BS: The Pope in America

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Riah Sahiltaahk
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 10:32 AM

I persist in referring to evolutionism as a religion

Evolution is as much a religion as Christian Fundamentalism is a science.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,MTB
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 10:23 AM

Pete wrote:
evolutionists believe a lot of stuff that they are not able to substantiate by observable, testable ,repeatable science , and most of what they do offer has been countered by creationists.


You could write the exact opposite - "creationists believe a lot of stuff that they are not able to substantiate by observable, testable ,repeatable science , and most of what they do offer has been countered by evolutionists."

In 2002 Scientific American published an article http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/ which contains, amongst other things, these paragraphs -

The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 09:28 AM

In few words,

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 08:50 AM

Well thank you , the more moderate opponents !   Never the less , bill, thinks he might not "play anymore " if I persist in referring to evolutionism as a religion. I will risk that as , 1, that would be allowing you to set the rules of the game, bill. 2, evolutionists believe a lot of stuff that they are not able to substantiate by observable, testable ,repeatable science , and most of what they do offer has been countered by creationists. 3, since there are things they believe only on faith , calling it religion is not unreasonable( there are other parallels also ) . 4, your equating evolutionism with science , is misleading as there is a difference in what is scientifically testable and more or less beyond dispute, than origins research. I reject the notion that being a creationist is equivalent to rejecting science. In fact I could do the reverse and have , indeed , Cited when it does reject known decay rates because they threaten the paradigm.       Joe sez, " there is too much evidence that refutes creationism". Really....shall we have some then      If you cannot demonstrate that alleged evidence, you are just making an unsupported assertion, and you are accepting evolutionism (albeit theistic ) on faith.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 08:22 AM

Just because we disagree with someone, and feel offended by what they say, that doesn't really justify calling it "offensive". Otherwise there wouldn't be an opinion on anything that wasn't "offensive", because just about anything you say can get up someone's nose.

"Good morning" "How dare you say good morning. My wife has just left me."

"I blame it on Margaret Thatcher." "Mrs Thatcher is my hero. I find that remark deeply offensive."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:22 AM

Let me imagine a different vision. Despite the best part of a century trying, no satisfactory way of unifying relativity and quantum theory had been found. Then a mathematician came up with an application of godel's theorem (which as you know shows any mathematical system must be incomplete or inconsistent) to prove there could be no theory that unites those domains, no matter how we rewrite them.

I don't think that is likely, of course. But it is not unthinkable

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:07 AM

I certainly have no desire to persecute Christians. In fact, I suspect that persecution would only encourage them - the martyrdom complex and all that. What I object to, though, is aggressive evangelising - the deliberate spreading of unreason - THAT must be resisted.

Hopefully, religion will eventually fade away of its own accord. Perhaps it's an evolutionary thing?

This 'vision' came to me the other day (Hallejulah!!). In the vision thousands of people were sat staring at a giant screen. On the screen there were depictions of shepherds and prophets, tablets of stone and temples, loaves, fishes, altars and virgins (giving birth). The scene was static and unmoving. Occasionally fights broke out, among the audience, over points of detail - fights often leading to deaths.

Gradually, the audience became aware of a low rumbling sound coming from behind them. Glancing over their shoulders, they saw great juggernaut bearing down on them. The juggernaut was labelled SCIENCE. It hurtled past, and as it did so it snagged the screen, ripped it aside and revealing the vast Universe behind in all its majestic and terrifying glory!

Some of the audience are still scrabbling on the ground for fragments of the screen and attempting to piece it together again. They won't succeed, however much they shout, scream and flail about!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:25 AM

Christians are certainly being persecuted in many places ( even Mudcat)?.......but Christianity will survive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:22 AM

Pete is by far the most offensive person who posts here. Do take your blinkers off.

Pete is not offensive at all, unlike many of your posts against him Steve.

I agree with McG, "Pete is that he is invariably courteous in his posts, including when he is arguing with people who are not.
That is not something which can be taken for granted. In fact it is pretty unusual."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:07 AM

Religious faith has survived everywhere on earth no matter how many times it has been proscribed by authority.

Tell that to the faiths followed by those who were crushed by conquistadors or to the martyrs of various sects over the years. What you mean is that the religious faith that killed and tortured most people survived everywhere. It is still happening today.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:53 AM

The destruction of religious faith ...would be many times more harmful to society than anything Pete says or defends.

