BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 10:40 AM

There is a useful distinction to hold on to between nationalism and patriotism. That's why I prefer it if there's no blurring between the two. We can all dredge up past luminaries and present-day journalists who use words in colourful ways, which may be their job, but the bottom line is always that useful distinction for us mere mortals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 10:51 AM

Steve, if a word is used in a certain way by journalists and other people including the ones i have quoted, it takes on that meaning through usage.
you can carry on denying it, but it does not alter the fact that many people [including lots of journalists] use it in that particular way, and it means that through usage patriotism takes on a meaning through its usage as a word.
toilet is an example of another word that through its usage means a place where people shit and piss rather than just a washing place, its meaning gets altered through its usage, the correct term for a shitting and pissing room is a water closet, but people use the term toilet, so the word toilet through its usage means more than just a washing room.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 11:30 AM

If we are doing appeals to authority, let's do the hig one. From
Encyclopedia Britannica

"patriotism, feeling of attachment and commitment to a country, nation, or political community. Patriotism (love of country) and nationalism (loyalty to one’s nation) are often taken to be synonymous, yet patriotism has its origins some 2,000 years prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century"

Or better still, let's look at another way. What word means "a feeling of attachment and commitment to a country" without the feeling of superiority that nationalism brings about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 11:44 AM

I just noticed this too

"Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 02 Jul 22 - 03:55 AM

Dr Johnson imo was right, patriotism has been used to encourage people to fight other people in other countries, it has been used by political establishments to control ordinary people send them off to their death, examples first world war ,napoleon invading Russia."

I agree. patriotism has been used in this manner. As has religion and other things. This does not make it a bad thing in itself, it just means the people using it in this way are cynical manipulators of others. Just like journalists and, to a certain extent, many other writers.

What do you propose to do? Ban a love of one's land? As far as I am concerned people can be as religious or patriotic as they chose as long as they do not try to force their views on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:24 PM

Dave the gnome you are talking bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:45 PM

Sunak - gone, Javid - gone.

If johnson still insists on staying in power and finds sycophantic nodding donkeys to replace them, this country is f****d for the next decade.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 01:58 PM

Appeal to authority followed by ad hominem. 2 of the top 3 cardinal sins of debate! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:03 PM

As the guilty party at the start of this derailment of the thread:

* I love this country, but I don't need to shout it from the rooftops.

* I detest people who shout "love of country" from the rooftops as cover for trashing it.

Now, can we *please* get back to badmouthing politicians rather than each other? before this thread gets smothered in flame retardant. We must hang together, lest we all hang separately, an' all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:35 PM

They’re only resigning because they want Johnson’s job. Since 2019 they’ve been totally complicit in his entire shit-show…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:53 PM

A bunch of hateful shits who have suddenly decided they possess integrity, despite since 2019 relentlessly defending a man whom they knew from the beginnning was unfit to hold office.

Mark Gatiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 02:56 PM

Distancing themselves now and who could blame them. Trouble is, it would be better if Bozo was still there at election time. Hopefully he is deluded enough to think that everyone loves him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 03:20 PM

Both men are tainted by non-dom tax avoidance, in Sunak's case via his wife. If Boris Bunter goes, I don't think it will be either of those two.

Let's hear it for...


NADINE DORRIES!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 03:24 PM

Definitely the best option for Labour:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 03:35 PM

Steve Shaw! Go an sit on the naughty step. I will not hear such profanity. N***** D*****!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 04:00 PM

Ha! Nadine Dorries - a perfect example of what happens when the ventriloquist dies, but the dummy keeps talking…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 04:52 PM

here is an extract[ since it is forbidden to paste the whole article] from an article   On Patriotism
George Kateb • March 10, 2008 •
The brute fact of patriotism is made brute by the inveterate inclination in men to associate virility with the exertion involved in killing and risking death. No theory can ever defeat or discredit this inclination, which helps to engender the fantasy that the competition of political units is the highest kind of team sports. Men love teams, love to live in a world where they are called on to back or play for their team against other teams, even though the sport of war is soaked in blood. Socratic notions of gratitude or Jamesian notions of infinite indebtedness are not necessary for this love. In the sport, where aristocrats used to play their games, elites now mobilize groups or masses to slaughter each other. Men can become peace-loving for a while, but not forever. The women who love them encourage their inclination to see team sports as the essence of their masculinity, and to call patriotic this inclination when it is projected into politics. The pity is that men lend their energies to a state that sooner or later embarks on an inherently unjust imperialist career and thus gets constantly engaged in policies that are deliberated in secrecy, and sustained by secrecy and propaganda, and removed from meaningful public deliberation.
Patriotism is indispensable for sustaining this career of anti-democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 04:56 PM

