BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 05:51 AM

I have tried this before and thought it was a good idea. Can't remember what happened.

Keith, how about you use the phrase 'all histories I have read recently confirm my three points.' Nothing contentious in there. It is a proven fact that no one can dispute. Remember though that 'all histories I have read recently' is not the same as 'all historians'.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Fred
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:00 AM

By his own admission Keith has only recently started reading Max Hastings book "Catastrophe" despite this he has been citing a book he has not actually read for over a year. Now we'll have to wait for the excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:10 AM

How about 'All histories any of us has read or is aware of, in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.'

Why do some of you reject all the histories any of us has read or is aware of in the last twenty years?
Is that rational?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:11 AM

You seem to confuse reading with prejudging.

Not to mention understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:15 AM

Fred,
By his own admission Keith has only recently started reading Max Hastings book "Catastrophe" despite this he has been citing a book he has not actually read for over a year.

I did not cite that book once before I read it last week.
I have cited articles and essays written by Hastings, but never his book. I only read it because Jim made such an issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Fred
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:23 AM

You first mentioned Hastings on the 7th December. LAST YEAR.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:37 AM

GUEST - 10 Dec 15 - 05:33 AM

Most intelligent thing that you have contributed to date - please keep it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:42 AM

How about 'All histories any of us has read or is aware of, in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.'

That would not be factual. I have no idea what anyone else has read, have you? You can say that anything YOU have read does but you cannot speak for anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 06:53 AM

Chaps you seem to think that I am trying to convince you all of something - I am not, I know that that would be an impossible task as even in your own self-confessed ignorance of the subject you all feel as though you know much more about it than people who have made it their life's work and received academic acclaim for that work.

The WWI threads and those hardy annuals where people have a pop at the Festival of Remembrance always bring out the same old myths, lies and misrepresentations and as long as you keep trotting those out the likes of Keith A and myself will introduce you to the facts rather than your fantasies - and to date none of you have ever challenged or countered any of the facts stated, your normal resort has been to personal abuse.

Throughout these threads Keith A has challenged you to come up with the name of just one historian who disagrees with the three points originally raised - and to date after two years you have not been able to supply one whose specialty IS the First World War.

Keep dancing on the head of that pin Gnome it really does provide endless amusement.

By the way whatever happened to GUEST and his/her example of how historical theories are cyclical? GUEST never did get back to us on that did he/she - wonder why not? Could it be that he/she was talking a complete and utter load of bollocks?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Fred
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 07:13 AM

Therein lies the difficulty these people face. Every time they present a historian the work is discounted for various specious criteria set by yourself or predominantly Keith. The latest being your reference to someone who's speciality is the First World War. Now Hastings, for example, has written on many subjects and has not specialised in WW1 history. Do we therefore discount him?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 07:13 AM

DtG,
That would not be factual. I have no idea what anyone else has read, have you?

Yes, because we have discussed it openly.
If they had found something that contradicted me, it would have been posted.

Fred,
You first mentioned Hastings on the 7th December. LAST YEAR.

Much earlier actually Fred.
I have cited articles and essays written by Hastings, but never his book. I only read it because Jim made such an issue of it.
I did not cite that book once before I read it last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 07:19 AM

How about this DtG?
'All histories of the last twenty years any of us has been able to quote confirm my three points.'

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:00 AM

That looks fine to me, Keith. Try to remember it next time you are tempted to say all historians agree with you :-)

Teribums

Keep dancing on the head of that pin Gnome it really does provide endless amusement.

