BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:04 AM

Brits have a vote coming up later this month (Happy June).

Is this a U.K. vote? Scots and all?

Are Yanks allowed to weigh in.

I think those on the East side of the pond should think seriously about staying economically related to the Continent. You've been allowed to keep the Pound note and Special Relationship and all, you might not want to be associated with US should we select "The Donald" as our chief executive.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:26 AM

I'm glad you brought it up.

When Trump was asked this question it had to be explained to him at length.

Finally he answered "yep they should leave."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

"You've been allowed to keep the pound note..."

Wrong.

1. The pound-note went out of circulation in 1988 (28 years ago!).
2. We weren't "allowed" to stay out of the Euro, it's each nation's right to choose whether to adopt the Euro or retain their own currency.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM

economically related to the Continent.

Europe is failing economically.
The rest of the world is doing better.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM

"Europe is failing economically."
Thanks to Mad Maggie - Britain has nothing to base her economy on - no industries, no natural resources and an employment situation that spirals ever upward.
Ideally, a half-decent, truely democratic political situation might help, but we're further from that than we ever where.
'Bout time Britain swallowed its Xenophobia bullet and made pro[er use of Europe; it really isn't in the position to go it alone.
Just try to imagine a country run by the nice Mr Farrago and another across the Pond run by Despicable Donald, - that should do it.
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM

I get really sick of people telling me what to do, what to think and how to act. I am sick of politics there isn't an honest one among them. I wont tell you how to brush your teeth don't tell me how to wash my face and we will get along ok.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:31 PM

I'm voting one way and my husband is voting the other. My sister laughed and said, "You may as well both stay at home. Your votes will cancel eachother out!"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

I am casting my daughter's vote by proxy. If we vote opposite ways - which I doubt - I will be putting two votes in the same box that cancel each other...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 01:58 PM

We weren't "allowed" to stay out of the Euro, it's each nation's right to choose whether to adopt the Euro or retain their own currency.

Not true, might have been the case once, but not now. Any country joining now must adopt the Euro as it's currency. That came in with the Lisbon Treaty that wasn't a Treaty because a number of countries raised objections and threatened to use their vetoes, so they called it something else under some sort of backdoor EU scheme and got it through (Gordon Brown could explain it to everybody) - that's the EU for you - about as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable as can be.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:10 PM

Thanks to Mad Maggie - Britain has nothing to base her economy on - no industries, no natural resources and an employment situation that spirals ever upward.

Did you mean unemployment? If so, you were right first time.
Employment is increasing here.
Our economy and employment are much better than the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 02:48 PM

The first time the Isles left the rest of Europe, was when the Romans departed. For about 1000 years they painted themselves with woad and ran about fighting.
When the Normans came in, the first thing they did was attempt to suppress the local feuds and create a country. During the successive reigns of Gloriana and James, it actually happened. If the effects of the continent were not real there would have been no Protestant Reformation, English Rennaissance, etc.
Ultimately, you are probably better off staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 03:37 PM

Most of us can't really grasp all the details of the argument and we vote best we can. One thing that decides me though is the huge amount of money contributed by the uk , much of it used to overpay grossly eu officials.                And there's no reason US posters should,nt chip in, judging by how many Brits comment on US politics !

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Interesting article recently you David Mitchell, partially inspired by a statement from Richard Dawkins (yes, him!) saying few if any of us are in a position to *know* one way or the other, because the argument is almost entirely about economic forecasts which are unreliable at the best of times, and completely incapable of addressing what the situation will be in, say, 50 years time any way, when the decision will still be in place.. I hear constant wails that we the voters want "the facts"; sorry, but there aren't any, at least in economic terms.   The immigration question isn't much clearer, to be honest. So we are about to determine the future of the country on a national survey of 'gut feelings', which Mitchell and DWkins felt , as I interpret it, to be a total abdication of the responsibility of the Politician class. And I tend to agree.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 04:42 PM

David Mitchell's article

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM

As I have said before, the whole issue hinges on the horrific and ever increasing rates of immigration from the poorer Eastern European countries.
"Free Movement of Labour", was accepted without recourse to the UK electorate ......"to make us more competitive in the global economy", said Mr Blair. That phrase means exploiting cheap labour to benefit the Exchequer. It is impossible to control, just as the EU is impossible to reform.
The problem with that policy is that it negatively affects the poorest people indigenous to UK.... young and unskilled.
They are priced out of the market by the huge influx of immigrants, who can in the main live much more cheaply, as they are here for a relatively short time and do not have the expense of buying or renting a house, or starting a family. Round this area groups of young male immigrants live communally and send much of their wages back to Eastern Europe.

The policy is not only bad for our untrained young people but for the countries the immigrants hail from, as they are starved of workers to construct their own infrastructure and maintain their own public services. The policy has been ill thought out and has contributed to the debacle we see all over Europe, if we don't leave now, we could tie ourselves to a sinking ship.

The opposition to getting out of the EU, among the so called liberal left is purely ideological.......a mad belief in "equality" under all circumstances, regardless of the long term consequences.....Remind you of anything previously discussed ??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM

Relinquish sovereignty? Why would anyone do such a thing? Give up the right to hold politicians accountable for their actions? Why would anyone do such a thing? Kowtow to corporations and their political puppets? Why would anyone do such a thing?

My questions are brief but they are to the point.

I don't have a dog in your fight so my opinion doesn't matter in your fight. But, here in Canada, we endure NAFTA and it's a big and vicious dog. Now we face CETA and the TPP. They are even bigger dogs.

Don't let the bastards scare you with gloom and doom bullshit. Get out while the getting is good. Be free of domination from outside your borders. You are Britain. Act like it. Lead the Commonwealth out of these chains.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:43 PM

I think E Barnacle is being a bit unfair about the Isles in between the Roman and Norman invasions. The idea that this was just a bunch of disparate peoples continually fighting whilst continental Europe was peaceful surely doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Likewise it ignores the fact that there was art, literature, organised religion and emerging countries way before the Normans arrived. This was the period of St Augustine, the Celtic Church, the Lindisfarne Gospels and Book of Kells, the writings of the Venerable Bede, and of course in particular the emergence of both the Scottish and English kingdoms which were relatively early established European states. European influence in the form of the Danish and Norse invasions were hardly stabilising and the arrival of the Normans hardly brought a civilising force compared with what had been before. The harrowing of the north in particular was savage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 06:48 PM

Backwoodsman it was only £1 notes issued by the Bank of England that went out of circulation in the 1980s. Not all British £1 notes. I'm not sure when they went out of circulation but Bank of Scotland and Clydesdale £1 notes lasted much later than that - and RBS £1 notes (though you don't come across them often) are actually still in circulation.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 16 - 08:26 PM

The people you mostly hear arguing for staying in would convince you to vote out, until you hear the ones arguing for getting out, who would drive you to vote to stay in.

Still, being in the EU guarantees a fair number of workers rights that would be under threat if we get out; and it also guarantees against some future government bringing back capital punishment. And leaving would reinforce Irish Partition by making the border one with the EU as well as with the rest of Ireland. And it looks as if the TTPI may have had its teeth drawn, which would remove one reason for voting to leave.

One personal upside of a vote to leave I suppose would be the likelihood that it might lead to Scotland breaking away, and Great Britain reverting to being an island rather than a nation. But I don't think that's what too many Brexit voters realise is a likely consequence if they win.

So I'll vote to stay, but without much enthusiasm. The EU needs a lot of changes in the direction of greater democratic control - but since they are far far removed from the ones that Cameron was trying to get and failed, we might be able to get them by joining with the people in other countries who would like the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:19 AM

Those are great questions, gnu, which people should be thinking deeply about but may not be. But the answers may not be what you expect. Take sovereignty for example. It is relinquishing some rights to self government in exchange for others. It is quite possible to argue we are in large part rules by big businesses rather than parliament. Fighting that requires coordinating effort across Europe and cannot done by the Uk on its own. In that respect, being in the EU increase sovereignty and leaving decreases it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:29 AM

"when the Romans departed. For about 1000 years they painted themselves with woad and ran about fighting."
.,,.

I agree with Mr Conn's demolition of this fatuous comment from one 'Barnacle'. Can just see Alfred the Great or Canute running about covered with woad, can't you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:34 AM

... and what's with this 1000 years? Up to the 1470s eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

Allan Conn - whilst there may still be Scottish £1 notes in circulation, they are not Legal Tender, although they are generally accepted by traders. In fact, Scotland has no Legal Tender, that being restricted to notes and coins issued by The BoE. (Rampant Scotland.com).

Teribus - there's no 'may have been the case' about it, it was the case when the Euro was initially adopted by 11 member-states on 1/1/99. So my point remains true - the UK wasn't 'allowed' by anyone to retain Sterling as its currency, it was its right to choose whether to keep Sterling or adopt the Euro. Fortunately, it chose Sterling.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:24 AM

I have stopped listening to any of the debates as the whole thing has degenerated into farce - a travesty as it's such an important decision.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 04:26 AM

Are Yanks allowed to weigh in. why not? Obama did.
As long as we can be candid on our opinions about Trump ‽

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM

Remember - only Wetherspoons have the Brexit facts. Whilst hitherto partial to their full-English (especially in the hoary timbered gloom of the Royal Hop Pole in Tewkesbury of a merry May morn) I confess to having lost my appetite of late...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM

Backwoodsman but they (ie the Scottish notes) are legal currency and anyway Bank of England notes are not themselves legal tender throughout the UK. They are only legal tender in England and Wales!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:07 AM

Ooops sorry and I think the Royal Mint's website takes precedence over the Rampant Scotland site!

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

What's the spring-breathing jess'mine and rose,
   What's the summer, with all its gay train,
Or the plenty of autumn, to those
   Who've barter'd their freedom for gain?

Well, we bartered our freedom, but did we get the gain?

Personally, I'm not too bothered whether we'll be tuppence a week better off or tuppence a week worse off, I just want to get out from under the EU jackboot. But then, I voted 'out' in 1975, and was roundly vilified for it at the time.

Now, to (mis)quote Pete Townshend, I hope WE WON'T BE FOOLED AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:20 AM

And neither MGM Lion or myself even touch on Barnacle's the Gloriana/James creating a country thing! What country would that be that Elizabeth I created? Surely not England! And she didn't create GB either. Her dying meant that a Scottish king succeeded to her throne so hardly her creating any country. And neither did James actually create a new country/state. He wanted to but it didn't happen as neither existing country wanted anything to do with it. One country was created decades later through the Cromwellian conquest but it didn't last more than a few years. GB wasn't actually created as one state until 1707 more than a century after Elizabeth died.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 07:48 AM

Mr. Conn, I bow to your superior Googling-skills, and I withdraw. 😄😎

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM

Actually I did know the info. Just posted the second post and gave the link from an official source as proof. Saves getting into the Yes it is - no it isn't kind of discussion!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM

Aaaaahh-yup to that, Allan! Leave that to the regulars! 😎

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 03:56 AM

GB wasn't actually created as one state until 1707 more than a century after Elizabeth died.
Union was the result of greed and lack of due diligence. Scotland was bankrupt and England was happy to step in, just like they did when RBS and Halifax/BoS got greedy and less than diligent.
History repeats itself, it has to, nobody is listening.
There will be other Greeces, I confidently predict.

That is the strength of a Union, and why they have regulations.
Love it or hate it you gotta be careful of who you elect either way.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 06:19 AM

As the fifth wealthiest economy in the world, how can Britain manage without the EU?. We should get out and spend the £50.000,000 a day we pay to the EU on our failing NHS, British steel, our own farms(of which many are being paid NOT to produce cattle or arable products) We can have our troops back to protect us if necessary... and employ more if needed. We can control our own borders re immigration. We will no longer be governed by the powers that be in Brussels.. (name one of them if you can). It might be a little tough at the start but we will prosper eventually as Norway have done... they stayed out and still have the trade... their workers are some of the best paid in the world. The EU needs Britains' money but do we really need their failing economy... I think not. Why should we be governed by an almost secret EU society in Brussels~? I'd like to see us get back to what we know and understand. We had free trade with the world before joining the EU. Why can we not have the same~? We are still mostly allies, not enemies..... why should that suddenly stop. By the way.. this is one Brits view of it all... although many on Facebook agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 09:14 AM

The latest edition of question time may be a help to you Americans who are struggling to understand what all the fuss is about

Mr Frank Field gives reasoned replies to the questioners.


BBC Question Time.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jun 16 - 07:44 PM

Mr Red the idea that Scotland was bankrupt so England stepped in to help is a very simplistic and Anglocentric view on history which doesn't stand up to any kind of serious scrutiny.

Scotland was in a bad way in the 1690s for various reasons and after Darien the Scottish Parliament came to the conclusion that the regal union simply wasn't working for Scotland as the monarch always favoured the interests of the larger kingdom over the smaller one. Some of the Scottish parliamentarians saw a fuller union as a solution as the situation as it was saw Scotland suffer through loss of normal trading partners because of association with England's wars - without having the benefits of full access to the emerging empire. However the solution the Scottish parliament chose was to distance itself more from England rather than a fuller union.

Various Acts were passed. In 1703 parliament passed the Act Anent Peace And War as well as the Wine Act. The first laid down the rule that the shared monarch could no longer take Scottish troops to war for the benefit of England without the consent of the Scottish parliament. The second declared that Scots retained the right to trade with countries if England was at war with said countries. Basically they were talking about France!

Then in 1704 parliament passed the Act of Security which declared that on the death of Queen Anne the Scots could choose a different monarch from England. Basically they were inviting the Old Pretender to be monarch with the proviso that there was a conversion to Protestantism.

That was when the English parliament started on their plans to secure a full union. The English passed the Alien Act. Basically Scotland was offered full union terms which included compensation payments to certain aristos for their losses at Darien. However if the Scots declined to accept this offer of union then Scotland could be barred from trading with England or anywhere within the empire plus it would be against the law for Scots to inherit property in England. As the royal court was in London many of the Scottish aristocracy also had residences in London hence their property was being threatened.

So rather than jumping in to help Scotland the truth is nearer that the parliament in England did not want a return to there being a second completely separate kingdom on the island so the Scottish parliament was economically pressured into accepting union with the implied threat of military intervention being there too.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 02:16 AM

Allan, where is there any evidence for this "implied threat of military intervention"? I believe that during the period we are talking about here (1690 to 1707) you might have made some sort of passing reference to a group known as Jacobites who did not seem aversed to enlisting the help of France in securing what they wanted. Also no mention of the War of the Spanish Succession in which both Scotland and England were at war with France.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:02 AM

Rather than not addressing the Jacobites my post specifically states that the Scottish Parliament was laying the path for the Old Pretender to take the Scottish Crown on the death of Queen Anne. I took it for granted that readers would know this was the Jacobite period. That would have left England with a different totally separate kingdom on its northern border. A kingdom who's monarch felt himself the rightful king of England too and a kingdom which would be at least potential allies of France should relations with England worsen. That was my whole point! The idea that Scotland was needy so England stepped in to offer union because they wanted to help is just nonsense! England turned to wanting full union in the first decade of the 18thC because it wanted to secure control of the whole island and it wanted to protect the Hanovarian Succession which had been secured by an Act in the English Parliament without taking any note of the Scottish Parliament's wishes. My whole post was simply countering Red's simplistic take on history "Scotland was bankrupt so England was happy to step in". Anyone doubting that the Acts I mentioned aren't real just needs to check on the UK Parliament's own website which does not even try to hide the fact that Scotland was pressurised - in fact it openly says it. Link at the bottom.....

As to the implied threat of force. That come from the fact that there was an English military force waiting on the English side of the Border whilst the Scottish Parliament was debating the union proposals. I'm not a historian but I am a keen reader of Scottish history so the knowledge of that fact just comes from reading numerous books on the said subject. I'll give one example from "Scotland's Relations With England - A Survey To 1707" by William Ferguson

"By December the English force lying on the Border had been reinforced by a further 800 cavalry and was ready to move north at Queensbury's call"

Not much use going into what ifs as they can't be proved one way or another but the force was there for two possible reasons. Certainly it was there should the Scottish parliament accept union then need military assistance should there be a popular uprising as the idea of union was deeply unpopular amongst the Scottish population at large - however it was also seen as further pressure on the anti-union side in Parliament not knowing whether the force would cross the border or not should they vote the wrong the way!

My whole post was not trying to make political points in any way as how and why union came about in 1707 is not really relevant to us now 300+ years later. I'm interested in history.

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/act-of-union-1707/overview/westminster-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:10 AM

http://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/act-of-union-1707/overview/westminster-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:19 AM

Sorry for some reason the blue clicky not going to the right page. You can navigate there by clicking on......

return to Home Page - click on About Parliament - click on Living Heritage - under the Changes In Legislative Authority list click on Act of Union 1707 - then in the list click on Westminster Passes The Alien Act 1705 and it brings up the page I was trying to post. Cut and past below...................

Westminster passes the Alien Act 1705

At Westminster on 29 November 1704, Lord Godolphin, the Lord High Treasurer, explained to the House of Lords why Queen Anne had approved the Scottish Act of Security - which preserved the Kirk, trade and the gains of the 1688 Revolution in Scotland.

He said the Act contained some undesirable elements, but it was essential that any Scottish threat to England's safety should be neutralised.

Economic pressure

The Tories wanted to censure Godolphin for allowing the Act to pass, but the Whigs said that would antagonise the Scots even more by implying that their legislature was inferior to the English. It was far better, they said, to bring union upon the Scots through economic pressure.

Over the next few days Godolphin was deep in negotiations with the dominant group of Whigs - known as the Junto Whigs - in the English House of Lords, the first step towards the conclusive negotiations of 1706.

Two new Bills

When the Lords resumed their deliberations on Scotland on 6 December, two bills were proposed by Lord Somers, one of the Junto leaders, with Godolphin's support.

One offered fresh negotiations for a full incorporating union, with a single parliament and unified free trade area.

The other, an aliens bill, threatened that unless Scotland agreed to negotiate terms for union and accepted the Hanoverian succession by 25 December 1705, there would be a ban on the import of all Scottish staple products into England.

Scots would also lose the privileges of Englishmen under English law - thus endangering rights to any property they held in England.

Both bills became law early in 1705.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 05:40 AM

Mr Red the idea that Scotland was bankrupt so England stepped in to help is a very simplistic and Anglocentric view

Hmmm. The nature of communication these days. You can blame the internet, but it has been going on for years. viz. soundbites. But the facts remain:
Scotland was bankrupt. Just like Scottish Banks were. The options open in either case were numerous and all had drawbacks.
The banks thought they were too big to fail. In the event so did the government. The consequences otherwise were too devastating to contemplate. It can be argued that happened with the country in 1707. I am sure there were factions who had championed union since James 1 (aka 6) and before (MQS?), but faced with a crisis the power would shift. History is written by the winners. If you want the real story you had to be alive then. And on both sides.

Brexit/Eurin we are living it, and don't we know it!

As with Berwick on Tweed, the neverendum will leave hanging threads for the loosers to pull at. We are, after all, on the second lap. Ce n'est pas?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM

N'est-ce pas, shurely Jimmy?? :0(

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Jun 16 - 12:35 PM

OK, my take on the EU thing then then! I studied economics up to a point, but it seems to me that people need a degree or beyond to make a reasoned decision on June 23rd, so we are left to rely on the "experts" and this is where the problem starts, and we are bombarded with wave upon wave of bullshit and scare stories, so I've decided to adopt a different approach based on these "experts" and how much trust we can put in them. It makes rather depressing reading, but might encourage some of us who are befuddled by all the facts a figures to take part in the democratic process.

I decided to give them all an "arsehole" rating, which I'll abbreviate to "a rating" for short, and work out which of the two sides has the biggest "arsehole" rating and then vote for the other side.

The "in" side comes off very badly at the moment here with the 3 biggest arseholes, Blair, Cameron and Osborne - I would give Blair an "a rating" of 100, and Cameron and Osborne in the 90s. However, the "in" side aren't having it all their own way, as the "out" side has its own big hitting arsehole in Rupert Murdoch who would also have an "a rating" somewhere in the mid 90s. Some of the "out" people have in fact succeeded in reducing their "a rating" lately, such as Michael Gove now he is not winding up teachers, but I do stress that it is important not to make a decision at this point as some of the big players may dramatically increase their rating as the vote gets nearer including Nigel Farage; also the "in" campaign also has some important players like Jeremy Corbyn who have a very low "a rating" although this is somewhat offset by his lack of overall enthusiasm. It also pays not to be too hasty in lowering an a-rating for people like Ian Duncan Smith, who have suddenly had this "Road to Damascus" moment and now see themselves as the champion of the common man. Caution advised here!

It would however be impossible for Tony Blair to increase his "a rating" as he is already at the top of the scale. It is also important to distinguish those with a high "a rating" from those who are merely irritating like Liz Kendall and Anna Soubry. So, on the day I will probably take the five or six leading campaigners on each side and tot up the "A ratings" before voting - it's all to play for! Hope this makes as much sense as most of the other stuff posted on the subject?

It is important to stress that an overall picture of behaviour be built up based on history before the EU debate began as well as during the debates.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM

I am genuinely undecided. My instinct is to Remain. I voted to join the Common Market, and I think the economic arguments for doing so still stand. The freedom and flexibility to live and work anywhere offer greater opportunities, although personally I have have no plans to take advantage of them. My children might though.

EU has created relationships and a shared mutual interest between countries which were traditionally hostile to one another. It is now unthinkable that those countries could go to war again. It is easy for those of us who grew up after the War to take this for granted, but history shows it is not inevitable. Of course, the UK leaving the EU would not mean that it falls apart, but it would be a destabilising influence ata time when the EU is under a number of pressures, from Greece's problems to the influx of refugees. So I don't think it would be good for us to do anything which could make things worse.

On the other hand, I identify as British rather than European. As an institution, the EU is dysfunctional and the ruling bureaucracy appears to be pursuing its own agenda rather than following the direction of the elected governments and the European Parliament. Closer co-operation is one thing, but I don't believe a European state is achievable or desirable - we are all too different, with different languages, cultures and outlooks, to be forced into a one-size-fits-all state.

I can see the arguments on both sides. What does infuriate me is the timing of this - there is no particular reason to raise this now, the timing is entirely due to Cameron's wish to neuter sections of his own party. If it blows up in his face and the vote is to leave, we face considerable uncertainty and short-term pain - whether there will be long-term gains is anyone's guess. If the vote is to remain, it will make it much harder to revisit the question if an issue should arise with the EU that really should make us think again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM

Good post Mr Jones, although I favour immediate exit.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 08:18 AM

I voted to join the Common Market

Did you? How did you do that? At the time of the 1975 referendum we had already been stitched up into the EEC for two years.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 11:48 AM

I am unconvinced by any of the arguments.I voted against joining. I am undecided

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

If we do leave will someone coin the word "brextricate"?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:12 PM

As some body has already pointed out, when we voted last, in the seventies, we were already a member of the European Economic Community. We were voting to remain or leave just like we are now. We did not know then that the intention was to become a United States of Europe. This information was kept hidden, presumably because the planners did not trust the electorate to share their vision.

So the first strike against the idea and actuality of the EU is it's intrinsic dishonesty and it's usurpation of democracy. It's a tyranny.

The idea itself is worthy. After two world wars in the first half of the 20th century some sort of arrangement was needed to prevent a third. The idea of a United States of Europe was the solution. This idea is now about 70 years old. Very few people today drive a 70 year old car, I'd bet that nobody uses a 70 year old computer or telephone. The world has changed enormously in 70 years but the idea behind the EU has not changed. It has not adapted to a vastly changed world and is probably not capable of doing so.

So the second strike against the EU is it's inflexibility. It's getting to be a bit of a fossil.

Do you guys on the sunset side of the pond know that for the last 20 years the EU has not been able to present a verified set of accounts? No one knows what's happening to the money. Or if they do know they are not telling.

So strike three is that the EU is either corrupt or incompetent, or both. It does not take good care of OUR money.

Then there's the Parliament. Every country in the EU already has a parliament of elected reprersentatives. Why do we need an additional layer of government above the government we have? Is it just more highly paid jobs for the boys? This EU Parliament cannot initiate legislation. It can only vote on legislation proposed by an unelected committee of appointees. Oh, and the whole Parliament ups sticks for one week in every month and moves from Brussels to Strasbourg. Why? To satisfy French Pride.

So strike four is also parts of strike one and three. More democratic deficit. More wasted money and more, almost criminal, stupidity.

Guess how I'll vote.

There is still merit in the idea of a united Europe. It's the current implementation that is so completely flawed. Whilst the EU is incapable of reform, we should leave.

Oh yes, one final point. If you would really want to wipe the fat smirks from the faces of David Cameron and George Osbourne, and I'm sure some of you do, then vote LEAVE when you get the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM

Labour voters, Mr Corbyn has been anti EU for most of his political life. At the moment he is being held to ransom by three quarters of the Parliamentary Labour Party who being Blairites, obviously see the megalith as a future gravy train.....It is an organisation, set up for the benefit of politicians and the rich industrialists.

Why would anyone vote to retain membership of such a cabal?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 16 - 05:21 PM

Two excellent posts from Howard Jones - 06 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM and from Stanron - 06 Jun 16 - 03:12 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 01:46 AM

Stanron is absolutely right. At the time of the '75 referendum, they all swore on a stack of Bibles that what we were voting on was a purely commercial organisation, absolutely guaranteed to have no political purposes or overtones whatsoever. Any fule could see even then that they lied in their filthy throats -- and so it has proved in ♠♠♠ to the power of ∞+.

Please, let us get free of this incubus; the only thing on which its two leading members, France & Germany, being in agreement, is hatred of us: one lot for our having had to rescue them from the other by defeating them, that other for that defeat. That stinking swine De Gaulle then demonstrated his gratitude for having rescued him and letting him ponce about in a silly uniform pretending to command the non-existent 'Free French', claiming to be the equal of Churchill & FDR and getting the French into all those meetings where they had no claim whatever to be ["cheese-eating" what was it the guy in the Simpsons called them?!] by kicking us in the teeth by keeping us out of the cozy little club set up with his erstwhile foes apparently for the sole purpose of keeping us out [Ok Ok: I say again, "just becoz you're paranoid doesn't mean thy are not out to get you"], when that pathetic loser Heath decided he would like to wallow in the glory of having got us in.

It will be evident that the whole concept makes me want to throw up. For gods sake let's get out!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM

Well said Michael I could not agree more.

Allan Conn the prudent placement and presence of English troops in the North at that time would have more to do with the possibility of Jacobite activity backed by the French from 1701 onwards. The Jacobites first "biggy" in 1715 was supposed to have been struck much earlier in the War of the Spanish Succession, they did make a serious attempt in 1708 but Admiral Byng managed to hold off the French Fleet and prevent French troops, arms and the "Old Pretender" from landing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Llanfair
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

It is going to be hard to make an informed decision, when the "facts" are so dodgy. My big concern is the time it would take to cut the strings if the voters decide to come out of the EU.
I can foresee all kinds of chaos as we extricate ourselves from a beaurocratic cobweb with strands touching all parts of our lives. Things will happen blamed on the exit, many to line pockets, as happened when we first joined (the price of butter and meat as an example).
Having said that, I'm leaning towards exit, mainly because Cameron wants to stay in!!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 05:35 AM

I ran across this whilst researching the In or Out issue. I found it interesting and informative... but like so many others in the U~K I am no academic in these things. Please read this and give me an honest opinion of whether it is correct. Best wishes.. Mike....................................

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Llanfair
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM

Mike.....Thank you, that's the first time I have really understood what's going on. All the other "information" I've seen has been rhetoric and half truths.
I feel I can make an informed choice now.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 03:58 PM

look at the other Europeans as neighhbours
I realise that Europe is no more run by beaurocrats than any othe country
I understand that all legistlation is scrutinised by all country's MEPs, elected by the people of the countries they represent.
I understand that the European laws are for ALL the people of Europe.
I recognise that all national interests are not the same as UK's
I recognise that UK borders are as good as and sometimes better than our neighbours and entry conditions for ILLEGAL immigrants will not change no matter who wins.
I have first hand experience of employers who will not work to the same rules as our neighbours and as such lobby our government via the Tory party to have them changed .
I have seen that the Tory party has tried to make anti trade union laws and do not want a Westminister government to be given carte blanche to do as they like while the labour paty is in decline.

On the lighter side I see Boris Johnson as a Moses trying to lead his flock out to the wilderness while taking the wrong tablets or is it 30 pieces of silver?

Seriously ...I see Michael Gove and cronies as advocates for unrestricted US involvement in providing healthcare in the UK and a rundown of the NHS.
Maybe I'm naive, but I wonder what do the leaders of the Brexit campaign have to gain personally and more importantly, financially, thro their backers.

ps I cast my postal vote today can anyone guess what I voted for?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 06:03 PM

Well said Kenny. I'd add a few more points. In the last fifty decades there has been no war between any of the EU democracies. I have never been called up. My son has never been called up. We have no Franco, Tito, Salazar or Greek colonels any more. If you join the EU you have to promise to be a democracy and to sign up to human rights rules. It works.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: vindelis
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 07:05 PM

I voted, for the first time, in June 1975. On that occasion I felt the Government had burned bridges by joining and it would be a retrograde step to leave, two years later. Having seen the benefits of equal ops, fair and open competition, Disability discrimination, Equality Diversity and Human Rights Commission; not to forget increases in maternity and the introduction of paternity leave; I feel we could be better off staying in.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jun 16 - 11:05 PM

"In the last fifty decades there has been no war between any of the EU democracies."

Shome mishtake, shurely?

A perfect example of the dangers of adopting the current BBC buzzword - 'decade' - hardly ever heard up to a few years ago, but seemingly now required, by those in authority, to be used at every conceivable opportunity by every public-facing employee.

Five decades? What's wrong with 'fifty years'?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:47 AM

I was rather mystified by that "Fifty decades" too.

Fifty decades is 500 years and in that time there have been dozens if not hundreds of wars between European countries.

Well put Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: G-Force
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:35 AM

I see it as an abusive relationship. If a woman is in an abusive relationship, she just has to get out of it, even if there may be a short term financial loss.

Well, we are that woman, and the EU is that relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

G-Force. I totally agree with that!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 05:49 AM

Sorry, I meant fifty years. Or five decades. Take yer pick! 🤓

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM

I think everyone is missing the point that mass migration is very bad for the poor Eastern European countries as well as our own country in the long term.
Who runs the public services and infrastructure in places like Poland or Romania? These places must be absolute hell holes for the poor.

"Free movement".....is simply another way of practicing exploitation, in fact it was explained to us by Blair as making us "more competitive".......what do you think he meant by that?

Personally I think its about time that we realised that the days of wine and roses are gone and we live a wasteful and empty lifestyle.
We expect everything...as a right and are willing to contribute as little as possible. Exploitation is evil, more evil than perceived racism......a good dose of reality is urgently required.

We fool ourselves that membership of this Union can protect our wasteful way of life, once again refusing to accept responsibility for our own wellbeing.....which of course will mean lower living standards for our spoiled middle class, more concentration on hard work to service our society and less bullshit about personal and minority rights.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

In what sense is the relationship "abusive?" That sounds a bit like someone's soundbite to me.

"Voting to bring back sovereignty" - well we'd better get out of NATO in that case and disentangle ourselves from US foreign policy, which we seem to be tied into at every turn. What kind of "sovereignty" do we enjoy when we're scared stiff of distancing ourselves from people like Dubya? Also, we'd better nationalise all the big corporations, run by unelected millionaires in their own interests and the interests of shareholders in order to make as fat a profit as possible and pay themselves massive bonuses, not the interests of their workers grinding away on the minimum wage or of their customers who are charged as much as possible just short of making them squeal, companies often banding together in unelected cartels in order to not have to cut prices. Frankly, this bogus "sovereignty" argument just makes me laugh. There IS an accountable European Parliament and we DO agree with almost all the laws they make. And we ALREADY have unelected lawmakers in this country, some of whom are men in frocks. The EU issues over "unelected" and "sovereignty" are as nothing compared to the democratic deficit we already put up with in this country. And the actual referendum, which Cameron had to promise when he thought Farage was going to nick dozens of his seats, is the most undemocratic thing of all. Tens of millions of non-experts being fed scaremongering bullshit from both sides, their fear of foreigners being mecilessly played on by the out campaign ("seventy million Turks might one day be able to move here" - Christ on a bike), a pack of lies being peddled about our contribution, impossible promises made to farmers that they'll still get the same same subsidies if we come out (like hell they will), hubristic talk about how the EU will still have to give us favourable deals even if we leave the single market. And I wonder how many of those millions actually know what the single market is and that, is we remain a part of it, free movement of people would remain mandatory. This campaign is going to be looked back on as an historical low point in this country. It's shabby and it's disreputable.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 08:33 AM

"Sorry, I meant fifty years. Or five decades. Take yer pick!"

I knew that, of course, Steve! But you're usually so precise, I found it impossible to refrain from poking fun! 😄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 08:38 AM

I was only speaking generally... 😉

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM

Dunno about precise. I've spotted two instances in my longer post that evaded the attention of my proofreading. 😳

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:25 AM

While we are at it, we should also remove the unelected civil service who are largely responsible for framing and implementing legislation in the UK and leave it 100% to democratically elected representatives.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:30 AM

Didn't you know? The seventy million Turks are going to all live next door to the 5 million Rumanians would arrived 2 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM

Aye, bloody country's goin' ter t'dogs. They come here, tek us jobs, shag us women and run us bloody health service as well as wipin' all th'old people's bums in them 'omes. If only they'd just come 'ere fer t'bloody benefits, shut up an' stop interfering ' wi' everythin' else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for those wise words Steve...... still laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:25 PM

Yes yes yes, there there; irony and parodic demolitions of one's opponents' arguments always make for good soundbite. But it can equally well be urged that membership of NATO, US alliance, & such precautions in case a military emergency might arise, which Steve claims above to be analogous, are just not equally prejudicial to our sovereignty, as would be making our daily economic and commercial transactions subject 24/7 to examination & interference from entities who do not necessarily bear us goodwill. As I say, such contentions make good soundbite; but not good practical sense IMO.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM

... & SPB, the Civil Service may both frame & implement our legislation; but they do not pass it, or just blithely go ahead & put it into operation, until 100% of it has indeed been passed by the elected representatives you rubricate. Or do you imagine that Sir Humphrey is just sitting there running the whole show with absolutely no ref whatsoever to Jim Hacker?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 16 - 07:47 PM

Michael, I'm wondering whether there's some medical condition that forces you to take comments literally and bypass all the intended sarcasm.

The latest farce is the breakdown of the voter registration system, meaning that thousands of people missed the deadline through no fault of their own. To its credit, the government has now extended the deadline by two days. Now most of those who are trying to register are (a) likely to vote and (b) young first-time voters who seem likely to vote remain. So guess what the leave campaign are saying. It's a fix. It's a ploy to get more remain voters onside. It's "gerrymandering" (no, really - I actually heard a leave spokesman saying that!). It seems that the leave campaign don't actually believe in the rather inconvenient democracy that they bleat about us losing by being in the EU. Ironic, eh? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM

Steve, they missed the deadline through their own stupidity. We've been advised for months now that we need to be registered to vote, and we've known the deadline, but those numpties left it until the last few hours to try to register. How is that 'no fault of their own'?

Anyone with at least one working brain-cell is aware that it's perfectly possible, indeed likely, that a computerised system can be swamped by excessive demand. So leaving registration until the final evening was sheer stupidity (or laziness) on their part.

No sympathy here for the stupid. Fuck 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:40 AM

"I have never been called up. My son has never been called up. We have no Franco, Tito, Salazar or Greek colonels any more. If you join the EU you have to promise to be a democracy and to sign up to human rights rules. It works." - Steve Shaw

I reckon that you and I are about the same age somewhere between 60 and 70 so I have got news for you:

Neither of us has ever been in danger of being "Called Up" and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU - It does however have a great deal to do with the UK abandoning National Service.

Same goes for your son.

Franco - died of natural causes his removal had nothing to do with the EU. Same goes for Tito and Salazar.

The Greek colonels relinquished their rule due to the 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus and one year later were tried for high treason and found guilty. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:42 AM

Well yes, Backswoodsman, they were silly to leave it so long [daughter of mine registered in part from Thailand and in part from Portugal ages ago..] But that is only one side of the argument. The other is that the government had a legal obligation to provide a means of registration and they failed in that duty, so in the event of a close vote the result would be open to legal challenge. It may well be that it was a mistake to leave the on-line systems open as long as the postal alternative, so when the almost-inevitable crash happened there would still be a legal alternative available, but they didn't, so there wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM

Thank you MGM for your last two posts - saved me the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 04:28 AM

DMcG - I don't disagree with what you say, however I was only contesting the 'no fault of their own' bit. They left it to the last minute - that's lazy and stupid, and their own choice, n'est-ce pas? So to say it was 'no fault of their own' is wrong.

So....fuck 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM

Trouble is, Steve, that you are just not very good at the 'sarcasm' bit. You have such a record of OTT assertions on all manner of topics that intentions of sarcasm on your part are liable to remain unidentified; and I have in any case already made the point that irony, sarcasm, satire, all such whevs, are, at the best of times & in the ablest of ✍✍ (which yours, I repeat, are not), liable to backfire and bite the perpetrators in the ɷ!

Still, keep on trying. I expect you'll make a proper point one of these fine days.

Regards

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

I have no doubt that the rules were changed as it was considered to be in the interests of the Remain campaign.
Just more gerrymandering.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 07:51 AM

akenaton wrote: Just more gerrymandering.

There are bound to be dirty tricks by those who have the most to loose. No one has more to loose than David Cameron and George Osbourne. If the UK votes to leave their careers are toast. Maybe George could remain as Chancellor but his hopes of being Prime Minister would go down to zero.

Perhaps the harder they try, the more people will see through their little tricks. Only two weeks to go.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM

Just listening to the secretary for Northern Ireland sticking her fingers in her ears and going "La la la". Whatever the result in the uk, EU citizens will be able to travel to Eire under free movement rules. If Britain does vote to leave then either you have no effective border between Eire and Northern Ireland, and hence free albeit illegal immigration indirectly into the rest of the U.K., or you have a strong border between Eire and NI, or between NI and the Rest of the U.K. It is ridiculous to just shrug and say there is no issue.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 11:19 AM

Am I under a misapprehension that if you are on the voting register that no further action is needed to vote in this one ?    I can think of no reason why an additional application would be required , unless there is some ulterior motive by the govt.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 12:17 PM

Correct, Pete - if you're already registered, there's no need to re-register D so, if you voted in the elections earlier this year, you're already registered. Only people who aren't already registered needed to register now.

FWIW, I was Regis,there'd prior to the recent elections, I received my postal-voting referendum papers, and I sent my vote in last week.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 12:19 PM

F***ing iPad predictive text shite!

I was registered prior.....!!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

Hi Stanron

< " Perhaps the harder they try, the more people will see through their little tricks. Only two weeks to go. ">

Too true, Many of us have seen through through them since day 1.

i know many around here, in Osborne's constituency who are voting to hopefully get him out !!!!!

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:20 PM

Well, until TTIP got filleted, and, more recently, probably blocked by the French, I was vaguely near the fence.

But every time I see Brexit propaganda it contains a pack of lies. For example the EU does not cost us £350m per week. And the implication that he con-servatives would spend that £350m or any other sum preserving the NHS is fanciful. The Brexiteers fanny on about workers' rights allegedly won by the trade unions, without any reference to the fact that the trade unions were castrated by the bitch Thatcher and have since been hogtied by voting and financial restrictions. The Brexiteers lie that UK holiday entitlement is 5.6 weeks but EU 4 - in fact the UK 5.6 weeks includes 8 public holidays - exactly equal to the EU requirement of 4 weeks not including bank holidays - and pretty well all EU countries have more public holidays than we do. Every single Brexit alleged fact that I have checked with care has turned out to be false or misleading.

Then there is the endless rhetoric about floods of migrants destroying the UK's NHS and economy. Rubbish. Without migrant workers (a large proportion being from EU countries) the NHS would be short about 20% of its workforce, and would collapse. Migrants make a huge net contribution to our economy and are far less likely to claim benefits than the UK born.

The dishonesty of the Brexiteers has confirmed my intention to vote Bremain - and the huge leave posters on the gate of my grunting Neanderthal neighbour and the door of the pub over the road which is UKRAP central (your IQ drops 20% if you cross the threshold) reinforce that intention. So I am in the company of conservative MP Dr Sarah Wollaston, who recently jumped from the Brexit ship because she was no longer able to stand the Brexit lies.

Then look at the politically established Brexit supporters. Boris, Gove, Cummings, the toxic Matthew Elliott, IDS, Grayling, Whippingdale, Lawson, Carswell, der Fuhrage, Arron Banks, the untrustable gorgeous George Galloway, Lawson. Oh dear!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

And with apologies for the long cut and paste, here is a view from Tobias Kliem, a law lecturer I used to work with, who is German and has worked here for many years: -

"The Remain campaign so far has been an even bigger disappointment than the Leave campaign. So, in a sleepless moment of arguing over the internet I put some reasons for staying in the EU together. Feel free to copy / share / modify / disregard as evil Brussels propaganda.

1. Peace. Europe is the most violent continent on the planet. For many a century, we have been bashing each others' heads in over one stupid conflict after the other. Britain and France can't agree on dynastic questions? War. Austria, France, Sweden and a bunch of German states can't agree on a religion? War. Germany and France can't agree on the next king of Spain? War. An Austrian prince is shot in Serbia? War. Now, for the first time in history, we are looking back at 70 years of sometimes bitter political arguments without any of us ever reaching for a gun. Instead we have Parliamentary debates, heated discussions amongst governments and, in the very worst case, proceedings at the Court of Justice of the EU. Britain leaving the EU doesn't mean we start killing each other again tomorrow, but it means the very basis of this wonderful (albeit boring) stability is getting eroded. We have had periods of time in Europe where we believed the killing is over and a system of alliances not unlike NATO would protect that peace. Then the first world war happened.

2. Democracy. The EU can be improved, sure. I am quite critical of a lot of things in the EU, particularly about the influence and backroom deals of national governments, particularly of larger member states like Germany, France and the UK. National governments determine too much, and it would be good to give more powers to the European Parliament. But this would mean a more federal Union, and the last time I checked that's the last thing Brexiters want. And even the current system is very far from a being as undemocratic as Brexiters describe it, especially considering any alternatives. A non-EU UK will need to conclude many a trade agreement, which will almost certainly include EU like regulation of a large variety of things. UK consumers won't be too excited about genetically modified food from the US or carcigenic plastic from China, and these markets will have their own rules that could be problematic for the UK's business. All these rules will be negotiated behind closed doors by governments. And given the size of the respective markets, it is highly unlikely that the UK will have the upper hand in these negotiations. In the EU, these rules come from the Commission (which is appointed by 28 democratically elected governments and then approved and overseen by the democratically elected Parliament), the Council (the 28 democratically elected governments with a very strong UK voice) and the Parliament. No other international organisation that the Brexiters love so dearly - the WHO, NATO or whatever else they dream of - has anywhere near that standard of democracy.

3. Immigration. The UK gets a fantastic deal out of EU immigration. There is not a single statistic that doesn't show that immigrants don't contribute far more to the social system than they take out, and there is not a single statistic that doesn't show that immigrants don't steal, but create jobs. The NHS is one of the best examples - because of various reasons connected to the stupidity of running education like a private business, the UK does not have enough trained doctors and nurses. So instead of investing millions into decent medical schools, the UK gets these people for free. Spanish doctors, Romanian bankers or German University lecturers (cough) work their butts off and help contribute to this country. Plus, hundreds of thousands of English senior citizens get to enjoy warm temperatures living in the south of Spain.

4. Solidarity. After centuries of killing each other at the first possible opportunity, we now live in a Europe in which the taxes of German car industry workers are used to build bridges in Greece, and the taxes of Italian bankers are used to preserve nature reserves in Wales. I really struggle to understand why this is a bad thing. Sure, people tend to be egoistic, and right wing campaigners are on the rise everywhere in the world at the moment, but does that mean the UK should be on the forefront of this wave of ignorance and short-sightedness? No, it should be proud of its EU contributions. Helping to improve the infrastructure in Sicily is a far better long term use of UK tax money than buying another failed bank (and it really is a tiny, tiny part of the UK's budget). And the thought that any of these Brexiters would use the current EU contribution for protecting steel workers or helping the NHS should really have a look what Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Boris Johnson or Nigel Farage think about the NHS.

5. Economic Stability. This seems to be the only point David and Gideon can make in the Remain camp, so I don't need to explore this too deeply. But to talk about "Project Fear" when people point out that turning ones back on a Union responsible for more than 50% of the UK's trade brings a few uncertainties is a strange position. The nose dive the Pound is making every time the Brexit camp gains another percentage point is a bit of an indication of the markets' opinion (not that I give much on those, but I'm not a market loving conservative as most Brexiters are).

6. Law. For any left leaning person, this is difficult to write. Hasn't the CJEU decided (in Laval and Viking) that Unions are not allowed to enforce better working conditions over foreign companies? Hasn't the CJEU decided (in Dano) that states are allowed to withhold benefits for what the UK press would describe as bad immigrants? Yes. But for the UK's almost completely market friendly traditions, EU Law has been a breath of fresh air. Women's right to equal treatment in the job? EU Law. Consumer Protection rights? EU Law. Environmental protection? EU Law. A large proportion of workers' rights? EU Law. Hell, the EU even managed to tell our mobile phone companies that maybe they can't charge insanely high and completely unjustified roaming charges any more within the EU, something UK politics would usually let the market deal with (see the mess you call a train system). In the UK, most of this is regarded as "red tape", but I believe that laws are necessary to protect the weak.

7. Influence. The UK is a strong player because of its friends and allies. And no, no normal person in the US has ever heard of the phrase "special relationship". And definitely not Donald Trump.

8. Pro Brexit Folks. The right wing press and significant parts of the leave campaign are playing with really dangerous stuff here. They are not only waking the sleeping dragon, they are feeding it with babies so it gets the taste of human flesh. The anti-immigrant headlines of the Daily Mail or the Daily Express, the "part-Kenyan" remarks of Boris Johnson and the constant hints at the inherent criminal minds of Romanians from UKIP are pretty shocking. From a personal perspective, I moved to the UK almost 10 years ago and was amazed at how open minded and wonderfully multicultural this country is. Now, after paying taxes for 9 years and not claiming a penny in benefits, I feel more and more as if I am not wanted and as if I have to justify my presence here. If the Brexiters win, this will get much, much worse. The campaign rides on the back of a pretty xenophobic vibe, and the people voting for this will demand harsh immigration laws. Anybody believing that leaving the EU will lead to a more open immigration policy towards the Commonwealth nations should read Goethe's Sorcerors Apprentice. Plus the right wingers will need a new scapegoat.

9. Diversity. Isn't it great to live together, to travel visa free, to have the chance to move to France or Hungary or Sweden or Portugal or Poland or whatever? Isn't it wonderful to learn different languages, to experience different cultures, to eat different foods, to hear different viewpoints? This openness used to be the strength of Britain. All of a sudden it is all about "defending Britishness". What a load of rubbish.

10. Peace. Not just in Europe, but in the whole world: A lot of people see what went on here, and if you ever go to International Law conferences like I do, you will hear Africans, Asians and even US Americans talk about the EU with dreamy eyes. With all its flaws, this is a project that broke the cycle of eternal wars and turned bitter enemies into long lasting allies whose only disputes are about milk prices and fishing quotas. Why, oh why, should we destroy that and show the world that ultimately we're also too egoistic to get along?"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:24 PM

I'd like to remind people that there strictly speaking is no such country as Great Britain, and hasn't been since 1801. And in fact the only time there was a country with that name was between 1707 and 1801.

So the term "Brexit" is founded on an untruth, appropriately enough. Start as you mean to go on...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 03:53 AM

Does that go for Bremain as well Kevin? If so why not say so.

Must say Bridge that pal of yours Kliem doesn't half talk a load of rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 04:10 AM

Well that nails it then, Teribus. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 05:10 AM

Teribus, An intelligent person, who disagrees with a contribution to a debate would respond with well reasoned, evidence-based counter-argument. What does that say about the intelligence of a person who is only capable of responding with inane crap like "...talk a load of rubbish". Well if people are polling to the polling stations with that attitude, I'f question their mental capacity to vote.

It does worry me that sbits like Fagarse, Gove, Hunt, Johnson, and that condescending git who was on question time last night - can't remember his name. gain more control within UK politics. And what is worse, is when then turn this wonderful country into a shit-hole, the scum will have dictated that I must be denied my right to live/work/retire in another EU country in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM

To be frank and honest with you SPB-Cooperator I would certainly agree with you but in this case I just couldn't be bothered, but felt like registering my opinion of Bridge's cut-n-paste of his pals opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 06:45 AM

Apologies SPB-Cooperator, but I see that you are the sort of intelligent person, who disparages people they don't see eye to eye by calling them silly names - e.g "that sbits like Fagarse" - Did you mean Nigel Farage by any chance? If so why not just say so - What does that say about you intelligence?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

Those nice folk at Bilderberg are deciding the future of Europe of the next few days, and we're not invited.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 10:12 AM

From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 09 Jun 16 - 08:24 PM
I'd like to remind people that there strictly speaking is no such country as Great Britain, and hasn't been since 1801.
.,,.
You reckon, Kevin? Please recite to yourself the full name of the entity that "UK" stands for: "The United Kingdom of [what was that???!] & Northern Ireland".

And what does the national plate say that they put on our cars when going abroad? Last time I looked it said "GB"...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 10:41 AM

Great Britain is a geographical term not a political one.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for the clarification backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exi
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 11:31 AM

I've only seen "Bremain" used in the press one time, Teribus. Normally it's "Remain". But it's Brexit all the time - I don't think I've seen a single reference to "Exit campaigners".

"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" MGM. Precisely - one island, one part of an island. Neither are nations. As for what they put on cars going abroad, that's a sort of colloquial slang used by the authorities, rather like the way they still talk about "MOT tests" when we haven't had an MOT for years.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 08:27 PM

I am surprised by the number of irish people that have come up to me and told me to vote to leave

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 16 - 08:48 PM

I suspect you might get quite a lot of people in other countries in the EU who could say the same. For a variety of reasons...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 02:27 AM

'MGM. Precisely - one island, one part of an island. Neither are nations.'
.,,.
Ah, but you didn't say "no such nation", Kevin. You said "no such country". I still maintain there is -- even if it is a federation of 3 countries, it is still, in itself, a country... A USGB, perhaps?

Not but what this is just semantic play, really. As the late Prof Joad was wont to say at the drop of anybody's hat, "It all depends what you mean by...". We both know in this instance what we mean by...

≈≈M≈≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 03:57 AM

"I am surprised by the number of irish people that have come up to me and told me to vote to leave"
My experience is exactly the opposite
Of all the countries in Europe, Ireland benefited the best out of being a member, the success of The 'Celtic Tiger', Ireland's economic boom was due to her membership - it was the national and international Bankers who naused that up - not Europe.
One thing Britain's exit would mot certainly bring about is the necessity of passports to travel to and from Ireland and the border checkpoints between the Republic and the Six Counties will be a feature of our lives once again.
Presumably, in the event of further 'Troubles' - always a possibility, especially this time of year, it will be necessary to send troops to maintain order.
Britain leaving Europe will set the Peace Process back a quarter of a century.
It appears from this side of the Irish Sea that the Brexit Campaign has been more about 'winning back' a mythical independence that Britain can no longer have because of Thatcher's and her ilk's systematic destruction of Britain's Industry and less about the well being of Britain and her people.
I've never been a great fan of Europe's political agenda but I have come around to accepting the economic and social benefits of membership, when handled properly.
Britain's approach to membership has always been a "to be or not to be" one - completely a half-arsed of trying to get benefits without accepting any of the responsibility.
I found some of the public interviews on whether to say or go, somewhat quaintly archaic and in some cases, utterly ludicrous, dating beyond the Battle of Waterloo as far back as The Armada.
One thing is certain, exit will be an utter disaster for the unemployed who will not be able to find work in Britain and will no longer be able to travel abroad freely for work.   
Six years ago there were 397 million Britons living abroad - that figure has now accelerated considerably
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/so-many-brits-now-live-abroad-that-theyre-causing-immigration-debates-oh-the-irony-a6723006.
This appears to be the situation in Europe
This whole thing seems to be as thought through to me as anything else regarding immigration to Britain has - not at all
"What does that say about you intelligence?"
Wow - a bit of a 'Road to Damascus for you, of all people Teribus!
I'd have thought Farrago to be much nearer the point - the man's a Crypto-Fascist, beer-swilling buffoon whose policies go not go beyond getting rid of Johnny-foreigner.
His first job, if he ever attains any sort of authority, will be to muzzle members of his own party so as not to reveal what Ukip is really about.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 04:07 AM

Should read 3.97 Million
Too early in the morning
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

Aside from a lot of the Unionist tradition who appear to be drawn to Brexit like moths to a flame, about the only Irish people I can imagine wanting Brexit would be the occasional builder who worries about Polish competitors, maybe someone fancying stirring up another round of Troubles up North, or perhaps the odd one who reckons anything that harms England the way Brexit probably would is something to bring on.

Or of course someone who's run into the wrong kind of English football fans. I reckon in Marseilles this week there's a surge of French support for Brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 04:01 AM

McGrath,you can imagine whatever you like my experience has been different from Jim Carrolls.
in my opinion, no one has produced convincing arguments on either side.    Europe is an inefficient bureaucratic empire that represents the interests of multinational capitalism, by stealth it has changed it is no longer what it was when we joined.. a trading group.
neither option appeals to me very much,what an appalling campaign on both sides, two groups of incompetent idiots

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:02 AM

Every country in the so called free world has an inefficient bureaucratic empire that represents the interests of multinational capitalism. The farmers subsidy situation in Scotland is a perfect example of this

If you vote Brexit you are giving a vote to unrestricted capitalism in the UK by their Tory Supporters.
The EU is a good method of restraint on the worst excesses of this.

GSS u maybe live in a part of Ireland where the people are happy for this to happen for their own selfish reasons

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:28 AM

"The EU is a good method of restraint on the worst excesses of this."    just your opinion,and speculation not fact at all, if you vote remain imo you are also giving a vote to unrestricted capitalism in the uk, as i say its a f###### awful choice. much scraremongering and speculation on both sides.
it is important for all countries to have control over their own economies,and to have their own currencies, what i think we need is less centralisation of decision making and more devolution, the eu does not offer that,
th eu has destroyed the fishing industries of ireland and the uk,it has encouraged all kinds of changes in agriculture [generally to the detriment of small farmers]and then reversed them a few years later,
it has become a talking shop for overpaid politicians, of whom we have far too many.
it has introduced a minimium wage, it has managed to prevent war in western europe[ it was useless at preventing war between serbia and croatia].
but who is to say whether at some point in the future if the eu swung to the right whether the minimium wage would be scrapped.
th eu is not working well, but will leaving make it any better?. possibly in some ways and possibly not in others.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:37 AM

Serbia Croatia War
"Often described as Europe's deadliest conflict since World War II, the conflicts have become infamous for the war crimes involved, including ethnic cleansing, crimes against humanity and rape. These were the first European conflicts since World War II to be formally judged genocidal in character and many key individual participants were subsequently charged with war crimes.[7] The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was established by the UN to prosecute these crimes"      
                  Europe was unable to prevent that particular war.
and it was left to the UN who prosecuted these crimes

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM

European Common Fishing Policy
For anyone to read and agree or disagree with its aims its not too long a document

My post of 7 Jun 3:58 gives my reasons for my OPINIONS and SPECULATION
I made my decisions on principle and not on so called facts.
The media only highlights its shortcomings and not its benefits and as on Mudcat never lets the lack of relevant facts spoil a good story

I rarely trust Politicians "Facts with spin" I have worked in the facts and forecasting part of industry and politicians never tell the whole story. They rarely consider the "what if" factor, they leave that to public debate then bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:07 PM

Do you deny that the fishing industries of ireland and the uk have been destroyed by EU fishing policy, take a visit to Lowestoft talk to the fishermen, take a visit to any fishing port in ireland and listen to the voices of irish fishermen, not to official propaganda find out what the fisherman have to say.
it simply is not a level playing field, Spanish fishermen regularly break the rules and for a number of reasons get away with it, but it means your quote is in fact [in practice] NONSENSE because the rules are not enforced with fairness.
SO WHEN YOU TRY AND GIVE THE IMPRESSION WITH YOUR QUOTE THAT EVERYTHING IS ROSY FOR IRISH AND UK FISHERMEN BECAUSE OF THE EU YOU ARE IN FACT MUDDYING THE WATERS AND NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.   
your EU blurb does not convince me to vote one way, any more than UKIP and their scares about immigration convince me to vote the other way.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 01:42 PM

Here is a letter you might like to read KENNY, it rather contradicts your official line.Open letter from Donal O'Driscoll

Longtime fisherman and Fishermans Representative

Dear Minister Coveney,
Following are my suggestions regarding the CFP review:
In 1972, when negotiation were being finalised for Ireland's entry into the EEC (together with Denmark, Norway and the UK), it was proposed to the Irish negotiators that each country would have equal access to the fishing grounds of all other member countries, "up to the beach" as it was termed. Irish fishing interests were extremely unhappy with this prospect and after lengthy and hard negotiations, it was agreed that countries would be allowed to maintain their limits up to 12 miles, except in the case of those countries who could claim "historic rights" and who were allowed access up to six miles of all coasts.


Ireland became a member of the European Economic Community in 1973.

When we eventually joined, Ireland contributed 14% of the total European waters. In spite of this, we were only allocated between 4% and 5% of the demersal stocks and around 12% of the pelagic stocks. This was the first great anomaly, the reason for which was only recently clarified by the EU Commission for Fisheries. The reason that was given was that Ireland's fishing fleet was not sufficiently developed at the time to justify a greater portion of the available stocks. This has clearly not been the case for a long time but there has never been an attempt to alter this status quo, despite the fact that the Commission also said that these decisions were never intended to be written in stone and were thus presumably open to renegotiation at some future point.

Moving forward to the mid 1980s, when quota were introduced for the first time, Irish fishing interests accepted quotas in the hope that after a certain number of years, stocks would be sufficiently increased to allow boats to return to a non-quota fishing basis. At that time, Spain was not yet a member of the EU, yet they had been given permission to fish within the "Irish Conservation Box", presumably at the point when this box was created. At some point before Spain joined the EU, Spanish fishing companies started to buy up English-owned vessels, with which they then proceeded to fish up to the 12-mile limit off the Irish coast. Eventually this legal loophole grew to in excess of 100 vessels. In spite of vociferous complaints from Irish interests, the European Court decided to allow this exploitation of a glaring loophole in regulations to continue. Even after Spain joined the EU, they held onto these English registered "flagships, thereby giving them an even larger share of the fish pile than they were legally entitled to as members.


Spanish fishing vessel off the coast of Ireland.

This made a complete mockery of the quota system that had been set up in the first place and to which Ireland's fishermen were expected to adhere. The Irish waters were being fished more heavily than ever, before the quota system had been introduced! There was obviously no hope that fishing stocks would be replenished sufficiently to allow for a return to quota-free fishing, through no fault of the Irish fishermen themselves, although they are the ones who have to suffer the consequences. This all happened with the official blessing of the EU which to date seems to have not paid the slightest attention to this abuurd situation.


Fishing vessels moored in Cork Harbour in 2012.

In 2010, Ireland and all other maritime EU countries agreed to the establishment of a 200-mile limit in terms of geographical territory, making Ireland the third highest contributor of sea territory, within the EU maritime countries. This gave Ireland automatic rights, to any resources that fell within that 200-mile area. This implies that everything that swam in the seas off the Irish coast, within these limits, belonged by right to the citizens of the Irish Republic. The Irish people would surely be proud to own such a vast area of rich territory of minerals and fishing stocks. However, without consulting the Irish people the government of the time handed over our rights to these fishing stocks to Brussels. We gained nothing from this, in fact it returned us to our previous role as beggars within the European community. thereby and unwittingly granting some of our EU partners an even greater entitlement to those fish stocks.

How can Irish fishermen be expected to trust the officials who are now engaged in renegotiating a reform of the Common Fisheries Policy? The story so far has been a sad and sorry one, with Irish officialdom being completely unappreciative of the riches they are constantly giving away, coupled with a disingenuous exploitation of loopholes on the part of a few of neighbouring countries.

Following on to the proposed review of the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) the commissions published proposals regarding the introduction of Transferable Concessions (ie. quotas) posing a real danger to the Irish fishing industry. Amongst other threats, this will once again allow some of our EU partners to continue their quest to obtain more and more of available Irish fishing stocks. Transferable Concessions, (quotas) as published by the Commission are exactly what they say, "transferable". Foreign entities will thereby have the ability to buy up the already depleted Irish fish quotas thereby driving the Irish operators, both small and large out of our National Industry. In addition to the repercussions, it will be devastating for the rural coastal communities who depend so much on our local indigenous fishing industry. In 2010 the seafood sector contributed over 700 million to the Irish economy. The Irish indigenous fishing industry must NOW FIGHT to maintain and improve that contribution and ensure that same is not the subject of 'transfer' to some of our EU partners.

The CFP review must now go back to the 'drawing board' regarding the distribution and management of all Irish fishing stocks. This should involve all EU partners agreeing national fishery entitlements taking account of the respective new national geographical maritime areas. Thereafter each country should be obliged to manage their own national fish resource in line with accepted conservation policies.

Donal O'Driscoll
Longtime fisherman and Fisherman's Representative

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:46 PM

Thanks GSS
Donal's points are very well presented
The policy was obviously not implemented in the spirit it was conceived throughout the EU. The Spanish and Danish have obviously got the "ear" of someone early on ,and the penalty for not operating the policy is insufficient to deter if it exists at all.
The Spanish government is obviously in cahoots with someone in the commission (an opinion) and is in control of how it is implemented / ignored
As you may have noticed getting large organisations to acknowledge wrongdoing is an uphill struggle
Further info
Debating EUROPE - Fishing Policy

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:53 PM

Dick
It really is swings and roundabouts
It's true the fishing policy is crap - so are a few other things.
On the other hand, there are several hundred youngsters from this town at present working in Europe who, should Ireland leave, stand a fair chance of being sent home without a job.
Leaving is going to solve either the fishermen's problems nor the youngsters.
It's an issue you can't decide on the basis of single sets of circumstances - you have to take the whole picture into consideration.
What doesn't sort your part of Ireland sorts out one of our major problems here - jobs for school levers.
Scales and balances all the time.
Probably why your locals feel differently than our locals
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

"On the other hand, there are several hundred youngsters from this town at present working in Europe who, should Ireland leave, stand a fair chance of being sent home without a job."

I had no idea at all that Ireland was thinking of leaving the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:03 AM

"I had no idea at all that Ireland was thinking of leaving the EU."
It isn't, it couldn't afford to, but there are always the eejits who can't think beyond their own townlands.
There was a long discussion on the radio yesterday on the consequences to Ireland if Britain leaves - pretty gloomy, certainly as far as relations with The Six Counties goes - Quantum Leap backwards or what?
One TD in favour made it quite clear that she didn't have an answer to a single question of what would happen but still went on to 'defend' her case - politicians the world over, eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 02:00 PM

Then why mention it Jim?

Hundreds of youngsters from your town eh? All got on their bikes a-la Norman Tebbit and this is in the Republic of Ireland, where everything has been splendid since the departure of the British and even better after entry into the EEC, massive hand-outs, banks lending to people they should not have, EU driven austerity and bail-outs from the UK.

