You've Got Some Chords, But...

Subject: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 01:54 PM

OK, you've been messing about on your guitar, figured out a pretty interesting chord progression, and even a neat little turnaround with a nice passing note -- How do you make a melody out of this little package?

I'd like to hear different people's approaches to laying down a melody over a chord base.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Mbo
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 02:07 PM

Congratulations, Aine for discovering the method. This is how I compose music, exactly as you have it, by messing around, and coming up with interesting or exciting chord progressions before the melody. I can say that I pretty much have NEVER come up with a melody first, and then put chords and lyrics around it. I don't seem to be wired that way.

How do I create a melody? Well, I suppose it has a lot to do with improvisation. Maybe it's easier for me, because I write, or use other's, lyrics first, then ascribe a chord progression I have come up with, to the lyrics. It's then just a matter of playing the chords, and just singing the words with an improvised melody. Sometimes you can work for hours before you pump out anything that sounds good. Other times it's like magic, the lyrics, combined with the chord prog form an immediate melody in your head.

Some times I work from lyrics alone, with no chords in mind, and just try to come up with chord progs on the spot. I usually work it taking one lyrical phrase at a time. Be sure to have a tape recorder handy, because when I come with a satisfactory little melody for the particular phrase, I record it immediately so I don't forget it. Then I move on the the next one, whilst going back the the first phrase, and memorizing it a bit, so I can make a smooth transfer from one phrase to another. Hopefully in the end you can come up with something very catchy & beautiful. Good luck!

--Matt

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: tradsteve
Date: 23 Jul 00 - 10:01 PM

melody? I prefer to wail, Yoko Ono style. I call it art.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 12:13 AM

Thanks, Mbo, for the feedback. And tradsteve - don't quit your day job ;-).

I guess what I'm wondering about is how do you find a melody within the chord progression -- without using just the base/root notes of the chords -- what I call 'singing on top of the chords'. Do you change the key, the time signature, the strum pattern and see what turns up?

-- Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 07:28 AM

With me, the melody pretty much comes along with the chords. Its the words I have real trouble with.

Ho hum.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 03:12 PM

The truth is that, if you don't want a melody that just 'tops off" the chords you probably should work out your melody first, and then find chords to it. The reason that most of the pop songs that have been written in the last 40 years have no melody is that they were written chords first(or lyrics first, which leaves you even less room to find a melody).

However, jazz musicians regularly create melodies through improvisation over chord progressions, and you could simply put your chord progression on an endless loop tape and try improvising melodies over it, till you found something that you liked.

Please don't ask me to tell you how to improvise in another post, I could teach you how to do it, and, if I could hear you play, I could give you some tips on how to do it, but it is way to hard to explain here, and even if I could, it would be pretty hard to understand, unless you could do it already, in which case you wouldn't need the explanation--

For all those of you out there who are disdainful of music theory, let this be a wake up call--the whole point of music theory is to lay a foundation that allows you to create music--the more theory you understand, the more creative options that you have!!!!

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Mbo
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 04:12 PM

MTed, I'd invite you to listen to my music, and see if THEY have a melody. I can assure you, they do. And some I'm damn proud of too.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 04:30 PM

I'm sorry you got upset there, M.Ted -- I'm sure that you're right that the more music theory you know, the better. I usually do write the tune first; but, I came up with an interesting (I thought) progression the other day, and just thought it would be good discussion to see how other folks on the 'Cat use their creativity to 'discover' the melody line.

Just a note -- I heard a great interview the other day on the radio with Barry Mann and his wife talking about how they wrote so many of the great 'pop' songs of the sixties. And guess what, they used chord progressions many times as the basis for their tunes. I may not know melody from my elbow, but I think that many of their songs have wonderful and memorable melody lines. Just my humble opinion...

-- Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 08:34 PM

Didn't mean to seem angry--just pointing out that a lot of people just throw the chords out there and just pick a note from each--Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil obviously did nore than that, I am fond of many of their songs, I particularly like "Magic Town"--many of their songs have similar melodic elements, which, if you wanted to, you could probably use with your chord progression--

I did suggest a good way to work out a melody to go with your chord progression--as I said though, music theory is nothing more or less than a group of ideas that you can use to create--what you did was to ask for someone to explain a theory that soneone else uses, and that you might be able to use, as well--So here's a theory:

Take the rhythmic phrase from a single line in a Mann/Weil song(Such as "They say the neon lights are bright", pick a note from the chord(say, the 3rd) and sing it over each chord of your progression. You can pick the phrase from a different song for the last chord, such as, "Just a walkin in the rain" and end up on the chord fundamental.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 08:55 PM

Most of the time I get the tune and then try and find a set of chords that will go with it, to help me remember the tune.

