BS: The Pope in America

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 04:13 AM

I would consider it quite alarming that 42% of my fellow countrymen believed that god created human being in the last 10,000 years or so. Not merely from any religious perspective but more importantly from the viewpoint that the educational system of my country was so poor.

These people will have the vote, be able to have children of their own, run businesses, carry guns for goodness sake. Everything that requires a degree of education not demonstrated by believing that god created human being 10,000 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:21 AM

Young Earth Creationism is a term I've never heard in the Catholic Church. Wikipedia says "Young Earth creationism (YEC) is the religious belief that the Universe, Earth and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of God during a relatively short period, between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago." And many of these people will give you an exact date of creation, not just a rough guess of "between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago."

I suppose some people will classify me as an Old Earth Creationist, but I don't think so.

I believe in Evolution, or Evolutionism, or whatever you want to call it. I don't call myself an expert, so my level of certainty is not absolute. Nonetheless, just as the jury weighs the evidence and believes the defendant to be guilty or not guilty, I have weighed the evidence and chosen to believe in evolution (mixed with God stuff). That won't satisfy any of our born-again absolutists, on either side. But oh, well....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 11:25 PM

Steve and Greg, clear your minds for a moment and admit that the following quote posted by Greg is both false and misleading. Sez Greg: 42% of Americans hold the creationist belief that God created humanity as it currently exists a mere 10,000 years ago, according to a Gallup poll from May 2014.

Greg repeats (changing the words ever so slightly but not admitting to it): However you wish to wriggle and squirm, 42% agreed with "3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so." What is it about that answer that confuses you? It has nothing to do with "being posted thousands of times on the internet. The survey, and the results, are documented. Live with it.

Here are the facts, Greg: 42% said that the third statement came closest to their views. Admit it. That's a huge difference.

And I think the survey would have much more credibility it it offered a fourth scenario:

4. I don't know and I don't care.

I think the vast majority would choose #4. Many, many things are far more important than evolution in the minds and lives of most people.

The idea of evolution is credible to me, and it's what I taught my children. But I wouldn't lose sleep if a better theory came out tomorrow. I can go for weeks without thinking of evolution for a moment, but yet Pete sees opposition to evolution as a major aspect of his faith.

That would be a good survey question: How much do you really care about evolution?

1. My entire world would come to an end if it were proved true/untrue
   
2. It's interesting, but not as interesting as yesterday's hockey game
   
3. Not at all

Click here to go to the actual Gallup poll. Why depend on third-hand sources?

And I think "I don't know and I don't care" goes for lots of stuff in this thread. For most normal people, it's just not all that important to have possession of the absolute truth on all subjects. We know the stuff we do, and we know the stuff we're interested in. For the rest of things, it's nice to have general knowledge, but not all that important to be absolutely correct about every little thing. And those people who are concerned about being absolutely correct, are blinded so that they cannot see or understand or respect alternate perspectives. Is it more important to be correct and to stand for The Truth, than it is to be open to a variety of perspectives? I know our militant atheists don't like my calling them "born again atheists," because they really are just as rigid in their thinking as the "born again Christians" are. I keep trying to shock them into being open to a variety of perspectives. It won't hurt them.

Try being wrong on occasion, Steve and Shimrod and Raggytash - and Pete. It won't hurt you, and it may open your eyes to alternatives.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 10:24 PM

Pete...No time to create my usual long reply today... but I will say this: If you continue to use phrases like "religion of evolutionism" I may decide not to play any more.

That is a gross misrepresentation of what evolutionary theory is, and if that is truly your position, rather than just a slogan, you have abused much of the credit I have given you as a spokesman for the religious side of this discussion.

Evolution and/or Darwin and their scientific basis have NOTHING to do with the same sort of reasoning & evidence that are used in actual religious reasoning. You may believe what you will about 'creation', but don't misrepresent what science actually says and does.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 09:08 PM

It's a matter of perspective.

