BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 10:26 AM

Yes, Labour seem to be making a Big Thing about 'partygate'
But don't seem to know what to do about anything else (apart from supporting the government's moves)

Partygate is an ideal distraction for the Labour Party, and as it keeps getting 'kicked down the road' they can continue to make a big thing of it for months to come.
But at some point they may have to start suggesting what they would do about more important matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 11:08 AM

Nigel, if democracy is to work, there is little more important than the honesty of our politicians. I think the Labour Party is doing a splendid job just giving Bozo enough rope to hang himself and his sycophants. As they are in a minority opposition any suggestions they do make are purely academic at the moment. The full 2019 manifesto is still available. The next one will be available before the next election. Whatever else it contains, I am pretty sure that making politics honest again will be included.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 11:34 AM

Dave:
"The 2019 manifesto is available."
Is that the blueprint that we should believe still applies to the Labour Party? Jeremy Corbyn was the Labour Party leader at that time. Is it still an important document to the Labour Party?
And if it isn't, where is the replacement (for the manifesto)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 02:56 AM

Yes Nigel, the manifesto is still important. It was drawn up by the Labour Party, not by Jeremy Corbyn. There will be a new one for the next election but until then it is all we have to work on. The Tories have a massive overall majority. Anything that the Labour Party say or do can simply be shut down so complaining that they are ineffective is just deflecting focus from the failings of those in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 08:21 AM

Take back control but, err, not just yet (again).

From The Guardian

Rees-Mogg set to delay post-Brexit fresh food checks for fourth time

"The UK government is set to announce a fourth delay to physical checks on fresh food imported from the EU amid industry reports that neither technology nor infrastructure resources were ready for the July start of the next phase of Brexit.

The Brexit opportunities minister, Jacob Rees-Mogg, is expected to frame the move as use of the UK’s newfound independent powers to control the trade border since the departure from the EU and the single market."

And

"Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks have been operational in all EU countries with which the UK shares a border, including France, Belgium and Ireland, since the Brexit withdrawal agreement was implemented on 1 January 2021.

The cliff-edge approach left exporters of fish and other fresh food in chaos with a lack of customs agents and veterinary staff to certify whether the produce complied with EU standards. But in the UK post-Brexit checks on fresh food were not implemented for imports, being pushed back in 2020 and on two occasions in 2021.

Under the current border plan, physical checks on meat were due to start on 1 July and on dairy on 1 September, with all remaining foods including fish and composite foods to be subject to checks from 1 November."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 11:11 AM

All going so astonishingly well in those promised Sunlit Uplands, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 12:20 PM

You are missing that Rees-Mogg is declaring this as a Brexit benefit, Rain Dog. We are exercising our ability to control the border precisely by deciding not to do so.

That's Brexit!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 12:53 PM

Just heard an audio clip on PM (BBC Radio 4), of Rees Mogg saying something along the lines of "this is a benefit of free trade".

Of course we had free trade with the EU but then decided that we did not want that.

We are indeed living in strange times.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 03:01 PM

The UK government is set to announce a fourth delay to physical checks on fresh food imported from the EU amid industry reports that neither technology nor infrastructure resources were ready for the July start of the next phase of Brexit.

Of course, if you can trust the EU to be keeping its people safe, and many here seem to think the EU is a marvellous institution (and the sun shines out of . . .), then there is no risk in allowing imports from the EU.

Of course, EU supporters will wish to have it both ways.
1) The EU have much better systems than the UK
2) The UK have to protect themselves from imports from the EU.

It can't be both. Which do you prefer?

Honest answers are welcome (but not expected)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:10 PM

No, there is no contradiction, Nigel. All you have to do is recognise no system is perfect and like the horse meat scandal, there will always be people who want to beat the system if their might be a profit to be made.

(That was a success for the EU, by the way. As I say, there will always be cheats. But they were detected, then traced back to source and the offenders stopped. In the real world, that is successful crime detection.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 04:43 PM

"A success for the EU"?
Yes, they managed to sell UK & Ireland horsemeat labelled as Beef. According to The Guardian it had been going on since at least 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 05:34 PM

The EU did not do any such thing. Criminals did so and the EU detected it eventually and tracked it down.

People break laws. The EU detected it etc etc.
Not immediately, but that is true of lots of crimes, in the EU, the UK, the US...

In fact, everywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 22 - 02:14 PM

From The Guardian.

Jacob Rees-Mogg has given the game away

"But put all that aside for a moment and grasp the full meaning of Rees-Mogg’s admission. He and his fellow Brexiters once looked forward to these border checks, seeing them not merely as a price worth paying for leaving the EU but as a genuine benefit. Britain would at last be free to set its own food standards, superior to the EU’s. And yet now the minister admits that putting up barriers just makes food more expensive for British consumers and risks bankrupting British farmers: precisely the act of self-harm remainers always said it would be. The irony of hearing Rees-Mogg declare that “free trade is hugely advantageous to consumers” after he and his comrades pulled us out of the largest, most successful free trade bloc in the world – the European single market – would be funny if it weren’t so bitter."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 22 - 07:37 PM

Saw this in a comments section after a piece in the Guardian (I can't find it again so I might have misquoted it slightly), to do with the Tory MP who claimed that he'd accidentally accessed pornography whilst googling tractors:

"My wife has just left me for a tractor. When I got home I found she'd written me a John Deere letter."

