion is a hindrance to science , methinks he has it backwards. Science blossomed and flourished in Christianised Europe , and the fact that many , if not most scientists in history were creationists was certainly no hindrance. Contrast that to evolutionism that has been slow off the mark because the paradigm blinded them. It is not Christian faith that is being challenged by observational, repeatable and testable science but the evolutionary faith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 01:18 PM

I know you're ignoring me, Pete, but if you will insist on posting your repetitive, obsessional nonsense, I will insist on replying. Here, again, is how I responded to your last idiotic post:

"For all I know, something called "evolutionism" might be a "religious worldview" - but as "evolutionism" only seems to exist in the heads of creationists (or, possibly, only in your head, Pete?) it's all very puzzling ... or very pointless and stupid?"

And you know what is the worse thing about your nonsense? It doesn't really represent your considered, informed opinion, does it, Pete? You're just 'parroting' it from weirdo creationist websites, aren't you, Pete? You know nothing about evolutionary biology, do you? Go away, you oaf, and do some reading!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 01:15 PM

Keith asks: What terrorists in recent decades are likely to have been influenced by pastors or rabbis?

I don't think I would have asked a question like that.

There are lots of lunatic pastors in this world. Don't know of any lunatic rabbis right off, but I'm sure the West Bank settlers have some.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 12:55 PM

What terrorists in recent decades are likely to have been influenced by pastors or rabbis?

By KATHERINE STEWART    NOV. 16, 2015

EARLIER this month, in Des Moines, the prominent home-schooling advocate and pastor Kevin Swanson again called for the punishment of homosexuality by death. To be clear, he added that the time for eliminating America's gay population was "not yet" at hand. We must wait for the nation to embrace the one true religion, he suggested, and gay people must be allowed to repent and convert.

Mr. Swanson proposed this at the National Religious Liberties Conference, an event he organized. Featured speakers included three Republican contenders for the presidency: the former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana and Senator Ted Cruz of Texas.

Mr. Huckabee later pleaded ignorance. Yet a quick web search will turn up Mr. Swanson's references to the demonic power of "the homosexual Borg," the unmitigated evil of Harry Potter and the Disney character Princess Elsa's lesbian agenda.

Mr. Cruz apparently felt little need to make excuses. He was accompanying another of the featured speakers at the conference: his father, Rafael Cruz — a politically connected pastor who told a 2013 Family Leadership Summit that same-sex marriage was a government plot to destroy the family.

Senator Ted Cruz spoke at the National Religious Liberties Conference in Des Moines on Nov. 6. Credit Mark Kauzlarich/Reuters

On Saturday, father and son traveled to Bob Jones University in South Carolina to join a Rally for Religious Liberty. Among the speakers was Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, who has called L.G.B.T. activists "hateful" and "pawns" of the devil.

The comfortable thing to do would be to dismiss Mr. Swanson as just another wombat from the embarrassing fringe of American politics. But that would be a mistake. Mr. Swanson's murderous imaginings did not interfere with his ability to attract senior Republican figures to his conference, including as a keynote speaker Bob Vander Plaats, an Iowa politician who will grant the "Most Wanted Endorsement of 2016," according to the Conservative Review.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 12:48 PM

I think I already said what the "so what " is bill.   Ie, that beside the other reasons why I think I am justified in describing evolutionism as a religious worldview , is the added reason that even some evolutionists admit it. I shall return the compliment.... So 98 percent don't agree...so what !. If they cannot demonstrate to the contrary , my point stands .

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 05:44 AM

Well I'm blowed if I can see how that follows on from what I said. God's children work in mysterious ways I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 04:16 AM

Steve Shaw sez: By the way, we scientifically-minded people don't recognise "proven otherwise."

Do I take that to mean that you think Scientists (uppercase "S") never make mistakes, Steve?

-Joe Offer-

P.S. I don't know if a nonbelieving life would be just as satisfying, and I guess I never will, Steve. Maybe it is; but I chose another path, and I'm quite happy where I am.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 03:44 AM

By the way, we scientifically-minded people don't recognise "proven otherwise." Just thought I'd mention it. For the millionth time. Well, twentieth maybe. Or is it eight....

