BS: The Pope in America

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 11:39 AM

Well, Bill, it may well be a feeling that they have, but to claim that as evidence in any sense of the word I've ever come across would be, er, demented. Equally, Keith has a point, though he expresses it in a faux-neutral manner. There can't be evidence against because the concept has been quite deliberately formulated to put God outside scientific enquiry. Reason tells us that it's best to work within what we know but to keep on exploring, using the scientific approach allied to our imaginings. What we know is that God disobeys every law of nature so far discovered, and that he's never been seen in any sense that can be corroborated. That does not rule him out completely, but non- deluded people weigh up the odds and shrug.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:44 AM

Your post was silly whoever it was aimed at, and anyone is free say so.

Of course you are, Keith. Just as I am free to say that you talk through your arse most of the time. And there is nothing wrong with complaining about etc. etc. Just as there is nothing wrong in pointing out when the complaints are put as as a diversionary tactic. I think you may be getting the knack of this forum at long last. Anyone can say what they want. Anyone else can tell them to go and fuck themselves. Seemples!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:32 AM

I did not "try to make it about me" Dave.
Your post was silly whoever it was aimed at, and anyone is free say so.

There is nothing wrong with complaining about bullying and abuse, and nothing wrong with quoting statistical evidence in support of expressed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

Dave, you made the post, and I pointed out how silly it was.

Exactly, Keith. You jumped in with both feet on a conversation that was nothing to do with you in the first place. Do you do that in real life? You tried, once again, to make it about you when it was not. Feel free to call my comments silly if you like and I can chose to ignore or ridicule that opinion (see other thread) as I will. But don't pretend it is anything other than an argument for arguments sake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:10 AM

Steve, I agree there is no evidence either way.
Only Pete is even making a case about it.

Dave, you made the post, and I pointed out how silly it was.

You said,
"They try to distract, shout and scream about abuse and bullying, and resort to quoting 'expert' statistics."

I replied,
"They object to abusive, bullying behaviour and resort to producing hard,   objective, verifiable evidence!
The bastards!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:00 AM

"The same applies to someone who says he sees God when looking at a starry night."

Well Steve, as weak as that seems to you & me, it is exactly the type of 'evidence' that appeals to many. They say something like... "here we are, with all the universe around us, as well as birds & bees and bananas... and something must have created them." Pete uses a form of that 'proof' regularly. It is very like Dr. Johnson making fun of solipism:

"Here, from the Life of Johnson (1791), Boswell speaks, recounting Johnson's famous refutation of solipsism sans the term solipsism..."

**After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it -- "I refute it thus.""

*shrug* "Proof" just is understood differently by many, and it is very hard to change minds on such a seemingly simple idea.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 09:18 AM

"We were not arguing about the existence of God Dave.
The only person who has ever made a case for that is Pete, and he has never produced a single statistic about it."

Well I've made a case on a number of occasions, but not involving statistics. I concluded that, while there is a case for God's existence, it's incredibly wafer-thin. The chance that he exists seems vanishingly small. The case against is very simple. His existence is predicated on breaking every known law of nature. In spite of millennia of assertions, claims, witnesses, visions, writings, tradition and dictats, no evidence has ever been produced, statistical or not. All that remains is the application of reason to these facts.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 08:20 AM

Oh, good grief. My comment was in answer to one made by Steve earlier. This irritating aside happened when you decided to jump in with both feet and respond to a comment that was nothing to do with you in the first place. It is all up there for everyone to see.

And you say you do not turn threads to be about you...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 08:15 AM

Dave, YOU said we were arguing.

You said " I asked where the hard, objective, verifiable evidence was for the existence of god. Which is what this argument is about. "

I decided to "make an issue about it" because you were complaining about good forum behaviour.
You complained about people who object to abusive and bullying behaviour, and who "resort" to hard evidence, i.e. "expert statistics."

What is wrong with people who do that Dave?
I think Mudcat would be better with more of those and fewer of the abusive bullies who can not support their assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 07:59 AM

Just goes to show how wrong you can be then doesn't it Keith. We were not arguing at all, I was commenting on things that had nothing to do with you but you decided to make an issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 07:52 AM

We were not arguing about the existence of God Dave.
The only person who has ever made a case for that is Pete, and he has never produced a single statistic about it.

You complained about people (plural) who, "resort to quoting 'expert' statistics." and who object to bullying and abuse.

Hence my reply,

"They object to abusive, bullying behaviour and resort to producing hard,   objective, verifiable evidence!

