BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:09 AM

Dave, let's stop playing these games and just discuss the issues.
Do you have a point to make about the issue under discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 11:14 AM

Ahhh - So, when you have no answer it is let us stop playing games, but when it suits you, you are more than happy to twist the words of others? Sorry Keith, doesn't work that way.

Yes, I do have a point to make about the issue under discussion. I made it very early on. It was to do with whether the armistice day events were Jingoism or Commemoration. It is easy to see what the issue under discussion should be. It is in the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM

Ooooh an officer cook eh, Christ that'll really throw Jom out.

Patently a fact that you lot delight in warbling on about things you know S.F.A. about, then object when your glaring mistakes and omissions are pointed out.

Someone down the thread asked about the collective referred to as "you people"? They know full well who they are and referring to them as "you people" is a tad better than collectively referring to them as "you twats" which is undoubtedly what they are as can be determined by their behaviour on this forum.

Loved this one from one of our unknown and nameless contributors:

"Keith doesn't care about how many were killed. Keith cares that WE won." - GUEST - 06 Dec 15 - 03:36 PM

Hate to burst your bubble you complete and utter pillock but if you happen to be fighting in an all out global conflict THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU WIN IT If you have any problem grasping that concept then you really should never, ever be allowed to be unsupervised under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM

Ooooh an officer cook eh, Christ that'll really throw Jom out.

Patently a fact that you lot delight in warbling on about things you know S.F.A. about, then object when your glaring mistakes and omissions are pointed out.

Someone down the thread asked about the collective referred to as "you people"? They know full well who they are and referring to them as "you people" is a tad better than collectively referring to them as "you twats" which is undoubtedly what they are as can be determined by their behaviour on this forum.

Loved this one from one of our unknown and nameless contributors:

"Keith doesn't care about how many were killed. Keith cares that WE won." - GUEST - 06 Dec 15 - 03:36 PM

Hate to burst your bubble you complete and utter pillock but if you happen to be fighting in an all out global conflict THE ONLY IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU WIN IT If you have any problem grasping that concept then you really should never, ever be allowed to be unsupervised under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:39 PM

"!I have only ever defended the British and Empire soldiers who fought and died in it
What a load of utter bollocks - the best yet
You have defended it as a just war
You have claimed it wasn't Imperialist
You have denied or ignored the ruthless moral blackmail the trickery used to get men to enlist
You have ignored or denied the cockups which caused thousands upon thousands of deaths.
Far from "defending the soldiers, whenever anything a soldier has said which contradicts your insane jingoism you have either directly called or implied that they are either "gullible " or "liars" - you have supported them in the way "a rope supports a hanging man".
You do this whenever you are confronted with the enormity of your behaviour - either deny you have said it, say you meant something else or blamed somebody for your opinions.
You have neither self respect, honesty or the courage of your convictions.
Ypor accusing Dave of "playing these games" is laughable - that is all you pair of clowns have done from day one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM

"as I have described myself over and over again a humanist (small L) and a pacifist"

Thanks Jom – best laugh I've had today – a humanist with a small L eh – hilarious absolutely hilarious.
From the mouth of our tooth-sucking Anglophobe we also get this (Same post):

"It [The First World War] was an Imperialist war brought about by right wing politics.
World War two was brought about by extremist right wing politics driven by a desire for world domination, added to which was a crusade to wipe out an entire people because of their religious beliefs and cultural background."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 12:59 PM

They know full well who they are and referring to them as "you people" is a tad better than collectively referring to them as "you twats"

I have no idea, termibums. Enlighten us. Do bear in mind that Keith was talking about people who say they know something about the history of WW1. Who do you mean by 'you twats'? Remembering of course that either you or Keith have already determined that abuse is only used in the absence of reasoning...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:11 PM

I too seem to be "you people" as well as "you twats" and even "Musktwat". Mind you, he called a post not by me a "Musktwat" the other day so presumably a knowledge of his dialect of Klingon might be useful. If he means Musket, I thought he or they post under their name? I don't for the very reason the trolls on here love to address the person rather than what they post.

