BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:17 AM

"It will either be the wrong sort of swan, the wrong shade of red, politically motivated or no longer living "
Don't forget "a real swan" - very important!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:24 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 15 Dec 15 - 08:40 AM

Great pity that you don't follow your own advice, especially as you seem to be criticising people on their knowledge and study of a subject that you say you know nothing about.

No examples of this alleged "Jingoism" yet then?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:36 AM

YOU CANNOT GIVE AN HONEST VIEW OF ANY HISTORIAN'S OPINIONS WITH OUT-OF-CONTEXT QUOTES

Lie.
My quotes are in context, and I provided the links so they can be seen to be in context.

You still don't respond to the Deutscher/Conquest enigma,
No. It is not about WW1.
I opened the Stalin thread to respond there, but it is closed.

you demand that we only accept the opinions of living ones?

The consensus has emerged only about twenty years ago as a result of new evidence becoming available.
Nothing written in the last twenty years by living or dead historians supports your debunked and discredited version.

Or why you can you present unqualified tabloid journalists

You presented Tim Pat Coogan in another discussion, who is unqualified and a tabloid journalist.
Discount Hastings, and I can still say that nothing written in the last twenty years supports your debunked and discredited version, only mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:38 AM

Ah GUEST Dave so a Festival of Remembrance and Service of Remembrance to remember the sacrifices made by those who died defending our country cannot feature any representatives or representative image of any serviceman or woman? The Festival of Remembrance organised by the Royal British Legion a charitable organisation that does much for servicemen and women, their families and their dependents who find themselves in need cannot demonstrate the extent and commitment of the grass roots branches that do all the fund raising for those charities at their own Festival?

Careful you'll be calling for the banning of all those Trades Union Banners next.

Sorry GUEST DAVE it is a Royal British Legion event they are perfectly entitled to "advertise".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:39 AM

I can still say that nothing written in the last twenty years supports your debunked and discredited version, only mine.

You can say whatever you like, Profesor, but that don't make it true.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:44 AM

You can say whatever you like, Profesor, but that don't make it true.

What makes it true is that none of you can find a different view from any historian.
Who cares what what a clique of Mudcatters think?
Historians actually know stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 11:45 AM

GUEST - 15 Dec 15 - 08:37 AM

Do you believe everything you read you prat - the bird shown is a f**kin Flamingo - Red Swan my arse.

Oh Dear, How Sad; Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 12:27 PM

"You presented Tim Pat Coogan in another discussion, who is unqualified and a tabloid journalist."
Coogan does not write for tabloids and is not a journalist - and he is every bit as qualified as Max Hastings - nor have I or anybody else ever disallowed information from anybody other tha you - misrepresentation on three points
"I opened the Stalin thread to respond there"
You have never responded to it anywhere - I have only just raised it (stop lying)
I raise it here as an example of your lying about historians you claim to have read
"My quotes are in context, "
No they are not - I repeat - YOU CANNOT GIVE AN HONEST VIEW OF ANY HISTORIAN'S OPINIONS WITH OUT-OF-CONTEXT QUOTES
"The consensus has emerged only about twenty years ago as a result of new evidence becoming available."
The only "new" evidence to have emerged over the last twenty years is from the soldiers ("liars") diaries - and they are only available to a few people - no new evidence has been discoled from them and it wouldn't matter if it has - you've told us they are liars.
What we have seen is an effort by establishment historians to rehabilitate the war as acceptable on the deeply insulting premise that us stupid peasants believe Blackadder and Oh What a Lovely War presnts an accurate account - you have accused us of the same - downright ****** insulting that anybody should take a sit-com as an accurate account of anything - who they hell do they or you think we are?
If "new evidence" has emerged - what it it? (don't expect an answer to this one either)
"Careful you'll be calling for the banning of all those Trades Union Banners next."
Who gives a toss who attends a festival remembering "liars" as you have described them.
See you're keeping your head down from the awkward bits here - very wise!!
Jim (whoops-Jom) Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:21 PM

I love this.

Do you believe everything you read you prat

Were you talking to Keith, teribums?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:36 PM

"The only "new" evidence to have emerged over the last twenty years is from the soldiers ("liars") diaries - and they are only available to a few people - no new evidence has been discoled from them and it wouldn't matter if it has - you've told us they are liars."

Oh dear more Jom "Made Up Shit"

Where did you get that nugget about the only source of new evidence in the past twenty years has come from soldiers diaries?