The bastards!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

That is not what you were talking about

Yes it is.

Keith has just answered your question troll.

Back to insults again I see. Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:27 AM

Why the sky is NOT completely filled with light is what I meant.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:24 AM

The problem with these discussions is that if someone like pete says that evolution is false, it lends him a respectability he doesn't deserve if I simply say politely to him that I disagree. It isn't even honest of me. It is not that I disagree, it's that he is ignorantly wrong. The same applies to someone who says he sees God when looking at a starry night. He could just as easily say that it brings to mind the God he believes in. In the first instance I'm likely to say, in undiplomatic mode, no you don't, and don't talk such rubbish. In the second instance I'd be more inclined to tell him instead to contemplate the wonderful science behind those stars, their size, their temperatures, the planets we've found going round some of them, why they don't all look the same, the elements they're made of and how we find out, the way that we are looking into the past when we see them, what they tell us about the origin of the universe, of themselves and of ourselves, why the sky is completely filled with light, and a dozen more wondrous things, a lifetime of enthusiastic delving. Saying you see God is a way of shutting the door on grappling with the marvellous and TRUE reality. And it's quite annoying. It derails rational discussion just as readily as all the squabbling does.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:09 AM

Dave,
I asked where the hard, objective, verifiable evidence was for the existence of god. Which is what this argument is about.

That is not what you were talking about, or you would not have complained about people who "resort to quoting 'expert' statistics."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:02 AM

Keith has just answered your question troll. Please stop trying to close my thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:49 AM

I know you was Keith. You said "(they) resort to producing hard,   objective, verifiable evidence!" and I asked where the hard, objective, verifiable evidence was for the existence of god. Which is what this argument is about. What is so difficult about that?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:44 AM

There is none Dave, and I have never argued for it.

I was replying to your complaint,
"They try to distract, shout and scream about abuse and bullying, and resort to quoting 'expert' statistics."

They object to abusive, bullying behaviour and resort to producing hard,   objective, verifiable evidence!

The bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:15 AM

resort to producing hard,   objective, verifiable evidence

Go on then, Keith. I'll bite. Exactly what hard, objective, verifiable evidence do you have for the existence of god? Considering that seems to be the main thrust of disagreement here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:04 AM

They try to distract, shout and scream about abuse and bullying, and resort to quoting 'expert' statistics.

They object to abusive, bullying behaviour and resort to producing hard,   objective, verifiable evidence!

The bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 04:30 AM

Not the mindset of bigotry. That's too broadbrush. It depends on whether my conviction can be supported by evidence. If you don't agree with me that evolution happens you are deluded and I am not bigoted. Possibly undiplomatic but not bigoted.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:32 PM

McGrath, you risk being painted with the same brush I've been painted with. I'm sure you and I and DMcG agree that there's no need for rigid answers, and there's no need for condemnation. What's needed is open, respectful discussion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:48 PM

"If you agree with me you are rational. If you don't agree with me you are delusional."

That strikes me as the mindset of bigotry. A million miles away from what I would see as the essential ground of a rational discussion - "I believe my view is right, and that yours is wrong."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 09:29 PM

I can't knock the Church for helping the homeless and the immigrants. I would point out that the Church is far from alone in doing so. Not quite breast-beating material as yet.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 09:02 PM

Steve Shaw sez: we can reasonably expect to find some stuff in favour (of the Catholic Church) and some not. The deluded versus the rational.

So, Steve, are those who favor the Catholic Church the ones who are deluded?

I think it's a mixed bag. Sometimes, I'm very angry at my Catholic Church. Other times, especially in dealing with the homeless and immigrants, I've very proud.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:29 PM

Well I've yet to meet these fictitious people who wish to limit the discussion to what's bad about the Catholic Church. Thread drift is always wonderful for me. However, as the Pope is the head of that church, and as this thread is supposedly about him and his outfit, we can reasonably expect to find some stuff in favour and some not. The deluded versus the rational.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:32 PM

Time Stamp sez: We reach our true potential most of society's issues dissolve.

Keep talkin', Time Stamp. You're onto something. There should be a point where denominational differences no longer matter, where even the difference between atheists and believers doesn't matter.

