BS: Jingoism or Commemoration

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:44 AM

"These can be seen in context by using the links I provided, and they are quite unequivocal."
Then explain here references to "fear" and "propaganda"
As I said, if people were persuaded it was a cause then i
it was a horrifically unjust cause - explain that
The Paxman programme spent a great deal of time on the recruiting methods used , the deception, the bullying the emotional blackmail that took place and the fact that this noble cause was so important to the people, after 18 months it collapsed and enforced conscription was introduced - if the cause was so noble - why did that happen - explain that.
You have studiously avoided the immorality of the war, of the near wiping out of almost an entire generation - is that so unimportant to you?- it obviously is - you "Christians" really curl me up.
In two years and over the space of half-a dozen thread you have refused to respond to any of these points and have clung to out-of context quotes by historians you have not read (but claim you have)
What kind of people are you - you certainly lack a shred of humanity?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:19 AM

"the fact that this noble cause was so important to the people, after 18 months it collapsed and enforced conscription was introduced - if the cause was so noble - why did that happen - explain that."

After 18 months it collapsed? Where Jom? In Australia, in Ireland, In Canada, in New Zealand, in South Africa, in Newfoundland, in India? Are you trying to tell me that nobody from those countries volunteered after March 1916? Are you trying to tell me that there were no volunteers from Great Britain after 1916? If so then you would be wrong. Every other combatant nation had started out with conscripted citizen armies, Britain and the British Government were told on day one that they too would have to raise one and that Jom old son was exactly what they did - however they did not have to rely in any way on conscription until the war was nearly half way through.

"You have studiously avoided the immorality of the war, of the near wiping out of almost an entire generation"

The immorality of the war?? What started out as a minor dispute between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia was manipulated and forced by German meddling and intransigence into the largest conflict the world had seen - Now then "Wolfie" I can see the immorality in that, especially as part and parcel of that German meddling was the goal of annexing Belgium and their colonies and robbing France of hers in order to then go on and attack the British. Tell me Jom, all those British workers beavering away and earning their daily crust producing and manufacturing all those widgets back then in 1914 before the war - where were they sold? Rhetorical question chump, they were sold to customers in the British Empire, her Dominions and her colonies. Now had the Germans managed to destroy the British Empire (As they tried to do by their support for the Boers in South Africa) who would all those workers in British factories be making stuff for? Or would they have found themselves out of work? And that "Wolfie" was a consequence that Niall Ferguson failed to grasp when he made his case for Great Britain staying out of what was known as the Great War.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:25 AM

"I have always said that I do not know enough about WW1 to dispute or agree with any of the factual statements given. I have no idea what is accurate and, as always, give people the benefit of the doubt." - DtG.

Absolutely risible, Gnome - In your self-confessed ignorance of the subject under discussion, when on earth have you EVER given Keith A the "benefit of the doubt

Looks like Guest Observer is going to win his bet if indeed he/she placed it - But for the GUEST he was referring to (Most likely Musktwat) the above from the Gnome - Now that really is a HOWLER of the first magnitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:34 AM

when on earth have you EVER given Keith A the "benefit of the doubt"

Always, Teribums. Evidenced in multiple threads and responses where I have said I have no reason to doubt him. I even believe stuff you tell me. Sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:35 AM

...just because you believe someone doesn't stop them being a pratt.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:46 AM

Dave and Rag, I do not even know how much support there was in Germany.
I have never looked into it.
You say there was Dave, but you do not tell us how you know.
And do you know how independent their press was?

I would never suggest that any population is more clever or stupid than any other.

My actual post,
"So IFthe German people supported it, they were duped, deluded or motivated by jingoistic nationalism."