You can call soldiers liars if you like I certainly haven't - Or are you back to your old pal Tommy Kenny again - the old man you cannot even prove was EVER a soldier because of your slapdash method of gathering data for research - you were too bloody idle to get verification that he was ever in the Army - you cannot tell what Regiment he served in, where he served, or in which actions he fought. YOU tell us ever changing stories of Military Policemen carrying out summary executions of British soldiers saying that Tommy told you all about this yet Tommy cannot name any of the men he saw shot, they would of course have been Tommy's comrades in arms, the lads he trained and served alongside, yet he cannot remember their names? Incredible and totally unbelievable. There have been hundreds of memoirs and autobiographies written by soldiers who served on the western front - strange that none of them mention anything about any such summary executions.

It is you Jom who depict those who volunteered to fight for their country as dullards, simpletons and fools, too stupid to know what they were doing - I really would have liked to see you try and tell that to either of my Grandfathers - they'd have lifted your head clear off your shoulders.

So far not one of you has provided any link to any historian who specialises in the study of the Great War who contradicts the three points originally brought to our attention by Keith A - NOT ONE.

Keep digging boys - carry-on.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:41 PM

No Lofty talking to anonymous GUEST who when it comes to bird recognition obviously doesn't know his arse from his elbow, but who is dumb enough to believe whatever the caption says - thick or what eh?

With such star players on your side Lofty - we don't even need strikers - just a constant stream of own-goals, looking forward to even more "Howlers" now that Jom is back from his jaunt to Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:49 PM

Hey - Well done teribums (Seriously this time) you hit a significant 1111 with that last post :-)

Now, star players, strikers, own goals and howlers? Bit of mixed phrasing their surely? Can you not go further than three thoughts in the same vein without falling over? You are not even in the right league...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 01:54 PM

For some reason my original post has been removed, presumably by a moderator. Why?

For the record, Teribus, my PhD was awarded by London University, as was my degree and my MA. I'm not going to reveal its subject as I am a specialist in a particular historical area.

History isn't just about 'hard facts and knowledge', it's about those voices which are rarely recognised in 'official' accounts of events. It's about documents which, even now, have still not been released into the public domain. It's about creating a voice for those who are under-represented. It's about recognising that historians themselves have been limited in their understanding because of access restrictions and embedded prejudices.

Teribus and Keith really do not have a full appreciation of the nature of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:02 PM

"You can call soldiers liars if you like I certainly haven't - "
Your words on our recording Tommy Kenny were:
"I bet he and his mates had a laugh at our gullibility in believing what he said"
You dismissed Harry Patch's statement on shellshock out of hand "because he said he'd never seen a case" and totally refused to respond to the fact that he was fighting next to people who certainly had.
You dismissed the report of summary executions from an old soldier becaus "they never happened" - simple as that.
If that isn't calling soldiers liars - what is?
I have at no time described soldiers as "dullards, simpletons and fools," - because they joined - I have taken great pains to describe the "emotional blackmail, the lying of the recruiting campaigns and the fact that employers forced them to join up under the threat of dismissal and also, as in Tommy Kenny's case, the enticements of three meals, a bed and a uniform which was offered to unemployed young men to gety them to join.
]I pointed out that half of a Paxman programme was dedicated to the techniques - you have responded to none of it.
Our "research" in recording Tommy Kenny was neither slapdash, nor was it research - it was recording actual experiences of an old man for a family who already had the actual details of his service - why are you pair so transparent in your deliberate distortion of what has been said.
Again - Tommy Kenny did not say he saw anybody shot - go ***** read what I wrote about what he said about executions - another case of convenient dyslexia
"strange that none of them mention anything about any such summary executions."
And you continue to call soldiers liars
"originally brought to our attention by Keith A"
Max Hastings (who he has called a liar or hypocrite, and Margaret McMillan - to name tw
]You really should have atayed away from this.
Jim Carroll


.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:07 PM

and he is every bit as qualified as Max Hastings -...and no more.

You have never responded to it anywhere - I have only just raised it (stop lying)

I know you have just raised it. I ignored it because it is irrelevant to this thread, and the Stalin thread is closed.