There again, if I knew what he was on about I doubt I could understand him without professional commentary by a psychiatrist.

That post naming those who know better than others. Any chance of you doing it again Woodcock? It was truly bellyachingly funny 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 01:48 PM

Teribus,

The most important thing is the welfare of your citizens. This is far more important than whether you win or not. You can argue in some cases, such as the war with Nazi Germany, or a possible war with ISIS (I am still far convinced that there is such a war) that your citizens welfare would suffer so much in the event of defeat that victory would be imperative. In other cases, not so, I would argue that WWI was a case where it was not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:35 PM

The basis of MAD.

Winning can only be based on which became a glowing puddle first, Moscow or Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:39 PM

Dave, I am just going to discuss the issues.
If you have nothing more to add, why do you come here. A few days ago you just wanted it to stop!

Jim, I just defend the soldiers.
They did not invade and occupy foreign lands.
Theirs was a just war. That is also the considered opinion of the historians.

All the nations had empires, but Britain's fight was not imperial.
We would have kept out had Belgium not been invaded. No imperial motive.

You have denied or ignored the ruthless moral blackmail the trickery used to get men to enlist

So have Pennell, Macmillan, Paxman/OU just quoted on this thread.
You will find no historian who thinks there was any sigfnificant amount of what you imagine.

You have ignored or denied the cockups which caused thousands upon thousands of deaths.

Of course I have never denied mistakes were made.
A few commanders were incompetent. Most were not but they all had to learn an entirely new kind of warfare.

your insane jingoism
I am no jingo. You will find no jingoism in any post of mine.

I only ever defended three opinions.
Britain had little choice but to fight, the people accepted that, and the army was generally well and competently led.

I have supported each with unambiguous quotes from numerous historians.
YOU HAVE FOUND NONE THAT DISAGREE!

Unless and until you can, we have nothing to discuss.
Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:44 PM

Dave,
I would argue that WWI was a case where it was not so.

You are entitled to do so, but you would be arguing against the historians about history.
I would argue that makes you a fool.

You say you know of no historian capable of objective research.
You did not justify that strange claim. Do you know of any at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 02:54 PM

Dave, I am just going to discuss the issues.
If you have nothing more to add, why do you come here. A few days ago you just wanted it to stop!

I did indeed, Keith, and still do, but while you continue to misrepresent me and anyone else who dares to question you I am happy to put the other side of the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 03:58 PM

Keith, I think you are confusing Daves, I am not DtG.

Historians may indeed argue that victory in WWI was worth the losses in the trenches. However seeing as they were not the ones who died in the trenches, I rate their opinions as moot. I am not arguing about history. I am arguing about deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:18 PM

Keith, I think you are confusing Daves, I am not DtG.

That statement would have been better stopped just prior to "Daves".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 04:29 PM

I am not arguing about history. I am arguing about deaths.

Very well put.

We are indeed different people, Guest Dave, but that is what I have been saying all along. To argue whether one man led people to their deaths is better than another man who led more people to their deaths is futile at best and heartless at worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:42 PM

Sacrifice is easy when sat in a comfy armchair in Hertford.

Tales of competence and understanding are hard to take in from a grave in a foreign land I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:47 AM

In our free and safe world it may seem crazy to have to fight for anything.
They did not believe it safe to allow a cruel invader to prevail.
They still held to that belief through the times of maximum suffering and death, and to the end of the war and after.
You think they were wrong, but what is your opinion worth?
Apart from Ferguson, every historian has come to the conclusion based on informed hindsight that they were right.

Like all normal, intelligent people, I get my knowledge of history from the history books.
Yours comes from somewhere else, and you really believe you have a better understanding than those professionals!

That is why we can not agree.
Unless and until you can find anyone with actual knowledge who still believes your myths, I leave you to wallow in your ignorance.

