MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR

Subject: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Katcina
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 09:09 AM

I want to give my thanks to both Nathan for Mudcat Tavern and Nynia for Mudcat Snug Bar. I have enjoyed both and having both an open and a locked room should satisfy the desires of all Mudcatters. Should you be unable to find or enter either of these rooms please feel free to contact either of them for more information. It has been posted here in the forum but the threads tend to become lost if not posted to regularly. Also, thanks to Sandy and the volunteer concert singers for our Thursday evening concerets. Please remember to support and attend our Mudcat Concerts on Thursday evenings. The last one with Ivan singing was great even though he had some ISP problens. His singing well made up for the technical problems. Thanks to all of you who have made Mudcatting such an enjoyable experience for me and many others.

Katcina

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: carolee
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:26 AM

I don't understand any of this. What tavern? Locked rooms? Concerts? I am a new comer

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:01 AM

Carolee....It's a service called Paltalk and when loaded you can access a list of rooms. With a Microphone and speakers connected to your computer you can talk / sing / play in the various rooms. Mudcat has three...One for concerts...one open for just dropping and and singing or listening and one for a more cloistered atmosphere. I like them all and all have their qualities and My thanks too to the people who organise and run them.

Paltalk can be found at www.paltalk.com (sorry no clicky...no clicky skills)

Passwords are required for two of the rooms and if you refresh this thread and ask someone , I am sure , will supply them.

Hope this helps....

Spot.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Abby Sale
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:27 AM

I thoroughly agree with KatC that both were jus' fine. And that Nathan & Nynia did extremely All one would hope for. But I do strongly object to the two-room notion. I have to choose which room to be in and clearly I want to be in both. It may be that one might choose based on the actual idea of the thing - do I want to be in an open or closed room? But in reality, one has to mostly choose where the singing's best. And it seems it's best in both places.

I think one can largely Ignore harassers (although I admit I've never had the opportunity to enjoy a harasser) and the admin can always red-dot (turn off) an abuser. The single jerk I've heard sang a few lines with one "naughty" word and ran away. Frankly, I'd like to have heard the rest of the song!

Really, unless the group becomes too large or needs to specialize in types of music, I don't see the advantage in more than one room.

Go open or go closed. Please.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:35 AM

I agree with Abby two rooms are divisive. I prefer open and those that prefer closed exclude people I enjoy who are not Mudcatters. We dont appear to have a concensus but can try both. I will rarely open the closed one anyway. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: John Routledge
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:58 AM

I can see the initial logic in three rooms and hope the experiment continues. At some time however I feel that a decision as to two or three rooms should be made dependant on experience. Geordie Broon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:59 AM

I enjoyed the 'locked' room last night- the benefits of feeling a part of the mudcat community were obvious. I like to make music with my friends from the mudcat, rather than lots of strangers who drop in and out...

I know there are differences of opinion on the subject, but with the easily remembered password (dt) the locked room is readily available to any mudcatters- another benefit of membership?

Give it a try- hope to see lots of new folks pulling up a comfy chair and making music together.

Noreen

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: IvanB
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM

I tend to agree that two rooms running simultaneously are superfluous. I can see the merits of both points of view, but maybe we should set up some sort of schedule so only one room is open at any one time (I'm not including the concert room in this equation). I have to believe that having a 'locked' room running alongside an 'open' one is going to cause divisiveness and frayed tempers. That's nothing but human nature. And, like Abby, I surely would want to be in both and resent having to make the choice.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:34 PM

What about alternating days? One day have the open room, the next the closed room, then the open one again....and so on....

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:41 PM

I agree with Amergin.

If there are people who want BOTH options, we should work toward creative solutions that achieve consensus, not settle for a majority vote. If all things Mudcat were decided by majority vote, it would be a far different place. Persisting to consensus builds community, opens minds to new approaches, and reflects how human beings actually think when the atmosphere is safe enough-- which is to keep problem-solving till solutions fit right for the whole group.

Democracy is a fine thing. But when consensus can be achieved, it's better.

~Susan

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Banjer
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:52 PM

I don't usually have much time to spend in either room, but the every other day idea sounds real nice. That way we could enjoy both, not be forced into making a decision!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: MMario
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 02:14 PM

I can see the benefit of the "locked" private room for some things. I doubt if I would have had the courage to sing in hearme the first time if it had been wide open to the public. It was tough enogh singing to people I know. An the other hand, I like the openness of the public room and the fact that we meet new people and hear different people we might not get a chance to if it was only "us"

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 02:45 PM

I think we should let it breathe for a while and see what happens. Talking of letting it breathe..Is the new room smoking or non smoking ;-)

(Naughty) Spot.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:00 PM

I'm all in favour of letting things breathe, Spot- even dogs who pant at my feet... The room is definitely non-smoking for dogs.

Noreen

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:03 PM

Me, too, Noreen.

Good idea to alternate. Also, the closed one is no secret to non-Mudcatters who may come in here and see the password OR ask just ask as they used to have to do for HearMe.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:59 PM

Another benefit from alternating each night is that after a week it won't be on the same night so anyone who enjoys a closed room but can only make Fridays for example will be able to visit the room of their choice at least once a fortnight. I am happy with either set up but do think its a shame to miss out on the droppers in who on occasions have ended up as members. They were unaware of the mudcat site until then so would never have found us if they hadn't just happened to be passing. A lot of people think they don't like folk music because they have no real concept of what it is and are agreeably surprised when they hear what goes on.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Midchuck
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 04:30 PM

Are the two rooms "owned" by the same person?

