BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:00 AM

Some people seem far from happy regarding the commemoration of our fallen over the weekend.

I didn't see any of it as I was involved in a music weekend so am not in a position to judge on this particular event although I wouldn't have watched it as I have not appreciated previous events.

Over to you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:18 AM

I thought the Albert Hall do was more jingoistic but the thing I objected to most was turning it into a CofE thing. Many of the fallen were not CofE or even Christian. Why let a specific religion take it over? But that may be just me.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Megan L
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 08:29 AM

Unfortunately I caught a bit of the Albert Hall and really wish I had not, what a fiasco some Italian warbling away then some blonde giggling and laughing not at all like the man who sang at last years.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 09:16 AM

Yes, yet another example of imperialistic religion imposed on both the deluded and the non-deluded equally. Insufferable.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 09:31 AM

The nine wreath laying ceremonies our pipe band played at last Sunday were all ceremonies of "Commemoration" and I did not hear anybody say "By Jingo" once - and apart from Policemen restricting and redirecting traffic I did not see a single person in uniform - medals yes, a few berets yes but anyone in full military uniform No.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 09:59 AM

Hijacked by the same establishment that wants us to believe willing men understood what they were letting themselves in for or that the butcher of The Somme and his cohort of generals were competent and had a thought for those in their command.

What really gets me is putting recent government folly and vanity on the same level as destroying the nazi regime in WW2.

If it were about the fallen themselves, they'd all wear white fucking poppies.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 11:37 AM

Just had this removed (censored) from the sanitised thread so I'll put it up here
Today's Times carries a article declaring that tourists can now go on sightseeing trips in London on an Abbott 17 tonne tank - it includes a photograph showing a group of them doing so on Westminster Bridge, withing five minutes walking distance of The Whitehall Cenotaph where a wreaths were laid honouring the dead a couple of days ago.
It seems that not only do we have the jingoists glorifying wars and hypocrites laying wreaths with one hand while signing export licences    for weapons to be sold to feudalistic tyrants, death-dealing military equipment being used to make a few bob for some entrepreneur
What next - pubs decked out like air-raid shelters with drinks served by staff dressed as ARP wardens, stretcher bearers and nurses!!
This killin' lark really is good for a larf - innit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 11:37 AM

Perhaps GUEST 09:59 AM could let us in on who should lead the nation in a "National" Act of Remembrance?

The Red Poppies sold by the Royal British Legion raise awareness of those who gave their lives in the defence of freedom in the face of naked aggression. The proceeds of the sale of those poppies goes to charities that carry-out many good works - purchase of these poppies is a matter of individual choice - not a single political thing about it.

The White Poppy on the other hand has got nothing whatsoever to do with those who sacrificed themselves, nothing whatsoever to do with the fallen, it is entirely political - as detailed on their own website.

One last question for GUEST 09:59 - Do poppies "fuck"? If so does that mean we would have to buy two of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 11:53 AM

Sorry Jim Carroll but what is the connection between any of the things that you mentioned?

Are the Capital Tank Tours organised and promoted by the Government? Or are they a "private" venture? I can remember seeing in various cities around the world sightseeing trips in WWII amphibious vehicles, they've been on the go for ages - Did the Government run those as well?

Perhaps it is all part of a sinister plot so that the "Guvvermint" can map out where and where not they can drive a tank in the city of London when the time comes to murder the revolting masses. One point of correction courtesy of my son-in-law who knows about such things, he has just pointed out to me that the Abbot is not a tank it is a self-propelled gun.

Of course if all those despicable people could not buy arms from us they would just pack up and go home to mum, perhaps they'd sell ice-cream instead, or do you think they'd just go and buy arms from someone else - the Russians and Chinese seem to sell or give away the most it would appear.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 12:40 PM

" Or are they a "private" venture?"
Does it matter - it is the trivialization of death at a time when we are being asked to give tribute to the dead - just down down the road from where the millions of dead are honoured.
Just you7 have just treivialised the selling of weapons to mass murderers and despots.
Of course they'd buy them off those you mentioned - that makes selling them OK doesn't it - of course the profits would go into the British economy if they bought them from us - finefor some, I suppose!!
Different strokes for different blokes (or blokessses) I suppose
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 01:57 PM

The argument that if we did not sell arms to despots then somebody else would is quite frankly sickening, we have no business dealing in death and destruction. We should be better than this. You could make the same argument for being a heroin dealer.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:03 PM

The Royal British Legion is by far the biggest organisation for and of service veterans.
They organise the Festival of Remembrance and the Poppy Appeal.
You may not like it, but service and ex service people do.
That is who it is for.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:32 PM

Also Dave, it is not and never was a "CofE thing."
You will have seen no cross or crucifix.
You will have seen a pile of drums. That is a soldier's altar for a Drum Head Service.