Be assured, I have not confused the Daves.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 04:50 AM

I leave you to wallow in your ignorance.

If only that were true...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:38 PM

Dave, re your statement that historians tailors the facts to suit their prejudices and that you cannot name a historian who carries out his research in a scientific manner. You are wrong , very wrong about this. I have been both a teacher and a student of history for many years. I spent a lot of my time teaching students how to do meticulous historical research.
As I have said on other threads, historians may not be neutral, but they can be objective and for the most part, they are. It requires patience and discipline to achieve this and no historian that I have met has altered or twisted facts to suit a political or personal agenda. That is a sin often committed by "hobby" historians" who have not taken the time to do intensive research.
   
You cannot name an historian who carries out his research in a scientific manner ! I would be very interested to know what historians you have read and how you came to that sweeping and erroneous conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:49 PM

As with politics , History may be better served as a discipline taught as Historical Science?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 12:53 PM

WHAT advice would you, (HiLo}, have for a young historian regarding scientific history advocates and their methodology?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:04 PM

That is a very good question Donuel. I would not advocate for History as a social science, or any other kind of science. But I would strongly recommend that anyone seriously contemplating the study of history enroll in a school that has a rigorous department of studies in historical research methods. I have taught a course of this nature and many students find it difficult at first, but once they become adept at recognizing their own biases and illiminating them, they find the research and writing of history much more satisfying.
I have a great respect for the study and research methods of Science, but I think that the study of science is quite different from the study of history, although there are some basic rules to be applied in the study any discipline.
What I often see in these threads are comments by people who really don't seem to read much history and perhaps do not understand that it is a discipline and how hard one must work at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 01:39 PM

Apologies for bad spelling, finger faster that brain these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:34 PM

Dave said,
I rate their(historians') opinions as moot (because they were not there).

The people who were there agreed .

I am not arguing about history. I am arguing about deaths.

You are arguing about history. The issues are historical, and intensely researched.

You reject the findings of the history books and the professionals who research and write them, believing you somehow know more about it.
That is an enormous conceit, and a delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 02:46 PM

With regard to the most important thing if engaged in an all out war, a global conflict, I suggested that the most important thing is that you win it but from Guest Dave we get this muddled nonsense that contradicts itself:

"The most important thing is the welfare of your citizens. This is far more important than whether you win or not."

Here comes the qualification and the contradiction

"You can argue in some cases, such as the war with Nazi Germany, or a possible war with ISIS (I am still far convinced that there is such a war) that your citizens welfare would suffer so much in the event of defeat that victory would be imperative."

Followed by this piece of idiocy born from complete and utter ignorance and astonishing arrogance:

"In other cases, not so, I would argue that WWI was a case where it was not so."

Let me see care to tell us all how you can tell in advance of a war which case applies? You'd need to be psychic wouldn't you?

Listen to this from Jom and tell me if you can see how idiotic it is:

"It [The First World War] was an Imperialist war brought about by right wing politics.

World War two was brought about by extremist right wing politics driven by a desire for world domination, added to which was a crusade to wipe out an entire people because of their religious beliefs and cultural background."

OK so the First World War was a war of Empires practically all the 1914 combatants were imperial in one form or another some fought to increase their Imperial power by conquest, others fought to preserve their empires. Jom seems to believe it was brought about by right wing politics - he's wrong of course but no-one will ever convince him of that so I see no point in trying.

Now onto the Second World War again caused by right wing politics according to Jom, but if it was driven by a desire for world domination doesn't that by it's very nature (i.e. world wide domination) make it an imperial war? Can you dominate the world without imperial pretensions? This bid for domination by Germany in WWII was like the bid for imperial expansion by Germany in WWI to be achieved by aggression and conquest.