P.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 04:30 PM

The Hearme thing again!!!! Hearme was never "secure" many people came in who were not Mudcatters. I would like to point out that anyone reading the threads in Mudcat now has the password to the room and can come in whenever its open.... Security is a figment of your imagination people, it doesnt exist! The admin function is there to protect you from annoying people. They can be,and are, removed or silenced in a flash which could not be done in Hearme. That only happens if you inform the room admin you are being annoyed. A closed room means no-one will invite new people to join in and learn to enjoy the music; which is a stupid way to protect yourselves from potential future members. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From:
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 04:51 PM

I'm with Dave..Mike

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 05:40 PM

It certainly does NOT mean I won't invite poeple in to meet all of us and to play for us, Dave, the same as I did with HearMe.

I also pointed out the obvious fact that the password is here for anyone to see, so it is never truly closed at all.

Do we really have to hash this out, again? A couple of people decided to set up another room and try this. Why not give it a chance, so we can see how it feels, to any of us, and quit picking about it!

kat

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:06 PM

Perhaps we should have a string of rooms on the go. There could be one for singers (the mudcat snug), another for Irish music (the diddly-diddly downstairs), one for melodeons (kiss me quick - squeeze me slow?), perhaps a banjo room (the clawhammer kitchen), bodhrans (beaters' bathroom), fiddlers' foyer........ Any good suggestions?
I don't have any problem with the open room. We have had some very enjoyable late nights (nobody joins until almost midnight GMT, 7pm Mudcat time) but have to get up at 5.00am when the twins wake up and start crying, so can't often stay up that late.
We wuld like something to continue - please try to resolve the dispute without too much blood on the carpet.
Quack
GtD.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:30 PM

Yes katL we do have to hash this out... Jon Freeman and I worked hard to set this up.... Has anyone thought why Jon washed his hands of the room??? Because all people do is whine and complain and critises everything done for them. Mudcatters can open their own rooms....I dont need any more stress either. Fuck it people, open as many goddamned rooms as you like... I like the one I'm in. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: alison
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:31 PM

I'm sorry..... I know it was me brought up the subject of stalkers and problems......... but I'd rather put up with that than have a locked room where you don't get to meet those rare talents out there who are delighted to stumble across the mudcat room... and find somewhere nice, and friendly and comfortable........

I have no problem with a locked room for the concerts... but for a sing-a-round....... how would you feel if someone locked the door on your local folk club? You would never have met anyone new....... I'd never have got in.......

there are a lot of good folkies out there who don't have anywhere to go... they don't fit into the guitar rooms.... but they sure fitted into the mudcat room.... and I don't like the idea of them being kept out because "we" don't recognise them......

maybe I haven't been in thhere when people have had trouble with mic hogs / troublemakers (I'm in a way different time zone so that is highly likely)...... I don't like the idea of having 2 rooms set up against each other.. and that is what will happen...... its easy I won't choose between them, I'll be elsewhere....... I don't want a "them and us" situation........

I think this has the power to be very devisive...... but if it has to be open them night about.. not both together....... but I think its a shame for those good friends and wonderful musicians who many of us have met.... who don't happen to be mudcatters.....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 07:25 PM

Well Dave you are right in that I can't be bothered with the hassle that tends to be involved in these things butI was always going to pass the room over to someone else at some point in the future. The reason for my timing though was precisely over this open/ closed room business as it had become obvious to me that the issue was not going to settle after several discussions.

For my part, as most people know, I am strongly in favour of the open room. I have always believed in free folk music for all and the closed room goes against those beliefs (as far as I was concerned, the only reason for keeping Hearme reasonably quiet was because it was so insecure and we did not have any means of dealing with trouble).

I also believe that Mudcat is a free and open forum to Guests and Members and I find it hard reconciling this with a closed room - the 2 seem inconsistent to me. Perhaps this Mudcat Inner Circle or Clique that some talk about does exist after all.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:11 PM

oh for goodness' sake...

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:10 PM

Fuck it, indeed. It is not worth it, have it any way that you like. Obviously we are just a bunch of snobby, paranoids who don't belong in there anyway! Of course if someone just wanted to have a quiet night with a few close friends they'd be just as snobby and paranoid, eh?

Elitist Cliquey Bytch

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:17 PM

I wish all of you would step back and take a few breaths....then get back and hug and kiss and whatever...the only way to do this is to make compromise...bloody hell...

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:46 PM

For us morons who haven't been to either of these rooms, locked or otherwise, is there a more specific web address? The www.paltalk.com just takes me to very general screen. And could somebody PM me with the password? And stop quarreling. It's very disturbing to my sensitive nature when folkies fight.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 04 Feb 01 - 11:59 PM

Kat.. can I state the obvious? You can open a room for your clique anytime you want to... there is nothing stopping you from doing that. You can open a room just for Mudcat women... You can open a room for Mudcat Bodhran players and one for Mudcat elitist groupies... Nothing stopping you at all; and I dont care... But Mudcat Song Circle has been very interesting and refreshing and open....now we have another room, a closed room, and I dont want to open it and not the other; or try to be an admin for both sides. Its bad enough trying to look after one room never mind three.. Thank God for Bigchuck running the concerts....Step up to the mike please and run your own shows in your own rooms....I dont care anymore. Honest!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:19 AM

Lonesome EJ which password do you want? The closed room? the open room? the Concert room? or the many others that are needed... I'm sorry LEJ just send me your email and I'll invite you to the Tavern next time I'm on .. That way you just click on my message and join paltalk. It should be fairly easy from there mate.. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:20 AM

Key-riced, Dave! I'da thought you knew me better than that by now! I do not have a gawddamned clique nor do I want one.