It was well said by a wag in a Guardian comments section last week that the words "Dorries" and "culture" should never be permitted to exist in the same sentence. She's a joke on legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:02 PM

There's a whole litany of letters in today's Guardian (they're on the website) lamenting Starmer's lack of leadership. Here's an example which particularly chimes with me:

Labour’s Brexit policy is not pragmatic, it’s cowardly. Keir Starmer is so afraid of upsetting the “red wall” reactionaries that he surrenders to them. That isn’t leadership – it’s followership, and the country deserves much better from its main opposition party. If he can’t face rejoining the EU, he could at least propose the only pragmatic solution: rejoining the single market in order to alleviate the worst of the damage that Brexit has inflicted on our economy.
Dr Richard Carter
Putney, London

The last one wishes the Durham police well - and it's from a Labour supporter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:28 PM

Nazim Zahawi for Chancellor, eh? Another one being rewarded for his relentless litany of untruths and half-truths in defence of Johnson over the past three years.

God help the United Kingdom.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:28 PM

Hesletine summed up the cabinet and johnson nicely - minor limpets clinging on the a major limpet clinging onto a rock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:45 PM

Durham police and due to deliver their findings this week or next. Interesting times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:52 PM

So who’s the favourite to replace Starmer - bearing in mind that it needs to be someone who has at least a decent chance of delivering us a Labour government in 2024?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 05:55 PM

The solicitor general's just gone. It's gonna be lonely for anyone left sitting at the cabinet table.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jul 22 - 07:04 PM

Well all the big talk is Lisa Nandy vs Wes Streeting. Wes is Plastic Man, so out of the two I'd go for Lisa. Or Angela Rayner, whose star is in the ascendancy. Lisa went to my sister's convent school in Bury, so I could be a tad biased...

I think the day of the big-hitting grandee has gone. Unless you know different...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:24 AM

If Starmer goes due to the Durham drinks, Raynor may be in the same boat. Pity really as she would make mincemeat of Bozo! Could Long-Bailey have another try or has Starmer queered her pitch now?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:48 AM

It should also be remembered that being the Leader of Her Majesty’s Most Loyal Opposition is not the same job as being First Lord of the Treasury, Minister for the Civil Service and Prime Minister, and success in the former is no guarantee of success in the latter - Johnson being the obvious, perfect example.

So I’d suggest a more complete version of the question should be, “So who is in line to replace Starmer, bearing in mind that it needs to be someone who has at least a decent chance of delivering us a Labour government in 2024, and who has the qualities necessary for a successful Prime Ministership during the ensuing five years”?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:50 AM

why does the winkle always turn to the right because it belongs to pritti patel,
sorry if that puts you off your breakfast.
paddy power have johnson to be replaced this year 1 to ten on.
now if they were clever they would replace johnson with rory stewart, a genuine new face, however he would have to be found a seat first. i think labours best chance of winning the next election would be pritti patel as leader

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:53 AM

pritti as leader of the conservatives ,not leader of the labour party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:25 AM

The Guardian makes Penny bloody Mordaunt the favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 04:29 AM

Wonder where our resident Johnsonophiles are this morning. I expected at least a couple of them to be here telling us their pin-up boy is ‘a great bloke’, ‘on our side’, and ‘doing a great job’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 05:43 AM

I am a bit surprised Liz T has not resigned. If she has the intention of trying to become PM, Javid and Sunak resigning on principle (supposedly) enables them to say they could strike out on a new and better path. By saying (via aides, note) that she is 100% supportive of Johnson only leaves her the continuity role. That seems a gamble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:00 AM

lisa nandy seemes decent enough but has just said a lot of ill-informed nonsense about scotland. someone said rory stewart as leader (is he still a tory? he seems far too intelligent and decent) and maybe andy burnham for labour leader - i'm sure there will be a few winnable seats coming up soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:11 AM

> Durham police [are] due to deliver their findings this week or next.