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 03:41 AM

How do you know it's "worked"? How do you know that a life without a Godly safety net might not have been even more edgy, exciting and rewarding? Did the people in your seminary tell you to apply the scientific method to the existence of God, by any chance? In all honesty, they should have done. I do, which is why I'm a heathen. There is simply no other conclusion to reach. Of course, if they taught you that the scientific method can be applied to some things and not others, they weren't being very, er, scientific, were they?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 02:26 AM

Nope, Shimrod, the God aspect of life is a matter of sheer belief. I choose to believe, and it has been a good choice for me. It has given me a positive outlook on life and pushed me toward serendipity instead of safer choices. It has made me more generous and more adventuresome that I might be otherwise. I take risks because I somehow feel that God will take care of things, and that has given me a richer and fuller life. As the Good Book says, I have been rewarded a hundredfold for risking to be generous and serendipitous. If that's not the right choice for somebody else, then I hope they will feel free to choose what they wish.
But for me, it works.
And it also makes me believe that the laws of science, nature, and physics are a blessing. That also has worked well for me. Maybe it's just Norman Vincent Peale's Power of Positive Thinking. I dunno, but it works for me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Nov 15 - 02:17 AM

"We were also taught that since the essence of the laws of nature, physics, and science flow from God, ..."

I bet that you weren't provided with any evidence to support that particular teaching, though, were you Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 10:15 PM

I still can't understand your thinking, Steve. When I attended a Catholic seminary 1962-70, there was never a word spoken against Darwin. We were taught the Scientific Method, and taught to generally accept the discoveries of science as reliable unless proven otherwise by other scientists. We were also taught that since the essence of the laws of nature, physics, and science flow from God, it is impossible for God and science to be in conflict.

So, whether one does or doesn't believe in a God, the laws of nature, physics, and science are exactly the same.

Where's the conflict?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 09:04 PM

All Americans, unless I am mistaken.

Most, but not all, Kevin. A simple web search will turn up whole bunches more from Europe, Asia, Australia & etc.; I didn't have time or room to list them all. Google "Christian Terrorists" for example.

The ideology that might be more relevant might perhaps be American Exceptionalism.

Nothing to do with "American Exceptionalism" - these guys are all professed Christians and brag of/are proud of being such.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 08:27 PM

Well that goes to show that even Galileo and Copernicus could be idiots too on their off-days.

Unfortunately for religion, it is severely affected by science, ever more so as more and more of the ancient sacred myths are debunked by new evidence (and my, how religion squeals). The planets going round the sun provoked huge resistance from religion even in the face of insurmountable evidence. Evolution, likewise. Fortunately for Darwin, he lived slightly after the period when he might have been chucked into a dungeon, but the Christians (ordinary ones, not just fundamentalists, people conceivably just like you), didn't half give the poor bugger some stick, so much so that he went around at times worrying more about diplomacy than being able freely to communicate the science. We're nanoseconds away from the Big Bang, and guess what: not a trace of the supernatural in sight. Because Christianity doesn't understand science, there are frequent manifestations of absurdity that, if we let them, make nonsense of the whole thing. The vain attempts to reconcile God and evolution spring to mind, with well-meaning but ignorant believers telling us that God kicked off evolution, or that he runs it from the background like a well-oiled machine, or is some kind of driving force. Science is strong enough to be invulnerable from being made a mockery of in this manner, as honesty, evidence and reason will always prevail in the end, characteristics egregiously missing from religious faith. A century and a half after Darwin, religion's unwilling great nemesis, we still have to endure these dismal pseudoscientific notions, even from several of you in this thread. And after millennia of Christianity we get pete. Who you defend!!

Having said all that, of course, it isn't impossible for a fellow to be a good scientist and still go to mass on Sunday. He isn't thinking straight in the case of the latter, of course, but as long as he keeps them apart... He would struggle if his science ever took him to the point where it meets with serious philosophy, but, mostly, he'd manage all right. We can all do things that seem incongruous side by side. In a matter of hours, I can listen to a Beethoven late quartet, score in hand, and then watch Liverpool on the telly with a big bag of pork scratchings and a bottle of Peroni. I get by.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 08:12 PM

" ...some evolutionists have admitted the religious, faith, belief dimension of their position."

So what, Pete?... some fundamentalist Christians have 'admitted' the value & primacy of science in studying everything.