The Prayers were led by Rt Revd Nigel McCulloch. Since 2002 he has been the National Chaplain to the Royal British Legion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:47 PM

it is not and never was a "CofE thing."

If they have a minister and mutter some prayers it is a religious thing. Cannot be anything else.

The Prayers were led by Rt Revd Nigel McCulloch.

Would that be the Nigel Simeon McCulloch, KCVO (born 17 January 1942) who is an Anglican bishop by any chance? If it is not a CofE thing what was he doing on the programme?

If people want a vicar they can go to church. If the want a rabbi they can go to a synagogue. If they want an imam they can go to the mosque. Where can those who want to avoid any religious nonsense go if they want to remember their lost ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 03:54 PM

RBL encourage white poppies if you read their literature and press releases and fully understand the sentiment. After all, many of their people have experienced the reality rather than the glory of fucking war.

The opportunistic Church of England meanwhile love to hijack remembrance on the basis of links with the royalty we inadvertently link to our warring past. Perhaps their scholars never got as far as thou shalt not kill and turn the other cheek.

The many Muslims, Sikhs and Jews who fought must wonder, those still left from WW2, why religious fascism didn't die with social fascism.

That's before you get to considering rational people who don't relate sky fairies of any description with the futile glorification of state sponsored butchery. Who lights a candle for the real brave ones, the conscientious objectors incarcerated and shunned by bloodthirsty idiots?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 04:12 AM

1.2 million Arabs fought in the British Army; 500,000 were killed. Were they mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 08:36 AM

Thompson, where does that number come from? Lawrence's force in WWI was only a couple of thousand, and if you add up the Arab half of the Palestine Regiment, the Arab Legion, and those Egyptians who may have fought with the British army, you get nowhere near that number. 1.2 million Muslims I can believe, but not 1.2 million Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 09:13 AM

Dave, he is a retired Bishop, but he was there because he was invited by RBL. He is their Chaplain.
You may not like the religious element of the event, but the RBL chooses to have it. Their members, service people and ex service people like it.
It is their event.

So do most people like it.
5.39 million people watched it and it sold out for both the evening and afternoon run at the RAH, as it always does.

If they have a minister and mutter some prayers it is a religious thing.
Obviously, but you said CofE.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 11:37 AM

ALL those who served in the armed forces of Great Britain, her Commonwealth and her Empire are remembered Thompson - you would have known that had you listened to, or watched the service.
        
Interesting figures though Thompson which if true would mean that during the First and Second World Wars 14% of the British Army consisted of Arab troops and 41% of the fatal casualties were Arabs - pray tell where did these rather fanciful figures come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:23 PM

The 500,000 Arabs killed is surely an impossible figure. I'm sure the dead for all the British Empire casualties is over the million mark. Scotland itself lost approximately 100,000 war dead the UK in total was supposedly over 800,000. The other big figures from the Empire come from Australia, NZ, Canada, South Africa and India. I'm sure some Arabs were killed too but 500,000 deaths????

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM

They are all fucking dead, regardless of which flavour of superstition.

We roped many commonwealth countries in to help and, as some found out, decided protecting them in return wasn't strategically advantageous in WW2

RBL isn't a religious body and judging by his turban has at least one Sikh on its board of trustees. The Church of England is, regrettably, the state superstition and has links to government and royalty, hence their involvement, regardless of the wishes of RBL or anyone else for that matter in state events such as remembrance hand wringing.

The idea of "most people" wanting religion mixed into it is a groundless comment with no basis. The mental leap that people want religion at the event on the basis of attendance by old men in frocks is like saying I go to football matches because I like the smell of the urinal blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:46 PM

ALL those who served in the armed forces of Great Britain, her Commonwealth and her Empire are remembered Thompson - you would have known that had you listened to, or watched the service.
        
Interesting figures though Thompson which if true would mean that during the First and Second World Wars 14% of the British Army consisted of Arab troops and 41% of the fatal casualties were Arabs - pray tell where did these rather fanciful figures come from?

War dead for British, Commonwealth & Empire forces in WWI = ~880,000

War dead for British, Commonwealth & Empire forces in WWII = ~384,000

So out of a total of ~1,264,000 – Arabs serving in the British Armed Forces accounted for 500,000?