That is from

http://geroldblog.com/2013/01/27/humor-jokes-n-stuff-vol-2/

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 08:19 PM

people who aren't particularly worked up about these kind of things aren't liable to know much about the fossil record.

Anyone graduating from an elementary school in the U.S. (excepting those that teach Creationism) SHOULD know enough about the fossil record to know that the 10,000 year bit is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 07:39 PM

"I can't bring myself to lose much sleep about the issue of evolution, either. I just can't see it as anything to get to worked up about. If 42% of people don't know or don't care..."

Well, Joe Offer, as evolution explains all of life on Earth, including the existence of all those creeps you see in Sunday mass who've reverted to type by Sunday noon, I'd say that people who don't care are both incurious and pig-ignorant. That 42 percent really should be making you lose sleep. Unfortunately, in your case they won't, because it seems like you're one of them. You like the idea of creationism, and you don't really care to grapple with what evolution is all about. You're a nornal ignorant US Catholic, Joe. You and Pete are two cheeks of the same arse, and you couldn't put a credit card between 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 07:29 PM

Strictly speaking it would be possible for someone to go for option (3) even if they believed in evolution option (1), but thought that 10,000 years ago was about the right sort of time for pre-humans to have evolved into true humans, God-guided evolution being regarded as the method of this creation.

Not a timetable that squares with the fossil record, but people who aren't particularly worked up about these kind of things aren't liable to know much about the fossil record. They were just picking the one of the three answers that felt right to them.

So I don't think Joe is too far off in suggesting too much shouldn't be made of that poll.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 05:45 PM

If 42% of people don't know or don't care, who cares?

I do, and you should, as they're using your tax dollars to propogate horseshit and fill children's heads with nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 05:42 PM

But Greg's statement is a direct quote from a statement that appears thousands of times on the Internet, so it must be as true

Thanks for the thinly disguised gratuitous insult/personal attack Joe. Much appreciated.

However you wish to wriggle and squirm, 42% agreed with "3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so." What is it about that answer that confuses you? It has nothing to do with "being posted thousands of times on the internet. The survey, and the results, are documented. Live with it.

RE: the Koch's climate change denial exhibit and fully paid-for commercial for the petroleum industry, its not just ThinkProgress and The New Yorker that have panned the commercial, er, "exhibit" - do a little more googling and you'll be talking out of the other side of your mouth.

And have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 04:16 PM

Thank ake , but as you alluded earlier those that resort to that sort of behaviour demonstrate they are losing the argument.....so rage on , rage on....talking of which , I was reading an article today by Eugene Scott on the septic tank site....oops, skeptic tank, in which she acknowledged that in most cases when there have been debates it is usually the creationists who come out on top. She even alluded to some of the arguments the evolutionary champions were unable to answer. Of course she qualified all this by claiming that the evolutionary case takes too long to outline, and even made the daft analogy ...IMO !....of American football where the weak team occasionally gets a goal !. Very scientific , that girl. How about meeting the challenges , rather than just claiming people need more indoctrination....er, education '!    A lot of the blurb there reminded me of what I get here, perhaps it is one of the sources used here.......                Oh joe, I was introducing what I thought was a bit of lighthearted banter , not imagining that Facebook likes inform catholic teaching. It's a pity IMO, though that it is,nt formed by faithfulness to the text ..and scientific evidence demonstrating evolutionists delusion.
,.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:43 PM

Don't remember if you said ...the iDEA of...originally bill, but anyway I acknowledged that in my reply, as well as saying that believing is not the easy option very often.          Bill sez also....common and useful superstition...   I think that is known as begging the question, alternate view is that God has revealed something of himself in creation, not to mention revelation. WHIch brings me to your next claim, that children not exposed to religion will not nesecarily believe in God. You specified reason and science being taught them , and I can go with that as long as they are not taught the religion of evolutionism either. However,I think there have been studies done with children that indicate that left to themselves they look at things in creation and conclude that someone made them ( I confess not rechecked that yet) , so as I suggested , a presuppositional obvious. However if you have a source to cite that supports your claim. Please share as I want to be fair in this.    And what you say is my ...silly...idea is IMO far from that. Rather I think you are being naïve if you think law can really be truly neutral. Take for example Dawkins and co campaigning against kids being taught the options re origins. It is their religiously held atheism driving them to push to get laws to outlaw giving kids alternate views.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:26 PM

Greg_F. sez: 42% of Americans hold the creationist belief that God created humanity as it currently exists a mere 10,000 years ago, according to a Gallup poll from May 2014.

