BS: The Pope in America

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

"I don't think kids are the literalists that some people take them to be. They seem to have an innate understanding of fiction, and don't really need to be told specifically that stories are stories."

Right. I told my two that Santa was bringing them presents. I also told them to put their tooth under the pillow and they'd get 50p. By the time they were seven or eight I cheerfully released them from these two fantasies and we have a good laugh about to this day. In fact, we still go through a charade every Christmas Eve in which they leave a mince pie, a carrot for Rudolph and a tot of whisky for Santa on a saucer at the bottom of the chimney. Naturally, they come down next morning to find that the goodies have been consumed, and there's a note left on the crumby saucer from Santa, strangely enough in my handwriting, usually complaining about bellyache from the 17000th mince pie of the night and can we please make it Talisker next year, and signed "Satnav" (we've concluded that Santa is dyslexic).

Mr Spock would probably find my pathetic reasons for pursuing these fantasies to be indefensible. But the crucial thing is that eventual release is automatic. I'd have been very worried indeed had either of my two somehow failed to ditch them (in spite of prodding in that direction) and I'd have swanned in quickly to disabuse them. But your stories are not the same thing. They are tendentious (look it up). Eventual release is not the intention. Whether they take every scrap of the tales literally is beside the point. Children are expected to hang on to the stories for life. To a Christian parent it's disappointing if the kids ditch the yarns. To some Muslim parents in certain countries, it could be the trashing of family honour at best and seeing your child's head cut off at worst. Millions and millions of people the world over take those biblical stories to be true in the generality if not in every detail, and they are probably wrong. Because you can't see that you're probably wrong yourself, you find it easy to defend the practice of, how best to put this, telling children lies. You don't even know whether Jesus existed at all (there is evidence that he likely didn't). But either you refute that doubt or it simply doesn't trouble you. I'm not going to reject everything I read in the New Testament as mythology. I'm sure that real people wrote it all down and, buried in there somewhere, there is some genuine history. But Christianity has real trouble accepting uncertainty as uncertainty. I come back to all your prayers and hymns, drilled into your children so that they can trot them out parrot fashion, chock full of certainty. The Lord's Prayer is possibly the most egregious example. The tales you tell them are not harmless fun. They are intended to stick. And there is no reason on earth why you should be doing that. No good can come of misleading people deliberately. The truth about the world is plenty wonderful enough. Douglas Adams again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 06:32 AM

Actually yes I am 8) because any further discussion between us would be fruitless. Like you said you're a simple man,me too,just I can't simplify this anymore I've already reduced it as far as I can. I could point you in the direction {and have done) of many who are trying to make scientific sense of it, but it would be lost on you and I totally understand. Can't think of anything else to say, you either see it or you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 06:28 AM

Ok, if I seems unfair I apologise. It was unintentional. I certainly don't support a rejection of science ever. It is without doubt the most successful technique we humans have ever discovered. I just resist the assumption that it can do everything and explain everything. Leaving God and religion and magic mushrooms out of it, we have if you like two domains - the firat is 'reality' as observed through our senses augmented by microscopes, radiation sensors and everything else but always in some sense "perceived". The other is a scientific representation which we know is incomplete but extends continously. Now is it self evident that the second can completely cover the former in principle? I grant you we know of no exceptions of major significance but things like turbulent flow could well prove to be inherently beyond science, not just our current techniques. So I see it as an open Question: are there aspects of reality that are inherently beyond science? I would say possibly, but on our current understanding they must be exceedingly rare.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 06:00 AM

But you said it was a lifelong interest of yours. It is interesting. Even my hero Carl Sagan found it interesting. You're being evasive!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 05:21 AM

I've invited him to expand on his take on consciousness beyond the confines of the human mind (the most interesting thing he's touched on) but he won't bite.