I honestly don't give a damn, either, as it is unbelievably rancorous just because some of us voiced an opposing view.

I can tell you one thing for sure, had I not been in the closed room, last night, among friends I know and trust, I would never have tried out my new dulcimer. Oh well, guess that's my problem.

kat

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:23 AM

LeeJ, when you get to PalTal.com you have to donwload the program, then install and register. It is usually very simple.

Then whenever you want to go to the Main Song circle room, or any of the others, just open up Paltalk, click on Groups, then Music, the look for a room which says "Mudcat" whatever. For the Concert Room the password is "marmot"; for the closed on, if it is still exists, it is "dt" for digitrad; if it is the Main one, you don't need a password. Be sure yu have your paltalk ticked to show Adult groups when the group thing opens, as these are R rated and won't show if you don't.

kat

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: alison
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:30 AM

LEJ go to that big paltalk page.. and select download..... it'll tell you what to do....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 12:46 AM

Jesus bloody goddamn Christ! Do I have to seperate you children? Ok, that's it! Kat, You go stick your nose in that corner and, Dave, go stand in that one over there. I don't want you two to talk to each other, I don't even want you two to look at each other. When can you come out of the corner? When you both are ready to play nice with each other! Then when I let you out, I want you both to write on a piece of paper, "I will not argue about PalTalk." about 300 times. Then, I want you two to go clean your rooms....they're both very bloody messy. And one more peep out of either one of you, you'll be grounded for the rest of the school year.

Nathan

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: wdyat12
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:06 AM

This sounds like a cozy place to land for awhile. wdyat12

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:22 AM

Thank you, Nathan. I have something to say, and they aren't going to like it. Yeah-- sit on 'em a minnit. They'll live!

Do you people realize that most of what was said here was about the past, and that the new people here want to be in the RIGHT NOW time with you?

To solve a problem, LOOK FORWARD. If whatever you hashed out before had been hashed out effectively, it would not be so touchy NOW. You don't have THEN to deal with NOW. You have NOW. NOW includes limitless possibilities, fresh approaches, new people to play with... the world!! Look out there! See? It's all BRAND NEW!!

"Veteran" Mudcatters, please, try to represent the BEST of Mudcat, not unhealed wounds ready to break open at the drop of a hat. It's like walking into a flashback of your pasts every time something gets hot. WE WERE NOT THERE. We have NO idea what you are so nuts over!

And you know, I for one don't want to know!

I don't need any more "tactful" and vague, worried-sounding PM's cautioning me about all the terrible stuff just under the surface! This walking on tippytoes around all your old hurts-- I'm done with it! None of you are the scared little victims you portray each OTHER to be! If you want the respect of the newer members... and for things to grow in a healthy way... find a way to heal and deal.

HEAL AND DEAL. No one can do it for you. But YOU CAN DO IT.

~S~

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:56 AM

kat, if I had wanted a "quiet night with a few close friends", I would have created a temporary private room and quietly invited those I wanted in and kept it between us not continually moan about an existing setup that was working and was, overall, enjoyed by those that went there - they kept coming back and that should say something. You have worked harder than any to get this current situation and make it into a Mudcat issue rather than the simple desire to have a quiet night with your chosen friends - now the job is done, don't moan - enjoy it.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: mkebenn
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 06:14 AM

I have been to the "open" room three times now, and each night I came away with a treasure. Once a song called "Surrender" that I'd never heard, once the only other male {besides myself} I've ever heard sing "Mary Hamilton", and last night a compleatly different version of "Williow Garden" I have no idea what the squabble is here, but I see people I have come to respect a great deal in a short time acting {IMHO} like children. Who do you want the room closed to? Tempers flaring and personal digs seem so out of place here. What am I missing? Mike Bennett

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: nutty
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:19 AM

That's my question as well Mike - who is the room being closed to?

We appear to have aquired three kinds of human beings:-
1.FRIENDS - as in those of Noreen and Kat - I certainly don't fit into that catagory - I have never met or conversed with either
2.MUDCATTERS which I presume I am having registered and gained a 'mudcat'name but I was not aware that this gave me extra-ordinary privileges
3.OUTSIDERS - which I once was and would still be if the site had been locked, as I would never have had the courage to force my way in and I can't remember ever having had a special invitation.

Open rooms are more difficult to manage - they have to be 'run' in the same way as you would 'run' a folk club'( they are not a place to have a half hour chat with your mates ) but unless you teach people the rules they will always behave in a way that is not acceptable
I am saddened by this division and hope that the matter is resolved very quickly

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 08:18 AM

There sure are a lot of purty women in that there Mudcat Tavern/ Snug Room!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Iarf
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 08:38 AM

This is really making me unhappy. I wish I could help.

Iarf.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Pondering It All
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:07 AM

The closed room may be just fine for those that need that false security blanket.
I have and will always continue to support the open forum room where all can come without feeling like they are intruding and enjoy an evening of great music and fun people.
If it weren't for the open roon that was originally at Pal Talk I would have never found such a great group of people to spend time with.
I agree with Alison and Dave completely.
TWC

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM

Jon, I have not moaned. I expressed an opinion, a very few times, in support of others or because others were too shy to bring it up themselves. To gawddamned bad I had an opinion. I will not be in either room.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:33 AM

Don't do that, kat, please.