So *that*'s what de Pfeffel is busy-waiting* on: if they say Starmer's broken the law, he'll do the honourable thing and go, and de Pfeffel will call a snap election while Labour are sorting out the succession. If not, the World King can demand another recount. The Durham constabulary really are on the horns of a dry lemon.

* Busy-waiting: a programming technique where the program does nothing but check a flag, waiting for it to be changed by some external event. Often thought to be an antipattern, ie a Bad Thing, as the processor can do nothing constructive while stuck in that loop.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:12 AM

Keir Starmer wants a snap election. He's only saying that because he knows there won't be one.

He hopes.

He'd lose.

Truss's star seems to have fallen. She's way down in the Grauniad's betting odds now. Mind you, she's such a charmless automaton, the ultimate boring Boris lackey (up to now anyway...), that she'd be an asset to Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 06:25 AM

To a man or woman, pete, all the Labourites say ill-informed things about Scotland. I suppose they're hoping that, one fine day, they'll start to win dozens of Scottish seats again, a pivotal thing if they're ever to win power. Pie in the bloody sky is that, at least for the foreseeable future.

Labour ought to be cleaning up here. Unfortunately, we have a useless leader at the moment. Where is he in all this?! I'm beginning to agree with that Guardian letter wishing the Durham cops God's speed...

I suppose PMQs today could be interesting, if only anyone took any notice of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 07:28 AM

Well I must say that I enjoyed Starmer's remark at PMQs that this fiasco is "the first instance of sinking ships fleeing the rat."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 07:57 AM

I wonder if Labour could find a safe seat for Mick Lynch? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 08:25 AM

Even Johnson seemed to find Starmer's line about "the charge of the lightweight brigade" funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:11 AM

Slight misquote from me there of the rats remark. That'll teach me to copy and paste from the Guardian. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:34 AM

”I wonder if Labour could find a safe seat for Mick Lynch? :-)”

Now wouldn’t THAT be something! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:40 AM

I see that Boris Bunter was burbling on about Labour and the "union barons" again today...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:47 AM

Hmmmm…there ARE no ‘Union barons’ nowadays - Johnson’s pin-up girl, The Beast of Grantham, and her subsequent acolytes saw to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 09:51 AM

On PMTs, Johnson seemed to be doing a very bad impersonation of WG Grace, claiming “Not out - people have come to see me be prime-minister, not you resign”!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:31 AM

PADDY POWER HAS THE BETTING ORDER THUS

Penny Mordaunt

Rishi Sunak

Sajid Javid

Liz Truss

Ben Wallace

Tom Tugendhat

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:35 AM

++

"I wonder if Labour could find a safe seat for Mick Lynch? :-)”

Now wouldn’t THAT be something! ;-)

++

As leader or just a MP?

He still believes that Brexit was the right thing even though the Tories did not get the right deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:44 AM

Leader would be good, Rain Dog, but MP would do. I disagree with him about Brexit but as that is now done and dusted someone should make the best job of it that they can. Maybe he would!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 10:51 AM

I note with interest and wry amusement that Sky News now has a scoreboard panel separate from the ticker, noting the current number of cabinet resignations, as if this were a game of rugby. "It's just gone up from 27 to 28," says Herself as I head for safety. (She watches the 24h news so I don't have to: I've more respect for my digestion. We call it knitting duty.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 11:08 AM

Hail from downstairs: "The BBC [News24] are showing a running total too now. Up to 31." Note to self: check whether the counts on the two rolling-news channels go up in sync.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 02:41 PM

The daft bugger's now threatening a general election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Jul 22 - 03:09 PM

Of course he is. It is a way of putting pressure on the minister not to act.

It has alway been about him.