Very much doubt that Thompson.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:01 PM

regardless of the wishes of RBL

RBL organise the event the way they and the service people want it.
CofE plays no part.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 03:12 PM

A rather bold statement professor, could you provide us with some evidence to substantiate your claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:19 AM

As the poster above correctly states the Festival of Remembrance is planned and organised by the Royal British Legion, the format has been long established and includes a Drumhead Service to close the festival. the service is NOT CofE but ecumenical with padres from all three services taking part and readings given by members of all faiths who serve in the armed forces of Great Britain. The Church of England takes no part in the planning or organisation of the service, they are instructed as to what is required by the RBL.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:55 AM

Keith is of course right, I don't always agree with everything he says but I find the instant aggression of some posters on here towards him a bit disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 04:36 AM

Fine, the CofE play no part in organising it. So, the RBL think that having a CofE bishop (retired) talking about the christian concept of god and heaven is a good way of making the remembrance service inclusive to all do they? I must try it. Maybe organising christian prayers at the folk club will put more bums on seats. It obviously works in filling churches... Anyway, I am more than happy to change my statement from being 'turning into a CofE thing' to 'turning into a christian thing'. I still find it objectionable either way and will not bother with it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:23 AM

"the thing I objected to most was turning it into a CofE thing" - your words Dave the Gnome.

It would appear that quite a few here have clearly described and detailed the format of "The Festival of Remembrance" and in no way whatsoever could it be described as "a CofE thing". It has, is and always will be an all faith service of commemoration - there again you'd have known that had you bothered to watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:38 AM

I did watch it! From beginning to end and it was far from an 'all faith service'. If it was, where were the rabbis? Imams? Leaders of any other non-christian faiths? Also, in the post preceding yours I said quite clearly I am more than happy to change my statement from being 'turning into a CofE thing' to 'turning into a christian thing'. Which bit of that is difficult to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 01:45 PM

If religion isn't about promoting pacifist outlooks, it makes you wonder what buns they bring to a party.

The inclusion of superstition in such events is an acronym and tradition. A bit like that we seem to have a cut off of WW1 when remembering whatever you may be remembering. Cast a thought for what those Romans did to Boudicca eh?

Lest we forget what? Sending Padres into battle to convince soldiers that killing is ok? Asking their God to let them kill other members of their cult but with a different helmet?

I'm all for tradition but for crying out loud, to call the sky fairy input relevant rather than a habit difficult to shake off is delusional.

Oh....

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 01:57 PM

It is their festival, and they organise it as they, the service people and the veterans like it.

My experience of service people is that they tend not to be religious, but this festival is still popular with them.
They are more tolerant than you Dave.

Jeremy Corbyn is an atheist and is known to be anti-nationalist and anti-jingoist.
He was happy not just to attend in person, but to join in the hymns.

Even among the left wing atheist community our Mudcat ones are unusually intolerant people.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 02:37 PM

THE CENOTAPH
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:30 PM

They are more tolerant than you Dave.

How so, Keith? I watched it all on TV. I could not afford a ticket but I guess the politicos got a free ride anyway. I have said I will not watch it again but said nothing about whether it should go ahead or not. I am more than happy to live and let live as long as I am not expected to join in. What is remotely intolerant about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:29 AM

Jesus freaks are tolerant?

I'm with the late Jake Thackray on this. "I can't tolerate intolerance." Mind you, he was a committed left footer.

The thing is, rational people don't claim to "love thy neighbour" "turn the other cheek" or in the tradition of dodgy clergy, mishear "suffer the children."

Hypocrisy is part and parcel of belonging. These days, it just sticks out like a sore thumb far more than it did. Of course older people, being less street savvy and brought up to believe tend to believe so feel a crumb of comfort by seeing old men in frocks muttering platitudes. Good luck to them, placebo guarantees a minimum of 20% success rate.

But Dave The Gnome's point still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:30 AM

@Dave the Gnome:
On the Saturday before Remembrance Sunday there is a Matinee performance of the Festival of Remembrance which is open to the public this is followed by the evening performance which is televised, the latter is restricted to guests invited by the Royal British Legion, Serving Forces personnel and members of the Royal British Legion - so, as far as the evening performance is concerned, it is not a matter of being able to afford a ticket, I doubt that you would be eligible to attend.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:47 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks Guest 13 Nov 15 - 03:30 AM. Either way I could only watch the evening performance on TV and will not be doing so again. If the afternoon performance is similar I shall not make any effort to attend that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:02 AM

Dave, you have railed against it and said that you find it "objectionable" because of its religious content.