I felt odd last night, looking at the paltalk screen- there were six catters logged on to paltalk but no rooms were open, I imagine because of all of this... it is now a political issue which room I open!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:40 AM

Right. I am, as of now, de-personalising the issue. You are entitled to express (and back up) any opinion, and it WILL NOT be taken personally. No personal attacks, please. We are all here to share music together.

Noreen

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM

duh...am I missing something here? In my mind, there is only one simple problem...getting enough folks to show up all at the same time. Has anyone else noticed this?

I love the freedom and spontaneity of being able to just "drop in" when it's convenient with me. The price for this convenience is that sometimes nobody else is around. The solution is to obviously schedule meeting times, but somehow, I'm just not one that can commit (except for the concerts which are usually at a regular time that I can plan around). Dave and Jon (and many "regulars" that I recognize, some new friends too) have spent countless hours keeping the room open. Anyone who wants this job...step forward, we can all live in harmony here and have the best of all worlds...but be prepared to put some time in to make it work.

I've never in my life been to a "real life" song circle. From what I've read here (Joe Offer, etc.) they meet once a month or so. This PalTalk room which is open every night seems to be something different. I still say that with enough volunteers, there's just no reason why we can't have the best of all worlds.

Mary (keeper of THE LIST of requests)

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Midchuck
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:56 AM

If anyone gives a damn, I have a preference for the closed room.

If it were really closed, I'd be of the opposite opinion. But the fact is that anyone can find the password at mudcat. It's only "closed" to people who are surfing Paltalk at random. And since Paltalk music groups are, for the most part, horrible, they are, again for the most part, frequented by people whose standard of music is horrible.

Granted, there have been exceptions. But I've found the closed room more pleasant most of the time.

I have every intention of trying to lure people I know whom aren't on mudcat but might enjoy the Paltalk rooms, into them, and giving out the password freely. I'm not looking for social exclusivity, I'd just like to stay on topic.

Peter.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 11:07 AM

Mary, can you clarify what you are offering to do? Could someone please start from scratch and explain to new people what this whole thing is all about?

And could we please stop referring to the resource of live, online song swapping by jargon words that mean nothing unless one is already clued in? The ability to do these song cicles, or whatver we choose to call them, is revolutionary! Calling the threads about it "HearMe" or "PalTalk Now" or "Tavern This" or "Snuggery That--" it does not say what it IS, it says it is something MORE that everyone but the newcomer GETS. Putting the info in the FAQ thread is not enough-- people get attracted by the threads and they are off and running.

Also, while I'm at it, the Permathreads need to be a BRIGHT COLOR. They are so pale against the forum threads-- why would anyone feel a need to open them? They should be RED!

May reasoned minds prevail, and may unsettled hearts calm.

~S~

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: dwditty
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 11:36 AM

This dicussion reminds me of church. No matter what the topic, there are always disagreements. As if that were not enough, heels wind up well dug in. Sooner or later, one or all parties get huffy. We're not talking major world issues here. Relax and do whatever you want. Some will partake...some will not. In the meantime, I sure hope no one takes their ball and goes home.

dw

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 11:44 AM

For personal preference I fall on the side of a completely open room. Of course you sometimes get people accidentally stumbling in who do not know anything about the Mudcat Cafe, a few have been a pain in the neck, and have been rapidly "bounced" by the admin. Others have been fascinated and enchanted by the diversity and quality of the singing and have felt privileged to have spent time with those of us who were there. There have been visitors, used to the Karaoke groups on paltalk, who arrived with pre-recorded backing tracks, but when it was explained that the mudcat room was about live song and music, they stayed with us and listened with good grace.
The only drawback of the open room is that it needs someone to open it as admin, and you can sit on your own for a long time in an open room if everyone else is still at the pub (or just arriving home for their tea / getting up from their bed on another continent).
All in all I believe the benefits of an open room for general purposes outweigh those of the alternative. If you are shy, you can always log onto paltalk using a variety of assumed names. I don't care what you call yourselves as long as the conversation and song are fun!
Quack!!!!!
GtD

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 11:53 AM

You people are insane!! lol!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:07 PM

That's why you love us Matt. Noren I was one of those online last night waiting for someone else to open A room. I didn't want to be admin because I wanted to get off to bed early. If I do open a room it will almost certainly be the open one but I except peoples personal preferences and if the other room is open I will call in.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:18 PM

Kettle calling the pot black, MattR? I have tried to run a friendly room, and respect the wishes of others, sometimes at the expense of my own pleasure. There have been occasions when Mudcatters have come into the room, and insulted vistors who came in by invite. Why? because we chose to allow them to play some light rock or electric blues. Or on one occasion a guy who lost his voice (temp) played a cd of his own singing and was insulted and left the room never to return. That same performer is an outstanding guitarist and singer. I'm in the room for fun and music not confrontation and politics. When we set up this format everyone had an opportunity to have opinions and suggestions, which for the most part were respected and implemented. Midchuck, I have been in many rooms where the quality of the performers would astound you. Funnily enough other Catters were in these rooms singing and playing because it was more fun there than in the Mudcat room. I have always found some decent rooms to listen in and have been treated very well by the regulars and admins. Simply put, I'm in it for fun and no longer cater to individuals who are not satisfied with the way I run the room... Everyone is free to choose a room and run it their way. I shall not interfere with any room set up by other Mudcatters; but I shall choose the way I run any room that I am admin in, without regard for outside opinions.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: MMario
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:44 PM

BRAVO! Well said Dave!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: IvanB
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:45 PM

I think it's far too early to be arguing about this, if we have to argue about it at all. I stated my opinion earlier that, if both rooms are open at the same time, it's probably going to dilute our experience. That said, now that the 'closed' room has been established, I think a couple months down the road is when we should have a discussion over the merits of the two rooms. Right now, we have nothing but our preconceptions to offer, which is bound to make us rancorous. With some experience of some time with the two rooms under our belts, we should be able to have a measured discussion of their relative success.