Thankfully, given the nature of humanity, that is highly unlikely to happen. Religious faith has survived everywhere on earth no matter how many times it has been proscribed by authority.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:03 AM

"Sorry, Kevin, but the beliefs that pete is arguing for are, indeed, harmful to society as a whole in any number of ways. Particularly when that are imposed on others who do not share his delusion and ignorance."

I think you've nailed it there, Greg!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 10:17 PM

"Pete is by far the most offensive person who posts here. "

No Steve... by that post, you just moved way ahead.

As McGrath noted, Pete is courteous in his debate. I argue with him, but I respect his honesty........ not his position, but his purposeful defense of a strongly held belief. He is not alone in the beliefs he holds, and far from the most strident voice of creationist theology.

You Steve, have a most..... 'unusual'... notion of what counts as offensive. Pete's arguments are odd, quaint and unreasonable to most of us, but 'offensive' is a pejorative term that I reserve for very extreme behavior, not for quiet exchange of views, no matter how much I disagree with them

"further, deponent sayeth not"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:30 PM

I did a bloody great big long post in response to Joe's, but the damn thing is on its way to Proxima Centauri, never to be retrieved. I blame the God squad.

Just a couple of things. From Joe: "others believe otherwise, I can learn from them without compromising what I believe myself."

Rather rigid, eh, Joe? So you don't listen, do you? Just a tad absolutist, eh?

And this:

"Steve sez: he has nothing to do with the diversity, complexity and beauty of life on Earth, as evolution by natural selection explains all that. In response, I'd say God IS "the diversity, complexity and beauty of life on Earth, as evol[ved] by natural selection" - or vice versa."

You really are beginning to look rather suspect, Joe. Would you like to take a little time out to find out what evolution actually is? The worrying thing is that I'm getting rather close to having the same conversation with you as I've "enjoyed" down the years with pete.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:13 PM

Sorry, Kevin, but the beliefs that pete is arguing for are, indeed, harmful to society as a whole in any number of ways. Particularly when that are imposed on others who do not share his delusion and ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:10 PM

Pete is by far the most offensive person who posts here. Do take your blinkers off.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:40 PM

Well, here's what Miss Manners had to say about it.

"You've likely offended some readers with your honesty. How does that differ from being rude?

"Honesty" in social life is often used as a cover for rudeness. But there is quite a difference between being candid in what you're talking about, and people voicing their insulting opinions under the name of honesty."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:12 PM

One good thing you can say about Pete is that he is invariably courteous in his posts, including when he is arguing with people who are not.

That is not something which can be taken for granted. In fact it is pretty unusual.

So what if what he is arguing for is not true? There are plenty of false beliefs that are harmful and even evil, including both those held by a few, and some which are very widely accepted, and it is right to try to fight them. But the beliefs that Pete is arguing for do not fall into that category, any more than believing in the Loch Ness Monster does.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 05:35 PM

HA! I'm not sure can live up to being a genius, a good cop and being purveyer of timeless metaphors, as well as being too lenient on Pete.............. all at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:50 PM

I agree with all that, Shimrod. You play a great role here. When we have a good cop like Bill, we need the balance of a bad cop like you!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:15 PM

The last post was guest Ed.T, on a friends computer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:13 PM

"To a man with only a hammer, a screw is a defective nail."
Orson Scott

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 02:04 PM

Just as I expected. Bullshit. Clever bullshit, as befits your training. But you can put lipstick on bullshit, but it's still bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 02:04 PM

I see that I've been accused of bullying Pete. Well, I have to confess, that he does have a tendency to bring out my 'dark side' (we've all got one, haven't we?). But if anyone deserved to be pinched, have his hair pulled and his arm twisted, behind the bike sheds, it's Pete!

Those who know me know that I'm an easy-going, tolerant sort of bloke. My 'default' position is to treat everyone I meet with respect. Nevertheless, on fairly rare occasions, I have the misfortune of meeting someone who doesn't deserve respect! Sadly, in my opinion, Pete is one of the latter. He is:

- narrow-minded and fanatical.

- has a fixed opinion which never changes no matter what reasonable arguments are put to him.

- appears to have no true opinions of his own and also appears to derive all of those opinions from highly biased sources (or source = 'Creation.com'?) which have no credibility in academic circles.

- doesn't know the difference between 'belief' and 'evidence'; he thinks that if he chooses not to believe a proposition that that counts as evidence against the proposition.

- usually completely fails to think anything through. For example, if God created the Universe, where did God come from and where did He get his materials? Pete's usually arbitrarily changes the rules of the debate by declaring that "God is un-knowable" (this pathetic 'argument' has further implications - which we won't go into here).