First of all Dev wrecks Ireland's economy with his ideological trade war with Great Britain and then the EU comes along and stiffs you again. Oddly enough the UK has never said No to the EU, whereas the Republic of Ireland has done so on two occasions, on each occasion the EU came back to get the answer they wanted in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 03:08 PM

You might get some the other way Jim. I had my first EU incomer clients who have decided to not go ahead with a remortgage until after the referendum. The guy has been working in the NHS here since the early 90s and has a family who see themselves as British. He wants to keep working for the NHS for pension reasons but is seriously thinking about moving to perhaps Donegal and try to work in Northern Ireland. They were worried that they'd lose residency rights here. I said that such a move for existing residents would be very unlikely and he agreed but then said that he felt a certain percentage of the population just didn't want him here now so doesn't feel comfortable - especially if the vote is for Leave

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:05 PM

Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia were not members of the European Community (European Union if you prefer) at the time of their wars (1991 to 2001). So, to somehow suggest that the failure to prevent their wars was a failure of the EC is simply untrue. It was a failure of the whole continent of Europe, of which the EC is just a part.

It is absolutely correct that, since the initial formation of the structure of nations we now call The European Community, there has been no war between any of its member-states during the period of their membership.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 07:52 PM

That's right. The EU didn't come out covered in glory exactly after the Yugoslav wars, but what you say is spot on.

Donald Tusk, using language I don't particularly favour, voiced an opinion today that a British exit would be catastrophic for the EU. I think that this is a dangerous situation that he is pointing to. Suppose the EU collapses after we leave. We could find a Europe in economic turmoil comprising disparate states with huge inequalities between rich and poor countries with their no longer enjoying mutual interests or a desire to prevent the weakest from becoming basket cases. Wouldn't do much for our trade either. We would quickly be back to pre-WW1 and pre-WW2 status in many regards. There could easily be a threat to democracy in a number of the poorest nations. Only twenty years separated those two wars. The Common Market was set up just twelve years after WW2 and the explicit aim of its early-fifties forerunner was to integrate nations in order to prevent future wars. Little Englanders love to tell us that no, it wasn't economic interdependence, mutual interest and an insistence on human rights and democracy among (eventually) 28 states that achieved this, but the iron fist of Nato (which, in effect, means giving up a big chunk of our sovereignty to the US and which had us involved in a 45-year Cold War with an insane arms race that saw us nervously watching apocalyptic drama-documentaries on the telly about nuclear Armageddon - they forget that bit).

So I'm in. My only grandchild is eight months old and I don't want him living in an economically unstable, warring future Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 03:08 AM

You don't want him living in an economically unstable Europe.

I've got news for you "Rip Van Winkle"......he already is!

Join the real world.....vote out.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 03:08 AM

Suppose the EU collapses after we leave.

Why should it? If we are going to base the argument on a "What If" premise then I think there are far worse what if scenarios than that to scare us with. Besides I thought those campaigning for us to remain believed that the EU is all things to all men, perfectly wonderful and we would be fools to leave.

We could find a Europe in economic turmoil comprising disparate states with huge inequalities between rich and poor countries with their no longer enjoying mutual interests or a desire to prevent the weakest from becoming basket cases.

"We could find!!!! you have got to be joking. I think we are there already ask the Greeks. Only the interests of two countries have ever been considered by the EU, those of France and those of Germany.

Wouldn't do much for our trade either.

Surprisingly enough I do not believe that that is true any longer.

We would quickly be back to pre-WW1 and pre-WW2 status in many regards.

I do not believe that there is any way that the British Empire would be recreated, although we would be free to trade with whoever we wished, we did so before.

There could easily be a threat to democracy in a number of the poorest nations.

Always has been and guess what? Nothing we could do to stop it due to the number of anti-war protesters who vehemently object to any sort of foreign intervention.

The Common Market was set up just twelve years after WW2 and the explicit aim of its early-fifties forerunner was to integrate nations in order to prevent future wars.

Correct but add the final bit ....to prevent future wars between France and Germany

Despite the ludicrous award of a Nobel Peace Prize the EU has not ensured peace in Europe it was totally powerless to influence what happened in Yugoslavia. The EU has not faced down any threat, it is unable to. The only major threat to western democracy since 1945 has been posed by Russia (Ask some of our newer eastern European EU members) and the only thing that has held Russia in check has been NATO and the existence of nuclear deterrence.

On that subject, what big chunk of sovereignty has been surrendered to the United States of America? And how did they involve us in a 45-year "Cold War"? For there to have been an insane arms race, then there had to be at least two participants and a reason for them to be racing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM

A post replete with delusions.

First, as in Orwell 1984-mode, the threat from the USSR, a basket case of a country for decades (wanna disagree?) was exaggerated out of all proportion for decades to prop up the NATO alliance. The upshot was a miserable money-wasting, stultifying and depressing Cold War for which the US was largely responsible and we couldn't do a bloody thing about it. We were kept firmly onside by being told that was two minutes to nuclear midnight for decades. Insane. What a way to live. And your hero Maggie even let the yanks plant their nukes in this country, which, had your big Russian bear threat been true, would have seen us cowering in the bunkers for a decade. Wonder why it didn't. Perhaps because those pesky Ruskies were too weak to do anything about it? One up for sovereignty, eh, Teribus? We do what the yanks tell us and you know it. Harold Wilson, to his credit, stood up to them over Vietnam and look where it got him (I don't credit him with much else, before you start).

I love the way you share blame for the Cold War so equitably. Would you care to share the blame for, lessee, WW2, the Falklands War or Saddam's invasion of Kuwait just as equitably? Tell us who you think saved us from Armageddon in 1962. How distance lends enchantment to the view...

Far worse scenarios than the EU melting down? What, you mean far worse than the prospect of coups in several countries, the prospect of more Balkan wars (unless you think they all now love each other to bits), a massive immigrant/refugee crisis? Or do you think such a collapse will take place at a time of great calm and economic prosperity, all nice and orderly? It would be the worst thing to happen to this planet since the world wars. Far worse things my arse.

I said "in many regards." The return of the good old empire was not one of the regards I had in mind. Stop making things up.

Wars between France and Germany? When was the last war between France and Germany that we didn't have to be in on, then?

Since when have anti-war protesters ever stopped a war?

Yugoslavia was not in the EU when it broke up. The countries there are in the EU now and are democracies. The ethnic tensions are still there but the wars have gone. To what do you ascribe that? Godly intervention??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:53 AM

"Then why mention it Jim?"
Because there is always the threat - I said that - keep up.
"where everything has been splendid since the departure of the British and even better after entry into the EEC
Never miss a chance to take a pop at the Irish - it seems to be an obsession; shouldn't you seek help for it?
Ireland have never been "splendid" as you dishonestly claim I have said - far from it (honesty doesn't seem to feature strongly on your personal Richter Scale) - but independence from Britain immediately made it a better place than it had under British room and provided it with an opportunity to improve or at least make its own mistakes -
The legacy of permanent immigration that was bequeathed by Britain made membership of the E.U. an essential for Ireland and the Irish have had the nouse to take advantage of the opportunities offered rather than following the British example of hastily building Little Englander walls to keep Johnny Foreigner out.
The kids here have somewhere to go when the politicians let them down, as they inevitably do.
British kids have only the increasing dole queues before them as British Industry (what there is of it) continues to go belly-up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 08:16 AM

Talking of delusions Steve Shaw - 14 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM

"First, as in Orwell 1984-mode, the threat from the USSR, a basket case of a country for decades (wanna disagree?) was exaggerated out of all proportion for decades to prop up the NATO alliance.

Isn't 20x20 hindsight a marvellous thing Shaw. Of course things like:

The Berlin Airlift
The East German Uprising 1953
The suppression of the Hungarian Revolution
The 1961 Berlin Crisis
The Cuban Missile Crisis
The crushing of the Prague Spring

Never really happened, the vast expansion of the Soviet Navy, the incursion flights into NATO Airspace, the massive army Exercises along NATO's borders and the Soviet Navy's Spring and Autumn Wars - all undertaken by a basket case of a country, a country that held most of eastern Europe in chains.

The USSR did not maintain an Army of almost 3 million men at immediate readiness. Far behind the US and the west in terms of technology the Soviets bankrupted themselves about five times trying to catch and overtake the Americans. Having lived through those times and served in the Navy during them, the threat was real enough, but NATO ensured that the defence posture of the West was always strong enough to dissuade the USSR from ever trying it on.

Through the course of the Cold War things got progressively better for those living in the West, while in the USSR and the Warsaw Pact countries things either got worse or just stagnated, as their supposed "workers paradises" fell apart.

In the nuclear arms race the Soviets always had more tactical warheads and missiles that threatened Europe, today they have more strategic warheads than the Americans and as you mentioned in the past the USSR did threatened to use them - they didn't because of NATO's second and third strike capability against which the Soviets had no defence - so MAD and nuclear deterrence worked. During the Cuban Missile Crisis the Soviets had no hope at all of getting any more missiles into Cuba as they did not control the Atlantic - NATO did.

So no surrender of sovereignty Shaw, we helped allies as we should and they helped us.

Sharing blame for the Second World War? Depends when you personally think it started. But if you are talking about Europe then it was a German war of aggression that they deliberately sought and instigated.

The Falklands Conflict, we never actually went to war for some very sound reasons, was triggered by an act of aggression on the part of the Military junta governing Argentina at the time. They decided to invade territory that belonged to us and we in return kicked them out of it over the course of 14 weeks.

Saddam Hussein's invasion and occupation of Kuwait was a simple straightforward attempted robbery on a massive scale. It was illegal and it was condemned by the United Nations and the United Nations Security Council.

I can tell you what would happen if the EU collapsed Shaw - every member state overnight would save themselves a whale of a lot of money, and they'd all rid themselves of a totally useless political organisation that has never ever really done anything. Do you honestly think that trade between countries would cease overnight? Don't be ridiculous. As far as Great Britain goes we buy more from them that they do from us, so if we leave they feel the pain, Great Britain is the second largest net contributor to the EU's coffers after Germany, if we leave Germany and the remaining member states would have to take up that slack, while we in the UK if we keep everything exactly the same as it is at present are immediately £24 billion better off. Keep VAT by all means but we are free to alter the rates as we please on whatever we please.

Oddly enough according to Margaret MacMillan Europe went from peace "at a time of great calm and economic prosperity" to a war of industrial proportions in the course of one month. Should the United Kingdom decide to quit the EU it does not automatically follow that the EU will collapse - it would however have to take stock and re-evaluate certain things and that would not be too bad a thing for it to do.

The massive emigration/refugee crisis"?? Blame Merkel and all those who opposed intervention in Libya and in Syria.

Wars between France and Germany? When was the last war between France and Germany that we didn't have to be in on, then?

Irrelevant Shaw - the reason the Steel and Coal Treaty and the Common Market was set up was to prevent any future war in Europe between France and Germany - fact read up on the history of it.

Since when have anti-war protesters ever stopped a war?

Libya and Syria.


Yugoslavia was not in the EU when it broke up.

Irrelevant, what you had was a full scale war and holocaust going on right on the doorstep of the EU and they did nothing about it, they could do nothing about it ( Germany even threatened unilateral military action, they thought the situation so grave). It took Bill Clinton and the military side of the NATO Alliance to act and put a stop to it - I specify the military side of the NATO Alliance as that specifically excluded France from the decision making process - had they been involved then nothing would have been done at all.

The countries there are in the EU now and are democracies. The ethnic tensions are still there but the wars have gone. To what do you ascribe that? Godly intervention??

Nope, financial necessity, they looked towards their western horizons and spotted the EU gravy train and decided to superficially sink their differences and grab some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 05:42 PM

Interesting that all the recently demobbed( within 5 years)service personnel from all the services that I know local are "remainers"
Maybe their life in the modern service has changed attitudes.
Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 06:20 PM

"Do you honestly think that trade between countries would cease overnight? Don't be ridiculous."

No I don't honestly think that trade between countries would cease overnight, which is why I didn't say that trade between countries would cease overnight, so I would be obliged if you didn't ask me not to be ridiculous for saying something I didn't say.😂 Teribus, this is a perfect illustration of why trying to debate with you is a waste of time. On this occasion, let's just invite readers of this thread, if they're mad enough, to read my post and your response and leave it at that. I officially become an OAP tomorrow, so if you annoy me in the next 24 hours I may well respond when I'm a bit pissed, which is when I'm at my best with the bit between what remains of my teeth, so watch it, sonny. 😉

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 16 - 10:53 PM

The impact of EU fisheries law on the Irish fishing industry wouldn't be significantly reduced by the UK leaving the EU. And there is no realistic possibility of Ireland leaving. So it's an irrelevance in that context.
......

One thing that's been skated over in all this is that the stuff about immigration as a reason to get out of the EU is basically a con.

If you examine it, there is no realistic possibility that Brexit would do anything to change things significantly. Norway and Switzerland have both been required to accept the free movement of workers, in order to get access to the free trade with the EU that they need. The same would apply to the UK, which also needs that access.

After the fuss has died down, the same flow of workers will be taking place, whatever the talk about "entry control".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 01:54 AM

Economic turmoil Shaw? What economic turmoil if you don't think that trade will be curtailed?

"I officially become an OAP tomorrow, so if you annoy me in the next 24 hours I may well respond when I'm a bit pissed, which is when I'm at my best with the bit between what remains of my teeth, so watch it, sonny"

Reasoned argument being beyond you, so you resort to threats of drunken threats - good heavens what would the mild mannered Jim Carroll say? He has very definite views on manners and breeding, pity that he himself doesn't live up to them but that is neither here nor there. But in issuing threats you certainly do have some brass-neck giving others advice on how to behave.

All that aside I wish you a happy birthday and many returns of the day, I hope and trust that you have a long, enjoyable and happy retirement.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:21 AM

"Reasoned argument being beyond you,"
You have no intention of stopping this - have you.
Haven't you done enough damage to this forum already?
Maybe it's time somebody reported your behaviour and put a stop to it!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 03:22 AM

Drunken threat? It was a joke! Stop trying to do a Keith on me!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

Steve -- Happy Birthday.

& Welcome to the ranks of the officially aged, young man.


≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

Jim Carroll - 15 Jun 16 - 03:21 AM

But Jom I thought you said that had been done already, or was your previous post just more Carroll "Made-Up-Shit", perfect example of it mind you.

Of course it was a joke Mr Shaw, couldn't resist yankin' the chain - Have a great day.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

Happy Birthday Steve with A European greeting, glücklich Geburtstag, Joyeux anniversaire, •Breithlá Sona etc

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 07:56 AM

"But Jom I thought you said that had been done already"
Only Bobad, and haven't got round to that -decided to wait till his next outburst
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 08:32 AM

A German politics/football cartoon of today:

A photo of chancelor Merkel and minister for economy Gabriel with the following (fake) captions.

Gabriel asks: "Do you think the Brexit will come?"
Merkel (beaming): "At the latest in the quarterfinals"

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jun 16 - 09:24 PM

Though there is no United Kingdom team in the European Cup, I pedantically point out.

Private Eye made the same joke on the front cover of current issue .

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

Delighted to see Neil Garage and Bob the Gob buccaneering on the high seas yesterday. The whole thing is beyond parody, I bet Mr. Cameron is really regretting instigating this whole referendum business, no-one's coming out of it well.

The Tories are imploding in the most spectacular way, Labour has show itself to be utterly lacking in it's ability to promote whatever viewpoint it stands for, and is paying the price for abandoning it's core voters who have all headed off to the right to join the charlatan Farage and his travelling freakshow.

You really have to be impressed. Love the Eye cover!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 09:23 AM

The Labour position is a pretty straightforward and sensible one actually, and it has repeatedly been articulately stated. It is that the EU is far from perfect, badly needs reforms, but not the one Cameron was trying ineffectively to bully other countries to accept.

The only way to do anything effective towards bringing the needed changes about- defending and building on the Social Chapter, and democratising decision making - is to stick in and work together with friends in other countries.

But of course the media prefer to focus on the bloodletting between factions in the Tory party. Stuff from Labour is just not covered. It doesn't fit in with the selected plot, which is a squabble between people on one side saying the EU is the work of the devil, and those who say it's a resounnding success.

As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it. Those who vote for leaving on the basis of promises about that are going to be bitterly let down. They will find they have been victim of a con trick.

The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:09 AM

"The Labour position is ....... that the EU is far from perfect, badly needs reforms ....... The only way to do anything effective towards bringing the needed changes about ......... is to stick in and work together with friends in other countries."

All well and good, but the track record of the EU has shown that to be EU-speak that just kicks the can another mile, or should that be 1.6 kilometres, down the road. The EU will never reform itself it has had more than enough time and way too many chances to do so already. The EU Commissioners (An unelected body) will never relinquish their power, just as they will never actually produce an audited record of their finances. None of the member states have ever been able to change the direction of this juggernaut by working from inside and the plain truth is that we voted to join on the false promise that we were joining a trade block, not some corrupt political scheme to create a United States of Europe.

By the way when it comes down to the "nitty-gritty" this whole referendum actually is:

"a squabble between people on one side saying the EU is the work of the devil, and those who say it's a resounding success."

IN or OUT is what is being decided, not the best way of bringing about change to the EU.

I can remember Tony Blair toddling over to Brussels to barter away a large chunk of the UK rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher and coming back with a reduced UK rebate on the premise that the Common Agricultural Policy was to be revised and gradually dispensed with altogether. We immediately got the reduced rebate while the CAP remained in place and intact exactly as it had been before - because it didn't sit well with France.

As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it.

Do you honestly mean to tell us that being able to say No and being able to turn people round on landing and returning them will not reduce immigration? Tell me Kevin which entity has the longer border the EU or the UK? If we are in the EU anyone making across the borders into the EU and are accepted as asylum seekers in the EU can then quite legally come to the UK. If we are not in the EU then that cannot happen. Same goes for economic migrants, etc. If we are not in the EU we get to say who comes in and we get to say who can stay.

"The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere."

Going that route you will always never have enough and the standard of services will regress and diminish. To reduce the factors you speak of means exporting jobs and pouring money into a massive multi-nation building programme in the countries that the USSR destroyed between 1945 and 1991 on the sole condition that their populations stay put - no freedom of movement in the Warsaw Pact.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 10:38 AM

"As for immigration, there is no way that Brexit will significantly reduce it. Those who vote for leaving on the basis of promises about that are going to be bitterly let down. They will find they have been victim of a con trick.

The way to respond to it is to provide help for communities where services are overloaded by it, and also by working through the EU to reduce the factors that drive people to leave the countries they love to go and work elsewhere."

You've nailed it, McG!

I'm of the opinion that Labour are deliberately keeping a low profile in the hope (expectation?) that the Tory Party will commit hara-kiri during the debate - at the moment that looks a distinct possibility. Please, please, pretty please....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 11:08 AM

Both Norway and Switzerland,, though not in the EU, have had to agree to the same policy on freedom of access and employment
for other EU citizens as other countries. That is required as a condition of access to free trade with the EU.

There is no realistic possibility that the UK - or whatever is left of it when the dust settles and Scotland has probably gone - will be treated differently. That would require every single other country agreeing to that, and they won't. And free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK. We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries..

And of course, once outside the EU the UK has no say whatsoever about any future changes, such as Turkey getting membership with free movement.

The Brexit line is to promise immigration control, and use that to win votes, and it could well be succesful.. But that is based on assumptions about how the EU will act which just don't add up. The immigration promises are just a house of cards. When the people who were taken in wake up and face the truth, the consequences could be frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:16 PM

Labour MP campaigning to stay in shot dead and her companion stabbed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

I don't think she was killed whilst actively campaigning for Remain though! She was or had just been to her surgery meeting constituents. I've seen the FB posts suggesting that the murderer shouted "Britain First" when he killed her which would suggest he was a right wing extremist and Leave supporter. However certainly though it may be why she was killed - that hasn't actually been officially confirmed yet!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 02:30 PM

My condolences to all rational minds.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

Both Norway and Switzerland,, though not in the EU, have had to agree to the same policy on freedom of access and employment
for other EU citizens as other countries. That is required as a condition of access to free trade with the EU.

I take it that you have experience in working in one or other of the two Kevin?

I most certainly would like to see someone, EU citizen, or not, just bimble into either looking for work, residence, or benefits.

In Norway you have to have the job before you travel, and to get the job your employer has to have proved that no Norwegian can do it before you are offered it.

The Norwegian parliament has to approve all new legislation handed down from Brussels by the EU which has "significant new obligations". From the 23,000 EU laws currently in force, the EEA has incorporated around 5,000 (in force) meaning that Norway is subject to roughly 21% of EU laws.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

"There is no realistic possibility that the UK - or whatever is left of it when the dust settles and Scotland has probably gone - will be treated differently. That would require every single other country agreeing to that, and they won't. And free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK. We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries."

The UK is the EU's second largest net contributor after Germany
The UK makes up 12.4% of the population of the EU
Within the EU the UK is Germany's largest customer

The above constitutes negotiating leverage with the country that is the economic driving force of the EU - Germany - they are not renowned for cutting off their noses to spite their face. When push comes to shove pragmatism is more their style.

Within the EU over 80% of Scotland's trade is within the UK.
The UK is a member of the EU, Scotland is not, should the UK decide to leave the EU, then Scotland would have to apply to join - and every single other member would have to agree to that - Off the top of my head I can think of six who would block Scotland for reasons centred about what those countries see as their own best interests.

"free trade with the EU is going to be necessary for the UK"

As we buy more from them than they do from us, and considering the economic state of the EU and the Eurozone, I would suggest that the boot is very much on the other foot.

"We won't be able to set up bilateral free trade with Individual EU countries UK."

Maybe, maybe not, but it does mean that we can set up bilateral trade with other countries that we are at present unable to do due to our EU membership.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 04:07 PM

If I recall correctly Norway's deal with the EU was based on a kind of trial membership. They accepted free movement and other stuff because that was what they would have to accept if they went for full membership. As it turned out they decided not to accept full membership and they may, one day, decide to re-negotiate their deal.

Don't forget folks you now have just one week left to escape the madness of a United States Of Europe. David's and George's careers are in your hands. Vote leave.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:24 PM

"As we buy more from them than they do from us, "
Probably because we haven't got anything to sell any more after the Tories closed down all our industries, d'y' think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 05:55 PM

Really? Shooting politicians, what is this, America? I thought y'all were more civilized than that...

A sad day, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:00 PM

Even if Germany did decide that it was so important to fix up trade with the UK that it was worth the serious costs (it would involve serious risks of further break-up of the EU), it is hard to envisage unamimous agreement by 26 other countries.

It's a gamble, at pretty long odds. If we get out we'll find if I'm right.

Where a local candidate is available and is as capable of doing a job as an immigrant they will in most cases have significant advantages for an employer they should get the job. Where it's a matter of employers employing immigrants because they will work for less, and put up with terrible conditions, that is a scandal that needs to be stamped out. A fair wage and decent working conditions, for any job, needs to be legally required ane enforced which will attract local applicants, and which will have been reached through negotiations with workers and unions.

And that is something which should be added to the Social Charter of the EU. To get that would involve a combined push by allies across Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 16 - 06:35 PM

Well we're in bits here. The murdered MP's mum is a friend of my family member, who saw Jo grow up through her childhood and teen years. She was feisty, passionate and committed and she was in politics for the good she could do, never for herself. Christ, if there's one day I wish I could rewind and start again. Senseless, incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:14 AM

Sincerest condolences to you and all family and friends, sad day indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:48 AM

If Germany feels it advantageous for Germany to make some sort of deal with the UK then Germany will use its economic, financial and political clout within the EU to get exactly what it wants - it always has in the past.

In your posts where you refer to countries such as Norway and Switzerland you talk about them and free movement of labour and access as though they were like the UK, France, Netherlands or Germany - simply put, they are not, they apply their own interpretation of what they see as being free access and it is a great deal more restrictive than you think.

You didn't answer my question as to whether or not you had worked in either of these countries Kevin and were talking from experience. I have not worked in Switzerland but have experience in having worked in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, France and the Netherlands and can tell you from practical experience the differences of working in each.

Where is it a matter of employers employing immigrants because they will work for less, and put up with terrible conditions? As far as the "Remain" campaign tell us the UK needs immigrants because our own population are not prepared to do certain jobs and we are daft enough to support our selective unemployed on benefits until something more acceptable to them comes along, there are a few countries on that list above where after a limited time that just would not be allowed to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:17 AM

So sorry Steve. Such an incomprehensible waste of a wonderful human life. I was very upset when I heard, especially for her husband and two children.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 04:55 AM

" support our selective unemployed on benefits "
Tory crap
Unemployment benefit
National minimum wage
Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.
Sure, we can all leave our families, "get on our bikes" maybe, a was once suggested - down to where the work is to find that the cost of accommodation is so prohibitive that it is impossible to find anywhere to live - try looking at London prices.
Having dismantled British industry, this mob now seek to blame the victims of that policy for the consequences.
High unemployment figures are one of the direct cause of driving down wage levels - I worked out from conversations I had in Liverpool recently that what some self-employed electricians were charging to rewire a house is slightly above the cost of buying the materials - crazy!!
Of course employers are hiring the cheapest where they are able - they would be mad not to - I've been told often enough that business is not based on sentiment.
Rather strange watching pro- Brexits being interviewed and announcing passionately that they want their "independence" back.
What independence?
In the present situation, the only independence Britain can aspire to today is the right to choose who to be dependent on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:11 AM

" support our selective unemployed on benefits "
Tory crap
Unemployment benefit
National minimum wage
Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.
Sure, we can all leave our families, "get on our bikes" maybe, a was once suggested - down to where the work is to find that the cost of accommodation is so prohibitive that it is impossible to find anywhere to live - try looking at London prices.
Having dismantled British industry, this mob now seek to blame the victims of that policy for the consequences.
High unemployment figures are one of the direct cause of driving down wage levels - I worked out from conversations I had in Liverpool recently that what some self-employed electricians were charging to rewire a house is slightly above the cost of buying the materials - crazy!!
Of course employers are hiring the cheapest where they are able - they would be mad not to - I've been told often enough that business is not based on sentiment.
Rather strange watching pro- Brexits being interviewed and announcing passionately that they want their "independence" back.
What independence?
In the present situation, the only independence Britain can aspire to today is the right to choose who to be dependent on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM

Anybody who takes a job for less than they can get by entitlement is neglecting in their duty to their family.

And that is why our welfare costs will continue to rise and yet will always lag and never be enough.

The person who follows that advice above will always find themselves marked down when applying for any job when compared to someone who ignored it, as prospective employers will always look at working track record and someone who has sat on their fat arse for years because they got more on benefits and "entitlements" loses out to someone who chose to work instead - why? - demonstration of work ethic.

In the places MGOH mentioned you only get so long on benefits then you get compulsory retraining and you then have a choice take the job offered or take drastically reduced benefits.

The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU. Our unemployment figures are low compared to the EU. Our currency is depressingly strong compared to the Euro and other European Currencies. Oh dear what a terrible state we are in - hell as like.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 AM

The campaign reached a low point yesterday with the unveiling of Farage's anti-immigration poster, which showed a huge queue, not of immigrants trying to enter the UK, as implied, but a line of refugees, mostly black, who were nowhere near a UK border. In the unveiling ceremony, Nigel is standing right in front of it. Bloody racist scumbag.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:57 AM

"And that is why our welfare costs will continue to rise and yet will always lag and never be enough."
So you are saying that we should abandon feeding our family because the Government can't get its act together - nice to know.
I paid taxes all my working life, part of which was to cover the eventuality of my becoming employed - it seems it was really for politicians duck palaces.
"Benefits are no more than insurance payouts.
Any system that is unable to provide work on a major scale is not fit for purpose.
"The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU"
The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry, under no circumstances can any dependent economy be described as "doing well".
The rising and accelerating gap between rich and poor is an indication of who is benefiting from that "doing well".
Few, if any working people choose to be out of work deliberately, just as any worker who withdraws his Labour willingly chooses to go on strike - both myths of the 'haves'.
Nice to have it in writing that we must put the interested of the bankers before that of our families though
Tories - an endless source of entertainment!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

I suppose you know that putting the interests of the State over that of the people is the classic definition of 'fascism'?
Jim Carrll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:31 AM

"I suppose you know that putting the interests of the State over that of the people is the classic definition of 'fascism'?"
Jim Carroll

Tell me Jim did Lenin, Stalin and Mao know that?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:52 AM

"The rising and accelerating gap between rich and poor is an indication of who is benefiting from that "doing well".

Well according to the BBC, and I see no reason for them to lie, the world economy doubled in the last quarter century. The number of those considered to be living in "poverty" halved, and the numbers of people considered to be "middle-class" doubled. These are figures and statistics they broadcast world wide and I do not believe that they were challenged.

Now let us take a look as those who are considered rich:

Top 50 in the world does not include one Briton and no member of the aristocracy.

Top 25 in the UK are largely foreign and only two members of the aristocracy appear. The rest appear to be self-made men, or are the sons of self-made men. Tell me Jim do you begrudge people the fruits of their labours? If so can you define the point at which you draw the line.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM

"Tell me Jim did Lenin, Stalin and Mao know that?"
You tell me - you obviously didn't, but you do now
Blood nonsense to put the interests of an avaricious and corrupt state before that of your family - what eejit though that one up?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 09:29 AM

If a joba wages and conditions are not good enough to attract people native to the country they are not good enough. They need to be changed so that they are seen as acceptable to local people. After all, that is what would have to happen if the immigrants who might do the jobs were not allowed.

Simpler to change the wages and conditions. Same result achieved in a way that is perfectly acceptable within EU rules.

No, I haven't worked in Norway. I would suspect that the governmments and unions in those countries will have imposed those kind of requirements on employers.
.............

The tragedy of Jo Cox's killing should cause a bit of sobering up in the increasingly nasty tone of this referendum campaign.

I can't recall anything like the announcement that thhe Tories won't be putting up a candidate in the by election to choose a successor to her as MP.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

"The UK economy is performing rather well compared to the EU. Our unemployment figures are low compared to the EU. Our currency is depressingly strong compared to the Euro and other European Currencies. Oh dear what a terrible state we are in - hell as like."

Great reasons for maintaining the status quo and remaining in the EU

Cant remember who wrote that any suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM

The out campaign has increasingly become an appeal to ignorance and fear of foreigners. A cheap-shot, easy way of pandering to prejudice. It's bloody appalling, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM

I see that both the Green Party and UKIP have said they won't be putting up candidates either in the election for Jo Cox's replacement..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

Jim,
The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry, under no circumstances can any dependent economy be described as "doing well".
Wrong again Jim!
"Contrary to common belief, UK manufacturing is strong with the UK currently the 11th largest manufacturing nation in the world. "
http://www.themanufacturer.com/uk-manufacturing-statistics/

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 10:57 AM

Yep, Keith, keep reading your link: less than 10% of jobs in this country are in manufacturing, down from 25% pre-Thatcher. Only the eleventh largest manufacturer but the fifth largest economy, with productivity stubbornly flat (showing that the in-work statistics are fraudulent). You're very good at telling less than half the tale, Keith, and we always have to check every single thing you say.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:22 AM

Steve, Jim said "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry,"
That was wrong.
Do you criticise him for that wildly inaccurate and misleading statement?
No. Why not?

I quoted and quoted accurately Steve.
You did not.
Here are some more actual quotes from the same piece.

"Overall, the UK's industrial sector has increased by 1.4% a year since 1948, according to a recent report from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The ONS attributes the sustained growth to a better quality, more skilled workforce; a shift in production from low to high productivity goods; improvements in automation and ICT; increased investment in R&D, and a more integrated global economy."

"Although the contribution of manufacturing to GDP has declined on paper, many of the services provided to manufacturers which would have once been considered part of manufacturing, such as catering; cleaning; building services, security and so on, are now allocated into different areas of the economy.

However, those contributions are directly reliant on manufacturing for continued business and could actually be considered as a part of manufacturing's GDP input. As such, many are calling for the true value of manufacturing to be recognised, a move which would see the widely cited figure of 10% of GVA almost doubling to 19%."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

"Wrong again Jim!"
Course I am Keith
#"The Manufacturer" - you have to be joking.
This is a industrialists magazine based on telling you what a good job they are doing - a 'promo' - what else are they going to tell us?
It headlines the car industry - Britain's role in the Car industry is to assemble parts made elsewhere - you may call that "manufacturing" if you wish.
Same with electonics - assembling components made (often very shoddily) in some of the poorest parts of the world for some of the worst wages and under horrific conditions.
We are reminded where our textiles come from every time a death=trap of a factory falls down burying hundreds of workers who were exiting on survival rate wages.
Our manufacturing industries are gone, as are the skills that ran them.
I have worked with skilled craftsmen, boilermakers, riveters, lathe turners, mold-makers....... men who had skills that would blind you - gone.
I sent years learning to wind armatures for electric motors,from hand drills to huge generators - doubt if there are any left now.
It would be fine if the "progress" that has been made benefited us all, but, as society is rin for profit which benefits a tiny, privileged minority - result - lengthening dole queues , homelessness, a destabalised population and a massive gap between having and doing without.
The maufacturer - give us a break!
<
a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2047860/British-car-industry-Why-none.html">Cars
STEEL
Shiipping
Textiles
Slow Death of British Industry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM

Car industry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM

Jim,
This is a industrialists magazine based on telling you what a good job they are doing

It is the insider journal reporting on the actual state of manufacturing.
Here is the Financial Times in full agreement,
"Chris Williamson, chief economist at Markit, the data company that conducts surveys of manufacturing activity around the world, agreed: "We don't see [the UK] as being unusually weak in recent years." In 2014, he said, Britain was one of the best-performing nations in terms of manufacturing activity's rate of expansion, before — like the US — sliding down the rankings."

"Yet Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world. There are success stories to go with the doom and gloom, including the renaissance in Britain's automobile industry and its continued excellence in aerospace."
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ff19bb16-c4fa-11e5-b3b1-7b2481276e45.html#axzz4BqzDkjQ1

Steve, we are also, as you said, the 7th biggest economy.
The difference is due to our disproportionately large economic sector.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:33 PM

Jim, your links relevant to manufacturing are years out of date.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 12:55 PM

"You quoted and quoted accurately and I did not," eh?

I did not quote at all. You did what the bible-bashers do when they lift bits out of scripture to prove their non-points - you took the bits that fitted your agenda. What I said was a riposte to that. Behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM

"Declined on paper"...

Have you ever visited a former hub of manufacturing industry? Acres of devastation. And not just heavy industry. In Harlow where there was all kinds of light industry in industrial areas it's all warehouses and warehouse stores staffed by a couple of lonely assistants on the pay desk.

Much of what is currently still called manufacturing is in fact assembly work, with the parts all manufactured in other parts of the world.

Change happens. Britain is not a manufacturing country in the sense it was, andd that's not wholly a bad thing. But the way iit has been done has been in a way that maximised the harm done to the communities dependant on the industries that have gone, and largely shrugged off the need to make sure that thhere were still real and dignified jobs for the people of those communities.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:36 PM

That's right. And at the same time as the ideological dismantling of manufacturing industry was going on, regardless of the disastrous effects on communities (in non-Tory areas), the Tories lifted almost all regulation from the banks and other financial institutions. The biggest failure of New Labour was the failure to restore that regulation. Of course, the yanks were at it too, and we do what they do, don't we, Tony Blair? Some sovereignty that we want back! We don't train enough young people in the skills we need, so we need immigration in order to get skilled workers. Oh yes, we do have an "apprenticeship scheme" which you'd better be on otherwise you can forget jobseekers. You'll be paid about half the minimum wage and there will be next to no supervision of employers who are supposed to be training these youngsters. To be fair, some take their responsibilities seriously, but to others it's cheap labour, floor sweepers and tea-makers.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM

I am shocked that so many people on the left think that supporting european multi national capitalism is better than supporting non european multi national capitalism.
NEXT, let me remind you that when ireland voted against the lisbon treaty they were made to vote again, if the UK votes to leave, they will not be allowed to, they will be offered lots of concessions and they will take them and stay., if they do not they will be made to vote again, the reason will be in the interests of democracy[ [or the very wealthy]the majority was not great enough.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:02 PM

Steve,
I did not quote at all.

How could you? It all substantiated my post!

you took the bits that fitted your agenda.

Completely untrue!
The whole piece was up-beat and my brief quote was entirely representative.
Your accusation was false.

Also this,
You're very good at telling less than half the tale, Keith, and we always have to check every single thing you say.

I keep asking for examples of misleading quotes but you never produce any because you can't.
False personal attacks because you can not challenge what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

"Jim, your links relevant to manufacturing are years out of date."
Get stuffed Keith - when those industries die they diew - when the jobs are gone they're gone.
My links range from 1999 to 2016 across the board
The earliest is Textiles (1999) are you seriously suggesting that a new textile industry has miraculously emerged from the ashes phoenix-like?
Of all the industries, we know that our clothing comes almost exclusively from abroad.
Steel - 2016 the rest 2013 and 2011
It was announced ten years ago that our shipping industry had passed the point of no return
Are we all of a sudden producing car components instead of assembling them?
Not only do the industries die, but the jobs, the skills, the experience, the knowledge - and the loyalty that went into those industries dies with them - forever - you're quite likely to find a skilled worker, or administrator from these former industries serving behind a till in Sainsburys.
Our industries have been killed of for profit - not for the well-being of us all, but to make the wealthy few more wealthy
I couldn't open your last link by the way, not a subscriber to the Fanancial Times, but teh heading I could access told it as it is UK manufacturing retains bright spots despite overall gloom
Bright SPOTs indicate measles, not healthy industry -eexactly what has changed recently to show we are on a roll industial-wise.
It is predicted that we are probably heading for another recession as the economy is throwing its lot in with property again - that caused the last crash.
Why do you do this?
You defend and excuse everything that's shitty, wrong, evil, unfair and unjust in this world on principle - even to the point of defending mass-murder and State Terrorism.
What kind of person does that?
You are not inteseted in facts - you are only interested in proving taht you are right and everybody else is wrong.
And you call me obsessive.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 02:26 PM

Jim, access is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions.

You said, "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry,"

The FT states,
" "We don't see [the UK] as being unusually weak in recent years." In 2014, he said, Britain was one of the best-performing nations in terms of manufacturing activity's rate of expansion,"

and,
"Yet Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world."

So, your statement is proved wrong.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:16 PM

This is an FT article on the same subject
If anyone who has read the whole article agrees that the cherry picking and assessment in the post of 2:26 is any way reflected in the article id be very surprised

Bright Spots

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:31 PM

I love the variety of posts herein to date. As a very young American I recall a family visit to Great Britain in 1969. It was one of the last years of Pounds Shillings and Farthings and Sixpences. Luckily I was good at math. I passed through London two years later and noticed that a New Penny was worth 2.4 pence but many prices were the same, an automatic 140% price boost.
The other thing I recall, though without any deep understanding, was there was a lot of talk about a U.S.E. United States of Europe. The average adult of the 60s had ready memories of WWII and solid perceptions of the Soviet Threat.

It's not my vote, but I've often thought over the unfairness and organized imbecility and prejudices latent in Congress, The United Nations, Brussels, and the old saying comes back to me:

"Yes the game is rigged. But it's the only game in town."

So I like Richard Bridge's post of 09 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM with Tobias Kliem's arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:50 PM

"ccess is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions."
Not interested
What you quoted was expansionism based on decades of shrinkage - a statement relative to an already terminally sick industrial base. sick industry
I asked
Do we suddenly have a textile industry again - or a steel industry, or a shipping industry, - have the mines suddenly reopened again - are we suddenly manufacturing components or car parts instead of just fitting them together?
If we have a healthy industry, just what does it comprise?
What do we manufacture
The world is now in permanent recession - who are we better than?
We have no industries - we have permanent mass unemployment, the North of England is an unemployment black-spot since Maggie bulldozed it flat
Workers are no longer spinners, or weavers or miners or shipbuilders, or electricians or plumbers... or whatever we used to be - we are, by law, merely workers who are forced by Governmet edict to take whatever job we are offered whhether is suits our health, out family life, or financial situation or our personal preferences.
If I needed a job and could not find one I am trained for, I would be forced to stand at the Argos counter passing parcels to customers, or stacking shelves at Sainsburys or sweeping the streets - that is how things stand now if I am to draw on an insurance policy I paid into all of my working life.
Can't remember who invented the phrase "wage slave", but that is what all British people are now - obliged by law to accept any job w are offered.
"So, your statement is proved wrong."
And that sums up perfectly why you are what you are and not worth bothering with. It's not about exchanging ides, it's about winning
I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson over the last few months but no here we are again.
Just go away Keith - you foul up every thread you touch
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 03:52 PM

"ccess is free. You just have to answer a couple of questions."
Not interested
What you quoted was expansionism based on decades of shrinkage - a statement relative to an already terminally sick industrial base. sick industry
I asked
Do we suddenly have a textile industry again - or a steel industry, or a shipping industry, - have the mines suddenly reopened again - are we suddenly manufacturing components or car parts instead of just fitting them together?
If we have a healthy industry, just what does it comprise?
What do we manufacture
The world is now in permanent recession - who are we better than and how well are they doing?
We have no industries - we have permanent mass unemployment, the North of England is an unemployment black-spot since Maggie bulldozed it flat
Workers are no longer spinners, or weavers or miners or shipbuilders, or electricians or plumbers... or whatever we used to be - we are, by law, merely workers who are forced by Governmet edict to take whatever job we are offered whhether is suits our health, out family life, or financial situation or our personal preferences.
If I needed a job and could not find one I am trained for, I would be forced to stand at the Argos counter passing parcels to customers, or stacking shelves at Sainsburys or sweeping the streets - that is how things stand now if I am to draw on an insurance policy I paid into all of my working life.
Can't remember who invented the phrase "wage slave", but that is what all British people are now - obliged by law to accept any job w are offered.
"So, your statement is proved wrong."
And that sums up perfectly why you are what you are and not worth bothering with. It's not about exchanging ides, it's about winning
I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson over the last few months but no here we are again.
Just go away Keith - you foul up every thread you touch
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:32 PM

Paying £250 per ton for coal when our competitors were paying around £8 per ton made our electricity rather expensive for our heavy industries. In the early days we were quite good at nuclear power but that got ditched as we had to have inefficient, polluting, coal fired power stations didn't we.

We made steel that nobody wanted as buyers could get perfectly suitable steel cheaper elsewhere. Quite good at high grade specialist materials though - only trouble with that is that there is no mass market for it.

The mass market British car industry compelled to use steel produced by British Steel that had been stockpiled for ages and pay the sky-high price for electricity managed to build cars that you could hear rusting and corroding away at fifty paces that nobody wanted, the Morris Marina; the Austin Allegro; the Hillman Imp; the Avenger - the list of poor quality mediocre products is endless. Quite good at high end luxury cars though - unfortunately no mass market for those either.

Shipping? Have a look at the size of the ships required by the world's customers - nowhere in the UK to build them plus pay the inflated costs for British steel and British power.

Textiles? Unit labour costs far too high in the UK, manufacturing costs too high in the UK. No wonder manufacturing moved abroad. But again the high-end top quality stuff we still do fairly well - but how many people are prepared to pay £1,600 for a scarf.

Then right across the board you had management that was hamstrung and militant and irresponsible trades unions more focused on their political ambitions than in looking after their members and the industries they were involved in.

Things really went ever so well for Britain, the British people and British Industry in the 1970s, we just didn't know what to do with all the money our heavy industries were making - well at least some on this forum believe that fairy tale, others know the truth, which explains why in 1979 we had a General Election, changed the Government and rang the changes that needed to be made before the country was totally ruined.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 07:08 PM

Am I allowed to be flippant for just a sec? Your mention of Morris Marinas reminded me of a day in around 1980 when my next-door neighbour in Loughton, where we lived at the time (he was called Keith, as it happens), had proudly taken delivery of his brand-new firm's car, a Morris Marina. As we stood there billing and cooing over the shiny beast that had just 25 miles on the clock, my cursory inspection revealed rust in most of the seams. I didn't have the heart to deflate him, though over the next two years I watched that car turn into a rusty bucket. He didn't keep it for long!

Anyone remember Maggie Thatcher doing the Great British big sell for the then brand-new Austin Maestro? I think the newsclip had her getting into one outside Number Ten. I had one of those for eighteen miserable months. It was the worst car to drive in Christendom (I could write a book), and, no matter how carefully you drove the bugger, 26 to the gallon was as good as it got. Amazing when you consider how light it was, what with all that rust dropping off it!

Back to grimness now, chaps...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jun 16 - 08:48 PM

Maybe for once we could treat the politicians as role models, and calm down and give the campaign arguments a rest for a day or so, especially the hostile stuff, as an expression of respect for Jo Cox, who seems to have been a pretty decent person, and the kind of MP we'd all like to have.

It seems pretty likely that, whatever other things in the killer's history might have contributed to his actions, what actually triggered this will have been the heat building up around the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

"Paying £250 per ton for coal when our competitors"
Thank you for confirming that our major industries have been deliberately and systematically destroyed and have been for profit - now please go and tell your friend.
No country that relies totally on imports can be sustainable, particularly in a crisis.
The quality of British goods was unmatchable throughout the world despite your having described them as "crap" (it takes a true patriot to describe British Steel as "crap").
Buying cheap for the working person is a false economy, the inferior quality of the materials means that they no longer have the usage-life and have to be replaced in a shorter time - fine for the profiteer, more costly for the user.
Blaming British Labour costs is typical Tory double-speak - at no time in British history has the working person been overpaid - Tory double-speak.   
Try fly-by-night profiteering, under-investment, lack on incentive on the part of the worker and simple mismanagement.
Profit has completely elbowed out national well-being and planning for Britain's future - the quick buck and lets blame the workers has replaced planning for the future - hence the hand-to-mouth policies which have lessened the values of peoples' lives.
Not only have the British people as a whole suffered directly from these policies, but the slave-like conditions the workers who produce the foreign goods we buy have to endure has destabalised the entire planet - Britain has now become and investor in neo-slavery.
The results of this have been a massive refugee crisis, destabaliing national upheavals which have been capitalised on by religious nutters, creating an international terrorism crisis, the necessity to prop up despots to keep the oil flowing........
This system is no longer fit for purpose - an administration which should serve all the people, now exclusively serves only the most wealthy and the most acquisitively predatory with a nod to national well-being only at election time.
If the economy is more profitable, the British citizen is not benefiting from that profitability - proven beyond dispute by the accelerating gap between rich and poor, and the eroding away of the rights of ordinary people who have never had a sufficient say in their working lives, but now have none whatever - a voice through the unions, security of employment, a choice in what we spend our lives doing, security of tenure..... gone within the last thirty years.
The world is facing a new FINANCIAL CRISIS and things are due to get worse - all the Little Englander walls are not going to exacerbate that situation - at a time we need friends, we are being asked to adopt an "I want to be alone" isolationist policy in the best Greta Garbo tradition in order to win back an independence which was long sold before we became part of the E.U.
All the workers' fault and the immigrants, of course (as claimed by the claimed by the sewer level advertising now reached by Ukip and Teribus the Tory.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:46 AM

Good piece in The Spectator:

Out - and into the world

"Since 1975 the EU has mutated in exactly the way we then feared and now resembles nothing so much as the Habsburg Empire in its dying days. A bloated bureaucracy that has outgrown all usefulness. A parliament that represents many nations, but with no democratic legitimacy."

"Michael Gove revealed how, as a cabinet member, he regularly finds himself having to process edicts, rules and regulations that have been framed at European level. Laws that no one in Britain had asked for, and which no one elected to the House of Commons has the power to change. What we refer to as British government is increasingly no such thing. It involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove."

Simple comment on Carroll's latest cliché riddled rant full of empty "working class warrior" rhetoric - IF {BIG IF at that} everything you say there is true, I do not doubt for a second that YOU are idiot enough to believe it, care to tell us all why hundreds of thousands of people have flocked to THIS country rather than settle in the idyll that is Europe?

23rd June 2016 hopefully the day that Great Britain votes to leave the EU - then you will see how amenable to change the EU becomes.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 03:47 AM

Jim, I am amazed that you are still arguing the point.
You said, "The UK economy is based on having no manufacturing industry," but in fact "Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)

Your statement was wrong, I was right to challenge it, and Steve was wrong to attack me for it.
End of.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM

Jim Carroll - 18 Jun 16 - 02:56 AM

Our major industries Jim were subsidised to the hilt – illegal under EEC laws and directives – once the subsidies stopped those industries folded.

The quality of British goods was unmatchable throughout the world

IF that was true I would love to hear the explanation as to why nobody bought those goods.

" Buying cheap for the working person is a false economy,

Matter of individual choice, which can hardly be blamed on Government or manufacturers direction.

Blaming British Labour costs is typical Tory double-speak - at no time in British history has the working person been overpaid - Tory double-speak.

If the high cost of labour was not an issue then jobs would not have gone overseas. If irresponsible action by trades unions hadn't been so rife in the 1960s and 1970s then a reputation for dependability and ability to meet contractual deadlines would have enhanced British industry.

To keep an industry and companies within that industry competitive change is constantly required. Everything must be in balance. Strikes affect the ability to meet commitments and raise unit costs paying for those increased costs and paying contractual penalties reduces profit, which in turn adversely affects the ability of companies to carry out any investment programmes.

Profit has completely elbowed out national well-being and planning for Britain's future

It would appear that "profit" to you is a dirty word – Profit in any business is essential for there to be a healthy economy, for there to be "national well-being" and for the nation to have any sort of future.

Out – And into the World

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 04:30 AM

"Jim, I am amazed that you are still arguing the point."
And I am amazed you are still clinging on to tor obviously false statement when your mate has just cut the legs from under you.
If Britain has an industrial base you would show where it has and not whom you claim has said it has - if we have an industial base, what it it made up of - not steel, no ships, not textiles, not cars, not coal - your mate has just told us that they can't compete - pretty much the same as "Irish hatred" - it's there but I won't tell you what it is.
I am also amazed that your mate should produce an excellent quote which totally undermines his and your whole approach to Britain to prove something I have never suggested.
I don't believe Europe to be a panacea for our problems - I don't trust its purpose or its politics, but in thh present situation, it is infinitely preferable to the immediate alternative of accelerating unemployment with nowhere to go.
I make no apologies for supporting the interests of the people as a whole to those of a greedy, predatory and nationally destructive bunch of vultures - but we all have our heroes.
As I said, tying the will of the pople to the interests of the State, especially one that is firmly tied in with profiteering big business, is fascism, pure and simple - not a system I put put my vote in the box for (not that you get to vote for such a monstrous idea anyway - contradiction in terms)
I am not surprised that Teribus continues his abusively childish behaviour - a sure sign of someone with no confidence in his own ideas so he feels he needs to bully and bluster to get them across.
You really shouldn't be surprised when people attack you Keith - your behaviour more than merits it and you certainly aren't averse too attacking others when it suts you - "glass houses" - remember?.
Yours,
Jim Carroll the "obsessive" "Muppet", "igonramus" "anti-Bristish" "antisemitic" "Leftie......

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:36 AM

Jim to have an industrial base or a manufacturing base does not necessarily mean that it has to involve the heavy industries on the scale you seem to imagine.

I believe now that we have the fifth largest economy in the world according to five different surveys. Keith A's information is normally correct and he does provide real sources which are verifiable so if he provides sources {The Financial Times} that says "Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." Then who am I to say that they have got it wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM

"I don't believe Europe to be a panacea for our problems" - Jim Carroll

Really Jim? You are on record as saying the opposite with regard to Ireland, you couldn't praise the EU highly enough in fact. I'm paraphrasing but the foundation of Ireland's success was the EU IIRC.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:25 AM

"You are on record as saying the opposite with regard to Ireland, you couldn't praise the EU highly enough in fact."
No I am not - that is simply untrue - bu you are quite at liberty to prove me wrong.
I said Ireland did well out of Europe - I also said that Europe shat all over Greece.
I said I had opposed the EU and not voted for it in the British referendum.
My support for remaining in the EU has always bee a question of the best on offer in the present circumstances, particularly as regards employment - nothing more.
" in fact. I'm paraphrasing"
In fact you are making it up by being dishonesty manipulative in what I have said.
As far as I am concerned, the E.U. is a gathering of capitalist nations - we live under capitalism so we may as well take the best of what's on offer.
"I believe now that we have the fifth largest economy in the world according to five different surveys.
To have a necessary industrial base it needs to have large industries - we had plenty once till Mad Maggie deliberately destroyed them for profit.
You have always agreed that Britain not only has no industry but it doesn't deserve one as our products were crap and our workers lazy.
We can't exist as an industrial nation on cottage industries and souvenirs.
Out industries are based on imported components - what we sell has been produced elsewhere.
Suits the already bloatedly opulent, screws the rest of us.
We have no manufacturing industy and no nation can successfully survibe by having to relay on others.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:42 AM

Jim,
We have no manufacturing industy

You have said it again even though you know it is shite!

"Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM

"You have said it again even though you know it is shite!"
Care to examine this PIE CHART
%39 os Britain's exports are of money - finances.
%25 are of unspecified "other businesses
%13 is insurance
%1 is unspecified goods - cars - assembled in Britain
%4 chemicals
%4 transportation
%2 personal and cultural recreation
%2 Communications
%6 Pharmesuticals
None of these can be considered British manufacturing industries.
As I said - Britain has no idustrial base
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:14 AM

You said, "We have no manufacturing industry"

That is shite!

"Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM

Don't you ever call me obsessive again - you have the facts, the act you can only respond by repeating something that doesn't relate to the reality of those facts is an indication that there is somewing seriously wrong with you.Go away and "win" something

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:13 AM

The pie chart is about exports, not manufacturing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM

"The pie chart is about exports, not manufacturing."
And my point is about having a manufacturing industry to export.
None of the industries which once formed the basis of our economy are viable - we rely on importing everything we need - an appalling state for a country with Britain's history to be in.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 11:23 AM

And my point is about having a manufacturing industry to export.

That is not what you stated.
You said, "We have no manufacturing industry"

That is shite!

"Britain is still easily one of the 10 biggest manufacturing nations in the world." (FT)

So we do have manufacturing industry, and your statement was wrong.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 05:59 PM

Video that's Anti Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:22 PM

"an appalling state for a country with Britain's history to be in."

Is that the Britain that you constantly disparage and denigrate?

The 25% attributed to "other businesses" is manufacturing - same source different article on his blog. I take it that you didn't reference that as it didn't suit your purposes.

One of the reasons that Great Britain has been as successful as t has been is because it is prepared to adapt and does not attempt to live in the past as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:26 PM

For a sane and dispassionate assessment of the wilder claims of the "Brexit" brigade, especially with regard to the bogus claims of our weekly contribution to the EU, I recommend today's special edition of More Or Less on Radio 4, on this morning, available on iPlayer.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 06:52 PM

I wish non UK residents would not just sound off without correct and fuller information.

The UK gets many many benefits from being part of a peaceful confederation. Said benefits include environmental protection, workers rights, and free medical care for UK citizens in Europe. Not to mention human rights.
All of those things will be rolled back or dimished. UK's own government is both a monarchy and a kind of elected dictatorship without the checks and balances of recent properly constitutional polities.

The UK has more non-EU immigrants than EU ones. WIthout immigrant labour, the health service and care homes for the very old would be even unsustainable.

If people perceive pressure on services and resources, that is because of a conservative government's failure to invest in the infrastructure for health, education, and transport because of an ideology of austerity that coexists with a drastic increase in social inequality and uneven distribution of wages.

The small landmass of Europe had one of the bloodiest more war-ridden histories of any corner of the earth for many centuries. Now it is unthinkable to imagine armed conflict between EU states.

The UK has not lost sovereignty. It can vote on EU legislation and has opted out of a large number of provisions. If it leaves the EU but wishes certain kinds of trade agreement, it will still have to pay in and accept other provisions, but without any chance to negotiate them. Just look at Norway.

US-ians would be shocked by many aspects of non-democracy in this constitutional monarchy. The UK does not have a democracy. It has monarch and a plutocratic/kleptocratic system for protecting the power of the rich.

And now the media his been rife with toxic hate-stories fomenting division and hatred. And lies. This is one of the most prosperous countries in the world. There should be enough for all if it were divided more equally. People enjoy free health care and a standard of material comfort unimaginable a century ago. And yet they feel that there is not enough to go around. That hatred led to tragedy a few days ago.

No: getting out will not lead to freedom or prosperity. It will remove some of the few
checks that help peace, human rights, social justice and other humane values and lead to untrammelled progress towards an ideology of cuts, austerity, profits for the rich, selling off of public assets, zenophobia, racism and worse. As many have already pointed out, the leave-campaign and UKIP are drumming up sentinements reminiscent of 1930s Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:20 PM

Well said. As for those charlatans who claim that the EU is "undemocratic," I should like to point out that this referendum couldn't be more undemocratic if it tried. Tens of millions of people with little or no knowledge of our economy, let alone of our relationships within the EU, are being asked to vote yes or no on an issue so complex that it foxes every economist I've listened to, yet the people are being bombarded with populist and simplistic arguments about immigration, pandering, quite deliberately, to the lowest racist instincts of as many people as possible. That is a subversion of democracy, propagated by a bunch of hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM

From your post peregrine I take it that you are not a UK resident and posted what you did from complete and utter ignorance.

Oddly enough we actually managed to survive on our own for over a thousand years before it became part of what the British electorate thought was a trading partnership.

If Britain does not have a democracy then there are many countries in trouble as it was upon the British model that their systems were formed.

Since the end of the Second World War Britain has been under Labour Governments for as long as it has been under Conservative Governments, so do not for one second attempt to land all the country's ills on the shoulders of one political party - it doesn't wash.

Talking of non-democracy care to tell us who is responsible for introducing legislation in the EU? - Rhetorical question - It is the EU Commission, a group of unelected officials - EU legislation "involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove."

Norway complies with less than 20% of all EU legislation and it's Parliament has the final say on whatever it does accept from Brussels. Norway does pay into the EU's coffers but Norway also makes a profit from the EU.

"The small landmass of Europe had one of the bloodiest more war-ridden histories of any corner of the earth for many centuries"

Really peregrina? The basis for that statement is what exactly. Care to tell us about wars on other continents over the same period or are you trying to tell us that elsewhere in the world was all sweetness and light, remembering of course that Genghis Khan eliminated the entire population of Afghanistan when he invaded. That Shaka raided and slaughtered subservient tribes each year in southern Africa enslaving those he did not kill. Various states in what is now known as India were almost permanently at war with one another. Or were you not aware of those facts peregrina?

"getting out will not lead to freedom or prosperity. It will remove some of the few
checks that help peace, human rights, social justice and other humane values and lead to untrammelled progress towards an ideology of cuts, austerity, profits for the rich, selling off of public assets, zenophobia, racism and worse."

Of course it will peregrine, the very second we vote to leave children will be forced up chimneys and slavery will be reintroduced. The profits you witter on about pay peoples wages and secure their employment, they ensure that workers pension funds are able to secure the old in their retirement. Of course we could always learn and follow the example of the "workers paradise" that was the Soviet Union. Now oddly enough I do not see hundreds of thousands lined up on the borders of Russia begging to be allowed in - care to tell us why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:57 PM

Well, the UK has been outvoted on 58 issues in the last fourteen years but has agreed on over two and a half thousand issues. Most of those 58 issues have hardly been life-threatening. Pretty good for a club now with 28 member states. The basis of peregrina's statement on wars is bloody obvious. The two biggest wars of all time by a country mile were between European states, at least at their outsets, and the Common Market's forerunner was set up with the express aim of preventing such conflicts in the future. Irrelevant bluster about unrelated wars elsewhere does not dilute that point. And you fail to inform us that Norway must comply with rules on free movement of people, the numero uno campaigning gambit of the racist "out" campIgn. As for workers' pension funds, we have one of the worst state pension provisions in Europe and we have arseholes like Philip Green sucking money out of pension funds. Nothing to do with the EU one way or the other. As for unelected officials, you appear to be resoundingly silent about the half-dead, the unelected party lackeys and the men in frocks who infest the Lords. Last I heard, they were heavily involved in making our laws...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:33 AM

Thank you Steve Shaw.

Teribus, the tone and content of your message exemplify precisely the kind of toxic discourse of contempt and partial truths and justification of inhumanity that can bring such terrifying consequences.

My long reply was just swallowed up by a technical error, reminding me that I can look for serenity and try to do some good things nearby instead of choosing to tilt at windmills.

I will only say: children are taught to share toys and talk instead of hitting. It's a hard lesson. Europe is now one of the richest areas of the globe. yet in the UK, the poor are demonized, food bank use is going up, while executives get pay rises too large to spend on necessities in several lifetimes. Fear of foriegners, refugees, and of redistribution fuel the brexit campaign.
We should be ashamed to dehumanize people in need and people fleeing desperate conditions that would make us flee too. Turning victims into targets of fear and hate.

Before people complain of loss of sovereignty, they could do well to look at the grave flaws in the British system: no proportional representation, supposed mandates railroaded through by a governmet elected with a tiny majority and chosen by far less than half the population, and so on.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 04:59 AM

But this 'gravely flawed' British system is the one repeatedly chosen democratically by the British people in several surveys — and an actual honest·2·god referendum in 2011, in which proposals for your beloved proportional representation were thoroughly and incontrovertibly defeated. Those like peregrina & Steve just adore democracy, don't they -- always provided that the judgment of the δεμος just happens to come down in approval of the sort of system they'd prefer. When it doesn't [as, I reiterate, only 5 years ago!] they wiggle their ɷ's and get ever so sulky and peevish! Great advertisements for their sort of 'democracy', aren't they!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 05:23 AM

... Nor does it always result in the sort of government they would like at that, does it? Italy & France have had PR for a long time; and a fine example of stability their govts have provided over the years since end of WWii, eh! Israel has had PR since its inception in 1948; resulting in a series of election successes of late years for the sort of govt to make those erstwhile supporters who laboured all those years for the state's establishment want to throw up. Or perhaps you two like the present Israeli admin's ways of working? Plenty of 9·to·5 sez that well·meaning boobies like the pair of you don't!


≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:06 AM

"Is that the Britain that you constantly disparage and denigrate?"
As far as I am concerned, Britain is its people not the institutions that have ground it into the shit in pursuit of yet more wealth.
It is the people you have described as too lazy to work, preferring to cadge off the state rather than abandon their families, get on their bikes and pedal down to London to join the dole queues in the hope of picking something up there and live god knows where.
The Britain I "disparage and denigrate" are those who hate the British people and persistently support the establishment that has fucked the country up.
You have made it quite clear who your "Britain" is - (Date: 17 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM) you told us that the family comes second to the state, that to support the family is to betray the country - I've told you what that is - you seem to have accepted that as a badge of honour
The Britain that I respect and support is the one I grew up and worked in all my life, - the people forced to live on the shitty housing estates and work on the docks, who got up off their arses day after day, all their lives to do a day's work and who put up with Tory twats telling them they were all lazy, greedy, know-nothings and do-nothings.
My Britain is not the bankers (excuse the mis-spelling) and the entrepreneurs who are now crashing the country into recession after recession and the politicians who have created a situation where that will continue until they are stopped
Your "successful" is a Britain without rights run for the benefit of those who already have enough for ten lifetimes.
Not mine.
Your purported love of Britain is based on a hatred of and contempt for the vast majority of its population – the actual wealth producers – your Britain is the real spongers and the institutions – the Generals and the royal hangers-on, the flags and the ciphers - not its people
How can you love and respect a country amd despise its people?
What a ****** pair of blimpish Tory stereotypes!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:07 AM

Michael, please raise the tone.

Comments about 'you' that lump people together (and in this case refer to all of their views as if they are a monolithic group) are not really very helpful not to mention silly suggestions about moving parts of their body. It's all part of the pernicious way of seeing the world in terms of static us-versus them blocks instead of--to adapt Jo Cox's words-- looking for a common, shared, humanity, and affirming that what joins us is greater than what divides us.

If we change anything about representation, proportional having failed to win one test, I suggest that we give proportional weighting by age. Those who will be longest affected by any major change should have a larger say. And anyone old enough to operate a motor vehicle or enroll in the army should be eligible to vote.
Those who will be likely to live with the consequences for a shorter time, have a smaller say.