Sometimes I'll make up a tune with the guitar in my hands - but I'll normally be thinking melodically rather than harmonically. I'll have a note, and a chord will come along with it. Maybe I'll experiment with the different chords that would include that note.

And when I've got it more or less right, I'll go around singing it without an instrument. Probably when I get back to playing with it I'll find that the tune now needs slightly different chords.

And the other thing is to try playing it on a different type of instrument, like a concertina, or a bouzouki.

But I find it very hard to avoid ironing out the complexities of a song when I'm playing an accompaniment to it, especially with other people playing along.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 24 Jul 00 - 09:00 PM

MBo--yes, I am sure you're songs have really melodies--probably related to the fact that you are a serious music student, and not one of these rumdums that has a plastic guitar, spiked hair, and a choreographer--still can't tell one NSYNC song from another, but I do like the way that they turn into toystore dolls and then back into people after they cross the cash register scanner in the video--

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:56 PM

Just thought I'd refresh this old thread to see if anyone would be interested. ;-)

It's been two years since I asked the original question: How do you find the melody in a chord progression? I've written a few more songs since then, and learned a little more music theory. I'm at the point now where I can transpose from one key to another in my head (pretty much), and I've gotten better about finding the melody line in a progression.

Funny thing is, the song I was working on when I posted two years has never been finished -- still no melody. I've tried the 'improv' method, but I haven't found anything that really 'sticks'. But, I still love the chords and riffs I came up with.

So, apart from the original question, here's another one: Should I try and 'deconstruct' the chord progression I've written already, or just forget about it?

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Bert
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:05 PM

Just a suggestion... Put your guitar away and take your song for a nice long walk or maybe a drive.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:27 PM

bert, my darlin'! It's so good to hear from you -- I miss you so much. And I think your idea is excellent! '-)

Hugs and snogs to ya, ya buggah, Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM

Good to see this thread again. I was skimming through it and found myself more or less agreeing with one of the posts, and then I checked and it was me writing it. No recollection whatsoever of doing so.

Of course, if I was one of those nameless GUESTs reading an old thread I'd have no way of knowing that I'd written it...

Talking about chords, I was at a Boot Fair on Saturday, and, by some miracle, in a pile of old vinyl records I found a Topic reissue of Woody Guthrie's Bonneville Power Administration set of songs, a couple of which I don't think I'd ever heard before.

But the point is, the record sleeve had this little note to the version of Pastures of Plenty on the record: "Woody plays one chord throughout most of this song. In the movie he favours a minor chord. On this recording he plays a major. The melody is the same in both cases.

I find that kind of thing very encouraging, since I tend to go for using as few chords as I can get away with much of the time.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:24 PM

I believe long exposure to good music in the folk genre sensitizes you not only to chords but also to the impact of segments, intervals, and certain kinds of runs, and also develops a sense of how the ties between chords can work and can vary. This matrix of background experience makes it possible to go back and forthbetween the larger blacks represented by the chords, and the finer threads of musical sensation which you build by the melodic line contrasting with the chords' "infrastructure" so to speak.

This is an evolutionary process. As with all evolutionary processes some resultants survive and others get eaten! :>)

Much love,

A

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:32 PM

So, let me see here -- that's if I translated your message correctly, Amos. What you're really saying is that I haven't evolved -- right? '-)

-- Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:55 PM

No, no TGG!!! In this process, as in all processes, you are the Goddess. The things that evolve are the songs, and some of the combinations will open bright futures for themselves, and others will hang around for a couple of trials and get tossed. Not you!!! Not you!!! LOL!!! The SONGS, silly Goddess!! The Songs!!!

A

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:07 PM

Sorry, Bubba A. -- but, my eyes started to cross about mid-way through the first sentence ;-) I didn't know whether to grab my waders and jump in the pond with ya, or head for cover (hahahaha).

As fun as it can be to discuss the essence of bullfrogs versus cooters, what I'm looking for is some technical advice.

When I mentioned 'deconstructing' the chord progression, what I meant was, looking at the individual notes within each chord. 'Course, what do I do then? Like a good friend of mine once said, 'if you know the names of all the tunes, you don't know the tunes.'

-- Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:09 PM

The Lost World with songs... "My God, Challenger - there's a Giant Talking Blues in hot pursuit of a Lonesome Holler!"

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:11 PM

A Chaoimhin,

*LOL*!!

- Á.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 08:14 PM

LOL, Kevin.

Aine:

This is a conversation needing to happen.

I'd love to have it with you if you have time to gimme a ring.