Perhaps it was the latter.
Remarque's book "All Quiet On The Western Front" has the main character and his friends persuaded to enlist by the nationalistic, jingoistic fervour of their schoolmaster.
Remarque was writing of the common experience of Germans, and he would not have included anything unusual or atypical.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:58 AM

"After 18 months it collapsed? "
It did in Britain Cookie - I thought that's what we were talking about.
No idea what happened in those countries - what on earth has it to do with the opic on hand apart from it being another rat-hole to hide in.
IT COLLAPSED IN BRITAIN - OR IS THIS ANOTHER URBAN MYTH?
Banck to th pot and pan's I'm afraid Mr Woodencock.
The war was a defence of colonies - a family dispute over who got to milk the poorer nations, or in Belgium's case, who got to slaughter and hack pieces off them - may not b immoral to you Tebbitites, but pretty sick to the rest of us.
If the war was inevitable it was due to the predatory nature of colonialism - that it why a generation of British youth were sacrifed because they had been sent to slaughter the same genration of German youth who they did not know and had no quarrel with - pretty obscene, doncha think - my mistake, of course you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be putting up such efforts to tell us how noble it all was.
Can I smell burning bacon - sorry for distracting you fromk your work - back to your stove.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:10 AM

You say there was Dave, but you do not tell us how you know.

I don't know, Keith, but certain news articles indicate that the war was enthusiastically accepted in Germany. I believe a young Adolph Hitler was at a rally in Munich celebrating the outbreak of war but I am, as ever, willing to defer to someone who knows for sure. You say you don't know either. Anyone out there who does know what German reaction was?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:31 AM

Dave, you said, "I am sure that the German public did agree the need to invade."

How can you be sure?
I have no idea if they did or not.
IF they did, was it just the nationalistic fervour that they demonstrated again a few years later and which Remarque wrote about?

Were they lied to?
You tell us, because I do not know Dave.

I do know that the British public were not deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict.

Margaret Macmillan said, "Britain certainly thought it had legitimate reasons for going in, and I think it did,"


Pennell, "myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."

The University of East Anglia (Paxman programmes) say the same as does Sheffield, Todman and every other historian who has expressed an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:25 PM

More cut-'n'pastes - no honest responses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 12:42 PM

Found any quote that supports you view Jim?
No.
Found any that contradict mine.
No Jim.

The historians findings are quite unequivocal.
The myths you cling to are discredited, debunked and rubbished.
Sorry Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:24 PM

"I do know that the British public were not deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict"

But you are quite happy to believe the German population were.

Is there no end to this man's ignorance? What ******* planet does he live on?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 01:50 PM

"Found any that contradict mine."
]You have been given examples of what your own "historians" have said, stretcing back to last yers threads and you choose to ignore them - your latest "lets not go there "historian" being typical
She talks about propaganda and peer pressure, the fear, the emotional blackmail - all historians that have gone public do so
She also points out the complex reasons for joining up[, as do many others.
The fact you choose to ignore itt and only take the bits that suit is basically what you do.
You did it with Kineally, who blew up in your face when it turned out that she was saying exactly the opposite, yet you still clung on as you probably will now.
Your obsessive urge to defend every shitty thing Britain has ever done makes you one strange individual.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:29 PM

Ah but Jom what would have happened to all those workers producing widgets for the Empire, houkin coal to power the factories and ships needed to carry those widgets to their markets and bring back raw materials to make even more improved widgets - all of them out of work Wolfie, what on earth could they have turned their hands to? Folk Music? They could have followed your example and wandered round the country cherry-picking unsubstantiated and unverifiable stories to suit their own bigoted views on any subject you like, so that at a later date they could bore the pants of everybody retelling the tale.

Conscription was introduced because it made sense and was simpler. The British people knew very well why they fighting, why Germany had to be defeated and they knew what they were fighting to preserve.

Germany had only been a country for just over 40 years and they most certainly were extremely "nationalistic", all aspects of the country's foreign policy were held in the hands of the Emperor and a militaristic autocracy that lusted after supreme power in Europe and the establishment of an empire overseas. Wellington at the Congress of Vienna predicted that rabid nationalism was extremely dangerous and would tear Europe apart - how right he was.

Now then Jom tell us again why if "your" witnesses" saw soldiers from their own units being summarily executed why those same witnesses chatting away into your tape recorded couldn't refer to any of the victims by name? You see my commonsense, reasoning and logic tells me that IF such a thing ever occurred and a person saw it it and every detail related to it would have been seared on their minds forever. But there again you didn't even check to see if the old boy telling you the story was ever even in the Army did you - some bloody researcher you are - totally useless. By the way Jom, what is it that you have against cooks, that compels you to regard them with such contempt that you use their job title as an insult? Not very egalitarian, liberal, or charitable of you my little "wannabe working class hero".

