BS: The Pope in America

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:28 AM

I'll try again (after you've tried for the third time to move the goalposts.

The original posts was:" Steve, If there's one thing God's not very good at, it's persuading his various flocks to keep the peace"

to which you categorically stated

" Not His job. We are not puppets. We have free will"

You said it was not his job, no one else. My question was and still is how do you KNOW.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:20 AM

If God created us, he created us with free will.
We can choose to be good or bad, nice or nasty, believers or unbelievers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:08 AM

Move swiftly on, Keith. God may be watching you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:07 AM

Once again you are trying to move the goalposts. Twice in as many posts.

You made a statement and only you said it was not his job, now tell me how you KNOW that to be the fact.

Tell me how you know that, answer my question if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:00 AM

Does anyone claim that we are all God's puppets?
No.
So what have I said that either of you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

Gotta be careful, Guest. God can't be entirely ruled out. I know this because I apply the scientific method to him, and that strategy as we know doesn't deal in certainties. He may be as likely as a green cheese moon, fairies at the bottom of the garden or a duff bottle of Hirondelle, but one can never say never. I must admit that it could be a bit of a bugger when my final curtain is rung down if I then have to face him. My only defence would be that at least I've always tried to use the brain he gave me to work things out in an honest manner and not listen too much to fools. It might not work, which could be slightly problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:27 AM

A couple of things, Keith. First, understand sarcasm. Second, if I talk about God persuading, I'm not talking about his denying free will, am I? Suppose I see you heading for a public lavatory in Hertford that I know hasn't been cleaned for weeks and is full of germs and I try to persuade you not to use it, but you go and use it anyway. I haven't negated your free will, have I? Typical Keith. Deliberate mischaracterisation gets us enmeshed in a load of nonsense. Move swiftly on, Keith. You're USCWAP.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:23 AM

Once again you are trying the move the goalposts. The post in question was:

" Steve,
If there's one thing God's not very good at, it's persuading his various flocks to keep the peace.

Not His job.
We are not puppets.
We have free will"

You made a statement and only you said it was not his job, now tell me how you KNOW that to be the fact.

As for Steve, we know he doesn't believe in your god so how could he possibly be presumptive about him/her/it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM

Not puppets, Keith? Those blokes who parade around in high masses wearing colourful "vestments" and peculiar hats, clanking a hollow ball on a chain that gives out smelly smoke and all chanting the same pidgin Latin, not puppets? You could be right. I've looked hard but I've yet to spot the strings.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:11 AM

Rag,
No Keith you are describing what PEOPLE have said gods role should be.

No.
I was replying to Steve who said that God was in the business of "persuading his various flocks to keep the peace."

Why not criticise Steve for his presumption to know what God does?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 06:06 AM

I suppose it's more than likely that large numbers of those who were circumcised at birth don't bother as much with baby Jesus as I seemed to be implying. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:55 AM

Though I do find it amazing when I think about it how all that serious academic study of belief that goes on in theology can still end up with someone looking up to the sky and imagining that they are somehow seeing God. What you're actually seeing is the moon, the planets the stars and the galaxies, all of which we've gone a long way towards explaining after centuries of hard work, wrong notions, blind alleys and religious interference. There is so much more to find out, and the quest is a wonderful and entrancing one that has fired human curiosity and imagination like nothing else. But then we stick God in there, the most dismal, abject and disappointing bolt-on that it's possible to conjure up. Well, with him there we might as well stop wondering about it all. Just spend the rest of our lives wondering about him instead. And there's plenty to wonder about. And no answers. The reality is at least a million times more wonderful. Or twenty times anyway. OK, I'm humble, as you know, so maybe only eight times more.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:53 AM

No Keith you are describing what PEOPLE have said gods role should be.

You have nothing from god to say what he/she/it thinks about it.

The entirety of your rules (and the rules of any religion) are made by PEOPLE not by a god.

If perchance you have any evidence to refute this I'm sure I will listen attentively.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:38 AM

It's akenaton you should be telling that to, Keith, not me. The consideration don't really apply in my case if you think about it.