One of the tragedies of the current predicament is that it's such a massive kicking away of ladders.
Those who benefitted from free university education remove that opportunity from the young. (And sell on the educational debt for a profit.) Those who benefitted from the post-War NHS and Welfare state, and later the benefits of Common Market and EU kick it away from the young. A fine legacy, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:31 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 18 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM
Talking of non-democracy care to tell us who is responsible for introducing legislation in the EU? - Rhetorical question - It is the EU Commission, a group of unelected officials - EU legislation "involves the passing of laws written by people whom no one in Britain elected, no one can name and no one can remove."

Can you explain how that is different from the UK system where the UK unelected civil service drafts legislation in relation to political aims for the politicians to approve or disapprove.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:49 AM

In fact, we have elected representatives in the EU and they can veto provisions.

But ours have not served us well. Other EU countries saved their steel industries. UK EU reps vetoed provisions to help.

Mr Farage himself is a Euro MEP rep--just check on his attendance record and see how often he has turned up, how often he exercises his duty to his constituents to vote. If there's a failure of democracy, it's to be laid at his door for not fulfilling his elected duty.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:18 AM

Your opinion as to my 'tone' is of little interest to me, peregrina.

I note your wish virtually to disenfranchise me on account of my being old enough to have lived long enough to survive the Blitz on London, although my N London school near my then home was destroyed in an air raid in 1940, and a landmine fell less than ¼-mile from our house in 1944 and blew out several windows; serve my country in its armed services; work long enough to qualify as an old age pensioner — your thanks for all of which would appear to be to endeavour to prevent my having any say in how succeeding generations of the nation I have served should be governed.

Comment, in any 'tone' in which I might have chosen to deliver it, would be superfluous. I can't imagine such proposals would be very widely supported by many of your fellow citizens, most of whom [to avoid the sort of mildly pejorative locution to which you appear to take such peculiarly fastidious exception] I would take to be rather more sensible, rational and intelligent than are you.

Regards
≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:37 AM

Well well MGM.

Personal insult or ad hominem remarks: the final resort of those who have no sound rational arguments. I won't copy you by indulging in praeteritio and insult.

And once again you engage in the nasty tactic of lumping me together with what you presume to be my identity into with a single large bunch. Yes, classic us versus them thinking. Have you read Yuval Harari's book Sapiens? I think not.

Tell me why you think the very old have a right to determine the shape of a polity for those who will be stuck in it long afterwards? Has it escaped you that many people did favour a lower age of democratic participation for this referendum? Or would you prefer to disenfranchise those you regard as insufficiently rational, sensible and intelligent??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 07:58 AM

Ireland has a PR system which has just managed to defeat one of the most unpopular measures ever introduced by a government – water charges – it would never have happened in Britain
Any electoral system depends on how it is used and who can use it.
Ireland did well out of being a fully consenting member of Europe rather than the "shall I – shan't I" approach taken by Britain.
The gains of membership were destroyed, not by Europe but by the greed of the bankers and the corruption and incompetence of the politicians who put and kept them there.
Under PR, the Irish people managed to create a stalemate lasting for months which prevented the people who placed Ireland in its predicament from waltzing back into office on a first-past-the-post system and forced all the parties to openly co-operate – something else that never would happen in Britain.
Water charges, hopefully, will now be voted out of existence and some of the bankers who milked Ireland dry are now on trial for their dishonest behaviour
That certainly would never have happened in Britain
Even the police force of Ireland has been placed in the spotlight and made answerable for past crimes and incompetences.
There's democracy and democracy, it seems – stability is worth s.f.a. if it doesn't serve the people as a whole
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 09:10 AM

Not to belabour old battles from dead threads...... (but if Israel can be brought up as an example!
When Ireland was partitioned and the administration in the Six Counties announced its intention was to set up a Protestant State subservient to Britain in which Catholics would be exclude from office where possible and if not, neutralised among the first things it did was to dismantle the Proportional Representation electoral system and replace it with a first-past-the-post one.
This lead to an undemocratic and repressively divided sectarian state which never changed until conditions there brought about open warfare which spread to mainland Britain - that was what brought them to teh conference table - which doesn't seem to have reached the tea break yet, let alone a solution.
First-past-the-post makes a mockery of the term 'democracy'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM

@ peregrina --

You are welcome to the last word -- esp when so cogently and comprehensively and comprehensibly expressed in such incomparably insightful aperçus as

"lumping me together with what you presume to be my identity into with a single large bunch."

Adieu

❤☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺❤

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

Lovely. A gentleman?

Really MGM, you've illustrated precisely the concerns about civil discourse and us-against them prejudice and division that are so toxic right now.

And not a rational argument to offer: just ad hominem insults.

Maybe think for a moment about what people share, not how to divide them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

Michael's hailing of our amazing parliamentary system needs to be set against the backdrop that the Tories obtained just over one third (37%) of votes cast, and under one quarter of eligible voters put their cross next to a Tory candidate. The vast majority did not get what they voted for. Just think how them there Tories go to town on trade unions when strike ballots attract a similar level of votes in favour versus eligibility to vote. The whole point of proportional representation is to try to do away with this, er, lack of democracy. In addition, I note that he freely indulges in the logical fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc In trying to persuade us that proportional representation leads to weak government. Perhaps he'd care to explain the continuing success of Germany then.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM

There was a bit on Science Friday about how the Br/Exit would affect science but I can't find it at their website, anybody got a better ferret?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 01:02 PM

So account, Steve, for the 'democratic' referendum rejection only 5 years ago of the system you would obviously prefer, and tghen justify such an attitude while trying to maintain your 'democraticv' credentials. Fear you have painted yourself into a bit of a corner, my dear fellow.

peregrina - having bid you adieu, have not read your latest addressed to me; & intend to read no more. So save your metaphorical breath to cool your metaphorically lumpy porridge.

☞〠☜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 01:51 PM

Steve -- precisely. Thank you for that.

Mrrzy -- effect on research funding, knowledge exchange and so on of leaving EU will be deleterious.
The UK benefits greatly (and indeed disproportionately from EU funds) for research. In short: science will suffer.

If anyone knows the MGM lion well enough to send something sweet his way, it would be a good turn. I'm rather disappointed at the level of personal insult and lack of reasoned argument. One of the justifications for free speech in a democracy is the idea that good ideas should drive out bad in open discussion. MGM's insults and refusal to engage don't exemplify civil discourse.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 06:03 PM

Well, peregrina, Michael is infamous in these parts not only for his unwarranted tirades of contumely directed at anyone not as right-wing as he is, but also for disappearing up his own linguistically-gnarled bottom.

Michael, the 2011 referendum was a cynical Tory ploy inflicted on (sorry: promised to) an extremely gullible bunch of LibDems. The choice in the vote did not anywhere near represent all the possible permutations of proportional representation. It was a total Tory con, and you know it. It is an informed example of absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: brashley46
Date: 19 Jun 16 - 09:55 PM

Quite the political thread you folks have here. I would just like to point out, from across the pond in Toronto, that not all the YES campaigners are teh right-wing Little England types. The leadership of the RMT union is the only labour leadership campaigning for the Yes, but there are surely a large minority of good trades unionists in the other organisations who are against it as well, on the grounds that Brothers Steve Hedley and Alex Gordon keep trying to push ... the EU is not a Europe for the workers and the peoples of Europe, it is a Europe for the bankers. It is a Europe which makes it virtually impossible for workers from other countries in the EU working in the UK to be paid at the same rate as British workers; how is that immigrant-friendly?

If it were possible to reform the EU so that the people who control it were democratically elected, that would be another question. But the Troika are not elected by any of the populations of Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:54 AM

Steve Shaw - 18 Jun 16 - 08:57 PM

It would seem that in general we are much in agreement

1: "Well, the UK has been outvoted on 58 issues in the last fourteen years but has agreed on over two and a half thousand issues. Most of those 58 issues have hardly been life-threatening. Pretty good for a club now with 28 member states."

Britain has always been popularly portrayed as always being at odds with the EU something that is a gross misrepresentation. Anti-EU feeling in the UK runs at about 49%, in countries such as Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany that percentage is much higher. Britain has never said No to the EU or called a referendum on any EU issue France has, the Netherlands have, Denmark has, Ireland has. Didn't help any of them, their Governments just rejigged the questions until Brussels got the result they wanted. The UK's "contentment" with the EU stems from deals that were made with it by Margaret Thatcher that excludes the UK from specific things the principle one being our currency - we can never be forced into joining the Euro.

2: The basis of peregrina's statement on wars is bloody obvious. The two biggest wars of all time by a country mile were between European states, at least at their outsets, and the Common Market's forerunner was set up with the express aim of preventing such conflicts in the future.

Peregrina put the point very badly and inaccurately. The European Steel and Coal Community was set up to specifically reduce the risk of any future war between France and Germany and to "control" Steel and Coal production so that in the environment of what was known as the "Cold War" West Germany could rearm. To date the EU has not shown itself capable of deterring anything, NATO on the other hand has.

3: "you fail to inform us that Norway must comply with rules on free movement of people, the numero uno campaigning gambit of the racist "out" campaign."

The trouble with the EU is that rules are not interpreted and applied in any standard uniform manner. If you actually think that Norway complies in the same manner as the UK, France, Germany or the Netherlands then you would be very much mistaken. Anyone thinking that they can just travel to Norway and look for work would be in for one hell of a shock.

4: "As for workers' pension funds, we have one of the worst state pension provisions in Europe and we have arseholes like Philip Green sucking money out of pension funds. Nothing to do with the EU one way or the other."

Who said pensions had anything to do with the EU? I didn't. In mentioning pensions I was addressing peregrina's "profits for the rich" nonsense. I was also not referring to State Pensions, but private and company pensions that rely on companies making profit. Oh and Sir Philip Green whose actions generally are to be condemned did nothing that Labour's very own darling and financial genius Gordon Brown didn't himself do with the State Pension fund while he was Chancellor under Blair. Which could be why our State Pension Provision is so poor.

5: "As for unelected officials, you appear to be resoundingly silent about the half-dead, the unelected party lackeys and the men in frocks who infest the Lords. Last I heard, they were heavily involved in making our laws..."

26 men in frocks and 92 of the "half dead" {If you are referring to who I think you are} out of a chamber of 800 sitting members. Hardly a "heavy presence" - most as you correctly state are party lackeys like the Kinnocks who have amassed a fortune worth over £10 million from their adventures in politics, the bulk of the money coming from their careers in the European set up. And no they are not heavily involved in making our laws, they have a role to play, they can even introduce a Bill that may or may not make it onto the Statute Books but they cannot make laws only the House of Commons can do that. The House of Lords can suggest amendments to Bills but the Commons are under no obligation to accept those amendments and the Lords cannot stop any Bill from becoming Law after its third reading. That dates back to The Parliament Act of 1911 that curtailed the power of the House of Lords and was discussed at some length in the Easter Rising thread. Did you know Steve that anyone can apply to become a member of the House of Lords there is even a website for it so that you can apply on-line - their success rate is 50%. Get cracking now that you have some spare time on your hands – you could go there and reform it from the inside.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM

Can you explain how that is different from the UK system where the UK unelected civil service drafts legislation in relation to political aims for the politicians to approve or disapprove."

Kenny B no comparison at all. In the EU it is the EU Commissioners who introduce the legislation and hand it down for the EU Parliament to discuss (Note: Discuss not approve) for the EU Parliament to do anything the decision made has got to have a two-thirds majority (Nigh on impossible in most cases - even when the entire Commission has been shown to be utterly corrupt - Remember the Delors resignations?).

Now in the UK all our political parties issue manifestos that tell us the great unwashed what they propose to do as and when they get elected to power. Provided they play fair and actually do what they say THE ELECTED MEMBERS OF GOVERNMENT assign the task of drafting the relevant Bill to the politically neutral Civil Service for introduction into Parliament when that Bill is debated, or "read", three times by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, during this process changes can be made, then after it's third reading it is passed into law by majority vote when the Bill becomes an Act of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:32 AM

"Peregrina put the point very badly and inaccurately. "
No he/she don't, but you continue to put your points extremely arrogantly and all your unqualified pontificating makes not the slightest difference to that fact.
Why can't you pretend, just for a minute, that others might just know as much, even more than you do.
All your (probably invented) bullshit is in no way approaching the basic fact that Britain is no longer able to stand on its own two feet economically and it needs all the friends it can get in the present situation.
Some of the argument put forward by politicians and economists for stopping in may well be electioneering, but next to those of buffoons like Johnson and Farrage (does anybody take these people seriously in Britain?) it seems blindingly obvious that there is an overwhelming case to remain in and negotiate changes from the inside rather than build a wall to keep the foreigners out - which is basically the ticket these clowns are fighting on.
We have no independence to "win back" - the destruction of our industrial base made sure of that.
Your fascism-based arguments that the people of Britain are subservient to the will of the State and our responsibility to ourselves and our families should come a poor second to that of the State makes it quite clear where you are coming from - hopefully, any decision taken will be based on something an bit more practical and decent that yours.
You appear to think that if you talk down to people they will accept what you say without lifting the corner and looking underneath - recent events should have shown you that this doesn't work.
Why not live and learn from past experience and stop insulting both people's equal, if not superior knowledge and stop talking like a blustering bully.
I'm happy to keep this up as long as you behave the way you do - you foul up decent discussion with your Mussolini soundalikes (he went down in history as a strutting clown - remember?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Megan L
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:40 AM

Politics in this country is filled with the foul stench of lies and bulling of people who think their view should be the only view and they will say anything to make it so. The damage the referendums have caused may not be so obvious in big cities but in small communities they have caused divisions that will take years to heal.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

the basic fact that Britain is no longer able to stand on its own two feet economically

Not a fact but a fallacy Jim.

How can the 5th economy in the whole world be incapable of standing economically.
If we can't, how do all the other nations below 5 (India, S Korea, Canada, Australia) manage?

Wrong again Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 07:43 AM

Couldn't agree more MeganL - but from personal observation I think that the Scottish Independence Referendum was far worse than the "In/Out" EU question.

"the basic fact that Britain is no longer able to stand on its own two feet economically and it needs all the friends it can get in the present situation." - Jim Carroll

This is the country that he is actually talking about:

The world's fifth largest economy;
The world's eighth biggest manufacturer;
A country whose language IS the world's international business language;
The country that is acknowledged as having the best contract law and the most trusted judicial systems in the world;
The country with the most innovative financial services sector;
The country with four of the world's top ten Universities;
The country which according to the World Bank has financially the most powerful capital city on earth.

The EU now is actually holding us back with regard to our trading prospects. If you remove the "Rotterdam Europort" factor we have been doing more trade outside of the EU for quite some time now, the EU "wrinkle" that if it goes from the UK to anywhere on the planet outside of the EU via Rotterdam's Europort it counts as trade with the EU. In the last 53 years since joining the EU, Switzerland {A medium sized country} and Singapore {A City State} have struck trade deals worth five times as much as the agreements the EU has managed. The EU with its 28 member states along with all their vested interests struggles mightily to agree terms of trade while at the same time it naturally prevents us from making our own way in the world as we quite happily and successfully used to do before 1973 - and no Mr. Carroll we do not have to produce coal, or steel, or build ships and motor vehicles or manufacture textiles to do that.

If we vote to leave the EU we are free to make whatever trade deals we like with 80% of the world - something the EU prevents us doing now. No real need to fear what the EU might do, the one thing they dare not do is to penalise us as we currently buy more from them than they do from us, so if they want to save THEIR jobs then they have to continue as before. If we vote to leave and keep everything exactly as it is now we are automatically £10.6 billion better off - that apparently would allow us to spend an additional £100 million per week on the NHS.

The EU's economy is the slowest growing in the world.
The EU's share of the world's economy is shrinking and people actually want to tie us to that.
Greece and it's problems have not gone away, that can just keeps getting kicked down the road, with other EU countries including France just waiting to burst onto the scene. France is in dire need of reform yet you will not find one word or one measure being taken to implement any such reform, so we should take this opportunity to get out while the going is good.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 09:22 AM

I hope everyone is alert enough to appreciate '(it would) allow us to spend an additional £100 million per week on the NHS" is a very different statement to "we will spend £100 million per week on the NHS".

But even if we do significantly increase our spending, it may not achieve what you might guess. My sister and her husband live in Germany, and are concerned they might be forced to move back if the vote is leave. Like most ex-pats, they are appreciably older than the typical migrant workers, and the consequent demands on the NHS to deal with their health issues is also much greater than those of the typical migrant. This is not so much cost, as the UK is already paying their health care: it is pressure on beds, the need for specialist surgeons, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 09:39 AM

Nice to see someone bringing up the Rotterdam 'wrinkle' at last.

I've been puzzled as to why an otherwise intelligent and capable person like David Cameron should show such support for the kind of bad deal that the UK gets from the EU. Then over the weekend I read somewhere, it might have been on here, that the Kinnocks have recieved up to 10 million in assorted benefits since Neil quit the leadership of the Labour party. They were both, Neil and Glenys, employed by the EU. Could it be that the carrot of the EU gravy train plus the allure of the power to be weilded in the EU is enough to turn the wisest of heads? I'll never know for certain, no-one will be tempting insignificant me, but it does answer the question of why people at the top of UK politics make such bad decisions on our behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:11 AM
Kenny B no comparison at all. In the EU it is the EU Commissioners who introduce the legislation and hand it down for the EU Parliament to discuss (Note: Discuss not approve) for the EU Parliament to do anything the decision made has got to have a two-thirds majority (Nigh on impossible in most cases - even when the entire Commission has been shown to be utterly corrupt - Remember the Delors resignations?).

Arent the commissioners in fact Elected MEPs who make up the EU "Cabinet" just like in the UK?
Your comment of "No comparison at all " is your opinion and not a fair comparison of the two systems

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM

Kenny B - 20 Jun 16 - 10:01 AM

Kenny B I would be interested to know why you only seem interested in "snipping" from a position of ignorance and why it is that you cannot be bothered to educate yourself, before bursting into print - to find out who and what EU Commissioners are would take you about 30 seconds on any search engine.

"Arent the commissioners in fact Elected MEPs who make up the EU "Cabinet" just like in the UK?

Short answer to that is no they are not elected MEPs they are appointees, put forward by member states, i.e. NOT ELECTED. Better ask Jim Carroll though he'll say I am just making that up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 10:48 AM

I agree they appointees to the EU by member states elected governments.
It appears that on here if your are not an expert? you should not post or ask questions.

BTW If you are going to get shirty in discussions I suggest you get to know the difference between sniping and snipping. One could hardly accurately shoot an adversary at a distance with a pair is scissors.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:20 AM

"The world's fifth largest economy;"
The largest single body of exports are importing money
We import the overwhelming majority of our cars, coal ships, steel goods.......
"A country whose language IS the world's international business language"]
Fine for those in business - no ***** good if your standing in a dole queue
"The country that is acknowledged as having the best contract law and the most trusted judicial systems in the world;"
What difference does that make to those trying to feed their families?
"The country with the most innovative financial services sector;"
See above.
"The country with four of the world's top ten Universities;"
Out of reach of the vast majority of British people due to astronomical fees.
"The country which according to the World Bank has financially the most powerful capital city on earth."
Now you're getting down to the nitty-gritty - the crooks run the show and everything's tickety boo if we can keep them happy
" Better ask Jim Carroll though he'll say I am just making that up"
"Since 1999 voters in Britain have elected MEPs under a proportional representation system. The European Parliamentary Elections Act of that year introduced a regional list system with seats allocated to parties in proportion to their share of the vote."
EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
You're making it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM

Michael, the 2011 referendum was a cynical Tory ploy ... and you know it.
.,,.,.
I know nothing of the sort, Mr Shaw; but know this to be a typical, predictable, grumpy 'democratic' leftie response when the facts of what the δεμος actually want fail to match up to your/their doctrinaire and witless preconceptions of what the δεμος ought to want.

Keep it up. You & the lady with the classical sounding user·name which I can't be bothered to check on at the moment, et al, really are a most entertaining bunch to represent archetypal leftie-wankerdom!

Best regards

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

"really are a most entertaining bunch to represent archetypal leftie-wankerdom!"
Gone over to the dark side Mike - a little beneath you, don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:41 AM

... & I daresay you will dismiss this, in typical pusillanimous fashion, as an 'unwarranted tirade of contumely'; but it seems pretty warranted to me, and scarcely unduly contumacious..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:42 AM

How long after a "YES" win would it be before packs of armed ultra right wing nationalist paramilitaries roam the streets,
knocking on our front doors late at night.... 😨


.. But looking on the bright side.. would I also eventually be able to legally buy an automatic assault weapon
just like ordinary folks can in America..

Brilliant.. I can't wait for the UK to end up like the Ukraine...
much better than just watching apocalyptic civil wars on the telly... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

My response to The Shaw. into which you contrived with uncanny timing to intervene, will perhaps furnish an answer to your query, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 12:58 PM

"archetypal leftie-wankerdom"

I must admit I do like that - well done MGM-Lion you have them described accurately to a 'T'.

Apologies for the typo Kenny B I promise to try harder in future, I did of course mean "sniping". All of that though does not excuse your deplorable lack of knowledge considering that you voluntarily saw fit to engage in a discussion making assertions that are clearly wrong to anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge.

Jim Carroll of course does not have even rudimentary knowledge but once again he responds to what he thinks has been said as opposed to responding to what actually has been said - missing the mark by a "Kerry Mile" as usual. Pssst Jim we are talking about EU COMMISSIONERS NOT MEPs.

As to "crooked" bankers? Nobody complained when bankers were making spectacular profits which unlike Starbucks, Vodaphone, Google, et al, did pay their corporate taxes. The likes of Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown praised them and piled honours on them. Then along came a US President called Bill Clinton who in 1998 to demonstrate to all that the American Dream was still alive and kicking persuaded the main US Mortgage Brokers Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae to provide mortgages to people who should never have been lent a red cent. The lie not so much told but inferred as those Mortgage Brokers arranged mortgages with various banks and lending institutions was that the Federal Reserve would guarantee those loans, which of course they wouldn't. Now lots of people, bankers included actually believed this inferred and completely baseless guarantee. So when the S**T hit the fan in 2008 the Fed truthfully stated that they knew nothing about any guarantee, unfortunately when in November 2008 GWB asked Congress to approve $740 million to cover this, they said NO. Had they said YES there would have been no crash, there would have been no loss in confidence in the lending institutions. The reason the Democrat dominated Congress said No was because they wanted their man Barack Obama to ride to the rescue, which he did in February 2009, unfortunately by then it wasn't $740 million it was $834 million but by then it was too little and far too damn late. Why the banks had to be saved? Simple really, had they been allowed to fail, millions of people would have lost their savings, hundreds of thousands of businesses would have been forced to close their doors, with the subsequent loss of jobs, those who did not lose their jobs would not have been able to be paid, it would have been complete and utter chaos - so the Government did what it HAD TO DO and in so doing saved the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:05 PM

And pompous with it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:21 PM

Jim, how happy are you with the EU election results under PR?

The result was UKIP first, with 24 seats.
Labour second with 20.
Conservative third with 19.

The following year at the General Election under FPtP, Ukip got just 2 seats.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:26 PM

"Jim, how happy are you with the EU election results under PR?"
Does it matter - if a system is undemocratic, as it certainly was (and intended to be in the Six Counties), it doesn't become any less undemocratic because it doesn't get your man into Parliament.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM

"Pssst Jim we are talking about EU COMMISSIONERS NOT MEPs."
And EU Commissioners, like cabinet ministers are appointed not elected - you boorish lout.
Why should that be an issue in Europe?
Were you brought up loutish or did you have to go to college to learn it?
"As to "crooked" bankers? Nobody complained when bankers were making spectacular profits which unlike Starbucks, Vodaphone, Google, et al, did pay "
Peploe complained when their behaviour sent the economy belly-up and we found out what a bunch of crooks they really where - excusing their dishonest puts you were you are.
Or are you suggesting that self-serving dishonesty is OK because nobody knows about it?
Didn't they teach you about morals and responsibility when you hold responsible public positions?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM

Check out John Oliver's take on the issue from last night's "This Week Tonight". Showstopper of an ending!










Ruddy Great Belgian Bastards!
Monty Python


"The English the English the English are best, I wouidn't give tuppence for all of the rest!"
Flanders and Swann

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM

And EU Commissioners, like cabinet ministers are appointed not elected - you boorish lout.
Why should that be an issue in Europe?

Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point and always end up comparing apples to oranges???

The role of EU Commissioners cannot be compared to the role of Cabinet Ministers in any national government. Member states appoint Commissioners to the EU Council of Commissioners, in a national government cabinet ministers, most of whom have already been elected as members of the representative body, although in the UK members of the Lords can be appointed as Cabinet Ministers, but all Cabinet Members are appointed by the Political Party that has been elected to govern the country.

Now Kenny B assured us all that it was a fact that all EU Commissioners were elected MEPs they are not - that is fact.

He also tried to tell us {paraphrased} that in the UK the 'unelected' Civil Service dream up whatever legislation is put before Parliament - that is not true and nothing could be further from the truth.

Before Kenny B makes a point of it, who is this character Peploe who complained? You cliché ridden archetypal leftie-wanker - as you seem to be in the name calling mood {Thanks again Michael - you are a gem}

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

So as not to disappoint
Was it a typo? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:45 PM

It happens to the best? of us

Rudimentry Reading by Boris

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM

"Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point "
WILL YOU ******* STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE - YOU'VE MADE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN THE PAST BY DOING SO AND YOU CONTINUE TO HERE - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU REALLY AREN'T THE BRIGHTEST STARTFISH IN ANYBODY'S SANDBUCKET NO MATTER WHT ILLUSIONS YOU HAVE OF YOURSELF!!
The appointment to any body is on the basis that they represent that body and not the interests of one particular interest - they are there to serve the interest of the body, not individual states, that is fought for by the MEPs.
Do youreally not understand that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 02:56 PM

"Why oh why Jom do you always miss the point "
WILL YOU ******* STOP TALKING DOWN TO PEOPLE - YOU'VE MADE AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF IN THE PAST BY DOING SO AND YOU CONTINUE TO HERE - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU REALLY AREN'T THE BRIGHTEST STARTFISH IN ANYBODY'S SANDBUCKET NO MATTER WHAT DELUSIONS OF GRANDEUR YOU HAVE OF YOURSELF!!
The appointment to any body is on the basis that they represent that body and not the interests of one particular interest - they are there to serve the interest of the body, not individual states, that is fought for by the MEPs.
Do youreally not understand that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:03 PM

Perhaps one of the passing forum fairies who were quick enough to close down threads when we were all slagging each other off might oblige with a quick word in this feller's ear abut his insulting behaviour before this thread goes belly-upward - perhaps that's what he's after.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

Why I wonder, did Boris take so long to make up his mind about which side to support.
He had something to lose if he followed David Cameron and he lost.
Had nothing to lose if his side won and a lot to gain.
Or maybe it was a case of who offered the biggest "incentive" to join them.
Nobody on any of the debates has been allowed to ask him or Michael Gove how much they would personally gain in monetary terms by supporting the "Leave" campaign
In the words of the infamous Bluebottle "Just a thought"

In a northern accent " if some buddy Brexit and it cannie be fixed should I vote for it"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM

Well then 'Wolfie' my little ALW, when it comes to discussion on this forum I am not hampered and tied by your bankrupt, disproven, tired and outdated clichés, mind-set, inverted snobbery and Anglophobia that belong to half-a-century ago.

Your new pal was wrong and if you want to talk of anybody making a fool of themselves on this forum you just continue as you have been doing. If you want two words to describe the Brussels set up that accurately reflects them those words would be corrupt and unaccountable.

IF you think I am talking down to you Carroll then the remedy is simple - RAISE YOUR GAME by trying a bit of original thought and application.

Kenny B if it is thoughts of venal gain that concern you. Where is your condemnation for the Kinnocks who acquired over £10 million supping at the EU trough and acting as paid political lackeys in their own right sitting in the House of Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:31 PM

I'd just like to mention that the spinning of the horrific killing of Jo Cox by the Remain campaign was just about the most cynical and disgusting political action of recent years.

For Cameron to personally link Mr Farage and the Leave campaign in general to the murder, for political gain, was inexcusable.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:32 PM

If you haven't already seen it From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:36 PM

Sorry, something went badly wrong with that link and it has garbled two posts together, didn't realise you could do that!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 05:51 PM

Here is the video that I tried to link to above which is a summary by someone who actually works in the field.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 08:52 PM

It is perfectly reasonable to infer a link between the murder of Jo Cox by a deranged fanatic, identifying himself as a "patriot" and the increasingly xenophobic rhetoric of elements in the leave campaign.

I would suspect that there will be a good number of till now undecided voters who will come down on the Remain side because they infer such a link.

That is not the same thing as suggesting a direct link. And so far as I'm aware no one has suggested or implied any such link.
..............
As has been pointed out, government ministers are not elected any more than EU commissioners. The process is that the Commission President, who is elected by the European Parliament for a term of five years, is presented with a list of commissioners appointed by EU govenments, and chooses which posts to give them. The complete list of appointed commissioners is then taken back, and is accepted or rejected a whole.

In a sense this is fairly similar to the Westminster model, where Parliament approves a Prime Minister who has been appointed formally by the reigning monarch, on the basis that he or she is able to win a vote of confidence in the Commons. The Prime Minister has absolute authority to appoint anyone he or she likes to be a Minister (they can always be appointed to the Alords if need be), and the Commns has no say in it.

Both systems are partly democratic, partly the reverse. The EU model, constrained by the non-federal structure of the EU, means that by definition Commissioners cannot all come from the same party, and that the whole system is intrinsically multi-party. This has disadvanrages as well as advantages. But not many Brexiters complaining about a democratic shhortfall are advocating a move towards a more fedderal system.

It is possible to think of reforms that would increase democratic control, but of course tyat can only be brought about by people in the EU acting together.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:43 AM

"I am not hampered and tied by your bankrupt, disproven, tired and outdated clichés,"
No - you are hampered and tied by your own attitude to others.
Just as nobody here is impressed by your goosestepping bullying
You have been given my, and other people's reasons for arguing as you do - in typical of your kind fashion you have responded with bullshit and bluster, as you do - it hasn't served you well here in the past and there are no signs of it having done so here.
Your contempt for the members of this forum is palpable - even if you had arguments worth considering, your self-absorbed arrogance prevents them from getting across
Keep it up - every little helps, as the man from Tesco says.
At ease, Captain Mainwearing.
"For Cameron to personally link Mr Farage and the Leave campaign in general to the murder, for political gain, was inexcusable."
For Farrage to make immigrants the main target in an election in a way no other party has done in the past is an indication that his party is a neo-fascist racist driven one.
"It is perfectly reasonable to infer a link between the murder of Jo Cox by a deranged fanatic,"
Perhaps it's worth reproducing this from yesterday's Times:
Jim Carroll

"FAR-RIGHT GROUPS 'ARE INCITING HATE ON SOCIAL MEDIA'
Gabriella Swelling, Fiona Hamilton, Georgie Keate
Police are being urged to investigate extreme right-wing groups and their incitement activities after a series of hateful messages were published on social media in the wake of Jo Cox's murder.
Nationalist groups have been accused of glorifying Thomas Mair, Mrs Cox's accused killer, crowing about the attack and making excuses for it.
It comes amid concern about the rise of the far right in pockets of the UK, notably in Yorkshire, with violence at anti-immigration marches and in¬creasing anti-Muslim hate crimes.
In the days since Mrs Cox's death scores of members of far-right organisations have taken to social me¬dia to make threats to other MPs and to crow about the fate of the 41-year-old mother, who was a prominent cam¬paigner for remaining in the EU.
The northeast unit of National Action, which has campaigned for Britain to leave the EU, tweeted: "VoteLeave, don't let this man's sacrifice go in vain. Jo Cox would have filled Yorkshire with more subhumans."
The police northeast counterterrorism unit confirmed they were probing a number of "offensive messages on social media and extreme social media content". A spokesman said: "We are conducting checks on this material to establish whether or not any criminal offences have been committed."
There have been numerous other disturbing messages from far-right supporters in other areas of the coun¬try, resulting in calls for police to moni¬tor and investigate online hatred.
A member of the English Defence League, another far-right group, posted on Facebook: "Many of us have been saying for years that sooner or later "SOMEONE" was going to get killed. No one thought it was going to be one of "them" (left-wing) who was going to be the first victim of the coming civil unrest heading towards Europe... BUT he had reached his breaking point (like many of us) and snapped."
One Twitter user described Mrs Cox as a "traitor" while another said she was a "threat to the UK" and described Mr Mair as an "Aryan warrior". Another group, linked to a news story of Mrs Cox's calling itself the Notts Casual Infidels, murder and posted on Facebook: "We knew it was only a matter of time before we take it to the next level. We have been mugged off for too long."
A man associated with Pegida UK, an anti-Islam group, posted on Facebook: "From today the game changed as a good friend said have a look at today's date 16/06/2016. Next time the government must listen to its people."
Matthew Collins, head of research at Hope not Hate, a charity that seeks to defeat the politics of extremism within British communities, said he was con¬cerned that "there are a number of tiny, right-wing organisations that are taking great glory and satisfaction from Jo's death".
He added: "I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division."
Mr Collins said that although there were many people who did not agree with or vote for Mrs Cox, "they had the decency to recognise the contribution she made to wider society".
Referring to hateful messages posted on social media, he said: "These people are so on the margins of society that they no longer have any sense of moral decency or moral codes. I think the police should look at the motives behind some of those people that are continuing to speak so much hatred and division and are well aware of what such words have led to. These people are engaged in a whole network of tearing down the moral fabric of society."
Stephen Kinnock, the MP who shared an office with Mrs Cox, was subjected to "particularly venomous" online abuse last week after an article about his family's support for the Remain campaign. One email threatened violence and has been reported to the police, he said.
Mr Kinnock said the far right were a "shady bunch" who had many of their "views legitimised by the referendum and the choice of the Leave campaign to go hard on immigration".
"I get the sense that a lot of rhetoric around the Leave campaign would have been classified as far right only five years ago but now' it's more mainstream. For example, I don't think any political party would have put up that poster of Nigel Farage's then.
"There seems to have been a drum beat over the years for venomous rhe¬toric. A lot of this referendum would have been classified as pretty extreme.
"Many MPs have a siege mentality because of the abuse, so I do think something needs to be done about it, but the question is what. You've got to get a balance between free speech and protecting people's security. The last thing we'd want to do is never hold surgeries, then the bad guys have won."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 05:53 AM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 20 Jun 16 - 04:46 PM

Kinnock Income - Daily Mail

Kinnocks income , initially horrified then I thought what is the going rate for this kind of work? I thought maybe Teribus will know.

The Daily Mail does good hatchet jobs on opponents and their families but it doesn't give comparisons against the "troughing" of Chris Patten over the same period or Leon Brittan over a period of roughly twice the length of the two others purely as examples of UK commissioners from around the same era.
The article also doesn't give a breakdown of the 10m ballpark figure so I ask myself, why? I.m sure it would have provided a breakdown and comparison if it was to its advantage.
Conclusion - Typical Daily Mail rhetoric with no attempt at context in a feeble attempt to influence people to vote Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

Kenny B wrote: The Daily Mail does good hatchet jobs on opponents and their families but it doesn't give comparisons against the "troughing" of Chris Patten over the same period or Leon Brittan over a period of roughly twice the length of the two others purely as examples of UK commissioners from around the same era.

The £10 million is a mix of past salaries, allowances and pension benefits that allow a super affluent retirement. They probably don't have millions to spend at will. However the point that the EU is a super gravy train for past politicians explains why so many of them are in favour. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 09:54 AM

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas? Well, many would say that is precisely what the Brexiters are trying to persuade the voters to do.

The thing that has been left out of the picture most of the time is that this is not an even choice where you haver around and then come down on the one that on balance appeals.

Out means out - there is no way back. If we have second thoughts down the line, tough. We will never have the option to return to the status quo. Remain, in contrast, is essentially provisional. If we think it wss the wrong choice, we can always decide to leave at any future timme. It's built into the EU treaty. The choice is in our own hands, and always will be.

Only people who are 100 per cent certain that etting out is the right thing to do should even consider voting for it. Any hesitation or uncertain, and voting remain is the only rational thing to do - whatever doubts we might have about whether it is the right thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM

Interesting to note that the Sterling rose in value yesterday on the basis of an estimates 53% support for staying compared to 46% for Brexit.
While its galling to think of these prickeens gambling on our futures, it is an indication of how serious they are taking the possibility of Britain leaving
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:14 AM

Some more information for you Kenny B:

Get elected as an MEP
With your Pay + Allowances (All Tax Free) for five years.
That earns you an 80% full pay Pension which is automatically taxed at the lowest rate of tax within the EU irrespective of where you actually live.
You get tax free lump sums to move in and a similar one to leave. If you manage it right you do not actually have to touch your "Salary" for five years.
That is just for an ordinary MEP. The real gravy train starts if you manage to wangle yourself onto EU Parliamentary committees - then you can really start milking the cow.
Best of all however if you manage to get yourself appointed as an EU Commissioner.

Remember the Queen's Speech that Kinnock as Leader of the Opposition refused to attend in the Palace of Westminster because of his deep seated objection to the institution of the Upper Chamber - Overcame those objections PDQ when he was offered his own seat in the place at £300 per day sitting or £150 per day if absent. Neil tends not to sit, while wifie a "Lord" in her own right likes the money and signs in to collect it - doesn't do much else though - hypocrites or what?

By the way Kevin, to become the Prime Minister of the UK you have to have been elected to the House of Commons - now tell me what you have to be elected to, to become the President of the European Union Commission, or become the President of the European Council for that matter - the answer of course is nothing - both are selected from a list of appointees - "the people" have no say and once in place they cannot be removed.

Now the Cabinet of the UK on the other hand:
"Ministers of the Crown, and especially Cabinet ministers, are selected primarily from the elected members of House of Commons, and also from the House of Lords, by the Prime Minister."

Nice try Kevin but there is one hell of a difference.

European Parliament = useless talking shop with no power whatsoever.
European Commission = Unelected clique who dictate policy and further their own interests without any regard for anybody else. Without doubt the most corrupt and unaccountable body on the face of this earth - wouldn't surprise me if Sepp Blatter was appointed as the next President of the EU Commission - after all he did such a great job at FIFA.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM

Look on the bright side Teribus, the Kinnocks getting paid is better than some "Johnny Foreigner" eh.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:03 AM

If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

What will their next move be...???


.. a coup.....????? 😰

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM


If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

Well, I don't anticipate many of them saying that's democracy and the will of the electorate so we will shut up about it from now on ...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 11:52 AM


If "Remain" does manage to win, just how bitter a loser will the "Leave" lot be...???

Well, I don't anticipate many of them saying that's democracy and the will of the electorate so we will shut up about it from now on ...


Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:20 PM

"Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat."

Explain to us all why there would be a huge market crash.

On the morning after a vote to leave we will still remain members of the EU for at least two years.

Jim Sillars put it brilliantly the other night:

If it is vitally important for us to consider and protect our£228 billion trade with Europe Why is it considered unimportant for the rest of the EU and the troubled and stagnant Eurozone to protect their £282 billion with us?

Of course there will be negotiations if we vote to leave.

6% of British companies do trade with Europe but 100% of our companies have to pander to the thousands of rules and regulations and cope with the red tape in order to trade with Europe - WHY?

Switzerland and Singapore have made bilateral trade deals throughout the world that have been worth five times the deals made by the EU over the same period - So where is this marked international advantage in being part of the EU?

By staying as part of the EU we cut ourselves off from 80% of the world. Our best performing earner the City of London does not suit the EU - they want to see it severely reduced as they (Germany) want the financial centre of Europe to be Frankfurt - they've already had one good crack at it, which we knocked back.

Last but by no means least can any of the "Remain Brigade" tell me why it is that those in charge of the EU cannot produce a set of balanced accounts that shows where the EU's money has gone? And you seriously want to be part of this circus??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:22 PM

If remain win, it may come to be seen as a mistake by those who voted for it.
Come the 2020 election, as in 2015 the Tories will fear a loss of support to UKIP and may have to offer another referendum to avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:50 PM

"Equally if we do vote to leave and there IS a huge market crash exactly as all the experts predict, I don't expect Gove and co to be searching for humble pie to eat."

Explain to us all why there would be a huge market crash.

There is no point. Firstly, as you are not willing to listen to all the economists who predict it, I don't delude myself you will listen to non-expert me. Secondly, I said 'if' there was a crash, not 'there will be', so I don't have to demonstrate a certainty I didn't claim. But thirdly, should we vote leave we will know one way or the other soon enough without wasting time debating it now.

But I am to read your response as suggesting that IF we vote leave and IF there is a crash, you will be posting here, eating humble pie, saying you were wrong? Somehow, I doubt you are any more likely to do that than Gove or Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 12:59 PM

Thanks Teribus
but why single out the Kinnocks for being two faced when there are so many others to choose from..

Keith, Keith, Oh please don't threaten us with another fnrendum.
Is that an attempt at scare tactics that has come too late, one that nobody dared give the light of day till now.
Just think of all those politicians, pundits and half-Pun-dits who will jump on the gravy train of giving an opinion.
Have mercy on the mods of Mudcat if nothing else

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:24 PM

"If it is vitally important for us to consider and protect our£228 billion trade with Europe Why is it considered unimportant for the rest of the EU and the troubled and stagnant Eurozone to protect their £282 billion with us?"

Possibly because that £282 billion is divided amongst 28 member states thus £10 billion per nation if divided equally.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:25 PM

DMcG the question is perfectly valid and still holds good. YOU obviously believe it, yet you cannot state why you believe it - Because a "Big Boy" told me?? I obviously must tend to question things more than you as I can state clearly why I think we will be better off in the long term out of Europe and trading with the rest of the world.

By the bye, did your "experts" give any time frame for this inevitable "huge market crash" that I must apologise for should we vote leave? Tell me does a weakened £ help or hinder our exports? Our currency has been too strong for too long, if we leave the Euro will weaken too, then of course there are all those non-binding not quite written in stone promises that "Call-me-Dave" got about us not having to bail out Eurozone countries - they will go out the window as soon as the next inevitable crisis hits the EU's idiotic currency.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:29 PM

You've forgotten to put some blame on decimalisation as well Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:38 PM

Anyone the Prime Minister wishes to become a member of his cabinet can and will promptly be given a seat in the House of Lords.

The point is, no one elects cabinet members or other ministers. No one even has any say apart from the Prime Minister, who was of course never subject to popular vote for that post.

Having the Chief Commissioner elected by popular vote would undoubtedly be a reform resisted to the hilt by all those who fear moves towards a federal structure for the EU. Indirect election by MEPs who have all been themselves elected is the compromise that has been adopted. The same way essentially that our Prime Minister is determined, apart from the relic of the monarch's role of actually appointing the person involved.

Talking shop? That's what the word parliament actually means. Talking being seen as a preferable way of sorting out things than fighting.

The fact that MPs have been individually elected to do one job, representing and serving their constituents, in no way means that they are in any way suited to do the very different job of running ministries etc. The American system where the equivalent of ministers are selected from non-elected members of the public, but subject to approval and rejection by the legislature has problems, is arguably more democratic. There is something to be said for introducing that both for the Commons and the EU.

In the Commons having this system, with sitting MPs not being eligible for government jobs, would end the ability of Prime Ministers to subvert the independence of the Commons by appointing a sizeable payroll vote who cannot act independently.

Undoubtedly the EU needs democratising reforms - as does the British system - but the so-called "reforms" David Cameron was after had nothing to do with getting them. A serious drive by to get them would win support from like-minded people in other countries. If in the next EU election there was a slate of candidates in all countries committed to getting those kind of reforms it might make for an election worth getting stuck into.

But of course that means not taking the irrevocable gamble of voting for out this week.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM

"Because a "Big Boy" told me?? "
Beats taking the word of a serial bullshitter every time
Jim Carroll
Financial Times

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:06 PM

Your FT article is neutral Jim.
What was your point?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 02:13 PM

DMcG the question is perfectly valid and still holds good. YOU obviously believe it, yet you cannot state why you believe it - Because a "Big Boy" told me?? I obviously must tend to question things more than you

i can only smile at that last bit, and I am sure some of the regulars here will smile at it too.

What makes you imagine I can't state why I hold the opinion I do? My policy on this site is to discuss things freely with anyone, but not to get into pointless arguments.   As to the question being valid, I only claimed ia crash 'could' happen not that it 'would'. I am sure you appreciate the difference. I deny it will happen, I assert it could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 03:21 PM

"Your FT article is neutral Jim."
You haven't read it properly - it gives the pros and cons from an expert point of view allowing the readers to decide for themselves and take into consideration everything it doesn't cover, for instance, do I want to support a campaign that it 'fortress Britain' based and targeted specifically at immigrants and asylum seekers.
What is says on balance is the gains of leaving are fairly unfathomable and marginal, the immediate losses fairly clear and the long term ones - again 'blowin' in the wind'- not exactly "neutral" but I assume you mean, not making a suggestion of which way you should vote - fine by me - I'm capable of doing that fore myself if I am given enough "neutral" evidence to work with.
The F.T, is aimed at economists and investors anyway and as they are very much a part of the problem with Britain, I'm not likely to welcome any suggestion as to who to vote for anyway.
I know that goes against your particularly way of approaching things.
I don't begin to understand the economics of Europe but I know enough to realise this "winning back" of an independence we don't possess is crap.
So - you look at the figures, weigh up what side you are on as a human being and make up your mind on your conclusions - doesn't win any competitions so it's not for you.
The facts that would help me to decide are ethical and moral ones.
I know the neo-fascist right has based their campaign on pure racism - not for me.
Ukip racism
The actual fascists have shown what they are made of with the killing of Jo Cox - certainly a reason to vote stay.
Jo Cox, Brexit and the politics of hate
So - you look at the figures, weigh up what side you are on as a human being and make up your mind on your conclusions - doesn't win any competitions so it's not for you.
Of course we could forget everything and just take Teribus's advice - sure we could!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

I hadn't seen this before, but anyone care to join Boris?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:27 AM

DMcG....You have cited a post of mine which was unaccountably deleted.
I cannot understand what point you are attempting to make, though I notice that Jim has continued to link the campaign to gain some sort of control over immigration to "hated" of foreigners, racism, xenophobia, etc, etc.
People who lead and support withdrawal from the EU, have made it clear that immigration of some sort will always be required, but that to have no control over who comes here from the very poorest countries in the EU and in what numbers, is absolute ideological madness......the present policy of the EU on "free movement of people" is exploitative of the poorer countries and damaging to THEIR infrastructures......it is simply indefensible.

---

I don't see any deleted messages from Akenaton in this thread. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:39 AM

The actual fascists have shown what they are made of with the killing of Jo Cox - certainly a reason to vote stay.

Is the attempt to kill Trump a reason to vote for him?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM

"Is the attempt to kill Trump a reason to vote for him?"
Just the opposite - if somebody had drowned Hitler in a bucket at birth the world would be a far better place.
If Trump triumphs there are going to be a hell of a lot of people dying as a direct cause of his policies.
Don't you dare compare heroes like Jo Cox to scum like Trump - haven't you learned your lesson yet?
None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies - though you did get your fingers badly burnt on the Jo Cox thread with your tasteless, but very revealing intervention there.
I take your silence to be a further indication of your own position on this matter, as I do Ake's old usual anti-immigration rant.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:41 AM

No, ake, my posts related to comments by Teribus. Any relationship to posts by you is accidental.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies

I'll respond. This is wishful thinking, a typical left wing rant.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:59 AM

"I'll respond. This is wishful thinking, a typical left wing rant."
Bit late in the day, don'cha think?
I have never experienced such an extremist, openly race-based right wing election campaign in Britain - not ever.
Evn Powell's "rivers of Blood" had him thrown out of the Tory party and any acceptable to the Northern Irish Unionists.
Keeping "them" out has been the main objective of the Brexists.
In that light I'm more than happy to be described as a "typical left winger" - must get a tee-shirt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:05 AM

The Brexit mob have been told to chant brainlessly "take back control" at the end of every other sentence. It means "take back control from all these Johnny Foreigners."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 07:01 AM

We Brits should stand together as Great Britain!. We have the power!. As the fifth wealthiest country in the world, why would any country wish to stop trading with us? The remain party seem to imply that coming out will destroy trade with the EU. So BMW, Mercedes etc etc etc are just going to cut us off are they. NO WAY! They might be a little worried that we would buy from elsewhere perhaps... like Japan, Korea, USA etc etc. So of course they want us to stay in or they might lose our trade!. The fact is that we do not need the EU! What we do need is to come out and appoint a government which is truly democratic (i.e. Of the people, by the people FOR the people)... not just for the rich who get richer in the EU and the poor gradually getting poorer. How many food banks have been set up since our entry into the EU`?. Lets get our own territorial waters back so we can catch our own fish... the EU has put many UK trawler men out of work and fish companies have diminished in our country. We have to buy fish caught in OUR waters from EU countries because we don't get enough of our own. All grown food exported to the EU has to meet certain criteria regarding size and appearance. Each strawberry has to be a regulation size to go to the EU countries. Each cabbage has to be of regular size. Most other harvested crops are governed in the same way. We didn't have those rules before!!!! Do you care how big your strawberries are as long as you get good value for money?
Who are the people in Brussels who are NOT ELECTED and who make all the final decisions? Can you name one? NO because even our top politicians don't know who they are.
David Cameron has tried to win the vote by appealing for different groups at differing times to vote remain..... Parents, It's for your children! Students, it's for your benefit etc etc. What he has not done is laid out a balanced view of the good or bad of IN or OUT.................... HE!!!! wants us to stay in because HE and members of the Aristocracy will get richer whilst the people in general get poorer and governed by more rules from the 'invisible' people in Brussels

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM

No, it means take back control from a corrupt, and bureaucratic cartel.

Never thought I would see you openly supporting the interests of big business Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:01 AM

Radio talk show host Glen Beck suggests that Jo Cox was murdered by her own people. That this nut job was pointed at her in order to gain a sympathy vote to stay in the union. And that "If you think this stuff only happens in Jason Bourne Novels you are hopelessly naive".

But consider the source.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM

Jo Cox was murdered by her own people. That this nut job was pointed at her in order to gain a sympathy vote to stay in the union
Or maybe it was by Brexit campaigners, aiming for a double-bluff.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:09 AM

I'm convinced that David Cameron already has a nice cushy job lined up in Brussels. Big salary, loads of expenses and an amazing pension at the end (paid at least in part by you and me of course), all depending on him delivering a 'Remain' result.

And what makes it even funnier is the fact that he has the majority of the Parliamentary Labour party on his side.

You couldn't make it up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:15 AM

None of you people have responded to the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies

Not a fact Jim.
Just a ludicrous assertion from you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

"We Brits should stand together as Great Britain!."
The other side of teh Brexit coin - Little England.
The argument that those who take the decisions are "unelected" ia a myth - HERE IS HOW DECISIONS ARE REACHED
Much preferable to the Boris Johnsons and the Nigel Farages of this world.
Britain has no economic base any longer - Maggie made sure of that - its major export is money - that fact benefits only the already wealthy and is the cause of all Britain's problems at present.
If you want to appeal for the sake of our children, tell us where they can go to look for the work Britain is unable to provide when they can no longer look to Europe for jobs.
There is no answer to this question, which is why the whole Brexit campaign is based on racist xenophobia on a massive and dangerous scale.
Thought we'd buried all that with Powell
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

Jim,
though you did get your fingers badly burnt on the Jo Cox thread with your tasteless, but very revealing intervention there.

You need to explain exactly what you mean.
What was wrong with my contribution, and do you think an obit thread is a place for a large cut and paste from a newspaper?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:44 AM

"Not a fact Jim.
Just a ludicrous assertion from you."


Keith - read as much as you can tolerate about "Britain First",
then consider the Brexit rhetoric that currently gives them a greater sense of purpose and legitimacy,
and likewise the tip of the Brexit iceberg that "Britain First" speak up for and represent....

Ideological and networking connections between the ultra far right wannabe militias and Boris's Brexit fan boy base,
are there for any reasonable objective observer to clearly recognise,
and in some regards as clear to see as a high powered searchlight... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:56 AM

" Not a fact Jim. Just a ludicrous assertion from you"

This seems pretty racist to most thinking people professor.

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-profoundly-unhappy-farage-11503175

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:20 AM

"You need to explain exactly what you mean."
No I don't - you damn well know what I'm referring to (or you should), as do those who protested at your distasteful remarks
Your apologising for your behaviour must rank as a Mudcat first!
I'm talking about your casting doubt as to why she was murdered - and you know it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM

G.K.Chestertons apposite words:

The gallows in my garden, people say,
Is new and neat and adequately tall;
I tie the noose on in a knowing way
As one that knots his necktie for a ball;
But just as all the neighbours on the wall
Are drawing a long breath to shout "Hurray!"
The strangest whim has seized me. . . After all
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

Remember, there's no going back...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:18 AM

And this could be the last lifeboat off the sinking ship for the next forty years.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:22 AM

If the British Film Industry still made Ealing Comedies
Boris would be the Ship's Captain who threw away the life boats, life belts, wireless, and rudder
because he was absolutely certain he didn't need them... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:29 AM

Well we have been beavering away for the best part of 53 years in the EU trying to reform it and what good has it done? It is still as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable now as it was back then - So you can ignore "Call-Me-Dave" and the Remainers chant that we have more influence if we are part of it - truth is that it has been proven beyond doubt that we have absolutely no influence at all with regard to the EU - we just happen to be one of the mugs paying for it.

21 years now since the entire Commission was forced to resign - the Delors Scandal - and not once in all that time have those who run the EU been able to balance the books and account for the money they have squandered. Mind you that is an improvement over the Delors days when they simply made no attempt to do any accounting at all they ran the EU along the same lines that Louis XIV ran France with the citizens of Europe being required to pay into this bottomless pit.

Since 2008 UK economy has grown 6.8%
Since 2008 the EU's economy has grown 1.9%

Unemployment in the UK runs at about 5%
Unemployment in the Eurozone runs at 10.2%

And this is what the Remain Brigade want to shackle us to??

60% of all the rules and regulations put before the Parliament of Westminster come from Brussels, from nameless and unelected EU officials and bureaucrats. I happen to think that our Parliament and our civil service have got better things to do.

Scenes over in Calais of "refugees" and "Immigrants" stoning trucks and cars and causing all sorts of chaos, shouting "F**K Britain" while they attempt to stop traffic to force their way onto trucks to get across the Channel to Britain - BIZARRE isn't the word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:35 AM

no going back...

No going back where Kevin? And who said so? I mean who said so that you could believe, who said so that had the authority to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:39 AM

What I really have trouble understanding on the EU issue, is why people are trying to discredit Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and David Cameron over it. Please search for the facts and not the dislike of personalities.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:48 AM

oh... please don't include Cameron with those two...

He may be an old etonian tory, but for the moment he's our old etonian tory... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:50 AM

Jim,
I'm talking about your casting doubt as to why she was murdered - and you know it.

She was certainly targeted for her views, as was Trump.
There is doubt in that we do not know if the killer and would be killer were insane or just political fanatics.

Being the victim of such an attack is not an endorsement of the victim's views.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

.. besides which.. It's Boris himself who's most of all turned this campaign into a pantomime of egotistical personality politics....!!!!! 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

Pfr, Brexit is a legitimate and respectable cause.
The fact that the far right seek to benefit from it does not de-ligitimise that cause.

Jim claimed, " the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies "

It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:58 AM

Pfr, Brexit is a legitimate and respectable cause.
The fact that the far right seek to benefit from it does not de-legitimise that cause.

Jim claimed, " the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies "

It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:00 PM

"It is still as corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable now as it was back then"
Sounds like any bank or financial institution you might care to mention.
How many of them have resigned - in fact we ended up paying them obscene bonuses to put right the harm they did.
"Unemployment in the UK runs at about 5%" and in that period
"Unemployment in the Eurozone runs at 10.2%"
This is a totally distorted comparison - Europe is not a single unit made up of different countries with different problems - Britain's 5% is part of Europe's 10.2% and not a separate comparable entity.
Europe's figure includes countries like Greece, with special problems which drive the Europe average up - they decided to stay in and attempt to solve the problem - the Brexit's want to do a runner - to where exactly?
This is typical of the distorted bullshit being peddled along with the racist garbage.
Leaving is more likely to drive up unemployment rather than to lessen it.
Britain can offer no extra jobs to those forced to come home.
"from nameless and unelected EU officials and bureaucrats"
More bullshit - you have been provided with an account of those appointed (from elected members) and how they are chosen.
They are selected exactly on the same basis the Prime minister, the cabinet and those serving on committees and enquiries are - on their ability and merit.
"Scenes over in Calais of "refugees" and "Immigrants" stoning trucks and cars and causing all sorts of chaos, shouting "F**K Britain"Scenes over in Calais of "refugees" and "Immigrants" stoning trucks and cars and causing all sorts of chaos, shouting "F**K Britain"
When there's nowhere else to go, there's always the racism to fall back on.
These are refugees and asylum seekers fleeing from wars and economic conditions we have helped to create - in our pursuit for slave-level produced good and oil and through our propping up and selling arms to despotic leaders.
We have a responsibility to these vicims of our greed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:26 PM

Sayin' it twice don't make it so, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

" Brexit is a legitimate and respectable cause."
The methods of campaigning for it are not - they are xenophobic bordering on open racism.
This campaign has even dragged fascist a fascist murderer and his supporter out of the woodwork.
"It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right."
you've had the links to the FASCISTS tactics.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:10 PM

Jim, you claimed, " the fact that the Brexit mob are heavily influenced by extremist right-wing, particularly racist policies "

It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right.
How would you support your assertion that it is?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:11 PM

No going back is blindingly clear. Even if in a few years what was left of the country applied to join again, and every single EU government was in favour, it couldn't be to the status quo. We'd have to sign up the the euro, Schengen area, no special perks. "Out' means out.

Whereas "remain", and if next year it looked like a mistake there would be a bsolutely nothing to stop the British government deciding to get out. They wouldn't even need to have a referendum, I think, just a majority of MPs thinking that was a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM

If the Brussels bureaucracy refuses to listen to the British public's concerns with a referendum gun held at its head by its second biggest contributor, what hope can there be that it will mend its ways if we vote to remain?

Now that is what I would call a good question.

The absolute mess that the Eurozone countries are in is shameful for an international organisation that claims to bring security and prosperity for all - Ask the youngsters in Greece, Italy, Cyprus, Spain, Portugal and France what the EU and the Euro have done for them.

"from nameless and unelected EU officials and bureaucrats"
More bullshit - you have been provided with an account of those appointed (from elected members) and how they are chosen.

Heh Heh if that is what you think that link of yours said then you Sir are a bigger F**Kin Idiot than I thought you were. Once again you prattle on about what you think it says not what it actually does say.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

Here is what the late Tony Benn said at the last UK Referendum on Europe:

"I can think of no body outside the Kremlin that has such power without a shred of accountability,"

He warned that Britain was signing up for something that was undemocratic and run in the interest of elites.

No wonder Jom is all for "Remain".

Our ancestors shed oceans of blood to uphold and defend this country's right to govern itself, pass its own laws, raise its own taxes and — most pertinently — get rid of politicians when they abuse our trust. Why on earth should we now want to belong to a dysfunctional club that denies us these rights — a club with an imploding economy, pursuing a frankly mad policy of open borders which, if not checked, will lead to violence between the ugly left and ugly Right across Europe?

53 years we have been in this "Club" that fears free trade with the rest of the world and fears competition it says that if we stay we stand a better chance of forging deals with the world - Perhaps someone can explain therefore why in those 53 years the EU has failed to negotiate any trade deal with:

America;
China;
India;
Brazil;
Japan.

We could negotiate our own deals with any or all of those countries long before the EU could.

Vote LEAVE and let's get out and join the world.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

"Well we have been beavering away for the best part of 53 years in the EU trying to reform it"

I don't think we have been. All the stuff about "reforming" the UK has been about the UK trying to negotiate variou sorts of special arrangements to suit it better. I'm not aware of any attempts by politicians from the UK to improve the way the EU operates for everyone.

I I'm not sure what efforts have been nade by others to oversome "the democracy deficit". But I'm pretty sure that any such would have been liable to be seen as edging towards a more federal system, and opposed by the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:41 PM

"It is not a fact that Brexit is influenced in any way by the far right."
Extreme right politics in the form of Xenophobia is Brexit.
Farage is a racist, Johnson is a racist, one of the leaders of the Brexit campaign has just been forced to resign because of her racist tweets - how could it fail to be influenced?
How would you support your assertion that it isn't?
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:49 PM

"Heh Heh if that is what you think that link of yours said then you Sir are a bigger F**Kin Idiot than I thought you were. Once again you prattle on about what you think it says not what it actually does say."

So much for the fancy that Jo Cox's murder might make foor more mutually respectful dialogue...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM

"Once again you prattle on about what you think it says not what it actually does say."
And once again you studiously avoid responding to what is put up and fail to offer anything yourself, leaving us with the dilemma of deciding on the written evidence or taking your word for it.
With your rack record - no contest.
Would you buy a used car from a raving, right-wing, blustering bully because he said it was a good runner?
How long are you going to keep this up - nobody believes a ****** word you say apart from yourself - Keith doesn't count in his present state of mind.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM

Mr Junkers has tonight stated that EU rules regarding the UK will NOT be reformed.

You are all voting on a false premise........Cameron lied when he said that the EU could be reformed.

So you are voting to retain what is there, a corrupt undemocratic shambles, which has ruined most of Europe and will eventually do the same for the UK.

Open your eyes and take a look at what is actually happening politically and economically all over the Eurozone.
Then go out and vote LEAVE.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM

The reforms the EU primarily needs are not "the EU rules regarding the UK". What would be good would be changes to the role of MEPs and the commissioners, and to the way legislation is initiated and agreed and modified - more clearly democratic institutions. And the arrangements about the banking system and so forth. And the way trade treaties such as TTTP get negotiated, and excessive and innappropriate secrecy.

Work in trying to get those changes has hardly started. And the prime movers in getting those kind of things won't be national governments, it will be transnational alliances of political movements.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

Listening to politicians on the referendum trail talking about "voters still making up their minds" it struck me that in this case any making up their mind is by definition unsure about the wisdom of Brexit, and this should imply rejecting it, even if they aren't sure about Remain. The point being, Brexit is irreversable, Remain is essentially provisional.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:49 PM

So, when will we hear election results?
I like the idea of the UK being part of the EU. It makes travel easier by a lot. A unified currency would also help us travelers, but I can understand why an nation might not want to adopt the Euro.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:57 PM

We should have the result well before breakfast on Friday our time. So if you go to bed late on Thursday you might get it. If they bother to put it on the news.

I suspect we pay a lot more attention to your elections than you do to ours. (Not you Joe perhaps.)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:06 PM

Joe Offer wrote: So, when will we hear election results?
I like the idea of the UK being part of the EU. It makes travel easier by a lot. A unified currency would also help us travelers, but I can understand why an nation might not want to adopt the Euro.

-Joe-

Do us a favour Joe. You might like the idea but we will have to live with the results. Do you actually understand what we who wish to leave see as the deficienties of the EU?

The results are expected early Friday morning UK time. I'm hoping for leave and I have no big fears regarding the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:47 PM

Yes, Stanron, I actually do understand the pros and cons of the UK presence in the EU. Many Americans have far more international sophistication than you give us credit for.
Ease of travel is the primary issue that affects me directly, since I spend a lot of time in Europe and the UK. I won't take a position on other facets of the issue, because I see both sides.
BBC news comes on at midnight here in California. Sounds like I'll have a good chance of learning the outcome tonight.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 08:54 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

Listening to politicians on the referendum trail talking about "voters still making up their minds" it struck me that in this case any making up their mind is by definition unsure about the wisdom of Brexit, and this should imply rejecting it, even if they aren't sure about Remain. The point being, Brexit is irreversable, Remain is essentially provisional."
REALLY, do you honestly think that you will get another referendum on the subject?, if the vote is Remain, which it will be.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:36 PM

Do you actually understand what we ... see as the deficienties of the EU?

Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:19 PM

If we actually ever do want another referendum we can get one. The same people who pushed for this referendum will do still be there determined to get another one. There are no constitutional barriers to that, and it is entirely a matter for this country to decide, and this will always be the case under the treaties that underpin the EU.
.............
Obviously those who want to see the Leave vote succeeding will be confident that everything will go well after leaving, Stanron, otherwise they wouldn't vote that way.

Those voting to Remain will be made up not only of those who are confident in the success of the EU, but also those who do not share Stanron's optimism about the inevitable benefits of leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 01:36 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 22 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM

The reforms the EU primarily needs are not "the EU rules regarding the UK". What would be good would be changes to the role of MEPs and the commissioners, and to the way legislation is initiated and agreed and modified - more clearly democratic institutions.

Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that - today we have a chance to get out of a system that is clearly ruining Europe economically and one that you see as being undemocratic, unrepresentative and totally lacking in transparency - yet you will vote to remain - mind you having just read back through that it doesn't sound all that different to the UK Labour Party.

It would appear that you want an organisation that cannot produce a signed off audited set of accounts to oversee and control the European Banking System - rather like putting the fox in charge of the hencoop.

As for the way the EU negotiates trade deals, as I have previously detailed - they haven't negotiated any which is why the Eurozone is stagnating and under dire threat. Years of work with no result because collectively the EU is protectionist, against free trade with the world and scared stiff of competition, which is bad for us and bad for the third world.

The EU is secretive because it is hopelessly inefficient, corrupt and unaccountable.

Work in trying to get those changes has hardly started. And the prime movers in getting those kind of things won't be national governments, it will be transnational alliances of political movements.

Other than UKIP out bursts openly critical of the EU in the EU Parliament I would dearly like to see any evidence of anyone trying to get those changes of yours advanced. Political movements within the EU Parliament are powerless they have voice but no power or clout. The Commission has the power (The UK's last two Commissioners have never been elected to any office and had no experience in Government yet there they were at the heart of the EU making laws and enforcing them) not the Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 01:41 AM

So, it's 0633 in the UK on Thursday, 23 June. I listened to BBC on our local public radio station, and the BBC reported that the polls were going to open - and I expected that the polls would have been closed for quite some time by the time I was listening. In the U.S., the news agencies would have called the election, often basing their predictions on 25% of the total vote. And oftentimes, U.S. candidates will concede to their opponent after only 25% of are counted.

I found a page titled How the BBC reports EU referendum polling day. Apparently, the BBC does not get into this crazy business of shoestring predictions. They don't report election results until they have a good measure of certainty.

It may surprise some of you across the pond, but many of us Americans think that other nations do many things better than we do.

So, I can wait for the election results. I think the BBC policy is a better way of doing things.

-Joe-

Dang. I post this on what I thought was Thursday night, but it was only Wednesday. Guess I have to wait another 24 hours. Vote wisely, friends.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:18 AM

Come on, fellow Brits of the more sane persuasion. Get up, vote early, vote often, VOTE IN!! 🇪🇺

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:03 AM

"Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that"
Yopur bullying, blustering and fascistt behaviour and Keith's attitude to the killing of Jo Cox is as good a reason as I can think of for voting to stay - confirmation enough that Brexit is firmly in the hands of right-wing extremists.
I'm interested to see that Joe, as an administrator, should visit this thread to post and not comment on your contemptuous behaviour towards other members, particularly as he was the one to bring up childish name-calling - seems like only yesterday that threads were dropping like flies - argument is one thing, persistent abuse is another.
I really don't wish to pester Max with a formal complaint as things stand at present but enough is enough!
Please put a stop to your permanently abusive postings - if you find yourself unabe to do so of your own volition, perhaps there is someone out there who cares enough about this forum to assist you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:18 AM

Wow.

Hi Joe. There would be no passport change for US citizens visiting Europe and the UK if the UK votes to leave. There is an area of Europe called the Schengen area where EU citizens can travel without a passport. The UK is not in the Schengen area. No visa is required for a visit of less than 90 days.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:26 AM

Jim, I just can't seem to bring myself to be bothered by the likes of Keith and Akenaton. I've never been able to figure out what all the fuss is about. I'm the Music editor, and I don't do moderation work in the non-music threads unless it's a topic I want to keep open like the Easter Rising and the logic thread.

Sorry, but I just don't understand what's so bad about Keith.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM

let us clarify a few points, it is a myth about peace in Europe, we had a serbian croatian conflict[geographically europe] we have had an ongoing war in cyprus[ despite being in the EU. GREECE is a member, so there has been a war between a member state and a country[with a bad human rights record] which could well become a member.. Turkey.
if Trump gets elected and decides to start a world war, or if Putin decides to do this being in europe will make no difference.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:47 AM

"Sorry, but I just don't understand what's so bad about Keith."
My point concerns Teribus's permanently abusing and disparaging everybody who disagrees with him in the most insulting terms - it is little short of cyber-bullying, it's unpleasant and it fouls up otherwise interesting, if occasionally fractious genuine exchanges of opinion.
You were the one who called for an end to childish name-calling - we've made an effort - this clown continues to strut and bluster.
There is nothing wrong with passionate argument - bring it on, it peppers up a discussion, but abusive insulting goes far beyond that - it's like being back in the schoolyard at playtime - the Easter Rising was a prime example.
I think most of us have the measure of what Ake and Keith stand for and are well able to deal with it (except when Keith attempts to block aspects of discussion that don't suit, as he regularly does) - but that can be dealt with too without recourse to intervention.
If it is the job of overseers to keep all us kids in line, that has to mean all of us - it only takes one spoiled brat to feck it up for the rest of us.
Sorry for involving you, didn't really know where to turn short of going to teh headmaster, but this is open and deliberate nastiness is getting beyond a joke.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:14 AM

Dick
The Serbo Croation conflict happened long before those countries became members of the E.U., Cyprus is at peace (sort of) - border disputes are not warfare.
Turkey is an interesting point - its membership has been blocked until it cleans up its human rights - a case for Europe rather than against it.
In the present situation Europe has to be regarded as a stop-gap rather than a permanent solution - I wouldn't trust any of the bastards inside or outside of the Union.
Would you seriously consider destabalising the security of Irish kids working abroad if Ireland's membership was under consideration?
In the case of Putin and Trump - in or out doesn't make the slightest difference either way, in or out, so why not take what's on offer anyway?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 06:44 AM

"My point concerns Teribus's permanently abusing and disparaging everybody who disagrees with him in the most insulting terms"

Ah Jom perhaps you could explain to everyone why it would appear in your eyes perfectly acceptable on this forum for you to be allowed to call someone a "loutish boor" and to fling insults about right, left and centre, then promptly demand that name calling should be stopped.

As I said previously you are very good at dishing it out but not very good at taking it.

I have long happened to think that you are a complete and utter f**kin idiot and have pointed out on numerous occasions the reasons why I think so.

I generally tend to treat folks as they treat me.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM

"I generally tend to treat folks as they treat me."
Nobody other than you consistently talks down to people in the sneary way that you do "Ah Jom ".
My "loutsh boor" was a direct reference to your behaviour in an attempt to stop it, which, it is obvious you have no intention of doing
"I have long happened to think that you are a complete and utter f**kin idiot"
You really have no control of your behaviour - do you
As far as I am concerned your out-of-control arrogance is a deliberate attempt to wreck threads.
You have made my point perfectly - thanks for that at least!
Your behaviour has no place on a public forum - not my decision, of course.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:40 AM

"Good heavens Kevin I do hope that that idiot Carroll reads that - today we have a chance to get out of a system that is clearly ruining Europe economically and one that you see as being undemocratic, unrepresentative and totally lacking in transparent"

No we aren"t. Everything you say there is also true of the system we are stuck inside the UK, and it will probably get a lot worse if we leave the EU.

Both systems need reform, and can be reformed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:52 AM

right or wrong, win or lose... the one most prominent characteristic of this campaign as I've seen it,
is the culture of arrogance and condescension amongst the LEAVE leadership.....????? 😣

Cameron may be an old etonian tory toff..
but at least he displays a reasonable degree of humility and humane likability.....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:54 AM

Not true in any respect, Schweik, I am afraid to say.

Serbia nor Croatia are members of the EU. As for Cyprus, there is no "war". The island is partitioned between the Cypriot Republic, which is a member of EU, and a statelet in North Cyprus which is not, and which is not recognised by anyone, except Turkey, which is of course not in the EU.

The very fact that Turkey recognises North Cyprus is a guarantee that, so long as that is the case, it will not be given EU membership, even if all the other conditions it would have to satisfy were met - which is a very long way from happening.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:10 AM

After watching the lunchtime news..

how's the overnight flooding in London & South East likely to affect polling, and announcement of a result...???

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

I think quite a lot of the stuff you talk about there, Joe, would be illegal here. So long as any of the polling stations are open, it's against the law for anyone to report on exit polls or what any local counts might show.

Your situation where candidates might concede in the light of what's happened in the East before people in California or Hawaii have voted would be quite impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:21 AM

"the one most prominent characteristic of this campaign...."
Almost Pfr
Win or lose, this campaign will be remembered for the murder of a gentle, dedicated and moderate politician and the rising tide of xenophobic hatred generated by those who wish to leave.
I've just been somewhat gobsmacked to learn that this is only the third nation-wide referendum ever to be held in British history - whatever happened to "by the people"?
They're as regular as the dawn chorus here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:39 AM

"...by the people" was not a British quote, tho, Jim; it was Abe Lincoln, you will remember. Referenda have only very recently been used here in UK. Previously they were not part of our system: the govt claimed a mandate from their parliamentary majority; and in extreme cases, if defeated in a vote in parliament as with R MacDonald in the 30s, would settle controversies by resigning & "going to the people", ie calling an election. Referenda, aka plebiscites, were traditionally mistrusted as the means by which such continental rulers as Louis-Philippe, Bismarck, et al, would purport to have mandates, which were never regarded here as very trustworthy.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:41 AM

Let us know when you've voted, y'all!

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:47 AM

I voted several hours ago. A lady behind the desk said they had had a good turn out. A lot better than the local council elections a month or so ago.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:03 AM

My mum is the same age as MGM·Lion [a month older actually]..

She prides herself on never having missed an election, except for the recent Police and Crime Commissioner Elections,
as she was quite ill with bronchitis & confusion since January.

I'm about to catch a train to spend the afternoon with her.
The plan being if the weather is not too bad, we'll try and walk the 1/4 mile or so to the polling station.

She lives in an extremely conservative part of SW England, so knows her vote has been futile for most of her life,
But she believes voting to be her privilege and duty...

Mum jokes about the tories dragging their elder voters from their death beds on polling days..

Must remember her reading glasses so she doesn't put her "X" in the wrong box....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:19 AM

A moment of light-heartedness: I read an account of some of the polling stations being closed because of flooding. And then, a few paragraphs later and apparently by accident, they said the result would depend upon the floating voters.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:21 AM

"was not a British quote, tho, Jim; it was Abe Lincoln,"
I do know that Mike - I thought it applied to Britain in principle too - maybe not!!
I have no doubt whatever referenda were mistrusted by them upstairs - wonder what would happen in Britain if the held a referendum on whether to make them part of the system!!!
They managed to to put Ireland somewhere into the latter half of the 20th century, regarding homosexuality a couple of years ago - some way to go yet and who knows, maybe we will live long enough to see one make a difference regarding pregnancy termination (one the bulldog-grip of the church is loosened, of course).
If they are untrustworthy, why is H.M.G. holding one on such an important issue today, one wonders!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

I've never understood why they prefer a X to a tick. In most situations a X indicates you are rejecting something, whereas a tick means you support it.

In practice I believe the practice is to accept a tick as an indication you are in favour. But I wouldn't chance it, because officially it's against the rules.

At least we don't have to worry about hanging chads...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:56 AM

"At least we don't have to worry about hanging chads..."
?????
Chads used to be a famous speedway team in Liverpool when I was very young - sure you don't mean 'chavs'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:03 AM

"Everything you say there is also true of the system we are stuck inside the UK, and it will probably get a lot worse if we leave the EU.

Both systems need reform, and can be reformed."

If that is the case then it will be quicker and easier to fix our system on our own away from meddling from 27 other opinions and suggestions as to what needs doing and the best way of doing it. Like their barmy idea with the Euro - one size most certainly does not fit all - even the German Banker who came up with the idea stated quite clearly that the single currency HAD TO BE PRECEDED by full political union otherwise it would not work - he was right the Eurozone is in dire trouble.

Another reason for voting leave if you actually believe what you write in your posts to this forum. The UK system CAN be fixed by political action, the entire system is elected - for political action to do the same in the EU there has to be massive simultaneous conversion in 28 countries to get the European Council thinking along the same lines. That has to coincide with the end of a Commission so the right candidates are put forward and the right President of the Commission is chosen. Timings and reality mean that it will never happen.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:24 AM

I don't know how far the kind of reforms needed have to be be agreed by all governments, or just by a majority of MEPs, and nor do you. I would suspect that in respect of some significaant aspects the latter is the case.

Any way there's no point in arguing about this kind of stuff at this point. My essential point is that the "reforms" Cameron has been unable to get just were totally irrelevant to what is actually needed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:04 PM

"I don't know how far the kind of reforms needed have to be be agreed by all governments, or just by a majority of MEPs, and nor do you. I would suspect that in respect of some significant aspects the latter is the case."

I am very surprised that you are so completely unaware of the limitation of power of the European Parliament. You speak as though they can alter how the EU is run - simply put they cannot as they have little say in how it is run:

"Neither the Parliament nor the Council have the power of legislative initiative. In Community matters, this is a power uniquely reserved for the European Commission (the executive). Therefore, while Parliament can amend and reject legislation, to make a proposal for legislation, it needs the Commission to draft a bill before anything can become law

Exactly the opposite is how the Westminster Parliament is run with Bills being introduced by elected members of the Commons, or very occasionally by sitting Lords, then after having been debated and discussed through three cycles in both Commons and Lords the Bill is then passed to the Civil Service to be codified, formally drawn up and sent to receive Royal Assent where upon it becomes law.

Are the EU Commission's 28 members "elected" MEPs - NO THEY ARE NOT - All 28 are nominees put forward by their respective Governments (The last two put forward by the UK have never been elected to any political office in their lives) The Parliament gets to elect the President of the Commission from a list given them by the European Council (If that list has only one candidate then there is no choice at all) The European Parliament cannot object to or refuse any single candidate nominated and put forward by his/her Government, they can only vote on the Commission as a body - again no real power, they are there to rubber stamp the proceedings, nothing more.

Any reform has to be agreed by all Governments who then somehow have to convince the Commission, whose sworn task it is to look towards what is beneficial to the Community (i.e. Themselves), to introduce the reform Bill, the MEPs only get to look at it after it has been written.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM

it will soon be over my prediction is 54 percent for remain

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM

There's a piece that played on National Public Radio in the US titled Britain's 'Brexit' Vote Has Echoes Of The U.S. Presidential Race. An excerpt:

The key politicians championing these arguments on either side of the Atlantic are Nigel Farage of the nationalist U.K. Independence Party and Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee. Trump has talked about banning Muslims from entering the U.S. and about Mexican "rapists" crossing the border. Last week, Farage unveiled a billboard of a photo of a line of hundreds of refugees. "Breaking Point," the billboard read.

"I'd put them in the same box," said Elizabeth Evans, a county councilor with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, chatting on the street one afternoon in Aberystwyth, a small city on the Welsh coast. Evans says Farage, like Trump, is a charismatic populist who has tapped into public frustration.

I get the impression from discussion here that it's not only the UKIP that is promoting "Brexit." I've heard all the arguments, but it's hard to tell from here who's supporting "Brexit," and who's supporting "Bremain."

I was born in 1948, and I can remember a time when people in the U.S. thought that periodic wars in Europe were inevitable. I lived in Berlin in 1972-73 - I guess you could say I was surrounded by the Iron Curtain for two years, but I did get a chance to leave Berlin 20 times in the 20 months I was there, and I saw a lot of Europe. My feeling at the time was that periodic European war was still inevitable.

I didn't return to Europe until I retired in 1999, and I've visited Europe a couple of weeks or more every year since then. As the EU came to be, I've seen a lot of improvements, especially in the poorer countries. Wealthier EU nations may resent the money being spent in Ireland and Spain and Greece and other nations; but as an outsider, I can see how much it adds to the stability and security of Europe. I've also been amazed at how easy it is for Europeans to work in multiple countries. As a traveler, I've found the Euro very helpful, and I've found it annoying that I can't use Euros in the UK.

And through the years, it has seemed to me that the EU has taken wiser stands on international issues than the U.S. has.

In many ways, the EU is an ideal that is far from being completely fulfilled - but while the EU exists, the dream can still exist. I don't know that the withdrawal of the UK will mean the end of the EU, but it's certainly a deadly blow.

So, I can see many shortcomings of the EU, and I understand the frustration with the bureaucracy and immigration and all; but I'd hate to see the EU collapse. I'm much rather see the UK put its energy into fixing what's wrong with the EU.

I'm sure it's true that as a foreigner, I have an idealized view of the EU, but maybe it's not a bad idea to dream of ideals and work to achieve them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:59 PM

A European Commissioner is a member of the 28-member European Commission. Each Member within the Commission holds a specific portfolio, and the Commission is led by thePresident of the European Commission. In simple terms they are the equivalent of national ministers
Each Commissioner is first nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President, although the President holds little practical power to force a change in candidate. .
The more capable the candidate is, the more likely the Commission President will assign them a powerful portfolio, the distribution of which is entirely at his discretion. The President's team is then subject to hearings at the European Parliament which will question them and then vote on their suitability as a whole. If members of the team are found to be inappropriate, the President must then reshuffle the team or request a new candidate from the member state or risk the whole Commission being voted down. As Parliament cannot vote against individual Commissioners there is usually a compromise whereby the worst candidates are removed but minor objections are put aside so the Commission can take office. Once the team is approved by parliament, it is formally put into office by the European Council.
It should be noted however that although Members of the Commission are allocated between member-states they do not represent their states; instead they are supposed to act in European interests.
Normally a member-state will nominate someone of the same political party as that which forms the government of the day. There are exceptions such as Member of the Commission Burke (of Fine Gael) was nominated by Taoiseach Haughey (of Fianna Fáil), or where larger states had two seats, they often went to the two major parties such as in the United Kingdom.
In addition to its role in approving a new Commission, the European Parliament has the power at any time to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. This requires a vote that makes up at least two-thirds of those voting and a majority of the total membership of the Parliament. While it has never used this power, it threatened to use it against the Commission headed by Jacques Santer in 1999 over allegations of corruption. In response, the Santer Commission resigneden masse of its own accord, the only time a Commission has done so.
....... European Parliament president Jerzy Buzek proposed in 2010 that Commissioners be directly elected, by member states placing their candidate at the top of their voting lists in European elections. That would give them individually, and the body as a whole, a democratic mandate.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
The European commission is little different than the manner in which the British Parliamentary system is structured; the commissioners are appointed by the member state just as the cabinet is appointed by the Prime Minister.
The main difference is that the Commission is answerable to the Union as a whole so they cannot impose any particular political party agenda.
Academic anyway, Teribus's 'Brave New World' would have us all answerable to the State (Classic Fascism by definition) , even above the interests of the individuals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:01 PM

The MEPs has to approve the candidate for President nominated by the European Council made up of heads of government. It could refuse to approve them.

That is a significant power, if exercised in an effective power. Initiating legislation is by no means the only significant way of exerting power. After all, very little of the legislation in the House of Commons is actually initiated by the members as a whole - it is handed down by the government, and processed through parliament by it's agents. The power to approve and reject legislation is a very significant power.

The thing is, if the vote is Out, this isn't anything to do with us. If it is Remain, it becomes significant. There'll be problems ahead. But making the system we've got here even as much as it is didn't come easy.

Often enough what matters isn't the formal structure, it's how it gets used.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:07 PM

If the UK exits the EU, how easy or how difficult will it be for UK musicians to perform in Europe? It's expensive and complicated for European musicians to get a visa to perform in the U.S., although U.S. musicians don't seem to have that much difficulty performing in the UK and Europe.

It seems like it's more difficult for U.S. musicians to perform in Canada, than it is for them to perform in Europe. That may be just a matter of perception. U.S. musicians may want to go to Canada to do a gig or two because it's so easy to travel there, but they resent having to get a work permit. It may be just as hard to get a work permit to perform in Europe, but Americans don't go to Europe for just one or two gigs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM

answerable to the State (Classic Fascism by definition)
.,,.
Classic Socialism likewise – that point on the horseshoe where the L/R extremes meet!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:42 PM

Joe says:

If the UK exits the EU, how easy or how difficult will it be for UK musicians to perform in Europe?

Impossible to know. What sort of Visa requirements might be imposed by either size is an utter unknown. Those on the 'Leave' side, may claim that everything will be fine, but they're only guessing...

McGrath says:

I've never understood why they prefer a X to a tick. In most situations a X indicates you are rejecting something, whereas a tick means you support it.

I assume that it goes back to the time when an 'X' was used by the illiterate to show assent to a written document. Whether that predates it's use for an answer being wrong, I know not.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:44 PM

I don't see why there should be any difference so far as the US and the EU are concerned. The US and all EU members will still have precisely the same status relative to each other, whatever that is.

If Britain ceases to be a EU member that would no longer be the case. Some new arrangement would need to be worked out. And the same would go for UK citizens in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

Or possibly:

'X marks the spot'

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:48 PM

You had already posted that screed a couple of hours ago, Jim. Is your memory playing trick - or your WP?

---

Mudcat has been double-posting a lot lately. I deleted quadruplet posts earlier today. I'll delete Jim's duplicate.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

I don't know why, but all my life, it has been difficult for me to make a tick mark and fit it into a box. I can mark a box with an "x" very easily, but tick marks confound me. I don't know if it's left-handedness or a basic lack of coordination - I plead guilty to both. I can type and I can print, but I have difficulty with cursive writing. Maybe there's a tie to my tick mark disability.

Occasionally, I have had papers and ballots and questionnaires returned to me for correction because I used "x" instead of tick marks.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:23 PM

If LEAVE win.. where will the first concentration camps be situated...???

.. just asking because thee's a big empty filed down the road from my mum's house
that's been on the market for ages.......

...and my mum is very friendly and chatty and would be down there making tea and sandwiches for all the interned foreigners and dissidents... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM

Looks like this should be a good place to get results:

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-36570120

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:36 PM

Wow. 4:32 am. 72% Turnout. 52% leave.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:39 PM

Don't at all see your point, pfr [yes, I know it was meant ironically & as a joke, but even so]. There was a time, you know, tho nobody here seems to recall it, before we ever joined the unmentionable institution under consideration; during which benighted Dark Age I fail to recall any facilities wherein any alien who happened to have had the temerity to set foot on these shores might be interned or incarcerated (apart, obviously, from the emergency regulations in force during WWii). So, leaving aside considerations of sarcasm and jocularity, what was your point precisely?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:46 AM

Well, it looks like "leave" has won at 51.8%.

A quote I came across: Would be a hell of a thing if this ends with a united Ireland and independent Scotland in the EU and a diminished England outside of it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:59 AM

1: The people of Northern Ireland have to want a united Ireland before there is any referendum on any change. What any political party says on the matter is irrelevant.

2: The question before the Scots remains the same as it did in 2014 when they said NO to independence. Scotland's biggest trading partner will still be England {80% of Scotland's trade}, there is no short term prospect of a massive hike in the price of oil, Scotland will have to apply for membership of the EU and they will have no interim currency but under current EU rules they would ultimately have to take on the Euro.

Perhaps DMcG will have some comment on people accepting the democratic will of the people, he certainly had fairly definite views on that when he thought that the vote would be to Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:05 AM

So what's your view on the fact that just 24% of registered electors put a cross next to a Tory candidate in the 2015 general election?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:10 AM

YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom.   Congratulations to the Brexit voters here.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 03:58 AM

YES !!!! ............ er................. NO !!!!

Yesterday I got 1.30 Euro to the pound, today you can get 1.24 Euro to the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:00 AM

"The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom"
Oh dear - the beast has risen.
The racist nature of the Out campaign and the hairline gap between the yes and no vote gives cause for immediate alarm, certainly not celebration for anybody - who on earth can be happy with a Britain split right down the middle?
A divided and disillusioned Germany gave birth to the Nazi Party - lets hope somebody can get that nice Mr Farrage and Boris the Braindead into their straitjackets before they can do any real damage.
All we need is Trump the Trumpeter in the White House and the rightist nutters will have their 'three-of-a-kind.
"Freedom"....... you read like a bad phrase from Game of Thrones'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:06 AM

Obviously that 24% was enough to win the number of Parliamentary seats required - that is our system and had it been a Labour Government returned by the same margin you would have had no problem with it. All the wailing and gnashing of teeth about proportional representation is just so much "magpie chatter" another referendum in 2011 put paid to that system being introduced by two votes to one.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:08 AM

Now down to 1.23 Euro to the pound

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM


Perhaps DMcG will have some comment on people accepting the democratic will of the people, he certainly had fairly definite views on that when he thought that the vote would be to Remain

Ok, let's take the bits of that one by one.

a) I do accept the democratic will of the people.

b) I said that I didn't think Brexiters would stop campaigning to exit the EU is we voted in, especially if the margin was narrow. I still think that would have been the case, because it doesn't need anyone else's agreement to write newspaper articles or whatever. And, as McGrath pointed out, even if we had voted in there was always the possibility of another vote in ten, or twenty or forty years. The reverse doesn't apply: no-one sees a way back into the EU except with the agreement with every other member, and that's not going to happen in any way I can imagine.

b) I never said I thought Remain would win.   Yet again, Teribus, you can't sort out 'would' and 'could'. I hoped it would, certainly. I thought it could, definitely.

c) My other main comment was that I thought we should listen to the experts who were predicting a crash. So far, sterling has fallen to the lowest level since 1985 and there was a drop in the FSTE of over £100bn dollars in minutes. Ok, it may bounce back over the next few days, or it may not. Only time will tell on that one.

d) Irrespective of all that, we have an obligation to make the best of where we are now.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:22 AM

Apologies for "£100billion dollars". I didn't mean to mix currencies like that. Perhaps I should just paste this from the Telegraph:

£137bn wiped off UK stocks within minutes

The FTSE 100 is now down 8.3pc, meaning £137bn has been wiped off UK blue chip stocks within minutes of markets opening this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:57 AM

Hi

<" YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom.   Congratulations to the Brexit voters here.">

I don't often agree with Ake's views but today I do. The people have spoken and perhaps all parties will note the strength of feeling especially in the North West.

Cameron's gone and Our MP Osborne has been conspicuous by his absence since his wild threats.

Don't expect quick change and there will be bumps on the way.

Cheers

Mikel2




a

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:08 AM

" I never said I thought Remain would win."

Doesn't wash DMcG you commented on Leave voters accepting a decision to Remain - under such circumstances which side has won the referendum? My powers of deduction tend towards a win for Remain.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:12 AM

Hi

Just got 126.4 Euros to pound. Had to shop around a bit.

Cheers MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM

"Classic Socialism likewise – that point on the horseshoe where the L/R extremes meet! "
One ogf the great myths Mike.
Socialism is based on using the state to abolish ("wither away") the state - read Lenin's State and Revolution (a pamphlet on the basic tenets of Socialism in regard to the state).
The difference between Socialism proper and Syndicalism is that the former sees the state as temporary while that latter (impractically in my view) wished to abolish the state from the start.
Fascism it a world where all are subservient to a permanent state - Teribus's arguments being a fine example.
The abandonment of those tenets led to the Stalins andd Ceaușescus, just as the abandonment of the principals of democracy have led to the inequalities and injustices of Capitalism
You are a one for clichés, aren't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:29 AM

" I never said I thought Remain would win."

Doesn't wash DMcG you commented on Leave voters accepting a decision to Remain - under such circumstances which side has won the referendum? My powers of deduction tend towards a win for Remain.

As I said, I had a preference - indeed a strong preference - for Remain to win. That is a totally different thing to "thinking it will win". I have a strong preference for winning the lottery as well.. and knowing I could ... and hoping I will ...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:33 AM

Oh well, at lest Donald Trump is happy.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:37 AM

I'm interested MikeL you say you got 126.4 to the pound was that before or after commission where did you get that price.

The figures I gave were after commission.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM

"YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom."

The road to freedom? Good god man.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM

From: Stu - PM
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:42 AM

"YES!!!!    The backlash has started, the UK is on the road to freedom."

The road to freedom? Good god man.

Yes, God is indeed good.

The result is also good, and unlike the results of the general election clearly shows the will of the majority of those who felt strongly enough (either way) to express a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

the abandonment of the principals of democracy have led to the inequalities and injustices of Capitalism
You are a one for clichés, aren't you?
.,,.

Does anyone else find this, addressed to me from Jim, as hilariously ironic [or ironically hilarious] as I do?

As usual, the gr8 democrats, the Shaws & Carrolls et al, are demonstrating their enormous ❤❤❤ for democracy -- just as long as the δεμος do exactly what said Carrolls & Shaws think they should... Talk about bad losers [in US I believe you say 'sore losers']. And what on earth has Mr Shaw's niggling non-point about the %·age demographic of the last General Election have to do with the matter in ☛, does he think?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:38 AM

A good result for the old white folk who had a free education, have left the younger generations with debt, denied the, the right to move between 27 countries freely, study and work in them; entire futures have been denied. A good result for xenophobes, climate change deniers and those who are happy to let workers rights slip further back towards those of the Victorians.

The old white people have swapped one elite for another, rejected equality for all citizens, embraced austerity and have also green-lit the fracture of the union. Worst of all, they have sold the younger generations again, against the wishes of younger people in an act of myopic selfishness.

Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

"Does anyone else find this, addressed to me from Jim, as hilariously ironic [or ironically hilarious] as I do?"
Hilarious but unanswerable apparently Mike as these things usually are.
"As usual, the gr8 democrats, the Shaws & Carrolls et al, are demonstrating their enormous ❤❤❤ for democracy"
You mean as opposed to those who regard the domain of the better off, the priveleged and those of the right colour and religious persuasion - no question of that.
This campaign was based on hatred an Xenophobia - the economic effects were apparent within hours of the result being announced.
Just been listening to an economist predicting on the likelihood of countries investing in Britain now looking elsewhere to re-invest in more stable economies.
"Yes, God is indeed good."
I do wish that these Christians extended their 'Christianity' as far as the consequences that this "good" result will most certainly have on human beings in trouble, particularly the refugees fleeing from poverty in countries that the wealthy west has helped to create by its constant search for chap goods and fuel.
Or the asylum seekers that will be returned to war zones in wars wars we have helped to create by our actions and inaction.
This whole campaign has been an indication that the world is swinging sharply to the extreme right - as if some of us didn't know it already.
Jo Cox was preparing a report on right wing extremism in Britain at the time of her death - following her murder, the right-wing websites were buzzing with praise for her "heroic" murderer.
The right-wing inhumanity has shown itself in some of the arguments here - some I would expect, others I find disappointing being from people who I would have thought, should know better considering their undoubted knowledge of the effects of right wing extremism on humanity.
Happy to put up with your jibes Mike, knowing your soft spot for the nearest thing Britain ever had for a Fascist prime minister.
Now - where did I put my "grumpy 'democratic' leftie" tee-shirt - mustn't get a chill in my "liberal bleeding heart".
You are as much a stereotype as your less-educated friends - Golding's 'Flies" got it just about right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:06 AM

A good result?

Sterling tanks worse than 1985.

Already a backtrack on pledge to divert funds to NHS.

Young lose chances to work abroad.

Politics of lies, division, and racism prevails.

Majority rule does not guarantee truth, justice or wisdom. Sure, out had a majority. But more people voted on each side than elected the PM and now where is control and democracy if he is replaced by an unelected heir apparent Tory leader?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM

Fascinating to watch the fallout of this result on the news.
Cameron resigned, talk of a new Scottish independence referendum and a border poll on Irish unity, both of whom produced significant majorities to remain.
What has also emerged was that this extremely slim majority was down to how the soft-underbelly of England voted, the South-East.-
All-in-all, we have a possibility of the break-up of The United Kingdom and a divided Britain
Johnson talks about there being no hurry to leave until Britain re-negotiates its contracts with its trading partners - now that will be interesting.
Great result indeed - and it's only just turned one o'clock!.!!!
Racist, xenophobic blind stupidity - as was stated quite clearly by a passing tradesman on the streets of London - though the ones with the posh voices tended to speak differently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:35 AM

the UK is on the road to freedom.

Give it a few years, Ake - and you'll be talking out of the other side of your mouth.

The Trumpistas have infected the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 AM

Its only good news for the 1%.
BBC 1 was hilarious in their CNNesque coverage.
False feelings about heritage and the days of yore probably skewed the vote.
Your new Independence day will bear more similarity to the movie with aliens making silent back room deals regarding trade with a handful of British insiders.

Please do not blame each other. It was the American Wall Street that greedily started this desperation and feeling of powerlessness.

No matter what the vote revealed, this is all part of the blowback from financial theft by billionaires 10 years ago.

There is more than enough "fear of the other" to destabilize things for the next 10 years.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:50 AM

... and just as my wife was starting to enjoy watching football,
now she is is very perplexed, depressed and ashamed to be Welsh...!!! 😢

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:53 AM

Not exactly a 'jibe', Jim. Just amused by your rehearsal of a concept which, however accurate, was a manifest cliché, followed by a denunciation of my use of what you chose to observe as clichés. On general topic, we shall obviously differ — nothing new there!

Best regards anyhow. By train of thought - Hope the N&Q article on "Married in Green" that I sent you arrived safely.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:54 AM

Less of the "old white folk" please. Plenty of us voted to stay in.

Trump's enthusiastic response is embarrassing for most Brexiters , I imagine. No doubt Putin will be next, and Mugabe after that. I suppose people can't help their friends.

Let's all hope the worst fears of the In campaign will not come to pass. The plummeting value of the pound is not too encouraging in that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:06 AM

" Hope the N&Q article on "Married in Green" that I sent you arrived safely."
Sorry Mike - yes, got it this morning - it lay on an absent neighbors doormat for a couple of days.
Many thanks - will be in touch -
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:17 AM

"The Trumpistas have infected the British Isles."

No Greg, I think you'll find it's The Murdochistas.

And as one of the 'Old White People', Stu, I did no such thing - I, and the vast majority of my friends, voted 'Remain'. We didn't all fall for the jingoistic, slogan-driven bullshite of the 'Leave' campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:22 AM

I voted LEAVE and am at peace with that decision.

As for jingoistic, slogan driven bullshit, it seems to me ALL politicians were very much involved - of whatever hue.

Along with the media, nobody can really be proud of their conduct during the campaigns.

I'm quite even-handed, I dislike ALL politicians unless they prove they're actually not self-serving, lying bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

I see the finance house Morgan Stanley have announced they are moving 2000 jobs to Germany or Ireland.

Connected to yesterdays referendum result ??

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:44 AM

According to The Independent online That 'fact' about Morgan Stanley has been rebutted.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:47 AM

I voted leave too.
Yes it will hurt. So does a hard session in the gym. You still do it because you know you will be better off as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:48 AM

"I dislike ALL politicians unless they prove they're actually not self-serving, lying bastards."

Well, you fell for their bullshit, lies and fear peddling. You think Farage is self-serving and lying?

Apparently we're not getting the £340 million for the NHS and are no longer the world's 5th largest economy as France leapfrogged us as the pound tanked.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:00 AM

"That 'fact' about Morgan Stanley has been rebutted."
No it hasn't - read what it says.
It says there are no official plans to move or no immediate plans to make changes - the world of difference.
This type of reaction will not be the last.
Apparently, one of the problems ids that once things are in place, British firms will no longer have free passage across Europe with their goods and, apart from the delays, application for permission to cross will become a major issue.
As predicted, this will set the peace process in Ireland back decades, already they are planning to re-erect the border posts.
I've been listening to interviews with Irish citizens living in England - one tearful lady told how she has seen Britain swing to rapidly to the right, particularly on the question of race describing how she was constantly been told about "these bloody immigrants".
When she pointed out that she was an immigrant, the response was "Ah, but you're different" - "White" she presumed they meant.
Her son, who was born in England, was "Feckin' off to Germany - there's no future here".   
On the other hand, an Englishman (extremely lumpen-sounding) man living in Donegal said he had voted 'Leave' because "we want our freedom back'.
I have little doubt that there those who will not be bothered at what's happening to England (I exclude Scotland - they seem to be considering a way back to Europe for themselves.
I feel both worried, for my friends and family, and more than a little ashamed that the people I lived among for all of my life, my people, should have allowed England to sink to this level.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:01 AM

Stu wrote: Apparently we're not getting the £340 million for the NHS and are no longer the world's 5th largest economy as France leapfrogged us as the pound tanked.

I remeember when we were the worlds fourth largest economy. Decades of EU membership resulted in a downward slip. Perhaps now that downward slip is ended.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Ed.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM

Yes it will hurt. So does a hard session in the gym.

Wow! That is possibly the worst analogy I have ever heard. Do you honestly really mean that??? Do you actually understand what Brexit might mean?

You still do it because you know you will be better off as a result.

You don't know that you'll be better off as a result of Brexit. Hope, fair enough. Know? Sorry but you don't have a crystal ball. And to go back to your pathetic analogy, I bet Kamrul Hassan's family wouldn't agree....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM

Raggytash - 24 Jun 16 - 09:25 AM

I see the finance house Morgan Stanley have announced they are moving 2000 jobs to Germany or Ireland.

The bit in bold there is the statement that has been rebutted by Morgan Stanley saying that "there are no official plans to move or no immediate plans to make changes".

"Apparently, one of the problems is that once things are in place, British firms will no longer have free passage across Europe with their goods and, apart from the delays, application for permission to cross will become a major issue."

Some massive and extremely pessimistic assumptions there on the part of Jim Carroll all of them highly improbable and completely baseless. Common sense would tell any sentient human being that as the EU does more trade with us than we do with them there most certainly will be some sort of free trade agreement struck between the EU and the UK. If Jim Carroll actually believed for one second that what he had written was correct then the harm to the economy of the Republic of Ireland would be immense.

According to Article 50 the UK will remain part of the EU for at least the next two-and-a-half, possibly three years, during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties.

What will be interesting to see over the next few months is what will happen in the EU member states that are markedly more Eurosceptical than the UK - one prediction in the press today is that the EU and the Eurozone have got five years at most to turn things round or go to the wall. There was little or no prospect of change in the EU as of the 22nd June 2016 - completely different ball game now that their second largest net contributor has decided to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:30 AM

Hi Raggy

I got my Euros at our local post office. A small village sub office.

I have been buying my foreign currency there for some years now and usually get a good deal.

Cheers Mike

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM

"Good god man" Didn't used to believe in "God", but I do now and he voted Brexit....:0)......as all the pissy "liberals" say .. "I'm really loving this!"

Farage for Pope!!!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:47 AM

Surely we've had more than enough predictions of what Brexit would mean. Isn't it time perhaps we stopped making them, and sat back to see what will actually happen?

So far developments which were predicted and which have happened amount to the pound taking a nosedive, the Prime Minister announcing his resignation, and Nicola Sturgeon initiating plans for an independence referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

Is NATO next?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:09 PM

Conversation in an Asian fabric shop in Edinburgh today, between the Pakistani proprietor and a Scottish Muslim cleric: since only other part of the UK to vote as strongly for the EU as Scotland did was London, how about we keep London as a sort of Gibraltar when we leave the UK?

I think most of us wouldn't even mind letting London be the capital. The knuckle-draggers in between would be happier with Belfast for a capital anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:14 PM

"According to Article 50"

Ha! No-one's got the balls to press the button. Redwood was on this morning suggesting it will never have to be pressed.


"Farage for Pope!!!"

Yeah, you must be really proud of him. Congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

"The bit in bold there is the statement that has been rebutted by Morgan Stanley"
Doublspeak
"Some massive and extremely pessimistic assumptions there "
Nope - they've been discussing placing the borders back in place all day here.
The closure of borders to British firms has been a topic of discussion here all day,
Why should British firms have free passage over foreign countries - it has just removed itself from the only reason it has been able to.
"during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties."
Who says and why should countries assist a competitor?
The only reason for this decision to have been pushed through by the wealthy and privileged bit of Little England is the one touted by the Brexits from day one - to get rid of Johnny Foreigner.
I see you fail to commnt on the immediate damage done already - resignation of head of state, threat to peace process, possible break-up of Britain, immediate economic crash, (27 to the tune of 137bn.....
Sneak past the awkward bits, as usual
It's turned out to be a catastrophe on the first day - what can happen in a week, never mind two years?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM

A UK exit from NATO? Don't think so.

Hopefully the EU Army is a dead duck as far as the British are concerned, so far less chance for it to be used to undermine NATO which has to-date been one of the most effective military alliances the world has ever seen.

It remains to be seen if the Scottish electorate get another independence referendum - The SNP may well put preparations for one in train, whether it comes off or not is another thing entirely. Sturgeon must be cursing at present, pressure for a second "indy" referendum from all those people who flocked to join the SNP in the wake of the last one will be immense. The reality however is that all those awkward questions raised in the 2014 campaign are still there only in 2016 the offshore oil & gas industry is on its bones and the oil price is at bargain basement level with little or no sign of it picking up. Go for an independence referendum now and the SNP will lose it - Sturgeon knows that.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:34 PM

NBC got up a playliat for the Brexit:

The party's over

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:37 PM

"Why should British firms have free passage over foreign countries - it has just removed itself from the only reason it has been able to.
"during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties."
Who says and why should countries assist a competitor?"

BECAUSE THEY SELL MORE TO US THAN WE SELL TO THEM.

If they do as you suggest they primarily harm themselves and I do not know if you have checked up lately but the Eurozone is not in all that great a shape. Put up trade tariffs and they cut both ways. How does the bulk of Irish exports get to Europe? What percentage of Irish EU trade is with the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:41 PM

"damage done already - resignation of head of state"
.,,.
What! The Queen has abdicated? Away you. It's only the head of Government, who has said he will hand over to someone else within 3 months.

Sorry if this appears pedantic; but alarmist talk is the last thing anyone needs imo.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: olddude
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:01 PM

Wow, did you guys tank my stocks here in the states.. But I still love ya.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:57 PM

Trump's enthusiastic response is embarrassing for most Brexiters

Not at all - they're two sides of the same coin.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

As this referendum demonstrated, when it comes to the crunch, people are sometimes in fact less likely to put economic issues first, rather than other things. I can see that applying in a Scottish referendum. Scotland voted fairly decisively for Remain, more so than England voted for Brexit, and now the English choice is to be imposed on them.

That's the kind of thing that can marginalize the economic arguments. "No way!"

David Cammeron must bitterly regret he rejected out of hand the call by politicians in the rest of the UK that the decision to get out would only apply if all four partners voted for it. If he'd accepted that he'd be home safe, with Scotland and Northern Ireland on his side.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

"Away you. It's only the head of Government, "
Semantics Mike - you know very well what I mean - same on you
Maybe I should have said the elected head of Britain as destinct from the figurehead - there, does that make it any better?
I usually expect this level of argument from Teribus and the like!!
"BECAUSE THEY SELL MORE TO US THAN WE SELL TO THEM."
And they can equally buy and sell elsewhere.
Free passage across Europe came with membership of the Union and will disappear with Britain's resignation - or do you suggest that European countries will open their borders to everybody they buy from and sell to - give us a break - not even you.....
No country ig going to give free passage to business of a foreign power which are competitors of thei home grown ones - are you maD?
The question of Britain now facing closed borders has been discussed all day - do you have any examples of contrary discussion taking place
I don't know why I bother to ask - just another make-it-up as-you-go-along kite flyings.
"If they do as you suggest they primarily harm themselves "
No they won't, why should they
Ireland was discussing the possible benefits to firms who would pick up the trade Britain has walked away from by leaving.
One of the panic issues being discussed at the moment is the possible damage done to the economy of Northern Ireland and the need for a border referendum.
Nicola Sturgeon has just demanded a fresh referendum on Scotish Independence.
Have just watched Johnson strutting his stuff and looking for all the world like a Prime Minister in waiting and Farrage talking about what "we" have to do to get Britain back on its feet.
I don't think I have seen a day where a single piece of news has taken up so much attention since 9-11
You rightist clowns have a lot to answer for.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

So what exactly is the purpose of Farrage and UKIP now..???

surely they can close up shop and bugger off on an extended holiday...

.. of course if he chooses a European destination, he'll have to make certain he can still use
a European Health Insurance Card (EHIC).....????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM

"The bit in bold there is the statement that has been rebutted by Morgan Stanley"
Doublspeak
"Some massive and extremely pessimistic assumptions there "
Nope - they've been discussing placing the borders back in place all day here.
The closure of borders to British firms has been a topic of discussion here all day,
Why should British firms have free passage over foreign countries - it has just removed itself from the only reason it has been able to.
"during which time things will be put in place to the mutual satisfaction of all parties."
Who says and why should countries assist a competitor?
The only reason for this decision to have been pushed through by the wealthy and privileged bit of Little England is the one touted by the Brexits from day one - to get rid of Johnny Foreigner.
I see you fail to commnt on the immediate damage done already - resignation of head of state, threat to peace process, possible break-up of Britain, immediate economic crash, (27 to the tune of 137bn.....
Sneak past the awkward bits, as usual
It's turned out to be a catastrophe on the first day - what can happen in a week, never mind two years?
Jim Carroll

Can somebody please put the above into recognisable and understandable English, so that I can try to put reasoned responses to it?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 05:54 PM

Um, all the referendum means is there is a known preference, right?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:08 PM

It means that far fewer than half of the people registered to vote voted to leave. Anyone remember when Maggie tried to insist that no union could call a strike unless there was a two-thirds majority of ALL MEMBERS in favour? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:11 PM

The late, great, philosopher Marx {GROUCHO] had two quotations which are relevant to this situation:

I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me in it.

and,


Whatever it is, [if Trump in in favor of it] I'm against it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:13 PM

So what exactly is the purpose of Farrage and UKIP now?

They'll likely start a "Britons For Trump" organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:15 PM

Good heavens Jim just when I thought that you couldn't be thicker you go and prove me wrong by demonstrating something else that you are prepared to argue about without having the vaguest knowledge oor understanding of the subject.

By the way Jim which firm in Ireland is going to make the wings, under-carriage and engines for the Airbus?

How exactly are the Germans going to force other countries to purchase the cars that Germany will no longer be selling to British customers?

Ireland's biggest trading partner in the EU is?? The UK. Whoops Jim where is Ireland going to find an alternate market to sell all the stuff currently exported to the UK? And how are they going to get them to their new customers? Can't go through the UK now can they (According to your idiotic take on events).

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:18 PM

Whoopee the UK is free. So how long will it take? According to Article (I can't remember, is it 50?) of the Lisbon (?) Treaty It takes two years. Extensions are possible. Do we still keep coughing up the money during that time? I've heard the view that from today onward we have no 'seat at the table' so if this is so why should we pay?
Anyway I'm glad to say I lived to see Independence Day.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:34 PM

Free from what? Wogs?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 06:38 PM

Worthy Oriental Gentlemen are not referenced. The UK is free from undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt European rule. Hooray.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:16 PM

"Can somebody please put the above into recognisable and understandable English"
Wjat you can#'t answer you don't understand - nothing new under the sun Nige
Typed in a hurry but perfectly understandable to those who wish to.
"Good heavens Jim just when I thought that you couldn't be thicker "
More insulting shit and no answers.
"under-carriage and engines for the Airbus?"
Wheee - all th unemployed can go and work on Airbus""""
Crassness in the extreme.
What is all this about - from the moment Britain leaves Europe we will no longer have free access across borders
Checkmate, I believe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:30 PM

Stanron

Go for it, you're not alone. It's almost worth it just to see so many self-righteous posters stuffed.

Fact is, the future won't be easy, but tell me it was when we were looking at having to absorb the worst excesses of EU rule?

I'm proud to be a 'racist bigot' that had the audacity to stick up for my Britain - like over 30 million others.

In Yorkshire the average vote was 70% to leave - so are we all thick shits?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:48 PM

The last laugh could be on the very people on the right who are gloating.

For millions of people who streamed out to vote Leave from poverty stricken estates and in devastated towns this was seen as their chance to kick the government they loathed, and which most people loathe. ( elected by one in four of tye electorate, and acting like it had some massive vote of confidence behind it).

These were peole who had given up on voting years ago, or never voted in their lives. The structure of the referendum they knew that their vote counted for once.

Those on the left who voted In were collateral damage, as was tge economy.

But now the distraction of immigration controls is no more. This is the chance for a populist movement of the repressed and exploited analogous to Podemos in Spain. The old rule book is torn up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:07 PM

"so are we all thick shits?"
No - only the racist bigots - especially the self-confessed ones.
An on-the spot survey announced today that the majority of those who were questioned and said they supported exit were under-educated - 'lumpen' is the old term.
In one day the British economy has taken a nosedive, the elected Prime Minister has been forced to resign, billions have been lost on the stock exchange, firms are now considering moving to the continent leaving thousands of unemployed in their wake, Scotland has demanded an Independence referendum, a border poll to find whether the Northern six counties should leave the Union has been mooted, the value of Sterling has bombed, Britain's investment in Europe is under threat and the leadership of the nation has been handed to two racist brain-deads, Johnson and Farage - on a plate -and all because 'the lady doesn't love..... Johnny Foreigner '
Don't know about "all", but people who support what has happened today are "thick shits" - they certainly have no regard for Britain and the people who live there.
Didn't think I would ever have lived to see Britain degraded to this level in my lifetime - especially by those claiming to have the interests of the country at heart.
Patriots - I've shit 'em!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:11 PM

The UK is free from undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt European rule.

One small problem, Sunshine.

The UK was never subject to undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt European rule.

As Boris Trumpshit would say: Make Britain Great Again?

Gimmie shelter.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:16 PM

Two contrasting Monty Python scenarios TO COME;

I'm free, I'm free I'm a big boy now I'm free !

or

THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:28 PM

Greg F
Assertions are not proof.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:45 PM

"Assertions are not proof."
The proof is in the pudding - it's been in the oven all day.
You people have not responded to any of the consequences that have taken place since the result was announced.
Prrof of gross dishonesty, if you like.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM

Assertions are not proof.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:56 PM

The UK continues to be subject to undemocratic, inflexible and corrupt rule. The DIY kind.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 24 Jun 16 - 09:01 PM

Assertions are not proof.

And I am about to go to bed.

Sweet dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:28 AM

Watching the news today, it appears that Juncker is calling for the rest of the EU to take a hard line against UK.

We should not even think of invoking article 50 until there are terms on the table that 100% protect the rights of UK citizens for freedom to live, move, work across the EU, AND VICE VERSA, for continued access to the single market to protect present and future jobs in the UK, 100% guarantee that there will be no trade tariffs, ever, that the interests of the people of the UK be consulted on all future EU decisions. Once all this is in place, then, and only then should we start any formal process.

I am currently an EU member, and I am disgusted that I am not being represented in the talks the rest of the EU are having, especially as this will have an impact on the rest of my life.

Also, any agreement must include UK continuing to pay into EU to ensure that it continues its work in leveling the playing field for the less prosperous states.

The agreement must also bind the UK to pick up the tab for EU's contribution of development and structural funding etc to be spent according to EU rules.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 AM

"In one day the British economy has taken a nosedive, the elected Prime Minister has been forced to resign, billions have been lost on the stock exchange, firms are now considering moving to the continent leaving thousands of unemployed in their wake, Scotland has demanded an Independence referendum, a border poll to find whether the Northern six counties should leave the Union has been mooted, the value of Sterling has bombed, Britain's investment in Europe is under threat and the leadership of the nation has been handed to two racist brain-deads, Johnson and Farage"

Shall we see how much of the above our archetypal leftist wanker got wrong - it really is quite impressive

1: The British economy has taken a nosedive

Nope - in the course of yesterday the FTSE dropped less than 3% overall - it stands exactly where it did last February.

2: "the elected Prime Minister has been forced to resign"

Nope - he voluntarily offered his resignation, to some that is known as taking responsibility for ones actions - a concept totally foreign to an archetypal leftist wanker like Jim.

3: "billions have been lost on the stock exchange"

Nothing has been lost that cannot be recovered, currency fluctuates and the price of shares rise and fall.

4: "firms are now considering moving to the continent leaving thousands of unemployed in their wake"

Are they? Name them. I dare say that once the negotiations start there may be some adjustments, but that will do little to dent the City of London as one of the world's leading financial centres.

5: "Scotland has demanded an Independence referendum"

No it hasn't. Sturgeon has said that they are considering it, but I do not think that will consider it for very long. The SNP have painted themselves into a corner. Should they go for a second indy referendum they will surely lose it as:

- Scotland will be out of the EU and will have to apply for membership
- Scotland out of the UK would have to either create it's own currency or accept one that it had absolutely no control over.
- Scotland would have to budget on running the country on the current low price of oil per barrel (Their sums didn't add up when it stood at $90 per barrel it currently stands at about one-third of that)
- Scotland's main trading partner is the UK (If separation from the EU harms British trade, then it follows that separation from the UK will harm Scotland's)

If a second independence referendum is lost then that will be that issue dead and buried.

6: "a border poll to find whether the Northern six counties should leave the Union has been mooted"

And? The criteria for any referendum on the status of Northern Ireland are clear and agreed.

7: "the value of Sterling has bombed"

Oh hardly, I have seen it worse and it stands a damned sight better chance of recovery than the Euro, if you consider that both currencies dropped and that falls on European stock markets were bigger than in the UK.

8: "Britain's investment in Europe is under threat"

Now what investment would that be Jim?

9: "the leadership of the nation has been handed to two racist brain-deads, Johnson and Farage"

As far as I am aware Jim the leadership of the nation remains the same today as it was last Wednesday - you could of course attempt in your own spittle-flecked multi-coloured ranting manner to prove me wrong but you'd be on a hiding to nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM

I note that the Leave camp has already started to renege on it's promises. The £350 million promised to the NHS on their battlebus will not be forthcoming, according to Nigel Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:14 AM

"We should not even think of invoking article 50"
Seems like yesterdays vote was somewhat of a fait accompli - we are where we are and can make no demands as to how we should be treated as non-members.
No country in its right mind is going to allow free border access to a competition nation - why should it, it was a perk of membership.
The same with employment
The vote went as it did yesterday in order to close Britain's borders - "unelected bureaucrats, democracy, taking our own decisions..." and the rest of it, had nothing to do with our withdrawal other than to be used as election slogans - Europe in no more undemocratic, bureaucratic and dependent as is our own Parliamentary system - we elect our representatives on the basis of promises they have no intention of keeping, they reign supreme for a set period serving their own interests, then we go through the motions again... ad infinitum.
Both Europe and the British Parliamentary system are flawed and in need of repair or even replacement, but ditancing yourself from either is an act of madness.
Yesterday was about a number of otherwise unelectable politicians seeking election - Jonson is talking like the next Prime Minister and Farage is behaving as if serious people take him seriously - and the country is heading for hell in a handcart.
Great Britain as a United Kingdom is next in the firing line, I have no doubt that many Tories who no longer have a presence in Scotland would be glad to see the back of it and as for those **** Irish....
Little England, here we come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:20 AM

My currency exchange company is now offering 1.228 Euro to the pound. Down from 1.30 Euro on Wednesday.(These figures are AFTER commission is deducted)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:38 AM

We need to think now of not will or won't happen, but what can happen. We have now voted away our right of protection from repressive legislation and that is frightening.   Do we really think it is a good idea to allow a parliament the power to reintroduce capital punishment - some may say that is a good thing, but is it worth the risk of a jury of decent people to find people like Huntly not guilty purely on the principle that killing is wrong, even if it is state sanctioned? Then what happens if a future, right wing government extends the scope for executions, say for 'enemies of the state'. It can happen, it has happened.

We are talking about 'fair controls of immigration'. We will not be bound by any treaties which means a future government could start a programme of deportations and interment of its 'undesirables'.

When people talk about regaining our freedom, what they do not realise is they have just surrenders our protections that are inherent in treaties that have being created through concensus and through our own involvement.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:54 AM

NI may seek independence from UK!
That alone would make the whole thing worthwhile!

"Business world reacts as FTSE 100 finishes the week up more than 2pc after recovering from 8.7pc drop
Telegraph.co.uk‎ - 4 mins ago"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

FTSE 100 for the last month


Make your own mind up

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:43 AM

"
Nope - he voluntarily offered his resignation,"
He was left with no alternative in the circumstances a concept totally foreign to an archetypal rightist goosestepper like Terubus.
"Are they? Name them. "
You've had one of them
Northern Irish firms almost universally are now demanding that they be allowed to stay with the E.U. and continue to reap the benefits - if their opting out of the United Kingdom, so be it.
"And? The criteria for any referendum on the status of Northern Ireland are clear and agreed."
And, as with Scotland, a distinct possiblity -leading to the possible break up of The United Kingdom (made the front page of this morning's Times).
this for a start my little jackbooted friend
And these
http://www.search.ask.com/web?l=dis&q=British+investments+in+Europe&o=APN10644A&apn_dtid=^BND533^YY^IE&shad=s_0048&gct=hp&apn_ptnrs=^AG5&d=533-289&lang=en&atb=sysid%3D533%3Aappid%3D289%3Auid%3D0a42db3121ef0199%3Auc2%3D818%3Atypekbn%3D1.1%3Asrc%3Dhmp%3Ao%3DAPN10644A%3Atg%3D&p2=^AG5^BND533^YY^IE
Did you really ask that?
The threayt of Boris the Clit and Farrago speaks for itself
"We are talking about 'fair controls of immigration'"
Come people are - others like Ukip are talking about foreigners per se
We need to be talking of our responsibilities to people fleeing from wars and economic conditions we have helped to cause ant to our responsibility as human beings to people in dire trouble.
If the world had responded to the plight of the Jews in the 1930s as Britain is responding to the refugee crisis now, the death toll would have been far higher than six million
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:48 AM

Hmmmmm I thought I'd linked to the past month but yesterdays figures are there for all to see. Like I said make your own mind up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:29 AM

Last link didn't work out
Try these
Or these
Or maybe these
You seem to have come terms with the break-up of the United Kingdom
If Scotland and Ireland go - Wales!!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 07:11 AM

Lstest on the news - as far the EU founders are concerned, they want to now bulldoze UK out of EU as fast as possible. That is pure vindictivism.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:27 AM

That is pure vindictivism
Not really - Farage has proposed same thing
Britain's departure has left the EU with a hell of a lot of pieces to pick up, including the fact that M LePen and her right-wing extreme counterparts from other member states are calling for their countries to pull out (racism is a ticket to State leadership elsewhere apparently).
Why should the EU allow Britain to hang about to sort out its own problems when they have enough on their own plates.
Reminds me of the old fridge magnet parents used to put up aimed at theirtruculent offspring reading, "why not piss off and see the world know while you still know everything?"
We (or the more privileged or lumpen among us) have made our beds - we really are on our own - let's live with it.
I say that as a former British taxpayer who has seen his already pathetic state pension devalued over the last 24 hours - luckily we have no kids seeking employment over here or back home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 09:01 AM

That is pure vindictivism.

Nope. Its the chickens coming home to roost.

YOUR chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 09:50 AM

The position we are in has nothing to do with democracy, it has not been called in the interests of democracy bur purely as a matter of political expediency on the part of a deeply divided Tory party, backed up by blatant lies, and popularist slogans. All a short time after the Mayor election which didn't allow enough time for local Labour Parties to conduct intensive campaigns - even if we did get a good result in Ealing. We were fed a promise of bread and circuses if the big bad EU wolf was dealt with - the majority of people ignoring the fact that their hardship was brought about by domestic policy.

Morally Juncker owes the UK government nothing, but as a member of the Christian Social People's Party he should be concerned for thoseof us caught in the middle of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:06 AM

Not my chickens,just 27% of the population?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM

I wouldn't consider it vindictiveness either. The EU will continue as a body and anyone not connected with it will be a distraction at least. Therefore in order to clear the decks the UK needs to be put out at the earliest possible so that the rest of the Union can continue without interruption.

Perhaps if the OUT campaign has done their homework they can sort out the situation they have created quickly ............... if they have done their homework.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:33 AM

What were the most popular etonian excuses for not doing your homework...???? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 10:54 AM

Haven't followed the thread.

Been hearing a lot about Brits living and working away and they are pissed off big time. I know a Mudcatter living in Germany and he and his mates feel screwed over by their fellow Brits. I feel for them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:18 AM

Vote Boris Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:21 AM

" he and his mates feel screwed over by their fellow Brits"

Please remind him that nearly as many of us voted against as voted for...

My old mum has been unwell, but she insisted on being helped to walk to the polling station to vote 'REMAIN'...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM

"Not my chickens,just 27% of the population?"
Exactly - doesn't seem fair, does it?
The deciding number come from the wealthy South East - the soft underbelly of Britain
"Morally Juncker owes the UK government nothing,"
"Christian Social People's Party he should be concerned for those of us caught in the middle of it all."
The Americans invented a phrase for it - collateral damage.
Britain does have a right to re-apply for membership, but looking at the list of possible leaders I can't see that happening.
Boris did promise to apologise if things went badly, but I wouldn't hold your breath!
"I know a Mudcatter living in Germany".......
I heard the tearful Dublin- born mother saying that her Enlish born son was "pissing off to live in Germany as there's nothing for me here".
last year there were 30,000 Britis drawing unemployment benefit in the E.U.
Unemployed Britons in richer EU states outnumber claimants from those countries in UK
There's a figure to conjure with.
Brits on the dole in Europe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM

The deciding number come from the wealthy South East - the soft underbelly of Britain

Not true.
London and SE were for remain.
It was the Labour voting North, including Yorkshire, that swung it.
Even those grieving the loss of poor Joe came out for leave.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:53 AM

Is Calais gearing itself up for a new influx of British refugees paddling unsafe inflatables across the channel to escape the impending civil war...????? 😨

.. I can easily imaging Boris and Gove in natty style dictatorship regime uniforms....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:16 PM

My predicted time-line.

Tory & UKIP Slime fungus (not sufficiently evolved to merit being called knuckle draggers): "Don't worry, when we exit we will whistle and the EU will roll-over and do what they are told"

EU: No we won't

Slime fungus: "EU are just scare-mongering, and besides, we will whistle, and the rest of the world will do what they are told"

Rest of the world: "No, we won't give you special treatment"

Slime fungus: "The rest of the world are just scare mongering, and beside what do they know, they are not in the EU"

Britain exits - everything goes pair shaped.

EU - "We told you we wouldn't give you special treatment"
Rest of the world: - "We told you we would give you special treatment"

The future - all the ills that were there before haven't gone away, and in fact have got worse because we have lost protection from treaties.

Slime fungus: "It's all the fault of all the immigrants" - and this is where life in the UK gets frightening, and the cycle of daily mails disadvantaged person of the month to blame campaign starts again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:27 PM

"London and SE were for remain."
All the South Eastern counties voted to remain by %51, Eastern counties by %56.5 - only London voted to stay
Try to get it right Keith
Scotland had the highest percentage to remain at %62 (no wonder they want independence again) and interestingly, Northern Ireland voted by %55.8 to stay
Interesting times ahead!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:29 PM

Those who are cheering on Junker & Co., will see exactly why the vote to Leave was the correct one.

Now according to the Treaty the mechanism agreed by all 28 member states covering any member state leaving is Article 50. This says that the member state wishing to leave the EU must formally inform the EU and then the process is put in train and that process takes two years in which negotiations take place to finalise the matter.

The UK has not formally given notice so at present we are still full members of the EU and we should be up until the process is completed - now tell me how Jean-Claude is doing obeying EU rules? Next weeks Council of Ministers is being held with 27 Heads of Government not 28.