Although I have my preference, I will be participating in both rooms and, I expect, will be enjoying what each has to offer.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:50 PM

Exactly what I said in my first posting, Ivan: A couple of people decided to set up another room and try this. Why not give it a chance, so we can see how it feels, to any of us, and quit picking about it!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Katcina
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:52 PM

Thank you Dave!!!!

I was just about to say the same thing MMario!!

I admin. in too many rooms to not KNOW that we have QUALITY musicians and rooms for them all over Pal Talk.

I find it a shame when people become so cliqueish that they want to ban others of equal (sometimes higher) value, just to be going by their standards which may frequently leave something to be desired.

Dave(TAM) most eloquently expresses most of my views on the matter.

Thanks for all of your great support and help in all of the rooms Dave!!

Katcina

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 01:55 PM

Defending rancor does not further solutions. This is starting to sound more like a lovers' quarrel than like a fight over mudpie rights.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:06 PM

hmmm...

now everyone, this is getting really complex... too many cooks, spoil the you know what...

Well, personally speaking, I have only been paltalking for 2/3 weeks. Before that I rarely had time to go on hear me and found it a bit of a pain. I have been a mudcatter for around 3 years, and find it very valuable.

Now, the one thing I noticed about the open room on paltalk, was that we met a few people, namedly NamFrank etc who may not be mudcatters, I'm not sure.... but I enjoyed their contribution to the room.

One thing with the closed room, is that we may not come across new people, like Alison has mentioned and a few others... now this would be a shame.

This discussion is getting out of hand, people are just going on about the obvious and people are starting to chase their own tails...

What about... this... if the room is mainly open - but 2-3 times a week it is a closed room, where people who may be a bit more reserved than, lets see... me (hem hem - I'm bold out, as my auntie calls me - brass neck as my grandad used to say) can go to air out new songs amongst friends - or play their new instrument - for some valuable feed back.

But I do feel it is detremental (big word for me - after doing a long days course) to the general ethos, which I believe the mudcat to stand for.... Sharing music, amongst others, passing on a digital tradition. It is great to hear tunes and songs from all over the place, and I think it is a fantastic idea...

So come on folks... lets compromise - this is how sicilian grudges take off, is part of the reason why there is so many problems around the world... no one makes a compromise...

Though... at the same time... I said it would be a shame to miss out on the open rooms, I don't really mind at all - as I like all the stuff I hear on the rooms.. SO either way, I am not that bothered... but I think it would be a shame...

so what do you think? 2-3 times a week locked room, to give people a chance to try out new things... etc amongst 'friends'... a kind of sounding board room - a place to air out the new things.... the rest of the time open... and if people want an open one at the same time as the closed one.. then so be it...

Please, can we get over this already...

Ella

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: John Routledge
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:12 PM

At the end of the day success of "Rooms" depends on admin of the rooms. I have very strong views on this matter but feel the people administering the rooms should have the MAJOR say.

Well said Dave (TAM).

Yours in Harmony John GB

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Matt_R
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:48 PM

Yeah Ella, it would be the same without you! **drool**

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:52 PM

Hey I've just realised if there are two rooms I can sing the same songs in both and double my repetoire in an instant. BTW the word in the previous posting should have read accept NOT except!!!!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:04 PM

Katcina said, I find it a shame when people become so cliqueish that they want to ban others of equal (sometimes higher) value, just to be going by their standards which may frequently leave something to be desired.

Some seem to have made some incorrect assumptions about me or I've been misrepresented.

To my knowledge, none of us who've waxed poetic about HearMe have ever requested a BAN. READ MY WORDS: There is no clique going on here. Just people trying to express an apparently unpopular opinion.

I am not shy, as anyone who's been in HearMe will tell you; I have never said I wanted only a closed room; I've always been very welcoming to any newcomers in PalTalk or HearMe; and I don't need any "false security blanket."

If you are a newbie and feeling as though you don't know what we are all talking about, consider we were once in your place. Do some homework, read some threads, ask somebody, and listen up...that's how a lot of us figured out was going on in here when we were new.

kat

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Matt_R
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:19 PM

ooops, that should say "WOULDN'T"

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Micca
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:31 PM