So tell me Dave how come WWII is GOOD whereas WWI was BAD? The wealth, security and safety of the way of life enjoyed by everyone in Europe and everyone in the British Isles was as much under threat in 1914 as it was in 1939 and oddly enough the respective governments in power at the time read it clearly and correctly and thankfully acted accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:27 PM

Keith I am not saying WWII was good, no war is good. But the consequences of defeat in WWI would have been much more marginal, except for the ruling elites. Defeat in WWII would have been disasterous for a number of minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:32 PM

Perhaps we can get her out of Silent Witness to find out how so many of our officers managed to be shot in the back?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 03:58 PM

Guest, what is your source for this information. I have found no source that supports it, Dave, can you comment on my response to your comments about the bias of historians. I would be curious to know what Historians you have read and are speaking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:15 PM

So this is why wars last so long eh?

Nothing to see here. Perhaps the inter web is only good for porn after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM

the findings of the history books and the professionals

Which history books and which professionals, Professor?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 07:19 PM

Which ones would you suggest Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:12 PM

I'm not a renowned educator and expert like you, the Professor and Terrabyte, Hi. I'll leave it all up to you three to set the world right.

By the way, which real bookstores are YOUR works available in? You've only fulfilled one of the Professor's many criteria so far by being alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 08:39 PM

I knew you were not are renowned educator Greg. I just thought you might have something constructive to say since you were asking about history books!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:11 PM

As usual, Hi, you missed the whole point. Rock on.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 Dec 15 - 09:58 PM

I was not expecting a political Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 12:37 AM

Should read

I was not expecting a point Greg !

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 02:22 AM

GUEST,Dave - 08 Dec 15 - 03:27 PM

Keith I am not saying WWII was good, no war is good. But the consequences of defeat in WWI would have been much more marginal, except for the ruling elites. Defeat in WWII would have been disastrous for a number of minorities."

Agreed no war is good but some are necessary and actually do have to be fought, primarily those are wars that are planned and pushed for by one of the protagonists as a means of attaining something that they would never have gained through negotiation - Germany's actions in 1914 and from 1936 onward are classic examples of this, there was never ever going to be any way to avoid those wars. As today with IS there is no negotiation with them and they have clearly stated that, they have clearly stated their aims and in the future as they see it our values, our freedoms and our way of life have no place, so we have fight them and we have to destroy them.

I know I will never get a response to this question but I really would be interested to know why you believe that the consequences of "Entente Powers" losing the First World War would have been marginal?

Had Great Britain remained neutral and had stayed out of the war in 1914 the following would have been the case

1: Belgium would cease to exist as it would have been annexed by Germany - so you now have the German High Seas Fleet and an Army of some 5 million men only fours hours steaming from London

2: Annexation of all the overseas possessions of both Belgium and France by Germany, in order that Germany could have her "place in the sun".

3: Using her newly acquired overseas possessions Germany could have then engaged in a subversive campaign to destabilised and destroy the British Empire to Germany's advantage - The Kaiser after all had tried that with the Boers in South Africa. With our Empire riven with trouble we would be economically ruined and that Dave would have affected everybody in the United Kingdom irrespective of class or position.

Now had Great Britain joined the fight in 1914 and the "Entente Powers" had lost - Just imagine what reparations Germany would have demanded from the richest country in the world - we would have lost everything and that would have affected everybody - so much for your "marginal" consequences.

On the reparations thing - take a look at what the Germans demanded from Russia under the terms of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 02:42 AM

Is that an example of your crystal ball or hairy balls?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 02:49 AM

Had Great Britain remained neutral and had stayed out of the war in 1914 the following would have been the case

I know it was a possibility or even a probability but not a certainty. We have had this discussion before and you cannot present such speculation as fact. Who knows what would have really happened? No one. Maybe most of the lives lost in WW1 would have been saved. Maybe WW2 would never have happened. Maybe many of those people who would have lived would have worked toward peace and we would have ended up with a much more united world today?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:03 AM

Keith's point 3 is very much speculation, I could equally speculate that Britain and Germany could have formed a partnership, not a military partnership but an economic and trading partnership. This could, and it is still speculation, have prevented the rise of Hitler and WWII. As for being economically ruined, well we were anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:16 AM

Ah , dave, now that you are back, i would really like an answer about all of the biased historians you,ve read!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:53 AM

"We have had this discussion before and you cannot present such speculation as fact."