If you can find endless amusement on a BS section of a web forum, well done but you really need to get out more. Glad to be of service to the disadvantaged :-) While enjoying yourself so much, can you tell us whether you still believe that you can say with certainty what would have happened if any historic event had not occurred? If so, surely you could amuse yourself far better by writing alternative reality fiction?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:01 AM

Just some observations.. Keith reads a lot of history, Teribus know a lot of history. Some here appear to read very little history and are what are known as "google" scholars. Some just come to argue. no matter what evidence is produced they insist on sawing sawdust.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:06 AM

Keith in fact has read little to judge by his posts, and understood less. Now if you said he was a google scholar few here would disagree with you. If you want verification of the same look back through his posts over the past year.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:17 AM

I have read many of Keiths posts, I believe he reads history and understands what he reads. I do not always agree with his interpretation, but he does read, it shows in what he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:19 AM

GUEST - 10 Dec 15 - 08:06 AM

"Keith in fact has read little to judge by his posts, and understood less. Now if you said he was a google scholar few here would disagree with you. If you want verification of the same look back through his posts over the past year."

If judging by posts is the metric you wish to measure by then GUEST you would appear to know and understand S.F.A., about anything to the degree that you could not even be viewed by anybody as being any sort of scholar at all. As to verification well at least a person could check back to see what Keith A or indeed even myself have previously said about something (Jom has done that on a number of occasions and it has blown up in his face every time") bit more difficult to that for though isn't it - but there again as you never actually say anything and your posts tend to say nothing germane and are mostly mere ad hominem attacks there is no real point in checking back on them

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:20 AM

Not sure what your point is HiLo. Those are pretty obvious observations. How will they help to progress the discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:27 AM

"Jim Hastings supports my case" 26th Nov 2014

"Max Hastings own words" 26th Nov 2014

"Max Hastings does not support your view" 26th Nov 2014

Bold assertions from someone who NOW acknowledges he has only just read the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:28 AM

My point is that there are those who present a fairly reasonable set of facts and those who come merely to argue. The discussion will probably not progress as long as attacks are made against people and not against ideas or history.
As for not getting my point, I can hardly believe that it was that obscure.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:41 AM

Sorry, HiLo. As I am sure you know it can be difficult to get things across on an on-line forum. I still don't know what your point is. If that makes me stupid, so be it but it would be better if you spelt it out rather than risk a misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:48 AM

HiLo's contributions add more to the discussion than your pin head dancing Gnome. It would appear that in terms of this discussion one side would appear to need to up the factual content of their game and provide substantiation for their views and that in his/her opinion that side is not the side Keith A or myself are arguing.

Getting back to speculation and informed assessment If A stands on the bank of a river, should he fall in he might drown, he might not, but as he doesn't fall in, whether he may have drowned or not is pure speculation for someone who knows nothing about A. If on the other hand someone did know that A was an extremely good swimmer and supremely confident in the water then it would be an educated and informed assessment that had A fallen in the river then A would have survived. Further factors could be added to this for someone who knows the river and the location along its banks where A was standing. In exactly the same way you in your own self-confessed ignorance might speculate about the situation, circumstances and factors pertaining to Europe in the summer of 1914 and state that nobody could know with any certainty what would have happened, others fully up to speed with the information available could with regard to how various courses of action would affect them. That is after all how any decision is made Gnome - carry on dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 08:54 AM

I think I have been very clear..some people here know about history..some don't know about history but insist on arguing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:02 AM

Some people have said that a historian agrees with them even when they finally admit they haven't even READ that historian until a year AFTER they claimed his agreement. Now I don' know what you call that were you live Hilo but on this side of the pond we call it lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:04 AM

That is after all how any decision is made

It is indeed how any decision is made. As I said at the outset, there is a distinct possibility or even a probability that things will go that way. But that is not a certainty. Your assertion that Had Great Britain remained neutral and had stayed out of the war in 1914 the following would have been the case is therefore invalid. You could have said 'may have been the case', 'possibly would have been the case' or even 'probably have been the case'. But you didn't. You said it would have been the case. Neither you nor anyone else can be certain of that. You know that, which is why, I suspect, you are now relying in poorly aimed abuse rather than reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:10 AM

Whatever side of the pond you are on guest, your statement is called gross misinterpretation. You ought to read more and post less.
Dave, you are doing it again..sawing sawdust.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:12 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks HiLo. How come you are happy to name those you believe do know about history but shy away from naming those you believe do not?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:16 AM

Well, if you insist that I name names..Dave The Gnome knows very little history. Evidence, read his post..argument for its own sake. nothing more.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:19 AM

...and I have no idea what sawing sawdust means in this context :-( I thought it was akin to crying over spilt milk?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:20 AM

Guest,
Some people have said that a historian agrees with them even when they finally admit they haven't even READ that historian until a year AFTER they claimed his agreement.