Just reading that statement from Greg, I couldn't believe it. How could 42% of Americans agree that humanity was created 10,000 years ago, and not 9,000 or 11,000? And don't the real creationists put the date at closer to 5,000 years? So, on the face, Greg's statement seemed incredible. But Greg's statement is a direct quote from a statement that appears thousands of times on the Internet, so it must be as true as Pete's belief in a Facebook page because it has thousands of "likes." As far as I can see, Greg's quote comes from an article by Yasmine Hafiz that was originally published in the Huffington Post 2 June 2014.

And Greg's quote is there, but farther down in the article, Hafiz contradicts herself. Apparently, the Gallup poll gave people three choices:

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the development and origin of human beings?
1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process.
2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process.
3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.

Note that the poll asked which answer came closest to the views held by the people responding. That means there could be a broad spectrum of understanding for each answer. I would guess that that third answer encompasses the broadest spectrum. Some of those people are dyed-in-the-wool creationists, but many don't care and don't know anything more than what Grandma told them.
But whatever the case, the poll does not show results that are as specific as Greg's quote would have us think.

And I'd guess that close to 42% of people in Great Britain don't know and don't care, either. I suppose this is a terrible thing to say about something that is so crucial to Greg and Steve and Shimrod and Pete, but I can't bring myself to lose much sleep about the issue of evolution, either. I just can't see it as anything to get to worked up about. If 42% of people don't know or don't care, who cares?

Greg also posted a link to thinkprogress.org, which attacks the Smithsonian exhibit on evolution, an exhibit funded by the infamous Koch brothers. That article is based on an article from the New Yorker about the Koch Brothers. I'll try to find time later today to read the New Yorker article, which I think is likely to be more reliable.

But I still like the exhibit, and didn't notice any attempt in it to deny climate change. I didn't read all the signs in the exhibit, though. Do people actually do that? They must be the same people who buy Playboy to read the articles...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:24 PM

I find it hard to imagine Pete's posting here has had any impact on legislation.

Shimrod, you do seem very knowledgeable about that creationist site you mention, and also of other similar, since you invariably identify that one as the source of al unwisdom. There do appear to be a fair number of them. And a lot of books too. How can you be so sure that Pete relies just on the one at the top of the list when you google "creationist sites"?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

Pete's beliefs don't affect you or society in the slightest,

Ah, but they do- when those beliefs influence legislation.

Also, one has to wonder if that particular idiocy is accepted abd embraced, what OTHER idiocies will be uncritically accepted as truth?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:23 PM

Shimrod, personal attacks like the last one on Pete are uncalled for in a debating forum......I thought with the removal of the Muskets, all that nonsense had been binned along with them.

This has been a good thread, lots of interesting posts and hardly any agro, but you are starting to sound like a bully who just wants to intimidate pete.   I remember a number of years ago when YOU were the butt of such intimidation, and a lot of posters myself included rallied round to condemn the aggressor.....maybe you don't remember that?

Pete's beliefs don't affect you or society in the slightest, this is simply a discussion a sharing of ideas, don't get things out of proportion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 09:53 AM

Oh, and Joe - that Koch Exhibit you think so much of is a climate-change denier's wet dream masquerading as one on evolution.

One Of Many Articles Here

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 09:45 AM

I suppose you Europeans think that we Americans are all primitive creationists.

Joe, you're backing the wrong horse.