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:40 PM

Mudcat allows a person to be judged by what they type, not who they are. Please note Mr Lion or whatever your name is.

I like the idea that bullies such as Teribus and Keith A of Hertford have to either address what you put or ignore you. (Even if they address it, they ignore what you put anyway and waffle on with irrelevance and silly point scoring.)

So rather than scream that you don't know who is typing, try reading what they type instead prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:41 PM

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give a tuppence for all of the rest







Sadly some silly buggers actually believe this.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:50 PM

--Your obsessive urge to defend every shitty thing Britain has ever done makes you one strange individual.
Jim Carroll--
,..,
Find myself rather oddly reacting, Jim, to your apparent obsessive hatred of your own country. To hear you tell it, you appear to think that "shitty things" are all Britain has ever done. I appreciate that much of what you write is responding to other people's points, the exigencies of argument making you emphasise certain aspects to the detriment of the whole picture. But with all due respect, I find it peculiarly off-putting. Reminds me of Koko's Little List in The Mikado, which included

The idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone,
All centuries but this, and every country but his own

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 03:02 PM

"Find myself rather oddly reacting, Jim, to your apparent obsessive hatred of your own country"
No I don't Mike - I hate what the politicians, bankers and big businessmen have done to my country.
The same goes for Ireland, where I now live.
The people I have spent my life with fill me with admiration and total respect - but the politicians - of all breeds - something else.
"what on earth could they have turned their hands to? Folk Music?"
Could have joined the army - saw that on a beer-mat in the Scottish Borders once - can't get a job - join the army.
Not sure what you're saying Popeye, me old shipmate - that the Empitre wasn't predatory - that they were an ungrateful lot for wanting out and biting the hand that fed them?
Gi'e us a break!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:35 PM

Sadly some silly buggers actually believe this.

Not just the UK, if that's any consolation. Plenty of butt-heads in the U.S. believe in nonsensical "American Exceptionalism".

Find myself rather oddly reacting, Jim, to your apparent obsessive hatred of your own country.

Well, EmGee, puts me in mind of the idiotic "America: Love It Or Leave It" jingoism. And you commonly react oddly- its one of your trademarks.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:22 PM

Ay don't do anything 'commonly', if you don't maind, may dear Gee·Eff.

& if it's one of may ©'trademarks'©, then Ay'd better not ketch you traying to imitate it, hed Ay!

Wouldn't be may ☕ at all!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:35 PM

Mr Lion or whatever your name is
...

My name is Michael Grosvenor Myer, as anyone who knows anything about the Folk Scene, or about Mudcat, knows.


try reading what they type instead prat...

Now, now; temper, temper! Just behave yourself on this decent forum, on which you are officiously intruding your unwanted and ill-informed presence, you vulgar little nonentity. If you are a Guest, then oblige us by conducting yourself with appropriate civility to your hosts, please; and refrain from telling them what, in your inaccurate opinion, may be permitted on their own forum.

Avaunt and quit my sight -- Macbeth

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 07:10 PM

Missing the point aren't you Jom. Had Great Britain stood apart and ignored it's treaty obligations and decided than it was unimportant to look after the national interest then millions would have been out of work within 15 years.

Empire purely a force for evil?? A pretty naive view on things if applied to the British Empire which when all said and done was established on trade not conquest. Was it all sweetness and light? A bed of roses? Did those who ruled get it perfectly right all the time? Of course they bloody well didn't and nobody is attempting even remotely of suggesting that. Suggest you read Naill Ferguson's Book "Empire" he puts it far better than I could. Now without Great Britain and her Empire Jom:

- The Slave trade would have continued and expanded without a stutter, it was the British and the Royal Navy that broke it.

- Piracy would have hampered and limited trade and acted as a brake on development throughout the world, it was the British and the Royal Navy that ended the scourge of piracy allowing merchant ships of all nations to trade and sail unhindered.

- Development throughout the world was rapid due to the British industrial revolution which provided wealth and employment

- British inventions and engineering made the world smaller and more accessible.

- Advances in medicine took on and greatly reduced, and in some cases eradicated, some of the worlds greatest killers

- Spread of Parliamentary democracy, rule of law and order, came as part and parcel of the British Empire

The list Carroll goes on and on. Ferguson also states that by the 1880s the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money and it would have disappeared anyway.