I'm not sure that's beyond mysticism, but maybe that's just a matter of semantics. I think what you're seeking is what mystics seek. And of course what you say is pertinent in a discussion about the Pope. Despite the efforts of some to limit this discussion to what's bad about the Catholic Church (and I will freely admit to those shortcomings), there are those of many faiths and of no faith who seek what is beyond all that divides us.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 04:23 PM

It isn't just insults people use when they are on the ropes, Steve. They try to distract, shout and scream about abuse and bullying, and resort to quoting 'expert' statistics. You see it all the time here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:25 PM

What a load of old rubbish. I'm hardly going to go out of my way on a thread about Catholicism to condemn ISIS, am I? Do you think I should go on a thread about WWI and condemn the tactics of Stoke City FC? Maybe I should go on to a thread about
Singing Together and rail against the education cuts. In the right places I have condemned ISIS. Though what it has got to do with this God only knows.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 01:01 PM

You seem to be more upset by the Joe's of this world teaching their children about "goodness" than you do about the head choppers of ISIS.

I don't think I have ever heard you condemn these lunatics in the terms you use to Joe, as I said, your chagrin is ideologically based.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 12:05 PM

And I haven't seen a single person here trying to stamp out religion. We militant atheists tend to espouse far more freedom of thought than many people of faith, old chap. We view the abuse perpetrated by over-zealous believers in a slightly less kindly light, admittedly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 12:01 PM

Most of the stuff I've learned that has actually stayed in my head is stuff I've learned for myself. If you think you've tried and failed with me, have another go. Try to not give up explaining half way through. Get me going and I'll grab the rest. I think the problem we have here is your apparent inability to articulate your ideas clearly. By all means carry on insinuating that I'm too thick to get it. My head may be thick but my hide is even thicker.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:44 AM

Tell you what, Mr Stamp. Your posts may seem cryptic but I would live with that any day above the craptic one that preceded it!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:55 AM

Steve, Would parables be better for you..ducks flying grotty slipper.
      No riddles, in all seriousness, People who can breathe through any pre conceived notions and their shit and genuinly interested can see this. What you're asking me is, how can I see this without experiencing it. I can't currently help you personally with that.I've tried and failed. If you relax go looking you will see what I have pointed to.Working stuff out yourself is far healthier than being told something. Try it I'm sure Carl Sagan would've approved. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:17 AM

When we propose to stamp out religion, as a few here do, we must take into account that we will be stamping on a very large section of society who believe in the "goodness" analogy and who are not fundamentalist in any degree.
We will also be stamping on a very large section of society which sees religion as a steadying influence a braking system on those who would push society too far...too quickly.

It all comes back to advancing "liberal" ideology and the Christian religion is seen as a huge impediment to that end,
I mention the Christian religion, because Western "liberals" focus on its destruction, while ignoring the actions of groups who are wildly fundamentalist in nature, destroying, beheading and burning alive all in their path.
Western "liberals" are backed by a powerful and persuasive media which now constitutes the true government of so called liberal and democratic nations....their actions are similar to those of forum members who tried to silence and intimidate all who dared to oppose their ideology......thankfully one small victory for "goodness" and common sense ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

All long threads tend to go all over the place, but the Pope is a a Catholic and most of the discussions have centred around Catholicism. Ish. I am quite interested in being educated about your notions of consciousness but I've also got a one a-track mind and I can't cope with being spoken to in riddles!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:34 AM

The thread has been all over the place 8) You can't get the big picture in regards to religion/ Spiritual practices etc without taking in to account what I was talking about.. imo of course,well it's not just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:18 AM

No all I'm intersted in is what physically happens to the human body when people experience this.

Well, may I suggest you start your own thread about it if that is all you are interested in. WTF has it got to do with the Pope in America? If it is all you are interested in you must be as pissed off with some of the posters on this thread as I am!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:10 AM

What I'm talking about transcends mystical, Dtg. It's a place where all that sort of stuff disolves is understood and irrelevant.
      No all I'm intersted in is what physically happens to the human body when people experience this. I want all labels/misunderstandings stripped from it. I want it mapped as far as we humanly can and it acknowledged. Simples really ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:49 AM

You see, Time stamp, there you go again with discussing your mystic realities that only a few know and are an indisputable fact to those who reach their true potential. Now, as it happens, I know what you are hinting at but, for heavens sake, get a grip man. Stop going for the Maharishi Yogi act and just tell people what you mean. But expect to be told that you are doing the the work of the devil by some ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:37 AM