42% of Americans hold the creationist belief that God created humanity as it currently exists a mere 10,000 years ago, according to a Gallup poll from May 2014. And that, I think you'll find, is far and away the greatest percentage of any country on the face of the earth with pretentions to civilization. Its also quite frightening that there are that many folks that abysmally ignorant in the U.S.

But we have a remarkable permanent exhibit at our Smithsonian Institution called the David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins.

We also have the Creation Museum in Kentucky, the Kansas State Board of "Education"[sic] and the Boards in Texas, Louisisna, and Kentucky. Fourteen (count 'em!) states use public tax dollars to fund the teaching of creationism.

It is a travesty and a disgrace.

Oh - and the Koch brothers? They're crap and the poster children for what's wrong with the electoral process in the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 08:10 AM

...and Cheez wiz!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 07:56 AM

I agree with Shimrod of course. However, yanks, don't get too big-headed. You also produced McCarthy, J Edgar Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, Dubya, Rumsfeld, Trump and the Hockey Mom.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 06:35 AM

Let's be clear, Joe, as a European I'm aware that SOME Americans are primitive creationists. But, at the same time, America has produced, and continues to produce, some of the world's greatest scientists, writers, philosophers, artists etc. I am strongly opposed to judging and condemning an entire nation on the basis of the failings (or perceived failings) of some of its citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 05:17 AM

Well, over forty percent of you are. I can sum up the posts by Kevin and Joe thus: You can believe whatever you like (agreed!) but it doesn't matter whether all or any of it can be substantiated by reason and evidence. Science with its Spock-like demands for logic needn't get in the way. We are beyond all that in our beliefs, and our God can be anything we make him, regardless of any laws of nature. Well, lads, what's there to argue with! You wish to put God in a place where's he's invulnerable to attack from the likes of me, and if I do try to apply the very human demands for reason and evidence to him, you'll just use language to shift him a bit further away still. Not very original really. It worked in the Middle Ages when I could have been beheaded for pursuing the matter, but it's looking mighty thin these days as the questions pile in on you and your answers show all the signs of desperate quasi-philosophical scrabbling

Joe Offer, you can't say what you say about God and evolution until you understand what evolution actually is. You appear to have a rather stylised and romanticated view of it. There is no way of blending creation and evolution or giving God a role. You are valiantly trying to sidestep a conflict that your Church has long realised is a losing battle and you're praying we won't notice the sidestep.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 02:49 AM

I suppose you Europeans think that we Americans are all primitive creationists. And even if we accept evolution without renouncing belief in God, you still think we're primitive. But we have a remarkable permanent exhibit at our Smithsonian Institution called the David H. Koch Hall of Human Origins. Click the link and take a look. David Koch is usually associated with right-wing causes, so it's interesting to see that he supported a major exhibit on evolution. He has also strongly supported efforts against mass incarceration, so maybe he's not such a bad guy.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 02:29 AM

I've been re-reading (or trying to re-read) some of your most recent posts, Pete (they're 'phrnimenom-inal'!). I note that you're still demanding that WE give YOU evidence for evolution. But we all know, don't we, that if we supplied you with any evidence you would reject it - or rather, you would delve about in 'Creation.com' and 'parrot' whatever they have to say about it - a tiresome ploy which we're all heartily sick of! If you REALLY want to know about the evidence for evolution (which, of course, you don't) you have to get your nose out of 'Creation.com' and read some of the vast mountain of technical and popular literature on it. But you won't do that, will you, Pete? You won't do that because you're a lazy, ignorant, pious fool who is completely incapable of thinking for himself. But we will come down on you, like the proverbial 'ton-of-bricks', when you insult generations of hard-working scientists and when you preach pernicious nonsense. In addition, I, personally, will have no compunction, whatsoever, about criticising you for your appalling, sub-literate spelling and grammar! If you have the temerity to set yourself up as some sort of 'expert' on something as sophisticated and complex as evolutionary biology, then you at least might make more of an effort to express yourself clearly!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 11:24 PM

The Church doesn't go in for scientific theories about such things these days, thank God. Once bitten, twice shy... The principle of Subsidiarity applies, which in this case means, leave it to the scientists to work out what they think is true, and provisionally accept their views.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 10:54 PM

Steve Shaw sez; What we know is that God disobeys every law of nature so far discovered

Either that, or God is the essence of every law of nature, which is what I believe.