Junker & Co can say whatever they want the timing of giving formal notice is up to the UK NOT the EU. As someone has already said one idea would be that if the EU are going to disobey their own rules (Which they do regularly as long as it suits either the Commission, Germany or France) then why should the UK pay into the EU's coffers.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:39 PM

It's quite amusing, even in these dark times, when you recall all the crap from the out campaign about how we're being run by a bunch unelected Eurocrats, to contemplate that, come the autumn, the country is almost certainly going to be ruled by a man for whom not a single elector has voted. 😂😂😂 It's also quite amusing to think that the man who is calling for June 23 to be our Independence Day is a man who has tried and failed seven times to get elected to parliament. Think you've won back democracy, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM

Not amusing at all, Steve- I'm saddend & disappointed to know that there are apparently, percentage wise, as many Trumpist arseholes in the UK as there are in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:46 PM

Lasted news - France is planning to nullify Le Touquet treaty - have fun Dover!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM

My wife is overcoming her sudden disillusionment & self loathing of being Welsh,
because her drooling lust for pin-up boy Gareth Bale has proven too overpowering to resist... 😜

[currently nil / nil draw..]

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 12:51 PM

Look at these maps Jim.
The largest of the few Remain areas in Englandare London and surrounding prosperous areas stretching West and South, and a few other areas like Harrogate, York, Lakeland and Leeds in the North.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:03 PM

"to contemplate that, come the autumn, the country is almost certainly going to be ruled by a man for whom not a single elector has voted."

Really?? The Conservatives are going to elect someone to the office of Prime Minister who is not a duly elected member of the House of Commons? How are they going to do that?

As to what will settle things - and it will not be whatever Junker & Co give out as sound bytes - it will come down to Money, Security & Law.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM

"Those who are cheering on Junker & Co., "
Who would that be - nobody is "cheering him on, just pointing out what he has to do in his position.
Britain's leaving has placed the E.U. in a position of having to defend the rest of the member states.
It is the job of the commision to defend the Union from possible further damage and it the discretion of the president to decide how that should be done - his first priority is to the organisation itself and not defecting members.
Once again, Britain wants its cake having decided to eat it.
As it stands, Britain is a deeply divided state within itself standing to lose its Great Britain identity.
Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave.
The elected Prime Minister has been forced by the situation to resign, the leader of the opposition faces a vote of no confidence, all due to the 'leave' vote.
Attempting to appease Britain as it now stands would be like inviting a warring family to use your spare room.
It's just been announced that six foreign ministers of the E.U. member states (not just Junker) have asked that Britain leave as soon as possible.
It's also been announced in Ireland that prices in the shps in the Border counties have been seriously effected by Britain leaving.
I fine mess you've got us into Stanley!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:12 PM

It's also just been announced that NorthernIrish Post offices have received a record number of requests for Irish passport application forms.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM

"Money, Security & Law"
The State before the people again - which is..... what's the word I'm looking for - begins with 'F'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

This is a state of affairs which is not of my (and 37 million others making. Of the other 17 million they will feel the same when the penny drops how they were lied to.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

"Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU.

"It's just been announced that six foreign ministers of the E.U. member states (not just Junker) have asked that Britain leave as soon as possible."

They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK.

"It's also been announced in Ireland that prices in the shops in the Border counties have been seriously effected by Britain leaving."

And that should be the concern of the UK how? Pretty certain that prices in the shops in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain have remained the same as they were on the 22nd June. Bit of profiteering by the latter-day "Gombeen Men" Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:36 PM

Teribus asks:
What percentage of Irish EU trade is with the UK?

16%.

I'm really sorry to see Britain - England, really - vote itself out of the EU. Apparently the EU has done terrible things to it. I don't know what they are.

I've seen the EU behave badly: over the refugees streaming out from under the bombs raining down on Syria and Afghanistan, and running north from the horrors of Somalia - our descendants will look at us the way that we look at the British over the Famine in Ireland. I've seen the EU behave badly over Greese; I'll never forget the sight of Tsipras, the new Greek prime minister, come cringing like a beaten dog out of his first meeting with the bullies. They haven't behaved well towards Ireland, where a completely innocent population has been forced to pay the debts of crooked bankers interlocked with other international crooks.

But in terms of legislation, the EU has been a force for good since it started; we'd have had a long wait for equal pay for women, and for all kinds of other worker rights and human decencies, if we were a bunch of separate little nations in competition.

A bad day for Europe, a bad day for Britain, and they've really screwed Ireland.

Think of this one little example: since most of Ireland's imported food (like most of Britain's) comes from the EU, it has been found convenient to supply it through British centres that have treated Ireland as a 'region'. If this continues, Ireland will have massively inflated food prices due to customs, tariffs and two changes of currency - out of the euro into the pound; out of the pound again into the euro. If the system is changed and the food flies directly from Europe, it will still be expensive, due to the loss of economies of scale.

I know they weren't thinking of us, or of anyone except themselves, but - Albion perfide.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:19 PM

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."
Individually, these two voted to leave - they are both States in their own right, however Empire Loyalists might consider them.
If things continue where they are heading at present, it will all be academic - Great Britain will fragment
"They can ask for whatever they want, the timing is, by Treaty, set by the UK."
Let's see, shall we.
These are extraordinary circumstances.
We are witnessing an extremist right wing putsch in Europe at present.
Austria has recently narrowly avoided electing a neo-Fascist party into power, Mm Le Pen's party is on the rise in France, extremist groups in The Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Italy have made calls to leave the E.U.   
Brexit contagion
The Brexits fought their campaign on a racist ticket; Farage has already been linked to the European far right, and Johnson has echoed Ukip's anti-emigrant stance - neither are to be trusted not to throw their lot in with the European extreme right.
"And that should be the concern of the UK how? "
Because Britain has just taken a step which has caused those price-rises ans whatever you personally might think of the Irish, Britain is responsible for whatever happens in Great Britain and ids duty bound to put right whatever damage has been done - that is what being part of Great Britain is all about me little Kluxer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:25 PM

"So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???"

As soon as you like pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:38 PM

"As soon as you like pfr."


I don't want to ever.. right.. solved that then, thanks...

If only the rest of LEAVE were as reasonable as you...????? 🙄

Be nice if Boris and Farage should dip their hands in their pockets to reimburse us for any of our hard earned £££S losses caused by their monomaniac ideological over eagerness.....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:54 PM

Bugger. Got me facts wrong there. I forgot that Boris got a seat last time out. However, you don't have to be an MP to be PM. Sir Alec was PM for three weeks whilst being neither in the Commons nor the Lords.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 03:59 PM

Ah so it is the duty and responsibility of the British electorate to take into account and put the interests of other nations before their those of their own?? Dream On.

The Republic of Ireland's top three trading partners in descending order of importance are - The USA: the UK; Belgium.

"SPB-Cooperator - 25 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM

Is this a price worth paying?

No idea SPB what price have you paid so far?

Yes Jom by all means let's see if the EU Commission will abide by the rules that they themselves imposed upon the EU member states - If they don't then they will demonstrate quite clearly why the UK vote to leave what will have been proven to be a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable dictatorship was the correct thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:11 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"
All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves.

I'm fed up with the abuse being aimed at Nigel Farage, without him there would have been no referendum, for a while he fought the system single handed, demonised by every power hungry party in the country, demonised by every news paper.

He should be a candidate for politician of the year....the man has balls of steel.

Jim says... he is a racist and anti- immigrant, that is untrue he is simply against the free movement of people within the EU and you don't need to be a brain surgeon to see why.
Free movement would be perhaps acceptable if the playing field was level but there will never be mass migration of unskilled labour from the UK to Eastern Europe ......who wants to work for a quarter of what they can make at home.....and no benefits, poor health service and life in a squat?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM

100 years from now.. will historians evaluate Farrage in the same way we regard Oswald Mosley & Lord Haw-Haw...??? 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:32 PM

"the man has balls of steel."..... plural...???

errrrmmmmm... something else he may share in common with another 'great' leader from 20th Century history.... 😬

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:57 PM

How different things would be if David Cameron had agreed to the demand to make victory for the leavers dependant on their winning in all four parts of the UK. I've never seen any explanation as to why he made a decision like that. Sheer stupidity and arrogance?

The other thing that would have made all the difference is if migrants from EU countries had had the same right to vote as those from Pakistan and India and other Commonwealth countries. In the Scottish referendum they were allowed to vote. So were 16 and 17 year olds.

Three ways out which would have made all the difference, all perfectly justifiable in terms of democratic principles.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:08 PM

Or perhaps requiring a clear significant majority either way for an unconditional win..
..and a possible 2nd round for less than, let's say, 5 - 10 % 'victory'...???

.. or maybe a penalty shoot out...?????? errrrmm.. footballs, not bullets.....🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:12 PM

So far as the timetable for leaving, it is obvious that both parties will be trying to arrange this in the way that is most convenient, rather than bending over backwards to suit the other side.

Obviously for the EU it makes sense that, if the UK it should do so as promptly as possible. That means, the two years provided for, quite long enough.

That might not suit the Conservative Party, but so what?

I imagine a fair compromise will be reached. If the Conservatives will have a new leader, and the country a new Prime Minister, by October, that would be a reasonable date for the two year countdown to start.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:35 PM

The referendum has been won...."Get used to it"

And the fallout therefrom is just beginning - get used to it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:04 PM

I nearly fell out of my standing reading the New Yorker's claim today that America (home of mass shootings, of ordinary people having multiple guns at home, of state executions, of racial discrimination, of sub-prime mortgages, of state assassinations of foreign citizens without trial…) is now the home of liberalism!

Teribus - should the English have considered other nations when voting on their own future? Not what I was suggesting; I was saying you rightly screwed us over, but perhaps that should not be unexpected.

It might be more worrying to consider that you rightly screwed yourselves over, from the look of the economic readouts. As a joker on Twitter said today, "Don't forget that we can restore the value of Sterling simply by buying pounds off each other. I'm offering 30p each."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM

More potential job losses ???

Link

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:41 AM

"All the whining on here will change nothing we are thankfully out of project Euro and can now start to govern ourselves"
Who is "ourselves?
You live in Scotland, don't you?
Scotland voted to leave and is quite likely to call for another Independence referendum, as is Northern Ireland - if they succeed they will apply to join the E.U. - if is in their economic interests to do so - will you learn to live with that?
This appalling marginal result has split Britain down the middle, has threatened the future of the no longer United Kingdom, has undermined British investment abroad, stands to impoverish the already struggling working people of these Islands and threatens to have produced a political moron and an ale-swilling racist as British leaders - as long as it gets rid of the wogs eh?
Pity homosexuals couldn't have been included in the campaign!
A Pyrrhic vctory, I think you'll find - the more astute Brexists are already beginning to recognise that fact
SECOND THOUGHTS

Insights
". Bit of profiteering by the latter-day "Gombeen Men" Jim?"
Your hatred of Ireland has long been established but blaming local businesses for problems that are due to hit Britain big-time as the economy continues to nose dive continues to confirm it.
Your quaint, archaic use of the term 'gombeen' shows how out-of-touch you are on the people you hate.
Whatever it's origins, it is a term that has been applied almost exclusively to self-serving politicians over the last few decades.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM

"It's like Trump going to West Virginia and saying it's all going to be great," Blanchflower said. "Trump can't help them. But you can see why they would want change."

"At some level it is a cry of frustration but one that could end up hurting an already economically harmed part of the population," says Eswar Prasad, an economics professor at Cornell University and former official at the International Monetary Fund. "That is the remarkable irony here."

William Galston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, said Brexit voters were "startlingly" similar to Trump's coalition: More likely to be older, with less education, and more likely to oppose immigration.

Listening to British television coverage of the vote, "I could have shut my eyes and altered the accents, and I would have thought they were talking about the American election," he said.

"Why would you locate in the U.K.?" asked Desmond Lachman, resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and former IMF official. "You don't know what kind of access you'll have to the (EU). Why not just wait?"

Complete Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:04 PM

So when do we start paying VAT & import duties [+ the imposed post office handling fee] on musical instruments and equipment
purchased from Germany...???

Though on the other hand, we'll probably no longer have the incentive of lower prices in Europe....????? ☹

Import duties (if any) would be imposed by the UK, so, if there are no new tariffs you don't need to worry about that. (this is something Mr Cameron was rather disingenuous about, claiming that prices would go up due to import tariffs. It is our government which would impose those tariffs)
If you have to pay VAT on bringing the goods in then that will cost you an additional 1% of the value. (on the basis that you will no longer be paying German VAT of 19%)

If you're bringing in goods from Italy you will save, as their current rate is 22%

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:24 PM

I see the Scottish government is arguing that there is a precedent for Scotland and Northern Ireland to stay in the EU even if England and Wales get out.

Constitutionally Greenland is still a largely self governing part of Denmark, and some years ago it pulled out of the then European Communities. But Denmark is still in the EU.

Sounds logical to me. And if the Scottish Assembly refuses to agree to Brexit, I can't see how it can go ahead. After all, it was only an advisory referendum. It doesn't in itself carry any legal force whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:31 PM

And if the Scottish Assembly refuses to agree to Brexit, I can't see how it can go ahead. After all, it was only an advisory referendum. It doesn't in itself carry any legal force whatsoever.
Of course, that argument works both ways. If it was only advisory then although Scotland have said they don't want to leave, if the UK leaves, Scotland's votes were only advisory!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 02:35 PM

In case it's not obvious, I voted to leave. And I'm glad that the majority of the voting UK population agreed with my view.

I was hoodwinked back in the 70s. I won't make that mistake again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

I think I voted the right way in 1975 - when I voted for the U K to get out, at an early stage. I thought that sooner or later the British presence would harm Europe.

I voted this time to stay, and I think that was consistent. I thought that by this time Brexit would cause terrible harm to both parties - and all the signs at present seem to indicate I was right.

A bit like the difference between Pulling out a dodgy tooth, and chopping off a limb.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM

I think I voted the right way in 1975 - when I voted for the U K to get out, at an early stage. I thought that sooner or later the British presence would harm Europe.

I voted this time to stay, and I think that was consistent. I thought that by this time Brexit would cause terrible harm to both parties - and all the signs at present seem to indicate I was right.

A bit like the difference between pulling out a dodgy tooth, and chopping off a limb.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:39 PM

And maybe the only bright spot with Brexit - it removes the government most favourable to the proposed TTIP treaty from the picture so far as the EU is concerned, making it significantly less likely.

Now if only Obama's promise the outside the EU the UK would be "at the back of the queue" turns out to be right...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 04:51 PM

McGrath writes:
I see the Scottish government is arguing that there is a precedent for Scotland and Northern Ireland to stay in the EU even if England and Wales get out.

One difficulty here, McGrath. The EU tends to work on the Napoleonic code rather than the British common law.
The British system (which we inherited and continued to use as our legal logic in Ireland, by the way, and which I think the US did as well) bases laws on previous precedents.
The Napoleonic code works differently, lawyers tell me - instead of using precedent, each law is worked out intellectually, using the logic of the individual situation.
So the precedent may not be so important as it would be in a historically Anglo society.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:13 PM

I think that Sturgeon has already been told by EU officials what Salmond was told back in 2014 - Scotland is not a member of the EU the UK is. The UK has decided democratically to leave the EU - if Scotland wishes to joint the EU it must do so by applying to join once Scotland becomes an independent country - not before.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:12 PM

Of course it needn't apply to join, if the conditions weren't satisfactory in some respects. Scotland doesn't have too many worries about freedom of movement, so an agreement analogous to Norway or Switzerland would be a real option, if they didn't fancy the euro.

In the circumstances of Brexit I think Scottish joining the EU would be viewed pretty favourably by other members, I'd think. Even Spain would be less likely to see it as a dangerous precedent for Catalonia.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:27 PM

That is what you THINK Kevin, please do not attempt to propose it as something the EU would automatically jump at - you personally have no way of knowing that, neither does any member of the Scottish Government. You seem to be arguing as though only Scottish views must be taken into account - look at it from the EU's point of view, would Scotland be a net contributor or would an independent Scotland be a drain on EU resources - with the EU's second largest contributor walking out of the door, that is how the EU will look at it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 08:32 PM

Of course it's "only what I think". That applies to all this speculation.

You wanted Brexit because it makes sense to you. I opposed it because it did not make sense to me, and because I believed it will do enormous harm to many many people.

Sooner or later it may be possible to judge who was right. But nobody will ever know what the outcome of a vote to stay might have been. As with Iraq, they'll still be arguing in 100 years.

No one knows whether Scottish independence is on the way. If it does come, in the context of the rest of the UK exit, I doubt if there would be significant difficulties for Scotland joining, or getting a free trade agreement analogous to Norway and Switzerland. But of course nothing is certain. It never is.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Bugsy
Date: 26 Jun 16 - 09:09 PM

Much as I feel for the people who voted "Remain" (I would have done the same had i still been living in UK)and understand the preening being done by SOME of the "Leave" posters on this thread,it's time to put all that behind you.

IT'S DONE. Now EVERYONE has to band together to make the best of what lies ahead.

I wish you all the best of luck for the future, and, sad to say, I'm glad I'm out of it all and living in Australa.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 11:38 AM

Having Won, 'Brexit' Campaigners Begin Backpedaling

By STEPHEN CASTLE, NY Times   JUNE 26, 2016

LONDON — Freed from the shackles of the European Union, Britain's economy would prosper and its security would increase. Britain would "take back control" of immigration, reducing the number of arrivals. And it would be able to spend about 350 million pounds, or about $470 million, a week more on health care instead of sending the money to Brussels.

Before Thursday's referendum on the country's membership in the 28-nation bloc, campaigners for British withdrawal, known as Brexit, tossed out promises of a better future while dismissing concerns raised by a host of scholars and experts as "Project Fear."

But that was before they won.

Perhaps no promise was more audacious — and mendacious, critics say — than the £350-million-a-week claim. Boris Johnson, the former mayor of London who was the frontman of the Brexit campaign, toured Britain in a bus emblazoned with the slogan: "We send the E.U. £350 million a week, let's fund our N.H.S. instead," a reference to the country's widely revered National Health Service.

Hours after proclaiming "independence day" for Britain, Nigel Farage, the leader of the fiercely anti-European U.K. Independence Party, conceded that the £350 million figure was a "mistake." The shift was perhaps unsurprising, since the £350 million "independence dividend" never stood up to scrutiny.

Promises to quickly reduce immigration levels are also being played down. Migration was the cornerstone of the Leave campaign, which objected to the European Union's insistence on the free movement of labor, capital, goods and services.

On Friday, the day after the referendum, Daniel Hannan, a member of the European Parliament and one of the most knowledgeable advocates of Brexit, stunned some viewers of the BBC by saying: "Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the E.U., they are going to be disappointed."


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/world/europe/having-won-some-brexit-campaigners-begin-backpedaling.html?_r=0

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:05 PM

The aftermath of the vote has yet to lead to clarity. Heard this morning on the local news that BR/EXIT will not be good for the Alaska economy as it will lead to lower crude oil prices. Still trying to suss that one out.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:33 PM

The UK credit rating has just been reduced fro AAA to AA. Well, it is all going swimmingly so far...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 02:44 PM

On 17th May Farage said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Well, the boot's on the other foot and it's not over. We will now hold the brexiters to account and try to salvage some good from this nightmare before we descend into the hell the next elitist etonian establishmentarian and his lickspittles will visit upon us.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM

It is over...believe me you may whine and complain all you like but we are on the way out of the EU.

Had the vote gone the other way Mr Farage could have pressed for another referendum whenever he chose, but the vote was OUT and when that button is pushed we are out.

Of course we could apply for re-admission, but that would be highly unlikely to be successful........"Get used to it!!"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:05 PM

but the vote was OUT and when that button is pushed we are out.

Not hardly, Ake. Educate yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 08:33 PM

The point was that if the vote had been the other way, it would have been perfectly possible to have a second vote any time parliament wanted one. Or any number of votes, until a vote for leaving won.

That was the asymmetry that was built in, and many people failed to appreciate. Those who were firmly for Brexit rightly voted for it. But anyone who was less than 100% for it, or who was undecided, was acting irrationally in voting for it. You have to be 100 per cent sure if you want to divorce your partner. Which is why divorces involve a decree nisi before the decree absolute.

The whole thing is like the shops with the rule "if you break it, you've bought it".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 16 - 09:00 PM

An Englishman, a Scot, and an Irishman went into a bar...

The Englishman wanted to leave, so they all had to.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 01:22 AM

robomatic wrote: The Englishman wanted to leave, so they all had to.

Perhaps the Englishman was the only one with money.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:02 AM

The pound continues to fall against the Euro, today my source is offering 1.19 Euro as against 1.30 Euro last Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:30 AM

"Get used to it!!"

Nope. I'm not going to roll over an lay down whilst the country is delivered lock, stock and barrel into the hands of the establishment, will combat the legitimacy that racism seems to have gained in the eyes of some ("I'm not a racist, but..."), watch as my fellow citizens suffer the depravations the old Etonians the Brexit folk care for so much will visit upon us come the next budget.

The poor will pay for this, and it's essential the lying demagogue Farage is kept away from power; he's unelected, despises the poor and above all, is a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:25 AM

into the hands of the establishment

The establishment wanted to remain.
By a small majority, ordinary folk said no.

Before Farage there was no-one in politics who spoke for that majority, and but for UKIP threatening the Tory vote they would never have allowed a referendum at all.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:06 AM

"The establishment wanted to remain."


So you think Johnson, Gove et al are outside the establishment? Seriously?


"Before Farage there was no-one in politics who spoke for that majority"

Garage has fooled so many people it's impressive. He's a city man who went to Dulwich and has zero idea of what life is like for most of us who have to struggle to make a living. Worst still, he is xenophobic and encourages xenophobia and legitimises racism, which we've seen increase since the vote.

The vote is the choice of the people, that has to be respected. But the consequences of the vote need to be mitigated and we need to ensure we continue forward instead of regressing into the 1970's, which is what a lot of old white men seem to want.

The working class will wake up to this con trick in time, we already hear the Breiteers peddling back on their lies about the NHS; why anyone would put up with that is beyond me - the poor will pay with their suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:24 AM

So you think Johnson, Gove et al are outside the establishment? Seriously?

Compared to the Remainers, yes.
All the political parties except UKIP, Treasury, Bank of England, Employers especially government, big business especially government, banks, and the affluent users of nannies, gardeners, housemaids and plumbers.

What Observer/Guardian said on Sunday,
"The Ukip-led voter uprising that tore up the political map in 2014 and 2015 has now changed the face of British politics for ever. David Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union to see off the Ukip revolt. Instead, after a vote that drew the largest turnout in a nationwide poll for 20 years, it is the rebels who have seen off the prime minister, gone within hours of the result's announcement.

The Ukip rebels, dismissed only a few years ago as a fringe nuisance, have delivered perhaps the largest shock to European politics since the fall of the Berlin Wall. The vote highlighted Britain's deepening political faultlines. "

"The mass migration from poorer EU countries that began in 2004 was something the "left-behind" electorate never wanted, never voted for and never really accepted. The economic case for EU migration was clear to the liberal mainstream elites from across the political spectrum, who thought that should settle the matter. Politicians from both Labour and the Conservatives never made a case for free movement, and seemed to believe they could assuage popular anger by restrictions that were manifestly impossible, given EU treaty rules. The left-behind voters weren't fooled – they soon recognised that controlling immigration would be impossible without leaving the EU, and they have now voted accordingly."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/left-behind-eu-referendum-vote-ukip-revolt-brexit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

We've already said 'Goodbye'.
Since you've got to go
Oh you had better go now.
Go now. Go now. Go now
Before you see me cry.
I don't want you to tell me
Just what you intend to do now...

I don't want to see you go
But, darling,
You'd better go now.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:44 AM

"Compared to the Remainers, yes."

Ha! They're as establishment through and through. Privileged career politicians who have zero idea what it's like to not be able to afford to feed yourself. They're from the party that imposed austerity and cut our public services to the bone.

Those two and their cohorts, along with the odious Farage, are not rebels by the slightest stretch of the imagination, they're the soulmates of the fascist Le Pen and the heirs of Moseley.

To suggest these people represent the people in the same way as other progressives of the past is pretty insulting to their memory. From Watt Tyler, Jack Cade, Winstanley, Lilburne, the Chartists, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Luddites, the Suffragettes, Wilberforce and many, many others had so much more intellectual, moral and political integrity that they don't bear comparison.

We owe it to these people, who DID fight for the rights of ordinary working folk to eschew the politics of lies, division and superficiality. The good news is that the Leave campaign didn't con 16 million people and we are still here, working away quietly on the ground in our communities, free of party politics, to ensure our societies remain tolerant, compassionate, progressive and fit to act as a leading nation on the world stage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 05:50 AM

The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it. Well, there were a few courtly eastern European professors, and the odd African or Indian prince, but basically, everyone one knew was English. Lots of ginger pop and cake on the beach, Mummy smiling and the sun shining.

The Brexit vote was a vote to make that imaginary past into an imaginary future.

The reality of a Europe that never really liked the English anyway saying "Oh, do go away", and a stock market in a feeding frenzy was what they got. And racist attacks on non-English people.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:04 AM

"The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it"

Lazy stereotyping, sweeping generalisation, same old, same old. Surely you can do a better anti-English rant than that? Do you think everyone lives in The Archers or Albert Square?

I know in my community we will stand shoulder to shoulder with all our fellow citizens, wherever they were born and whatever their creed. We will defend their rights as equals, they're a vital and dynamic part of our community and many are good friends of mine.

Remember, Leave only won by 4% and there are still the other 48% who voted to remain that will carry the flame for freedom, social justice, equality and community.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:17 AM

I think the point Thompson was trying to make is that some people have an English ideal, that never really existed, that they would like to the country to return to. It obviously cannot because that "ideal" never actually existed except in their empty heads.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:21 AM

It's true that it was almost a 50:50 vote, Stu. But the enormous rise in anti-foreigner attacks suggests that the vote was won by that tainted dream.

From the New Statesman: As Lord Ashcroft's polls suggest, it is only the white working class (if by this we mean C2/DE, though many in DE are unemployed) who voted for Brexit. In fact, those describing themselves as "in employment" generally voted to Remain. Those describing themselves as Asian, black or Muslims overwhelmingly voted Remain. By contrast, nearly six in ten white Protestants voted to leave.
Brexit was a rejection of British multiculturalism. That is the real take-home message of the Ashcroft polls. Of those who see themselves as "English not British", 80 per cent voted to Leave, irrespective of social class. Those who see themselves as "British not English" voted 60 per cent for Remain. Similar patterns (and similar press involvement) can be found in the Quebec referendum of 1995, which failed by a narrower margin than Brexit succeeded.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:05 AM

Observer piece I linked to above,

"the divides the Brexit vote has revealed run deeper and broader than a single issue. They reflect deep-seated differences in outlook and values, hopes and prospects, between graduates and school leavers, globalised cosmopolitans and localised nationalists, the old and the young, London and the provinces.

These divides have been building for decades, but were long latent because, before the emergence of Ukip, they lacked a political voice. Now the sheer magnitude of the fracture between the globalised middle class and the anxious majority is clear for all to see. The patterns of Brexit voting last week map almost perfectly on to the pattern of Ukip voting seen in the 2014 European parliament. The only difference was the numbers: on Thursday, the Ukip coalition ballooned to an overall majority. Those who have dictated the terms of politics to the "left-behind" for a generation suddenly found the tables had turned. The result was a massive shock to the citizens of London, Manchester and other cosmopolitan cities, who discovered that much of provincial England utterly rejects their Europhile worldview. It leaves both the Tories and Labour facing stark challenges. The divides in identity, values and outlook it reveals cut straight across class, income and geography."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 07:47 AM

"The English have a memory - perhaps a false memory - of a time when their country was modestly prosperous, everyone had a job, and there were no brown or black people in it"

That in itself is a disgraceful racist statement,
inferring that the English as a nation are xenophobic.

Additionally, the vast majority of Eastern European immigrants are "white"

Mr Farage spoke in the European Parliament this morning, "years ago I stood in this House and told you that I would lead a campaign to remove the UK fro the EU......you all laughed at me.   Well, you're not laughing now!!"

Well done Sir.

No matter what your politics are, and mine are far removed from Nigel's it was tremendous feat of will in the face of horrendous vilification which even now is continuing on these pages and almost all of the Media.......The "liberals" have become the establishment, threatening bullying and demonising in their Orwellian world

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:19 AM

Not a racist statement at all. I would take a substantial bet (which for me would be about a fiver) that if you asked 100 sample English men and women, without making any mention of race, to draw a picture of England in the 1950s, there would be no dark-skinned people in that picture.
The memory of the 1950s in the English consciousness is of an Enid Blyton and Agatha Christie world, imho, where 'English' means white.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 08:20 AM

And I suppose that nice Mr Farage is not in the slightest Xenophobic. It's amazing how some people can fool themselves so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:57 AM

If Farrage had lost the referendum by 4% he would most definitely have been a bad loser...

What he gloatingly demonstrated today in Europe was that he is an equally as loathsome bad winner....

Kinda makes you think he's overall not a very good person.....????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:02 AM

Garage has fooled so many people it's impressive.

He's obviously fooled The Professor not that that's a difficult job.

inferring that the English as a nation are xenophobic.

Not all, Ake, only 51%

Additionally, the vast majority of Eastern European immigrants are "white"

Yeah, Ake but to Farage et.al. they're still wogs.

I think the point Thompson was trying to make is that some people have an English ideal, that never really existed, that they would like to the country to return to.

Same nonsensical myth that's fueling The Trumpshit's campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 10:11 AM

"Stu. But the enormous rise in anti-foreigner attacks suggests that the vote was won by that tainted dream."

Well, I can't disagree with that. Faridge and his ilk are profoundly xenophobic and often racist, and more to the point shameless in their approach to gaining power.



"That in itself is a disgraceful racist statement, inferring that the English as a nation are xenophobic."

A) It's not a racist statement. B). A substantial number of the English are undoubtedly xenophobic, partly because people like Farage whip up fears based on utter lies; why we're so gullible in this country befuddles me. At the moment, we seem to be slipping back into the sort of 1970's racism that blighted our society for years. Any person with a shred of common decency would thunder against it.



"What he gloatingly demonstrated today in Europe was that he is an equally as loathsome bad winner...."

He's a boorish oaf, little more than a pumped up blackshirt lout.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM

I would propose the Wodehousian black shorts, myself. As an alumnus of the same school, that would be appropriate?

For some reason, my brain had converted the shorts to brown. Hmm. I didn't know I was that naughty.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:28 AM

On Facebook... I have seen three of my friends who voted remain complaining of verbal abuse on the streets. I have several other friends who are of ethnic minorities or mixed race who voted leave.... None of them have been witness to any racial remarks.... strange or what?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:40 AM

"strange or what?"


Well if you are delighted to win by only 4%, no big surprise you can draw your own sociological conclusions from a sample of only 3 friends
..and 'several' ethnic pals... 🙄

====


.."of course I'm not xenophobic, several of my friends are....."

"Here's my mate Chalky..."


oh yes.. those fond memories of a more innocently racist era back in the 70s....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:54 AM

Let's just clear a couple of things up about Farage "speaking for the majority." First, he most definitely isn't. 52% of the poll is not 52% of the country. The figure is 52% of 72%, a considerable minority of the people eligible to vote. You have no right to include even a single one of all the rest Second, he got hordes of people onside by cynically pandering to their lowest, most detestable racist instincts, as did Boris and Gove. "Take back control" my arse. No-one ever suggested "taking back control" from Osborne and Cameron, who got 24% of the electorate last time out. No-one has suggested "taking back control" from shitbags like Philip Green who has wiped out thousands of people's pension prospects. No one suggests "taking back control" from multinational oil and energy companies who rip us off time and again in the service of "shareholders" who never lift a finger except to fill in their paying-in slips when the dividend arrives. No-one suggests "taking back control" from the yanks, who we must please all the time and never even think of demurring from their foreign policy decisions, no matter how rotten (even Maggie let them put nuclear warheads on our soil). Finally, as for Farage himself, this great spokesman for the people, he has tried to get elected as an MP seven times and failed to get elected seven times. That's how much we love him. We got this referendum because that idiot Cameron wrongly thought that Farage was going to nick dozens of his seats, because he couldn't stand up to the right-wing Hawks in his party and because he was sure he was going to win. We now know what a bloody stupid, Etonian, Bullingdon, pig-abusing, posh-boy clown he really is.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

And those hawks certainly don't deserve a capital letter.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 12:18 PM

I used to have a scouse mate in London, who I am absolutely certain will have voted "Leave"

He worked on building sites, and was lovely friendly generous bloke..

.. except he profoundly hated what he referred to as "n**gers"

He claimed he had too many bad experiences growing up near them in Liverpool

I had to get to know him, and although he also delighted in baiting any 'student lefty types" like me,
got see his better side because we lived for a few years in a shared house.

I suspect his hatred was not entirely irredeemable because he made 'allowances' for any blacks who played for Liverpool and England,
and a few black workmates on the building sites...

When questioned about this seeming contradiction, he passed it off as..

"Well.. they're our n**gers".....

Strange or what... wonder what brought that memory back to me...????? 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM

How weird that no-one has drawn attention to the important bits that happened in Brussels today:

1: On EU democracy and free speech - you have EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker's Presidential ban, immediately enforced, on all and any communication regarding the UK's withdrawal from the EU or on any future arrangements, be they bilateral or with EU members states as a whole. This ban includes all MEPs, EU Council Members, EU Commissioners - certainly were I a European MEP, or an EU Council member representing a country that traded extensively with the UK I'd tell the jumped-up little shit exactly where he could get off if he thought he could order who I spoke to.

2: First of the meetings to take place to set their ducks in a row? Germany and France meet to establish a pact to rapidly accelerate political and financial union within the EU. Juncker now on track to force through the adoption of the Euro by all EU member states. Anyone care to tell me where the consultation with other member states for these "edicts"? The EU now has 27 members, 16 of them make no contribution to the EU Coffers and 11 pay in. The German contribution is huge which is probably why it feels entitled to make these decisions confidently in the knowledge that those who do not contribute have to play ball or suffer financial castration.

Thankfully none of this affects the UK as we voted to leave the corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable organisation last Thursday. Had we voted "Remain" we would have roped in and told to live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 02:40 PM

well said Steve Shaw.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

"Well said Steve Shaw"....Certainly not the rambling nonsense in his last post.    We have taken back control from an undemocratic cabal who have absolutely no right to determine who comes to this country, or in what numbers they come. Among many other things.

Successive UK governments are elected by the people of this country if we do not like them we can democratically vote them out and install a government we do like. That is "Having Control".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 03:28 PM

Successive UK governments are elected by the people of this country if we do not like them we can democratically vote them out and install a government we do like. That is "Having Control".

Except of course many of us don't. That's the problem with safe seats. In most elections there are only a small number of constituencies that are likely to change hands. Then of course you probably don't have a choice whether the candidate standing for your favoured party is on the left, right or centre side of the party.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 04:19 PM

We have taken back control from an undemocratic cabal

Conservative party's still there, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 06:42 PM

I think it worth bearing in mind that racism where it does exist, rather than imagined or exaggerated to make political capital , is not the ole domain of the white British . Some blacks heve been racist towards whites , and against other blacks , just as one set of whites have been racist against another white populace. Farage has been caught making seemingly contradictory remarks , but I wonder if anyone has actually recorded him actually making racist comments. And by this , I do not mean his desire to limit immigration , which of it self is not definitely racist.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jun 16 - 09:14 PM

Even over here in the U.S. the name Farage is synonymous with nationalistic bigotry. But you think his form of wanting to "limit immigration" isn't racist?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:15 AM

Well I don't know Acme, what race is an immigrant? Rather liked your "nationalistic bigotry" immediately preceded by "Over here in the US" - a country that probably has the harshest entry conditions on the planet for those wishing to enter and reside there, and certainly a country whose own domestic history and civil rights record should preclude it or any of its citizens from criticising others on racism.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:33 AM

Well I think that the more US citizens stand up to criticise racism the better. Farage proudly presented us with an out campaign poster bearing the slogan "breaking point" which showed a huge queue of mostly black people at the Macedonian border. Those people were not seeking free movement as immigrants under EU rules in the routine sense, as we were supposed to assume: they were refugees. The poster was a lie which was proudly endorsed by Farage. Racism by any measure.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:06 AM

Acme....What is "his form of wanting to limit immigration"?

It is the Australian points based system in which immigration is controlled by the host nation, not some undemocratic political grouping......As Teribus has implied the US would never allow unregulated immigration to be imposed upon it.

Are you suggesting that Australia and other countries which use the same system are racist?

Farage is a brave and strong politician.......I just wish he, like Thatcher, was a socialist.    We don't seem to breed many of those.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 03:15 AM

At the very least Farage is xenophobic, and stokes xenophobia. I have friends from abroad who live here who are very worried about the mood in the country, and rightly see Farage's demagoguery as being intimidating at best, inflammatory at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 04:15 AM

In all the excitement it seems to have been widely overlooked that the UK hasn't yet decided to leave the EU.

Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty says "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements". The British constitution is flexible, but I don't see how a non-binding referendum can be considered to meet this requirement, especially where the result has been so narrow. It seems to me that the only way this could be met is by a decision made in Parliament. Parliamentary sovereignty is after all what the Leavers were campaigning for.

MPs would have to take into account the result of the referendum, both nationally and in their constituencies, but they should also reflect on the fact that the margin is only a few percent and the country is bitterly divided (and actual public opinion may now be even narrower, as a number of Leavers are having second thoughts, having realised that the promises they were made were nothing of the sort, that the warnings dismissed as Project Fear were justified, or that you can't make a protest vote in a referendum). They should also consider the implications for Scotland and Northern Ireland and on the unity of the UK as a whole. They must make a decision based on what they believe is in the long-term interests of the country. We elect MPs to use their own judgement, not to automatically do what their constituents tell them to.

If Parliament were to agree to leave, we would have satisfied the first requirement of Article 50 and can go on to give formal notification to the EU of our intention to leave, although the timing of that is entirely a matter for the British Government. If it votes to stay, against the wishes expressed in the referendum, this would surely trigger a general election. With EU membership the main, perhaps only, issue, who knows what that might bring? Nigel Farage as Prime Minister? This is the genie we have unleashed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM

At the very least Farage is xenophobic,

His first wife was Irish and his second German.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 06:58 AM

"His first wife was Irish and his second German."

So? Is that the sum total of the argument against Farage's xenophobia?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:31 AM

There is no evidence at all for xenophobia, and xenophobes tend not to marry foreigners.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 07:35 AM

Farage is a brave and strong politician

Just like your other hero, The Trumpshit, eh Ake?

His first wife was Irish and his second German.

That's meant as a joke, right Professor? or are you reprising the old U.S. expression: "Racist? Me? Why, some of my best friends are ni**ers!"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 10:59 AM

"His first wife was Irish and his second German. "

Keith - my scouse mate, the overt racist - he was proud of his racism - had an Irish girlfriend,
and would have shagged any European 'bird' if he had the chance... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM

Keith - btw... Fartage's German wife... not blonde & blue eyes by any chance.....?????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:25 AM

Pfr, you are going beyond the baseless claim of xenophobia and insinuating actual racism.
Any evidence for either?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:37 AM

Keith - remember.. I don't play that particular game of yours.. you won't get any satisfaction trying to draw me into it...

But I will continue to take the piss as and when I fancy it.... 😜

[ Though, the angel on one of my shoulders has made me commit to stop being too gratuitously sarcastic towards you personally...]

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

Arguments about whether people say they are English or British are soon liable to be settled when the Scots take their ball home. I suppose the Welsh might still hold on to the term British on occasion.

But I'm afraid stuff like "the Great British Bake-off" and so forth will be no more.

As for the Union Jack what'll they have instead? There've been some weird combinations suggested. Which would be fitting enough.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:46 AM

Arguments about whether people say they are English or British are soon liable to be settled when the Scots take their ball home. I suppose the Welsh might still hold on to the term British on occasion.

But I'm afraid stuff like "the Great British Bake-off" and so forth will be no more.

As for the Union Jack what'll they have instead. There've been some weird combinations suggested. Which would be fitting enough.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM

I give the Remain crowd credit for honesty, at least. They aren't even bothering to hide their utter contempt for people they see as inferior.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 12:30 PM

Shhh... listen carefully... is that long lost bobad transmitting from the Parallel Dimension of bizarre and bewildering alternative history and narratives...???


One day he was here, next he just mysteriously vanished up his own black hole... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 12:53 PM

People are similar at heart, fundamentalism aside.
If this polarizing asymmetrical referendum was offered to Texas
I expect the same result. The civil difference is that the big lies would be bigger in Texas such as arming against UN troop invasions.

There is a little known law that Texas has the state rights to divide their state into as many as five separate states. I hope the good citizens of Texas never find out.

The civil and wise contributors to this nation changing action know who they are and will note little difference to their day to day life.
In about 8 years the full impact will have reached its maximum and the pendulum of public sentiment will change momentum.

Equating a peaceful solidarity with national pride should keep things from going all drum and fife military demonstrations. I have too much faith in a traditional to descend into civil unrest.

Allow enough time for everyone to see the lies that were set before them.

In the US the turbulent undercurrent is not Trump or Obama or Clinton,
it is the backlash against Bush W for making suckers of 90% of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:34 PM

.. so could the referendum be challenged and annulled on grounds of misrepresentation & deception..???

or do voters not even have the same level of legal protection accorded to consumers...????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:35 PM

And I am rather savouring the delicious irony of the comrades having become the supporters of the status quo of the political elite whilst those they pretend to champion have rebelled against it.
Ya can't make this shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 01:48 PM

"Ya can't make this shit up."

.. seems you can't stop yourself trying to though... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 02:08 PM

And the situation grows more confused still, if that is possible. I have heard from several parties that article 50 would need to be agreed to be Parliament. If that is so, we can reasonably expect the SNP to vote solidly against it, as party stance and the Scottish reginal votes are in line. There will be some conservatives who vote to remain, despite the results. So everything could hinge on how many conservatives vote to reject the results, as it is only advisory, and how many labour vote to Brexit.

And we could then be in a position that the people voted out and the parliament can't initiate Artcle 50....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 04:36 PM

Ya can't make this shit up.

Ah, but you DO, Boo!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 16 - 05:30 PM

Since most Tory. MPs have constituencies which voted for Brexit, I can't see them standing out against it, whatever their personal views. And the same goes for a great many Labour MPs.

Of course in theory the Queen could dig her heels in and refuse consent, but somehow I can't see that happening. Though it would be interesting to see the political fallout from that - the natural monarchists attacking her, and the natural republicans finding her on their side. (If Charles had been King at this point, I actually can conceive of that happening...)

No, out means out. Between them David Cameron and Boris Johnson have roken the back of the country. Literally, most likely. The Eton Mess to end all Eton Messes. Except it won't.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:41 AM

I'm in Switzerland for a couple weeks, and it's interesting to read about the Brexit in the local newspapers. One column suggested that the UK should learn how to deal with the EU from Switzerland, which has had quite a productive relationship with the EU.
Another column said the EU needs to clean up its image as a faraway authority that makes life complicated. The column said the EU should pattern itself after the Swiss Confederation and become more representative of the people and less representative of power and financial interests. The Swiss seem to be quite proud of the way they run their government.
And on a lighter note, the papers say that all Swiss are Icelanders this week. There has been a lot of celebration here in Zurich after Iceland's football victory.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:59 AM

For all those who look back at pre EU with of rose tinted spectacles, should remember that the basic rate of income taz was 38%, and purchase tax, the precurser to VAT was set at 33.33%. If people are that keen to go back to the '#good old days', will you join me in demanding that the UK government restores direct and indirect taxes to these rates?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 02:32 AM

His first wife was Irish and his second German.
Both the right colour and of acceptable reiligion.
So what - the man is a xenophobe
Some of my best friends are,,,
Just got back from a ballad conference in Limerick - don't think I met anybody (from various places in the planet) who didn't regard the result as insanely self- destructive.
One elderly Irishman I met at a session on Tuesday, commented on the reports coming in of foreigners being approached and asked when they are going home, grinned, "They'll get used to it, we had to".
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:32 AM

They may get used to it, I wont. Xenophobia and racism are not acceptable, even if those who are victims get used to it or ignore it. It must be stamped on, and those who would shit-stir need to be hauled over the coals too. To quote the bard

Now let it work. Mischief, thou art afoot,
Take thou what course thou wilt

reminds me of a vile commodities trader.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:34 AM

Well the best thing the Swiss have managed to come up with after thousands of years of "civilisation" is the cuckoo clock.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:46 AM

It's also worth noting that Switzerland was only last year finally forced to come in line with other EU countries in agreeing to scrap its notorious banking secrecy rules which enabled money laundering and tax evasion on a legendary scale. And don't mention the war, to quote Basil. The country is also part of the Schengen zone, allowing free movement across its borders. In order to retain its good relations with the EU, it quite rightly has to abide by these EU rules.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 06:47 AM

I'm hoping Wales become independent, then join the EU and as my mum is Welsh I can get a Welsh passport and become part of Europe again.

Bloody Saxons.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:04 AM

Wales can get in line behind London which at least wants to be in the EU

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 07:25 AM

Lots of us want to be in the EU. My home town voted remain, so despite the fact the map shows the only orange as NI, Scotland and London, the UK is speckled with orange in reality.

Wales get behind London? Twll dy din.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 AM

We live in a democracy, if you add up all the orange speckles, you will find that the sum is a larger number than the other colour.

Perhaps democracy disturbs you when you are on the losing side?

The only way in which the result of a referendum can be determined is by a democratic first past the post vote.

Brexit had the largest number of votes....."Get used to it"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:13 AM

In saying that, I am sure determined attempts will be made to overturn the democratic result.

This should be strongly opposed by democrats of every political persuasion.......for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:51 AM

for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism.

You can't make this stuff up!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:17 AM

"...for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism."

And Farage isn't? That poster? "Not a shot fired" etc etc

The result stands, but Leave lied and blustered their way through the campaign (they've taken their website down because people were pointing at it and saying "but you said..."), and had zero plan for what would happen if they won. We still don't know what the plan is, the pound has tanked (this does affect business, as my brother has mentioned his costs have risen 6% on the back of the vote) and the country is rudderless.

Now Johnson has led us out of Europe and then fucked off without clearing up the mess he's made. Gove stabbed him in the back and the execrable Farage gloats and sneers at anyone stupid enough to listen.

We have no leadership at a time of real crisis, and "This should be strongly opposed by democrats of every political persuasion..."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:29 AM

Well now, let's have a look at some aspects of this "democratic result." The out campaign was predicated on the lie that leaving would drastically reduce immigration. Well it will not. Apart from the fact that we're just as "weak" at controlling the immigration that we CAN control, that from outside the EU, we will probably have hordes of expats coming home when they find that their EU membership advantages are evaporating. All those extra wrinklies to look after!   Poor old Tory-ravaged NHS! Next, a large majority of eligible voters did NOT vote to leave the EU. 52% of those who voted voted to leave. 48% of those who voted voted to stay. Another 28% of the TOTAL ELECTORATE also did NOT vote to leave. This is important because the referendum was extremely lopsided. An in vote could easily have been overturned by another referendum (and it's a good bet that you'd have been calling for one). The out vote, once buttons have been pushed, is irrevocable. That is what I mean by lopsided. I don't remember the out campaign making that clear. I do remember a lot of lies about "controlling our own borders," pretending via a disgusting, racist poster from your hero Farage that refugees, mostly black ones, were the same thing as EU immigrants, and about "taking back control," though the oil companies and the stock markets and the yanks, who "control" us a damn sight more than the EU ever does, didn't seem to get a mention. Very democratic, eh? Your democratic referendum has led to political chaos and a country split down the middle, not to speak of massive uncertainty and loss of confidence in the UK economy. So the campaigns were both predicated on lies and scaremongering. Yes, both. Expert politicians cynically denying the ordinary people the true facts on an extremely complex issue has nothing to do with democracy in my view. One outcome in particular, the crowing by ignoramuses such as akenaton, is ample evidence of that.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:31 AM

..all the way through the 'debates' Boris reminded me of coke addled commission only legal services and trade magazine advertising salesmen
I had to spend my working day with back in my lowest point of the 1980s..

The kind of egotistical obnoxious 'alpha males' who boasted they could sell anything to anybody stupid enough..


mind you.. they were good for free drinks and food when they often put their prestige credit cards behind the bar
to build up a tab trying to impress us and buy our friendship...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 11:34 AM

In honor of the American inability to take anything with 100% seriousness:


American States Brexit Nicknames

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 12:57 PM

Won't happen. We had a big discussion of that in 1861 to '65. A lot of "Leavers" are still crying unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 03:04 PM

"for this attitude is REALLY a "slippery slope" to Fascism."
No it isn't and it's significant that you do not describe the blatant racism of the entire Brexit campaign as "racist Fascism", which it was
One man's meat and all that....!
And still nonr of you have acknowledged that the result has split Britain down the middle, has threatened British jobs and has possibly caused the break-up of the United Kingdom - patriots and "socialists" eh....!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 05:43 PM

Of course Mr Farage is not a Fascist, his actions on this issue prove that he is definitely a democrat......he started this campaign almost single handed, was subjected to hysterical abuse, even on these pages as he illustrated the corruption an ineffectiveness of the EU project.
Only latterly was he joined by all other mainstream parties in questioning the policy of unregulated immigration.
Finally he has emerged victorious while his "liberal" enemies lick their wounds and plot revenge.

To attempt to overturn the result of a legal democratic vote because you don't like it....IS Fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 08:08 PM

I don't know which is more sickening, Ake - your hero-worship of The Trumpshit or of Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 03:34 AM

Greg, I understand and respect your point of view, but I don't think there is any point in you being insulting or distorting my words.

I have never supported Mr Trump, if I had a vote it would have been for Mr Sanders. I simply think that at the very least, in Foreign Affairs and in the interests of World Peace Mrs Clinton would be a disaster......her record speaks for itself and how anyone who claims to be "of the left" can possibly stomach her.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM

"I have never supported Mr Trump2
Your politics do
You certainly support racist scum like FARAGE
A "democratic" racist - new one on me!!
What about the democracy of the many Asians who are British citizens living in Britain - does democracy not cover them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:48 AM

What about the democracy of the many Asians who are British citizens living in Britain - does democracy not cover them?
Jim Carroll
Yes, indeed.
Many of them voted in the referendum, and many were interviewed on TV and made clear their intention to vote for Brexit.
One doesn't need to be racist to realise that unrestricted immigration is likely to upset the current balance in this country, and prejudice some against those immigrants who have already settled here, and integrated well into their/our communities.

The Brexit vote was not so much against immigration, as against unrestricted (or uncontrolled) immigration.
Of course it suited the Remain camp to be able to paint those who wished to leave Europe as xenophobic, but lies were told on both sides of the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

So what about small businesses and workers n the meantime?

For the security of small businesses and workers, until such change to trade terms has been mutually agreed, then access to the single market, and all the conditions that go with it still stand. In that case surely small businesses and workers should be entitled to representation in the decision making process that inform these conditions. Therefore UK should either have a say in the European Parliament and Council of Ministers, or their should be a joint a several obligation for the other 27 states to represent UK small business and workers interests.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 09:34 AM

I have never supported Mr Trump,

Oh PLEASE, Ake- go back and read your own posts fer chrissake.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:12 AM

"Many of them voted in the referendum, and many were interviewed on TV and made clear their intention to vote for Brexit."
And just as many didn't
The decision was passed by a marginal majority which means a large unknown number of British people neither supported nor opposed it so neither side can claim they have overall support.
Scotland and Northern Ireland opposed it to the extent of suggesting that it was time they broke with the U.K. (why do done of you fellers have the bottle to deal with the fact that this decision has threatened the very existence of the U.K. - isn't it important to you?)
"One doesn't need to be racist to realise that unrestricted immigration is likely to upset the current balance in this country,"
One does need to be a racist to have mounted the kind of campaign Farage mounted - likewise those who voted only on the question of race and immigration - the economic and political consequences have proved disastrous since the decision was taken and stand to get worse.
This campaign was Powellism writ large.
Some facts it is very hard to get a response from you fellers onme
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe.
Worldwide, there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide
How do you people square those statistics with your attitude to immigration - especially considering that all thes are economic migrants and not refugees?
Holding my breath.........
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:50 AM

A further observation
I've travelled a far amount - the length and breadth of these islands, East and West Europe, North Africa, even into the fringes of Asia, and have been left with the impression that in general Brits are like some wine, they don't travel well.
We have an appalling track record on languages and expect people to be able to speak English, we can be aggressive and demanding when we don't get what we want when we want it, we speak down to people, often loudly.
As holidaymakers, we take over places and ruin them - Faliraki, Aya Nappa, whole stretches of coast in Spain - I used to love Northern Crete until the yobs moved into the towns.
As residents, we form little enclaves of "our own kind", such as in Cyprus, and the White Villages of Southern Spain -
In one of my favourite parts of the world, Northern Greece, British property firms are setting up here to sell homes to Brits to the extent that locals can no longer afford to buy homes there..
We are neither good tourists not are we good migrants.
Flip the coin the other way and you find that most immigrants come to Britain speaking English, they set up businesses, of ten filling gaps that we don't want to occupy, their kids are high achievers at school and, despite sometimes violent racist harassment, they integrate when they are allowed to.
In spite of the reputation laid on them by the racist press, a survey a few years ago revealed that MUSLIMS integrate well into British society.
They certainly make better migrants than we do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 04:11 PM

I take comfort from the adage attributed to Sir Winston that democracy is a rotten form of government except for all the others. What I find scary is that a democratic form of government can degrade to something ill and violent and not be reversable - ever. Orwell's opus "1984" illustrated this brilliantly, especially the afterword on Newspeak where he demonstrated how regulating the language regulated thought.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the E U is imperfect but better than nothing and has strong bureaucratic institutions which are enraging. I think that most people voted for leave or remain without necessarily understanding the institution. Not unlike Americans, the hype of both sides exceeded sober reflection.

On the other hand I understood that English was the most common tongue used among the European Union states. Kind of ironic that the master of the language should drop out participation.

My take is that the U K leaving the E U lessons its influence without changing the overall trade regulations that are required by the E U. The U K must have something greatly to gain in its relationship with the non E U world to make the Leave vote worthwhile. I don't know what that is.

The issue of control over its own immigration is the part of the issue I know least about, but it seems to me that this is a European wide problem which won't go away simply by the U K peeling out.

I think the BRexit vote is overall unfortunate but not a disaster, just indicative that disaster is possible, because we are free to vote for it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM

Please do not condemn me for my linguistic abilities. I have taken the trouble to learn Czech - I have enrolled in classes for several years, but I do not have an aptitude for languages so I am very slow to remember grammar and learn vocabulary. I am picking up more and more organically when I visit Praha or my partner visits me, but it is still hard. Please do not label me as a racist because of this.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 12:50 PM

'We are the 48%': tens of thousands march in London for Europe
'We've been disenfranchised and hoodwinked,' say protesters as hotel chambermaids come to the windows to cheer.

Ed Vulliamy

Saturday 2 July 2016

The hollow, bitter wit of the banners and placards was a fair indication of who took to the streets of London, in their tens of thousands, on the March for Europe on Saturday, hastily scrambled on Facebook. "And if this isn't big enough," said Jonathan Shakhovskoy, who is with a marketing firm in the music industry, "we'll do it again next week, and the week after. Normalise the mood, make it less ugly."

"Un-Fuck My Future", "No Brex Please, We're British", they read. Pictures of Whitney Houston with "I Will Always Love EU", "Europe Innit" and "I wanna be deep inside EU". "All EU Need is Love", "Fromage not Farage", "Eton Mess" and, more seriously, "Science Needs EU". "Hell no, we won't go!" they shouted, rounding Piccadilly Circus.

No one was fooling themselves that these were the penitent huddled masses from Ebbw Vale or Sunderland come to beg after all for EU funding; this was a vocal segment of the 48% for whom departure from the EU is a disgrace, a catastrophe or both.

"I'm here because I feel totally disenfranchised, hoodwinked and browbeaten into this political, financial and social suicide," said Mark Riminton, a business consultant from Sussex.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/02/march-for-europe-eu-referendum-london-protest

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:26 PM

The unexpected pleasure of the last week is old man Hesletine's TV interviews furiously criticising Boris..

Hesletine is hilarious in his brusque anggry sense of betrayal...

.. and to think.. when I was a student how much we despised him..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 01:57 PM

Ok. Jim Carroll, you can stop holding your breath.
I will respond to some of your 'facts', although I realise you will never be able to accept the response, as it clashes with your pre-conceptions:
Some facts it is very hard to get a response from you fellers onme (sic)
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe.
Worldwide, there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide
How do you people square those statistics with your attitude to immigration - especially considering that all thes (sic) are economic migrants and not refugees?
Holding my breath.........
Jim Carroll

"There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe"
There are currently more than that working in the UK alone, and (for our sins) we are currently part of Europe.

"there are at least THIRTY THOUSAND Brits claiming dole in Europe." There are more than that on the dole in the UK alone (see the previous comment for definitions)

"there are THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION Brits working worldwide" Yes, I believe there are currently more than 30 million people working within the UK, which, last time I checked, is part of the world. I also fail to recognise a figure of "THREE POINT NINETY SEVEN MILLION " no matter how hard you shout it (use of block capitals) you cannot have point ninety seven of a million, perhaps you mean 3.97 million, or Three point nine seven million".

If you can't make your points in reasonable English, maybe you'd like to try Irish, then we can (nearly) all ignore you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 16 - 02:35 PM

Well, Nigel, it was all perfectly clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 03:25 AM

ooer Missus, Trump+Boris image a bit out of date but then a day in politics is a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 04:21 AM

"If you can't make your points in reasonable English, maybe you'd like to try Irish, then we can (nearly) all ignore you."
I make my points the best I can with my limited English education - I hadn't realised that you needed a certificate in literacy to take pert in these discussions - as it is, I don't think I do too bad for an electrician in the building trade.
Typos rule with you, as they do with the rest of your mob, it seems.
None of your points explain Brexit and they certainly won't when those now working in Europe start having to move back to a Britain without work.
The aim of your campaign is to stop immigration, or is the next step Powell's repatriation to the war zones - that would drag Britain down to sewer level.
We owe these people refuge, morally and historically.
We shaped many of the countries for the benefit of Empire and left them in a mess, we continue to back the monsters who run many of them, politically and with arms, and we fill our shops made by workers paid slave-level workers in factories falling on their heads.
The destabilisation of the Middle East came about so we could continue to but cheap petrol.
The snipers on the streets of Homs were probably trained with ammunition licenced to be sold from the U.K. and the chemicals used on the Syrian people may well have been developed using British-sourced components.
When Assad was doing his worst, Britain could have helped stop his gallop by seizing his London-held property and adding our voice to the protests - that's what his former henchmen who had defected were suggesting - they were ignored
Morally, we owe sanctuary to all people in trouble (Im not a Christian, but I do know that's what Christianity claims to be about)   
Wonder what the death-count would have been had Britain refused sanctuary to those fleeing Hitler - it is a similar refusal you people have voted for with this squalid vote.
Hope there weren't too many typos in that one for you to be able to follow it!!
Tories - don't you *******' love 'em!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM

With nothing particular to contribute to the main discussion, feel I must deplore that recent unwarranted attack on Jim Carroll. He is one with whom I have frequently disagreed on threads - our pov's tend to be politically and ideologically chalk·n·cheesy. But I almost always find his points cogently and intelligently argued. Unlike the foolish character in that Jane Austen quote I am always citing, he well "deserves the compliment of rational opposition" — which that ill-natured & spiteful recent post did not provide!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

Thank you Mike - the cheque's in the post
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

Welcome Jim: really meant every word. Trouble with irony tho, as I have remarked before, is that it can be a 2-edged weapon. Bet the silly guy believes there really is a cheque!

☺≈M≈☺

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:21 AM

"Bet the silly guy believes there really is a cheque!"
Nah - he's a bright feller!!
Sorry I've not responded to your article by the way - silly couple of weeks, crashed car, lost wallet, ballad conference.
I will respond in detail#
Jim
(must ask you how you do those faces!)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

Nigel, I don't get your post at all. How does the number of British people working and claiming benefits in the UK have to to do with an illustrative example of the number of UK workers and Benefit claimants benefiting from free movement rules under the single market to show that people from the EU working and claiming benefits in UK is not a one ways 'burden to taxpayers'.   If you want us to also discuss your point, can you also give us the numbers of EU nationals working and claiming benefits in the rest of the EU, so that we have all the comparative figures on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

Michael, one word of advice.....examine that cheque carefully   ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

I always examine cheques carefully.

Jim, re the ☺·faces·☺ — On  - which my computer is - there is a 'special characters' app which one accesses by scrolling down to the bottom of Edit on the header menu. Don't know about other computers, but I expect such an amenity must be thereabouts somewhere.

No sweat about the Married In Green note. Sorry to hear of your troubles & travails. Look forward to your comments in duke-horse, but no rush.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

My point, which I may have failed to make clear, is that Jim's statements are pointless.
There are ONE POINT TWO MILLION Brits living and working in Europe
This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other "facts" I quoted. As such the figures must be taken as inclusive of persons living in Britain. This makes the "fact" pointless in advancing Jim's arguments.

As Jim went on to say that it is hard to get responses on these facts, it would help if the meaning of the facts was made clear. It might just be that he uses 'Europe' to mean 'all of Europe except the UK' but that changes the meaning of his words.

If the facts are presented clearly and unambiguously then they can be either argued with, or accepted. But while they are ambiguous it is pointless trying to refute them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:32 PM

Here's my two-pennorth for what it's worth (about E0.024 at the last count). Although I was deeply disappointed by the result, I was resigned to accepting it. Then the Leavers started to shilly-shally and go back on their promises. Then I read this by A C Grayling, someone whose opinions I greatly respect, and my scepticism deepened.

Right now I think that the Leave negotiators (whoever they might be) need to give guarantees that they can make good the promises on which they won the vote. If that's not possible (and I can't see how it could be) then they should not press the Article 50 button and start the countdown. Simplistic? Maybe, but otherwise we are taking a huge step in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

As ruthlessly demonstrated.. the ends justify the means as far as Gove is concerned...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:59 AM

"This sentence does not mention mainland Europe and neither do the other"
Meaning what? - there are that many Britons who stand to be sent back to a Britain that is unable to offer them a home of their own or employment
What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
Shortly after the result over a million people announced that they regretted voting the way they did and had only done so as a protest vote - they described their reasons for voting as they dis as having been told "lies" - that doubt has been confirmed by the lies already exposed and will grow as the full consequences become apparent.
This contest was fought on a single issue - immigration - and it has shamed Britain.
I attended a music conference last week made up of people from several nations - everyone I met condemned the decision outright.
Nobody here yet has had the bottle to comment of the possible break-up of the U.K. - presumably they don't care.
I never thought I'd ever live to see Britain voting on a racist issue (let's face it, the economic consequences were well-enough predicted, and fairly obvious).
Such an important decision should have required a considerable majority in favour in order to have been passed - less that %2 was irresponsible.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

Business confidence is dropping off a cliff as the Leavers bicker and jostle for power without any coherent plan for Brexit. This avoidance of responsibility is totally unacceptable, they need to get on with sorting their mess out.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:14 AM

What do you suggest Nigel - that immigrants be repatriated and their homes and jobs be offered to returnees - that would be a shift to ne Apartheid, racially pure Britain now, wouldn't it?
I have made no such suggestion. Even Farage & Johnson have both made clear that they have no intention of repatriating those who already here legally. The point of regaining control of our own borders is just to allow the country to set limits on future immigration from the EU, as we already have the power to restrict immigration from outside the EU. How this equates to being 'racist' I fail to see. (many of those who would be caught by such measures are, in view of their being from the EU, Caucasians, just as I am.
Also I disagree that this was fought on a single issue. Those voting for leave may have been swayed by that issue, but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:07 AM

Hi Nigel

<" but for many it was about repatriation: Repatriating powers to UK Parliament ">

You are absolutely right.