On two occasions Great Britain, her Commonwealth and her Empire came to the world's rescue and stood against would be tyrants, it cost her dear, but the costs of not acting were far higher. You ignore all that if you wish to, I won't and every time you trot out your idiotic, biased and bigoted beliefs I will pull you up on them. Those aired in this thread and in previous threads on WWI have been shown to consist of nothing but fairytales, whereas everything that has been stated by either myself, or Keith can be backed up by verifiable substantive evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Recidivist
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:08 PM

Mr. M.G.M., I appreciated your story.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Recidivist
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 12:29 AM

MGM Lion thinking just now I'd like to share one with you.

My Dad (orphaned at three (1920) was taken-in by a extended family of German Jews who his maternal aunt had married into. Long story short...in his 90's he candidly admitted being glad he wasn't raised by his own family (and honestly so am I (bunch of rough-necks).

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 01:07 AM

Much gratified by your appreciation, Recidivist; and very interested in your father's experiences. Thank you.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:04 AM

Dear Michael Grover Myer

I've been going to folk clubs and festivals for nearly forty years but haven't heard of you, if it helps.

My point being that who you are is irrelevant. It's what you type that allows me to start my day with a chuckle.

If Keith A of Hertford and Teribus posted anonymously, it wouldn't be difficult to notice patterns but more importantly each post by them would invoke the same opinion from me and I suspect, most people.

Yet their egos think it is something to do with them not the shit they spread on the Mudcat field. Your pompous post seems to self elevate you up to their depths.

Yours sincerely,

Person who enjoys debate

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:49 AM

Did I miss anything?

No. Still as daft as ever, this type of thread.

Hi Terribulus. Keep reading your newspapers. Clapton forbid you might learn something. Keith, Keith, Keith. Tell you what. If we give you double points for 24 hours, will that do? We can't have you not scoring points. zzz

Micha...

Nurse! He's out of bed again!






Eyup co Messiahs. What have I told you about playing with the Philistines?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:54 AM

"Had Great Britain stood apart and ignored it's treaty obligations and decided than it was unimportant to look after the national interest then millions would have been out of work within 15 years."
The war wasn't sold on treaty obligations - one of the great catchalls that persuaded young men to sacrifice their lives for 'Poor little Belgium' complete with pictures of nuns being ravaged and bayoneted - a pretended humanity that was sadly missing when Conglese rubber workers were being massacred in their millions and having their hands chopped off.
It was a colonial war for territory and it never pretended to be anything else (until now) - still remember the three volume set of 'The Great Imperial War' on our school bookshelf as late as the early 1950s.
"A pretty naive view on things if applied to the British Empire"
Natives being incapable of ruling themselves without the British Empire - Jay-sus - that takes me back to my schooldays!!
A gentle reminder that Britain was the main instigator of slavery and the powers that be fought ***** hard to keep it in its place until it was replaced by a different kind of slavery of the type that slaughtered a million Irish people (just 60 years before W.W.1). as "God's punishment for indolence".
Colonialism was an appalling system of oppression and exploitation and is now recognised as such in the civilised world (even reactionary Ronnie Reagan used the term as one of abuse when he referred to The Soviet Union as 'The Evil Empire')
But it's great to be back in the mid-1950s for a short visit as a reminder of those arrogant and patronising good old days.
You pair really are stereotype anachronisms
Made my day, you really have!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:37 AM

Rag, But you are quite happy to believe the German population were.

I have said no such thing.

Jim, You have been given examples of what your own "historians" have said, stretcing back to last yers threads and you choose to ignore them

If that is true give an example. You can not deny the unequivocal quotes I have provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:48 AM

Ah yes Teriblunder, the wonderful twenties and thirties for the average working Brit. Lack of investment in new techniques, depleted coal reserves, depression, decline, poverty, unemployment over 2,000,000 by the mid 20's, the great strike of 26 and the fantastic Wall Street crash of 29 leading into the depression of the 1930's.
Unemployment up to 2,500,000, crumbling industry due to lack of investment, the Jarrow Marches, more depression, the Means Test.