What speculation Gnome? You really should do some reading. All I have stated above "Had Great Britain stayed out of WWI" was stated by the Germans BEFORE the start of the war:

1: To Belgium - If you resist our armies we will annex your country

2: To Belgium - If you resist our armies we will annex your overseas possessions

3: To France - We will strip you of your colonies and overseas possessions by way of reparation.

What speculation? Do you deny the fact that with an annexed Belgium as part of the new greater Germany that the German Fleet could not be based in Belgian ports within four hours steaming of London? Do you deny that a German Army of 5 million would remain in existence while the Army of Great Britain would have remained at its 1914 strength of only 440,000 men? Do you rule out any attempt to increase the size of that Army would have been instantly viewed by the German masters of Europe as a provocation?

What speculation? Are you trying to tell us that the Kaiser didn't arm the Boers in South Africa during the Boer War? Are you trying to tell us that the Kaiser wasn't extremely jealous of Great Britain's Empire and wished to see it destroyed?

GUEST,Dave - 09 Dec 15 - 03:03 AM - Yes by all means you could speculate, but what would be the grounds for your speculations - I can at least give fairly solid grounds, arguments and track indicators to back up what I have said - I have seen no evidence at all that would indicate that in the early part of the 20th Century that Great Britain and Germany were anything other than bitter rivals, making any "partnership" along the lines you described as being highly improbable and therefore unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 03:58 AM

I am simply saying that your statement Had Great Britain remained neutral and had stayed out of the war in 1914 the following would have been the case is speculation. Neither you, Keith or anyone can possibly know what would have happened had any past event been different. Your blustering does not alter that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 04:12 AM

HiLo - I am sure the other Dave can speak for himself but I would point you in the direction of Dominic Alexander. Some have dismissed him as being too biased to have a say in this debate and not being a 'real historian'. Interesting article by him on the Counterfire Site which will inevitably be dismissed by some as being biased. There are other examples but I am sure you can find them by yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 04:35 AM

Thanks to DtG for that link. Its a review of two books which present different views of the origins of WWI. The problem is that historians such as Hastings are interested mostly in using history to support a particular world view. Historians disagree on whose fault WWI was. Was it the Germans, the Russians, the Austrians the Serbians, the British? What is certain though was that it wasn't the fault of the millions of working class soldiers from all of those countries who died in the trenches and the deserts. It was the fault of the rulers. This is what historians fail to grasp, because to them history is the story of the rulers.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 04:44 AM

Dave, if a grandchild became fascinated by the French Revolution, the Armada or the fire of London, would you get them a book from the library, a local bookshop (WH Smith say), record a documentary, or direct them to Counterfire, a political website of some hard left activist group?

Why would anyone go there to learn history? All you get is agitprop supporting their class war agenda.
Your man has written no single book on WW1 history, just a political pamphlet no longer available.
How about perusing some far right wing sites for balance?
I am sure you would find some activist with views on WW1 and WW11 that also differ in perspective from the real professors.

Normal people learn history from history books.
Why do you have such a problem with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 04:58 AM

Dave, if a grandchild became fascinated by the French Revolution, the Armada or the fire of London, would you get them a book from the library, a local bookshop (WH Smith say), record a documentary, or direct them to Counterfire, a political website of some hard left activist group?

I would do all of the above and more. I hope my grandsons will grow up with enough sense to realise that one point of view does not give the whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 05:56 AM

Would you also direct them to far right sites then Dave?
I would avoid sites that reject the wisdom and knowledge to be found in the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 15 - 06:30 AM

I would point out that there are many viewpoints and suggest that they explore them all before making up their own minds. I would hope that they will will grow to have the sense to recognise the dangers of bias in any any direction and the compassion to know that war is a senseless waste of human life.