Akenaton, I was of course taking the Mick out of your sloppy use of English. But there's a slightly serious side to your intervention. The Godly concept, as you rightly say, is not so simple. Neither is the language of James Joyce or Shakespeare, which is why we tend to postpone their study until the children are quite a bit older. But the complicated concept of God can't wait that long (and complicated it is: people study it for years in seminaries and you can even get degrees in it. Ask Joe, he'll tell you). Children simply have to be incorporated very early, by being baptised or circumcised practically at birth. Then, as soon as their schooling starts, they have to sing childish hymns and say childish prayers to baby Jesus (putting their free will on hold, of course). As they grow older, the more complicated bits kick in, especially the parts that tell us what miserable, guilty wretches we all are and how the only possible salvation is keep the club rules and worship Jesus. At least we're allowed to let go of Santa.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:28 AM

I am describing Christian belief Rag.
Other faiths also acknowledge that humans have free will.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:25 AM

How do you know what gods job is????

Have you ever seem him/her/it.

Have you ever had a conversation with him/her/it.

Do you know of any concrete evidence of him/her/it.

Surely you are playing god yourself by deciding what the role should or should not be.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:09 AM

Steve,
If there's one thing God's not very good at, it's persuading his various flocks to keep the peace.

Not His job.
We are not puppets.
We have free will.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 04:56 AM

I doubt that you could have had much belief in god at three years old, the concept is not as simple as you would like to believe, just as the concept of Santa Claus is not as simple as it is portrayed by the commercial media.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 04:32 AM

Well I can look at a statue of Bill Shankly and see God. I hope that Chelsea fans (poor deluded fools) can see that it's OK either way.

Perhaps someone can tell us if there's anything more dumbed down than a notion than the whole universe can be explained by a supernatural being who defies every rule there is, who has never been seen, for whom there's no evidence and who can't be explained. His fan club contains some pretty dodgy characters as well!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 03:27 AM

Shimrod, where I live, I CAN look up at the night sky and see God. Our clear, black night sky makes me pause and ponder. I see God there. Some people don't. But we're both seeing the same thing. And it's OK either way. That's the lesson I hope people could learn from this thread.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:03 AM

Has Steve reached his twenty posts yet, so he can post one message that makes sense? His fixation on that number twenty certainly proves my contention that he's a literalist.
I think he's starting to foam at the mouth...

I wonder if he could accept and respect religion if it were dumbed down to his specifications...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:55 AM

I know that you're ignoring me, Pete. Is it because I was a bit rude to you or because you can't answer the various questions I put to you? Of course because I was rude to you, you've got an excuse for not responding to my questions but I think you're not responding to me because you can't answer my questions - but hey ho - see if I care!

Anyway, you wrote:

"I have no doubt that the moon is there. By the simple experiment of looking up at night. Yes it is true, it is observationaly verified. And I can repeat the experiment most nights. It is testable, ..."

But Pete (are you there, Pete?) you can't "look up at night" and see God, can you? And God is not observationally verified, is He, Pete?

"The past is gone, and the data left behind is subject to interpretation. Historical science cannot be verified conclusively either way.   However, one side may be able to demonstrate where the other sides theory does not work in the light of observational, experimentally vErified science.....and I think creationists are achieving this quite a lot."

Of course data is subject to interpretation, you silly person! But "I believe that God did it because I really, really want to believe that God did it" is not a scientifically valid interpretation! And creationists are achieving nothing except tying themselves in knots in a vain attempt to confirm their preconceptions.

Finally, Pete, could you find your way clear to letting us know what is wrong with basing one's arguments on authority? And when you cite the 'work' of creationists and what's written in the Bible, aren't you basing your 'arguments' on authority?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 10:18 PM

And now for a Musical Interlude

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 07:43 PM

Looking up at the moon is not an experiment. When a scientist repeats an experiment or sets up controls he or she does indeed hope to get some consistency, otherwise either the null hypothesis prevails or else the procedure has flaws that must be addressed. Verification comes from corroboration. From just looking up at it, the moon could be a rather large illuminated contraption half a mile above ground with an intricate internal lighting system that mimics phases and occasional eclipses. The whole shebang could be a hoax perpetrated by clever aliens. A sort of celestial Trojan horse, out of which hundreds of little green men will all surge one day to come and get you. Now you can look up at the moon every night for years and your huge number of repeat observations will fail to enlighten you further. You have to do more. You have to be curious and find some ways of getting more information to support your quite reasonable hypothesis that the moon appears to be a big rocky shiny thing that goes round the earth. You have to do some thinking to explain why it changes shape every night. Do some measurements and timings. Why does it lag by almost an hour a day? Get some technology to amplify your eyes. Send a rocket up to land on it to make measurements. Send up some astronauts, even better. Bring back some rocks. It's brilliant, all of it. It's science. Of course, you could ditch all that, cut out all the curiosity and the thinking, and declare that God put it there. Sorry for the bloody text block.