Cheers

MNike

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 10:54 AM

What Stu means by falling off a cliff

As the Republic of Ireland use the Euro (Which they originally did not want to do and voted so in a Referendum) does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? Remembering of course that the UK Government only has to look after it's own currency and economy, while Germany has to look after the EU's Eurozone.

I think that MGOH is perfectly correct the Leave vote and the referendum result will stand - God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not - as the lesson that will strike home will be that anybody has the right to overturn anything if it does not suit them. The entire electorate of the country plus all UK Expats living in the EU had the opportunity to vote in the duly constituted EU Referendum on the 23th June 2016. Voter turn out was the highest seen for nearly one quarter of a century, which kinda suggests that those who wanted to vote did. If you don't like the result?? TOUGH.

The sky will not fall in, the world will continue to turn, politicians, civil servants, financiers and businessmen will continue to do what they always do - WHY?? Because it is in their MUTUAL best interests to negotiate deals and keep the train on the tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

"Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly?"

What!?! Last week the exchange rate was slightly over 1.30 euro to the pound. Today it is under 1.17 euro to the pound.

A drop of more than 10% So all our new imports will now cost 10% more than they did last week.

Is this supposed to be good news?

What planet are you on.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

" does that mean that Jom's UK pension paid in £Sterling which then has to be converted to Euros has taken a hit? Mitigated possibly by the Euro falling as badly? ~
Blame somebody else as you did when the Northern Irish economy took a smack (then it was the quaintly archaic 'gombeen men")
The entire econimy of Europe and beyong stands to suffer after this stupidly bigoted decision to leave - pensions being just one of those effected
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/pensions/brexit-400000-britons-living-on-the-continent-could-have-state-pensions-frozen-a6898756.html
"God help democracy and the democratic process in this country if it does not "
Would tat be the "democracy" that you claim makes us answerable to the State rather than the other way around?
Your Fascism and Democracy are contradictions in terms.
GLOBAL ECONOMY
"Jom's"
I can always tell when you're bluffing - your typing finger tens to shake.
Grow up, for fuck's sake!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 12:37 PM

Interesting comment from Kenneth Clarke that perhaps some of the "leavers" on this site may want to consider.

Referring to Andrea Leadsom he said "she not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a glorious economic future outside the single market"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:16 PM

And who Raggy for one nano-second reckons that the UK will not trade with EU on mutually agreed terms - certainly NOT the Germans - they need us to buy their stuff more than we need them to buy ours.

If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives, in the meantime our goods and services have just got cheaper for foreign buyers boosting exports and foreign currency earnings - TRUE?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM

"If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives

Great advice for musicians, and anyone active in audio, recording, and media production....

The last british manufactured equipment many of us could actually afford was approx 35 years ago... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

buy UK alternatives

assuming, of course, that there are any.......

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

Are you " active in audio, recording, and media production" pfr? I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:33 PM

"If you don't like the result?? TOUGH."

Nope. Time for you to shoulder your responsibility and make this work rather than gloat. Time to show your mettle.

Also, your link returns a 404.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:57 PM

I have been shouldering my responsibilities for over 50 years Stu, and have not made too bad a job of them. Besides I am not the one complaining about the referendum or the result. Others here were of the opinion that a Remain vote was so certain they even posted before the result was known that those Brexit supporters should show their respect for democracy and bow to the "will of the people" - but of course they are and proved themselves to be great believers in "One law for the Goose another for the Gander" such is their commitment to democracy.

Of course it is going to work irrespective of whether or not the UK is in or out of the EU. Hell if a decision to trigger Article 50 was taken in the UK tomorrow we would still be in the EU for at least the next two-and-a-half years, possibly three. Its the likes of you who appear to be running around like headless chickens bemoaning ills that have not even presented themselves so far. The world is a big place, far bigger than Europe, over the last three years our trade with that world has been ever increasing, while that with Europe has been declining. Easier for us negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world as a member of the EU? Don't make me laugh, ask Switzerland and Singapore who have in the last couple of decades made five times the number of foreign trade deals than the EU have - WHY? because they can do so without recourse to asking anyone else's permission to do so.

The link? cannot think what went wrong with it - but it is from the Guinard - basically tells you that the FTSE has risen about 5.5% since the referendum result became known - some drop in two weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM

"Are you " active in audio, recording, and media production" pfr? I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country."...??????

Are you making a point that is any way not dismissive and condescending to all of the amateur and semi pro, and most pro artists here at mudcat...???

Do we have to be awarded a Queens's honour to count as worthwhile for the nation...???



Why are you here at a folk music site...???

after all.. what use could music or culture possibly be to outrageously pompous old rules 'n' policies obsessed bureaucrats..???

oh.. of course Trad British folk is perhaps the only tolerable culture for mean spirited nationalists..... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 05:43 PM

I mean in any sense that would be of any importance to the country.

Amusing coming from a person of no importance whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 06:49 PM

Well GregF, pfr put that up as a possible reason for someone to evaluate as to whether or not it worth while to vote Remain or Leave. IMHO it would not make the slightest difference if one was "active in audio, recording, and media production" as the consummate professional anyone calling themselves a punkfolkrocker they would insist and ensure that they had top-line equipment in order to keep themselves "active in audio, recording, and media production" world. Personally, as someone of absolutely no importance at all, who has shouldered all of their responsibilities for as long as I have, I would imagine that many other criteria would feature long before considerations relating to being "active in audio, recording, and media production".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:03 PM

Why do I think I am reading a bitter and twisted old man?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:37 PM

Raggytash wrote: Why do I think I am reading a bitter and twisted old man?

Because you wrote it?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM

Smug beyond sense & reason...

If Teribus is the kind of nationalist who would enthusiastically conscript young men to fight and die for his beloved nation,
why would he care how many were musicians, artists, poets, and all other useless creative arty farty types....???

I try to look for the best in people,
and although I tend to respect his articulate written skills,
his posts reek of conceit and hostility, portraying himself as a hateful spiteful old man...

So why is he even a mudcat member..???
he better have a damn good singing voice, or mastery of a musical instrument
to make up for his apparent contempt for 21st century creative people.....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:15 PM

Teribus - btw forgot to mention.. stick to pontificating on the dreary subjects you claim to have such advanced knowledge of...

Your last post makes you look seriously out of touch and rather silly...


My 'top line equipment' is mass manufactured in the far east.
and is sufficiently state of the art for hundreds of thousands, if not millions
of contemporary UK audio visual practitioners.

What pitiful little that still remains of UK manufacture, is prohibitively priced cottage workshop engineering...
conspicuous consumption status sybols for the elite few.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitied to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country. The irrevocable bit is crucial and it's what makes this different from general elections, which, given five years, can be reversed. And that's before we even start to consider the illegitimate grounds on which the campaign was fought, which prioritised feeding prejudice and stoking fear rather than informing people. There should have been a threshold turnout requirement and a threshold majority requirement, and, as the latter involved a suggested massive change to the status quo, it should have been a two-thirds majority at least. Rather than shrugging your shoulders smugly at your "victory," I should like to see you trying to justify the arguments put during the campaign by your side. You could start with the Farage poster. Awkward, eh? It's also notable to see how many Brexiteers are now jumping ship. Boris gone, Farage gone, and, very likely, Gove gone (by design, I'm almost certain), not sticking around to tell us what's going to happen next. Bloody cowards. They've all got what they absolutely didn't expect and now they're running scared.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:19 PM

Personally, as someone ... who has shouldered all of their responsibilities for as long as I have...

Do much staring at your reflection, do you Terrinarcissus?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 16 - 09:44 PM

It's taken me this long to remember the last British manufactured musical equipment I purchased..

approx 8 years ago, for my 50th, I treated myself to 2 amplifiers made by the Laney, and Hayden Companies.
[managed to get a few hundred quid off each..]

Marketed as made in UK; near certainty they were assembled in the UK from mostly Chinese components.
With a significant retail price mark up, compared to if they had been entirely assembled in China and imported complete.

Personally I think it would be brilliant if 'Made in Britain' meant exactly that,
and we could return to the legendary era of genuine UK Vox, Marshall, Burns, Ferrograph, etc standards of manufacture and affordability.

They weren't the cheapest, but a buyer would be assured they could last decades.

Marshall still make limited runs of real hand build UK amps,
but they are the equivalent of Rolls & Bentley pricing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 01:58 AM

As you said punkfolkrocker - 05 Jul 16 - 07:53 PM IF Teribus was ..... Fortunately he isn't, I can tell you with 100% certainty that he is no fan of nationalism of any sort and, having been himself a volunteer, would enthusiastically conscript no-one.

Not surprised at all that whatever it is that you have to buy to keep yourself "active in audio, recording, and media production" as a punkfolkrocker comes from the far east in which case the being in the EU is of f**k all help as ever since Lisbon was signed by some secret back door conniving the EU has not successfully negotiated any international trade deal with anyone. The EU as an organisation is corrupt, protectionist, inward looking, unaccountable and inefficient, a cosy club set up solely for the benefit of Germany and France that has wrecked havoc in the weaker economies of the southern EU states - and this you want to shackle us to???

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:48 AM

"Besides I am not the one complaining about the referendum or the result."
A hell of a lot of people are - it seems that a lot of people care more about the damage that has been done to Britain by this racist based decision than you do.
I assume that we've finished with the "pensions" bit?
Noticeable that, like all bullies, all you have to do is stand up to them and they do a runner - spineless lot of feckers - all blow and no substance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:42 AM

Steve Shaw - 05 Jul 16 - 08:44 PM

The thing is, Teribus, less than 38% of the total electorate, about 17 million out of 46.5 million entitled to vote, have forced an irrevocable decision on this country.


EHmmmm No Steve, the thing is that on the 23rd June 2016, 46.5 million people in the UK were registered to vote and eligible to vote in the EU Referendum. Out of that number ~17.5 million voted to leave and ~16.2 million voted to remain. Which means that out of 46.5 million people only ~34 million could be bothered to haul their backsides down to the Polling Station to vote, or be arsed enough to post their postal ballot. If you do not vote in a referendum that forces an irrevocable decision on this country then you have got absolutely no right to complain about the result, every single one of those 46.5 million people had their chance to vote 33,551,983 actually took it and cast their votes in the correct manner - That Steve Shaw - is the thing - And the ones who swung it for the Leave Campaign - traditional Labour Voters in England.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Kenneth Clarke

I notice neither of the "opposition" on this forum have made any reference to the words of the Tory Grandee Kenneth Clarke

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

The Tory leadership election is a sort of X Factor for choosing the antichrist

For those with a sense of humor and a lesson in character assassination

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:20 AM

Any particular reason why anyone blessed with a mind of their own should Raggy?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:32 AM

Oh just that he probably has greater access to information and facts than I do. He was not electioneering but speaking privately to a colleague and thus what he said is more likely to be an honest assessment of the situation.

Referring to Leadsom he says "she is not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside of the single market"

The sort of glorious economic future you maintain we can have.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

Well that response doesn't surprise me in the least, Teribus. But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable whilst a remain vote could easily be (and almost certainly would have been) revisited. The Irish had another pot at Lisbon. The Scots will probably have another pot at independence. But when we're out, were out. No way back, no second bash. You may be happy with first past 50% of those who turned out in this vote but I'm not. The plain fact is that slightly more than one-third of the electorate, who disagree with the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, are dragging this country out of the EU (and I notice you haven't bothered to address the serious deficiencies of the campaign I mentioned - uncomfortable for both sides but more especially for leave, whose promises on immigration can't be kept). In this country, by the way, if someone doesn't turn out to vote they are not disfranchised. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else. We call that democracy. And in no way am I trying to claim that the 28% who didn't vote would have voted my way. What I am saying is that 38% of the electorate voting leave is not the same thing at all as "the nation has spoken." If you were in a board meeting and fewer than four board members out of ten voted for a resolution, you would not be able to come out of the meeting declaring that "the board has spoken." The 50% threshold for a decision of this magnitude is simply not good enough. Imagine us being dragged into WW3 on the basis of 38% of the electorate choosing war. Wow.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:19 AM

A number of points Raggy -

First:
Most people seem to have better access to facts than you do judging by what you post here.

Second:
Kenneth Clarke is well known for his lifelong commitment to the EU, so hardly impartial, irrespective of who he is talking to on the subject. The person he was talking to by the way appeared to Malcolm Rifkind.

Third:
When have I ever stated any likelihood of any economic future for this country that did not include trading relations with Europe? We just do not have to be in the EU to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:36 AM

I do find it strange that you are one of the people who complain most vociferously against personal abuse but are one of it's main protagonists.

It also seems that you cannot read Teribus.

What Kenneth Clarke said was "she is not one of the mindless, tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside of the single market"

We WILL be outside that market and you seem to think we will still be able to trade on the same footing as we do now. We will not. The EU will not allow that, that is one of it's functions to protect those who are part of it, which we will no longer be very shortly thanks to the leave vote.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 07:51 AM

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 06:42 AM

What complete and utter twaddle.

1:   But this is not a game. This is an irrevocable, once-and-for-all decision. It is far more serious even then a general election in many regards. It is also lopsided in that a leave vote is irrevocable whilst a remain vote could easily be (and almost certainly would have been) revisited. The Irish had another pot at Lisbon. The Scots will probably have another pot at independence. But when we're out, were out. No way back, no second bash.

Where on earth did you get that claptrap from? Where does it say ANYWHERE that having invoked Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that the UK CANNOT reapply for membership of the EU - Go off and check Shaw and you find that nothing about leaving is irrevocable.


2: You may be happy with first past 50% of those who turned out in this vote but I'm not.

Too bad for you then Shaw, we had a referendum on that as well in 2011 and it would appear that you were on the losing side of that one as well.


3: The plain fact is that slightly more than one-third of the electorate, who disagree with the overwhelming majority of our elected representatives, are dragging this country out of the EU

Unfortunately in a referendum the elected representatives have exactly the same rights as the electorate and members of the Lords. The Elected Representatives cannot complain about the referendum as they had to debate an Act of Parliament to hold one.


4: In this country, by the way, if someone doesn't turn out to vote they are not disfranchised. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else. We call that democracy. And in no way am I trying to claim that the 28% who didn't vote would have voted my way. What I am saying is that 38% of the electorate voting leave is not the same thing at all as "the nation has spoken."

In this country if someone doesn't turn out to vote then THEY have squandered their vote and disenfranchised themselves on that particular issue. They are permitted the same voice as everyone else and all the same rights up until the polling stations closed, after which their views as irrelevant as they did not bother to vote. And YES on the subject of Should the UK Remain or Leave the EU then 38% of the electorate voting to Leave DOES show the will of the nation.

5: Imagine us being dragged into WW3 on the basis of 38% of the electorate choosing war. Wow.

Idiotic argument Shaw and you know it - decisions as to whether or not the nation goes to war would never be decided by a referendum by the time the ballot papers had been printed we'd have lost it, you clown.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:10 AM

We WILL be outside that market and you seem to think we will still be able to trade on the same footing as we do now. We will not. The EU will not allow that, that is one of it's functions to protect those who are part of it, which we will no longer be very shortly thanks to the leave vote." - Raggy

Show me where I have ever said or thought that - "we will still be able to trade {With the EU} on the same footing as we do now" - I think that you will find that I have stated that the basis upon which we trade with the EU will have to be negotiated and at the moment Raggy neither you nor I know what the outcome of such negotiations will be. That negotiations WILL take place is undoubted - The EU sell more to us than we sell to the EU - which means Raggy if the point is not too difficult for you to grasp, if they do not negotiate a deal THEY end up worse off in terms of lost trade and lost jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

Your knowledge of Macro-economics seem to be somewhat lacking, so you revert to what you do best which is to shout I AM RIGHT from the rooftops in the vain hope that someone may believe you.

Do you not understand what Kenneth Clarke said, that outside of the single market we will not have a glorious economic future. To put it bluntly we may well be f**ked. We will lose jobs, we will lose job security, we will lose some of the protection in employment that has been fought for.

Not that you will care a toss for the poor buggers who will suffer. I suspect like me, you are retired, collect your pension and live a reasonable life. It is not us that will be one's who suffer but our children and grandchildren.

The one's you and the other out voters have sold down the river.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM

I think it's far greater claptrap to suggest that there's anything other than a cat in hell's chance of us leaving then reapplying. Well I suppose it could happen by the time you and I are 150. 😂 And I was not in the remotest sense suggesting that a war should be entered into via a referendum, simply suggesting a scenario in which less that two-fifths of the country explicitly wanted it then claiming that as the national will. Frankly, the will of the nation has not been proven on the EU, nowhere near. And I'm amazed at your undemocratic attitude as to who has the right to a say in this country. There is no obligation to vote yet there an obligation to pay taxes to pay for government. If I go to my MP's next surgery to protest about this decision, he has absolutely no right to know if I voted or not and he must treat me in the same way as any other constituent of his. If I sign a petition calling for a second referendum there is no qualifying box to tick which asks me whether or not I voted in the first one. Not everyone who fails to vote does it out of laziness or forgetfulness and you have no right to prejudge their motive, or lack of it, for not doing so. If you want to accuse other people of having undemocratic attitudes, you really do need to put your own house in order first.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 08:52 AM

And there you go, prejudging what you think I did in 2011. As it happens, you got that completely wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:17 AM

Isn't it odd that a fascist like Teribus who syas we are all subservient to the State yet sets such store about such a small minority - and still refuses to acknowledge the damage done to Britain by this vote (not alone there).
jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:48 AM

Why don't you all just stop digging, Mr T is making you look stupid ...and Jim see someone about that Fascist/racist conspiracy theory.

Absolute nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:04 AM

Good to see that Teribus's yappy dog is by his side. Bet Teribus wishes he had him better trained. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:08 AM

Ah good heavens I am apparently a "fascist" now am I?

Another baseless accusation to add to the list.

Pray tell where I did state that - "we are all subservient to the State"?

Don't worry Jom, we both know that it is just more of your "Made-Up-Shit" and to date you have never been able to come up with any past examples and nobody really expects you to do so now. The fact that you won't will register with anyone reading this thread.

As for setting store by small minorities of 38% of the total electorate, but 52.2% of those who actually did turn out to vote in the EU Referendum (Biggest voter turn out in the UK since 1992) all that means is that I believe in democracy whereas you and such as you patently do not.

Raggytash - 06 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM - More hot air predictions based on S.F.A.

Steve Shaw - 06 Jul 16 - 08:49 AM - So your claim that the vote to Leave means that it is irrevocable is complete and utter bullshit - thanks for the admission - by the way it was Jean-Claude Juncker who stated that the UK could reapply whenever it wanted to at any point in the future.

"I'm amazed at your undemocratic attitude as to who has the right to a say in this country"

Care to give an example of that "undemocratic attitude"? 46.5 million people had a right to vote, where did I gainsay any of them their right to vote? Very close to 3 out of every 4 people who could vote did. What part of the highest voter turn out since 1992 fails to register with you? Have you complained about and wish to reverse every vote taken in the UK since then?

The only person demonstrating any "undemocratic attitude" is you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:18 AM

apologies for delay.. I slept late after taking sedative antihistamines and forgetting to open the curtains...

Teribus - enjoy amusing yourself so much with my mudcat name..
I've mentioned many times that it was only ever meant as a one off joke taking the piss out of reactionary acoustic folkie bigots..

[my own personal preference is actually for trad folk, sung and played in a simple unadorned trad style, with minimal instrumental accompaniment..]

That was 15 years ago.. I don't even like the name.. but it stuck..
and yet it's purpose continues...

As to why you were fixated on repeatedly copy 'n' pasting "active in audio, recording, and media production"...????

Seems to be just further indication of your prejudices & contempt for activities you consider beneath your position of superiority
as arbiter of what culturally is or not in the national interest...?????

Now on to your lack of sympathy for a hard up hard pressed population experiencing rising prices due to the inevitable drop in value of the £...

An item on my wish list has overnight risen from £16 to £27..
thankfully something I don't need to replace right now.

But as nearly all 'essentials' are manufactured overseas and imported,
and as most of us are already financially overstretched 'recovering' from the banking crisis... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 12:23 PM

"The EU sell more to us than we sell to the EU "

(1) And who is offering to refund me the increased prices due to the exchange rate - not just imported finished goods, but goods that we manufacture where the EU forms part of the supply chain?

(2)At the moment We are only 10% of the EU's potential internal market. Not a big loss to the EU if we don't purchase but a big loss to us if EU doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

Gee whiz, SPB, don't confuse the T-Bird with the facts, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 02:53 PM

"If the stuff we buy from abroad has just got dearer then we either buy less or look for and buy UK alternatives"


Tech companies blame price rises on Brexit vote

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:00 PM

Ah good heavens I am apparently a "fascist" now am I?"
Been here, done that - keep up.
Anybody who believes that the State is more important than the individual or the family is a classic fascist - that's what fascism is.
You've been pretty unequivocal on this on this forum and in the past - getting on our bikes rather than claiming the dole we financed throughout our working lives was your most recent goose-stepping exercise "betraying your country, springs to mind.
You were challenged than and as usual, chose to ignore it, which I took to be admittance of your position.
You have yet to produce one example of "made up shit" - you did a runner each time it was proved otherwise.
"The fact that you won't will register with anyone reading this thread."
It is you pair of clowns (occasionally joined by Bobad the troll) who constantly find yourselves on your own, not me - want to go back to Easter Week, or WW1 or the Famine threads ; the most recognisable picture we have of you is your back disappearing into the distance - (not forgetting your boorishly loutish behaviour.
Try seeing yourself as others see you
Talking of betraying your country - anything on the fact that the Brexit vote has put the UK's existence at risk - another fact you lot have shown a clean pair of heels on.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:55 AM

getting on our bikes rather than claiming the dole we financed throughout our working lives was your most recent goose-stepping exercise

Unfortunately though Jom, there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into. So when a job that they want does turn up they lose out as their prospective employer looks at their previous track record and then selects another candidate who actually knows what having a job means.

Reality check for you Jom:

1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life.
2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life.
3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population, it is not responsible for looking after the individual who choses to be idle from cradle to grave. Those who envisaged and created the Welfare System in the UK, if they saw it today and the extent to which it is being abused would throw up their arms in despair.

By all means reintroduce the threads you refer to and I will continue to hammer you on fact, chronology, detail, logic, reason and common sense - beats your biased, bigoted, ill-informed opinion and unsubstantiated twaddle any day.

Greg F. - 06 Jul 16 - 02:30 PM

What facts Greg? So far SPB-Cooperator hasn't supplied any facts that stand up to examination. The answers to his questions however are:

1) Nobody.

2) The UK represented 12.5% of the EU and was after Germany it's biggest net contributor. When the UK leaves the EU that will leave a hole that the other ten net contributors will have to make good - without making some form of deal with the UK that will prove difficult for them. In pure trading terms the UK's trade with the EU per year stands at £228 billion, the EU's trade with the UK stands at £282 billion. Within the EU the UK is Germany's best customer, harm the German economy and the EU is basically toast.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

A sign of things to come.

Dell Compueter have increased their costs to retailer by 10% as from the 1st July. No doubt a sign if things to come.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/05/dell_confirms_price_rise_post_brexit_vote_as_uk_pound_stumbles/?utm_source=fark&utm_medi




Note that the pound which was trading at 1.30 to the pound is now 1.16 euro to the pound.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:47 AM

Out of that £228B, what percentage are UK founded companies, and what percentage are overseas companies that could easily move their manufacturing bases/base of operations to another EU state if UK can no longer provide the convenience of being part of a single market.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

Bu using langauge like "the EU is basically toast" indicates that, like Farage, you consider the impact on the lives of over 650,000,000 people a big joke. More so, if you consider the reduction of overseas aid and development if we do not continue our contribution.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:05 AM

What impact on 650 million people SPB? What will happen to them? Will they all suddenly face starvation? economic ruin? Or will they all still continue to get on with their lives and continue to trade but ignore and forget about paying for a corrupt, inefficient and unaccountable bureaucracy and grandiose dreams about a United States of Europe governed by unelected political shysters aka the European Commission.

Foreign/Emergency Aid? If I were you SPB I'd take a good hard look at what the EU promises to deliver in terms of foreign and emergency aid and what it actually delivers - you will find that they are big on promises and very poor when it comes to following through on them.

The UK contributions to such aid dwarfs payments made by the rest of the EU States. To Syria alone the UK has paid more than the EU's top four donating nations - So please do not throw foreign aid into the argument without first checking your facts.

As to moving operations? Where to? What degree of trust do you have in Juncker and the EU Commission? The British Government cannot meddle with the Bank of England, the EU Commission theoretically is not supposed to meddle with the European Central Bank - but that hasn't stopped it from doing so has it? London is counted as being one of the world's must influential and powerful financial centres (Nothing whatsoever to do with being in the EU) because our laws, legal systems and independence inspire confidence and trust.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:39 AM

So Teribus, you seem quite happy to discuss possibilities of what scenarios of what may happen in the future but do not wish to comment on actualities that have already happened, for example The 10% hike in the cost of computers etc from Dell or the 10%+ fall in the value of the pound against the Euro in the last week or the fact that the pound is at a 31 year low against the dollar.

Strange.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

Teribus - all well and good...

But now try explaining to ordinary family folk, like my cousin - a grandmother holding down 2 exhausting minimum wage part time jobs,
struggling to keep her head above water..

Folk who don't have time or energy for pontificating on political and constitutional bureaucracy and theory,
how sudden [most probably long term ] hikes in the prices of household essentials
are necessary patriotic sacrifices for 'freedom'.....??????? 😣



There is the usual casual conservative lack of sympathy which we are all accustomed to,
then there is downright malevolent callous disregard of the sinister tory extreme right.....


As for Fararge's old cronies.. who's to say there aren't city speculators somehow gleefully profiteering vastly off brexit..???

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:26 AM

I was incorrect Teribus, you have mentioned the fall of the pound against the Euro.

It was in a nasty, unnecessary and callous jibe about the value of Jim's UK pension in Ireland.

Unfortunately a somewhat typical comment from you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:44 AM

LONDON — It was only a column in The Daily Mail, but in its way, it told you everything you need to know about politics in Britain these days.

It was written by Sarah Vine, who is married to Michael Gove, a leader of the anti-Europe "Brexit" campaign, and it appeared soon after Britain shocked itself (and the Goves) by voting to leave the European Union.

The referendum threw the country into turmoil, and no one, including Mr. Gove, had a coherent plan for what to do next. But that did not seem to bother Ms. Vine. Yes, she wrote, it is "an awesome responsibility that he — we — are now charged with implementing the instructions of 17 million people." But perhaps more urgently, she went on, the whole affair had messed up her social life and upset her and her husband's political plans.

Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM

How many computers do you buy a year Raggy? One, two dozen?

In my life I have bought four of them.

As far as the cost of living goes I have noticed no great changes on the staples that would threaten starvation pfr - but then again like Raggy maybe your cousin is a compulsive computer purchaser.

Ah yes I did have a bit of a chuckle at Jom's expense, further gilded by the fact that as my pension comes from abroad Jom's loss is my gain (At the moment about a 12.5% increase Raggy).

Currency fluctuations do not worry me, where we are now is somewhere where we have been before and no doubt will be somewhere again at some point in the future - swings and round-abouts, ups and downs - no requirement for undue alarmist wittering. When I first went to the USA Raggy £1 = $2.40 it may pain you to hear that in the intervening 50 years I did not starve I did not face ruin, none of us are going to suffer any suchlike in the coming couple of years - go tell your scare stories elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:33 PM

Teribus - than's for that.. I was feeling a bit nostalgic for brutal uncaring 80s thatcherism.... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:44 PM

"thank's"...

.. you've made my day...


.. icing on the cake would be an unguarded recording of a top brexit tory
declaring "fuck the proles.. let 'em starve for all I care..."😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:48 PM

pfr - I did not introduce the metric for destitution, poverty and an economy going to the dogs because the price of an "effin" Dell computer was going up by 10% - you Prat.

"Oh dear I'm destitute I can't afford to have a Smart 4k Ultra HD 55" LED TV in my downstairs loo, the Guvermint should be ashamed of themselves, after all it's my rights wots being abused - I'm too ashamed to invite me mates round - They should give me one.

Not at all interested in what you would like to hear to make your day, thing is you haven't heard it, nor will you.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:18 PM

Teribus - errrm... I never specifically mentioned Dell computers...???


But still.. more please, you're a terrific time capsule of the tories that evolution forgot...

We used to have a mean minded town councillor who talked a bit like you... ah.. those were the days..
She was always trying to close down any events or organizations
that didn't meet her strict approval...
Life was so simple and polarised into left v right.
Gave us young bright educated arts inclined students something to fight back against...

I'm glad we have this cordial opportunity to meet..
I normally avoid the types of threads you inhabit.....


Btw... as Mudcat is a primarily music forum, there's currently a possible motivation for you
to make your once or twice per annum excursion to threads above the line;

political & EU songs...??? 🙄..

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 02:21 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:16 AM

A sign of things to come.

Dell Compueter have increased their costs to retailer by 10% as from the 1st July. No doubt a sign if things to come.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/05/dell_confirms_price_rise_post_brexit_vote_as_uk_pound_stumbles/?utm_source=fark&utm_medi

It may be worth actually reading the linked article.

A spokeswoman for the Texan tech baron confirmed the changes:

"We carefully consider price moves for our customers and partners, and have worked diligently over the past several months to postpone any increases pending the outcome of the EU referendum."
"Our component costs are priced in US dollars," she added, "and unfortunately, the recent strengthening of the US dollar versus sterling and other currencies in the EMEA region, following the UK's decision to leave the European Union, will have a direct impact on the price we sell to our UK customers and partners."

So the headline 10% increase is a cumulative figure over several months. The cynical might think that Dell had delayed implementing price hikes until they had a suitable scapegoat.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:01 PM

that evolution forgot...

Oh, lord, don't bring EVOLUTION into this - you know what will happen....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:39 PM

So the three bastards who did the most lying to the British public, who, specifically, promised us falsely that immigration could be brought under control, have all buggered off. And don't pretend that Gove didn't know what he was doing. He's now hoping for a job under Theresa, and she'll probably be stupid enough to give him one. Had he not knifed Boris, he'd have fallen on his sword days ago, but, this way, it looks more like an honourable defeat. Which it never was. That's it with these Tories. Their main priority is not the interests of the country but to stab each other in the back at the first opportunity. Plus ça change.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 06:44 PM

"fuck the proles.. let 'em starve for all I care..."😜

Umm, if I'm not mistaken it was the proles who drove the leave vote was it not?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

Nope. Nobody leads the votes in this country. Everyone, from Prince Phil to the scruffiest tramp, has one vote and each vote carries equal weight. That's how it works. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM

That was supposed to be drives, not leads.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 06:30 AM

Still cannot read Teribus. I distinctly said it was a sign of things to come. So a laptop has gone up 10%, what next a Car perhaps, then food imports, which hit everyone rich or poor. Oil, gas, electric, petrol etc etc.

You often state various things are the cause of problems within our society. One of the biggest is the "Sod you Jack, I'm alright" mentality which you clearly demonstrate.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 07:41 AM

Oh dear Raggy, please point out where in the Remain campaigns literature did it state with utmost clarity that the price of everything was going to stay the same of be reduced.

So the price of a computer goes up - as pointed out by someone else, that may or may not have had something to do with the result of the referendum - bet the price is also going up on the continent too.

If the price of a Merc, Audi, BMW or a VW goes up too much to affect sales to the UK just sit back and hear the Germans scream.

But a couple of things we now do have a chance to do something about:

1) Immigration - we will have the say on who comes in and who does not - not some unaccountable bureaucrat in Brussels, or a foreign political leader wishing to grandstand. Our borders are easier to both control and close than the EU's.

2) VAT - Which does already affect everyone, rich and poor alike - we can either scrap it (which I think would be a bad idea) or adjust it as WE see fit - we will no longer be told from Brussels what is to be covered and what is to be exempt.

And Bobad was perfectly correct Shaw. What swung the vote for Brexit were the votes of traditional Labour voters the length and breadth of the country. The Tory Leadership election is proceeding according to their party's rules and once over they will have a leader who:

1) Will lead

2) Have the support of the elected Conservative Members of Parliament

How many pieces will the Labour Party be in by then Shaw? BBC news showed the Chamber of the House of Commons yesterday barely one single Labour member sitting on the opposition benches behind their "Leader".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM

"
Umm, if I'm not mistaken it was the proles who drove the leave vote was it not?"

bobad - for a starters Learning 101 in advanced ideology theory.. google "Hegemony" - ".. colluding in your own domination"...

That's what was basic concept when I was a first year undergrad well over 3 decades ago....

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:41 AM

David Cay Johnston's analysis of who drove the leave vote, why and what it means for the future:

What are sometimes referred to as "those people" spoke, but no one is listening to the real message.

The Daily Beast

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:44 AM

Rather like the middle class and poor folks in the U.S. who steadfastly vote Republicrud - the very people who put them in the economic toilet they compain about.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

last in ref to 08 Jul 16 - 08:01 AM

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:04 AM

It is clear to me now than Britain is a nation on edge.

The US is a nation on the edge of armed revolt vs. rebellion.

I urge you this is the time to step back from all this revulsion.

It is time to discuss how to step back.


































































.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

Unfortunately though Jom, there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into.
Totally invented Tory bollocks
There is no information as to how many people claiming dole who have never paid into it –this is part of the Tory myth, and it doesn't matter anyway
Unemployment 'benefit' is not a gift given to us on high – it is an insurance scheme we all pay into from when we start work in order to protect everybody from suffering if our Government fails to create the conditions whereby we can find work – the high unemployment figures are not because because people don't want to work but because there is no work to be had.
Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25.
Nobody is entitled to say that those unable to find work should not be paid (another example of your fascism)
Reality check for you Terrytoon
"1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life."
Quite right, but it is the job of elected governments to create circumstances in which I can find work within a reasonable distance from my home.
Tebbit's 'get on your bike' is a legacy of Thatcher's cutting the North of England adrift and creating two nations - Thatcher virtually admitted she was a fascist when she described Pinochete's murdering style of government her kind of democracy.
The question of becoming itinerant workers, which is what you extremists are proposing, is out of the question anyway – as general property prices and rents are largely governed by work availability, most people cannot afford to move to where the work is – what are you really suggesting – reopening the workhouse schemes - if not, what - mass starvation?.
If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose.
Back in the day, if I lost my job, I claimed my entitlement from the pool created by working people; nothing has fundamentally changed, and when it does, we will have a refugee crisis on our hands of people moving out of Britain to seek work – you braindeads have just closed the European door.

"2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life."
They have done – they pay into a compulsory insurance scheme in order to protect themselves from such events.

"3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population"
We are not talking about "individuals" we are discussing millions – go and count the unemployment figures, then add on the millions who are earning the national minimum wage, then add to that, those who are surviving on or below subsistence level
It's not as if there isn't money about – look at the rapidly accelerating gap between haves and have-nots – in Britain and throughout the world.

This latest referendum fiasco has benefitted nobody – there's an example of extreme bigotry and self-destructive stupidity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 10:00 AM

(that, not than)

As crazy as it sounds, you guys over there are more sane and temperate than us.

As if that was ever in doubt over the long haul with deliberate speed and the fullness of time including the provision that you may edit, abridge and extend your remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 04:35 AM

"2) Have the support of the elected Conservative Members of Parliament"

Well, no leader of any political party has the full support or every member of their PLP. Ever. This looks good typed in a Daily Mail editorial, but is spin and not the real world.

Party politics is dying on it's arse, and about time too. The EU vote has laid bare the deficiencies of the party system; the winners of Brexit have all done the damage and then buggered off, more than aware of that being implicated in the invoking of Article 50 and the practicalities of negotiating to leave the EU will mean their legacy will be little more than a steaming midden of pure excrement.

Meanwhile, the two prospective and future unelected PMs are both right-wing and both unpalatable leaders for a country. The idea everyone is going to unite behind the likes of Andrea Leadsome is laughable - why should we? She's a little-England tory who would never be in this position if it wasn't for the fact Aaron Banks has taken a shine to her and decided that as UKIP is dead in the water he should back another horse, especially one galloping to the right of the field. The fact he found one nearly as nasty as Farage in the tory ranks comes as no surprise, but the idea of this village-hall demagogue leading the nation through the choppy waters of Brexit is enough to make any same person despair, so it'll probably happen.

They'll pitch Leadsome as the 'people's rebellion' candidate despite the fact she's a liar and a bigot. She'll win because the tory party is basically an association of old white people hankering after the last days of empire, and then she won't call an election until 2020 and will govern undemocratically and without mandate (didn't work out so well last time, did it?).

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:00 AM


They'll pitch Leadsome as the 'people's rebellion' candidate despite the fact she's a liar and a bigot. She'll win because the tory party is basically an association of old white people hankering after the last days of empire, and then she won't call an election until 2020 and will govern undemocratically and without mandate (didn't work out so well last time, did it?).

If that's all that happens if Leadsome is elected, I will count myself lucky. Given her blog posts from before the referendum was announced, we could find a significant rise in anti-gay attacks, just as we have against 'immigrants' (I know someone personally who was verbally assaulted for speaking French to her child), legislation favouring official marriage over heterosexual partnerships, bringing Christianity more to the fore in government (cf the US) and who know what else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

Let's rip this clichéd little exercise in leftist rhetoric apart shall we:

1: There are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits that they themselves have never, ever paid anything into.

Jom says that this is - "Totally invented Tory bollocks"

Personally I would like to see the figures that supports Jom's contention that everybody in the UK currently drawing benefits has actually contributed towards them.

Jom's take on things is that if you have the choice to either take a job or stay on benefits and the latter matches earning wages then it is perfectly acceptable to pass up on job experience and opt to remain idle. I say that it is not, that is not what the Welfare State was set up to provide, it was designed and intended to be a safety net not a life style choice.

2: "There is no information as to how many people claiming dole who have never paid into it –this is part of the Tory myth, and it doesn't matter anyway"

Of course there is information available that will tell you how many people are claiming dole who have never been in employment and who have never paid into the system - Simple matter of tracking National Insurance Numbers, contributions and compare that to benefits paid Jom.

Of course it matters, if you cannot see why, then you are a greater fool than even I take you for.

3: "Unemployment 'benefit' is not a gift given to us on high"

?? Should that not be "....given to us from those on high"??

" – it is an insurance scheme we all pay into from when we start work in order to protect everybody from suffering if our Government fails to create the conditions whereby we can find work"

Correction Jom - "it is an insurance scheme that all those of us who work pay into" - unfortunately too many people who have never worked a day in their lives use this insurance scheme as a dossers charter. Since Tony Blair left officer the country has been run 100% by professional politicians who to quote Nigel Farage - "Have never done an honest days work in their lives" - going to uni and then going straight into Conservative or Labour Central Office doesn't count – Tell me Jom just how precisely are these experts in how trade, industry and commerce work even going to recognise what conditions are required to create jobs - they wouldn't know them if they jumped up and bit them on the arse.

"the high unemployment figures are not because because people don't want to work but because there is no work to be had."

Bullshit Jom, the work is there, the lazy and indolent native population just isn't prepared to do it. The migrant workers who have flocked to this country are not all on the dole, they found work, and proved themselves to be damned good at it. Unemployment in the UK is running at half the level it is in the EU.

As a prospective employer I look at two candidates for one position. One has been sat on the dole for the last five years and the other has turned his hand to and taken on any job no matter how menial or lowly paid he could find over the same time frame - I know which one I am going to employ - the one that knows what work is. That Jom is common sense and should be obvious to anybody.

4: "Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25.
Nobody is entitled to say that those unable to find work should not be paid (another example of your fascism)"

At one point Jom - WOW - Is it fun living in your time warp Jom? You've been given the current unemployment percentages for the UK and for the EU you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh? In Spain, Italy and Greece (ALL EU Eurozone countries) they'd take your bloody hand off if you offered them a way to guarantee 25% unemployment at the moment.

On points Jom, you have completely missed the point that was being made. It has nothing whatsoever to do with not paying benefits to those unable to find work, but has everything to do with not paying benefits to those who won't find work - they are robbing resources from people who actually need it.

Now back to the reality check I gave you Jom:

1: The world, nor anybody in it owes you a job on your doorstep for one week let alone for life."

Quite right says Jom but goes on to say, "but it is the job of elected governments to create circumstances in which I can find work within a reasonable distance from my home" - hate to point this out to you Jom but the Government you speak of is part and parcel of the world, nor anybody in it. Nobody owes you a job or a living that is YOUR personal responsibility (A word hated by you and the likes of you - Aw it's always somebody else's fault).

You talk as though there is no work, odd then that the millions who have come to this country have seemed to find it. When you moved from Liverpool to London, did you starve Jom? If you can move to find work why can't anybody else? I did and worked quite happily all over the world while maintaining a family and home in the UK, and believe me I was by no means the exception.

"If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose.

If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??

Back in the day, if I lost my job, I claimed my entitlement from THE POOL CREATED BY WORKING PEOPLE; nothing has fundamentally changed {Oh yes it bloody well has}, and when it does, we will have a refugee crisis on our hands of people moving out of Britain to seek work – you braindeads have just closed the European door. - Just how have we closed the door Jom? Do you know the details of whatever deal has yet to be negotiated? No you don't What about the door to the world? Has that been closed as well?

2: The individual is responsible for preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life.

They have done – they pay into a compulsory insurance scheme in order to protect themselves from such events.

Missed the point again Jom, and they will only have paid into this compulsory insurance scheme IF THEY HAVE BEEN IN PAID EMPLOYMENT. Now what do you think I meant when I mentioned - "preparing themselves and making decisions to increase their chances and opportunities in life." - education, looking at and determining best trades and training to optimise job prospects then working towards it by applying themselves.

3: The Government is responsible for running the country for the continuing greater good of the entire population

"We are not talking about "individuals" we are discussing millions" – But Jom you are talking "individuals" your little bleat was all about what you see as the Government's responsibility to create the conditions so that you can have a job for life on your doorstep - How the F**k does the Government know what YOU want to do, or indeed where you want to live. Not their job at all, all that part of life is down to you - the individual, supported and advised by friends and family, and nobody else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:37 AM

I was going to reply, but I have better things to do today - off to Acton Carnival, so I will let you sit on your Laissez-Faire high-horse in peace for the rest of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM

"If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose."

"If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"

Well Teribus, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way. The Tories got into power in 1979 via a "Labour isn't working" poster (chillingly reminiscent of Farage's disgraceful racist poster, eh?), yet unemployment shot up almost immediately and for the next 18 years of Tory rule the level never got anywhere near down to the level they inherited from Labour. Unemployment was lower under Blair than the Tories ever achieved, and once they got back into power it shot up once again. The Tories are the true party of unemployment in this country, in spite of their cheating efforts to massage the figures. Thatcher did it by putting perfectly fit people in their millions on incapacity benefit and Cameron does it by pretending that a million on zero-hours contracts, millions more who are now counted as "self-employed" (a way of employers avoiding paying for their stamps), hundreds of thousands on bogus "apprenticeships" that involve young people making the tea and sweeping the floors on half the minimum wage, and hundreds of thousands under-employed on part-time and seasonal work. Oh, and if you make it next to impossible to claim JSA, my word, doesn't the claimant count look so good! You may like kidding yourself but you can't kid us. The proof? In spite of Tory crowing about "more people in work than ever" (see above litany), productivity in this country is bumping along the bottom and has been for years. Let's see you explaining that one away.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

(that, not than)

As crazy as it sounds, you guys over there are more sane and temperate than us Amurikanz. Relatively speaking that is.

As if that was ever in doubt over the long haul with deliberate speed
and the fullness of time including the provision that you may edit,
abridge and extend your remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:11 AM

"Personally I would like to see the figures that supports Jom's contention that everybody in the UK currently drawing benefits has actually contributed towards them."
Did I say this - no - of course I didn't - you made that up
I've asked you to provide evidence that there are " there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits" - who says so, other than you.
I make no contention - you invented that.
I say that forcing people to take jobs that have no inclination for is a sign that the system we live under is failing - it is a waste of human resources to force people with skills and inclinations in certain types of work to stack shelves in Tescos.
Forcing people into such decisions under the threat of starving them is basically little different than slave labour without the chains.
"Of course there is information available that will tell you how many people are claiming dole"
Then provide it - you always make these sweeping claims and refuse to back them up with facts.
"given to us from those on high"??"
Of couse it should - typos again when you have nothing else.
"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"
Wow - where id that come from
How on earth is closing the European door on those prepared to search for work going to change things in any way - there is a severe shortage of jobs in Britain, thanks to the Tory destruction of our industries - you refuse to even respond to the damage done by leaving Europe, let alone explain it.
"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"
Been ther, done that - it is the responsibility of the Government of the day to create the conditions in which people can find their own work - that is their purpose - creating a society under which we can all use our skills and abilities and earn out own livings.
Unemployment benefit is what we paid for in order to safeguard the wellbeing of those unable to.
Unless you can provide employment for the maximum number of people, you can never sort out those who can't work from those who won't.
That is what makes your claims so crass.
I ask again - alternatives - workhouse - starvation for thse who can't find work or what.
Stop your Tory bullshit and provide some facts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

teribus - shame really... if you could just be content to harness your articulacy, knowledge, skills and experience
to positively persuade 'us' to better understand the bureaucratic complexity of EU;
areas where 'we' might benefit from reconsidering, re-evaluating, and modifying 'our' understanding of very difficult, highly specialised legalities & economics..

Then you would be a genuine asset to mudcat, an educator and facilitator;
and potentially win over some of us more towards your position on certain issues...????


As it is, your vile sneering attitude merely renders you as a contemptible old tory **** cartoon caricature..

But if that is just simply the way you are, then please.. why not keep it up..
At least this way you are good for your hilarity value...

Ben Elton and Dickens combined might have managed to create such a rotter of a pantomime / sit-com heartless villain... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:13 PM

"you would gladly see us shackled to. 25% unemployment eh"

A new all time low even for Jim Carroll.

Here is where he got that supposed quote from (I quote the section of my post {three separate sentences} he took it from):

"You've been given the current unemployment percentages for the UK and for the EU you would gladly see us shackled to.

25% unemployment eh?

In Spain, Italy and Greece (ALL EU Eurozone countries) they'd take your bloody hand off if you offered them a way to guarantee 25% unemployment at the moment."

Now I have opened those three sentences out, just in case Jom doesn't know what a sentence is and to let everyone see the point I was making and the method, lack of logic and warped thinking behind Carroll's invention (AKA Jim Carroll Made-Up-Shit) of attempting to say that he said he was happy to see 25% unemployment.

Oh just in case anybody is in any doubt unemployment in the UK is half what it is generally throughout the EU.

Steve Shaw - 09 Jul 16 - 06:40 AM

Well Shaw, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way, glossing over the utterly dire state of the nation and it's finances left behind by the Labour Party and the Trades Union bosses in 1979, and again in 2010 by "nu-labor's" Blair and Brown after 13 years in office. Of course it takes time to reverse the rot caused by poor governance - but it does not alter the fact that in both instances the incoming Governments did address the issues and turned things around. And yes they did it by taking painful, unpopular and hard decisions - that is what is known as leadership taking the necessary steps to put things right - you seem to think leadership consists of supporting daft populist ideology and "kicking-the-can" down the road for later generations to ultimately pick up the bill for your folly.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"A new all time low even for Jim Carroll."
Then ****** answer it.
I was an electrician not a shelf-stacker
If I am forced to choose between between stacking shelves, leaving home and family or starving, the society we live under has ceased to function.
"25% unemployment eh?"
That was exactly the figure in the area I left to work in London - what's your point?
The work was then all centred around the South East then, now it is considerably less, but that is only because workers are now forced to take jobs that are unsuited to, do not meet their financial needs - percentages.
WE are not "workers" - we are human beings who have certain skills, aptitudes and interests.
I was trained for five years as an electrician and worked at that trade for over half a century - any society that cannot cater for skilled workers and forces them to take menial jobs at pittances is order to stay alive is one fucked up society.   
Are you really suggesting that %25 in one of the richest economies in the Western world is acceptable?
You must be fucking mad!
Britain once led the world in manufacture - gone thanks to you scumbags, who put profit before the interests of the people,
Our greatest export now is MONEY - FINANCE!!
One of the fastest rising slogans here in Ireland now is "people before profit" - about time those in Britain got a grip of that idea
As I said, it's not as if there was no wealth to be had - but it's in the hands of those who produce sweet fuck all.
POVERTY GAP
Once you start comparing the British economy with that of rural, poverty stricken, tourist-dependent Greece, you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel - is that the level yo think Thatcherism has dragged us to?
I ask again
alternatives - workhouse - starvation for those who can't find work or what.
and again ; I've asked you to provide evidence that there are " there are too many turning down jobs to stay on benefits" - who says so, other than you.
You are great at demanding answers but are to tally incapable of giving them yourself.
Feckin' fascist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:23 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM
I was an electrician not a shelf-stacker
If I am forced to choose between between (sic) stacking shelves, leaving home and family or starving, the society we live under has ceased to function.

Of course, no-one wants to end up stacking shelves. it is demeaning, it is a job for those beyond contempt.

Alternately, it is a job that needs to be done. It is paid employment.

Society has not "ceased to function" just because it is necessary that someone does this work.

But if Jim believes it is below his station, then he believes there are jobs which must be done, but which he would not demean himself to do.

Clearly Jim does not want to be considered as one of the workers.

I also have problems with the phrase "the society we live under". we are all part of "society" it is not over, or above us. We are part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

For a bit of historical context on this Who Deserves to be English discussion, I recommend "Shakespeare and the Jews," by James Shapiro. Many of the arguments here closely mirror the arguments that surrounded the "Jew bill" [chapter 7] of 1753, which takes up the final chapter of the book. The tumult, jingoism and the results were similar. I find it hard to accept that we have not progressed in almost 3 centuries.

By the way, if you go to page 279 of the same book you will find that whether or not The kingdom was united by act of Parliament it was treated de jure as though it was. On the question of unification, note 70 reads "The best known example of this problem in early modern England was the 1609 case of Calvin, a young boy born in Scotland whose right to benefit from freehold tenements in London was contested on the grounds that he was an alien. Luckily for Calvin, legal experts decided that he was born after King James had come to the English throne and thus was technically English and therefore eligible to hold property in England. His case gives some inkling of how disputed the legal status of aliens was at this time." [Notes re: chapter 6, "Race, Nation or Alien]

This also suggests that it may be harder to do an actual separation than it appears at first glance.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

Exxept when stacking shelves is not a valued by those who profit from the labour, but see that as a penance for those who are excluded from other job opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

" but which he would not demean himself to do"
No I do not, but as a tradesman in an essential trade I feel that my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and I believe that of every other individual in Britain with training and skills.
If the job is essential, then its importance needs to be reflected in the remuneration to those doing it.
Lip-service Nigel, and you know it.
"Clearly Jim does not want to be considered as one of the workers."
No - I said before - I am not a "worker" I am a human being who worked for a living" - but as a human being, I have other things that make up my humanity - as does every other human being on the planet - nobody should ever be defined by what they do for a living, but by the sum part of what makes them what they are.
You people wriggle around all these points without ever addressing them.
"we are all part of "society"
No we are not - the type of 'democracy' we have makes us adjuncts, not parts.
Let's try you on the points Teribus refuses to respond to - this time, without the insults, if you think you can make the effort.
If people can't find work, alternatives, what should happen to them - workhouse - starvation for those who can't find work or what?
It's a classic Tory claim and you appear to be a fine example of Toryism.
Try another one that Teribus refuses to respond to:
If we must all leave our families and get on our bikes, and if the accommodation in the areas of work are out of our reach, where do we live, hostels, tents, sleep on park benches.... where.
You and your feckin' "get on your bikes"
You're supposed to be a Christian, aren't you - how do you square your predatory Toryism with your Christianity - you're nothing like the Christians I grew up surrounded by - I've never encountered such inhumanity as I see in the so-called 'Christians' on this site.
Not too inarticulate for you, I hope - I did my best for you!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:09 PM

Jim Carroll - 08 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

"Within my lifetime in the North of England that figure exceeded %25."

Jim Carroll - 09 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"25% unemployment eh?"
That was exactly the figure in the area I left to work in London

Well well Jom, never knew that London was in the North of England.

You didn't say Jom but when you left Liverpool and went South to work in London, did you starve? Did you have to live on the streets?

Any idea what an electrician charges for a call out these days Jom? Any idea how difficult they are to get hold of?

"as a tradesman in an essential trade I feel that my efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and I believe that of every other individual in Britain with training and skills."

So rather than do an honest days work you would by choice sponge off the working population.

Unfortunately Jom there is a large number of those on the dole who are youngsters who did not bother about thinking of their futures, threw away the opportunities available to them while in full time education, who are barely literate or numerate and have no training or skills apart from their amazing ability to wangle benefits from our welfare system.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:20 PM

Well Shaw, as ever you don't let the facts stand in your way, glossing over the utterly dire state of the nation and it's finances left behind by the Labour Party and the Trades Union bosses in 1979, and again in 2010 by "nu-labor's" Blair and Brown after 13 years in office. Of course it takes time to rheverse the rot caused by poor governance - but it does not alter the fact that in both instances the incoming Governments did address the issues and turned things around. And yes they did it by taking painful, unpopular and hard decisions - that is what is known as leadership taking the necessary steps to put things right - you seem to think leadership consists of supporting daft populist ideology and "kicking-the-can" down the road for later generations to ultimately pick up the bill for your folly.

I confronted you with your comment about Labour and unemployment. That's all. Not for one second have I pretended that the Labour administration up to 1979 was good. But you were inaccurate in your remarks and I've provided you with the evidence (well, it's easy enough to look up at any rate, and impossible to contradict) that unemployment under Tory administrations since 1979 has almost always been worse than under Labour, contrary to your rude attack on Jim's comments. It's all checkable online, so why don't you do it before posting?   In fact, the Tory unemployment figures are even worse than the headline rate when you take into account the way the Tories, from Thatcher right up to Cameron, have dishonestly massaged the figures, as I explained in my last post. My challenge to you remains: if the Tories are so good at getting people into work, then why is productivity in this country obstinately flatlining, and has been for all the years the Tories have been in power since 2010? Shall I save you the bother? It's because all those millions of jobs created are not the kinds of jobs that you or I have been used to seeing for decades. And I don't mean jobs for life, a concept I dislike severely. I mean totally insecure jobs, part-time jobs, temporary jobs, seasonal jobs, zero-hours jobs, bogus apprenticeships that teach young people nothing, millions of extra "self-employed" jobs that would have made respectable self-employed people, people with real skills and at least some business acumen, in your time and mine laugh their socks off. You're being conned. Some of us, unlike you, can see through the whole charade.

By the way, as you're being incredibly rude in calling me by my surname and calling Jim "Jom," for reasons best known to yourself, I've decided to call you "Tucbale" instead of Teribus from now on. It stands for "Troglodytical Unreconstructed Colonel Blimp-like Antediluvian Little Englander." You OK with that, Tucbale, or should I just call you Woodcock?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM

Er, Nigel, I think you have severely misread Jim's sentiments. His comments were about the waste of resources in not using people's talents to the full. We invest a great deal (though nowhere near enough,which is why we'll never get immigration down) in training people to have the high-level skills needed in industry, in the NHS and in education. What a waste of that investment it is if these highly-trained people are stacking shelves in Tesco, and there is nothing snobbish in saying that. Dunno Jim's history, but in my time I've stacked shelves in Victor Value and Tesco as well as scrubbing the floors and scraping the maggot-infested bonemeal out of the bottoms of the meat-cutting machines, mowed council housing estates which involved inhaling the dust from fortnight-old dog turds that you hadn't spotted in time, weeded flower beds in the pissing rain with my bare hands and scrubbed clay flower pots for eight hours at a time with no hand protection. Whilst I always knew I wasn't going to be doing it forever, it taught me that human beings who go to work to keep their families housed and fed need and deserve a certain level of respect and dignity, no matter how menial their work. As a matter of fact, the lowest-paid workers doing the worst jobs, such as wiping old people's bottoms whilst on zero-hours contracts, happen to be a thousand times more valuable to this country than any bloody hedge fund manager or overpaid chief executive who will draw his bonus no matter how badly his company performs. Some of us kept our eyes open in our formative days, Nigel.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 03:48 AM

What comment about Labour and unemployment? Only comparison I have drawn Jom's attention to was between the UK (5%) and the EU (10.4%).

"why is productivity in this country obstinately flatlining, and has been for all the years the Tories have been in power since 2010?"

If I were you I'd check that bit about productivity constantly flatlining, particularly in manufacturing - you'd be in for one hell of a surprise. The Tories by the way have only been in power since 2015 before then they were part of a Coalition Government (I say that in deference to your constant demands for accuracy from others, even although I know it goes against your "Socialist" belief that there must be "One law for the Goose and another for the Gander")

According to the Office for National Statistics - "In the United Kingdom, Productivity is the real value of output produced by a unit of labour during a certain time. This page provides the latest reported value for - United Kingdom Productivity - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and long-term prediction, economic calendar, survey consensus and news. United Kingdom Productivity - actual data, historical chart and calendar of releases - was last updated on July of 2016."

The figures reported quarterly presented as Index Points for the period 1971 to 2016 are as follows:

Actual/Current = 101.50
Previous = 101.00
Highest = 102.20
Lowest = 44.60

The trend since 2013 has been upward, which might explain a couple of things such as the UK's being the best performing economy of the worlds developed nations, certainly far better performing than that of the EU.


By the bye Jom was a name Jim Carroll called himself in one of his own posts, if it's OK for him, it's fine by me. No need for you to be offended on his behalf. Best check before making up Acronyms and using them. Your latest is the Company (Bianchi) registered trade name for a waistband holster.

As for your post - Steve Shaw - 09 Jul 16 - 07:50 PM - Put that to music and you'd have a song that would top the "Country & Western" charts in next to no time.

"bloody hedge fund managers" - Hedge funds are practically only used by institutional investors, they are not available to the general public. An example from past times, the National Union Of Mineworkers was one of the largest institutional investors in the UK, it was by it's investments that NUM Pensions could be paid. A number of other large organisations and companies did the same with their pension funds - and guess what Mr Shaw - in general they worked and worked very effectively, lots of people up and down the country are enjoying a happy and secure retirement because of it.

The "overpaid chief executive" is normally paid what was agreed when he took on the job, he is normally paid his bonus, again previously agreed, based upon HIS performance, not that of the company. An example a firm, lets say a bank, is losing £345 million a year and brings in a new CEO in order to stop the rot, the following year the bank is now only losing £150 million. Has the new CEO brought about an improvement? Has he reversed the trend and put things on the right track - I'd say yes, you would probably disagree - but if any company hired any worker and promised him x amount in wages plus y amount as a bonus based on HIS performance, then you'd be the first to squeal if he wasn't paid it having performed what was agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 04:13 AM

"Well well Jom, never knew that London was in the North of England."
Who said it was - have you added dyslexia to your other talents?
"did you starve? Did you have to live on the streets?"
Did you post this when you got back from the pub last night - you're getting more and more inarticulate?
I left the North of England to find work - I went to London and found work as it was one of the few places in Britain where work was fairly readily available and rented accommodation was reasonably affordable - I found work and somewhere to live.
I worked in London for thirty odd years without a break.
Had I been unable to find work I would not have been "sponging" from anybody had I had to rely on benefiting from the insurance I had paid into throughout my earlier life - drawing unemployment benefit benefit is not "sponging" it is a paid-for right - you Tory moron, it's what I paid my stamp for.
Nowadays, thaanks to the predatory nature of Toryism, accommodation where work is readily available, is affordable, and reasonably-paid and inspiring work is virtually non-existent, again, thanks to the predatory Toryism that has systematically destroyed our industries and has turned places to live into investments.
Blaming youngsters for not "thinking about their futures" is ****** typical of you right-wing morons - what choice or what future are today's youngsters offered in Britain - SFA.
No apprenticeships, no industries to work in, a catering trade that is known for its poor pay and inhospitable hours - or menial, dead-end jobs - if you are lucky, otherwise, an now limited period on the dole.
The now astronomical cost of higher education puts that out of reach of the average working-class family - your Tory alternative =- blame the victim - again.
You bigoted idiots have just slammed the European door shut on our kids in your desire to create a fortress little England.
At least, here in Ireland, the failures of our politicians can be overcome by kids by them working in France, or Germany or wherever... I've met a dozen or so of them over the last week who have come back for the Clancy Summer School, and will be returning to reasonably rewarding jobs all over Europe this morning.
You clowns have made that impossible fro British kids.
I can remember going into bars when we used to use MacColl's holiday home in the borders of Scotland, and seeing beer mats reading "Can't get work? Join the Army" - some vocation eh, training our youth to risk their lives killing the innocent victims of the Blair/Bush wars?
Where is the proof of any of your claims - once again you are attempting to bully and bluster though your own, extremist and outdated opinions?
Did I write that slowly enough for you to understand = if not, try an Underberg - works wonders for a hangover!
If you intend continuing this farrago, I suggest dipping your head in cold water, then try a heavy breakfast.
Sober up before you write in future, then maybe you can answer the questions.
Workhouse - starve or what?
Hostels, sleep in the park or where?
You Tebbitites would return British working people into friggin' itinerant nomads with no homes or rights to raise families if you were let.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM

I have come to the conclusion that it is pointless to try and discuss issues in a reasoned manner with Teribus. He has his point of view which I believe he learnt from his "masters" (I really do think that is his mindset)

Anyone showing the smallest degree of compassion for his fellow human being he considers weak and ineffectual.

It is my honest belief that he would have functioned extremely well in places like Treblinka, Chelmno or Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I say this because over the past few weeks his posts have become more and more frenzied, virulent and intemperate.

I would suggest that we leave him to putrify in his own deluded midden.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:44 AM

Good heavens Jom it must have taken you at least half-an-hour to wipe down and dry out the screen and keyboard after that spittle-flecked tirade of yours.

How on earth can you expend so many words to say precisely S.F.A. - highly inaccurate S.F.A. at that?

By the way would actually like me to point out precisely how many times you contradict yourself and undermine the very points you are trying to make? Naw on second thoughts best not to - it would spoil the fun.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:56 AM

"highly inaccurate "
So inaccurate you are able to refute them and answer all the questions with one mighty bound - not!!!
Feckin eejit!
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 06:10 AM

This comment, Tucbale. It seems that your short-term memory is failing you.

JIM: "If a government cannot create conditions in which workers can find work, is it no longer fit for purpose."

YOU: "If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:48 PM

And Labour Governments have created the conditions which enabled workers to find work how?

Wilson and Callaghan didn't do too well.

Blair and Brown did whatever they did off the financial base the country inherited from the Thatcher/Major Governments. What was that note left for the incoming Treasury Secretary (Liberal Democrat David Laws) in the wake of the 2010 election by the departing Labour Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne - There's no money left - wasn't it?

Under Brown's stewardship the country was headed for utter ruin - Brown & Labour's solution borrow more. That is what got them run out of office in 2010. The coalition did a good enough job under difficult circumstances to prevent Labour winning the election in 2015.

In Scotland and in the North Labour MPs and Labour controlled councils have returned time, after time, after time. What good has it done - Bugger All. Hence:

"If that is what you truly believe then WTF have you been doing supporting and for all I know voting Labour for so long??"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:50 AM

Gonna deal with my "inaccuracies" Teribus - no?
Thought not
Sprinting off into the sunset when asked to justify your arguments seems an on-going feature of your technique
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 04:52 AM

Naw too much fun just letting you contradict yourself Jom.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

"Naw too much fun just letting you contradict yourself Jom."
Which are? (rhetorical question for which I will receive no answer)
Nah, much better to do a runner again, as you always doi when you dig yourself into the klarts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM

"What was that note left for the incoming Treasury Secretary (Liberal Democrat David Laws) in the wake of the 2010 election by the departing Labour Treasury Secretary Liam Byrne - There's no money left - wasn't it?"