- doesn't even begin to understand science, its aims and objectives or its underlying philosophy. He appears to believe that science is a sort of quasi-religion - just another belief system.

- he has the temerity to set himself as a sort of expert or authority on evolution when it is obvious that he has read none of the mainstream literature on the subject and derives all of his 'information' from creationist sources.

- posts grossly uninformed, wilfully ignorant drivel which is an insult to thousands of ingenious, open-minded, hard-working scientists both past and present.

Normally, if accused of bullying, I would hang my head in shame but sadly Pete deserves everything he gets!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 01:39 PM

Steve sez: Do you believe that God is the creator of the universe and everything therein?

Yes, Steve, I do - but I tend to believe that God is the essence of the creation of the universe and everything therein, not necessarily an external force. That is a significant difference from what you prescribed. And from outward appearance, there is no difference in how it all took place, with or without God.

What I see as divine, is the wonder of all that surrounds me. Some people see the same thing and don't regard it as divine. That's OK, too.

As I've said before, I see God as That Which Is Beyond, and That Which Is Within. Not observable, not provable - it's just what I believe, my perspective on life. It works for me, and it has worked for many others before me. If others believe otherwise, I can learn from them without compromising what I believe myself.

Steve sez: he has nothing to do with the diversity, complexity and beauty of life on Earth, as evolution by natural selection explains all that. In response, I'd say God IS "the diversity, complexity and beauty of life on Earth, as evol[ved] by natural selection" - or vice versa.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM

Hmm. Let's just pause for a sec and examine this little word "creationist." Tell me this, "Moderate Joe" Offer. Do you believe that God is the creator of the universe and everything therein? If you do, you are a creationist just as much as pete is a creationist. It doesn't really matter how long ago God did it, does it? Two cheeks, same arse!   If you don't, you need to explain what the point of God is. After all, you know he didn't create everything and I know he has nothing to do with the diversity, complexity and beauty of life on Earth, as evolution by natural selection explains all that. Not an awful lot left for God, eh? Unless, of course, you ARE a creationist. Answer without twisting, please. If you like.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 12:51 PM

"What is more arrogant than to assume that, of all the paths through the woods, yours is the only true one."

Are you offering this as a defense of creationism, Ed? Or as a condemnation thereof?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 12:48 PM

And I think that "creationist" people can have valid perspectives on many things other than their creationism, so it's best to disregard that topic with them and move onto other things.

Just as, I suppose, racists, homophobes, white supremecists, Holocaust deniers, "supply-side" economists, batshit crazy doctors (well, maybe not Dr. Batshit Crazy) & etc can have valid perspectives on many other things, so it's best to disregard their racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism & etc. and move onto other things.

Gotcha, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 12:41 PM

"What is more arrogant than to assume that, of all the paths through the woods, yours is the only true one." 
― Marty Rubin

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 12:29 PM

"It's not about whether or not someone is a bigot, but whether or not the argument which that someone is arguing is worth being a bigot about." 
― Criss Jami, Killosophy

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 11:54 AM

Actually, the "alternative perspective" isn't creationism. There's too much evidence that refutes creationism, so I wouldn't expect anyone to consider it.

But the fact of the matter is that many wise people through history have had some sort of belief in a deity - a wide spectrum of beliefs that reflect a wide variety of cultures and schools of thought. I don't expect people to espouse a belief in a deity - but I think that truly wise people can respect the perspectives of others and learn from those perspectives, without espousing them.

And I think that "creationist" people can have valid perspectives on many things other than their creationism, so it's best to disregard that topic with them and move onto other things.

And I realize that militant atheists will say that there's too much evidence that refutes belief in God, but the idea of God they refute usually has little to do with what people actually believe.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 11:22 AM

Evidently you do indeed have a different understanding of what bigotry means from me, Steve.
.........
As I read what Joe wrote, Greg, when he referred to "alternative perspectives" he wasn't referring to daft beliefs about creationism, but rather to the fact that many/most people don't give a monkey's about any of this stuff, and saying "so what if they don't".

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 11:15 AM

That the earth is only 10,000 years old isn't an "alternate perspective".

Its horseshit.

Dylan almighty, that's the first time I've ever agreed with something Greg F said. I think I need to lie down.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 09:31 AM

And those people who are concerned about being absolutely correct, are blinded so that they cannot see or understand or respect alternate perspectives.

Joe, its not aout "being absolutely correct". Its about the difference between fact and horseshit.

That the earth is only 10,000 years old isn't an "alternate perspective".