You've made a good start. You think the moon is genuine, not green cheese or put there by aliens. Those are very unlikely explanations and you can say that just by looking at it. There is still a chance that they may be correct, though. You have to do the science, not to prove them wrong, but to find a way towards the true answer. If you're absolutely convinced that it's made of green cheese, you stop right there. Nothing will ever get you to move on. What stunts you is that in the same way you refuse to do the science in your thinking about God. Compared to the moon, he hasn't got a chance. At least you can see the moon, that there's something there to work on. You choose the most unlikely, outlandish and unreasonable explanation for the world you can think of, then you refuse to investigate whether something else can get you nearer the truth. That's what's up. I can't really discuss science properly with you because you've closed off your mind to it. Too bad.   Well I've done God and I've done science and I can tell you which has been a damn sight more fun and more edifying. But you won't believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 07:07 PM

I'm also wondering how come God or gods failed to calm the wild beast inside al Shabaab, Boko Haram, the Taliban, al Qaeda, IS, the Crusaders, the Catholics and Protestants in theThirty Years War and the religious wars in 16th century France, the combatants in the Lebanese civil war and the Israel-Palestine conflict and the factions in the civil war in Sudan. Then there's the Muslim Conquests and the constant warfare in Spain in medieval times, and, well, lots really. If there's one thing God's not very good at, it's persuading his various flocks to keep the peace.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 07:01 PM

Full marks , Steve ,for creative flourishes in your wordy response. I have no doubt that the moon is there. By the simple experiment of looking up at night. Yes it is true, it is observationaly verified. And I can repeat the experiment most nights. It is testable, some have even been there. Evolution , ie, microbes to man story is not observable, testable and repeatable subject of experiment. The past is gone, and the data left behind is subject to interpretation. Historical science cannot be verified conclusively either way.   However, one side may be able to demonstrate where the other sides theory does not work in the light of observational, experimentally vErified science.....and I think creationists are achieving this quite a lot.             And, again Steve, do you think that matter and energy is all there is in the universe ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:03 PM

Yes, that true. For example, I believed in God at the age of three but couldn't write a damn thing until I was five.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 05:38 PM

People believed in gods or A god long before they learned to write, or influence others through writing.....it had more to do with survival than anything else....and a way of calming the wild beast within us, the reason we bother to construct a society.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 05:13 PM

It depends on whether you think eight is about a million.

Still, if we continue to discuss Joe's terrible comprehension of both English and arithmetic, I'm sure we'll eventually reach a million posts. Or thereabouts. Maybe even more, twenty perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM

I'm sure you've been told a million times not to exaggerate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:51 PM

So if I said you've posted a million times that would be making a false accusation, but if I said about a million, that would be OK? I'd put it the other way round.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 03:07 PM

Are you Joe's uncle, Kevin? He said twenty posts, not about twenty posts, not it seems like twenty posts, not it feels like twenty posts, not shit too many posts again, not a ton more posts, not blimey does he never stop posting, not gawd I've lost count of his infernal posts. He said TWENTY posts and he tried to back it up by doing a not-so-subtle time shift on his counting period. I honestly don't care any more. Joe made an arse of himself on that one and fine if you want to join him!

As for my text blocks, sorry about that. I type fast but one-fingered and I tend to do all the revising when I'm done. There are plenty enough glitches to fix without having to split it into paragraphs as well and my eyesight is quite poor when it comes to the little text box on this forum. I've been bollocked for it for years. Must try harder. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 02:26 PM

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Noctes - PM
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:19 PM

Also as a favor to my poor eyes could break up those large text blocks?

Seconded!