Note left by Tory Reginald Maudling to his Labour successor James Callaghan in 1964: "Good luck, old cock ... Sorry to leave it in such a mess." - wonder what note Osborne will be leaving?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 12:08 PM

Well Jom how about you banging on about how wrong those are who advocate "getting on their bikes" in order to find work yet praising to the high heavens those who do stating how proud you are of them? I'd say that that is a contradiction.

How about you saying how impossible it is to move from the North to the South East as the cost of accommodation is so high - yet thousands have done it - including yourself. That is a contradiction.

You say that you left the North because unemployment reached 25%, then say it was down in London you experienced unemployment of 25% which one was it? Another contradiction.

Political turmoil eh? Cameron declared his intention to resign as leader of the Conservative Party on the 24th June, 2016 they now reckon by 13th July 2016 the new leader will take over. In roughly the same timespan the Labour Party cannot get its act together to even be able to state with any certainty what names will appear on the ballot paper.

SPB-Cooperator, you wonder what note Osborne will be leaving? Well it certainly will not be - There's no money left,/I> - will it?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:03 PM

"praising to the high heavens those who do stating how proud you are of them?"
There's nothing wrong with widening your horizons if that's what you want to or are able to do - that's not where you people stand - you are forcing people to do so by describing those who don't "scroungers".
You continue to ignore requests to square the circle by telling us where these people who are out of work are going to live when they move to where the work is.
"then say it was down in London you experienced unemployment of 25%"
Where did I say it was %25 in London - of course it ******** wasn't - it would have been pointless to look for work where there wasn't any ---- your dyslexia seems to have kicked in again.
Even forty-odd years ago London was the only place in Britain where you could find work with relative ease and even then it took me three weeks of trudging the streets to do - the only period of my life I was out of work and "sponging from my fellow workers" (if you don't count the months I spent looking for work in Liverpool when I left school.
My experience of moving was when was single, when I had no immediate commitments and before Maggie turned homes into commodities when it pas possible to rent somewhere to stop at affordable prices - long gone.
You are inventing contradictions to justify your having claimed they exist, yet you have yet to provide one - no contradictions anywhere.
You have stated that those who put their families first are betraying Britain - you are not only advocating an itinerant work-force but your disgusting suggestion undermines the whole concept of the family.
"they now reckon by 13th July 2016 the new leader will take over"
I have not time for Cameron, but a racist vote is the worst reason in the world for a Government to change its leadership in mid-stream - that is disturbingly undemocratic by anyone's standards.
Not only is the country divided, sharply divided, but the political parties are also divided - what's happening in Labour is little more than a right-wing coup.
One of the things being discussed in Northern Ireland (of all places) is May's declaration that she will withdraw from Britain's commitment to Human Rights - this was even before the referendum.
Now - where is your itinerant work-force going to live and what do you propose should happen to these "spongers" who can't find work?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

Jim, Allow me to answer your last question to Teribus. He's probably started a cottage industry making bricks ..............






.............. for the gas ovens.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:31 PM

Nice one Cyril!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM

Do we really need shite like this?

Jim.... " a racist vote is the worst reason in the world for a Government to change its leadership in mid-stream"

Raggytash....."He's probably started a cottage industry making bricks .....   for the gas ovens"


Jim do you really think everyone who voted to leave the EU is a racist?    If so you have lost your grip on reality! If not you are a disgrace.

Raggytash.....if that was supposed to be a joke, it was in very poor taste, but I don't believe it was a joke, more like sheer vindictiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

"Jim do you really think everyone who voted to leave the EU is a racist? "
The ampaign was run on a racist basis - it made neither economic or political sense - it was sold on the basis of getting reid of immigrants.
In the week following the referendum Race hate crimes increased by %400 - what else was it about.
A couple of years ago a survey suggested that one third of those questions held and had openly expressed racist views.
You work it out - or perhaps you are the wrong person to do that.
Your own views are right wing, racist and homophobic in the extreme
You, as all your other fellow Brexists have refused to acknowledge the damage this appalling decision has done - you in fact were the foirst to the top of the dunghill to crow about your great victory - which apparently includes the potential break-up of the UK and the closing of a major source of employment for British workers
Well done, the ***** lot of you.
You will respond to none of this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM

As you well know Jim, the vote concerned the control of numbers of immigrants entering the UK not "getting rid of immigrants", whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean.
The ethnicity of these immigrants is incidental.

You are both demented and a disgrace....congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:19 PM

If you wish to discuss homosexual health rates, I refer to your charges of homophobia, open a new thread and any excuse you have for an argument will be demolished in the same manner as you have been dealt with here by Mr T.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

No, akenaton, the vote concerned the CONTROL OF EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK. The numbers of NON-EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, which are not affected by any EU free-movement rules, exceed the numbers of EU immigrants, yet this government have "failed to control" that immigration just as much as they have "failed to control" EU immigration allegedly, according to their excuse, due to EU rules. Why don't you get real and address the facts just for once. And here's a prediction: EU immigration will not be reduced by force within the next decade. Supply and demand may be a different matter, as ever. The reason is so bleedin' obvious that even you have mentioned it ad nauseam, though always in a terrible context in your case. We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do. Without immigrant nurses, for example, the NHS would collapse. Do try to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 08:47 PM

"As you well know Jim, the vote concerned the control of numbers of immigrants entering the UK not "getting rid of immigrants","
Fist step only and you know it- within a day your supporters were stopping complete strangers in the street and asking them when they were going back to where they came from.
The %400 percent rise in race hate crimes (which you choose not to comment on, significantly) is an indication of what it was about.
"You are both demented and a disgrace.."
You people are the ones who wish to send back and prevent from coming to Britain, refugees fleeing from wars and social conditions we have helped to instigate - that's what I call, demented and a disgrace, as is your silence on the racism that is already occurring, or the support for forcing immigrants to wear armbands or have their from doors painted red in order to single them out for racist attacks...... and every other squalid racist action you have supported.
Makes being called "demented and a disgrace" a pleasure - it confirms that we are at opposite ends of the human condition.
"If you wish to discuss homosexual health rates,"
No I don't, only to add that anybody who vilifies and makes people with any form of health problems pariahs, as you persistently have, a real sicko.
The world has long moved on - society as a whole no longer regards homosexuality as a sickness (except in the most extreme and intolerant parts of the planet) - you are an anachronism.   
Bring pack chemical castration, eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM

I think you have illustrated my last posts perfectly Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:52 AM

Then answer the points Ake.
Simple question
Since you have consistently presented homosexuals as disease-carrying perverts, what do you propose should be done to protect society from them?
Can't be too hard to answer, since you have obviously given the matter a great deal of thought judging by the efforts you have put into maligning them, though I have to say I expect a response to this from you as much as I expect a response from Teribus on his out-of-work "scroungers" and his homeless itinerant job-seekers.
Wait-ing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM

Guardian,
"Last night at Pulse, an LGBT nightclub in Orlando, Florida, 50 of our LGBT brothers and sisters were taken from us.

Today, like so many others in my community, I am overcome with a sense of helplessness. I am overcome with the urge to do something, anything, to help the victims and their families. Many in Orlando feel a similar urge. People are lining up to give blood in the wake of the massacre.

But gay and bisexual men who want to give today are encountering an obstacle: the FDA requires a year of celibacy before men who have sex with men can donate blood.

These new rules were put into practice in late 2015. "

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:22 AM

Steve Shaw - 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

No, akenaton, the vote concerned the CONTROL OF EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK. The numbers of NON-EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, which are not affected by any EU free-movement rules, exceed the numbers of EU immigrants, yet this government have "failed to control" that immigration just as much as they have "failed to control" EU immigration allegedly, according to their excuse, due to EU rules.

Ah Non-EU immigrants, economic refugees and asylum seekers become what when they arrive in the EU and are registered? According to "the rules" asylum seekers are supposed to stay in the first safe haven they find, but that is not what happens. Angela Merkel opened the German borders stating that all were welcome without having the foggiest clue of the magnitude of the problem she was creating. The two "richest" countries in the EU are Germany and the United Kingdom so where the hell do you think "Non-EU immigrants" would head for? If the UK is part of the EU and has to allow free uncontrolled movement then there is no way you can recover control of the numbers coming in. With the UK out of the EU the fact that the Non-EU immigrants manage by whatever means make it into the EU means that the gain no automatic right of entry into the EU, they also have the Channel to cross and if they cross once they land they can be turned round and deported immediately - the case for being an asylum seeker fleeing from Europe cannot be supported (There are exceptions of course - Julian Assange - who is actually fleeing a criminal charge)


EU immigration will not be reduced by force within the next decade.

Really? So you are saying that by being out of the EU it will, at some time in the future, be reduced - In that case good because it will never stop if we remain in the EU.

"Supply and demand may be a different matter, as ever. The reason is so bleedin' obvious that even you have mentioned it ad nauseam, though always in a terrible context in your case. We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do. Without immigrant nurses, for example, the NHS would collapse. Do try to focus."

Very pleased to see that you brought up the NHS. Anytime any leftist does that you know they are losing the argument, they invoke it as the "sacred cow" of all "sacred cows".

Remember Tony Blair's promises regarding the NHS in all three elections that he fought and won? The promises about more doctors, more nurses all to be completed in the course of that particular Parliament. I observed and commented in discussion at the time how patently empty these promises were as there was only one way they could deliver on those promises - qualified doctors and nurses would have to come from elsewhere, because it takes longer than the life of any single Parliament to complete the medical training required. So Steve your point about training places is irrelevant, the money required to do that was used to recruit qualified personnel from abroad.

In other fields the charge that - "We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do" - falls apart when you can get ready trained and experienced people from every trade and profession imaginable through the EU free movement of labour, under circumstances that you cannot prevent them from offering their labour. This leaves work that our youngsters are not prepared to do, so others more willing fill those slots. There is also the likes of you and Carroll who disapprove of modern day apprenticeships.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 07:32 AM

Not vindictiveness at all Akenaton.

I do not know most people on this forum, there are one or two exceptions who I have met and enjoyed the company of.

Thus I can only judge a person with the information I have, that is with the information they post on here.

I recent weeks Teribus (with whom I often disagree it has to be said) has increasingly posted aggressive, virulent sometimes strange but often downright nasty posts.

His posts have reminded me of some of the extremes of 1930's Germany and thus my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:17 AM

No Akenaton it is not vindictiveness with Raggy - it is pure rage and frustration hence his references to "bricks for gas ovens" and suitability for service at Treblinka, Chelmno or Auschwitz-Birkenau. Truth is as far as being "governed" and dominated by an ideology both Raggy and Jom would serve far more readily if for one second they believed that in doing so it would advance their beliefs. Incapable of independent thought they are trapped by their own clichéd, worn out, disproven myths and bankrupt philosophy.

Raggy's rage and increasing levels of frustration stem from the fact that he hates having the mistakes made by him and his "friends" pointed out to everybody (Not really difficult considering the wealth of idiotic statements they come out with).

And all because I had a bit of harmless fun using information that he supplied to make the observation that someone living abroad, say in Ireland, being paid a UK pension in £Sterling would be taking a drop in pay - Oh dear how horrid of me.

Examples please of "frenzied, virulent and intemperate" or even "aggressive, virulent sometimes strange but often downright nasty posts"

Many people posting in 1930s Germany Raggy?

By the way FTSE at 11 month high
More people employed in the UK than ever before
Wages in the UK higher than they have ever been before

Source by the way - Office of National Statistics

Oh dear aren't we in such a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM

That is one of your most desperate ever posts. All wishy-washy theory, no numbers, all surmise, quite a lot of spinning. You're nothing If not entertaining,, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM

I was referring to the 06.22 post.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 11:45 AM

You're nothing If not entertaining,, Teribus.

Entertaining? Don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM

I refer you once again, to my 9 July, 2:50 PM posting. Some things, regrettably don't change.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:08 PM

Oh he is entertaining..

a classic comedy heartless tory villain,
if only we still had sit com writers of the calibre of Galton & Simpson [retired ?] and Johnny Speight [deceased]
to create an edgy satirical TV series based around him.. 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:29 PM

All clowns are entertaining - even the ones who scare you shitless with their nastiness - didn't you ever see 'Dumbo'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

OK, all the LIARS who cited the threat of TTIP as a reason for leaving EU, how do you explain this as part of Davis's exit blueprint?

"The UK should "accelerate" the agreement of the controversial Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership deal with the US"

Another one:

"Britain should start to wean itself off grants from Brussels well before the UK finally severs its links to the EU and instead pay grants directly to farmers and fishermen"

Out of taxpayers money? - So why should farmers, and fishermen get a single penny while we are still contributing to CAP? And after, why should they get a penny, as we are leaving on the basis of the promise that the EU contribution would directly fund the health service, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 06:58 AM

I object to paying subsidies to farmers. No-one gives a shit if my business goes to the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM

Matter of CHOICE SPB-Cooperator and who gets to make the choices that affect us.

Out of the EU, UK politicians can make decisions and choices that affect the UK and only the UK.

Inside the EU, we a re forced to accept and comply with decisions and choice that may well not be in our interests.

Out of the EU, it is far, far easier for the UK to make trade deals with whoever it wishes to, we do not have to get unanimous agreement of 27 other Governments before we can sign up. The world is a larger trading partner than Europe.

VAT was the tax introduced in the UK when it joined the Common Market to pay our share into the EEC's coffers. Now that we are leaving the EU we can do one or more of three things:

1: Scrap it altogether
2: Retain it and immediately profit by the net amount we pay to Europe (After Germany the UK was the EU's biggest contributor, so if we maintain VAT at current levels we get to keep what we previously paid to Europe)
3: Keep the VAT system but rejig it and tailor it suit our requirements.

"the basis of the promise that the EU contribution would directly fund the health service, nothing else."

No such "promise" was ever made, the statement made regarding hospitals, etc, were illustrative of what the use the savings from not paying into the EU MIGHT be put to in the UK - NOT what they would be used for.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM

On the Brexit Battle Bus it said:

"WE SEND THE EU £350 MILLION A WEEK: LET'S FUND OUR NHS INSTEAD, VOTE LEAVE"

Quite clear, quite unequivocal the NHS were to get a cash windfall, not we MIGHT give them a few bob extra.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

"After Germany the UK was the EU's biggest contributor..."

Which is why Germany has done SO badly in the EU, why its economy is nosediving SO steeply and why everybody in Germany is SO miserable about being in the EU...

Mind you, they didn't have a Thatcher to shut down their manufacturing industries and turn them into a nation of unregulated banking spivs and insurance salesmen...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 12:55 PM

I didn't mention VAT, but as you brought it up, contribution is fixed at 0.3% of VAT revenue - ie 0.06% of the net charge of taxable supplies in UK. The fixed contribution is standard for all EU states, and the net based on individual states' choice of VAT rates. So by exiting we could reduce VAT to 19.94%. Below this would result in a reduction in retained tax revenue which would be at the expense of public spend or ability for deficit reduction.

Also it is misleading to associate EU standardisation with imposition of indirect taxation. Before VAT we had purchase tax which at once stage was charges at over 38%. Unfortunately I was only 12 or 13 when it was phased out and as such I am yet to find a web page that explains its mechanisms.

With regards to making choices - I do not have problems with making decisions as part of a wider consensus with care towards how my decisions have an impact on others and only 0.25% of decisions in the council of ministers not going UK's way is not a bad track record.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:15 PM

Purchase Tax Rate was 25% immediately prior to the introduction of VAT on 1/4/73, which, of course, replaced Purchase Tax.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:04 PM

They are all moot points, the die is cast, people no matter how they voted must move on.
The situation in Turkey aught to make us thank our lucky stars for Mr Farage without whom there would have been no Brexit. I don't suppose he will get any respect from the sore losers here, but he deserves respect in shedloads......Have you actually watched him in debate? He cuts them all down. He knows the facts whether they be politically correct or not. He said he would get the UK out of the EU and he did so spectacularly.

Regardless of his politics, are you unable to appreciate principle and bravery?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

And then he f**ked off to collect his 95,000 Euro a year as an MEO plus his 43,000 Euro a year allocation for unspecified expenses PLUS his other claimed for expenses ALL from the very body he objects so much to.

I could do that "gissa a job"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:29 PM

"but he deserves respect in shedloads"

No he doesn't. He's a con artist, a xenophobe a regressive and he's the lot of you hook line and sinker, then scarpered when the real work starts.

You've been done up like a kipper son.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 05:18 PM

As I have mentioned already, Mr Farage would have been given no part in implementing the decision to leave the EU, his job is done he has delivered, it is up to the government to bring forward Brexit.... and it will be done whether you like it or not.

The EU is rapidly becoming a basket case.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM

"his job is done he has delivered"
So an unelected, beer swilling fascist moron had a part in the decision to leave the E.U. - and a racist, homophobic follower has the nerve to complain about unelected bureaucrats!!
The die is cast, and Britain must live with the consequences, but the Brexits here feel no need to even respond to those consequences, not even to defend them.
Dishonest, irresponsible and cowardly, all in one bundle
Perhaps you can tell us when you mean to send them all back Ake - have you stopped any on the street yet and asked them when they are going home - or don't you have the bottle to do that even?
Maybe you can start dropping reminders through their la etter boxes, or asking them why they aren't wearing their armbands.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:10 AM

He is an elected MEP.
He was elected to resist EU from within.
He has received nothing that he is not fully entitled to.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

"He is an elected MEP."
And as an unattached MEP he had no responsibility to "deliver" anything without the authority of parliament.
He's taken the money and run, as do all of his type
"He has received nothing that he is not fully entitled to."
Neither has Neil Kinnock - whether either entitlement is justified is a moot point.
He was elected on a racist ticket - if that's how you people wish Britain to be recognised..... what does it say about you as British citizens (you've told us that anyway)'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM

Your hero Farage has the 745th best voting attendance record in the European Parliament. There are 746 MEPs. The only one with a worse record is a man who has suffered long-term ill-health that has prevented him from attending. One could suggest that the way to resist the EU "from within" would be to bloody well turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM

Mr Farage was the instigator of the campaign, a campaign which has been extremely effective.

He even manage to convince many Ex Labour voters to join in and support a cause which is way above party politics.

Armbands? they were concealed wristbands, and I do not support Fascism or terrorise people......Mr Farage and his family have received dozens of death threats from people not unlike you Jim.
I have never heard Mr Farage contend that immigrants who have arrived here legally should be sent home....he has always said that we can never "have control" over who comes here or in what numbers till we exit the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:32 AM

"Mr Farage was the instigator of the campaign, a campaign which has been extremely effective. "
In breaking up the UK, closing the door on employment for British people prepared to travel, destabalising British economy and industry and dividing the British people - well done Mr Farage and well done the hate-filled twots who supported him.
Sounds, from his voting record, that he really put an effort into what he was paid to do, but I suppose you'll have as much courage to respond to that as you have to he shit-storm you people have created for Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:42 AM

Give the country time Jim. Its only been a couple of weeks of blind terror from the establishment.....Calm down, all will be well, in a few months time all this will just seem like a bad dream.....you will love it getting to know all these nice trading partners from all over the world......why, some of them may even be family, long forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM - Nope.

Steve Shaw - 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM - Since its creation the EU has existed as a cosy club designed to keep Germany and France sweet - they run the EU and they interpret the rules as best benefit themselves.

Steve Shaw - 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM - "Well said" Shaw? SPB's post backs up precisely what I said - Out of the EU WE get to decide what VAT is.

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM - Yes he does Raggy as do every single one of the 750 other MEPs - that is what they are entitled to as part of this great "gravy train" - but look at the bright side, seeing as how you object to it so much - in a short while WE won't be paying anything towards it.

Jim Carroll - 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM - Unelected?? How the hell do you think he became an MEP you Prat I think last time out in 2014 some 750,000 odd voted for UKIP in the South East England EU Constituency he represents.

Jim Carroll - 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

"as an unattached MEP he had no responsibility to "deliver" anything without the authority of parliament."

About the daftest statement I think I have ever read - not surprising really considering who wrote it - Parliamentary democracy Jom - what about the man's responsibility to deliver what he promised those who voted for him - oddly enough the world MIGHT be a far better place if more elected representatives followed his example and did the same.

Steve Shaw - 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM - Turn up, wasting his time and our money to do what? Please supply one instance where his absence and the want of his vote would have changed anything one iota. But as Akenaton has stated a couple of times now - Nigel Farage arrived in the EU Parliament and stated he would take the UK out - he has managed to do that and his greatest ally in achieving that aim has been the arrogance, the idiocy, the smugness and the inefficiency of the EU itself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

And speaking of entertaining clowns, I give you the new Fortigh Secretary!

"Last week's announcement that European Union exit campaign leader Boris Johnson would become Britain's foreign secretary was greeted in global capitals as a joke or a twisted insult. Such is the depth and duration of Johnson's columnist-clever insults, international reaction to his appointment has been overwhelmingly negative. Johnson is widely viewed as inherently untrustworthy, a buffoon bizarrely elevated to become Britain's premier representative abroad."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/boris-johnson-foreign-secretary-view-from-abroad

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM

Ah so someone to carry on the traditions and example as set by the late great Lord George Brown.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:03 AM

I cannot help but feel that Boris has been set up to fail.

One stupid/misguided comment or action and he could be out on his ear and into the cold.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM

Greg, Boris is a right wing politician and the Guardian is a left wing paper.
What opinion did you expect?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:43 AM

Nigel Farage, the Ukip MEP said, "Any similarity to democracy in the European Parliament is purely accidental. Ukip MEPs spend more time helping constituents whose lives and livelihoods have been ruined by EU legislation.
"While we are always present for crucial votes, Britain has normally already been sold down the river by the British government long before the parliament votes on what is a foregone conclusion."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM

What opinion did you expect?

Yours, as usual, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:14 PM

"Calm down, all will be well, in a few months time all this will just seem like a bad dream.....you will love it getting to know all these nice trading partners from all over the world......"

Seriously? You think we're just going to drift into a whole slew of trade agreements in a few months? You think we're going to negotiate out of the EU within a few months? You think Article 50 will be triggered in a few months?

May will have little choice to kick the ball into the long grass for a while. We won't gain access to the single market without freedom of movement, and many in the EU won't be minded to be particularly accommodating now. All those Easter European states have a veto, and they're not as easily brought as your leaders told you and they don't care for our world 'status' (such as it was).

To get the trade deals we need (no deals, no investment) we'll probably ending up agreeing to everyone's demands to get a trade deal with them and get royally fucked over at the same time. These deals will be heavily incentivised, lobbied for very aggressively and those offering them will not give two shades about our desire to maintain an NHS for the good of our people, or any of those wonderful 'British' values we're taking back for ourselves and make our country great. Then we need to deal with tariffs for each individual country we trade with, subsidies that we now have to find ourselves from farmers, regions, etc to the complete lack of EU money coming into our cities to regenerate them etc. We need to find the money for the grants we will loose to fund the ground-breaking research we do in our universities (where things are not good following the vote). Boris and Nige lied on their bus. Lied.

You can believe all this flam from the likes of Boris and Farage, but making their Brexit fantasy world a reality is not going to be easy... as the Canadians, who are seven years into trade negotiations with the Eu and still a ways off from ratification. The sheer amount of negotiation to be done is boggling, and we have very few negotiators.

The thing is, Brexit won't be some utopian dream of flag-waving nationalists and the forgotten working class because it's they who will suffer. There is so much to fix and Theresa may knows full well much of this exceeds the mandate of the government; she'll have to go to the country in 2020 to get the go-ahead for any deal with the EU from the voters, and a lot can change in that time. So far we've had little (if any) psotive action from the Brexiteers, and those of us who didn't vote for leaving but have as equal a stake in this country as any leaver will be holding them to account. Not to do so would be to go against what we've stood for so long in this country and what the Leavers forgot in their hurry to go; we have a history of progressive and radical politics which has always challenged the status quo to improve the lot of the ordinary man.

Brexiteers, prepare to be challenged. For years and years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:54 PM

Nothing can be made to work, unless there is a will to make it so.

The EU had decades and it still doesn't work.

I honestly think you people would love to see the country fail, so that your idiotic ideology remains intact. At this moment in time there are much more important things than "minority rights"

This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:24 PM

"many in the EU won't be minded to be particularly accommodating now"

Now why would that be the case? We buy more from them than they do from us. Do you really think any shop, or restaurant owner acts in such a manner to put obstacles in the way of a good customer? Bloody idiotic.

Any time anyone from the liberal-left starts wittering on about protecting the NHS you know that they are losing the argument, they invoke it like a lucky charm.

"Then we need to deal with tariffs for each individual country we trade with"

Oh goody if they charge tariffs on our goods and services, does that mean that mean we get to charge tariffs on theirs? And as they sell more to us who collects the more from tariffs us or them?

You've forgotten little things like the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and France and problems with the Euro - none of them gone away and they are unlikely to in the near future.

Nobody in Europe is going to punish the UK for exercising a right that is specifically mentioned in the Treaty - THE RIGHT OF A STATE TO LEAVE - That may well be way you ideologues would act, cutting your nose off to spite your face, but it is not what reasonable, rational people do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

"About the daftest statement I think I have ever read "
Really?
Did you here about the English itinerant wirork forece with nowhere to live,
Or the lazy British Teachers, nurses, tradesmen, who thought it was wrong to be forced to work stacking shelves in Sainsburys for a pittance
Or the Irish who really didn't want independence but who had to be tricked into it.
Or the sales of ammunition to Syria which never happaened, or were refused a licence, or were granted a licence but never sent, or were the wrong size.... (or another three or four reasons).
Or Liverpudlians living in riches in 1914
Or Democratic Britain in the 1840s.....
Or any of the other pratish ideas you've tried to bully through and then done a runner from?
You have led a very sheltered life.
Still having trouble at home, so you have to come here and show us what a big boy you are?
Are you ever going to actually present some proof for your stupid arguments?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:14 PM

""While we are always present for crucial votes, Britain has normally already been sold down the river by the British government long before the parliament votes on what is a foregone conclusion."


Did you not understand Steves' post ! ? !


"Your hero Farage has the 745th best voting attendance record in the European Parliament. There are 746 MEPs. The only one with a worse record is a man who has suffered long-term ill-health that has prevented him from attending. One could suggest that the way to resist the EU "from within" would be to bloody well turn up"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM

Nobody is going to punish the UK, eh? So you think the EU is going to be falling over backwards to give us great deals? Well there's something you need to know, Mr Lack-of-realpolitik. An awful lot of the 27 remaining nations are watching this with interest to see if there is something in it for them if they also choose to leave. Well them damn Germans and French were not born yesterday. They will make leaving as difficult as possible for us. In fact, it's perfectly possible that we won't leave at all. Pour encourager les autres, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 02:39 AM

on the other hand Germany who runs the show, exports 20 per cent of their cars to the uk, do not want to lose that market.
i hope cmmon sense prevails and the UK is allowed to be in EEA.
there are other trade alternatives, but in my opinion it is better to be trading with countries geographically closer than the commonwealth or god forbid China, a country that to my knowledge has litlle respect for its workforce or the environment, a country that has been illegally occupying Tibet since the 1950s, a country that has boasted some of the most murdrous regimes of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 04:00 AM

I would accept EEA membership as second best as long as UK accepts its responsibilities - conforming with EU regulation, free movement of people, continuing to contribute to EU budget etc etc - but without the right to a say on what these responsibilities are.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

"Oh goody if they charge tariffs on our goods and services, does that mean that mean we get to charge tariffs on theirs?"

Well, it's that simple isn't it? Despite what your leaders told you, the process of Brexit is neither simple or easy, and blurting out childish sneers might work in the absolutist world of Brexiteering, but the reality is far more nuanced and complex than that. If brexiteers were interested in healing divisions instead of gloating over their 'victory' then we might actually get somewhere. You're going to have to temper your expectations a bit, prepare for Brexit lite.


" Do you really think any shop, or restaurant owner acts in such a manner to put obstacles in the way of a good customer? "

Well, a business person has to operate within the parameters and conditions imposed upon them by government, and they are subject to competition. In our capitalist society, competition is seen as a good thing (and of course it is, up to a point) but it needs to be fair and it needs to be lawful, and hopefully ethical. When we leave the EU our trading partners will become our competitors too, unencumbered by a regulatory framework that levels the playing field to allow countries to compete equally; this encourages diversity and more diversity means a more robust economy. Take this away, and you;re in a free-for-all, which is what we will be upon Bretix. May has to try to insult us from the worst of these effects, we can't simply leap into the unknown without careful thought, something the Brexit leaders (and their voters, reading this thread) seem to have given little thought to at all.

Free trade agreements are a series of deals, and each one has to be negotiated separately or you gang together to increase your bargaining power, and now we're out of the gang our bargaining power is much reduced; this is really simple stuff anyone who runs a business knows. Before we leave the gang, we've got to negotiate the best possible terms and this will mean some big compromises.


"This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way."

At the cost of people's jobs? Their quality of life? Equality?



"Any time anyone from the liberal-left starts wittering on about protecting the NHS you know that they are losing the argument, they invoke it like a lucky charm."

More sneering, well done. The NHS represents what is best about our society; hard-working, caring and honest people dedicated to helping people and alleviating suffering, free for,all and paid for from taxation. It represents some of the best medical care in the world and the truth is, if you need it you'll use it and be grateful. It's the one thing that gives most people any faith in this country, and it should be protected and fought for with passion. Giving it over to predatory outside interests is not only bad for all of us who rely on the NHS but also would demonstrate the demise of our so-called 'British' values of decency and fairness. My doctor friends in the US are amazed we would ever even consider dismantling it for a US-style system, where people die from treatable illnesses because they have no money, or suffer for years for a want of prescription drugs or orations they cannot afford.

If we can't protect the NHS, a force for good born out of the suffering if the Second World War, then what is left worth protecting?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 07:10 AM

The "Oh goody" remark was in response to your rather idiotic take on the fact that tariffs might be levied, the way you described it they could only be levied on our goods - I merely pointed out to you that it would be a two way street and that as they sold more to us than we did to them then we would gain in any tariff war.

It is blindingly obvious to any sentient human being that our disengagement from the EU will be complex, which is why I have said all along that any negotiations will be aimed at reaching a compromise solution to the mutual benefit of all. The EU will not seek to "punish the UK" to do so would be against its own interests.

Not so much a case of "Brexiteers" gloating Stu, more a case of those who voted to "Remain" proving unwilling to accept that the UK voted to leave the EU. But that too is something that the "Remainers" refuse point blank to accept - we re leaving the EU we are not leaving Europe or turning our backs on it.

Free trade agreements are an anathema to the EU as they challenge the inherent "protectionism" of the EU. One astounding fact that came out of the EU Referendum campaign was that Switzerland and Singapore have each individually negotiated trade deals with other countries in the world worth five times the deals negotiated by the EU. The EU has no trade deal in place with any of the nations of this world with the highest growth rates. Why? Because the EU negotiating machinery is too cumbersome and too complicated each of the EU's 28 member states have to individually agree before a deal is made - in short it is as achievable as herding cats or pushing water up a hill.

This point of yours to the following comment on something said by Akenaton:

This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way."

At the cost of people's jobs? Their quality of life? Equality?

I would point out to you that according to the ONS there are more people in work in the UK today that at any point in its history - so what is the cost in terms of people's jobs?

As to quality of life? Purely judging what I have seen in the course of my own life (Grandparents generation; my own parents generation; my generation and my own children's generation) indicates a constant and steady improvement on all levels.

Greater equality nowadays than ever before.

Being in the EU or not has no effect whatsoever on the NHS in the UK, we had it before we joined and we will continue to have it after we leave. What standard we have in the NHS is entirely dependent upon us and if that means paying more in taxes then that is what we will have to do. But one undeniable fact is that as we are one of the eleven members of the EU who pay in more than we take out, just by leaving and keeping everything the same we gain what was our former net contribution - and that money can be allocated wherever it is needed - the choice is ours.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 08:09 AM

I fully accept the fact we're leaving the EU, so do most Remainers. What I don't accept is that the Brexiteers should have full control over how this is achieved, as they have no more right to negotiate on the nation's behalf than anyone else and have showed a certain lack of rigour and nuance in the campaign (although the Gov't wasn't a whole lot better). As the Brexiteers also seem to hate the experts we need to negotiate the deals we will have to make then it is essential we have a range of positions in our teams.

"it would be a two way street and that as they sold more to us than we did to them then we would gain in any tariff war"

A tariff war? Why provoke such a reaction? It would be rash to go into any negotiations with such an arrogant attitude as the Brexiteers seem to display. We know you hate foreigners, but you have to work with them and that includes the Europeans. Belligerent Little Britaineers being all bluster and puffy chested are the last thing we need, and most of the country has moved on from such anachronistic attitudes. In the real world we're not an empire any more, just one more nation becoming more insular and more isolationist.


"Because the EU negotiating machinery is too cumbersome and too complicated each of the EU's 28 member states have to individually agree before a deal is made"

Precisely the reason why the Brexit negotiations won't be the walkover the Brexiteers seem to think they will be. Our negotiating position is not as strong as some of us were led to believe, and the idea we will have access to the single market without the free movement is a fantasy, pure and simple.

Life is far more complex and unpredictable than some of your erstwhile leaders would have you believe. This will be long, drawn out and probably rather painful.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 01:16 PM

"Greater equality nowadays than ever before."
WEALTH GAP IN BRITAIN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 06:51 PM

Stu, please name those who will be charged with participation in the negotiations that will govern the UK leaving the EU.

If you cannot do that then please consign all such emotive and irrelevant twaddle such as:

"What I don't accept is that the Brexiteers should have full control over how this is achieved, as they have no more right to negotiate on the nation's behalf than anyone else and have showed a certain lack of rigour and nuance in the campaign (although the Gov't wasn't a whole lot better)."

To the dustbin - you have no idea at all who will be our negotiators so please do not try to attempt to pre-empt the situation by making groundless claims - Article 50 has not yet been triggered base your arguments on reality not hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM

It is interesting that Teribus states that as a majority voted to leave the EU the rest of the people will just have to put up with it and it is true we will.

However in the General Election of 1918 in Ireland when Arthur Griffiths said that if elected they would not take their seats in the houses of Parliament, but instead they would form an Irish National Assembly the Irish people voted 73 Republicans, 6 Parliamentary Party (Also Nationalist)out of a total of 105 seats. Just 26 seats polled a majority for the Unionists.

BUT if we are just to count numbers of the 1,525,910 votes registered just 315,394 had voted for a Union the remainder and by far and away a huge majority had voted for the Republic and Irish independence.

79& had voted for a Republic 21% had voted for the Union.

This is rather more than the 51.9% to 48.1% of the Referendum. The British of course, as is their wont, refused to recognise the Irish National Assembly despite a clear mandate from the Irish people.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 11:32 AM

That of course should read that 79% voted for a Republic

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:09 PM

Raggytash - 20 Jul 16 - 10:58 AM

Irrelevant twaddle Raggy.

Those elected were elected as part of a British General Election - note that Raggy, the fact that they decided not to take their seats at Westminster is actually the full extent of their protest.

In 1801 Ireland became part of the United Kingdom as a result of the Acts of Union 1800. To dissolve that Union requires an Act to be passed by the Westminster Parliament.

The same was true and would be true for the last and any future independence referendum for Scotland, for that referendum to be held it requires an Act of Parliament to be passed by Westminster, for the Union to be dissolved an Act of Parliament has to be passed by Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:39 PM

In 1801 Ireland became part of the United Kingdom as a result of the Acts of Union 1800

Was that the result of a plebicite in which all the Irish were able to vote?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 12:52 PM

Care to let us in on any country in 1800 who held plebiscites Greg F.

The Irish Parliament voted on and passed the 'Act of Union (Ireland) 1800', and the British Parliament voted on and passed the 'Union with Ireland Act 1800'

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

I didn't really expect any other response Teribus.

Arthur Griffiths said BEFORE the election that any elected candidate to the nationalist side would NOT take their place in Westminster but would form a Irish National Assembly.

The people knew that and voted accordingly. SEVENTY NINE PERCENT OF THE ENTIRE ELECTORATE WHO VOTED took that option.

Not a mere 51.9% whose choice you have defended many times on this thread.

The will of the "people" you are so proud of defending in the recent referendum doesn't count when the will of the people goes against something you have so vehemently argued for.

Yet another example of your complete and utter callous disregard to other peoples viewpoint and your complete and utter disregard for democracy that doesn't fit your preconceived ideas.

As I said no surprise at all, still we all have to live to the Brexit vote.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:54 AM

Raggytash - 20 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

Well Raggy, I too didn't really expect any other response from you as you don't seem to understand the difference between voting in a General Election and voting in a Referendum - tell me Raggy, have you always had this penchant for insisting on comparing apples to oranges?

Those elected to the Parliament of Westminster from Irish constituencies who refused to take their seats in 1918 did what they felt was right for their cause, i.e. sanction the murder of policemen and anyone else wearing a uniform bearing a crown, they were fully intent on having a war but they did not put that to the voters. The newly elected members from the rest of the United Kingdom sat in session and debated and passed the Government of Ireland Bill 1920 into law. This granted Home Rule to both the Southern Irish counties and to the Northern Irish six counties. The Republicans in the South had their "War of Independence" which was fought to a stalemate which first resulted in a truce being declared in July 1921 and peace talks that led to the Anglo-Irish Treaty signed on the 6th December 1921. The fact that the 1920 Government of Ireland Act had brought about the creation of a duly constituted Parliament in Ulster passed over the heads of the "Republicans" at about 40,000ft, but having been created it gave the Ulster Parliament a say in what was to happen next when all 32 counties of Ireland were granted independence. One of the clauses in the Anglo-Irish Treaty granted Ulster the right to opt out of becoming part of what was known as the Irish Free State. All of the above was brought about by people following what they saw as being Parliamentary procedure resulting from the process of voting in elections - not a single referendum vote involved, so where and what is your point of comparison between the regional results of a General Election in 1918 (A vote to decide who represents you in Parliament) and a National Referendum vote in 2016 (Where the electorate of the whole country is asked one specific question)?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM

"but they did not put that to the voters."
No national liberation fighters put their fight to a vote
Did the Brits put sending the murderous Tans into Ireland to the vote?
Were the illegal and unconstitutional executions that eventually put paid to British rule in Ireland put to the vote?
Was the partitioning of Ireland that is still filling body bags put to the vote?
Was the murderous crew who introduced the gun back into Irealnd and allowed to set up a persecutiong State put to the vote?
Don't be stupid
Ireland was never "granted independence" - it won partial independence and neither the British nor the Irish electorate ever asked to vote on the issue.
Are you going to comment on the wealth gap in Britain?
Suppose not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

Arthur Griffiths stated BEFORE the election that those from Sinn Fein and the Parliamentary Party, if elected, would form an Irish National Assembly. He stated BEFORE the election that they would NOT take their seats in Westminster.

Thus the choice of the majority of the people, a majority you have defended so vigorously on here, was an Independent body to govern Ireland.

A majority of 79% to 21% which even you should have to acknowledge is greater than 51.9% to 48.1%.

Allow me to remind you of a post you placed on the 25 June responding to a post from Jim Carroll clearly stating that just because regions of the UK had voted Remain the overall vote was to Leave.

Jim had posted "Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

YOU REPLIED

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."

In 1918 the country of 32 counties of Ireland vote for a Irish National Assembly by a far greater majority than 51.9% to 48.1%

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 AM

"you have no idea at all who will be our negotiators so please do not try to attempt to pre-empt the situation by making groundless claims "

One assumes the establishment shill. Brexiteer and serial liar our Prime Minister made Foreign Secretary will be involved at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:04 AM

Ah more twaddle from Jom:

Jim Carroll - 21 Jul 16 - 04:08 AM

1: So as "No national liberation fighters put their fight to a vote" then you can have no objection whatsoever that "the murderous crew" took advantage of the lawful political process to hold elections and form their own Parliament under the 1920 Government of Ireland Act - at least Jom they were a damned sight more honest and open about what they were doing than their "Republican" counterparts in the South.

2: "Did the Brits put sending the murderous Tans into Ireland to the vote?

No why would they? Sinn Fein openly condoned the murder of RIC Officers and did absolutely nothing to uphold law and order in the country - remember they actually wanted a war - that was the part of their plan that they did not let those who voted for them in on. How many lives did that cost again Jom? Then of course because they had ballsed up right royally and completely failed to get their "united Ireland" they then threw the toys out of the pram and insisted on having a Civil War that killed a few thousand more Irish men women and children. All of this in the immediate aftermath of the greatest bloodbath in history.

3: "Were the illegal and unconstitutional executions that eventually put paid to British rule in Ireland put to the vote?

Yes they were actually, the vote of those sitting on the Court-Martial Panel. The executions were neither illegal or unconstitutional. Those who plan and attempt an armed insurrection and collude with the enemy in time of war, who declare themselves as representing a nation without mandate who form alliances with the enemy and parade in uniform and declare themselves to be a National Army raised to fight the armed forces of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, cannot in all conscience demand to be treated as civilians subject to criminal prosecution and due process once their rebellion has failed with the country under Martial law.

4: "Was the partitioning of Ireland that is still filling body bags put to the vote?"

Yes it was - "The 1921 general election was explicitly fought on the issue of partition, being in effect a referendum on approval of the concept of a Northern Ireland administration."

The sad and unfortunate fact that body bags are still being filled Jom stems from the "mythology of 1916" which you so openly applaud and celebrate that gives oxygen to the mistaken belief that the gun has pride of place in Irish Republican/Nationalist politics. The GFA, the subsequent referendum and the watershed changes made to the Republic of Ireland's Constitution have robbed all such idiots who support the "men of the gun" of any legitimacy or claim to any mandate from the people of Ireland.

5: "Ireland was never "granted independence" - it won partial independence and neither the British nor the Irish electorate ever asked to vote on the issue."

Well formally and technically it was "granted independence" that was what all that palaver related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty was all about:

"The Irish Free State as contemplated by the treaty came into existence when its constitution became law on 6 December 1922 by a royal proclamation giving the force of law to the Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922."

The Irish Free State Constitution Act 1922 was an Act of Parliament passed by the Westminster Parliament Jom, I didn't make it up it exists and represents historical fact irrespective of whether you chose to believe it or not. How much of a complete and utter idiot you wish to make of yourself is of no interest or importance to me.

6: "Are you going to comment on the wealth gap in Britain?

Why should I? Do I have to? My statement after all was - "Greater equality nowadays than ever before." - care to explain to us all why equality means wealth to you my little scouse Anglophobe? What about the wealth gap in the USA? China? The Republic of Ireland? Or anywhere else for that matter. If you wish to discuss equality then do so, wealth has got nothing whatsoever to do with equality.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:09 AM

YOU can assume what you like about the future Stu, just please do not present it as though it were already an established fact David Davies has been given the job of overseeing our departure from the EU, as far as I am aware he has not decided on anything as yet.

You are jumping fences before you come to them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:40 AM

Raggytash - 21 Jul 16 - 04:41 AM

"Arthur Griffiths stated BEFORE the election that those from Sinn Fein and the Parliamentary Party, if elected, would form an Irish National Assembly. He stated BEFORE the election that they would NOT take their seats in Westminster."

Anything in their manifesto about fomenting a war?

Anything in their manifesto about basically declaring open season on the RIC?

"Thus the choice of the majority of the people, a majority you have defended so vigorously on here, was an Independent body to govern Ireland."

And that Raggy is what they got and what they would have got had those elected had taken their seats in Westminster under the Government of Ireland Act 1920. The Ireland that was given its independence in 1922 under an Act of Parliament consisted of all 32 counties, within 24 hours the Ulster Parliament exercised its right to remain part of the UK. Now if it was OK for Griffiths to decide on Independence then it was equally OK for Craig to exercise his right to remain as that is what his electors wanted.

"A majority of 79% to 21% which even you should have to acknowledge is greater than 51.9% to 48.1%."

Apples and Oranges Raggy your 79% does not represent 79% of the votes cast, it represents the percentage of the total number of seats won. Sinn Fein won only 46.9% of the votes cast nation wide. The Party that came second to them was the Unionist Party. The 51.9% and 48.1% do accurately reflect the individual votes of the electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland there were no separate referenda in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England - just the one covering the entire country. The result was that the electorate chose to leave the EU.

"Allow me to remind you of a post you placed on the 25 June responding to a post from Jim Carroll clearly stating that just because regions of the UK had voted Remain the overall vote was to Leave.

Jim had posted "Northern Ireland voted stay, Scotland voted Stay only England opted to leave."

YOU REPLIED

"Nope - A referendum held in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the electorate voted to leave the EU."

And I still stand by that as a mere statement of fact. No separate referenda held so as with most things Jim Carroll concludes what he said was inaccurate, misrepresentative and wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:54 AM

"...wealth has got nothing whatsoever to do with equality."

Christ on a bike. Whst bloody planet are you on? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 06:01 AM

" Apples and Oranges Raggy your 79% does not represent 79% of the votes cast, it represents the percentage of the total number of seats won."

Er No Teribus, I earlier posted (which you have chosen to ignore)

"BUT if we are just to count numbers of the 1,525,910 votes registered just 315,394 had voted for a Union the remainder and by far and away a huge majority had voted for the Republic and Irish independence"

With regard to the recent referendum you have told us in no uncertain terms that those who voted Remain i.e the minority will have to live with it or have to deal with it, get used to it.

Unsurprisingly you are not giving that same response to a vote you disagree with. Now what was it you said to Steve Shaw, something about sauce for the goose and the gander.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:03 AM

"You are jumping fences before you come to them."

So... you think the Foreign Secretary will have nothing to do with Brexit? Won't be off trying to secure deals abroad?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:44 AM

Raggy the election and votes cast in Ireland in 1918 related to a General Election.

The votes cast on the 23rd June 2016 in the UK were related to a Referendum.

Hate to burst that little bubble you've rather disingenuously constructed but the two are not the same thing at all and well you know it.

Question: As a result of their vote in 1918 was a separate Parliament set up in Dublin? If the answer to that question is Yes, then the electorate got what they wanted.

The fact that this separate assembly was set up unilaterally by the nationalists and was not recognised by the Westminster Parliament was all part of Sinn Fein's plan they fully realised that that would be the case - Setting up a separate Parliament was not their goal their goal was independence by force of arms. They got their war of independence and they negotiated a settlement that some of their number were unhappy about so they then went and had a Civil War that killed thousands and caused immense damage to their fledgling nation.

When Sinn Fein set up their Parliament, the Unionists up in Ulster set up theirs, the Civil War in the South instigated by Eamon de Valera showed everybody that the Republicans in Ireland would not accept any democratic decision that did not accord with their wishes, that put the cap on it as far as the Unionists were concerned and ensured that Ireland would be partitioned.

That is what all those people voted for in 1918 Raggy.

The electorate of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland were asked one simple question on the 23rd June 2016 related to whether or not we should remain in the EU or leave it - the electorate chose the latter.

"1,525,910 votes registered?

I chose to ignore that figure because the following are the election results by Party in the 1918 General Election in Ireland:

Sinn Féin Éamon de Valera 476,087
Irish Unionist Edward Carson 257,314
Irish Parliamentary John Dillon 220,837
Labour Unionist None 30,304

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 07:49 AM

"1,525,910 votes registered?

I chose to ignore that figure because the following are the election results by Party in the 1918 General Election in Ireland:

Sinn Féin - 476,087
Irish Unionist - 257,314
Irish Parliamentary - 220,837
Labour Unionist - 30,304
Independent Nationalist — 8,183
Independent Labour — 659
Independent — 436

Total number of votes cast = 1,015,515

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:07 AM

I think Boris will make an excellent foreign secretary....he is likeable despite his politics. Even John Kerry who rarely cracks a smile seemed to take to the man, I'm certain he will have the same effect on Mr Putin or any of the other world leaders he is obliged to deal with.

In regard to Scotland, the two main reasons that a majority voted to remain, were that the full effects of unregulated immigration have not been felt this side of the border.....AND more importantly, the SNP spent a large amount of money and effort trying to persuade their supporters to vote remain. I was bombarded by e mails and pamphlets for weeks, I received no propaganda from the leave side. If this seems idiotic from a party who's raison d'etre is for Scotland to become an INDEPENDENT nation, then as a supporter of Independence, I would have to agree with you.

The SNP wrongly used EU membership as a plank of their campaign in the Independence referendum and were stuck with the consequences...they are now deeply in the shit, and it will not be possible to construct a new political platform for many years.
A big mistake from the two little fishes!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:26 AM

he is likeable despite his politics.

According to you, Ake, so's your hero The Trumpshit.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

"I think Boris will make an excellent foreign secretary....he is likeable despite his politics"

Ake loves an establishment old Bullingdon liar because he's a bit fumbly, bumbly and funny. No surprise there, given he loves another xenophobic ex-city broker with deeply questionable morals.

You gotta be a Trump fan Ake, he's your type of socialist!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:58 AM

I admire people of most political persuasions, I do not allow my views to blind me to their attributes.
The promotion of Boris to Foreign Secretary was a bit of a masterstroke from Mrs May.....on the other hand her jeering at Mr Corbyn while avoiding the question that he asked looked pathetic and beneath someone in the office of Prime Minister. The way that the phrase "Remind you of anyone" was delivered....with a vindictive leer, was disgraceful.
The problems afflicting the Labour Party did not begin with Mr Corbyn, but many years before when Labour was very electable indeed.

If we want a truly alternative opposition to the Conservative Party, then we must be aware that it will take at least a decade to set up.

Anything else, Liberal, Labour(Blairite) UKIP etc is not an alternative at all but an extension of the Capitalist System.

If we are all dedicated to the continuation of this system with its associated minority rights and other idiocies promoted by the media in place of governance based on what we can contribute to the common good allied to personal responsibility, then without doubt the Conservative Party will be the most efficient and the best bet in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM

" he's your type of socialist..." I nominate this for Quip Of The Week! Nice one, Stu! 😆

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:07 AM

I do not believe that boris Mr Farage, or Mr Trump, would make any pretence of being socialists......they are no more true socialist than Stu or Steve.   :0)

I know many people even on this forum with whom is disagree strongly on some political matters yet admire their conduct in debate.

I think you need to get your ideology into perspective and read a little political theory.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:39 AM

I abandoned political ideology a long time ago, look what happens when it replaces facts and ideas: Brexit/Trump/Farage and a slew of other idiots on all sides of the political spectrum... I'm not sure about Corbyn yet but he seems constrained by his own political ideologies.

No-one cases about truth, fact or evidence anymore. Politicians lie through their teeth to win campaigns and everyone just shrugs and they're made Foreign Secretary. Personal integrity has become meaningless, our political system beyond satire and the people kicking out to make a point regardless of whether it harms them or their children.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

Either way Teribus let us not be sidetracked by arguing specific numbers

Even if we use the figures you acquired (and neither of us can be definitive at this stage)it STILL equates to less than 30% voting for a Union.

By anyone's reckoning that means that OVER 70% voted for a Independent Ireland.

Now you being the great believer in Democracy that you would have us believe that you are (my ar.......m)70% of the total voting population voted in a way you as an individual cannot cope with.

You will find any way at all possible in order to try and "justify" your little Englander and Empire stance.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally.

I also find the SNP take on membership of the EU rather strange if what they want is independence. Of course the SNP never in their wildest dreams thought that the EU Referendum would return a Leave vote, they pushed for Remain to provide an excuse should there be a "Leave" result to claim their criteria of there being a "significant change", never expecting it to happen and now that it has they find themselves in a bit of a pickle - the last thing in the world that the SNP want in the near to medium future is a second independence referendum because they know full well that they would lose it. Not a single point that they faltered on in the last referendum has been resolved and all the posturing in the world by Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP alters the fact that Scotland's greatest trading partner is the rest of the UK. Of course oil that was going to pay for everything according to the SNP is still languishing at $47 per barrel (To make good on SNP promises it has to be upwards of double that).

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 11:04 AM

"Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally."

The only people you appear to respect here are Keith, bobad and akenaton. You never show the slightest sign of respecting anyone with mildly differing points of view, let alone wildly differing ones. So you're a fine one to talk, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 11:49 AM

"Akenaton fully agree with you about being able to discuss wildly differing points of view and still respect the person making their points and expressing their views reasonably and rationally."


Stu's list of rational quotes from Teribus, Thursday edition:

"THE F**KER WHO FEEDS THEM - YOU HALFWIT PRAT."

"Only to a wanker like you Shaw."

"Oh and please, please, please let just one of you clowns chirp up... as I will paint the room with you.

etc etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:07 PM

This has been commented on before Stu and I applaud your contribution I do hope you will keep it up day by day, it's quite amusing.

Teribus seems to consider abuse utterly out of order when directed at himself, Keith, Ake or Bobad and has been very vocal about it to the extent of complaining to the Moderators I believe.

Yet he feels it is quite in order to abuse other people, namely Jim Steve, yourself and I often and at length.

Because of complaints some valuable contributors, reasoned, knowledgeable and humorous no longer contribute yet he insist that there is a clique trying to get rid of one insignificant individual.

As Steve, I and other try to tell him, no such clique exists nor has it ever done.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM

He'll be here any minute telling us that he speaks as he finds, the crotchety, bad-tempered, humourless ould fart!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM

the crotchety, bad-tempered, humourless ould fart!

And those are his good qualities.........

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 03:40 PM

Well there certainly a clique trying to "get rid" of me for a number of years and Keith has been targeted consistently for the last couple of years.
In my case the people took it upon themselves to report me and the forum to the police, made up complete untruths regarding a criminal record and PROVEN charges concerning cruelty to animals in my care.
I was also stalked in my home village by these idiots, who did not realise that almost everyone here is a personal friend of mine.

They moved away some time ago, but while they were here they were supported by Steve and Jim amongst others.
I have most of the abuse and the support on file.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 03:46 PM

I would add that the probable reason that Mr T has not been abused in the same manner, is that he gives what he gets in no uncertain terms :0)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:04 PM

Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me.......

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 04:50 PM

Come on Greg, it's serious stuff and a criminal offence in this country. Especially printing libel.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:03 PM

I quite agree akenaton, libel should be dealt with promptly.

An approach to the small claims court might be a way forward if you are confident. The fact that this has been rolling for some time only adds to the suspicion that claims may have some substance.

I know not ..........either way.

If you recall I did say some considerable time ago that these allegations were out of order.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

Excuse me. Kindly do not connect me with Musket's specific criticisms of you. It was never anything to do with me and I never passed comment, either in support or otherwise. Your remarks in this regard are slanderous, frankly. Yes it is serious stuff and it's about time you took it seriously instead of lashing out carelessly at people who are entirely innocent of the charges you make. I strongly advise you not to do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 02:34 AM

"Mr T has not been abused in the same manner, is that he gives what he gets in no uncertain terms"
Teribus is a mindless troll who sneers and hurls abuse at anybody who disagrees with him
He offers no facts to any of his claims and refuses to link real information to any of his statements.
He is living proof to the saying, scratch a bully and you uncover a coward.
It's about time that people who abuse to the level he now does are warned off or stopped altogether - bring back the Mods
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:04 AM

Yes Raggytash, and I sincerely thank you for that.

All water under the bridge now as far as I am concerned, but it illustrates how a lynch-mob mentality can be formed.
When that is allowed to happen all meaningful debate is impossible.
Fortunately this forum is still a debating platform thanks in no small measure to Mr Offer.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:20 AM

I don't think Terbius is a mindless troll at all, but he can be bloody rude. I like debating with him, and have a fair degree of respect for him; it'd be good to talk over a pint. I also think he knows which buttons to push to wind up the usual suspects.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:37 AM

Steve Shaw - 21 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

"do not connect me with Musket's specific criticisms of you. It was never anything to do with me and I never passed comment, either in support or otherwise"

Then maybe you should have done. Remaining silent is no defence, there is such a thing as tacit approval. These denials and protestations of "innocence" of yours Shaw. Learn all that as a "Union Activist" - very good at making the bullets, but never get caught actually firing them, you leave that to the foot-soldiers.

I jumped into this a couple of years ago in an attempt to stop the constant "mobbing" of specific individuals by a certain group on this forum and yes Shaw you were one of those doing the "mobbing".

Akenaton is perfectly correct and he "slanders" no-one. The vilification he and others have had to put up with has been a disgrace. The scatter-gun approach and tactic of throwing out baseless accusations and allegations and proudly proclaiming that there is no need or intention of substantiating any of them was despicable, as were the tactics used to get threads closed down where you and your "friends" thought you were "losing" the argument and your arguments were being exposed as weak and indefensible.

There is nothing more cowardly than what you and your "friends" have done over the past couple of years on this forum, and you and your "friends" have rightly been pulled up on it openly on threads and according to various posts warned privately by PM.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 03:40 AM

Thank you for that Stu, much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 04:26 AM

"Akenaton is perfectly correct and he "slanders" no-one."
Yes he does - he's been warned about it before
I suggest you read his permanent stream of abuse.
He has moved from jut being arrogant to permanent trollism
Behaviour like his has closed threads before now and if he persistes, it will do so again

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:31 AM

"In my case the people took it upon themselves to report me and the forum to the police, made up complete untruths regarding a criminal record and PROVEN charges concerning cruelty to animals in my care."

When the heck did this happen? Did folk actually turn up where you lived?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

Well, Teribus, your head must have been reeling with busted blood vessels as you typed that little tirade! 😂 You are a hypocrite. You criticise ME for not wading into a dispute between people of which I knew nothing. You extrapolate from one comment of mine into a fantasy world consisting of what you think I'm like (this week I've been a physical bully, an agitator who allies myself to people who stick needles in horses and now I make the bullets and let the foot soldiers take the flak. Perhaps you also think that I make up a set of triplets with Arthur Scargill and Red Robbo whose mother ought to have been sterilised at birth. 😂😂😂. In another thread you are doughtily defending bobad who has cheated this forum with a secret double identity and who only ever quotes, if he ever quotes at all to take a rest from sniping, from extreme right-wing sources. You were silent when he accused people here of being Jew-haters but no-one ever turned on YOU to accuse you of being complicit. So on that score alone you can just bugger off.

"Jumped into this a couple of years ago in an attempt to stop the constant mobbing..." my arse. How pompous can you get. Who do you think you are! What a shame it wasn't a running jump. It's never too late to take one, I politely suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 05:48 AM

"When the heck did this happen? "
Whatt happened to Ake was wrong, but he is the last person in the world to complain about personal abuse - I wouldn't like to be a "disease carrying" homosexual in his presence, nor would I like to be
an culturally implanted" Muslim in the presence of others.
It's about time we all cleaned up our acts towards each other rather than whingeing about being insulted.
Some time ago Joe Offer made a suggestion that some of us should start behaving like adults - this was aimed at me as much as others.
I made an effort, but am finding it incredibly difficult under the torrent of personal abuse I am getting from Teribus in particular.
Perhaps 'glass houses and throwing stones' should be the order of the day and we can get down to serious debate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:34 AM

Nice to see that I am "getting through".

I have generally found Bobad's posts to be informative, interesting and pretty much on the money, which is more than I can say for your contributions Shaw.

Carroll - Most of what you and the usual suspects find to complain about in what Akenaton has posted result from your deliberate misinterpretation and misunderstanding of what he has written, Keith A's posts are also treated to this obtuse and deliberate misinterpretation.

Both have raised points for discussion on this forum and included in their posts quotes from informed sources who they name and link to, yet to you the opinions of those informed sources are immediately seized upon as being the words, thoughts and opinions of the poster. You then put words into their mouths and take them to task over them - when the same trick is played on you, you squeal like stuck pigs.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM

"I have generally found Bobad's posts to be informative, interesting and pretty much on the money, "
Bobad is even worse than you, if that were possible
He persistently refers to anybody whoo criticises Israel and "antisemitic" he has stated that he won't open links to information supplied by others and he draws his own information from extremist hate-sites such as "White Supremist", and "Muslim Watch".
The lattter include one of the largest cut 'n pastes ever made to this forum - about five pages worth of Islamophobic hate mail.
He is widely recognised as a troll by anybody who has fallen victim to his vitriolic abuse.
Outrage at his behavior is one of the reasons he has stopped posting to this site
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:54 AM

"Carroll -"
My chosen name is Jim Carroll
If you can't have the courtesy to respect that, please address your remarks generally
We were asked by Joe Offer to stop name-calling some time ago - most of us complied - you seem hooked on your uncontrolable thuggish rudeness
What is it with you - bad bringing-up, or what?
Pack it in and stop making these discussions unpleasant with your arrogant behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:15 AM

Re 06.34 AM post, Teribus. I've asked you once this week but you seem not to have replied: what planet are you on? This morning you've barked on about how you jumped in to rescue your wallowing duplicitous friends and now you claim to be "getting through." I'll tell you what. If any of your Thatcherite bile and your revisionism and your aggression and your bullying name-calling ever "gets through" to me I'll willingly turn myself in to the nearest brain surgery to have myself lobotomised. You really do think you are someone, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:22 AM

"Nice to see that I am "getting through"."
What Steve just said - your behavior is meglomanic if tyou believe bllying gets through to anybody
You are convincing nobody and you will never silence them with your torrent of insults.
Get your act together- just pretend that we are all equals, if that's what it takes!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 07:33 AM

Nah, Jim, you have it wrong. He convinces akenaton!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 08:59 AM

hate-sites such as "White Supremist", and "Muslim Watch".
The lattter include one of the largest cut 'n pastes ever made to this forum - about five pages worth of Islamophobic hate mail.

Never heard of or visited those sites in my life but it would appear that you have some familiarity with them.

As to the list of Islamist terrorist attacks you refer to, as I recall an equivalency was being made between Christian and Islamist terrorism. I put up a list of Islamist terrorist attacks which you were not able to counter so, as is your usual tactic when presented with facts that you are unable to challenge, you attack the messenger. It's your well known ruse that everyone here is quite familiar with by now - I should think you are one of the few who actually believe that anyone still falls for it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:06 AM

There goes another thread...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:09 AM

Never heard of or visited those sites in my life

Yeah, right, Boo. I believe ya - thousand's wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:09 AM

"but it would appear that you have some familiarity with them."
Only through you
They were traced and it was pointed out what they represented - you continued to draw from them
I suppse you are not going to respond to your constantly referring to critics as "antisemitic" despite the part of the definition which makes identifying Israeli policies as being the responsibility of the Jewish people an antisemitic act/
No
Thought not.
Back under your bridge methinks
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 09:41 AM

"... you attack the messenger. It's your well known ruse that everyone here is quite familiar with by now..."

Ha ha, hilarious. Until the rule changed to your disadvantage, we didn't know which bloody messenger you were. I suggest that if you don't want to be "attacked" you cut out the deception and dishonesty, apologise and stop the attacks yourself. You could start by saying sorry for calling people Jew haters. Hypocrite!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 10:16 AM

"There goes another thread..."
Not if everybody ignores him Stu (unless you gree with him, of course)
He is, by definition, an Anti-Semitic troll - that hes been pointed out and, as far as I'm concerned, there's an end t' it
Hopefully, the days of having these threads ended by trolls are over.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM

"There goes another thread..."

Surely he is referring to your post of 22 Jul 16 - 06:48 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:03 AM

Same old Boo-Spew. At least he's a CONSISTENT asshole!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 11:16 AM

During my rather long time here, I have gradually come to the conclusion that Keith and Teribus are good brave people and excellent debaters...they are exact in what they print, and always factually correct. The fact that Mr T does not suffer fools adds to his CV as far as I am concerned.

"It's about time we all cleaned up our acts towards each other rather than whingeing about being insulted."...well start acting upon your own advice Jim, you continually print "disease carrying homosexuals" as if I had actually written these words. What I have done is refer to official statistics, freely available to all both in the UK and the US, statistics which should be of concern to every thinking person.
you have also dissembled Keith's posts dozens of times, called him racist and Islam phobic, though it is clear that he is neither.
Keith never uses abuse, no matter how much provocation he is under.