I can't give you what you want. My only solution would be to talk to the many who have experienced what a fuller conscious experience feels/looks like. I want what you want, for science to understand it. I want it mapped, one day we WILL have a fuller understanding. All we can do is wait and not bite down too early.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 05:06 AM

DMcG, that's not really fair. I've actually been very careful not to be dismissive. But he's throwing his toy out of the pram every time his postulations are challenged. I've been told that I'm arguing against him from ignorance, that we're not interested, etc. I have, actually, spent time looking into his stuff. There is not much evidence for anything he claims and there is no general acceptance of any of it. I've invited him to expand on his take on consciousness beyond the confines of the human mind (the most interesting thing he's touched on) but he won't bite. We castigate Pete for his refusal to embrace science. This chap castigates us for refusing to cast science aside in order to embrace his speculations. It's called throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 04:00 AM

Joe, I don't know if teaching of the catholic church has altered radically since I was a child in the late 50's early 60's but the "stories" you refer to were told as the absolute truth then and God help you if you didn't believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 03:31 AM

I had no Internet service for a few days, and Steve Shaw posted this:

Thread #158223   Message #3745529
Posted By: Steve Shaw
20-Oct-15 - 06:24 PM
Thread Name: BS: The Pope in America
Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America


So let me get this right. You think it could be OK to talk about a miraculous Jesus who came down from heaven, worked miracles, raised the dead, died nailed to a cross and came back to life, all in a really simple form of English, postponing till later the complicated world of telling them straight about what billions of people believe? Well, to be honest, I find the latter scenario a hundred times simpler then the former, and, strike me down if I'm wrong, but I think I'm a bit more sophisticated than the average kid!

I don't think kids are the literalists that some people take them to be. They seem to have an innate understanding of fiction, and don't really need to be told specifically that stories are stories. And they seem to be able to see the truth in fiction and the falsehood in "fact." To my mind, "fact" can be deceptive, since "factual" reporting often disregards implications and the possibility of a variety of perceptions.

I think that literalism is a learned trait, resulting from a gradual closing of the mind.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 03:16 AM

If you can't see it Steve then fine no big deal. GL carry on

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 02:28 AM

I admit I can't get much out of Timwstamp's account, either, but that last post from Steve appears to boil down to it is not scientific so it's without merit. And I don't agree for several reasons including that no one claimed it was scientific. Timestamp appears to regard that as inhibiting the way you look at things and i agree with him/her that it can. And so do you, I think, as you often refer to lack of rationality to supporting the football club you do. But also I think it underrates the importance of anecdotal information in steering more formal science, if only its role identifying something "that might be worth exploring"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 08:50 PM

Christ on a bloody bike. Where to begin?

First off, Time Stamp, you are a very complicated person, not at all like me, who is very very simple. Let's get one thing straight. I would never deny that people might have out of body experiences. But here's the thing. We have their word for it. We can collect a dozen, a hundred or a thousand such anecdotes. But I've been educated as a scientist to dismiss witness as evidence. You see, what happens here is that a few people describe in colourful words their alleged experiences, and a bandwagon starts to roll. Which is not for a single second to say that I'm calling them liars, etc. But how hard it gets to sort the wheat from the chaff. There may well be a lot in it for all I know. But there is no evidence that meets the standard for evidence required by science. That standard is there for a reason, the reason being that we don't make progress in the accumulation of knowledge if we rely on hearsay or witness.


"So can we get close to accepting there maybe enough data from history and present day that there is an energetic process that human beings can go through that cumulates in brain activity that involves a brilliance of light ie lightbulb space (sorry my clumsy term) which in turn leaves the person "elevated/lightened" for a time
afterwards ? .. No..ok worth a stab though..."

You may think it's worth a stab but I don't think it's worth a hill of beans without evidence, and your attempt at ratifying your strange notions by saying that "we're close to accepting..."is pseudoscience at its most blatant.