My God it makes you proud to be British.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:49 AM

Final programme of the Paxman series, made in collaboration with the University of East Anglia History Faculty,

29 minutes in. Paxman to camera,
"Britain now had a tactically smarter, better organised army, capable of deploying men and machines to devastating effect"

He and the team clearly saying that the army was well led.

57 minutes in. Paxman to camera, "
Later generations would contend it had been a futile war. The war was terrible certainly, but hardly futile.
It stopped the German conquest of much of Europe, and perhaps even of villages like this.

Never before in the nation's History had a war required the commitment and the sacrifice of the whole population, and by and large, for 4 years, the British people kept faith with it."

He and the team clearly saying
1: That Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught;
2: That the British people overwhelmingly understood and accepted that;

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:06 AM

Guest of 24 Nov 0304 am ==

"Not to know me argues yourself unknown" (Paradise Lost) IV 830

Obviously during those 40 years you were not a reader of Folk Review whose regular tailpiece I wrote for 4 years as well as some hundred + reviews & features; nor of The Guardian, whose regional theatre critic and folk record reviewer I was for ¼C, late 60s-90s; nor of The Times Ed or The Times for which I reviewed folk records, festivals, concerts &c for about 20 years. You don't seem to have gone very deeply into the subject.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:08 AM

Glad to afford you a chuckle, nonetheless...

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:12 AM

"In June 2014 Paxman, speaking at the Chalke Valley History Festival about his new book, Britain's Great War, confirmed "what many had suspected about his political leanings", admitting he was a "one-nation Tory"


History credentials ................. none I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:30 AM

Gosh can I have your autograph?

I've heard of Colin Irwin if that helps.

Of course, them as can do and those who can't teach. Reviewers and critics are often shocked to find how much they are dismissed as irrelevant so no wonder nobody had heard of you.

So,.. Now we know your knowledge of WW1 to be as second hand and subjective as anyone's, care to make a contribution to the debate in hand rather than tell us all how important you are?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 05:54 AM

"That Britain had no choice but to resist the German onslaught;"
Not the perogative of either Historians or TV presenters
"If that is true give an example."
You've been given examples over and over again - why the hell should I dig out more for you to ignore
You really aren't important enough with your quaint jingoism to put in any more time - you fake the attitudes of historians you haven't read and you ignore everything they have to say.
By the way - Paxman dealt with some of the military disasters of the war caused by shoddy leadership - the "wrong shell" fiasco by Kitchjener being a prime example.
Another case of your taking somebody out of context to back up your jingoism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 06:18 AM

Anotehr incident deal#t with by Paxman was the Battle of Loos - again a fiasco caused largely by underestimating the opposition - neatly summed up here -
"The failure at Loos led to the removal of General French from his position as commander-in-chief of the British Army and he was replaced by General Haig on 19 December 1915. Despite the severe setbacks, volunteers continued to swell the ranks of Kitchener's New Army which was fortunate because by March 1916 the British sector of the front extended from Ypres to the Somme, the French having abandoned Artois to fight in the infernal cauldron of Verdun.
Astonishingly, the grave errors committed by the British High Command at the Battle of Loos were not learnt from and were to be repeated on the first day of the Battle of the Somme which ended on 1 July 1916 in the greatest disaster in the history of the British Army."
Dare we mention Gallipoli?
Would you likje to tot up the number of dead that resulted because of these cock-ups
Good leadership my arse.
It was the job of the leaders to send the soldiers they had at their disposal (excellent word to describe their job) over the top in enough numbers to make headway - how long did it take to take Passchendaele, how many lives were expended and what was gained at the end of it?
That is good butchery, not good leadership.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 07:55 AM

Jim, it was you who decided that Paxman was relevant to this thread.
Rag, he was just the presenter.
The history content came from the University of East Anglia.

Not the perogative of either Historians

Er, it is history Jim. Who else's prerogative? (You think it is yours obviously!)

You've been given examples over and over again - why the hell should I dig out more for you to ignore

You have not. Quotes from the historians all support my views (that is where I got them!) and rubbish yours.