ML,

A

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 05:58 PM

Just refreshing this thread -- just in case anyone else has any more ideas ;-)

-- Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 06:56 PM

It's an ear thing, honest -- you hear it before it happens, based on a whole wad o' experience/

Hope that is a bit plainer!! LOL!!

A

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM

I was working on a new one tonight. The melody is there, but I feel it'd be better with a few slightly more ornate chords for once, so it's a question of playing around and finding out which chords containing the relevant notes sound best with the meaning of the words.

I don't think there are any rules I'm looking for about that. The only way is just try them out until they sound right. (And then I'll probably end up throwing out most of the ornate chords.)

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: blt
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:26 AM

I read this without realizing it was a well-historied thread. My comments may be duplicating, but it's what I do when I find myself with a set of chords that I like. First thing I do is sing/hum along with the chords, allowing myself to explore octaves, harmonies, quarter tones, whatever. I guess that's the improv angle someone else mentioned. I tend to become obsessed with the thing I'm working on at the moment, so I improv like this everywhere, for at least a week, maybe two, before I try to add more structure. I sometimes will write a melody down, if I feel that's helpful. I also play with flatpicking/fingerpicking, key, tempo. I play around with the transitions from one chord to another. Usually, there's a "distance" one travels between one chord to another, and it simply takes practice to hear the possible steps. I'm typically playing around with lyrics about this time (though not always), so vocal phrasing intersects with melody voicing. I write down as much as possible or document what I'm doing in some way. I don't use a tape recorder because I've never owned one, which is a disadvantage, I think. I sing the melody of the moment and then I try harmonies, sometimes the harmony line evolves to become the melody line or vice versa. I have one finger-picked melody that's probably 15 years old and I've just added lyrics--in that process, the melody I fingerpicked has changed slightly. I'm not as knowledgeable about theory as I could be (that's for sure)and my tendency is to use improv as my primary muse. Don't know if any of this is helpful, but good luck.

blt

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:59 PM

Áine,

One approach, kind of technical and kind of not, that has worked for me is that I "didn't worry" about the melody. I finished up the words.

Then I started singing it monotone, maybe with a note that's not the root note of the first chord. I kind of stayed there through some chord changes, and went up when I've been monotone long enough.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:17 AM

Thanks everybody!

Kevin -- I hope that's Tilly's song that you're working on -- I hope you'll send it to me soon!

blt -- Thanks, I think I'll try your method out, too. And I've just resuscitated a 19 year old song, although I only kept two or three lines of lyrics and the tune. Amos and I collaborated on it, and I'm hoping that the finished product will be appearing on the Mudcat CD! Just proves the old adage -- NEVER throw anything away!

And dear Michael, your suggestion is kind of a 'mantra' approach, ain't it? ;-) I like it -- I've got another little tune rolling around in my head that I think I could use your method on. Keep tuned, I'll let you know how it goes. And thanks so much for 'chiming in' here ;-)

Well, it sure looks like I've got my work cut out for me. But, how can I miss with all you great 'Cats giving me such great advice!?!

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 04:47 PM

Great stuff from blt...I agree completely. One really good way of getting melodies floating around your head is to get comfortable, open up a book of poetry and just start "singing" the poems. Even if it feels a bit weird at first, it's a really fine improvisational learning tool. Remember, we've often talked about improvisation on Mudcat, but usually in an instrumental sense....but the same goes for vocalisation. Yer not JUST makin' it up...what you've done is collect information and now you're using parts of it in random order.

Works the same with a newspaper (or internet) article...just "sing" it to yourself (quietly..or your nearest and dearest will think you're nuts!).

Eventually you'll be able to strum random chords and hum melodies over the top of them. Now, a warning. Have a taperecorder going, 'cause it's bloody hard to remember when you've hit on something that interests you. I've lost thousands of good melodies that way. You think..."oh it'll come back"...but sometimes it doesn't....'cause it's an improvisation....so grab it while you can!

Rick

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: Áine
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:00 PM

Hey Rick!!

I'm so glad you're feeling well enough to come in on the discussion! Thanks for the advice -- but, I don't have to worry about Dear Hubby thinking I'm nuts -- after 15 years of marriage, he knows I am! ;-)

Keep taking care of yourself, Áine

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 06:50 PM

Making up tunes while you are driving has the advantage you don't get tempted into picking up a guitar prematurely.

And here you are, Áine,Tilly's song - a version anyway.

Subject: RE: You've Got Some Chords, But...
From: 53
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 09:37 PM

Whenever you get like this, get you a small recorder and record every thing that you play, then when you go back and listen you'll have all your material at your fingertips. Bob