As for your rant about drugs, which appears to cast me in something of a false light in view of what I actually posted (I'm not bothered), you appear to have had a career in dodgy substances that I haven't had. Well good for you. I don't want this to sound too intolerant, which it probably will, but I have no desire to define the philosophy of life in terms of substance abuse. To me, that informs nothing at all apart from the predilections that some people have to pollute and degrade their mental attributes. "Altered states of consciousness", etc., can be, in certain hands, a game attempt to describe pissed or stoned in a more respectable way than is deserved This is not a really a thread about drug abuse. If you really want to talk about mind-altering or different states of consciousness, you need to define your terms first and then demonstrate how it actually happens, not come up with some bullshit about brain DMT producing shafts of light, etc., that you can't substantiate. Your ideas are very interesting, but you shit in your own bed by being abrasive towards people who haven't yet come across your particular brand of new ageism. Give me your email and I'll send you some lovely pics of Bude Canal. A lot has changed in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 02:20 PM

Yep point taken. I always get the urge to fackawf when I feel it beginning to get shitty. Because I know I feel shitty afterwards if I do shitty.Shit innit

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

No slagging off, TS but I am disappointed. Not at you coming back, but at the whole 'my instincts were right you're not interested in trying to understand.Bye ' thing. It was very provocative, dismissive and far from the standing back and thinking about things that you were advocating only a few posts back. Still, we all make mistakes. Me being amongst the bigger culprits so you are in good company ;-)

And I'll have you know that us Gnomes are eminently sensible. All that standing round ponds with fishing rods gives us the patience of saints...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 01:23 PM

I didn't format like it appeared. apologies 8)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 01:20 PM

Dtg - "There is nothing mystical about it really and I am sure that it is
part of the human mind that we simply do not yet understand "

Yes I would go with that too. Although the word mystical can cover
many things,but yes I think I agree.


Just as many people have this happen that don't meditate/pray so
it's hard to pin it down.Totally agree with your thoughts on meditation but I never found it useful,except as a quick recharge/refresher, if meditation is what I was doing, and it was only for a week or two. A lot of people naturally just sit back from their thoughts anyway.
So, now slag me for opting back in the thread 8) I found your post surprisingly reasonable for a gnome.
    Few myths to dispel,Hallucinogens and ingested dmt will not deliver what I'm talking about completely different animal. Even if we find that naturally occurring dmt does not play a role looking at the pineal and it's role in this is the way to go imho.
    Another myth, it has to be tortuous, it's a self induced near death exp, both wrong assumptions. Although I suspect similar probably happens at death the healthy waking process is different. They reckon people who have had OBE'S can slip into it easier. They being the people who've had it.
    So can we get close to accepting there maybe enough data from history and present day that there is an energetic process that human beings can go through that cumulates in brain activity that involves a brilliance of light ie lightbulb space (sorry my clumsy term) which in turn leaves the person "elevated/lightened" for a time
afterwards ? .. No..ok worth a stab though.
To me it's blatantly flaming obvious,regardless of any of our thoughts
on its benefit
      Steve when the coroner sends the bits back I'll be attending a
woman of 37 yrs of age funeral. Addiction killed her, no blood
relation to me, we all loved her despite her addiction. The Mrs
and I raised her two kids to adulthood,adopted them. I've lost say
20-30, old friends to addiction and hiv caught through addiction.
So believe you me you dopey fekin eejit 8) I'm not advocating
anybody to use drugs. You couldn't possibly know my views
on drugs and why I have them,so I know you mean't no harm.
Just that hair trigger of yours again..oh I'm joking.
      Taking a step sideways, when drug addicts get clean
they are told they have a lifelong disease, "the monkey"
Addicts call periods of clean time white knuckling they exist in a
chi-less world constantly dropping into adrenal fatigue,they just have
to cope and many admirably do.There is no medical cure except
low opiate maintenance and many can't accept those handcuffs.
    The only thing that I have ever seen flush the monkey
out of people is this process I'm talking about. We all have
our little monkeys,addicts have gorillas. So you see, forget God
forget cosmic consciousness the very fact that it can heal
addiction if the addict can be made to understand, which is rare
unfortunately,the relief is available. AA and NA can
trigger it but like religion doesn't deliver enough.
    Nothing I have typed is outlandish and very reasonable
based on scrutinising all sorts of data,if anyone else does
the same you would have to agree there is a process and it does
have value regardless of personal circumstances (state you're in)
      Now for the religious. I am not reducing God to a chemical
phsical process, and you can only take this so far until you hit
the source question, that, nobody now or ever has known.
    Peace n shit (just to keep the hippie vibe going)
ps
Can't see me getting time to indulge anymore,but I hope I
don't make too many waves as not my intention.Relax..digest
what you've learnt 8) ok bad joke.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 11:31 AM