I believe that God creates through the wonderful, natural process called Evolution. Why shouldn't God follow the laws of nature in the process, Big Bang and all?

This seems to be the general direction of Catholic thinking, although the Catholic church considers evolution to be a matter for science, not for doctrine. The official teaching of the Catholic Church on creation begins here (click). There is no doubt that Catholics believe that God created heaven and earth. Although Catholic doctrine pays great respect to scientific research into the origins of the universe, the doctrine does not specify evolution as the way the universe came to be.

If God created the laws of nature, why should God then have to violate them?

Now, I'm sure some will most likely be appalled by this Catholic belief in God as the Source of Nature, but I don't understand why. I fail to see how this belief can cause any harm. It should certainly motivate Catholics to have respect, even reverence, for our environment. This is what Pope Francis taught in his latest encyclical, Laudato Si. An encyclical is, by the way, official Church teaching. Though not considered to be infallible dogma, it is not just the Pope's personal opinion.

---

Pete sez: But, tell me, am I correct that though the pope favours evolutionary ideas, that the official church teaching is still creation ?. And I would certainly not want to argue with how many likes the Kolbe institute has on Facebook. I was merely pointing out that evolutionism does not hold full sway over all catholic thinking.
Yes, Pete, the official church teaching is still "creation," and it will always be. But the means of creation is not specified. I was educated in the 1960s in a Catholic seminary, licensed by the Vatican to teach theology. We were taught evolution.
But if you wish, you can "like" the Kolbe Center here: https://www.facebook.com/KolbeCenter/. Catholic doctrine is not determined by Facebook "likes," however.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 10:28 PM

I'd question whether it makes sense to talk about religious belief as "easy and comfortable". It all depends, and can be the reverse. But what does seem pretty clear is that it is part of our nature as human beings. By which I mean, it's how we tend to behave. Analogous to the way language works. Wherever humans are, with the exception of a very individuals, we communicate with each other in analogous ways. Noam Chomsky's theories about us having a kind of inbuilt grammar makes sense.

And it seems to me that very much the same is the case with religious beliefs and patterns of expressing them individually and socially. Which is maybe why arguments centred on truth, or rather on facts, are not really as relevant or effective ss thosemaking them assume.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 07:13 PM

"...being a Christian has often been far from easy and comfortable ."

That is irrelevant to my point,Pete. The *IDEA* is easy & comfortable. And not only that, but believing in 'heaven' means that if one does "pay with their life", they will be assured of eternal life.....just as many Muslims believe that certain actions get them into Paradise quickly. The whole idea of Heaven/Paradise makes belief popular... whether it actually works that way or not!

"...it was a presuppositional obvious."

No... it was not. It was common and a useful superstition to explain some events, but if a modern child were raised with no mention of religion and learned only reason & science, he MAY very well NOT see 'God' as obvious.

"...establishing aspects of religion into law, public policy and education, that is exactly what secular religion is doing. "

Leaving aside the silly idea of "secular religion",the whole point of law & policy is supposed to be neutral and based on reason and the needs of society. What does it even mean to accuse an institution of acting as it is supposed to act? "Secular" does not mean *opposed to religion*, but merely not USING religion as its basis.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 06:22 PM

You are quite right dmcg, it is not a determined statistic, and maybe both our biases inform our suspicions. But, tell me, am I correct that though the pope favours evolutionary ideas, that the official church teaching is still creation ?.   And I would certainly not want to argue with how many likes the Kolbe institute has on Facebook. I was merely pointing out that evolutionism does not hold full sway over all catholic thinking. But I shall try and find them and add another like, as a Protestant !