And Jim, in a four year war of a kind never known before, mistakes inevitably were made.
You will find no historian who finds the British leadership incompetent or less effective than that of any other of the armies involved.
You have your opinion, and the people who have studied all the evidence say it is shit.
Sorry Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:20 AM

Somme 30th June 1916
Aide: What do we do tomorrow General?
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 1 July
Aide: General we got 57,470 casualties 19,240 killed what do we do tomorrow General
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 2 July
Aide: Load more casualties General, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 3 July
Aide: Load more casualties General, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 4 July
Aide: Load more casualties Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 5 July
Aide: Load more casualties Sir, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 6 July
Aide: Loads of dead and maimed Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 7 July
Aide: We've lost a shed of men Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 8 July
Aide: Loads more wounded and killed, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 9 July
Aide: Same as yesterday Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 10 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 11 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the

Somme 12 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 13 July
Aide: Loads more dead and maimed Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 14 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 15 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 16 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 17 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 18 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 19 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 20 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 21 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 22 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 23 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 24 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 25 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 26 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 27 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Some 28 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 29 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 30 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top

Somme 31 July
Aide: Guess what Boss, what do we do tomorrow
Haig: Send the men over the top


And so on all through August, September, October and into November.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:23 AM

I doubt any of the people you refer to have read Jim's assessment so how can you say they reckon it is shit?

Evidence, references, citations... Come on, we are waiting.

Actually, there were quite a few mistakes. Enough to fill a book. What shall we call the book? I know what, let's call it Donkeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:32 AM

"Astonishingly, the grave errors committed by the British High Command at the Battle of Loos were not learnt from and were to be repeated on the first day of the Battle of the Somme which ended on 1 July 1916 in the greatest disaster in the history of the British Army."

Hmmm grave errors committed by the British High Command? Or grave errors imposed upon the British High Command at the insistence of the French Generals who when all said and done were at all times formed the Supreme Allied Commanders in France.

At Loos in August 1915 Haig told Sir John French that the area assigned for his First Army's attack by Joffre was far from suitable (As described by the French General), Haig also advised Sir John French that for the plan to have any chance at all for success the Reserves had to available instantly so therefore had to be held close to the front. Sir John French ignored Haig's advice - As you will no doubt refuse to take my word for it then read the words of a man who was there:

"A great deal of nonsense has been written about Loos. The real tragedy of that battle was its nearness to complete success. Most of us who reached the crest of Hill 70, and survived, were firmly convinced that we had broken through on that Sunday, 25th September 1915. There seemed to be nothing ahead of us, but an unoccupied and incomplete trench system. The only two things that prevented our advancing into the suburbs of Lens were, firstly, the exhaustion of the "Jocks" themselves (for they had undergone a bellyfull of marching and fighting that day) and, secondly, the flanking fire of numerous German machine-guns, which swept that bare hill from some factory buildings in Cite St. Auguste to the south of us. All that we needed was more artillery ammunition to blast those clearly-located machine-guns, plus some fresh infantry to take over from the weary and depleted "Jocks." But, alas, neither ammunition nor reinforcements were immediately available, and the great opportunity passed.
— Richard Hilton, who was present at the battle acting as a Forward Artillery Observation Officer.

In March 1915 the British First Army under Haig attacked at Neuve-Chapelle, All objectives were taken but Sir John French kept the reserves too far to the rear so that they could not deployed when they were needed to exploit the break through - The Germans mounted numerous counter attacks and lost heavily - Jom listen to this next bit, something that none of your 1929 to 1969 historians and playwrights ever heard about because it wasn't known till much later once German records were researched and translated - Neuve-Chapelle so frightened the Germans that it became policy after this battle that for the German Army when facing British Troops the lines of defence had to be doubled in strength and prepared in depth. That was the factor that met Haig's First Army at Loos and once again they very nearly succeeded. Two fuck-ups to Sir John French so he was sacked and replaced by Haig (Under the Buggins's turn system prevalent in the pre-war British Army the job should have gone to Robertson, but he had no experience of combat in France against the Germans, Haig had by now given the Germas a fright on two occasions so at Robertson's insistence Haig took command of the Army in France and he accepted the job of Chief of the Imperial General Staff)