I was meaning to post this earlier but my ISP is playing up, so ,Not wishing to add fuel to a fire but I think it still needs saying
On this subject there seems to be a lot of " sound and fury "and sniping but it is simply the old Folk club question.. in a different context. Some times we want the familiar and to go and meet friends and hear familiar songs and singers where we are welcomed and supported, (and this is a real feeling and feature of the Snug for me) other times we want to hear someone new or different..
It is about Choice and if we can have choice, and I believe in this instance we can, then lets have it, divisive? NO , any more than the existence of 2 clubs in a town on the same night is, and NO ONE I hope would say shut one down so we all have to go to the remaining one..
Having said that, I and several others prefer, mostly, to sing with and to people we mostly know …and have felt intimidated from singing in the open room for what ever reason , and also from trying new material as well. Some of us are amateurs and may not be as comfortable with semi-public performance yet
I hear you Dave, but to some this Mudcat is a community, and when we meet (either in e-space or 3D) it is as friends, and we enjoy getting to know them over time. Some of the purpose of Paltalk, for me is just that, getting to know better some folks I already know, it is NOT excluding others, as the only criteria for admission are that you find the info on the Mudcat, you don't even have to be a member..
So I am in favour of having BOTH rooms running and people just have to choose… which is more their style… no conflict, Choice, between "HotnWet*MoaningPlayboysnplaygirlsSexorga*sm" and "Mudcat Tavern" or "Mudcat Snug", it is easy choose the one that fits your mood…The rest is baloney, "Divisive" , "cliquey"…only if YOU think so. I, for one, am glad that our community" can support 3 such interesting venues to cater for the diverse tastes of ALL the Folkies out there and it's up to all of us to support them.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:46 PM

Please note: This is my final post on this thread. Jon and I opened Paltalk and ran the room for some time. Despite complaints and people who constantly cajoaled and threatened to leave and whined, the room was largely popular with everyone who came in, and enjoyed the singing and playing. I am not against anyone starting an alternate room, I encourage you to do so for all your personal needs. Song Circle is now broken up into different rooms, and which would you have me open? As an admin I do not care to have my loyalty split and divided this way. There was nothing wrong with the room we ran. If you want to split up and divide into groups I will not be responsible for admining the rooms with such an atmosphere prevailing. Sorry people I am enjoying myself on Paltalk hope you all work things out to your satisfaction. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Diva
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:55 PM

Been reading this one with interest and my first thought was,wow just like a real folk club. I was asked about this the other night and my reaction was definately a closed room because apart from a very few notable exceptions the standard has been crap but as i said at the time i am not the most musically tolerant..... I agree with Micca there is room enough for 2.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Pondering It All
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:58 PM

Hate to see Dave not be a part of what was a really great room. He always seemed to be the glue that held us all together. I hope that all will soon come to their senses!!

Katcina

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: nutty
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 05:02 PM

Do you think the standard will improve in a closed room Diva ??? Ninety percent of the people in there will be the same as those you are refering to as CRAP. It really does beg the question as to why someone so musically intolerant was there in the first place.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Micca
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 05:36 PM

Maybe not Nutty, but maybe people who might feel inhibited at singing to strangers would feel able to sing to those they regard as friends..and ask any one who was at Llanstock I or II, it was NOT singing to starngers, weven tho few of us had ever met before..and that is more inclusive than casual wanderers thro' Paltalk popping in for a few moments.to dazzle with their Chutzpah and skills.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: nutty
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 05:42 PM

That was not the point I was making Micca - I was taking Diva to task for saying that "apart for a very few notable exceptions, the standard has been crap" I'm sure such sentiments would make a nervous performer even more nervous - closed room or not.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Diva
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 05:46 PM

Nutty, I did not wish to cause offence but I am bluntly honest. I have been singing for over 20 years and have earned the respect of those singers who really matter to me and yes, I too have my crap moments. I may refer to some of these people as crap and as singing crap songs but I also believe they have every right to sing them. Just as I have every right not to listen if I choose. I do hope this clarifies the situation.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: death by whisky
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 05:55 PM

....SH*T,DAMN AND BLAST,BLOODY HELL.wHOOPS Sorry.still cant get good reception,so all this is a bit meaningless to me until I can actually PARTICIPATE.hONESTLY folks tis getting a bit frustrating not being able to join in.One thing I like to do and that is perform.Ther isnt a bush big enough to hide my light under.....GOOD GRIEF I'm on a roll today.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 06:05 PM

Veteran Mudcatters have NOT been in the same place new members are now-- Mudcat has changed quite a bit, a bit at a time as you see it, but it can be very confusing to be new here now.

I agree with the person who said this is like any church... all the archtypes are right here, with people who might seem to believe in defending each OTHER's viewpoints arguing for their own instead. It's the old, old story of tradition entrenched without seeing that it has become entrenched> It becomes patronizing with no one meaning for it to come across that way. People defend their motives without seeing the effect they are having despite those wonderful motives.

These are not easy things to hear in any organization. Being open to what people are seeing and saying in this thread would be a good idea if one is truly committed to an open Mudcat. For some of the veterans here have now begun sounding like the people they themselves used to chafe against, when the previous group of oldtimers wanted to keep their good-old, "we've-always-done- it-this-way" days.

In a growing community, the veterans in leadership need the maturity to learn from their juniors, as well as assuming that of course the juniors are learning from them-- if they wish to retain the respect necessary to function as leaders. Saying one is picking up the marbles and going home does not come across like that kind of maturity, even if it is sometimes mere venting in order to ghet one's thinking cleared back up.

This issue typifies a lot of Mudcat issues. It would be nice to see the lure of PalTalk sparking a new level of understanding, because it would help move the other issues forward as well.

I would ask that you stop to consider the wisdom of Mary of Kentucky, who despite her own challenges offers herself as one leader in this issue, in the way she has defined leadership for herself. You know what I mean-- you know what the song circles mean to her. This kind of uproar over how to continue them... it's unseemly. Far better to put the focus on what each has gained from these opportunities, and look forward to new ways of managing the resource so it can be even more wonderful as time goes on.