I suffer from epilepsy. I think that I may have had it as an infant but it came back when I was in my fifties. If you are epileptic, you can have two types of seizure - 'petit mal' or 'grand mal'. If you experience the latter type, you just lose consciousness and fall over (now I'm on medication, I occasionally lose consciousness but don't fall over - go figure!). But it is the former type of seizure which is most puzzling. Sometimes I find my mind sort of 'chasing-its-own-tail' trying to solve a non-existent puzzle but other times I have a sort of 'deja-vu' type of experience in which I visit another reality. This reality is very ordinary and mundane but its not the one I normally experience. Afterwards, I can't remember any details. During one of these experiences am I just recalling a chunk of my earlier life, having a waking dream or temporarily visiting another me in a parallel universe (probably not)? This is all down to neurons mis-firing in my brain but I do know what 'altered consciousness' feels like.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 09:17 AM

We've got more than five senses anyway. Try touching your index fingers behind your back, for example. That's "proprioception".

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 04:00 AM

BTW - talking of near death experience. I suffered from obstructive sleep apnoea for years. Never revealed anything to me ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 03:37 AM

I have often wondered if at one stage in human development we had more than the five senses we acknowledge today, sight, hearing, taste, touch and smell.

I wonder if, before we could communicate verbally and then later in writing, the human species had an ability to transfer thoughts in other ways, e;g telepathy.

I wonder if as we have become more sophisticated we have, for the most part, lost other abilities as the need for them diminished.

Could it be that people who "know" things are merely getting "flashbacks" of an ability that we all once had.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 03:11 AM

As I said, Steve, I was speaking from a position of some considerable experience. When I first came across the idea of meditation, particularly transcendental, I was around 15 and quite impressionable. My first foray into that field were the books by T Lobsang Rampa. I subsequently spent many years following Buddhist and other teachings to achieve enlightenment. It did prove to be somewhat elusive but the meditation techniques did give me an insight into the workings of my own mind and eventually gave me the truth that "the truth" is within. Sorry to be somewhat mystic about it but I cannot honestly say that if you were to get the 'flash of light' that Mr Stamp was on about it would be the same one or ones that I have had.

You quite probably have had them. Flashes of inspiration. Quick glimpses into something that us old hippies may call the cosmic conciousness (Oh, yea, man...) Whatever people call it, it can be very enlightening to the extent that you realise that there is something beyond what you have been taught or can reason. There is nothing mystical about it really and I am sure that it is part of the human mind that we simply do not yet understand. As there are so many thing that science has yet to discover. One thing I can be pretty sure (but not certain) of. It is not an external super being of some sort.

The only time anyone else has ever made me one with everything was at the hot dog stand... ;-)

One little meditative trick that I came across in the last few years that made a difference to me and others may be interested in. Prior to meditating make sure that you are not doing it just for yourself. You are doing it to become calmer or happier or more enlightened or whatever is your motive. But that does not just help you. It benefits those around you as well. You are doing it for them too. It is far easier and usually more satisfying to do something for someone else that it is to do it just for yourself.

Enough philosophy from me for one day :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 09:12 PM

Guest was me on wrong computer.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 08:42 PM

True enough. But I thought the idea was to try to be civilised.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 08:17 PM

Sometimes the most free-thinking people come from the most illiberal backgrounds, in the words of that great mafioso, they did it their way. Though it often works the other way too. One way and another people often react against their parents and background.

As for IQ tests, when I was a id doing 11+ we used to have coaching in doing IQ tests. After a bit we could get perfect scores remarkably easy. Of course sometimes you could be too clever by half, and lost points because the markers hadn't spotted a correct alternative answer.