You can find a small % of most groups who don't agree with some of the main points of the group. You used to bring up 'some' palentologists who had 'different' ideas about the age of bones.... and you consider the exceptions to be more important than the huge majority who basically agree with each other?
The exact quotes might explain a bit more about what those few mean by 'faith'... but you are still left with 98%+ who would think the idea is silly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 07:15 PM

Steve Shaw says: Anyone who can't see conflict between science and religious belief is, frankly, using neither their eyes, their ears nor their brains.

I'm sorry, Steve, but I can't buy that. There are those on both sides of the discussion who invent conflicts between science and religious belief, but that conflict should not be necessary.

I heard a quote in seminary, years and years ago, and then I could never find it again. It came from somebody famous like Galileo or Copernicus. It went something like this: there are God's works and there are God's words. If the words conflict with the works, then we are not understanding the words correctly.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:53 PM

All Americans, unless I am mistaken. The ideology that might be more relevant might perhaps be American Exceptionalism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 02:41 PM


What terrorists in recent decades are likely to have been influenced by pastors or rabbis?

Well, Profesor, just as a small sample, there's Paul Jennings, Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, John C. Salvi, Eric Rudolph, Scott Roeder, Shelley Shannon, Frederick Griffin, Joseph Kony, Larry Steven McQuilliams, Denis Michael Rohan, Charles Barbee, Robert Berry, Jay Merelle, James Charles Kopp, Frazier Glenn Miller, Wade Michael Page, Larry Wayne Shoemake, Benjamin Matthew Williams, James Tyler Williams, Shawna Forde, James Von Brunn...the list goes on and on and on and on.........................................

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 12:56 PM

Nah, Shimrod. No need to credit him with originality. I found "evolutionism" all over some of those wacko websites he probably gets all his stuff from.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 12:53 PM

I just reread my post of 10.09. "...justify their faith in flowery language" is absurd. Even I don't have any faith in flowery language. "Justify their faith using flowery language" would have been gooder.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 12:48 PM

For all I know, something called "evolutionism" might be a "religious worldview" - but as "evolutionism" only seems to exist in the heads of creationists (or, possibly, only in your head, Pete?) it's all very puzzling ... or very pointless and stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 12:45 PM

"...most of the criticism centred around my argument that evolutionism is a religious worldview."

It isn't an "argument." It's a piece of profound idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 12:38 PM

I posted last night but it either did,nt take or disappeared after! So a short one....most of the criticism centred around my argument that evolutionism is a religious worldview. On my previous post, I had forgotten to add point 5 , which was that some evolutionists have admitted the religious, faith, belief dimension of their position. I have previously posted some of these, and I am sure I could find the quotes again if need be. As the thread has moved on, I shall perhaps leave anything else till it rolls round again!.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 10:56 AM

I suspect that someone is trying to suggest that terrorist attacks are primarily Muslim. Of course they do not mention the 99% that are not for some reason. But why this argument is starting on a thread about the pope visiting America is beyond me. Just waiting for the arguments about Israel to start...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 10:34 AM

"What terrorists in recent decades are likely to have been influenced by pastors or rabbis?"

As you well know, KAoH - or, at least, you SHOULD well know - a key aim of terrorism is to cause the majority within a society to blame, persecute and victimise a minority (who the terrorists claim to represent) within that society so that members of the minority become alienated and more easily radicalised. I'm sure that the Independent's correspondent, Mr James, was well aware of that and was trying to be even-handed. I'm sure that we could come up with examples of Christian and Jewish terrorists if we put our minds to it.

I agree with Mr James and Steve - lying to children is a bad thing to do. Our culture is far too respectful to religion and it needs to get a much rougher ride and be forced to justify itself and its attitudes and behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 10:09 AM

That's one of my themes, Shimrod, that religious belief stunts the intellect by discouraging people from looking for the true explanations for things. It militates against critical thinking and the demand for evidence. A stunted intellect is sure to be more open to bigotry and radicalisation. There are plenty of signs of the stunting of intellect on this forum when you read how believers justify their faith in flowery language and refuse to face up to sceptical questioning. So much energy going into ardent efforts to circumvent reality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 09:52 AM

What terrorists in recent decades are likely to have been influenced by pastors or rabbis?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

Rich James, a correspondent in today's (16.11.2015) 'Independent' newspaper Letters column, writes:

"Terrorists do not learn fundamentalism in terrorist training camps; they acquire the ability to have logical thinking warped at the hands of mild-mannered, "moderate" pastors, rabbis and imams, who instil in them as impressionable young people the ability to believe in absurdities with no need for tangible proof of any kind.
From there, with the mind weakened, it is a short road to fundamentalism."