That makes you less tolerant than Corbyn, and all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event and even participate actively in it by joining in the hymn singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:55 AM

" That makes you less tolerant than Corbyn, and all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event and even participate actively in it by joining in the hymn singing"

Have you any EVIDENCE that all the other atheists among the veterans welcomed the religious element? If so please share it with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:27 AM

Yes, I find it objectionable yet still tolerate it. That is what being tolerant means. If you only tolerate the things that you like it is hardly tolerant at all is it? If I was not going to tolerate it I would have said intolerable rather than objectionable. I have even been known to attend religious ceremonies myself and will happily join in the singing if I know the tune. But it is my choice to do so when the occasion demands. It was not my choice to have it in my living room on a Saturday evening so I will not watch it next year. If that is intolerant then anyone who switches the TV off or changes channels when something they do not like comes on is in the same league.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:42 AM

Yes, I find it objectionable yet still tolerate it.

You still tolerate it Dave?
Luckily you do not have the authority to ban it, but your comments about it here suggest you would if you could.
Your comments about it here have been intolerant.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:47 AM

I would not ban anything, Keith. But, if that is your opinion of what I would do I can only refer you to the 'Listen Up' thread and say that you are talking though your arse. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:51 AM

Rag,
Have you any EVIDENCE that all the other atheists among the veterans welcomed the religious element? If so please share it with us.

Certainly Rag.
Firstly the RBL is an organisation of and for service people and veterans.
They organise the Festival as they like it.

Secondly, service people and veterans have a voice. If they do not like something you hear about it.

Thirdly I have personally known very many people who have volunteered to participate, so I have personal knowledge.
This year my friend Sandy of 151 Rgt RLC featured in several close ups. She was at the end of a row, quite short and wearing Corporal's chevrons, but her medals including Iraq were not visible.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:53 AM

Religion has no part in these ceremonies - unless it is remembered that millions of men were sent to their deaths at the behest of priests who told them they were fightingg god's fight and they had god on their side (someone should write a song).
500.000 Sikhs and Muslims fought in W.W.1. and millions who died were atheists, yet they are excluded from this Christian/Politician backslapping exercise.
There is nothing whatever extreme in find this 'private club' attitude objectionable - and all the press has carried reports of objections to it over the last few years.
Yet the Christians doggedly hang onto it as theirs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:29 AM

So, is Sandy an atheist then? And if so does she represent ALL other atheists in welcoming the religious element? Seeing as you are so pedantic about the words other people use can you explain how you know that "Corbyn, and all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element" really do welcome it? If Corbyn had not attended and joined in the singing what sort of outcry would we have had then? No, sorry Keith, as you are fond of saying you should be able to back up your opinions and your opinion that all the other atheists welcomed it is demonstrably nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:43 AM

Your statement was " all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event"

Please provide evidence to support this claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:57 AM

Sandy is an atheist, but never mind my personal knowledge.

Firstly the RBL is an organisation of and for service people and veterans.
They organise the Festival as they like it.

Secondly, service people and veterans have a voice. If they do not like something you hear about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:04 AM

Good heavens we have DtG & Raggy demanding that "Evidence" must be produced by someone posting to this thread, yet when they are asked to do the same they refuse point blank to do so, declaring that their opinions must be respected and taken at face value.

Also from further up the thread I'd love to know where Thompson got his figures from - they are way off by a "Kerry Mile".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:04 AM

I'll ask again, even though I know you will avoid the question.

You stated "all the other atheists among the veterans who welcome a religious element within the event"

Where is your evidence that the atheists among the veterans welcome a religious element, not your opinion, but your EVIDENCE.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:05 AM

If Corbyn had not attended and joined in the singing what sort of outcry would we have had then?

You believe Corbyn was hiding his true beliefs and intentions to gain popularity?

What does that say about him, and about popular opinion?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:23 AM

No I do not, Keith. I believe he was attending because it is the right thing for a top flight politician to do. Whether he "welcomed a religious element" is the point in question.

Teribumble declaring that their opinions must be respected and taken at face value Look at the 'Listen Up' thread if you want to know my view on opinions. Anyone can declare their opinion and anyone can chose to ignore or ridicule it. Have you got anything to add to this thread or are you just reduced to sniping from the sidelines?