Yes, we all know there are religious traditions which are brutal in how they treat "apostates". You get it in other areas too, like religion. Even in sport. That's not really about religion, politics or sport as such. It's a kind of mobbing, and other species do it too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 07:27 PM

Maybe we're being a bit hard on him on reflection. It's fine to challenge yourself by exploring ideas that have yet to find general acceptance. There's been some research, there's some literature and there have been speculative links made between consciousness outside the body in the universe at large that transcends the human body's puny lifespan. What we have may be not all there is and you don't need God for it. The challenge to the intellect is considerable, though a lot of the stuff plumbs the murky depths of popular science. Just a couple of things about it all, though. First, we need evidence. Not anecdotes, not witness (which, unfortunately, is what stuff like near-death experiences can only be until we have a ton more corroboration than we have now). A pile of St Bernadettes won't cut it. And linking speculative notions to other speculative notions, such as multiverses and expanding foam universes, simply multiplies the chances of going USCWAP*. it's a damn sight more likely to have truth in it than God, because the speculation at least doesn't defy the intellect by requiring magic and the quantum physics connection is not implausible. Of course, there are ways and ways of presenting it. Another thing is the all-trumping enticement of the afterlife, or whatever you might want to call the non-death of consciousness. That can make you believe stuff that maybe you ought to be questioning a bit more.

In the meantime I prefer to fight for my personal enlightenment in ways other than quasi-druggy mind alteration!

*up shit creek without a paddle

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 02:05 PM

Thumbs up like sort of thingy


Man...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:59 PM

What he's saying is, well, like, you've got this, like, magic mushroom sort of thing in your brain, and if you relax enough it can, er, make you hallucinate sort of style, and if you nearly dIe but not quite die the same thing happens, sort of, and you don't panic, and you see funny animals and stuff, but you can only tell us all that if you nearly die but not if you actually die. Failing that, take LSD. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:46 PM

BTW, Mr Stamp, thought you had gone? Maybe you are not quite as composed as you thought...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

I meditate. Have done since I was about 15 - Almost 50 years ago. Can do it for hours. Also practice Tai Chi and Chi Gung. Certainly very relaxing and helps me considerably but I cannot say it has ever enlightened me about anything metaphysical. It has made me realise that all the arguments people get into are pointless. Is that what you mean? Or are you going to use the old snake oil salesman's excuse that if it has not happened I cannot be doing it right?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:38 PM

Steve, as I hold that the bible and the gospel are true, I am obviously going to communicate that to my kids ( also part of my faith !) , but I suspect with less fervour than you share your faith......of course, you say it ain't faith though, even though you have far from evidenced its truthfulness."

Huh? I thought the gospel was the Bible. Oh well. As for what I've got, think about what you've got. Then think that what you've got is what I have not got. I can't be fervent about what I have not got and it can't be my treasured baby because, well, I haven't got it. Actually, there IS no "it", that's the issue. But clearly I post a lot, so I must be fervent about something. The thing I'm fervent about, pete, is not what I have not got, but about what you have got. I'm fervent about you misusing the thing that you have got. I'm not at all bothered that you've got the thing you've got. That's not my business. I'm bothered about what you do with what you've got, certainly not about what I haven't got, which is what you've got. Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:37 PM

Do you know, just about the time I had to go out this morning - around 11:50 AM - I swear I caught a whiff of bat droppings (how strange). I remember reading somewhere - can't for the life of me think where - that crazy people often smell like that ... I wonder if that's true?

Anyway, must clean out that belfry ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 01:17 PM

That's as simple as you can get it, eh? Shame the scientists can't get it then! Pure speculation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 12:43 PM

In fairness Greg I can see how that could seem vague, so lets try clear it up a bit, it does deserve answering.
    If a human being can relax their body enough and quieten their thoughts,after a period of time a process kicks in. If they maintain it long enough something happens in the brain. If you're a meditator and you have your eyes are closed it's an explosion of light, if you have your eyes open there is an explosion of light around you.It's the brain releasiing Dmt. That's as simple as I can get it and barely scratches the surface,but you're not really interested anyway.
ps. Just because someone has this experience doesn't make them better than anybody else.Most only sustain it for a short while anyway.
    Now back to your comfort zone 8)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 11:50 AM