That's a very plausible hypothesis well worth checking out and a message that several posters on here won't want to hear!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 07:21 AM

I have not seen anyone blaming Islam for the weekends atrocity. Not on this thread anyway. It is down to fundamentalism and extremism. Those fundamental and extreme views usually come from the teachings of someone who has subverted the religion for their own nefarious purposes. Which brings us back to it being very important and everyone's business what youngsters, or anyone else for that matter, are taught both at school and by their parents.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:48 AM

For once Keith I fully agree with you. Sadly a small minority in all religions that I know of give the rest of them a very bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:19 AM

Oops, I misread your "most" for "many".

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 06:17 AM

Hmm. While that's true, Keith (I'd guess that you should have said the vast majority of Muslims), we wouldn't have had the Crusades without Christianity and we wouldn't have a bellicose Jewish state without Zionist Judaism. By saying that, one is not saying that all Christians and Jews are evil people. It's tiny minorities who instigate such things. By saying that certain extreme elements in Islam are responsible for radicalising susceptible young people, one is not being Islamophobic. My main gripe with all religion, aimed in this thread mostly at Catholicism as that's central to the thread, is that its adherents, quite often even the mild and moderate-sounding types (they are usually no such thing), have a penchant for trying to entrap young people very early. They will go to almost any length, including herding them to services to chant brainless prayers and forcing them to endure religious miseducation (by which I mean being lied to under a crucifix on the classroom wall). If that didn't happen I'd have very little to say about religion at all. Mind you, if that didn't happen, religion wouldn't last very long. Indoctrination and infiltration into almost every aspect of society are its only strategies for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 05:10 AM

Rag, only an Islamophobe would blame Islam for it.
Most Muslims abhor such actions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 04:38 AM

"The two issues are not related at all. It should be perfectly clear to all here by now, the dangers related to homosexuality, both to themselves, and via legislation, to society"

I would think the dangers of religion have been clearly demonstrated this weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 03:27 AM

Neither is there any legislation in place to force you to accept Christianity, or to stop you denigrating people of faith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 15 - 03:00 AM

Steve, why print such rubbish if you do not want a response?
That is a cowardly tactic.

The two issues are not related at all.
It should be perfectly clear to all here by now, the dangers related to homosexuality, both to themselves, and via legislation, to society.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 09:34 PM

Speaking of what's none of my business:

"When it comes down to it , it is none of his business what people believe or tell their children as long as it does not damage the children or society."

Well what a shame you can't apply this same principle to what gay people do in the privacy of their bedrooms, or to gay people who want to marry each other, neither of which damages either anyone else or society. And this is not an attempt to get you going on those futile matters (I won't bite if you do try it), but it is an attempt to point to your sheer unthinking hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 08:53 PM

He's clueless, Greg, just like pete. I only bother taking either of them on these days while I'm waiting for my late-night cup of tea to cool down enough to drink. If I had Mrs Steve's asbestos mouth and throat, I wouldn't bother with the silly buggers at all!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 08:21 PM

I certainly do not see present day Christianity doing anything but "good"

Then you sure as hell ain't lookin' at what's going on with the "Christians"[sic] in the Southern Bible Belt in the U.S. of A. or at the Republican idiots pandering to them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 07:38 PM

"Steve continually goes on in really insulting terms about an old man in a white robe floating around on a cloud.....well not in so many words, but he implies that believers are immature or deranged."

I have never got anywhere near mentioning old men in robes on clouds, nor have I either stated or implied that believers are immature or deranged.

"When it comes down to it , it is none of his business what people believe"

Correct, and I've said it dozens of times.

"...or tell their children as long as it does not damage the children or society."