I had read that historian, and all the others I have used.
I had read numerous essays and article which I quoted agreeing my views.
I gave the quotes with links to their source so they could be seen in their original intended context.

I have never even referred to what is in Hastings' book until Jim started quoting his review.


All histories of the last twenty years any of us have been able to quote confirm my three points.
On what basis do you reject them all Guest?
If you believe you know more than all of them, your conceit and stupidity are truly epic!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:28 AM

Dave, sawing sawdust means saying the same bloody thing over and over..What "context" are you talking about ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:47 AM

Ah - OK. Never heard it in that form. Looked it up since and found it being defined as something pointless as well as what I thought it was. IE -

In connection with our life, the sawdust is like our past. Many people tend to get back on their past. They used to think back of their sad moments, regretting and worrying those moments that are over and done with. When you are doing this, you are merely trying to saw sawdust.And if you are doing it in some portions of your life, I tell you,you will never find happiness but instead you will live in a life full of worries and regrets!Don't be a prisoner of your past!

This quote is actually similar to the saying, "Don't cry over spilt milk."..Yes, this saying is a commonplace, a platitude.

In the context of this thread and my understanding of it, it did not make sense. In the sense of saying things over and over again, then surely everyone on this thread, apart from newcomers such as Guest, Dave, are equally guilty of that offence. Aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 09:57 AM

You don't embarrass easily, do you ?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:10 AM

Had Great Britain remained neutral and had stayed out of the war in 1914 the following would have been the case following a German victory:

1: If Belgian forces opposed the Germans (Which they did) it would result in the annexation of Belgium by Germany - this was clearly stated to the Belgian Government by the Germans BEFORE the invasion - no speculation about that it was a clearly worded statement regarding what the consequences would be should the Belgians elect to fight. Any doubt in your mind there Gnome? If so one wonders what sort of a warning you would have to receive before you realised you were being warned of something.

2: By way of reparations should your armies resist ours we will strip you of your colonies and overseas possessions - No speculation there - a direct consequence of us defeating you means that we take over your colonies and overseas possessions.

3: As a result of a German victory in Belgium, Belgium then becomes part of Germany in much the same as Alsace-Lorraine did after the Franco-Prussian War. The formerly Belgian Ports of Antwerp; Zeebrugge and Ostend would therefore become German ports capable of being used as bases for the German High Seas Fleet. The ports of Zeebrugge and Ostend are within four hours steaming of the Thames Estuary and London - No speculation Gnome just FACT

The likely threat of the above prompted Great Britain to join the "entente powers" in their fight against Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:15 AM

Why, what should be embarrassing? People have tried all sorts from abusing my stature, questioning my intelligence and morals, and casting aspersions on my roots and parentage. None of it matters from people I know little about and care even less for. They do not know me and whatever they say is usually well wide of the mark anyway. It does surprise how that people on here get so heated about inconsequential matters though.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:17 AM

"It does surprise how that people on here get so heated about inconsequential matters though."

You more than most pin dancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:21 AM

I did none of the above..I said you don't know much history and you argue for the sake of arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:26 AM

Another possible result had Britain remained neutral in WW1 is that WW2 may not have happened. My Dad would not have left Poland. You would have no one to provide your endless amusement and you would be stuck with playing soldiers. But WW2 did happen. I stated this morning that I would fart the Marseillaise in E flat. I haven't yet. Trouble is with your 'facts', teribums, is that none of them did actually happen did they? You are filling in the gaps with what you believe would happen and missing the vital point that if anything can go wrong, it will.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:31 AM

I said you don't know much history and you argue for the sake of arguing.