YOU CANNOT GIVE AN HONEST VIEW OF ANY HISTORIAN'S OPINIONS WITH OUT-OF-CONTEXT QUOTES

Lie.
My quotes are in context, and I provided the links so they can be seen to be in context.

nd they are only available to a few people - no new evidence has been discoled from them and it

Any researcher can make use of the archive, and it is all being put on line. The historians who have used it say it is very valuable.

by establishment historians to rehabilitate the war

What establishment?
Boot is American. Macmillan Canadian. Pennel did all her studying in Ireland.
That establishment are all long dead and no-one cares about protecting them.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:14 PM

Modette, what is your opinion of the three points I have been defending?

They come from reading WW1 histories.
Nothing written in the last twenty years contradict them.
Nothing written in the last twenty years supports the views expressed by Jim.

Do you challenge any of those facts modette?
If you do, please give details.
I provide quotes from numerous historians working on that period.
What can you provide?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:20 PM

"Historians actually know stuff"

Unless they point out flaws in the logic of our novelty acts, Acheson and Woodcock.

Then they get their PhD from cornflakes packets apparently...

You coul...    You know the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:28 PM

Hurrah!

Thank you Modette. Perhaps if they hear a voice from (and please excuse any perceived syncophancy) a qualified historian, they may, just may, start to listen to some reason.

At the moment I am reading "The Good Soldier" by Gary Mead. To say he is trying to paint a positive picture is probably correct. Without extracting long exerts from it, it is not possible to indicate just how favourable, at times, the book is to Haig.

I would recommend reading it to all concerned. I could go further and say that the book is biased. However I am only one third of the way through it and will reserve judgement.

I know with limited education it may be difficult for some people to see beyond what is written but it shouldn't stop you trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:30 PM

Bollocks, I didn't check my spelling SYCOPHANCY!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:32 PM

Non person,
Unless they point out flaws in the logic of our novelty acts,

At last!
If I am part of the "novelty acts" please list all those historians who "point out flaws."

I did not think there were any.
How many do you have?

(It's none isn't it you silly non-person)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:34 PM

Oh I do not think so Lofty, it was one of your nameless ones who started te ball rolling with the "Howlers" - only thing was he couldn't provide any examples of any supplied by our side of the "Discussion" - we on the other hand could supply plenty of examples by those arguing against us (Jom's have been the most spectacular - but that bloody Flamingo - even you have to admit it was an absolute corker!! - I mean you couldn't even script it could you - thick as pig-shit or what???). I suppose that is why they opt for the anonymous GUEST facility afforded by this forum, I mean they would only have to make one such "F**k Up" and if they could be individually identified they'd never hear the end of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:42 PM

"My quotes are in context"

Hmm. Your infamous Geoffrey Wheatcroft "quote" was certainly in context, Keith. Unfortunately, even though you pretended it was a real quote, it wasn't, was it? You still haven't apologised for that deliberate piece of dishonesty. Whatever reputation you ever had is in complete tatters, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 03:59 PM

GUEST,Modette - 15 Dec 15 - 01:54 PM

1: For some reason my original post has been removed, presumably by a moderator. Why?

Probably just got lost - it happens - live with it,or resend it.

2: "For the record, Teribus, my PhD was awarded by London University, as was my degree and my MA. I'm not going to reveal its subject as I am a specialist in a particular historical area.

Oh great so we just have to take your word for it do we? Then Kow-Tow to your self-proclaimed superior knowledge - please forgive me but so far you sure as hell haven't shown any. So your area of specialisation has got nothing to do with what we are talking about.

3; History isn't just about 'hard facts and knowledge', it's about those voices which are rarely recognised in 'official' accounts of events. It's about documents which, even now, have still not been released into the public domain. It's about creating a voice for those who are under-represented. It's about recognising that historians themselves have been limited in their understanding because of access restrictions and embedded prejudices."

Oh WOW where do we begin:
(a) It most certainly has got something to do with "hard facts and knowledge" History is not abstract (I know Jom thinks it is - but there again it has been proven time after time Jom just "Makes Up Shit")
(b) Tell me Modette these voices that are " rarely recognised in 'official' accounts of events" how do you verify if they are authentic? What provides their provenance? Or do you like Jom just accept them automatically at face value because they suit your own in-built prejudices?
(c) Ah so you do agree that those who wrote about this particular period in history who have had access to new material must have a far better understanding than those who wrote before that information came into the public domain which means that you must agree with Keith and myself that those writing after 1970 have a far better grip and view on the overall picture than those who wrote before.
(d) ALL views have to be represented in any attempt at understanding any event in history - you most certainly do not skew it by pushing minority views to the exclusion of all others.
(e) Tell us Modette what restrictions are you referring to and please do tell us all what your embedded prejudices are? - Oh no wait a minute you are the only historian in the world that has none - unbelievable or what? Modette the purest of the pure.