If I were to that you have posted a million times, Sreve, that would clearly mot bbe about numvbers. Nor was Joe's "twenty posts" who's counting? Both numbers would just be a way of saying "frequently"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 12:50 PM

None of these stories and writings have much scientific value, but they offer infinite wisdom to those who approach them humbly.

All of these stories were made up by human beings more often than not to justify the merciless oppression of other human beings. There is no inherent wisdom here, infinite or other otherwise, just cunningly contrived narratives with no intrinsic value whatsoever other than in helping us to appreciate just how good we are at a) making this shit up in the first place and b) convincing ourselves it is true in the second - much less putting men, women & children to the sword if they happen to see things differently. Their ultimate value, of course, lies in enabling us to see that, as with the stories, we made up the characters too; we invented every god and demon, even unto the God of Abraham himself, flinging our stories into the darkness of our ignorance and only managing to make things even darker.

We approach them humbly if only to remember that darkness, which lingers even unto our times, in which people are routinely savaged, maimed, tortured, oppressed, persecuted - and all because of a bunch of stories we made up long ago - a bunch of lies basically, lived with in lieu of truth, because we knew (just as many of us today have elected to know) no better.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 08:49 AM

"Very few, if any, of us on here have personally gathered data on evolutionary biology - so we have no choice but to rely on authority"

I have!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:57 AM

Joe Offer tries to depict science as aloof from imagination and storytelling. That's one little step away from creationism, despising of all things science. Not only is that arrant nonsense, he is also trying to deflect from the substantive point that the only thing wrong with myths and stories is the way that people with certain predilections abuse them by telling their followers that they should believe that they are true. The ancient Greek art, poetry and sculptures and all the rest, including the mythology, are wonderful in their own terms and are pinnacles of human culture. Culture and science are the twin peaks of humanity's endeavours. But you are misusing your own cultural icons, which is a tragedy. You talk about being open-minded. But your faith does not teach you to be open-minded. Precisely the opposite. The only way you could even remotely claim to be open-minded would be to say that you are open-minded within the extremely constricting ring fence of the bottom line of your belief system. You tell children that there is certainly a God in heaven, that the virgin birth happened, that Jesus worked miracles, that he came back to life, that there was a real Noah's ark and a real flood (at least some of you!), that we are all stained with original sin unless we sign up, etc., and to make it palatable you dress it all up with pretty details about Angel Gabriel, shepherds, wise men and King Herod killing babies, all of which did not actually happen. This is all fine as long as every child is told from the outset that none of these things is true but that the stories can tell us good things (I suppose even Harry Potter can do that, at least if it only means that someone reading it isn't actually shooting at somebody). I read all of the Aesop's Fables that I could get my hands on when I was a little lad and they fired my imagination and probably instilled some ideas about morality in me, but I always knew that they were just stories, told by a wise man. The difference is that your stories are promoted as the truth, and the people telling them are not wise men but men like popes, bishops, priests and cardinals (and an evil old Romanian nun, lest I forget) with seriously ulterior motives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:24 AM

Right, Joe. Here's what you said.

-Every once in a while, Steve Shaw posts a snippet of something that makes me think he's almost on the brink of understanding all this. Example: What makes it all even worse is that you only tell them all this because you happened to be born here. Had you been born in India the story would be different....[etc.]

But then he posts another twenty posts that show he still doesn't have a clue.

Now as an aficionado of English as she is both spoken and written, I'm just going to hang on to that little word "then" in that last bit there. To me, and to anyone else with even a vague mastery of this fine language of ours, that little "then" denotes something to follow in temporal terms Steve's quoted "snippet." So I went back and counted the number of posts I made in this thread between the snippet in question and Joe's post referring to it. It is eight. Just the eight, Joe.

Joe, you accused me a little while back of not understanding plain English or something, playing the dunce, etc.,something along those lines. Well I must say I ought to thank you for this oh so erudite illustration of your far superior powers over mine apropos of our beloved tongue (it's sacred to me). An alternative explanation has just occurred to me, however. You have deliberately presented us with a myth about my postings out of which we are to glean deeper truths. As eight can become twenty, so one God can become three people. Saying the mythological twenty instead of the truthful eight is so much more honest Ah yes, I can see it now. That'll be it. Thus endeth Joe's lesson in how to present deep and sacred truths. Tell fibs and expect the flock to dig among them for the truth! Cle-ver!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 02:03 AM

"Can you tell us why it is true, without falling back on the numbers of academics who agree with you as the being the reason ?"