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 05:57 PM

"Well thank you gnome for that hair splitting correction to my faulty use of language. Thanks to you , all those other posters who did,nt know what I meant will understand what I,m getting at..."

Your use of language was faulty, Pete. So faulty, in fact, that it was quite hard to understand what you were "getting at". I would expect a 'distinguished expert' on evolut ... ion ...ism ... errr ... something to express himself more clearly than that!

"Christians have in the past, and sometimes still do , pay with their lives."

Often at the hands of other Christians ... ?

"Belief in God certainly has been held for thousands of years , but probably because it was a presuppositional obvious."

What??!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 04:41 PM

I suspect that many if not most rank and file Catholics worldwide take the creation account at face value. And neither is it just the supposed uneducated either. The kolbe institute is a catholic creationist body.

And, just so you know, I suspect the exact opposite, and do so very strongly indeed. But that's the great thing about suspicion, isn't it? No need to be able to demonstrate it!

As for the Kolbe Institute: they don't seem to have any claims for membership size, but their Facebook page has 2031 likes. Now, how large is the Catholic Church membership again?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 04:13 PM

Just to comment on Mcgraphs post. As I understand it, evolution is not the official position of the Catholic Church and though the current pope seems to embrace it , perhaps taking advice from other hierarchy I suspect that many if not most rank and file Catholics worldwide take the creation account at face value. And neither is it just the supposed uneducated either. The kolbe institute is a catholic creationist body. I read a review only recently of a father cleric who is well qualified in science and theology and a substantial book he wrote on the subject.                                                                              Bill suggests that religion is popular because it is comfortable and easy. In the sense that knowing your sins are forgiven and eternal life is given by the merits of Christ,s work of atonement , I suppose so, but being a Christian has often been far from easy and comfortable . Christians have in the past, and sometimes still do , pay with their lives.    Belief in God certainly has been held for thousands of years , but probably because it was a presuppositional obvious. As for establishing aspects of religion into law, public policy and education, that is exactly what secular religion is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 03:50 PM

thank you gnome for that hair splitting correction to my faulty use of language

No hair splitting at all. Evolutionism is not the sane as evolution any more than creationism is the same as creation. Tosser is pretty interchangeable with wanker though. Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 03:47 PM

Well thank you gnome for that hair splitting correction to my faulty use of language. Thanks to you , all those other posters who did,nt know what I meant will understand what I,m getting at.................good job it was you who said it's ok to take the p--- !               Steve say that evolution is a " true phenomenon that the scientific process can set about explaining ..."   If he is equivocating between natural selection and the full evolution story , he is correct about the former, but it is way short of explaining the latter. If he means the latter, it is begging the question to say it is a ...true....phrnimenom , unless he can evidence it, and in numerous posts he and his fellow believers have failed to do so.   If he means that in principle, science ...read evolutionists...will one day give validating evidence, then that is a faith position.. Or if he means , explain the story line and theory, it merely means mastery over the dogma......and that IMO is what passes for evidence most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 10:56 AM

Somehow left out of my previous post... I asked for it to be added, but here it is again.

>http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/god-in-the-white-house/

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 10:34 AM

Relevant to the current discussion

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 05:24 AM

Me, me, me. What about me. Grow up man.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 04:30 AM

I am allowed to say that Steve and I disagree I think.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 04:12 AM