Well I actually think it's everyone's business what people tell their children. Children are strapping bombs to their bodies because adults have told them that blowing themselves up in a crowd of infidels will give them priority in paradise. I regard that as fully my business, actually. More benignly, Christians tell children lies under the guise of religious "education". That's my business too. Those children are my future just as much as their parents'. As a matter of fact, my tax money is used to pay teachers of religion to tell those lies. That definitely makes it my business.

"I certainly do not see present day Christianity doing anything but "good".......Joe's "goodness" metaphor carries a lot of weight with me, and during my wife's illness many Christians where I live have expressed good wishes and prayers for her recovery even though neither of us are churchgoers. Their kind thoughts and prayers have been very welcome and have been made in all sincerity."

Well their prayers may have been welcome but they didn't do your wife much good, and I note that you mention only Christians. I suppose that it takes Christianity to provide all the help and good wishes that your wife ever gets. I trust that you always check the religious credentials of all those doctors and nurses before you let them go near your wife.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:54 PM

Why am I not a "believer"?

In all honesty I think I am too weak, too cynical, to "rational"

Joe's posts have made me see that sometimes we have get on to a higher plain, rise above the mundane.....let "goodness" take over the controls.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 06:43 PM

Isn't it more simple than that? In my world "GOD" is what you want God to be......and one certainty is that everyone has a "God" even if they don't recognise it or admit it.

Steve continually goes on in really insulting terms about an old man in a white robe floating around on a cloud.....well not in so many words, but he implies that believers are immature or deranged.

When it comes down to it , it is none of his business what people believe or tell their children as long as it does not damage the children or society.
I certainly do not see present day Christianity doing anything but "good".......Joe's "goodness" metaphor carries a lot of weight with me, and during my wife's illness many Christians where I live have expressed good wishes and prayers for her recovery even though neither of us are churchgoers. Their kind thoughts and prayers have been very welcome and have been made in all sincerity.

I hope Christianity is never abandoned or weakened further, without it and Jesus the philosopher, humanity would be the poorer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:30 PM

Nothing theoretical about it. No real atheist can ever say there is definitely no God. We're a pretty honest bunch, you know. Unlike some of the Christians around here, who can't even be honest with themselves, let alone their kids.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 03:19 PM

A young couple sat at opposite ends of a couch. He moved half of the distance toward her. She then moved half the remaining distance toward him. They continued to repeat that sequence. Theoretically, they never reached each other; but, for all practical purposes...

Theoretically, Steve has never reached certainty that there is no God...          : )

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 01:44 PM

That's a terrible misrepresentation, I assume borne out of frustration. How many times do I have to keep repeating myself. I'm not certain of anything. I don't know whether there's a God or not. Kevin, tell me. Have you ever read that before in any of my posts, by any chance? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 01:38 PM

Any accusations of repetition, Steve, arise because you do persistently, and insistently choose to repeat yourself.

I am sure anyone who has read this thread already knows that you are 100% sure that you are right and that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is 100% wrong, but I am not quite so sure that is necessary for you to keep saying it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 12:40 PM

Anyone who can't see conflict between science and religious belief is, frankly, using neither their eyes, their ears nor their brains. No wonder I get accused of repetition. Heads and brick walls spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 11:56 AM

"there are people who just don't see the world in the way you do, and who don't see the least conflict between science and religious belief, any more than there is between the world picture we construct with our eyes, and that we construct with our ears."

I can't quite put my finger on why, but that's one of the silliest analogies that I've come across in ages!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 11:13 AM

" I really can't see what you're getting aerated about."

I don't think anyone for whose benefit you've been posting in such energetic fashion has in fact got the least aerated, Steve. Whereas you...

You do go on! Still it's been an interesting thread in its way. But you really do need to accept that there are people who just don't see the world in the way you do, and who don't see the least conflict between science and religious belief, any more than there is between the world picture we construct with our eyes, and that we construct with our ears.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

Well I've just had a look at the wiki page on "creationism." As with the Pope, I never hold wiki to be infallible, of course. But, just reading the introductory section, I glean that DMcG appears to have this wrong, and that the terms creationist and creationism may be properly applied to any people or notions that hold that God created the universe. Of course, I fully understand that the young-earth version is not something that anyone in their right mind would wish to be associated with, and I did my level best to dissociate him from it. But if you think that God created everything, you're a creationist! I think it and wiki thinks it and that's nowhere near enough, of course. Never will be if you're on a forum with pete!