I find myself in the position of being on board with most of what Steve says,I also agree with most of what Joe says. Although asking Joe to defend the indefensible is a cheap lazy shot. Most of the debate here is decades out of date,yer of your time fellas. Future generations will grasp this nettle, currently en mass we're not up to it. I'm Obviously not talking about the God/Source 'thang but the consciousness potential of each of us.
         We reach our true potential most of societies issues disolve. Yes I may be a a dreamer but I'm ...blahblah.
         You see what I wanted to discuss is a reality that many many experience and always have done down through the ages, that's an indisputable fact. Inconvenient I know, but we have to get to grips with it and at least understand it a bit better, instead of hiding from it. Peek a Boo ! ..Or ignore and carry on, where collective human existence is the energetically repressed toxic mess it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:25 AM

Respectful would have been better.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 05:35 AM

Squabbling about balls of dividing cells, when exactly life starts, etc., is a time-honoured way of getting nowhere. The real issue, one which the Catholic hierarchy dishonestly skirts around, is how to provide the education, the respect for self and others, and the contraceptive means and advice for both men and women, so that women don't find themselves needing abortions in the first place. Instead, every obstacle is put in the way, then, when it happens, the sanctimonious moralising begins. It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic. The Catholic church is the very last outfit that should expect to have a respectable hearing on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 05:35 AM

And as for narrow minds, evolutionism excludes the design , creation explanation a priori ........can't allow".....a divine foot in the door..."

It's not narrow mindedness that excludes design - it's simply the demonstrable absence of any divine foot in the door.

You may well believe the universe was created by Santa Claus in 1974 despite the fact that a lot of us were born some time before that. You may say that reality is an illusion on the part of Satan to test our faith. That if we pass, it's all iced buns and an eternity of Cliff Richard; but if we fail, we'll be handed over to Mother Theresa and her legion of priapic priests.

You may believe Santa ordain all this; yeah, even that he came down to earth on the 9th day to be aborted from a virgin's womb whereupon his foetus fed on sewage until 12 jolly dons nailed him to a christmas tree on Xmas morn whereupon the penguin wept in her piety even as Mother Theresa withheld the paracetamol.

You may believe this to be the reason Santa created the 14 moons of Neptune and named each of them after an apostle; and that he created the tardigrades to watch over the faithful as they sleep, whilst He made eye-worms to torment heretics & homosexuals whom he also created; both male and female created he them.

Happily, faith has nothing to do with empirical reality. Best we keep the two things separate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:23 PM

As I said earlier, I don't think I can define life, Greg - but I knows it when I sees it. Cells multiplying, even cancerous cells, are a pretty good indication of life, but not an adequate definition of life.

If one has cancerous cells, one would be advised to have them removed. A fetus is also life, and contains multiplying cells. I would suggest that the decision to remove a fetus, is different from the decision to remove cancerous cells. Both decisions should not be taken lightly, but there are different implications in these different decisions.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 08:18 PM

And that definition of "life" is what again, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 07:26 PM

Well, Joe, I haven't actually met any of these born-again chappies. As an atheist, I've been happy to engage with thoughtful fellows like DMcG and McGrath. I disagree with them like buggery and none of us pulls our punches. But you're different. You're defensive and incredibly worried and, as Dave describes and as I can attest, you resort to silly insults. Once again, I note your risible use of the word "blathering", which makes me think that you think you're beaten. You're being seriously taken on and you show every sign of not being used to being lured out of your comfort zone. Tough. Welcome to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM

I actually like atheists who are interested in civil discussion, Steve. They're usually open-minded and tolerant. It's only the born-again atheists in constant attack mode that I find to be blathering. You know, the ones who play loose with the truth.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 06:43 PM

Well, Dave, St Joe doesn't much care for atheists. I get that. For millennia, it's been impossible to criticise religion unless you don't mind being burned at the stake, having your head cut off, being ostracised from society, being honour-killed or being thrown into a dungeon. This meant that religion enjoyed a rather cosy and invulnerable position. Of course, that has now changed. Nowadays, we can have militant atheists who are actually free to speak their minds. No-one is likely to be killed. But for Joe and his ilk, this has rather put them on the back foot. They have several options. They could ignore us. They could take us on with honest argument. Or they can flail around and insult us, as Joe is inclined to do (and don't I only know it), realising in their panic that they have been, er, sussed, big time. That their theology and instruments of control are actually built on foundations of sand.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 06:32 PM

"But if the scientists are creation believing it is ok to abuse them is it ?"

Yes, of course! If they're "creation believing" they're not scientists - they are religious maniacs who mimic scientific jargon in order to give the bullshit that they spout a veneer of respectability..

" ... but as it is a word used by scientists of either persuasion ..."

There are NOT two 'persuasions' of scientists!There are real scientists and there are religious nutters who are pissed off because science doesn't support their mindless dogma.