4: Teribus and Keith really do not have a full appreciation of the nature of history.

Sorry Modette but on that showing it would appear that we have a damn sight better understanding than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:03 PM

Ooooh GUEST - 15 Dec 15 - 03:20 PM your desperation is showing - what is your next ploy to get this thread closed down? is it going to be one those clumsy hints like "We know where you live"?

If you have F**K all to contribute to the discussion why don't you just STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:08 PM

What are you on about, teribums? I don't have any 'nameless ones'. You really have lost it now haven't you!

Did you enjoy the game BTW? Probably makes more sense than most of the strange stuff you seem to be saying at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:44 PM

Out of order Teribus, way out of order.

If you want to be offensive to someone have a go at me. I Really don't give a damn.

Your response to Modette was not acceptable under any circumstance.

I believe an apology might be in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:51 PM

Jim Carroll - 15 Dec 15 - 03:02 PM

1: "Your words on our recording Tommy Kenny were:
"I bet he and his mates had a laugh at our gullibility in believing what he said"

Chapter and verse please Jom - or is this just more Made Up Shit

2: "You dismissed Harry Patch's statement on shellshock out of hand "because he said he'd never seen a case" and totally refused to respond to the fact that he was fighting next to people who certainly had."

Harry Patch (80 years after the event) said that he had never seen anyone suffering from shellshock - that means that he can never have seen anyone summarily executed for suffering from shellshock. Harry Patch joined up in 1916 and was sent to France with those he had trained with in July 1917 those around him were those he had joined up and trained with. In September 1917 he was wounded he along with everyone he was there with took part in a British Offensive, there were no German Offensives against British positions between July 1917 and September 1917 so where and how could those who Harry Patch was fighting alongside ever seen anyone who may have been sufering from shellshock (You see I believe Harry Patch when he said he never saw anyone suffering from shellshock - you Jom obviously don't - you are calling Harry Patch a liar).

3: You dismissed the report of summary executions from an old soldier becaus "they never happened" - simple as that.
If that isn't calling soldiers liars - what is?

I have dismissed reports of summary executions because I can find no evidence at all that they ever happened. Prove that the Tommy Kenny you interviewed WAS a soldier - your own slapdash approach negated your own research, your anglo-phobic nature just got the better of you and you f**ked up right royally. I do believe the memoirs and autobiographies of many, many other soldiers who fought for a damned sight longer on the western front than three months and guess what Jom - NOT ONE OF THEM REFERS TO ANY SUMMARY EXECUTIONS - so are they all liars - YOU seem to think so.

4: "I have at no time described soldiers as "dullards, simpletons and fools," - because they joined - I have taken great pains to describe the "emotional blackmail, the lying of the recruiting campaigns and the fact that employers forced them to join up under the threat of dismissal and also, as in Tommy Kenny's case, the enticements of three meals, a bed and a uniform which was offered to unemployed young men to get them to join."

Of course you did you state quite clearly that they were tricked into joining up - only thing is Jom you cannot identify those who were tricked - Between August 1914 and December 1914 over 1,200,000 men volunteered, they were eager to do "their bit", they did it out of duty and patriotism, they did not have to be tricked, they did not have to be lied to (Harry Patch knew exactly what he was headed for - his own brother had told him). Here is another anomaly in your Tommy Kenny saga - Liverpool between 1903 and 1916 was booming, it was expanding at a terrific rate it was described as being economically almost a "golden age" - so what unemployment? But first above all else prove that Tommy Kenny was ever a soldier - if what you say is true go back to his family and get the actual details of his service - somehow I don't think that you will bother.

5: STOP THE PRESS - BREAKING NEWS - NEVER BEFORE REVEALED "Tommy Kenny did not say he saw anybody shot - go ***** read what I wrote about what he said about executions

Sorry Jom don't believe you it is your narrative you go back and dig out the relevant passages where you say that Tommy Kenny NEVER saw anyone getting shot - he was your original "smoking gun" the guy who told you he saw it happen. So we now have your two key "witnesses" who saw NOTHING - Believe me or believe me not I have searched high and low and far and wide and I HAVE NOT COME ACROSS ONE SINGLE INSTANCE OF ANY SUMMARY EXECUTION - while you have maintained this fiction based on the vaguest hearsay and dramatic interpretation - Sorry Jom I deal in fact and substantive evidence, nothing whatsoever to do with "convenient dyslexia". Same old, same old, big on smears and allegations - hopelessly short on any substantive proof, evidence or detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 04:54 PM

I believe that GUEST Modette can answer for herself - don't you?