This thread should not be about who is right. You all are! It is about realizing that if each one really is right, an integrated NEW solution needs to come to the fore that will serve ALL.

Keep in mind if you would, also, that some of us can't even DO PalTalk right now. To hear you all bickering over how to continue it-- you don't know how lucky you are. Try giving it up for a month or two, then and see how you feel about the importance of who is right, who is being misrepresented or misunderstood, who is making the decisions. And then organize a PalTalk Town Meeting about it IN PALTALK instead of using this inadequate text medium to talk about matters of the heart.

May reasoned minds prevail, and unsettled hearts calm.

~Susan

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 06:07 PM

Did someone up there say this wasn't divisive? HAHAHAH!

I'll be in the crap room with the other turds. :-)

(Keeping mouth shut about everything else, because I'm not sure if I can put my feelings into words yet, and I know they wouldn't be nice if I tried.)

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: nutty
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 06:13 PM

Such "honesty" invariably causes offence Diva.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 07:47 PM

Micca I was at Llansock I and I agree that it was like meeting friends but I didn't find the thoughts of trying to sing or play in front of them easy - I found it absolutely nerve wracking. I find singing to strangers who can have absolutely no expectations of me far easier.

Diva, I disagree with your assesment of the standard in the open room. The only real difference I have noticed is that the "outsiders" tend to bring in more diversity which IMO is a good thing.

The other thing the "outsiders" have brought in has been more cotinuity in music being played/sung. I used to loath the long silent spells in Hearme where he only purpose the room seemed to be used for was a text chat. Of course if someone dared to sing 3 or 4 songs to break this silence in the freindly room, they ran the risk of being accused of hogging the mic.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Diva
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 08:24 PM

Perhaps like Midchuck I should have used the word "horrible" and not the word "crap" to my mind they are one and the same but I know that the pedants out there will kindly explain it. I have made a great many new friends during my time on Mudcat and for that I am thrilled and I would much rather listen to people I consider friends than strangers wandering in with kareoke machines and suchlike. If that makes me intolerant then so be it. To Jon and Dave (tam) and Nynia and all the other admins you did a grand job and I hope you will continue to do so.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:01 PM

I'd rather have the occasional stranger coming in an missunderstanding what the room is about. There have been cases where karaoke sings who have been told that was not what the way the room was about have sung unaccompanied, have done a great job and even found that they could do something they were nervous about... really horrible!

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:16 PM

Fuck it all. I am so sick of the sniping going on between the two "factions", those wanting the closed room and those wanting the open room. Aren't we supposed to be friends here? If not friends at the very least adults! Fuck. My post earlier was designed to show how fucking stupid and childish this bickering actually is. I can see my point did not get across. Maybe with a fucking miracle this point will: If this bullshit does not stop, I just might wash my hands of the whole fucking thing. Your bloody choice.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:44 PM

Well, as the paltalk program won't load on my computer, I suppose I won't be joining either faction.:>}

Have fun...

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:55 PM

LEJ, you will be joining a growing number of people including DaveO and BillD who can't get Paltalk to work. I still feel that PalTalk is the best program available to us but I really wish someone could get to the bottom of this.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: leah--
Date: 05 Feb 01 - 11:46 PM

Hello from a "newbie" I would just like to say that (in my humble opinion) to be part of mudcat has once again let me appreciate the traditional songs that were once a part of my life. Thank you kindly to the ones that have made it all possible on Paltalk. (and yes I am one of those that stumbled onto your room) This discussion has rendered me speechless as it seems to have gotten personal in how people are writing. I for one joined your forum because I found the peacefulness of the room wonderful. If I am attacked for saying what I wish then I would for one be ashemed to admit that I belonged to such a group. Was not the purpose of Paltalk to enjoy and be listened to. Let us keep with the purpose of whichever room anyone chooses to relax and have some fun...be it with friends or otherwise. I say *hoorah* for the ones that are @ in any room as it is more work than anyone realises! I will continue to enjoy whichever room I choose be it mudcat or otherwise.(freedom of choice is marvelous!) Best of luck in the future....hopefully I will continue to listen to the talent in each room when I come calling. A freedom of choice lover!

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: wdyat12
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 12:01 AM

"Can't we all just get along?" wdyat12

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:02 AM

nutty- please note that the "honesty" in your first post to this thread, also caused offence.

leah--, thank you.

Noreen

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: nutty
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:24 AM

I am aware of that Noreen and thought that it had been addressed and resolved - obviously not - but whichever way I'm really tired of this and will be making no further comment

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:26 AM

Fair comment leah but you seem to be overlooking the fact that most of this argument has involved ultimately deciding on an open or closed room and that the current system as far as I am aware involves opening the rooms on alternative days. This does not represent freedom of choice at all.

If the ultimate descision is to go closed, you would not have got here to say what you did and even if the alternating move remains in place, your chance of getting here would have been reduced (and when you did find us, you would probably be suspscious of a group that was open one day and closed the next.

Personally, I have nothing against the 2 rooms running side by side although I am not sure that we have ssuffient numbers to support both.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: alison
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:27 AM

leah... you are one of the many talents that we would never have met if the room had been closed....... and I'm honoured to have heard you, and the others......

this discussion forum is open to anyone, sure we've had people we don't like, and people who didn't like us... but they move on...... if this had been a closed site... think of all the friends we would never have met... the music rooms are the same.........