It's not all about you Keith, you've been told that many times. We know you would like it to be all about Keith but it ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 12:08 AM

and me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 07:40 PM

Well, Kevin, if you hold out that evolution is false, against all the evidence, and that the world was created in 4004 BC or whatever it was, you are a fool. I can be very diplomatic and not actually call you a fool and try to be very nice in trying, pointlessly, to change your mind. Or I can hold exactly the same opinion of you and shoot with both barrels. I can't be bigoted the one way and not the other. I tend towards the latter because I feel that religion has done a lot of damage to a lot of people and has drawn thoroughly undeserved respect for millennia, quite often achieved by coercion. I love very many people in my life who believe in God, but each and every one of them is deluded in that regard. Not in every regard but definitely in that one. I could choose a nicer word, but deluded is accurate. I don't mind being called undiplomatic, but if you want to show that I'm bigoted you'd better be able to point to exactly what the factual stuff is that I've missed. So far, that has not been forthcoming. "Bigoted" does not mean the same as "rude and disagreeing with Joe, Kevin and pete."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:10 PM

they are using 'reason' in ways that I disagree with

Actually, Bill, they're using UN-reason.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:01 PM

C'mon all you folks on my side... you rail against the wrong things. What is relevant is that, no matter their source, their details, or lack of 'evidence'..(sorry Pete... I occasionally use words carelessly)..religious beliefs are easy, comfortable and have been widely held for thousands of years.

It is beyond useless to call people ignorant, uninformed, demented or unreasonable..... they are using 'reason' in ways that I disagree with, but as long as they just 'believe', there's little *I* can do. The problem is when they attempt to establish certain aspects of religion into law, public policy and the educational system that we need to be constantly on guard.

In the meantime, there are well informed entities explaining the relevant concepts:

http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/god-in-the-white-house/

decline of religiously affiliated

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 03:08 PM

Not the mindset of bigotry. That's too broadbrush. It depends on whether my conviction can be supported by evidence. If you don't agree with me that evolution happens you are deluded and I am not bigoted. Possibly undiplomatic but not bigoted.
The remark on which I commented was made in relation to the Catholic Church, which has no problems in recognising the existence of evolution, so that is hardly relevant.

I'd question your suggestion that where there is strong evidence for something that excludes the possibility of bigotry. It's perfectly possible to be bigoted at the same time as being correct. In fact that kind of bigot can be the most dangerous.

Note that I didn't accuse you of being a bigot, which I don't believe you are. But I hold to my view that what you said was reasonably classed as bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 02:30 PM

It doesn't even have to be a scientific fact, Greg. It's a true phenomenon that the scientific process can set about explaining, and it's a very jolly thing to get involved in. At least a million times jollier than God. Or twenty. Or even eight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 02:17 PM

Evolutionism is the belief in evolution

1. There is no such thing as "evolutionism"

@. Evolution is not a "belief", its a scientific fact.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 01:42 PM

"I suppose that if you are Christian but believe the evolutionary story , you will say there is no evidence either way for the existence of God."

There is NO evidence for the existence of God. Are you saying that there are Christians who don't believe in God?

"This is why I bring up the evidences that evolutionism is impossible, and contrary to observable science."

You "bring up" NO "evidences" - "either way" - you merely choose to disbelieve in evolution! You must believe in "evolutionism" (whatever that is?) because that's what you're in opposition to ... isn't it? I'm confused ... or, rather, you're VERY confused!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 12:54 PM

Heheh. I note the sneaky entrance for the second time in a week of the God Of The Gaps. Unfortunately, this time God was like one of those bodhran players who thought he'd seen a spare seat at the session, to find it had mysteriously disappeared after he'd turned his back for a second.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 12:11 PM

evolutionism is impossible

Talk sense, man. Evolutionism is the belief in evolution which does exist and is proven by the very existence of the people that do believe in evolution.. I think what you are trying to say is that evolution does not exist, which is a different concept and requires different proof. If you are going to argue gibberish at least argue the right gibberish.

Tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 11:45 AM

I suppose that if you are Christian but believe the evolutionary story , you will say there is no evidence either way for the existence of God. I should stress here that we are talking about ...evidence....not. ......proof...as bill misrepresented , perhaps mistakenly, my position.   Dawkins, in his praise of Darwin said that the latter made it possible for him to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. That sounds reasonable because if it were not for evolutionism being accepted it would be hard to find many other ideas for creation , other than God. This is why I bring up the evidences that evolutionism is impossible, and contrary to observable science.