The points put to her are reasonable, rational and logical.

I already know that you know S.F.A. on the subject, so why would I address anything said by GUEST Modette to you TC.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:09 PM

So, in your mind the following is reasonable, rational and logical.

"so we just have to take your word for it do we? Then Kow-Tow to your self-proclaimed superior knowledge - please forgive me but so far you sure as hell haven't shown any. So your area of specialisation has got nothing to do with what we are talking about"

"Modette the purest of the pure"

Just one further querey: If I cannot reply for Modette why do you insist upon replying for KAOH.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:12 PM

Teribums - I wish you would stop using phrases that apply to Keith and yourself as well as anyone else. Like self proclaimed superior knowledge. Modette has said that he or she has a doctorate and specialist knowledge in a branch of history. I have no reason to doubt him or her yet. I have every reason to doubt you and Keith because you have both proven to be dishonest and dishonourable in the extreme. You have not stated what the qualifications for your proclamations are so we can only assume that your 'superior knowledge' is definitely self proclaimed whereas the word of modette is, as yet, unassailable. To use Keith's favourite ploy, everything I have read so far indicates that modette has a PhD so it must therefore be true... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 05:13 PM

"Chapter and verse please Jom - or is this just more Made Up Shit"
You've had it - you are lying - just as you lied about being ablt to trace Tommy's war record
"said that he had never seen anyone suffering from shellshock -"
He nevr claimed to - he said he hadn't - bu#t he almost certainly had served with soldiers who had - it was a common condition - but he's still a liar eh?
The other information is as valid as your claim that Tommy Kenny ever served - you can trace one soldier - you can trace them all -I've given you details of one decorated war hero - no cigar
"so are they all liars"
are you claiming you have evidence that they denied their existence?
Of course Ifucking can't - nobody can - but Paxman devoted half a programme on it and you've been given the actual posters that were used - a dzen of them.
"903 and 1916 was booming, it was expanding at a terrific rate"
Utter made-up bollocks - not for a school leaver it wasn't - and I do know this from my own family experience.
Now fuck off and get some real uninvented "facts"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:34 PM

Hey Lofty - here's another own-goal scored by your mate Raggy:

Raggy you felt it necessary for me to tell you what University I went to - why was that again? After all I wasn't the one banging on about a Doctorate or a Fellowship in some Royal Society was I. The one banging on about a Doctorate was GUEST Modette and by veiled inference she promoted herself as an expert on the study of history, possibly an historian with some sort of relevant specialisation in the subject at hand - and here you are just taking her word for it. Different sauces for Goose and Gander eh Raggy - how "socialist" of you.

Only thing is Raggy the little lecture GUEST Modette gave is the sort of meaningless waffle that I wouldn't even expect from a fourth former.

She accuses all other historians of having an "inbuilt bias" yet she has none and you swallow that FFS!! What a TC you really are, thankfully for reasoned discussion I am nowhere near as gullible.

If you lot keep jumping in and making statements and claims that are complete and utter bollocks I will continue to correct your wilder ravings - As I said, "It's like shooting fish in a barrel".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:40 PM

And another own-goal from Lofty himself:

"You have not stated what the qualifications for your proclamations are so we can only assume that your 'superior knowledge' is definitely self proclaimed whereas the word of modette is, as yet, unassailable."

Ask your pal Raggy Lofty he reckons that I am more knowledgeable on the subject of the First World War than most on this Forum and he acknowledges that I have a special interest in the subject. I on the other hand have made no such claims but I have been running circles round you jokers anytime you lot of self-confessed ignoramuses have voiced your idiotic opinions.

Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind Lofty.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 15 - 07:46 PM

Jim Carroll -15 Dec 15 - 05:13 PM any chance of a translation of that frothing rant Jom?? I mean really old son you're all over the place.

Any concrete evidence of summary executions? NO

Any evidence of "Jingoism" evident at this years RBL Festival of Remembrance? NO

As I said earlier big on unsubstantiated smears and allegations - totally short on proof to back any of them up.