Why are you so against arguments based on authority, Pete? Did you read "arguments based on authority are BAD!" in 'Creation.com' and then decide to parrot it without (as usual) thinking it through? Very few, if any, of us on here have personally gathered data on evolutionary biology - so we have no choice but to rely on authority. Have you, personally, gathered any data on evolutionary biology, Pete. If you have, perhaps you might like to summarise it for us ... ?

Of course your ramblings rely completely on (what you believe to be) authoritative sources i.e. the completely biased nonsense in 'Creation.com' and the Bible!

"as regarding evidence for God as a scientific experiment, there will never be enough to satisfy the committed atheist,..."

If God exists then performing 'experiments' on Him are almost certainly out of the question, just as we can't perform experiments on the Galaxy in Andromeda. Nevertheless, we can observe the Galaxy in Andromeda and measure its properties. To date, no-one has observed God ... or measured His properties. The "committed atheist" is still waiting for ANY evidence for the existence of God!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:47 PM

Joe sez: But then he posts another twenty posts that show he still doesn't have a clue."

Steve sez: Well, you clearly don't have much of a clue about arithmetic, or for that matter honesty. In fact, between that post and this one, I've posted eight times.

I'm still counting, and it's past twenty now and he still holds tight to his "There Is No God But Science" theory....

And I combined a couple of his posts so they'd all be identified by name. Otherwise, there'd be two more.

---

So, as I was saying about these sacred stories or myths (although Steve's rules don't allow me to use the word sacred). So, as I was saying, the various cultures "believe" or "hold" or "hold sacred" these stories or myths. For the most part, they think of these stories as true, but they do not hold onto them as tightly as Steve and the 20/21st century fundamentalists would have one think. These stories form the context for their exploration into the meaning of the undefinable mysteries of life that surround us - life, love, death, peace, and the reason why things are. Again, these explorations are believed, but for the most part not held tightly.

When we look at the sacred stories of various cultures, we encounter many generations of wisdom; and a respectful study of these sacred stories can lead us to a profound respect for the wisdom of other peoples.

I thought Egyptian mythology was just governmental hoo-hah of the pharaohs...until I went to Egypt. When I saw the paintings and carvings and temples and pyramids in their home environment, I saw something much deeper. I was particularly fascinated by the Horus-Isis-Osiris myth (click). With the help of the Beatles and others, many of us have become familiar with the sacred stories about Gautama Buddha and the wisdom that has flowed from that myth. And there is much to learn from the poetry and practices of Sufism, and from the Qur'an, if one studies them with an open mind. And of course, the Judeo-Christian Bible offers much wisdom, although Europe currently seems to have a self-loathing that does not allow it to appreciate the stories it once held sacred.

None of these stories and writings have much scientific value, but they offer infinite wisdom to those who approach them humbly.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Noctes
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:19 PM

Also as a favor to my poor eyes could break up those large text blocks?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:17 PM

Mr. Shaw, what ever they're paying you...

it's not enought ( - :

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 09:01 PM

Don't mention it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Noctes
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 08:43 PM

Was worth a shot boss
Keep up the good-fight

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 08:26 PM

Testing, testing..

Yes, I can confirm that the guest posts were me, not some nasty militant atheistic charlatan...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 08:23 PM

"Every once in a while, Steve Shaw posts a snippet of something that makes me think he's almost on the brink of understanding all this. Example: What makes it all even worse is that you only tell them all this because you happened to be born here. Had you been born in India the story would be different. In the Australian outback, different again. In Iran, different yet again. To you, though, these considerations are minor inconveniences. But you have the neck to convince them that they will find deeper truths and happiness if only they espouse this nonsense. It's in your heart, it's sacred to you, you don't need to defend it, etc. Yet it's indefensible, even if you're a believer.

But then he posts another twenty posts that show he still doesn't have a clue."

Well, you clearly don't have much of a clue about arithmetic, or for that matter honesty. In fact, between that post and this one, I've posted eight times.