A hundred upticks from me! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 22 - 06:10 PM

Time for some predictions!

In my ward, the Conservative Jaden Beaurain will win (What other party could be be?)
This is because there are four left of centre candidates against him? the the vote will be spilt so badly he gets through.

More generally? The Conservatives will lose seats and control of some councils, but will be able to claim "It is not as bad as we feared."

There will not be enough letters for a contest until more fines or Gray's report turns up, and maybe not then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 04 May 22 - 08:34 PM

Speaking of tractors, while googling tractor hubs I ended up on Pornhub and found that Putin is complaining that Russain porn is being boycotted in the US and Canada. What about the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 22 - 01:08 PM

Let's review my predictions.

The first I got wrong. In my ward, the Conservative Jaden Beaurain did not win; he was 300 votes behind the Labour candidate. The LibDem took a significant portion of the vote, but the other two left-of-centre parties did not.

My second prediction was that the Tories would say this was bad, but not as bad as the predicted and this has been quite widespread. I haven't yet seen a commentator think Labour performed better than moderately well.

My third prediction - about the numbers of letters - will need more time to see if it was right, but I still think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 22 - 03:29 PM

Best news I've heard for a long time - Labour loses control of Croydon Council!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 22 - 03:33 PM

And we have an elected Conservative Mayor!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 22 - 08:29 PM

Yebbut we all know that the only good thing about about Croydon is that there are plenty of buses and trains that leave town.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 22 - 05:05 PM

So, even if Starmer isn't fined, is he stuffed? The Labour Party needs this like a hole in the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 22 - 05:19 PM

I am.not sure, Steve. It seems a good ploy to me, given the Mail could have kept this on the boil for months. They still could, of course, but it will be harder.

"You cannot hope to bribe or twist,
Thank God, the British journalist.
But seeing what the man will do
Unbridled, there's no occasion to.'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 22 - 05:23 PM

* unbribed

Humbert Wolfe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 22 - 06:01 PM

The police response will be crucial. "There is insufficient evidence..." = fatal for Starmer. A bollocking but not a fine, he's belly-up. Unless they actually say that the accusation is vexatious, it will never go away. The gathering, held against an uncurtained downstairs window in the house of an MP late in the evening, for all to see, was an act of supreme idiocy. The Tories, the Mail and the Express must be rubbing their hands with glee.

But not Yvette Cooper, PLEASE...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 May 22 - 07:40 PM

Concerned that 944 tories in Hartlepool voted for a candidate who was convicted for wife-beating two weeks before the election. Says everything about tory voters, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 22 - 09:03 PM

Er, I think I got the "beergate" venue wrong. I had repeated what I'd read a few days ago in a report that contained the same error.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 22 - 04:44 PM

I suspect you are right, Steve, that anything other than a complete exoneration will lead to Starmer standing down. But a tactical measure I think leaving this uncertain will tempt the unwary Tory MPs to try to make him commit, which actually just makes Johnson's position look weaker. It has a cost of the media asking incessantly, but maybe they reckon the is a price worth paying to have the less attentive MPs calling for him to quit. Some are attempting the awkward balancing act saying no one should resign over the fines but if Starmer wishes to it is up to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 22 - 05:10 PM

Half of me says, please go, Starmer. The other half says, who else is there? Well it won't be a leftie, for sure. Lisa scrubs up well. She's very assured and she's a northerner. In fact, she went to the same school in Bury as my sis! We have to start thinking who could see Johnson off: the clunky, stodgy Starmer, fence-sitter in chief, naive walker into bear traps, is not the man. Mind you, that's half of me. The other half...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 22 - 01:57 AM

You should not read to much into a single day, especially after the state opening of Parliament, but "Beergate" is not on the front pages of the Daily Mail, even as a side panel to the main story, nor did I find it during a quick look at their online site.

A few more days should show whether they think pursuing this will do more harm than good for the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 22 - 01:22 PM

Well it's not anywhere near as easy to dig up much of substance about a single event as it is about multiple parties that WERE parties. However, it will come down to the police response. Anything other than a summary dismissing, as in "no case to answer," and the tabloids will be back. You can bet your life that they're digging like mad right now in a way they didn't over the Downing Street parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 22 - 02:05 PM

I'm piddling myself at the contortions that the Daily Heil hacks are going through to cast Starmer in a bad light on this. The latest is that his speech was a ploy to put the police under pressure to drop the charges. You can see where this is going. If there is no case to answer the right whingers will have it in for the Durham police for supporting Starmer. You really couldn't make this stuff up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 22 - 02:06 PM

Sad thing is of course is that half the population seem to swallow this shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 22 - 03:02 PM

Which is precisely why the tabloids won't drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 22 - 04:00 AM

I see that Blair has waded in with more right leaning comments.