You lot a re a complete and utter JOKE.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 02:38 AM

To refresh your memory - this is what I said about Tommy Kenny which you dismissed as him having a laugh at our expense in the pub with his mates - I thing you took me up about my use of the term "redcoats" (as you do)
"One of the most moving moments was when he told us about the deserters.
He described their not walking on dry ground for weeks on end - constant mud.
He described the permanent, deafening noise of gunfire and how young men, little more than boys, would turn around and walk away from the front, not in an attempt to desert, just to get way from the sound.   
The Redcoats would be sent out in trucks to pick them up and they would be brought back to base, where they would be tried and routinely sentenced to be shot by a drum-head court martial.
If another push came, they would be taken from the place they were held and put in the front line to fight.
If they survived, they would be returned to prison and later their sentence would be carried out.
Tommy described how you would be talking strangers, young men, about their homes and families, swapping cigarettes, and later would read a notice pinned up on the canteen wall that they had been executed for cowardice."
"Any concrete evidence of summary executions"
You've been given it on three separate occasions - not from official records, not from historians who came along a century later to tell us it was a glorious fight for freedom, but from the men who were there and experienced it.
"Any evidence of "Jingoism" evident at this years RBL Festival of Remembrance? NO"
I have not commented on the Festival of Remembrance - I didn't watch it - must have been somebody else (or maybe you dreamed it.
I have commented of so-called Christians who were part of sending young men to die monopolising it as a Christian ceremony
I commented on the schmaltzy way Eric Bogles song was turned into a cabaret number for the occasion, rather than the anti-war song it was designed to be.
I have also commented on the obscene personal profit possibly amounting to 10 million pounds made out of the sale of ceramic poppies last year.
That's all.
"1903 and 1916 was booming, it was expanding at a terrific rate"
You paint a rosy picture of the conditions Tommy Keny would have been experiencing in Liverpool when he was conned into joining up
I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS
It is an official account describing what was happening in Liverpool and Strasbourg from the beginning of the century to the outbreak of war.
Liverpool had one of the highest unemployment figures in Britain - it always has had.
This is how the document describes the plight of the unemployed:
"Contributory National Insurance (1911) reinforced this strategy. It was in the employer's interest to avoid hiring day labourers: each required a weekly contribution for health insurance purposes, a payment that was doubled if the worker was also a member of the unemployment scheme.29 Access to unemployment benefit, based on actuarial calculation, would separate the regular contributor from the rest (the ''morality of mathematics'', according to the young Winston Churchill). A stipulated annual number of contributions and benefits limited to fifteen weeks maximum each year identified unemployed claimants as temporarily jobless in previously regular employment. Long-term unemployment was not officially recognized: once benefit rights were exhausted, the claimant left the scheme and re-entered the pauper class. From the small print found in
the legislation, the British unemployed emerge: a select group of regularly employed men whose services were temporarily surplus to immediate requirements, in a scheme initially confined to trades known to suffer from seasonal fluctuations in demand."
Apart from the 1926 General Strike, the years leading up to the war were the nearest Britain ever got to to having a revolution, such was the mass poverty and unrest.
Tommy could not get work, nor could any of his mates - when he recovered from the wounds he had received in the fighting he eventually got work on the docks - the main employer in Liverpool,
was then operating the 'Pen' system, where men would be herded into a compound and be either selected or rejected for a day's work - the latter had to return home and come back the following day to go through the process all over again.
That was the 'land fit for heroes to live in' that Tommy and his contemporaries returned to.
You claim on pressure was put on young man to enlist
A REMINDER
You have ignored and refused to comment of the White Feather campaign, the emotional blackmail, the employers who forced men to join under the threat of dismissal, the massive unprecedented publicity campaign to cajole, shame and trick boys into joining up by suggesting it would be a short picnic in Europe - such as the concert party shows put on by Horatio Bottomley, who became a millionaire out of sending young man to their deaths and was later jailed as a crook and embezzler.
You ignore the disillusionment of soldiers on leave finding a Britain totally unaware of the fact that there was a war going on; the wealthiest dodging the rationing and hoarding food....
You ignore the reality of how the worst off suffered and the soldiers were cynically used as cannon fodder in what is now fully accepted as a war of attrition by all other than the Colonel Blimps and the Land-of-hope-and-gloriers like you pair      
You are alone here in propping up each others lies and distortions.
It is you pair who are "a complete and utter JOKE"
You have convinced no-one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 02:46 AM

Ah, that's OK them teribums. Your qualifications for pontificating about matters historic are the say so of someone you don't really know or like on a forum about folk music. While modette has a doctorate. And that makes you better qualified in what way? I really would stick to playing with boats if I were you. Logic and reason are obviously beyond your grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 04:47 AM

So just which University did you go to Teribums or are you one of those sad cases who say "The University of Life" You obviously have no education and believe you can "win" an argument just by shouting at people. That may work in the armed forces if you a stripe on your sleeve but it doesn't cut the mustard in Civvy Street which is were you are.