"It's true that every culture has sacred stories, sacred myths, that form the basis of the religious practices of that culture. And while these stories/teachings/myths may not be "true" in Steve's semi-scientific understanding of the word "true," these stories hold and convey profound truth drawn from many generations of the wisdom of that particular culture."

Well here we go again with Joe's favourite buzzword "sacred", clearly intended to invest his statements with a veneer of authority that is meant to keep us at arm's length. I bet he wishes we still had heresy laws. That would keep us pesky purveyors of evidence and reason at bay!

"As I've said before (and Steve has not responded), Europeans tend to disregard and destroy the wisdom and religious practices of every culture they have conquered, attempting to replace such "primitive" thought with their own "enlightened" thinking"

Well, Joe, just replace "Europeans" with "Catholic imperialists" there and you have it about right!

"...there is much wisdom in the world and through the centuries that is not in the realm of scientific inquiry."

No there is not. All the wisdom in the world (to use your language, not the way I'd put it, but hey) comes from science and culture, reason and evidence. There is no wisdom to be gained from delusions and lies, none whatsoever, however "sacred" you hold those things to be. They simply get in the way of wisdom, stunt the mind (as you frequently demonstrate, for example with your nonsense about evolution) and make the world a much worse place. You can have some wisdom predicated on stories and mythology, as long as you fully recognise them as stories and mythology, but not only do you not recognise that, you pass the nonsense on to your children as truth. Mother Teresa and John-Paul II espoused your brand of wisdom, lest we forget, not to speak of those popes who variously espoused antisemitism and who were in hock with Hitler and Mussolini.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 07:52 PM

"Not sure how you see the difference between evolution, and the theory thereof, except that with the theory the details have to be moved around or deleted when new data arises , which gives you the liberty to claim that though the theory is continually revised, evolution itself is true. Which brings us back to the question, how do you know it is true ? . And as you say , Steve, anyone who says something is true without evidence should be sacked.   I am glad to hear that you allowed some lea way for doubt in your teaching days , but you seem very sure now. Can you tell us why it is true, without falling back on the numbers of academics who agree with you as the being the reason ?"

You are rather confused, I fear. There is a world of difference between a phenomenon, not a scientific principle, and the theory that explains it, a scientific principle. Let's try a simple example. It's been a lovely, sunshiny day today in Bude, better than most days we've had all summer. As I type this, there is a beautiful last-quarter moon ascending in the south-eastern sky. Now that moon is definitely there, unless I'm hallucinating (I checked with Mrs Steve, and yes, she could see it too). The moon is true, and only a demented fool would deny it (though you never know on Mudcat). The moon is not a scientific principle, any more than the fact that I possess two testicles is a scientific principle (don't ask me to prove it). Ancient people looked at the moon and must have wondered what it was, and probably came up with plausible but (to us) off-beam ideas. Later, early astronomers worked out a pattern in the moon's phases and timings over long periods, put two and two together, and came up with better ideas about how far away it was, how big it was and how its apparent motion could be explained. Then telescopes were invented, and we got to see features on the moon that we needed to try to explain. Some of those explanations were probably wrong (Patrick Moore was convinced that the moon's craters were mostly volcanic, for example). Then men walked on the moon (though my dad thinks it was all staged in Nevada, but hey ho). They brought back samples that enabled us to discover more about the moon's structure and history, though probably not really enough. There are lots of other ways of finding out stuff about the moon, such as studying closely its orbit with sophisticated modern instruments and viewing it during eclipses. We can bounce laser beams off the moon and obtain extremely accurate measurements of its various properties. A big picture eventually builds up that enables us to draw up theories about the moon's structure and origin. In spite of all this, there is still an extremely remote possibility that the moon is made of green cheese. Good, honest science can't help that, and holds up its hands and admits that proof can't be possible. At that point, the superb human qualities of evidence-seeking and reason kick in, at least if you're a scientist. Every time, we find that the best explanations (the ones that already have all the evidence needed to do all the explanatory heavy lifting) are more convincing, more rational, more imaginative, more inspiring and more wonderful than any of the wacky, mind-limiting alternatives. So it is, in precisely the same way, with evolution. Evolution is not a scientific principle, as much as you'd like to turn it into one in the cause of your nefarious and dishonest arguments. Evolution is true. It happens. Only demented fools deny that. Not even Joe Offer and popes deny it, though they get it lamentably wrong in their valiant but misguided efforts to reconcile it with their religion. But the explanation of evolution, the theory that Darwin delivered, is just that, an explanation. Those with open minds can't avoid seeing that there is far too much evidence for evolution for it to be lightly dismissed in favour of creationism. Now I'm trying very hard to accommodate your problems with science. In my head, I call it "doing a Bill D". Within the next four or five posts to this thread, I'm almost certainly going to wonder why I bloody bothered. But, for the second time, hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 06:49 PM