From an article in the Guardian about a Blair foundation report -

"They thought Labour’s far-left economic policy was a bigger threat than Brexit.”

Without what he calls the “millstone” of Starmer’s predecessor, Jeremy Corbyn, Blair claims Labour can win many of these voters back

I think it just shows how far right politics has become. When did supporting the NHS, free education, nationalising utilities and helping the vulnerable become far left economic policies? Nye Bevan must be spinning in his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 22 - 05:51 AM

One of Corbyn's "millstones," apart from the mass media, was the determined and constant briefing against him by members of his own party. All those people who refused to serve in his shadow cabinet and who rarely missed a chance to berate him publicly. They did the Tories' job for them. It was unforgivable that the senior members of the party wouldn't at least publicly get behind the properly-elected party leader. It was transparently obvious what they were doing. I suppose that it'll be one of them who succeeds Starmer (the sooner the better). He was fence-sitter-in-chief with regard to Corbyn and the party's disastrous brexit shenanigans, but just look at how he's treated Corbyn and other good leftie people such as Becky Long-Bailey and Ken Livingstone since. Not a man of principle in m'humble, in spite of his posturing as such. He's all misplaced expediency and no substance. And I'm still a member!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 22 - 06:57 AM

Dave the Gnome:
You can see where this is going. If there is no case to answer the right whingers will have it in for the Durham police for supporting Starmer. You really couldn't make this stuff up.

And if he gets a fine the left will blame the Durham police for forcing him out of his post. It works both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 22 - 07:19 AM

He isn't of the left, Nigel. But I know what you mean. Actually, the real left would probably be glad to see the back of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 22 - 07:54 AM

When did you last see a left wing newspaper with the mass circulation of the Daily Heil Nigel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 May 22 - 09:19 AM

Sorry, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 May 22 - 11:41 AM

What’s The Difference Between Jack Monroe Suggesting Budget Recipes, And A Tory MP?

Should be compulsory reading for all Tory and Daily Heil apologists

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 22 - 07:19 PM

I'm a massive fan of Jack. She is straightforwardness and honesty personified.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 22 - 08:30 PM

So Boris Bunter has only been fined the once. The way some Tories are talking, you'd think that this "achievement" should be enough to see off the critics. "Time to move on to the important things that people are worried about." Well I think that the first prime minister in history to be convicted of an offence whilst in office, and who has lied in his teeth about it to the Commons and the country for many months, SHOULD be seen as an important thing that should worry us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 May 22 - 09:29 PM

Well I think that the first prime minister in history to be convicted of an offence whilst in office, and who has lied in his teeth about it to the Commons and the country for many months, SHOULD be seen as an important thing that should worry us.
I understood that whether he lied to the commons had yet to be decided upon by the privileges committee.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:04 AM

Of course he lied Nigel. It's what he does - https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

It will be interesting to see how he wriggles out of it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:49 AM

The spokesman for the SNP said this morning, that Johnson needs a short sharp shock, in my opinion a short sharp kick up the arse would be good for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:53 AM

I’ve reached the conclusion that those who try to defend Johnson in the face of all the indisputable evidence against him must breathe through their bottoms - there’s no way they could breathe through their noses, or even their mouths, with their heads buried so deep in the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 22 - 04:26 AM

However good Johnson may be at getting out of scrapes - and he has an undeniable talent for it - every MP will have to defend whatever stance they take on this and Gray's report come the election. That will worry them. The prospect that people may not raise it because they are more worried about rising inflation, particularly food and fuel, will not make them sleep much easier in their beds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 May 22 - 09:02 AM

Brilliant! Stanley Johnson, father of the criminal we have as a prime minister has sucessfully applied for French citizenship.



Link

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 22 - 05:59 PM

3199...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 May 22 - 07:48 PM

I’ve reached the conclusion that those who try to defend Johnson in the face of all the indisputable evidence against him must breathe through their bottoms - there’s no way they could breathe through their noses, or even their mouths, with their heads buried so deep in the sand.

People are not necessarily defending Johnson, but working on the basis that 'due process' must be observed.
There are too many here who would condemn him before the evidence has been viewed and decided upon.
Several have said "He's had one fine, there will be more, he should go now". No, it has stopped at one fine.
Others are saying "He lied to parliament about it". But they don't quote him. Yes he said "No rules were broken", but as part of a longer comment "I have been assured that nor rules were broken".
Can we at least wait for the privileges committee to look at this and make a decision?

All else is 'prejudice'. Check that for a definition if you need to.