Steve, as I hold that the bible and the gospel are true, I am obviously going to communicate that to my kids ( also part of my faith !) , but I suspect with less fervour than you share your faith......of course, you say it ain't faith though, even though you have far from evidenced its truthfulness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 10:44 AM

Many of us are indeed dazzled by how enlightened we are :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 10:29 AM

I have a friend, who shall remain nameless although I don't think he is daft enough to come on here. We were out walking, in a group, and reached the top of Ingleborough in beautiful weather but quite thick snow. I know the routes very well and 3 or 4 of us headed back down as we we were old and knackered while my friend and a couple of others were much younger and raring to do more.

When they had not appeared in the pub after dark we began to worry and contemplated calling mountain rescue but shortly after they turned up. Having been led miles out of their way by my friend who was using his inner enlightenment and gut feelings on how to get back to Ingleton. He didn't half have the piss taken out of him.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 10:10 AM

"Enlightnment" is exactly that, the intelligence of the body coming to the fore and "you" getting out the way.

Hunh? And in English that is...?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 09:45 AM

Well Dave, he did sting me into looking up the stuff he goes on about. I don't think he actually understands it well enough to articulate it clearly to us is what I concluded. And it's odd that he agrees with me about the uselessness of IQ tests yet chose to beat his chest over his own hefty score. His hobby horse is interesting but he's declined to enlighten us on it (another irony, if you take the play on words).

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 09:35 AM

So, dip in with a mystic quote or two, don't explain anything and then bugger off. Religious leaders have done that for years. Old hat and no real intelligence required to do it.

Going on about physical processes that lead to common knowledge is pretty poor anyway. If you want to go for real deep and meaningful stuff, I prefer "When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea." Or "Why, certainly, I'll have your whelk. How do we do it? Volume!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 09:15 AM

Before I opt out the thread for good I have to quote this from the poster Ebbie.." It is amazing that we don't yet accept how much on our side our brains and bodies are. " That simple little quote there is the wisest thing I have ever read on this forum. "Enlightnment" is exactly that, the intelligence of the body coming to the fore and "you" getting out the way. Regardless of whether Ebbie agrees with me or not in this context, that quote is spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 09:00 AM

Well to be perfectly honest Steve what you typed about IQ tests is what I've been saying for years,or very similar. All we have though, was just trying and obviously failing in keeping you focused.
    No harm you carry on my instincts were right you're not interested in trying to understand.Bye

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 06:55 AM

"I now await Steve pointing other things with at best suspect foundations being treated with more respect than they deserve..."

Perhaps later. And "suspect" doesn't even begin to cut it!   ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 06:50 AM

I never said that having religion around in a family represents shackles. Shackles are things that tie you down. They make it hard to escape. Things like the threat of social ostracism, shaming family honour, physical punishments for apostasy. The Catholic Church is relatively benign (though I would never had dared tell my gran that I wasn't a Catholic any more - she'd have been devastated. My dad isn't too happy with my stance on belief either. Paths of least resistance can be shackles too), though not as benign as the CofE. I know a family in which one parent is a devout Catholic, the other ignores religion altogether and the four children have happily been allowed to choose whatever paths they wanted. We told our kids that it was best that we didn't exercise our right to exclude them from religious instruction and ceremony at school, but we could talk about it at home. But the way you end up is not always necessarily an indication of how you were treated as a child. Kids are resilient creatures who pick up influences less and less from parents as they grow up and more and more from peers. Sometimes the most free-thinking people come from the most illiberal backgrounds, in the words of that great mafioso, they did it their way.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 06:48 AM

Ah, IQ tests! Such a simple idea in principle and such a great example of how an idea with a highly suspect foundation can dominate so much - education policy, recruitment, promotions... A bit like our modern obsession with BMI whose chief merit seems to be it is easy and cheap to calculate.