Gee, Noctes, that fisheaters.com could make me swear off fish (and Catholicism) for a lifetime!

Every once in a while, Steve Shaw posts a snippet of something that makes me think he's almost on the brink of understanding all this. Example: What makes it all even worse is that you only tell them all this because you happened to be born here. Had you been born in India the story would be different. In the Australian outback, different again. In Iran, different yet again. To you, though, these considerations are minor inconveniences. But you have the neck to convince them that they will find deeper truths and happiness if only they espouse this nonsense. It's in your heart, it's sacred to you, you don't need to defend it, etc. Yet it's indefensible, even if you're a believer.

But then he posts another twenty posts that show he still doesn't have a clue. It's true that every culture has sacred stories, sacred myths, that form the basis of the religious practices of that culture. And while these stories/teachings/myths may not be "true" in Steve's semi-scientific understanding of the word "true," these stories hold and convey profound truth drawn from many generations of the wisdom of that particular culture. It's a challenge for people of one religious culture to accept and learn from the wisdom of another religious culture, but it does happen - and it seems to be happening more and more in the current age. I wonder if it will ever happen that our "born-again" atheists, Christians, Muslims, or whatever will be able to learn from religious thinking of various cultures with the realization that they can learn from others without being required to espouse their belief systems.

As I've said before (and Steve has not responded), Europeans tend to disregard and destroy the wisdom and religious practices of every culture they have conquered, attempting to replace such "primitive" thought with their own "enlightened" thinking - just as they have politicized and destroyed the ancient wisdom of their own culture. Alliance with European government has not done Christianity any favors, and Christianity is finally learning that lesson after being in bed with government for most of the last 1500 years or more.

As I've said so many times before, there is much wisdom in the world and through the centuries that is not in the realm of scientific inquiry. It is not in conflict with science, but it is in a different realm.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 06:10 PM

Not sure how you see the difference between evolution, and the theory thereof, except that with the theory the details have to be moved around or deleted when new data arises , which gives you the liberty to claim that though the theory is continually revised, evolution itself is true. Which brings us back to the question, how do you know it is true ? . And as you say , Steve, anyone who says something is true without evidence should be sacked.   I am glad to hear that you allowed some lea way for doubt in your teaching days , but you seem very sure now. Can you tell us why it is true, without falling back on the numbers of academics who agree with you as the being the reason ? .as regarding evidence for God as a scientific experiment, there will never be enough to satisfy the committed atheist, and if said atheist cannot evidence the creation of a godless universe , why should he expect the Christian to provide enough evidence for God.    However it may be worth exploring. So, a question, ....we know you say null hypothesis, but would you grant that the universe consists of more than matter and energy, or do you say that there is nothing else?.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 03:22 PM

"But you cite Galileo's house arrest, which actually happened more or less for that reason. There was no problem with his proposing a theory about planetary motion, but he insisted on saying it was true, rather than provisional, which at the time it actually was."

I'd be grateful for a link to this. I can't find it. We have to be slightly careful here to distinguish unassailably true phenomena from the theories that set out to explain them. I've been castigated so many times here for saying that evolution is true, which of course it is, as true as the fact that my left leg is next to my right leg. But the theory of evolution by natural selection, the explanation of evolution, will never be true, because scientific explanations, or theories, are never claimed to be true, for the reason that they must always be susceptible to new evidence that may lead to revision.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Noctes
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 02:15 PM

Regarding Catholic websites: fisheaters.com
Could use a shot in the arm by a guy like Joe