I beat you too it. I said years ago that I know little about the subject in hand. I do not believe I argue for the sake of arguing but, even if it was so, I do not believe there is anything wrong with that. However, my arguments have consistently been ones that challenge the rigid assertions made by some people and, so far, I have managed to get at least one to dilute their statements. I consider that a win/win situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:44 AM

So you know little history, you argue for the sake of arguing and that is a win win situation. Why would you spend time arguing over things about which you clearly know nothing. Very odd reasoning..but...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 10:51 AM

You more than most pin dancer.

Not in recent times, teribums. Not got riled on here since I realised that there was no one worth getting riled over :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:01 AM

Why would you spend time arguing over things about which you clearly know nothing.

But I am not arguing about history, HiLo. That is what I have said I know very little about. I have never disputed any of Keith's historical points, just his assertion that all historians agree with him. That just does not make sense to me when it is obvious the no one is familiar with the work of all historians. How much of this thread or the past ones have you read?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:07 AM

"Another possible result had Britain remained neutral in WW1 is that WW2 may not have happened. My Dad would not have left Poland."

See anything monstrously wrong with that Gnome? Ah sod it I'd hate to see you struggle, but it is blindingly obvious -

Had Britain stayed out of WWI then there would never have been a Poland for your Dad to leave - By God are you bone thick or what???

What facts of mine are wrong Gnome?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 11:12 AM

But I am not arguing about history, HiLo.

But history is the discussion Dave!
All you do is try to provoke off-issue arguments.
If you have no actual contribution to make, what are you doing here?
You are just a trouble maker.

You have not caused any significant "dilution" of anything. Just endless hair splitting and nit picking and distractions from the actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 01:26 PM

Well, teribums, I may not know WW1 history but I do know quite a bit about Poland and a lot about my family. They were from Byalistok, near the borders of Belarus, Lithuania, the Ukraine and Kalingrad. In its history both Poland and Bialystok have been invaded and ruled by various other countries but in all that time, they both still existed. My family still may or may not have left Poland. or whatever it may or may not have been called at the time.

You are making the same assumption as you have in the other posts, that something that did not happen would have, None of this is fact as it did not happen. You will note that I said WW2 may not have happened. Had WW1 not panned out the way it did so many things may or may not have happened that my Gradfather may or may not not have left Russia, my Grandmother may or may not have married someone else and my Dad may or may not not have been born. It is all fantasy. It never happened. And if that is your best shot at abuse you are still firing blanks :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 01:27 PM

Keith. Tell me again, do all historians agree with you? No cigar to you for the pretty feeble abuse either. What am I doing here? Pointing out how silly these discussions can get and how daft some of the contributors are. Believe it or not, there are those who think I am a bone thick troublemaker, yet they still take the time to argue with me. How silly is that ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 02:28 PM

That assessment of mine was correct - you really are that bone thick - but of course you were a union activist weren't you - capable of being fed any line, pointed in the right direction and then sent out to lie your back teeth off, make the bullets and get some other poor sod to fire them.

You have absolutely nothing to say, you are a complete and utter joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 02:42 PM

Thhhh...... Tthhhhh........ Ttthhhhhiiiiiiiii...

No. No use. Too many targets for one observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:21 PM

Dave,
What am I doing here? Pointing out how silly these discussions can get

No. You never find fault with Jim or Rag or the Guest Muskets.
I posted to the Churchill thread and you turned up there today making the same sort of hair splitting criticisms, just of me.

'All histories of the last twenty years any of us has been able to quote confirm my three points.'
That is because,
'All histories any of us has read or is aware of, in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.'
That is because,
'All histories in the last twenty years, confirm my three points.'

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Dec 15 - 03:22 PM

Missed by a mile, teribums. Hope you were not in charge of any guns when you were were playing with boats. Still, it's nice to see you resorting to abuse, poor as it is, like your mate says no one should do. What is it he says? Shows lack of reasoned arguments? I think you need to go and have a lie down again :-)