Modette made no claims to be unbiased she said "History isn't just about 'hard facts and knowledge', it's about those voices which are rarely recognised in 'official' accounts of events. It's about documents which, even now, have still not been released into the public domain. It's about creating a voice for those who are under-represented. It's about recognising that historians themselves have been limited in their understanding because of access restrictions and embedded prejudices"

Your understanding of English is at fault, nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 04:57 AM

" Your qualifications for pontificating about matters historic are the say so of someone you don't really know or like on a forum about folk music."

I have not mentioned anything about qualifications your pal Raggy did. What does Modette hold a Doctorate in? Neither you or I have a clue and I frankly couldn't care less, particularly after her little lecture on the study of it which was the biggest load of bollocks that I have read for some time.

Jom - sorry I didn't wade through your latest badly written, punctuated and presented offering - quite frankly I can no longer be arsed, as they are only ever rehashes of the crap you came out with before that was shot down at the time. You'll be telling us that Kitchener was forced to resign next, and that the wrong ammunition was sent to France, all the work of a hate filled, tooth-sucking, spiteful, little clown who for reasons best known, and best kept, to himself hates and loathes the country of his birth, who uses this Forum to attack it at every opportunity.

There were no summary Drumhead Courts Martial Jom the Courts Martial records for every Court Martial held are available - perhaps you should restrict yourself to the ones involving Death Sentences you will see that all such Courts were duly constituted in accordance with Army Regulations and that after the verdict had been passed the findings of the court were passed up the Chain of Command for review and IF the death sentence was verified the papers then went to the Commander of the Army in the Field for his authorisation to carry out the sentence - Haig only signed off on 1 in 10 cases RECORDED FACT

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM

If you really believe that in a time of war everything went by the book you really are naïve.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:08 AM

Ah, OK, teribums. So, you have no qualifications to make such judgements yet you deem someone else's take on the study of history the 'biggest load of bollocks' that you have read for some time. Have you any grounds for believing that modette may be lying or is it just because his or her view does not fit in with your preconceptions? I guess we all know the value of your judgements anyway so I don't really expect a reasonable answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:09 AM

GUEST unless you are GUEST Modette posting anonymously then you do not have the foggiest clue - I will wait for her to reply for herself.

What my education was? Is no concern of yours, but I know for a fact that I am holding my own against you clowns in this particular discussion to such an extent that the phrase "hand over fist" comes to mind.

Perhaps you are the anonymous GUEST who supplied the photograph of the Flamingo and presented it as a Red Swan, perhaps your the anonymous GUEST who wittered on about "Howlers" yet could not provide an example of even one of them. Good at asking questions designed to distract and divert - absolutely useless at answering any.

Any points to counter anything I have stated? NO

Any examples of "Jingoism" at the RBL Festival of Remembrance? NO

By the bye nameless one, when it comes to use and command of the English Language I leave quite a number of the "usual suspects" on this forum way behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:10 AM

Modette may have a doctorate.
She attacks me for saying the historians all agree my points even though it is a fact, and she attacked me for saying they did not all agree on blame for the famine, which is also a fact.

I put this to you again Dr. modette,

My views come from reading WW1 histories.
Nothing written in the last twenty years contradict them.
Nothing written in the last twenty years supports the views expressed by Jim.

Do you challenge any of those facts modette?
If you do, please give details.
I provide quotes from numerous historians working on that period.
What can you provide?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:17 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 16 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM

Go on then Raggy - Floors yours - give us the examples where in cases involving a potential death sentence being handed down things were not done as I described.

For any reading this who happen to be betting folk - my money is on Raggy NOT providing anything.

NO summary Courts Martial - NO summary executions. You prats have had two years to come up with any examples and have failed quite spectacularly to provide any.