The Somme in 1916 again was a fight picked for the British Army in France by British Politicians at home [David Lloyd George] and French Supreme Commanders with the primary objective of relieving pressure on the French defending Verdun. As at Loos Haig argued that to attack on the Somme was to attack at the wrong place place - Haig wanted to attack in Flanders in 1916, but again as at Loos Haig was over-ruled. The attack had to be made in conjunction with the French and that meant the Somme. However things were going so badly for the French at Verdun that roughly half the French troops who were supposed to have been attacking with the British on the Somme on the right flank of the British were withdrawn and sent to Verdun instead, as the "junior partner" Haig had no say or leverage in the overall scheme of things. The German Commander in the west in 1916 Falkenhayn started the year off promising to bleed the allies white using simple attrition - by the end of 1916 it was the Germans who had been bled white and Falkenhayn was dismissed - the Germans after 1916 knew that they could not defeat either the French or the British on the western front until after they had defeated the Russians in the east. The 1st of July 1916 might have been a bloody day and a disaster for the British Army, but 1916 ended up as being a bloody year for the German Army and a year that they never recovered from, we on the other hand did. It also caused the Germans to build and withdraw to the Hindenburg Line

And as you mentioned Passchendale Jom here we have another instance of David Lloyd George's meddling. Lloyd George completely mesmerized by the promises of the planned Nivelle offensive ordered Haig to attack at Passchendale in order that the ports on the Belgian coast being used by German U-boats could be captured, Haig argued that the ground on the Somme would be better for the tanks he know had at his disposal - Once again the advice and opinion of the man tasked with doing the job was ignored by those sitting hundreds of miles away from the action.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:36 AM

Brilliant, blame the French it was all their fault !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:47 AM

GUEST - 24 Nov 15 - 08:20 AM

And AFTER November 1916 GHOST?

- German Army had lost the best they had and just simply could not replace them

- That German Army considered by many throughout the world as being the best in the world had been beaten by Britain's first ever citizen army, who now knew with 100% certainty that they would win.

- That German Army come September of 1916 began constructing the Hindenburg Line to their rear and in November 1916 retreated to their new DEFENSIVE position

- The German Commander Falkenhayn was sacked and replaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 08:52 AM

Well then GUEST - 24 Nov 15 - 08:36 AM if you are the same prat who posted at 08:02 AM if it was all Haig's fault because he was in Command then it must surely follow that the person who's actual fault it was has to have been the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces and at all times from August 1914 until November 1918 he was a Frenchman - Or didn't you know that? You'll be telling us about REDTOPS next.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:24 AM

He was a General for ***** sake not the teaboy.

You create a fuss, a big one involving governments . You say these bastards are killing all my troops.

You do not stand by and let it happen day after day, week after week, month after months.

OR you resign.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:47 AM

And how many armies have you commanded Raggy? How many battles fought with you in command where others have picked the time, the place and the enemy?

I would venture to guess that the answer to both of the above would be NONE - Yet for someone who says they know very little about the War and the period you trot out that rubbish ( Raggytash - 24 Nov 15 - 09:24 AM)

In the vast expanse of your relevant experience Raggy can you tell me how many Generals have resigned in time of war whilst on active service? IIRC "resignation" is not an option open to them, they can protest and complain all they like, they can act and seek dismissal but if done they face the music for it when they reach home.

Oh and for your information on the Somme the horrendous British losses were restricted to one area of quite an extensive front. Joffre insisted on feeding more men into that particular area but Haig refused, instead he reinforced commanders who were making ground and at the end of the battle:

"British and French forces had penetrated 6 miles (9.7 km) into German-occupied territory, taking more ground than any offensive since the Battle of the Marne in 1914."

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 09:52 AM

You seem to forget you are not replying to me. Haven't you anyone to tug your forelock to today.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 10:01 AM

And how many armies have you commanded Raggy?

Et tu, T-Bird?

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 10:37 AM

Rag, you and Jim cling to your myth of incompetent generals.
Only sad old class warriors still believe that, and because they are just sad old class warriors.

You will find no single historian who believes that.
Again you are arguing against the historians about history.

Subject: RE: BS: Jingoism or Commemoration
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 12:13 PM

And only idiots like you believe everything that you read.

Some of us read, digest, consider, read other authors, digest, consider and then come to a reasoned conclusion based on ALL the evidence we have digested, not just the evidence that suits our preconceptions.

You have shown time and time again you are incapable of such reasoned analysis.

Oh, by the way, don't bother to tell me the 3 points again I've heard them all before.