Physician heal thyself!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:10 PM

I have gradually come to the conclusion that Keith and Teribus are good brave people and excellent debaters...they are exact in what they print, and always factually correct.

Ake, you say the same things about your heroes The Trumpshit and Farage.

Shows you what your opinion is worth.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:15 PM

Mr Farage is undoubtedly brave AND an excellent debater Greg. I reserve my opinion on Mr Trump until he has actually had to perform in office.
Mrs Clintons performances have left rather a lot to be desired....and forgiven!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:25 PM

Always factually correct, eh? Clearly, you didn't follow the Geoffrey Wheatcroft fiasco, in which Keith misquoted, Keith misrepresented, Keith made excuses, Keith wouldn't back down, Keith lied and Teribus backed him to the hilt. Still, if you insist on reading only what you want to read...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM

Wheatcroft.
You accused me of partially quoting.
In fact I had quoted the disputed passage in full already.

That is all you have on me and it was a year and a half ago!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:40 PM

Don't tempt us.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 12:57 PM

" Keith and Teribus are good brave people and excellent debaters."
Yeah - and I've come to believe that you're not really homophobic but just a subliminal homosexual
Keith and Teri9buss are both right wing exstremists- why shouldn't you admire them.
Birds of a feather, and all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM

I happily tempt you Steve.
You have nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 01:47 PM

For the second time today, sod off you old bore.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM

I see this thread has descended into interpersonal squabbles, rather than hosting a discussion of the issues. That's how it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

It does need to get back on track, for example if UK exits then the rest of Europe seizes all properties owned or part-owned by UK nationals in each country, and if they wish to stay they should pay a market rent + premium to the individual governments to help make up the loss of EU contribution from UK.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:45 PM

To make up for the loss of the loss of UK c0ntribution to EU budget

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 12:45 PM

From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 10:52 AM

It does need to get back on track, for example if UK exits then the rest of Europe seizes all properties owned or part-owned by UK nationals in each country, and if they wish to stay they should pay a market rent + premium to the individual governments to help make up the loss of EU contribution from UK.

Clearly living in a different universe. (a fantasy one). That (by any country's definition) would be theft. The current owners, of whatever nationality, have already paid the previous owners for the property. Under what system do you imagine they could be seized?

Also, at the same time would we be able to appropriate the property of other EU states here in the UK? We would at least no longer have the French charging us to drive across the River Severn to get home from England.

And why should they be able to make up for the loss of our contributions? While we remain a member we continue to pay for our membership. There would be no reason to pay if we leave.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 01:55 PM

Nations can not just seize innocent individuals' assets and property.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm


As we are a net contributor, then there would be less to contibute to cohension, economic stability and sustainability more deserving EU states.

If our government will not continue to contribute then the turkeys who have property abroad shouldn't have voted for christmas. If individual states make and apply their own property owners laws, then that is their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM

Complete nonsense.
It has always been perfectly permissible for any member state to leave.
The suggestion of reprisals against individual citizens is ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

With that controversial food for thought I have to think about food for my stomach. At least it has got the discussion back to EU and got away from the constant name calling the thread descended to.

I am happy to hear how other people suggest how UK should be forced to contribute to its MORAL duty to ensure the level of support for less economically developed states.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:42 PM

<>From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM

http://europa.eu/about-eu/basic-information/money/expenditure/index_en.htm


As we are a net contributor, then there would be less to contibute to cohension, economic stability and sustainability more deserving EU states.

If our government will not continue to contribute then the turkeys who have property abroad shouldn't have voted for christmas. If individual states make and apply their own property owners laws, then that is their choice.

Yes, we know that we are net contributors. That was one good reason to leave.
Your suggestion that individual states could make and apply their own property laws ignores another reason to leave. The EU is slowly removing the ability of member states to set their own laws. It would have to be an EU wide property grab if it were to be effective. And what states (currently outside the EU) would then feel safe investing in businesses within the EU if they knew that the EU could arbitrarily appropriate their property?

Cloud. Cuckoo. Land.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 02:58 PM

I am happy to hear how other people suggest how UK should be forced to contribute to its MORAL duty to ensure the level of support for less economically developed states.

"The UK gives more in international aid than any other developed country apart from the United States, according to figures from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development." BBC
There is a United Nations target that countries should give at least 0.7% of gross national income.
But only Sweden, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark and the UK reached this in 2014.
Countries such as the United States, Germany, Switzerland and Australia give much less as a proportion. (ibid)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:02 PM

0.7% is a tiny price to pay for the centuries of exploitation and slavery we imposed, to the eternal disadvantage of so many countries, and to our eternal shame, during the time when the sun never set on the red bits of the map.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 05:29 PM

Any organisation (or individual) which held property abroad is probably laughing their socks off at the moment.

Their portfolio, should they sell said property, increased in value to the extent of about 9% overnight at the Brexit vote.

Anyone who exchanged £100,000 into Euro's on the 27 June would on the 29th have recouped in the region of £109,000 on the 29th if they exchange back to Sterling.

9,000 Euro or a clear 9% NET profit for about 10 minutes work.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 03:42 AM

"The UK gives more in international aid than any other developed country apart from the United State"
Recommended reading
AID AS IMPERIALISM
I don't know if it's still available, but it put the subject of aid to the Third World in context for me decades ago
There's enough of it
HERE
to dip into to find out how Aid works
Remarkable book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 07:53 AM

Jim,
I read the précis of "Aid as Imperialism". It's to do with the Americas, so not really germane to this discussion. It's also from 1971, so possibly a little out of date.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 16 - 01:58 PM

"It's to do with the Americas, so not really germane to this discussion. It's also from 1971, so possibly a little out of date."
Not true Nigel
AFRICA
EXPLOITATION
Can't clickie this one
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jun/14/aid-is-hardly-an-act-of-great-generosity-effectiveness
And this is before you consider our filling our shops with goods produced by slave labour
And to think we used to refer to these countries as "the white man's burden"
Some burden eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:12 AM

Best reason ever for Brexit - Anthony Charles Lynton Blair, the little Labour "piggy" who wanted to leave Downing Street and become President of the EU Council was on French Radio yesterday arguing that the UK could and should remain in the EU. Maybe Tone still has hopes eh?

Question for all those Labour Party Members. What was Anthony Charles Lynton Blair worth when he became Prime Minister, his net worth is now somewhere in the order of ~£26.4 million?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:49 AM

Well said Mr T...and I notice the pound is well on the way to recovery, last months PMI figures are the best for 25 years.
All accompanied by deafening silence from our merchants of doom :0)

Do you think they will have the balls to admit they were simply wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:06 AM

Instead we got a racist for foreign secretary - that'll keep all those be-turbanned darkies out, which was the object of the exercise
Pity about the job opportunities though!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:09 AM

The pound is still trading at about 10% less then it's pre-brexit level.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM

So another Brexit LIE unravelling. What did they say remaining in the EU puts us at risk of TTIP.

Who was pushing for EU to adopt TTIP - UK white British. What is happening now that UK white British are less involved - EU are pulling back from TTIP.   What did Davis announcement his plans? To accelerate TTIP. Last time I looked, he was white British.

If we are forced to exit EU MUST punish the UK and bring it to its knees until May and Fagarse crawls on their hands and knees and grovel and beg for reinstatment.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM

"Do you think they will have the balls to admit they were simply wrong"

It's way too early to say whether things are working out for better our worse. For foreign folk living here, no doubt it's worse as racist incidents have risen, a man is dead and it's beginning to feel like the 1970's again. For science, it's worse as we feel the disconnect from the EU in being manifested in terms of collaboration with our European colleagues.

This gloating is all in rather poor taste. You won, now you need to get in with sorting it out so everyone is better off. Start with the £350 million to the NHS you promised us and let's take it from there.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:36 AM

It's way too early to say whether things are working out for better our worse.

Yes, but some of the scaremongering about an immediate economic crisis (IMF, Treasury)HAVE been proved wrong already.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:01 AM

SPB-Cooperator - 02 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM - Rather a "racist" post, but there have been a couple, yours with your "UK White British" and Jom "The Infallible" with his reference to "be-turbaned darkies" - shame on the pair of you.

Tell us all SPB-Cooperator what magnificent international trade deals has the EU negotiated in the last 20 years? Find that out then compare the EU's performance to that of City State Singapore's track record and that of a small/medium sized country like Switzerland, both of whom have run circles round the EU in this area, achieving five times the business that the EU has managed to drum up.

Stu - 02 Sep 16 - 05:09 AM - oh dear the sky is going to fall in on us again as all advancement and involvement in international science and technology projects will cease (NOT)

"Start with the £350 million to the NHS you promised us and let's take it from there."

What promise? And even if it were would we have to leave first? Or did your scientific education sort of just overlook that little detail? Talking of details, I'd have thought a man well versed in scientific research would have known the importance of attention to detail.

We pay more into the EU than we get out of it so by leaving and keeping VAT exactly where it is now we automatically gain that net amount that used to be paid to the EU. That money would then be available for other things - the NHS was an example, not a promise.

Elsewhere:

Unemployment down
Productivity and manufacturing up
FTSE up
Markit Manufacturing PMI data was released at 53.3 for August, far better than July's reading of 48.3 (The largest month on month increase the survey has seen in 25 years.)
The Pound has risen by 1.3% against the Dollar, and 0.9% against the Euro

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

So the pound has risen about 1% in the last day or so, yes you are quite correct.

Give me a shout when it reaches the level it was prior to the Brexit vote.

The truth of the matter is it has fallen by over 10% since then.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:14 AM

it can't be racist as I am White British myself

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:19 AM

The Brexit campaigners on several occasions said we should leave or risk having TTIP imposed on us. Sorry I haven't got the energy to trawl through 1000s of social media posting to find them, but if you don't want to take my word for it, then please feel free to look for them yourself.

If Brexiters are now saying TTIP is a good thing, then they need to inform everyone in the UK that they lied.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:21 AM

What difference does it make now? The British voted to leave the EU -- stop jawin' and get on with it or give it up.

Do you seriously believe anything you say or do here will change what will happen in Parliament or Whitehall? Or for that matter in Brussels or Strasbourg?

"Didcha hear about the Brexit Diet? You lose pounds and pounds in just a day!"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:25 AM

Funny thing about investment funds that obviously Rap and the "kipper" haven't cottoned on to.

UK investment funds have holdings all over the world - now tell me boys with this 10% (or %10 as Jom seems to prefer) drop in the value of Sterling have they made or lost money because of the Brexit vote? I'll put you out of your misery and save you a great deal of trouble - They made a bloody fortune out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM

"now tell me boys with this 10% (or %10 as Jom seems to prefer)"
Mor Mr Quelching, I see!
"I'll put you out of your misery and save you a great deal of trouble "
Pomposity with it
Two for the price of one.
But it's good to know the investors are OK - whew, was lying awake at night worrying about them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 11:10 AM

" The British voted to leave the EU -- stop jawing' and get on with it or give it up."

The day after Trump is elected and completes our journey to the dark side I'll post this very comment to thread a load of distressed yanks will moaning on ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 11:35 AM

27% of the UK voted to leave, 73% didn't - people under 18 who will bear the brunt of the decision had no vote such as not having the opportunities of freedom of movement. A colleague at work who was born in Netherlands but has lived in UK for 30 years had no vote.

The reason for the referendum was that the government used it for political convenience as they were worried that if they didn't promise it they would have lost power due to losing votes to the UKIP neo-fascist imbeciles.

Thirdly the exit campaign was centered around LIES. Therefore in my view, it has no legal standing apart from the view of nasty, rabid ****s like May, Johnson, Davis etc.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:26 PM

Dunno about legal standing, as the law can be an ass. It certainly has no moral standing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

A sore looser or what?

SPB-Cooperator wrote: 27% of the UK voted to leave, 73% didn't - people under 18 who will bear the brunt of the decision had no vote such as not having the opportunities of freedom of movement.

Perhaps it's a good lesson on how to lie with statistics. Of the total electorate 72% took the opportunity to vote. 52% voted leave and 48% voted remain. If 'remain' had won with the same difference you wouldn't be arguing about the figures.

SPB-Cooperator wrote: The reason for the referendum was that the government used it for political convenience as they were worried that if they didn't promise it they would have lost power due to losing votes to the UKIP neo-fascist imbeciles.

I agree with the first part of this but calling the people who voted for UKIP neo-fascist imbeciles shows how out of touch you are with the real word.

SPB-Cooperator wrote: Thirdly the exit campaign was centered around LIES. Therefore in my view, it has no legal standing apart from the view of nasty, rabid ****s like May, Johnson, Davis etc.

Both sides lied. If you only see the lies on one side you are not seeing the complete picture.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM

You're quite right - a close remain vote would have been far more valid than the close leave vote. Several things. First, you're asking the electorate to change a 40-year status quo, all on the whim of a Tory prime minister who was running scared of his own toxic right wing and of UKIP. The best interests of the UK were not his priority. Second, the campaign on both sides was never going to be an educational experience for the public. So it turned out, both sides stooping to packs of lies, and the real long-term consequences of leaving were never spelled out. The bar was set too low both for turnout (over a quarter of the registered electorate failed to vote) and for the result (in my view the threshold for levying should have been at least 60% of the registered electorate). Once we leave the decision is irrevocable. That would not have been the case had there been a narrow vote to remain, and you can bet your life there would have been further attempts down the road to get more referendums. We have allowed less than 38% of the electorate to make a irrevocable decision based on fear and ignorance. That isn't my idea of democracy in action.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:27 PM

Leaving

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM

Hi stanron

I completely agree with all your points.

Everybody knew the rules of the game and how the decision would be arrived at.

The majority of people who voted did so to leave.

People could not be bothered to vote in my mind agreed to leave the result to those of us who cared. So manipulation of the statistics is meaningless now the vote has been made.

I certainly agree that there would be a completely different attitude had the result been the other way round.

We should stop all the arguments and get on with getting the job done.

Cheer

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:02 PM

If remain had won, Fagarse and his obnoxioous voters would be bleating on even more. Who were the idiots who were prepared to make accusations that the vote was rigged? LEAVERS Who were bleating on about voters needing to take Biros to the polling station? LEAVERSD. Who do not give a toss about how many peopples ;ives they have ****ed up LEAVERS.   So when are you leavers going to compensate the rest of the country for all the detrimental effects????? Why do farmers (but ensure that farm labourers are paid proper saleries) think they should be entitled to a single penny of tax payers money in lieu of CAP, surely it is better to force land owner to work for £72/week on workfare to make sure that the food supplies are not interrupted.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 03:23 PM

Except it is not a game, it is real grown up politic which has not been taken seriously by those who have taken the 'I've benefitted for the last 40 years and don't give a toss about anyone thing whatsoever about how the EU works. I am happy for those to have their sense of self-righteous satisfaction, as long as they, and only they pay the price.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 04:47 PM

the whines and moans are all about a "liberal" fantasy taking a big hit.....nothing to do with left or right real politics.

I don't believe for one minute that these guys care about the welfare of economic immigrants.....To them its all about ideology.....well guys its getting near the wire the backlash is happening all over the world......the "good times" lasted too long .......get used to it!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:13 PM

a "liberal" fantasy taking a big hit

Ake, reality has a liberal bias.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 05:51 PM

Jim Carroll - 02 Sep 16 - 10:35 AM - Nothing whatsoever to say then Jom? Just the empty beating of your gums.

SPB-Cooperator - 02 Sep 16 - 11:35 AM

"27% of the UK voted to leave, 73% didn't"

Do you actually believe that ill-informed, incorrect and idiotic CRAP - the population of the UK is what SPB-Cooperator? 65 million - who is allowed to vote in elections and referenda SPB-Cooperator? Something like 46 million so only 71% of the UK is entitled to vote so your figures if you actually want to see them are as follows:

28.64% of the population of the UK were not entitled to vote
100% of the electorate of the UK {71% of the population} were entitled to vote and were free to vote
19.82% of the population of the UK couldn't be arsed to vote
26.77% of the population of the UK voted to leave the EU
24.77% of the population of the UK voted to remain in the EU


People under 18 do not have a vote in UK Referenda

The referendum concerned the electorate of the UK not the electorate of the EU. If I was working in the Netherlands {Which I have} and they held a referendum I would not be allowed to vote in it, nor would I expect to be allowed a vote.

"The reason for the referendum was that" the Conservatives had promised the electorate of the United Kingdom a referendum on EU membership during the General Election of 2010. They could not honour that promise as it had to be abandoned at the insistence of the Liberal-Democrat Party as part of the price of forming a coalition government. The promise was made again as part of the 2015 General Election campaign and the Conservative Government honoured their pledge to the electorate of the United Kingdom.

"The exit campaign was centered around LIES."

WHAT??? Only the exit campaign was centred around lies?? I think that the "remain" campaign was loaded with lies and proven unfounded alarmist crap. Politicians when they are trying to sell their brand of snake oil to the electorate ALWAYS lie - if you do not know that by now then you are astonishingly naïve. What you THINK has no legal standing is irrelevant and immaterial - Here are the figures that matter:

Voter Turn Out - 72.2%
Votes to Leave - 17,410,742 (51.9% of the electorate who could be arsed to vote)
Votes to Remain - 16,141,241 (48.1% of the electorate who could be arsed to vote)

Result: The electorate of the UK who could be arsed to vote in the EU Referendum elected to LEAVE the EU

Steve Shaw - 02 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM - A lesser voter turn-out kept us in in 1975 - no complaints then.

MikeL2 - 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM

"People could not be bothered to vote in my mind agreed to leave the result to those of us who cared. So manipulation of the statistics is meaningless now the vote has been made.

I certainly agree that there would be a completely different attitude had the result been the other way round.

We should stop all the arguments and get on with getting the job done."

Well said - no truer words ever spoken.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:08 PM

Excuse me, Woodcock. I have already told you that I did not approve of the 1975 referendum either. How many times do I have to tell you, cloth-ears?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:25 PM

By the way, Wooders, thanks for the numbers that actually make things look even worse than they were. The statistic that matters is not the percentage of the population but the percentage of the electorate, around 38% of whom voted leave. Still looks shite put that way, eh? I'm just wondering what you'd say if some massive public sector strike ballot gave a similar result with the strike going ahead. Hmm...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:32 PM

Steve Shaw - 02 Sep 16 - 06:08 PM

You're using your "tell" that lets me know that I am really niggling you Shaw. It matters not a flying f**k what you approve or disapprove of, no-one apart from yourself is even remotely interested in what your idea of democracy is, your are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to ram it down the throats of anybody else. But just for the record do not for one second complain about a voter turn-out of 72.2% that takes us out of the EU, without an equal complaint about a voter turn-out of 67.7% that kept us in the EU. Your complaint about the former logically means that we should never have stayed in in the first place.

"Once we leave the decision is irrevocable." - NOT TRUE - We can resubmit an application to join the EU at any point in the future. If we do, we accept ever closer political integration and we accept the Euro as our currency. Watch what will happen in the EU in the next few years, we may be the first major country to leave the EU, we most certainly will not be the last.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 06:38 PM

By the bye Shaw what MikeL2 - 02 Sep 16 - 02:58 PM is what actually counts.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 07:14 PM

Have another two pints, Woodcock, then turn in. You're raving.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 02:13 AM

Don't think so Shaw, you are obviously not that great a fan of the bare truth and, as pointed out, thankfully you neither direct nor dictate things to anybody on this forum, like everyone else you can only state your opinion, which in your case is the repetition of ideological twaddle, delivered poorly without logic or reason. Take it that you have not read the post-referendum reports - "Britain is Booming".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:07 AM

"UK investment funds have holdings all over the world - now tell me boys with this 10% (or %10 as Jom seems to prefer) drop in the value of Sterling have they made or lost money because of the Brexit vote? I'll put you out of your misery and save you a great deal of trouble - They made a bloody fortune out of it"

Well aware of this, I did pretty well myself thank you very much.

Doesn't mean to say that the country as a whole will benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 03:49 AM

"Nothing whatsoever to say then Jom? Just the empty beating of your gums."
Still talking down to people
I'd have thought your recent foot-n-mouths would have taught you a lesson - obviously not!
Bullying, blustering, bullshit appears to still be your guide.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 04:39 AM

Still nothing to say then Jom?

Whaz up waiting for your script?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:05 AM

"Still nothing to say then Jom?"
About what exactly?
Ive put my position and have linked to everything I've put - you have saidd nothing and linked nothing
I think it's about time you asked yourself that question.
Wan't me to link you to your "unspecified ammunition" statement which exposes your dishonest arguments
Happy to do that, if you wish.
"The ammunition (unspecified as to type) (Homs horror GUEST,Teribus - Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM)
THere you go - always happy to oblige
You never learn do you, belligerent and arrogant bullying only puts you where you are in the pecking order - pretty near the bottom.
Now - why not try something that's not couched in insecure belligerence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:25 AM

Ehmmm Carroll it probably was unspecified at that time {16 Feb 12 - 12:29 AM} - That does not mean to say that later the specifics did become known.

But tell me Jom what ammunition would be available for sale in the UK, and why would they be selling it?

1: The "Brits" would not make, store or stockpile ammunition that would be suitable for Russian/Soviet weapons.

2: Standard NATO rifle ammunition for all European members of the alliance would be 7.62x51mm - it is also used in NATO LMGs

3: The UK changed their standard infantry weapon from the L1A1 SLR firing 7.62x51mm round to the HK SA80 A2 L85 Assault Rifle firing a 5.56×45mm round, the other European members of NATO stayed with 7.62x51mm - So which NATO country would have an over-abundance of Standard NATO 7.62x51mm ammunition going for sale on the cheap Jom? (Actually bought some of it myself - very cheap practice rounds)

By the way Jom thanks for the PM - as a spit-flecked rant it is quite an amusing bit of pointless froth - any time I want a good laugh I dare say I'll open it up and read it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:40 AM

"That does not mean to say that later the specifics did become known."
Then 'you'll be able to produce them, won't you?
Finished with this one Woodie - it has no place here.
Just put it up to show what you're made of.
Still abuse instead of answers - font color=red. AND STILL NO LINKS TO ANYTHING YOU CLAIM.
More examples of your chosen make-up
Have a good rally now, d'y hear?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 16 - 06:59 AM

"I don't believe for one minute that these guys care about the welfare of economic immigrants"

Therein lies the difference between people to whom compassion and the common good is important and those to whom self is more important. Unfortunately, personal incredulity makes for a poor argument and the fact anyone doesn't believe this makes little difference.



"Talking of details, I'd have thought a man well versed in scientific research would have known the importance of attention to detail."

I'm flattered T, you old rogue! But the promise about the £350m was plastered on the side of the Leave battle bus and was part of the deception.

See: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/27/heres-all-the-leave-campaigners-whove-backtracked-

Of course IDS, Grayling and the other Brexit slugs all now say that it was never promise etc etc, but that merely shows their utter contempt for the public. Of course both sides lied and the whole referendum was a farce, but now the Brexiteers have to sort the mess out.

Get on with it kiddos!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 04:10 AM

Re: your link Stu. No promise there, merely a suggested alternative of what to do with the net amount of money we pay into the EU. If that was a promise it would not be written as "Let's fund our NHS instead", it would have been written "We will fund our NHS instead".

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 04:35 AM

Sematics, and we all know it. The inference is crystal clear and is dishonest in intent; heck even the £350 million was a lie and everyone knew it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM

If every one knew it was a lie, how could it be a promise? Not just semantics, logic.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:39 AM

So much of both campaigns was dishonest in intent. The whole thing was an undemocratic shambles. There's a damn sight more to democracy than sticking a pencil in someone's hand in a polling booth.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:58 AM

Leave [ ]

Remain [ ]

Boaty McBoatface [ ]

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:58 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: There's a damn sight more to democracy than sticking a pencil in someone's hand in a polling booth.

This is an attitude that gets all my alarm bells ringing. It's only one step away from saying that only the intelligent should be allowed to vote. Or only people who think like me should be able to vote, or only people in my party should be allowed to vote.

Or "Kill the opposition"!

Ding dong.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:22 AM

What rubbish. You want the whole population to make an irrevocable decision on an extremely complex matter that will affect the country for many decades (including - especially including - people who are too young to vote). That was a bad choice to begin with, all the worse because that choice was made by Cameron for all the wrong reasons. The very least that should have happened was a huge education programme. Well pigs might fly. With politicians on two opposing sides that was simply never going to happen. The country was peddled lies from both sides and the thresholds for turnout and voting outcome were set way too low. Just over one third of those eligible to vote are dragging us out of the EU. Unconscionable. Indefensible. And lopsided, in that one choice put before the public was irrevocable whereas the other was reversible. That in itself is a damn good reason why those thresholds were set all wrong.

Yes it went your way, smug Stanron, and not mine. That is no reason to question my democratic credentials. In fact, as you are ignoring all the points I've made, every one of which is in criticism of the democratic deficit surrounding the referendum, I'd say that your credentials are far more suspect. And I haven't forgotten the blatant racism peddled by your side. Do I take it that you implicitly approve of it?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:41 AM

It is a shame that the serious issues that the thread raised has been largely hijacked by a few pursuing personal vendettas.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:49 AM

Cameron's referendum? IIRC this EU Referendum goes back to the attempted introduction of the Treaty of Lisbon - a Treaty that made major changes to the previous treaties that governed how the EU was run. Gordon Brown hinted that acceptance of this treaty would depend upon a referendum in the UK = that referendum did not happen because two other European countries who were members of the EU got in ahead of us and rejected the Treaty of Lisbon. The EU elite then went into a huddle and by some back-door dealing managed to get the treaty in through some technicality or other. Cameron promised the British electorate a referendum on Europe as part of the Conservative Manifesto in 2010. That didn't happen because the Lib-Dems vetoed it when they formed the Coalition Government. The same promise was made for the 2015 General Election which the Conservatives won and the promise to hold the EU Referendum was kept.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:50 AM

Well there you go. In this robust part of the world you tend to defend yourself when you think someone isn't being very nice about you. I've contributed my opinions with fairly close arguments in this thread, only to be accused of being undemocratic. I'm fine with that, but having it back at the perpetrator is hardly pursuing a vendetta.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 AM

Cameron, stupidly, made himself a hostage to fortune. Politicians routinely quietly drop rash promises (such as the Tory one about cutting immigration to the tens of thousands and the LibDems one about tuition fees). The reasons he couldn't drop the referendum one were that he was avoiding a fatal split in his party and that he was running scared of UKIP. On both counts he had lost control. Worse, he was certain he was going to win it. Now look where we are. He's been a bloody idiot about this and whatever "legacy" he thinks he's got is totally shot.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:03 AM

"If every one knew it was a lie, how could it be a promise?"

Seriously? The fact that Brexiteers repeated the lie time and again in the hope of fooling some of the people, which they did. Even arch-right winger John Redwood did an excruciating interview where he had to repeat the lie through gritted teeth and some considerable embarrassment; it was hilarious. Of course, the likes of Gove and Johnson are accomplished bullshitters so had no issue with being barefaced liars.

It's worth remembering that anyone who voted tory in the last general election also bears some responsibility for Brexit; they voted in favour of holding the referendum after all. Neither of the campaigns were well-run or treated the people with any respect and was a new low for British politics.

But.. we're heading out so all we can do is try to hold the Brexiteers feet to the fire, guard against the xenophobia they've whipped up and make sure they do their job in getting us out as painlessly as possible.

It'll all be a waste of time; we'll stay in the single market and keep the free movement of people.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

Well who'd have thought it.

Thatcher 'would not
have supported Brexit'

Margaret Thatcher would never have supported Brexit or the holding of an in/out referendum, her longest-serving and most trusted former foreign policy adviser has told the Observer.
Lord Powell of Bayswater, who was at Thatcher's side during her most epic confrontations with Brussels during the 1980s, said the Eurosceptic former prime minister would always have preferred to battle the EU from within, whatever the scale of her frustrations, rather than opening the door to exit.
"Of course she got fed up with it, but I don't believe that as prime minister she would ever have campaigned to take Britain out of Europe or had a referendum to allow that to happen," he said. "She wanted to change Europe and she set out to change it with great vigour, but I don't believe she would have chosen this way and she would have avoided getting trapped by the referendum promise.
"She never had any truck with referendums and frequently spoke out against them."....

...Powell added that he was "pole-axed" by the vote to leave on 23 June, which he regarded as a huge backwards step.
Referring to David Cameron's decision to hold a referendum, he said: "It was a terrible misjudgment and miscalculation. I would have preferred us to stay in and continue to work for change in Europe, which was beginning to happen at a faster pace."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 08:19 AM

I concur with that prediction, Stu. One thing's for sure, which has been clear from the outset: we do not get to be in the single market unless we leave our borders open. Any concession made in that direction would very likely spell the end of the EU. Anyone for WWIII?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 09:30 AM

The campaign in my local constituency was base upon honest discussion on people's doorsteps, for instance the preference of mutual benefit through cooperation, as opposed to isolationist self-interest.   Don't kid yourself that any future trade deals with economic powers outside EU will have the interests of workers at heart. What is worst is that we will no longer be paying our fair share towards the cohesion structural development of those less developed economies that did not have the advantage of profits from the slave trade to fast track their wealth. Because of this the EU has a moral duty to apply the most punitive tariffs possible in order to recoup the contribution, irrespective of how many people in the UK are reduced to abject poverty. it would be the democratic decision of over half a billion Europeans - so   you won - get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:03 AM

only the intelligent should be allowed to vote

—'tis a consummation devoutly to be wish'd.

Otherwise, ya gets Trumped.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:28 AM

Trumped! Nice turn of phrase. Of course the only way he gets the big job is if more people see her as being even more flawed. In a way it could be down to which one has the most money. Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 11:33 AM

or better people should only be allowed to vote intelligently.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 01:09 PM

Well I think we should vote in general and local elections only. I want the politicians we elect to make the big decisions, then, if we think they've made the wrong ones, we can throw them out. So if Maggie Thatcher was opposed to referendums, I'm right with her. And savour that moment because you will never witness my saying anything remotely like that in my life ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:11 PM

For somebody to say today that Margaret Thatcher would have been opposed to Brexit is rather idiotic. Margaret Thatcher after all knew nothing of the Europe of 2016.

Changes:

1: The deal she had won for the United Kingdom no longer existed, Tony Blair had negotiated part of the UK's rebate away in exchange for reforms that never materialised - Margaret Thatcher would never have done that.

2: The Treaty of Lisbon was something that Margaret Thatcher would never have allowed to stand.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 03:40 PM

Well he knew her slightly better than you did. 😉

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:15 PM

Very true Shaw, I merely point out the differences, and the back-door way the Treaty of Lisbon was introduced. Also being part of the "establishment" Lord Powell of Bayswater, her longest-serving and most trusted former foreign policy adviser might have an agenda of his own that prompted him to state what he did - So far we have succeeded in changed nothing and managed to reform nothing of the EU's excesses by working from "within" - not even to the extent of them submitting balanced accounts that would tell people where all the money goes.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:19 PM

Er, so you think he may be a liar? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 05:29 PM

Of course the only way he gets the big job is if more people see her as being even more flawed

Not at all - Hillary aside, if enough unintelligent uneducated morons vote for The Trumpshit, bobs your uncle.

Then we're in deep Trumpshit - worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:21 PM

Lord Powell of Bayswater, diplomat, politician and businessman. Definitely part of the "establishment" and very well connected. He would say whatever was required to get what he wanted - Just like Corbyn, and we all know now that he IS a liar - don't we.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 PM

What lies has he told?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:22 AM

Something about having to sit on the floor because there were no seats available on a train he was travelling on.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM

Well may he burn in hell. Or will St Pete allow him a fair trial first?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM

Just for a bit of fun...... Brexit honesty, huh?

https://infacts.org/sun-article-perpetuates-metrication-myths/

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:07 AM

You beat me to it, SBS. All that EU dough promised for the NHS. Not happening. A LIE. An immigration points system promised, not happening. A LIE. More to come! Immigration down to the tens of thousands by now, promised by the woman who is now our hallowed leader. Never achievable and she knew it. A LIE. Then she lied about its having been a promise! Makes Jeremy's little train altercation look like nicking a tube of Smarties from Woollies, eh? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:10 AM

Steve Shaw - 05 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM - No idea and I couldn't care less - as long as he is there, there will never be another Labour Government. But you did ask:

Steve Shaw - 04 Sep 16 - 06:58 PM

"What lies has he told?"

I just supplied you with the information you requested.

SPB-Cooperator - 05 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM - Cash is pretty much spot on when he says:

"culture of traditional thinking on the subject of imperial measurements"

How long have we had the metric system now? Since 1980s? So over 30 years - Yet when I go down to the Pub I still go down there and order a Pint.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:21 AM

Yep. But try buying supermarket beer in pints, or wine, or lemonade, or orange juice. Our adopting the metric system has nothing to do with the EU. And, alongside those other lies, Jezza's lie (if it was one) is a peccadillo. Shame we weren't on that train, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 07:07 AM

Cash writes: "We have a complete culture of traditional thinking on the subject of imperial measurements and yet metric was just imposed on us." But it was actually our own government that supported metrication in 1965 after appeals from several industries, albeit on a voluntary basis.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 09:12 AM

"Something about having to sit on the floor because there were no seats available on a train he was travelling on."
If that's the most heinous sin he's guilty of, we'll be extremely lucky to get a major political leader with such a stainless character, especially as it is Virgin's statede policy to fill its trains to the point where they can't move.
Jim Carroll
POLITICAL LIARS

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 10:12 AM

" And, alongside those other lies, Jezza's lie (if it was one) is a peccadillo."

Still a lie though, and further evidence of the contempt most of Westminster seems to hold us all in.


"Yet when I go down to the Pub I still go down there and order a Pint."

Do you still pay of it in groats or barter spears for it? Things move on. SI units are in metric and everyone understands them except for a few old fuddy duddies. As for beer, the Americans sell it in glasses sized by ounces, the europeans in litres, etc and it still tastes the same regardless.

All that said, I do think a pint of beer is just the right amount.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM

If this was racially motivated, this alone in my book invalidates the whole referendum in spite of what the article says towards the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/05/death-arkadiusz-jozwik-post-referendum-racism-xenophobes-brexit-vote?CMP=f

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 11:30 AM

"Still a lie though,"
True, to a point (if it is), but there's a bit of a difference between "being economical with the truth" in order to expose a wider truth and just lying to totally distort the facts, as happens at every election-time.
One certainly does indicate contempt, I don't believe the other does.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:16 PM

David Davis has been in the commons talking about Brexit. It seems they still have no idea what this means, how they are going to do it and if we will stay in the single market, which he says we don't need to do.

We're going to get hauled over the coals in trade deals by the likes of India and China, who will now be able to out innovate, out develop and control much technical innovation (especially renewable energy technologies which are the future) us on all fronts. We're already in hock to a totalitarian regime in China that now seeks to own our means of producing energy, with all the issues that raises in terms of independence and security.

These countries will make mincemeat of us.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM

That's right Stu - The sky is falling - enjoy!!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM

One of the more disturbing features has been the sharp rise in racist incidents since the referendum.
"Almost 6,200 hate crimes have been reported in Britain over the month since the June 23 referendum, which saw immigration become a key issue during a bitter and deeply divisive campaign."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:32 PM

We don't need the single market if we are not bothered about the inflationary effect on import tariffs for goods we consume on a daily basis, or if we are not bothered about the inflationary effect on import tariffs related to supply-chain components. It would most likely hurt those on low incomes, people with disabilities, people on other benefits etc etc. But people who wanted Brexit won, so they should just live with it??????

And with regards to supply chains - will multinational companies really want to pay higher production costs because of import tariffs, or would it make more sense to move 100% of production to a trading area without internal tariffs?

If production is moved elsewhere in Europe, how does Davis plan to force the relevant countries to accept free movement of workers from the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 12:47 PM

No one has yet answered the question on the morality of reliance on cheap immigrant labour to drive our economy?

The moral question is, who is to service the Polish and Romanian economies, and maintain the infrastructure in these countries and others in Eastern Europe.

Reliance on immigrant labour means our own people will not receive adequate training to do the jobs which require doing and are going to be parked on benefits for life......is that moral?

You complain about British Colonialism yet have no scruples about exploiting foreign workers to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed.......The hypocrisy of the "liberal left" writ large.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM

"No one has yet answered the question on the morality of reliance on cheap immigrant labour to drive our economy?"
Yes they have - interminably
!Reliance on immigrant labour means our own people will not receive adequate training to do the jobs which require doing and are going to be parked on benefits for life."
Not true - the types of work taken on by these people is that which largely need no training
A moot point anyway - apprenticeships in Britain are largely a thing of the past.
"You complain about British Colonialism "
British colonialism was a form of politico/economic exploitation forced on nations without their being consulted - largely by force of arms
Your scaremongering and misinformation is exactly the type of hate-mongering that directly causes the rise in hate crimes - which you have yet to respond to.
Brexit was pushed through on a racist ticket - as evidenced here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 05:24 PM

Labour is "cheap" because BRITISH employers pay immigrants low wages. Immigrant workers do not demand low wages. No-one in work ever demanded to be paid as little as possible. They get what they are given by BRITISH employers. They have no choice. As very few immigrants claim benefits, there can be no complaint against them. Paying wages as low as possible to people who have no choice has a name. We call it capitalism.

The facts about Corbyn's train ride have yet to be cast in stone, Stu. If he did lie, which is in doubt, the lie pales beside the lies told to us by the brexiteers. We cannot "control our borders" whilst being in the single market. We will not get a points system, which we were promised. We will not get hundreds of millions of rescued EU money pumped into the NHS, as we were promised. Going back just a little, tuition fees WERE trebled, weren't they, Nick Clegg? Immigration was NOT reduced to the "tens of thousands", in spite of the fact that over half of the immigration that Theresa May "failed to control" had absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU. Going back even further, Saddam did NOT have WMDs that could be activated within 45 minutes. And yer man DID have sex with "that woman" and he did inhale. If you really want to conclude that Jezza was really lying, then put that alleged lie into the context of real political lies. And don't forget the lies that the imbecilic David Davies was telling the Commons today.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Sep 16 - 06:18 PM

"All that said, I do think a pint of beer is just the right amount."

With the caveat "per 45 minutes," I presume...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:01 AM

Only on a slow day!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:02 AM

SPB-Cooperator - 05 Sep 16 - 12:32 PM - Classic case of jumping fences before you even know they have been built, let alone before you actually come to them. But one thing we do know, we buy more from Europe than they buy from us, according to your little synopsis it would appear that only the UK gets hurt by the imposition of "tariffs" - that of course is patently ridiculous.

Jim Carroll - 05 Sep 16 - 01:35 PM - Uniformed generalisations and idiotic stereotypical misinformation.

"the types of work taken on by these people is that which largely need no training" - Any idea of the numbers of skilled tradesmen who have poured into Europe and the UK from Eastern Europe Jom?

"apprenticeships in Britain are largely a thing of the past." - Not strictly true Jom they are in the process of being reintroduced, so early days yet.

"British colonialism was a form of politico/economic exploitation forced on nations without their being consulted - largely by force of arms" - The British Empire was formed and based on trade not conquest - your "largely by force of arms" is a myth.

Steve Shaw - 05 Sep 16 - 05:24 PM

"Labour is "cheap" because BRITISH employers pay immigrants low wages." ..........."They get what they are given by BRITISH employers."

Are you 100% sure of that Shaw? No non-BRITISH agents or agencies in countries of origin, or in the UK?

"the lies told to us by the brexiteers"

"We cannot "control our borders" whilst being in the single market."

Not a lie Shaw, simply put we cannot control our borders while we are members of the EU, we do however have a say as to who comes in and who doesn't if we are independent of EU rules and regulations.

"We will not get a points system, which we were promised"

An "Australian type" point system was mentioned as a suggestion, not as a promise.

"We will not get hundreds of millions of rescued EU money pumped into the NHS, as we were promised."

No such promise was ever made.

"tuition fees WERE trebled, weren't they, Nick Clegg?"

Probably because they had to be Shaw. Parties in opposition can make whatever promises they like in order to convince the uniformed into voting for them. It is only when that political party is elected into office that reality hits home and they have to come up with workable solutions for real problems.

"Immigration was NOT reduced to the "tens of thousands", in spite of the fact that over half of the immigration that Theresa May "failed to control" had absolutely NOTHING to do with the EU."

Not quite as clear cut as you'd like to make us think Shaw. Two things combined to hinder any effort at controlling immigration:

1: Tony Blair and Labours "open door" policy, which even he admitted was a tremendous error.
2: Membership of the EU compels us to observe and obey "their" rules

We cannot even begin to address these problems until we have left the EU.

"Saddam did NOT have WMDs that could be activated within 45 minutes."

Irrelevant, the regime of Saddam Hussein and Iraq was not invaded in 2003 because they had WMD, they were invaded because they had failed to comply with the terms and conditions of the Safwan ceasefire agreement signed by Iraq and the Ba'ath regime in March 1991.

"If you really want to conclude that Jezza was really lying, then put that alleged lie into the context of real political lies."

Without a shadow of a doubt Jeremy Corbyn was caught in a very public manner lying about there being no seats on the train he was travelling on. All he succeeded in doing was to make himself look silly. You have given no examples of any "real political lies" apart form the one quite clearly told by Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:30 AM

We get more immigration from outside the EU than from the EU. No EU regulations cause that. Theresa May, in spite of the Tory promise, failed to address that, then she lied that it had been a promise. She knew all along that there was never any hope of cutting it to tens of thousands. A lie on top of a lie. A promise you know you can't keep is a lie. Clegg lied. The brexiteers lied about EU money diverting to the NHS. Johnson promised a points system. Not happening. Lies. Dress these things up with your cod explanations and excuses all you like. They are lies.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 04:46 AM

"That's right Stu - The sky is falling - enjoy!"

Heck T, you're the military man. You really want the Chinese government controlling our energy supply? You want them tapped into the national grid? To our control and logistics systems? You'd be happy with that?


"No such promise was ever made."

Er, I refer you to this sign behind Boris (note immigration promise too): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/05/keep-britain-in-eu-legal-c

And this sign seems quite clear: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/one-month-on-what-is-the-impact-

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:31 AM

"Lets give our NHS the £350 million the EU take every week"

Oh dear, but the Brexit campaign supporters on this forum say it was never a promise, it was only a suggestion ..............

It seems to me to be a clear, precise promise to increase spending on the NHS by £350 per week if a vote to leave was successful.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 05:50 AM

"We get more immigration from outside the EU than from the EU. No EU regulations cause that."

Depending upon who things are classified Shaw.

Any economic immigrant, or refugee, from outside the EU who manages to get into Europe and get registered can then under EU rules enter the UK. Once inside the country ECHR greatly limits what can be done to expel people from the country.

YOUR reading of the others makes them promises only IN YOUR OPINION - not in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 08:29 AM

In view of Stu's post and the photo of Boris, I'd say that you are in total denial, Teribus. If you make a promise that you know you won't be able to keep, or that is based on false information (such as the £350 million a week lie), or that you are not in any position to make, then you are lying. As for the immigration numbers, the Tories have had six years in which they have failed abysmally - ABYSMALLY - to address the promise they made. Around half of the immigration has NOTHING to do with EU rules, in spite of your convoluted excuses for the inability to control it (and they did PROMISE! Even if you're right, which I doubt, presumably they knew about the issues you mentioned when they made that promise. So, a promise they were in NO POSITION TO MAKE). The confident prediction from that, nay, a dead cert I'd say, is that immigration will be unaffected by Brexit, yet we're going to lose the single market. Considering that "controlling our borders" was arguably the point upon which the whole referendum turned, I'd say that is more than ironic. It's downright disreputable.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 09:50 AM

Only problem with all of that Shaw is that we, and they, are talking about things that are yet to happen, so to varying degrees of rationality everybody is crystal ball gazing. None are in a position to do anything other than make suggestions as to what might happen. So in reality there is nothing for me to be in denial about. If you think that promises were made then you are denying the fact that no money saved from us leaving the EU can be allocated until after we have left the EU which can only happen at the earliest sometime in 2020.

No the Tories have not had six years to sort out the immigration mess that the last Labour Government got us into, between 2010 and 2015 there was no Tory Government there was a Coalition Government - yet another fact that you are in denial about.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 10:11 AM

By the way, Teribus, the numbers of refugees or people granted asylum here (and they do have to be HERE before they can apply for asylum) are tiny compared with the overall immigration numbers, which makes your point virtually irrelevant. The term "economic migrant" is meaningless. Anyone moving to another country to better themselves is an economic migrant, which includes just about everyone who wants to come to live in the UK from anywhere. That includes my dentist (EU) and the bloke who carried out the surgery on my back (non-EU). As for refugees/asylum seekers, they are not exactly coming here in droves, are they? They do not provide anything like the adequate excuse for May's abysmal failure as Home Secretary to carry out Cameron's rash promise on immigration, made only as an election tactic because the Tories have to look "tough on immigration." It was an impossible-to-keep promise and they knew it. A lie. Then she lied about its being a promise!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 10:23 AM

It was a Tory prime minister and a Tory Home Secretary and there was no resistance from the LibDems to that promise, a long-standing, rock-solid Tory sentiment, being in the manifesto. We all know where the buck stops, except for you. And the £350 million per week was a lie and you know it. We don't have to wait until 2020 for that to be crystal clear. And we'll wait until kingdom come for Boris's points-system promise to come to fruition. Ain't gonna happen. It's on the poster behind him with an x in the box next to it. That means "Vote leave and you're voting for a points system." What the hell else was it supposed to mean? Now come along. I've admitted to the lies and scaremongering of the Remain side. Time for all you smug brexiteers to admit the same and confess that there was a massive democratic deficit surrounding the whole damn thing.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 11:45 AM

The 2010 General Election resulted in the UK being governed by a Coalition Government - YES or NO - simple enough question even for you Shaw.

Your earlier statement that:

"As for the immigration numbers, the Tories have had six years in which they have failed abysmally - ABYSMALLY - to address the promise they made."

Is incorrect. But as you seem fixated on governments that failed ABYSMALLY - shall we run through the things that Blair & Brown's Labour Government failed ABYSALLY at in the 13 years they had in office?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:20 PM

Cameron promised in JANUARY 2010 - before the coalition - to cut net immigration to the tens of thousands, no ifs, no buts. There would be a cap. No LibDem forced him to relinquish that pledge. Theresa May was responsible for carrying it out. It couldn't be done. They KNEW it couldn't be done. It was entirely a Tory election gambit, a deliberate lie, nothing to do with the LibDems, unmodified by the coalition arrangements. It's laughable that you are trying to divert the blame for the failure of the policy on to the coalition. Cameron and May are Tories to the core and did not change their spots just because a few Liberals were handed tokenistic roles.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Sep 16 - 12:24 PM

By the way, do carry on with the schoolyard comparisons with the other children who you claim are just as bad, which you seem to think lets the Tories off the hook. I hate to keep saying it, but it's no skin off my nose. I hold no candle for Blair and Brown and never did.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM

Cameron promised in JANUARY 2010

Tell me Shaw who was Prime Minister in JANUARY 2010 - certainly wasn't David Cameron was it.

David Cameron also promised a Referendum Vote on the UK's EU membership too prior to the General Election in May of 2010. That along with other items contained in the Conservative Party's Manifesto had to be abandoned as part of the price of forming the Coalition.

In forming the Coalition Government with the Liberal-Democrats agreements were made detailing "Coalition Policy" in the following areas:

1.1 Deficit
1.2 Spending
1.3 Tax
1.4 Banking
1.5 Immigration
1.6 Political reform
1.7 Pensions and welfare
1.8 Education
1.9 European Union
1.10 Civil liberties
1.11 Environment

On immigration, the shortest section of the agreement, it only stated that a cap on immigration should be set - thus ending Labour's open door uncontrolled immigration policy.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:21 AM

Sorry Tezza, you;re dead wrong on this. In 2010 Cameron pledged to cut immigration to the "tens of thousands", "no ifs, no buts". He said it was a promise:

"But with us, our borders will be under control and immigration will be at levels our country can manage. No ifs. No buts. That's a promise we made to the British people. And it's a promise we are keeping."

Full transcript here: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/14/david-cameron-immigration-speech

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: peregrina
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:37 AM

When did campaign pledges ever count--Once they did, but when did they stop being taken seriously?

Yup, keeping the campaign promise to hold the referendum will count as one of the rashest gestures of mega stupidity in recent history.

You have more consumer guarantees buying a hoover, or even a used car, than
voting for a political party or in a UK referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: JHW
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 05:47 AM

'Virgin's stated policy to fill its trains'

The other day I found easily a seat where the display thingy said Available
But - Notices stuck thereabouts stated that even apparently available seats could be booked 'onshore' and you might have to leave

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 07:55 AM

"Tell me Shaw who was Prime Minister in JANUARY 2010 "
He was leader of the Tory Party and in the position to make such promises for when they came into power, which they did a few months later
Jin Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 08:58 AM

You can make whatever promise you like in good faith when you are in opposition and responsible for S.F.A. Very different game when you actually have to do the job and are then faced with real problems that require you to come up with real and practicable solutions.

It was a Coalition Government that came to power a few months later not a Conservative Government - I think that is a fairly well documented fact.

Stu I see that in his speech he did refer to the introduction of the immigration caps I mentioned in my post. The fact that immigration proved impossible to control while inside the EU I would have thought would have been obvious for reasons I have already given.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 09:56 AM

Impossible to control for obvious reasons eh? In that case the promise was not made in good faith. If you say that you will control immigration when you know damn well that you can't you are telling a bare-faced lie in order to get yourself elected. It's called playing the race card. And the LibDems did not force any compromise on that stated promise. Even the Tories didn't blame them when the policy failed. They simply lied about it, saying that it had been an aspiration, not a "no ifs, no buts" promise. You are defending the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 16 - 11:27 AM

"You can make whatever promise you like in good faith when you are in opposition and responsible for S.F.A."
Which underlines the failings of our "democratic" system.
Basically, thinks haven't changed since we got "democracy" - that would be sometime in the first few decades of the 19th century, wouldn't it???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 01:54 AM

" you are telling a bare-faced lie in order to get yourself elected. It's called playing the race card"

No it is not Shaw it is called "electioneering" and every single candidate and every single party standing for election does it. The list of things promised by Blair and Brown in 1997 that they completely and utterly failed to deliver on would fill a book as thick as "War & Peace", the two greatest lies they told {according to your definition} related to education and the NHS. We have the mess we have related to immigration solely because of the policies they introduced {Blair even admitted it}.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 02:44 AM

"our" democratic system hasn't failed Jom - Communism did though didn't it - rather spectacularly if I remember it.

1000 up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:34 AM

Yes it's electioneering, but you can still play the race card. Right-wing parties in this country routinely appeal to the basest instincts of the electorate by making a big issue out of immigration. We are being swamped, taken over, acquiring ghettoes and no-go areas, having wages driven down, having our jobs taken off us, allowing them to put pressure on housing and to come here to live on benefits, to sexually abuse our children, hide behind burkas and breeding terrorists in our midsts and any other pack of lies politicians can get away with short of actually calling immigrants wogs, Pakis or niggers out loud. There are votes in it, Teribus, millions of 'em. Puts bums in polling booths. Immigration bad-mouthing is why we're coming out of the EU.

And I include Gordon "British jobs for British workers" Brown. He and his merry New Labour mob were on approximately the same point of the political spectrum as Maggie.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 04:42 AM

Anyway, what mess? I'm going to see my Czech dentist Hannah next week, the finest dentist I've ever had. Until she and several other dentists from the EU founded their practice a few years ago we couldn't get on an NHS list within fifty miles of here. Think I'll tell her what a right bloody mess she's got the country into.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 05:36 AM

That's right Shaw, Labour promised more doctors and more nurses for the NHS in the term of their first Parliament. There was only one way they could do that - by "poaching" doctors and nurses from elsewhere, thereby reducing medical cover from elsewhere.

Pete St. John's song "Rare Ould Times" has the following verse:

"And I courted Peggy Dignam, as pretty as you please
A rogue and child of Mary, from the rebel Liberties
I lost her to a student chap, with skin as black as coal
When he took her off to Birmingham, she took away my soul"

Any idea what that was about?

When Maggie stopped offering free university places in the UK for Commonwealth Students, Sean MacBride offered free places to medical students from Ghana in Trinity College Dublin to embarrass Thatcher, the UK and the Tories. When these Students qualified they realised that their qualifications would allow them to practice medicine in the UK - every single one of them lifted and shifted to work in the UK - not one newly qualified doctor went back to provide medical cover back in Ghana.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 06:30 AM

Stop diverting away from the issue. I have told you'd nauseam that I hold no candle for the New Labour scumbags (largely because they followed almost the exact same political path as your hero Thatcher - strange that you don't approve, really). The point you're too embarrassed to address is that the right in this country routinely use immigration as their vote-catching trump card. Racism and xenophobia dressed up in the obligatory politically-correct language of the day. It's about time you tried to honestly confront the wrongs of today instead of scurrying around constantly to find someone else who was just as bad or worse. In fact, it's very noticeable that that has become your modus operandi.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:15 AM

"It's about time you tried to honestly confront the wrongs of today"

Yes I think you should Shaw:

You are in complete denial that Labour have serious internal problems {By the way how many CLPs are still under suspension? - Can they hold meetings in Wallasey yet?}

You are in complete denial that the NHS is in trouble and has been for decades. Doesn't matter how much money gets thrown at it, it just seems to get worse while those responsible for reforms and administration just seem to get richer.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 08:35 AM

Doesn't matter how much money gets thrown at it

Sure as hell matters when funding cuts take money FROM it,tho - dunnit, T-zer?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:11 AM

Teribus, the Labour Party is a basket case. Of course it is. I've never denied the serious internal problems. I will deny scurrilous and unwarranted attacks and lies, of course, such as the ones about "antisemitism," generally led by a right-wing press and the pro-Israeli regime lobby. As for the NHS, I can't remember ever having got into a big debate about it, frankly. Do try to not make things up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 09:13 AM

Greg F. wrote: Sure as hell matters when funding cuts take money FROM it,tho - dunnit, T-zer?

'it' being the NHS I'd be interested to see specific, dated examples.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:02 AM

From the King's Fund, Jan 2016.
.
How does NHS spending compare with health spending internationally?

John Appleby
John Appleby
Chief Economist, Policy
20 January 2016
18 comments
In 2000, current spending on health care in the United Kingdom was 6.3 per cent of GDP, and the then Prime Minister Tony Blair committed his government to matching the average for health spending as a percentage of GDP in the 14 other countries of the European Union in 2000 (8.5 per cent) through increases in NHS spending.

Over the next few years spending on the NHS increased substantially, pushing total (public plus private) spending to 8.8 per cent of GDP by 2009. By then, however, the EU-14 spend (weighted for size of GDP and health spend, and minus the UK) had moved on to 10.1 per cent of GDP. Still, the gap between the UK and its European neighbours was closing.

Since then, however, the gap has started to widen (particularly against countries that weathered the global financial crisis better than the UK) and looks set to grow further. UK GDP is forecast to grow in real terms by around 15.2 per cent between 2014/15 and 2020/21. But on current plans UK public spending on the NHS will grow by much less: 5.2 per cent. This is equivalent to around £7 billion in real terms – increasing from £135 billion in 2014/15 to £142 billion in 2020/21. As a proportion of GDP it will fall to 6.6 per cent compared to 7.3 per cent in 2014/15. But, if spending kept pace with growth in the economy, by 2020/21 the UK NHS would be spending around £158 billion at today's prices – £16 billion more than planned.

Hey ho. What you get when you vote Tory. One thing you won't get is the PROMISED £350 million per week, promised by the brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 16 - 10:15 AM

" The fact that immigration proved impossible to control while inside the EU I would have thought would have been obvious for reasons I have already given."

So you knew this, but Cameron didn't when he made the speech? So he's as much a bare-faced liar as his Bullingdon buddies. I can never understand why anyone would give these people and ounce of respect.


"Communism did though didn't it - rather spectacularly if I remember it."

Communism has never been practiced, what happened in the so-called communist countries was the establishment of totalitarian and brutal regimes. But then anyone who knows his Marx and Engels knows that, don't they?

It'll be interesting to see if the government finally bend over and let China do it's thing at Hinkley Point. Odd that so many yell on about taking control back whilst being happy to cede some of our own to one of the most brutal regimes on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 10:32 AM

In 2000, current spending on health care in the United Kingdom was 6.3 per cent of GDP, and the then Prime Minister Tony Blair committed his government to matching the average for health spending as a percentage of GDP in the 14 other countries of the European Union in 2000 (8.5 per cent) through increases in NHS spending.

Over the next few years spending on the NHS increased substantially, pushing total (public plus private) spending to 8.8 per cent of GDP by 2009. By then, however, the EU-14 spend (weighted for size of GDP and health spend, and minus the UK) had moved on to 10.1 per cent of GDP. Still, the gap between the UK and its European neighbours was closing.

Since then, however, the gap has started to widen (particularly against countries that weathered the global financial crisis better than the UK) and looks set to grow further. UK GDP is forecast to grow in real terms by around 15.2 per cent between 2014/15 and 2020/21. But on current plans UK public spending on the NHS will grow by much less: 5.2 per cent. This is equivalent to around £7 billion in real terms – increasing from £135 billion in 2014/15 to £142 billion in 2020/21. As a proportion of GDP it will fall to 6.6 per cent compared to 7.3 per cent in 2014/15. But, if spending kept pace with growth in the economy, by 2020/21 the UK NHS would be spending around £158 billion at today's prices – £16 billion more than planned.
Failing to increase the NHS budget in line with an increase in GDP is not reducing NHS funding. But that may be too simplistic a comment for some to understand that it reflects reality.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:03 PM

So you don't think that spending on health care is a high enough priority for us to maintain it in proportion to the growing wealth of the country?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Sep 16 - 12:34 PM

Hell, just let'em die, Steve, let 'em die and reduce the surplus population. After all, its The American Way!!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 02:34 AM

To me, that last few posts are about presentation, rather than the underlying reality. I agree with Nigel to the extent that I don't think percentage of GDP is a particularly good way of deciding what your spend on the NHS should be. One reason is because if the GDP fell there should not be an automatic corresponding fall in the money going to the NHS. The one is a measure of how interested the world is in your product, the other a function of the population size and age distribution. I don't see an automatic link between those two. Indeed if the GDP fell but the NHS spending stayed constant then as a percentage of GDP we would appear to be spending more on the NHS even though in financial terms we were spending exactly the same.

On the other hand, if the country's GDP does rise so there is more money available to spend then it is certainly right to consider how much of that should go to the NHS, so as a broad brush I would expect a rising GDP to lead to a rising NHS spend, but not in any automatic fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 03:23 AM

It seems that Mr Trump may be correct in his assessment of Mr Putin's leadership credentials, as the US have just announced that they are to share security and work with Russia to defeat ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 03:26 AM

Sorry, wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:10 AM

As individuals, we make choices to better our lives as and when our individual means allow us to do so, for example if we are on low pay we may live on tins of beans, but as our income improves, we might extend that to a sunday roast with all the trimmings. When GDP increases then we makes choices to use that as an opportunity to improve rahter than just sustain health services - bring new treatments on line which may otherwise be too expensive. Those who oppose this are probably those who wold prefer the health service to diminish or be fit for their own purposes to facilitate reduced taxation.

That is also the argument that justifies the basis that determines whether a state is a net contributor to the EU budget - in order to work towards improvements in lives of all Europeans. To oppose this means taking an 'only what I want and **** the rest attitude'. Ah, someone who is les astute may say - why are we not prioritising those in need in our own country. Well,, says the astute person - because those who are without in this country are so not because we are helping others, or because we are a poor country, but being without is due purely to domestic economic and social policy.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 09:48 AM

Ake, for that BS there is no RIGHT thread.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 11:44 AM

Thing is, we still don't know what Brexit actually means. The Brexiteers don't know themselves, and I'll bet there will be some unholy rows between them when we finally find out as they won't all be happy little leavers.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 11:50 AM

Especially as it seems everything the leavers said was just a suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:22 PM

One thing and the most important thing that "Brexit" means, is an end to the "Free movement of labour" and all that it entails.

That is non negotiable.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 16 - 06:46 PM

and all that it entails

And what, precisely, does it entail???

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 01:58 AM

And again Greg yet another non-post.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 03:29 AM

You (and some others) may think that is non negotiable, ake, but we will have to see. I would not bet on it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 04:52 AM

"That is non negotiable."

Negotiable is exactly what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 05:02 AM

Neither was the poll tax negotiable - but after the riots it was withdrawn. Neither was the 1933 Enabling act in Germany negotiable, but this changed after a world war.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 07:55 AM

Dream on guys!

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

Could this be the end of Europe? who will benefit from that, Russia?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 08:48 AM

And commodity brokers, forex traders, etc who will be able to milk the resulting chaos and line there grubby pockets. Isn't there one particularly nasty grubby obnoxious commodity broker who is outspoken about not just exiting, but the breakup of the EU who would probably not hesitate to defecate on the 14 million people who were stupid enough to believe him if it proves to his advantage?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

People who fool themselves do not always fool others. (And isn't that a two edged sword?)

"Could this be the end of Europe? who will benefit from that, Russia? "

There is a difference between Europe and the European Union. We leave an inefficient, corrupt and undemocratic political union, not the continent or the people.

"And commodity brokers, forex traders, etc who will be able to milk the resulting chaos and line their grubby pockets. Isn't there one particularly nasty grubby obnoxious commodity broker who is outspoken about not just exiting, but the breakup of the EU who would probably not hesitate to defecate on the 14 million people who were stupid enough to believe him if it proves to his advantage? "

(Pause to wipe the spittle from the screen)

If this hate for those in the money markets comes from the 2008 world wide crash it is misinformed. Trace it back. Banks went broke. Bankers around the world bought leveraged bad debt. Banks in America found they had lots of bad debt from failed mortgages and wanted to get out from under. Banks in America were forced to give mortgages to people with poor credit ratings. Politicians in America sought political kudos by making home ownership more available.

Every one blames bankers but in reality they were the victims caught in the middle. We all got in debt, mortgages, credit cards and loans etc. Why don't we blame ourselves? Nah, let's blame the bankers instead. Of course the politicians are squeaky clean.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 10:57 AM

""It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes."


Certainly the general population/oysters bear some of the blame for taking on loans they couldnt afford. But in the end it was the walrus-bankers who ate them.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 11:05 AM

From Amber Rudd this morning:

"I can't tell you which portion of which area of immigration we're actually going to drive down more than the other," she said. "Because we're going to be entering into a negotiation with the European Union."

""I think that work permits certainly has value. But as I said, we're not ruling anything out at the moment.""

Hmmm... so the negotiating position possibly includes free movement... or anything else for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 03:52 PM

Bankers and traders are two different animals - bankers are in business to sell credit, traders are in business to manipulate markets, and if making short term gains is at the expense of damage to economies it is in their books, a price worth playing. And instability of markets yields the greatest profits.

Oh, I am not talking about libor fraud - I am talking about legitimate trading of commodities and currencies without any regulation around wider impact assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 04:48 PM

I'm not sure that traders are in business to manipulate markets. My take on it is that traders are trading to make profits. Buy something, sell something and at the end of that you are a few currency units up. If you aren't what's the point of trading?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Sep 16 - 07:14 PM

Stanron - 11 Sep 16 - 10:33 AM

You forget Stanron according to the "socialist" mantra - It is always someone else's fault - never their own

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 16 - 03:31 AM

"In politics and economics, Black Wednesday is 16 September 1992, when the British Conservative government was forced to withdraw the pound sterling from the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) after it was unable to keep the pound above its agreed lower limit in the ERM. George Soros, the most high-profile of the currency market speculators, made over £1 billion[1] in profit by short selling sterling."

All tbe rest of us paid the price - unit trust ISAs halved in value - at least one pension fund provider went to the wall.

But you must be right because of your well researched, carefully crafted slogan with the supporting empirical evidence clearly shown