Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 24 Sep 22 - 04:37 PM Kwarteng, who was educated at a good prep school, Eton and Cambridge, has argued that many supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement and critics of British imperialism have "a very kind of cartoon-like view" of the past, arguing: So within that time and geography there's a huge amount of variety, different cultures and different time periods and getting a sensitivity to that is hugely important and I think a lot of the debate around Black Lives Matter and imperialism or colonialism has a very kind of cartoon-like view of what was happening over centuries across a quarter of the world. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:02 PM You said it, Bonzo. He's been brought up in an entitled bubble and he doesn't understand anything about anything. His ideological tax project is doomed to failure - and I think you know it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:03 PM From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:55 PM Half of the tax cuts announced are going to the richest five percent of the population. Any background on that claim? Income tax (as a percentage) has been cut for everyone earning above the figure for 'non taxable allowances' |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:17 PM If you google "half the tax cuts go to the richest five percent" you'll get lots of backup for that, Nigel, including from the Resolution Foundation. Go for it! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:36 PM Perhaps contemplate this too from t/the Guardian editorial today: The Guardian view on the Tory trickle up policies: redistributing to the rich |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Sep 22 - 09:59 PM ”Income tax (as a percentage) has been cut for everyone earning above the figure for 'non taxable allowances'” The highest earners (£150,001 pa and above) will benefit from a reduction in the rate of tax of 6% - a reduction of 5% on the Addtional Tax Rate, and 1% on the Basic Rate. Those earning between £12,751 pa and £150,000 pa will benefit from a reduction of 1% on the Basic Rate. Those earning less than £12,751 will see no benefit at all. Do you really not perceive the gross inequity of giving the greatest benefit from tax cuts to those who need them the least, and nothing at all to those whose need is the greatest? Are you so blinded by Tory propaganda and dogma? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:13 AM I’ll try that again - typed in the middle of the night during a bout of insomnia. The brain was very tired but wouldn’t go to sleep! Would a Mod please delete my post of 24 Sep 22 - 09.59 PM above? The highest earners (£150,001 pa and above) will benefit from a reduction in the rate of tax of 5% on their earnings at Addtional Tax Rate, £150,001 and above, and 1% on earnings at the Basic Rate, £12,751 to £50,270. Those earning between £12,751 pa and £150,000 pa will benefit from a reduction of 1% on earnings at the Basic Rate, £12,571 to £50,270. Those earning less than £12,751 don’t pay tax, and they will see no benefit at all. During a Cost of Living crisis, and at a time when energy bills have doubled this year v. last year, do you really not perceive the gross inequity of giving the greatest benefit to those who need it the least, a lesser benefit to middle-earners, and nothing at all to those whose need is the greatest? Surely, even an inveterate nit-picker can see it, or are you so blinded by Tory dogma and propaganda that this inequity is lost on you? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Raggytash Date: 25 Sep 22 - 06:59 AM Surely if this government wants to be seen as a government of low taxation the most equitable way to lower tax is to raise the tax threshold. Although this will not benefit the very poor, more people would benefit if the tax threshold was raised from £12,751 to a higher figure of (for example) £16,000 or £18,000. The rich would benefit just the same as the not so well off. Not ideal for the very low income people I realise but better than cutting the top rate of taxation. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Sep 22 - 07:58 AM The poor are irrelevant, they pay no tax. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:04 AM Income tax payments are concentrated amongst those with the largest incomes. The 10% of income taxpayers with the largest incomes contribute over 60% of income tax receipts. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Raggytash Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:31 AM "The poor are irrelevant, they pay no tax." What an arrogant, thoughtless, uncaring and callous statement that is. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Sep 22 - 10:26 AM You didn't need to use so many adjectives, Raggy. Just Tory would have done. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 25 Sep 22 - 10:57 AM Steve: If you google "half the tax cuts go to the richest five percent" you'll get lots of backup for that, Nigel, including from the Resolution Foundation. Go for it! As suggested I googled that, complete with quote marks, and got no hits. I also tried it without the quotes and got the Guardian where, after using a version of the above headline they immediately corrected themselves, saying: Almost half of the personal tax cuts in the mini-budget will go to the richest 5% of the population, according to analysis by leading economic thinktanks. Fortunately I don't rely on people quoting headlines, but read a little further. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:00 AM Come now, Nigel, that news is all over the place now. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:15 AM Try This one, Nigel Or this one And what does it matter if 49% rather than 50 % is going to the top 5%? It would be wrong even if 30% or 40% was going to those who do not need it! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:09 PM Dave: The Independent is behind a paywall (or sign up for a free trial) City A.M. does indeed have the same headline, but goes on to quote the actual statement: “45 per cent will go to the richest five per cent alone, who will be £8,560 better off. Yes, it is all a matter of degree, but then why make unsubstantiated claims (of 'half') rather than quoting what the Resolution Foundation actually says (45%)? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:12 PM Them nits are getting well picked. Whether it is half or nearly half does not matter at all Nigel. The point is that while the top 5% get the lions share the rest of us still struggle and those not earning enough to pay tax get sweet FA. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:22 PM If they haven't paid any tax then there's no need for them to get any back. They get benefits for doing nothing, dropping babies and generally skiving. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:35 PM and those not earning enough to pay tax get sweet FA. Except for those working for employers who have signed up to the 'Living wage' which has just increased by approximately 10% |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:36 PM You have no idea do you, Bonzo. There are many who, through no fault of their own, simply cannot earn enough. Their fuel and food bills are going up as much as those who earn £150K+ a year yet they get nothing while those who do not need it are getting thousands back in tax reductions. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:40 PM If they are on a living wage and working full time they pay tax, Nigel, I don't undertand your point. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Sep 22 - 02:10 PM ”You have no idea do you, Bonzo.” He gets it alright, Dave. He’s just being a bell-end. Ignore him. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:19 PM Dave: If they are on the living wage, but not working full time they may not be paying tax. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:32 AM Yes, Nigel. I just said that! My point is that those not paying tax - IE the poorest - are getting no help while nearly half of the top 5% of earners get thousands. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:35 AM Sorry, mistyped. Should read nearly half of the tax cuts goes to the top 5% of earners who get thousands. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 Sep 22 - 03:04 AM Sterling falls to record low against the US Dollar. And the BBC are reporting this morning that the value of the pound fell overnight to an even lower level - $1.04 - close to parity! Will someone remind us which party claims to be the Party of financial competence and responsibility, please? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:01 AM I've pinched that, John :-D |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:17 AM This is serious. Kwarteng has signalled that more tax cuts are to come, a move that has completely spooked the markets and investors. Looks like the Bank of England will have to do an emergency hike in interest rates to control inflation. I hope all those mortgaged middle-Englanders who voted Tory are happy now. On Friday afternoon, the tax cuts were described as "a gamble." It's only Monday morning and it's crystal clear that the gamble has failed. But will he U-turn? Why, of course not! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 Sep 22 - 08:01 AM I wonder what’s happened to our resident Tory-Greed-and-Selfishness Apologists this morning? Why aren’t they here explaining to us all how Schrodinger’s Vote works - how voting Tory, and thus against our own best interests, would be in our best interests? |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 Sep 22 - 11:11 AM A fall in the higher rate tax band from 45% to 40% means that bonuses and dividends will need to be delayed until the new tax year to pay the lower rate of tax - good tax planning!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 26 Sep 22 - 11:20 AM At least Jonathan Pie can see Tories for the greedy, self-serving, arrogant bunch of shits they undoubtedly are. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 26 Sep 22 - 01:26 PM From live reporting: Labour conference votes to put pledge to introduce PR in manifesto - despite Starmer already ruling it out The proportional representation motion has been carried. There is quite loud cheering – even though Keir Starmer has said he will ignore the vote, and not include PR in the Labour manifesto. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:40 PM I think that could yet turn out to be another Starmer blunder. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Rain Dog Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:40 PM "But will he U-turn? Why, of course not!" Even you would not expect a U turn after a couple of days. The markets will do what markets do. Some people will make a lot of money from 'gambling' on the markets. Such is modern life. We will have to wait and see how it turns out. Imagine the coverage if it was a Labour government pursuing these policies. Money trees appear to grow on money trees these days. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 26 Sep 22 - 04:49 PM Polly Toynbee has a piece in the Guardian today predicting that the catastrophes of recent times will see the Tories gone for a generation. Well I'm not so sure. This is an extract from a reader's comment on the article which exactly reflects what I think. "I was SURE the electorate would never vote to cut ties with our closest and biggest trading partner and deny themselves free movement. I was SURE that no one could ever, seriously, with a straight face, vote for a comical ridiculous buffoon of an Etonian caricature to lead the country. I was SURE that absolutely no one could ever, seriously, with a straight face, endorse Thick 'This. Is. A. Disgrace!!' Lizzy as a world leader. Every time you put faith in the English electorate, you're setting yourself up for massive disappointment. Best case scenario? Labour scrape a slim majority at the next election, and find themelves faced with a country absolutely destroyed by the scorched earth of 2 years of Trussonomics. No way they can fix it in 5 years, by which time the Tories will have a new face at the helm with a "bold, new vision" who has spent years shifting onto Labour the blame for everything wrong with the country they inherited, and the masses rush to tick their nice, familiar Tory box in 2029. Tories gone for a generation?? Not even if they slaughtered our first-born. England is inherently, irrevocably Tory." |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 26 Sep 22 - 05:03 PM And so they should be!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Rain Dog Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:21 PM "England is inherently, irrevocably Tory." England maybe. I have not checked the figures. The UK, certainly not. Since 1945 we have always ended up with governments who have not been voted for by the majority of people in this country. More often than not that is a Tory government. That is the British way. Neither the Tories or Labour want to change that. Some of us think that is wrong but it is unlikely to change in the near future. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:49 AM New definition of a tory - someone who wouldn't give a toss if an older relative was to die of hypothermia because they can't afford to heat their homes, then start whining because they have to pay inheritance tax. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:52 AM So King Charles the Turd isn't a Tory then! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Bonzo3legs Date: 27 Sep 22 - 09:52 AM The abolition of the 45% rate leaves in place the 60% tax rate suffered by thousands in the £100-£125,000 bracket, another threshold that has remained unchanged for many years. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:30 AM What 60% tax rate might that be?? Starmer acquitted himself well in his speech. All aspiration, of course, and he was clearly cock-a-hoop about the great Tory implosion of the last few days. However, if he does get power he's got a lot of cleaning up to do, and it's got to be paid for sharpish. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:50 AM The greedy, incompetent, dishonest Tories are busy doing what they always do when they know the wheels are coming off and they’re f**ked - they’re doing a huge wealth-grab on behalf of the already-wealthy (which, of course, includes themselves), they’re deliberately tanking the economy, and they’re doing all this to leave huge problems for the incoming (hopefully Labour) government to have to solve and, in so doing, make themselves unpopular again. ‘A Parcel of Rogues’ barely covers it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:58 AM When the pound falls against the ruble, someone needs to U-turn, sharpish. I really, really hope that whichever scriptwriter put the "You turn if you like" joke into Maggie Hatchett's speech meets a suitably gory end: he or she has made it impossible now for *any* politician to admit they were in error, and need to correct the course of the country, in the light of fresh evidence. Even casino owners don't permit punters on a losing streak to double down on a bet more than once. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 27 Sep 22 - 04:15 PM apparently traders are referring to Truss as “Daggers” - as in Dagenham, 2 stops past Barking :-D |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 Sep 22 - 04:41 PM ‘Thick Lizzie’ and ‘Krazy Kwarteng’ here in The Backwoods. Sounds dead right! |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: DMcG Date: 28 Sep 22 - 03:58 AM Does anyone think the media is determined to try and make the Rupa Huq story into the new antisemitism charge against Labour? It was very heavily pushed on Newsnight, more than most things that happened at conference, including, in my subjective view, than Starmer's speech. And here it is again being brought up in the early morning interviews. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Sep 22 - 04:26 AM I've actually complained to the BBC in the past about Kirsty Wark (about how, in a particular interview, she blatantly indulged the Tory whilst not allowing the Labour spokesman to get a single sentence out). I got nowhere, of course. She was like a dog with a bone last night over the alleged racist remark by a Labour MP. It came up again on Today this morning and I thought Starmer handled it well, though the interviewer was less aggressive. It was a clasp-a-hand-to-the-head moment when I first heard about it yesterday, knowing how the media would go into a frenzy over it. Whilst not wishing to indulge in whataboutery here, I couldn't help recalling how the Tories managed to brush off Muslim women wearing letterboxes looking like bank robbers, flag-waving piccaninnies and bum boys in tank tops. A double standard, one which Labour have got to be a damn sight more savvy about. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Backwoodsman Date: 28 Sep 22 - 04:38 AM It’s a pity the press and media don’t seem to have noticed Krazy Kwarteng sitting in his pew, grinning like a Loon on Gak at the Queen’s funeral. If that had been a Labour politician, they’d have been all over it. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Nigel Parsons Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:02 AM I hadn't seen all the details about Rupa Hoq but if even Angela Rayner said the remarks were unacceptable then it must be serious. |
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics From: Dave the Gnome Date: 28 Sep 22 - 06:04 AM 4000! |