I now await Steve pointing other things with at best suspect foundations being treated with more respect than they deserve...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 06:30 AM

Until Mr Stamp cares to elucidate further on his wacky notions about awareness and consciousness (which have probably got a lot in them, but terms like baby and bathwater spring to mind), there's not a lot to be said. If we judge a person by their accuracy, however, he falls a little short. I am extremely alone posting on this topic and do not "pick teams"; I recoil furiously at all times, as you know, from silly talk of "proof"; and I didn't call him "thick", though he did insinuate that I was ignorant, without revealing why he thought so. I'll put that down to faulty memory. Not the sort of thing you expect from someone with such a hefty IQ!


[Actually, I did the IQ test myself at university, which I rapidly became ashamed of when I found out about Eysenck's despicable right-wing predilections and views on race, and discovered how you could coach yourself to get good scores in the IQ test. Uncoached myself, I too emerged with a hefty IQ (confirming the astronomical score I'd achieved when tested at 11 years old) which I've long regarded as completely valueless as a measure of anything at all. I find it surprising that anyone needing to promote their intellectual credentials would want to pull that one out of the bag. Doesn't seem a very intelligent thing to do to me!]

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 04:40 AM

Time Stamp. What does What I'm talking about is common knowledge in a lot of circles and has been with us for ever mean? Would you care to share with us what that 'common knowledge' is? What is this physical process that expands awareness? It seems, to me, that you are hinting at things that may be deemed mystical in some way. Are you?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 03:56 AM

"They are batshit crazy. Full stop.

All attempting to engage tham in rational debate does is tend to legitimize their batshit craziness, as if their insanity and delusion were worthy of serious consideration.

Enough, already"

Yes, Greg, you're right - enough already!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 02:01 AM

I've mentioned before that my daughter now works in Thailand and the village have given her a nickname which roughly translates as "woman with open mind and open arms."

Doesn't sound as if I have shackled her too much, I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in Americ
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 15 - 10:50 PM

Nothing in that last post of yours I'd take issue with, Steve. Of course we might not see eye to eye on what free-thinking and fair-minded mean.

"Shackles" minded me of William Blake's "mind forged manacles" in "London". Now there was a free-thinking and fair-minded man, and in no one's team...

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: GUEST,Time stamp
Date: 20 Oct 15 - 10:30 PM

@ Steve "Unsentimental discussion ' But you can't do that, that's your whole problem. There is a coin you are one side Pete is the other. Data driven, not dogma driven is what is needed. You by picking a team and fighting imaginary battles are part of the problem. I am not btw talking about proving the existence of a God or creator or any such. What I'm talking about is common knowledge in a lot of circles and has been with us for ever.
    Fact 1 (not rhetoric) There is a physical process some people from each generation go through that expands their awareness.
--
    Fact 2 It is in all cultures and always has been, and nobody owns it.

--    Fact 3 Regardless of culture or tradition the end product is the same..universal.
    Inconvenient for you I know but there ya go

Now the logical route is to assume it's psychosis,well research it that doesn't hold water. The next step is to assume it must be fantasists passing down a meme, that won't fit either.No matter how you try dismiss it, it won't go away (been there). You have to stop debating this for a while and start contemplating it properly. Accept the the facts above on your own away from the net until you have digested them and the implications,that may take a while. Then you will have a more informed view and we could move on and it gets interesting. I piss everybody off with my approach,the athiests and the religious because I have no team. I have two more free days and if you post anything relevant, I'll discuss with you.The last time we tried you dodged by insinuating I was thick,well I have a pretty hefty IQ and I'm only mentioning that to put you right. Now really am going to sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope in America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 15 - 09:30 PM

There's not an awful lot we can do about how families influence their children, and a good thing too. No-one has the monopoly on what's the right thing to do. We can hope that a well-educated populace will generally try to do their kids justice. Schools have a big part to play. That does not mean that we can't have an opinion about what goes on. Unsentimental discussion, from the hip, can play a significant part in persuading parents to give more consideration as to what is influencing their children, and how. It's not about being prescriptive (I'll leave that to big religion). It's about being alert and caring. And wanting your kids to grow up free-thinking and fair-minded. You won't get that by giving them shackles to wear.