Its horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 09:03 AM

These people will have the vote, be able to have children of their own, run businesses, carry guns for goodness sake. Everything that requires a degree of education not demonstrated by believing that god created human being 10,000 years ago.

Amen. In the U.S. today, stupidity is seen as a virtue.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:07 AM

As you may have gathered from last non-blank post, I did have a look for a better definition after your previous response. They all had various holes that, in my view, allowed someone who was racist to escape being classified as a bigot.

The best solution in my mind is that it has to be someone other than the speaker or poster who decides whether a statement is bigoted or not, and all the poster can do is ask themselves "Could this be seen as bigotted" and then "Do I want to post anyway?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Well I prefer proper definitions myself. Ones that merely suit one's understanding merely risk prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: eThe Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:52 AM

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:49 AM

It was the first definition in the list that came up: I didn't spend any time looking to see what definition of bigotry best suited my understanding. So I agree it isn't brilliant. But once you start including things like prejudice and ignorance and harm and (as one definition did) reasonableness then the whole thing starts to slip away. An outright racist will often think he is reasonable and is preventing harm and that everyone else is ignorant of "what is really going on".

So despite its limitations that does encapsulate the key features for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:37 AM

That is not a good definition of bigotry, with respect. No indication of prejudice or ignorance. Mere intolerance can be a virtue if you are intolerant of something that's damaging. Religion has been extremely damaging and I'm very intolerant of it. I am not intolerant of anyone's personal, private beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:29 AM

I suggest you reread the sentence. Bigotry would have been dissing everyone in the mass. Which I didn't do, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:23 AM

Read what you wrote again, Steve, and consider what you'd think if someone had posted saying, for example, those creeps you see in Shul on Saturday who've reverted to type by Saturday lunchtime.

I suppose we might perhaps have different understandings of what can constitute the language of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:12 AM

Dictionary.reference.com defines bigotry as "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief or opinion that differs from one's own"


Plenty of that, on all sides, on this thread I suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:57 AM

So what precisely was the bigotry, please?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:55 AM

Concerning the survey. The questions asked and the analysis of responses is neutral. It looks perfectly respectable to me and appears to provide fair evidence within the limits of these things. As for a don't know-don't care question, it would be invalid. I went shopping to Asda this morning. As I perused the special offers, I neither knew nor cared about God or evolution. But when asked I drag them back to the front of my mind. The Gallup survey was non-tendentious. Within each of the three enquiries there would have been a wide spectrum of enthusiasm of response ranging from passionate to shrugging. No reason in the world for a fourth question. I'm glad to see how the results cause Joe such buttock-shuffling.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:35 AM

I think you have a very strange definition of "believe" there, Steve, and one which I don't really believe you would use in daily life.

creeps you see in Sunday mass who've reverted to type by Sunday noon, I'd say that people who don't care are both incurious and pig-ignorant. I am afraid that strikes me very much as the language of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 05:15 AM

There is not one single evolutionary biologist who believes in evolution. There is no room for belief. There is evidence and reason.

I note your "alternative perspectives" ploy creeping in more and more. It is not an alternative. It's a pack of lies.

The reason why 42%, or whatever it is, deny evolution is because they have been lied to by people teaching religion. You are a hearty advocate of this miseducation, and you believe in a creator. You are not giving an "alternative perspective" at all. That's just dressing it up to make it look respectable. You are telling children lies. That is wicked. But you don't care. You think you can make people see deeper truths by telling them lies instead of the truth. Yet Greg, Raggytash, Shimrod, Greg and I are the absolutist fundamentalists. Well if that's what we have to be in order to expose your dishonest nonsense, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 05:02 AM

Firstly Joe, I can make no claim for a superior educational system on this side of the pond I'm sure there are people on Mudcat who can advise us of that. Although when I first went to University one chap "Big Dan, the Yankee Man" came over to the UK in the THIRD year of his course in the USA to join our FIRST year. Lovely man by the way.

As for not caring, that bit does worry me. I do care that people have not had, or not benefitted from, a full education. That I would consider a very sad indictment of our educational system.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 04:27 AM

Or, Raggytash, one could think it quite impressive that almost 60 percent of the citizens of a nation are sophisticated enough to have somewhat of an understanding of evolution.

Are people on the eastern side of the Atlantic so universally sophisticated that they all believe in evolution and all don't believe in God?

As for me, I really don't care if my car mechanic believes in evolution, or whether he/she believes in God. Hell, he can even be a Republican, for all I care.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 04:20 AM

Well, Joe Offer, as evolution explains all of life on Earth,

It does not explain the origin of life at all.
That is still a mystery.