Oh Dear, How Sad, Never Mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:17 AM

Professor, everything written in the last 20 years doesn't agree with you. The writing that don't, you have dismissed. That doesn't make them go away. They are still there whether you agree with them or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:20 AM

Steve, I never rely on my reputation.
I never expect to be believed.
When I quote historians I give a link to the source so there is no question about context.

Jim lied about that.
He has to lie because he has no case.

If you are not a liar Jim, give an example of an out of context quote.

These?

"Most of the poets who were widely read at the time – notably Rupert Brooke – were writing patriotic verse, and the "futility of war" line only emerged later. "Britain certainly thought it had legitimate reasons for going in, and I think it did," she says. "
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jul/25/margaret-macmillan-just-dont-ask-me-who-started-war

"Soldiers did not fight just because they were afraid of their officers. The toughest discipline was in the Italian army, which had the highest rate of desertion among the Allies. Soldiers fought for something. Indian soldiers, as their letters reveal, for honour, the British for king and country. As one French soldier said simply, 'I do not want to become a Boche.' "

"Stevenson argues persuasively that we must believe that men and women meant what they said when they talked about duty and sacrifice, that they accepted the war, even willingly."
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n23/margaret-macmillan/von-hotzendorffs-desire

"The wartime generals were not all cowards and incompetents as Alan Clark argued in his infamous The Donkeys (1961). A new generation of British historians, among others, has done much to explode such lazy generalisation and show that commanders developed both strategies and tactics that, in the end, worked."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7b6f0490-6347-11e3-a87d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2oJ9WwKyd


" A series of retrospective myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."
Whilst enthusiastic crowds certainly existed in August 1914, the new research suggests that this didn't reflect the whole picture. "Other gatherings around late July and early August opposed the war," Dr Pennell explains, "and many more people were shocked and disbelieving that such an event could happen."
"Once the decision to go to war was made on 4th August, the public rallied around what was perceived as a just cause. Their support was very often carefully considered, well-informed, reasoned, and only made once all other options were exhausted. People supported the war, but only because they felt it was the right thing to do in light of the circumstances.""
Dr. Catriona Pennel
http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_219199_en.html

American military historian Max Boot.

"World War I continues to be misunderstood by most ordinary people who have not yet caught up with the evolving consensus of historians. Three big myths, in particular, dominate the popular perception. First, that it was an accident, a war nobody wanted — a view immortalized in Barbara Tuchman's beautifully written if factually questionable 1962 book "The Guns of August." Second, that it didn't really matter who won — that there was scant difference between the Central and Entente Powers. And third, that soldiers were needlessly sent to slaughter by unfeeling and cloddish generals

Paxman/Open University
"Britain now had a tactically smarter, better organised army, capable of deploying men and machines to devastating effect"

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:24 AM

Raggytash "If you really believe that in a time of war everything went by the book you really are naïve"

Teritowelling "Go on then Raggy - Floors yours - give us the examples where in cases involving a potential death sentence being handed down things were not done as I described"

Do you REALLY think that things like summary court martials were recorded?? Stored in the Regimental History ?? Copies sent the High Command ?? The War Office?? Perhaps sent to the Times for publication in the newspapers??

Grow up man and stop reading boys comic versions.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:25 AM

Professor, everything written in the last 20 years doesn't agree with you. The writing that don't, you have dismissed. That doesn't make them go away. They are still there whether you agree with them or not.

Go ahead non person.
Produce something written by an historian in the last twenty years that disagree my 3 points.

Make my day!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:25 AM

Lofty you may well believe everything you read (e.g. about Red Swans) and you may well believe everything everybody tells you. I don't, particularly in an argument where they just float in information about themselves meant to silence and intimidate, and even more so when what they go on to say is so patently idiotic that it beggars description.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:30 AM

I am pretty sure that is Raggy's point, teribums, but to try and make it clear you need to ask yourself the following questions. Do you believe, in a time of such death and destruction, that everything was done by the book? Do you believe that if anyone in power broke the rules it would be recorded anywhere but in the minds of the men it affected? Do you believe that all the men who died were victims of enemy fire only? Do you simply not accept the possibility that some of those suffering from the intense stress of the situation made mistakes and that these mistakes were covered up?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 15 - 05:30 AM

Rag, if such things had happened, people would have borne witness.
All those anti war poets.
The memoirs of anti war people like Robert Graves and Siegfried Sassoon.

No one remembers seeing or even hearing of such a thing.
If it had happened someone would.
You can find no evidence because there is none.