I like to think that all that admins (myself included) have done a great job, in getting the rooms going, keeping the momentum, and on the very odd occasions doing a bit of bouncing.........

and I don't really see the point in giving out the password.... eg. it starts out with a group of catters... then I invite my friend in who plays folk.... (he now has the password).... my friend then passes it on to his friend who only plays heavy metal..... but he wants to join in.. and gives the password to his mates.... then we're in the position of having a room filled with strangers again... and we need a new password...

no matter how safe you think a locked room is... sooner or later it won't be ........

it is a shame that it has come to this....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Katcina
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 11:15 AM

To all Mudcatters:

In some ways I am sorry that I ever posted this thread to thank all of those, including but not exclusively Nathan, David and Sandy, for all the work they have contributed to trying to keep all Mudcatters happy.

Jon and Dave started with a wonderful idea and it is a shame that there has been so much turmoil over something so beautifully inspired. I still thank everyone who has contributed to Mudcat and the Pal Talk experience in particular. I for one am very appreciative of all of your efforts.

This is my last posting to this thread and the rest of you can continue to bicker among yourselves instead of giving thanks where thanks is due and trying to help keep our spirit fresh and alive.

Sincerely, Katcina

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 11:54 AM

Not quite true Katcina, the idea came from the original Hearme setup which was first suggested buy Jim (JAB) and I got involved to help sort out some technical problems. I hosted the room on my web space for some time and although I had intended handing over at some point, I got out after a big row involving whether to use a separate room or a private room for functions that excluded certain members for some reason or other (little changes round here) and Aine took over.

Aine's room worked well for some time but the room eventually became unstable and a few of us became concerned about the future of Hearme and it was then that I decided to come back in and help set up a replacement room. After some investigation I felt that PalTalk provided the best solution and proposed a trial.

It was then that Dave (mainly others helped to) came in and we tried to make something workable. We also saw the advantages PalTalk had and that we could make a room open for all and the room became a great success.

In that time, I have had to put up wih numerous complaints about how much better Hearme was as a package (even though Paltalk is technically superior and offers admin facilities) and other winges such as he open vs closed room and quite frankly I am sick of it.

I am sure that Nynia opened the Snug with the best of intentions but it re-opened the open vs closed debate with the we want one or other but not both and the end peace making move has been to alternate between open and closed so is currently at least 1/2 way away from our original intentions with the chance that it might go fully that way.

I have seen the same thing happen in folk clubs and sessions that I have started, battle though the early stages, get something good going and then the wingers who have done fuck all to help want a hand in and change things to work their way.

This whole business makes me sick and I feel I have every rights to be mad. Next time people want help or direction in setting something up, they can fuck off.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 12:57 PM

katlaughing has raised 2 points with me in a PM and I feel it is in order for me to state this.

kat in fact defended someone when they were accused of mic hogging so if I gave the impression the otherway, I apologise.

She was also concerned about my "doing fuck all statement". When I first created the PalTalk room, I left a question open to all here where it is quite clear that I tried to raise the open/ closed issue together with other issues right from the start and had hoped that others would pass opinions. The lack of comment in the following posts should say a lot.

The reality was that few people said anything and descisions and most comments that were made were in Paltalk itself where the overall opinion was to go open and Dave Tam was the only person to offer an opinion over ratings.

The room was built around the choices made at that time and even though I was strongly in favour of an open room, would have considered a change to suit a majority.

I repeat, there were very few who helped in the early stage and most of the moans or objections have come from people who played no part in the initial desicsions taken to get things going.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:16 PM

All of you...

I haven't been able to get into any Paltalk sessions, but I did attend several Hearme sessions, and always found the atmosphere friendly and encouraging. This positive attitude, to me, is something that distinguishes traditional music from other forms. I think anyone who has expressed a hostile attitude on this thread would have a very difficult time doing the same in a session, because the music tends to raise us above that level. Why not approach the problems with Paltalk rooms in the same way we approach other Mudcat issues, through constructive dialog and creative problem solving? I realize Jon and Dave have invested time and energy in putting Paltalk together, but I'm sure they would listen to suggestions on improvement if those suggestions are justified.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Morticia
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:26 PM

I cannot for the life of me understand why this has to be an either/or issue, nor can I understand why some appear to have chosen to take it as a personal slur on them.To those who say they prefer not to choose between an open and a closed room, well, at the risk of stating the obvious, life's like that sometimes.For those who prefer one or the other, surely to Christ we can provide that and congratulate ourselves that all tastes are being met? What the hell is the problem? My preference is for a closed room.....I don't need to excuse or defend that and I'm delighted to have a choice.......end of story.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:51 PM

Jon, you say: The lack of comment in the following posts should say a lot.

What it says to me is that we had no evidence or experience, then,on which to base a decision. Some of us now have such, and have made a decision based on that. I didn't realise there would be a cut-off date...

And I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist copying this from the top of the thread Jon linked to:

Subject: RE: Hearme-Paltalk New Hearme Now
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08-Nov-00 - 04:25 PM

This site works well but when we set up a hearme session we should make the room private, because there were some unpleasant visitors when Jacko and I tried it..

Noreen

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 02:27 PM

Noreen, there never was a cut off date. This issue has been discussed several times. This time there was no discussion, simply a descision to 1/2 the number of nights the open room was available to appease everyone.

As I have said several times over: I RAISE NO OBJECTIONS TO AN ADDITIONAL CLOSED ROOM AND HAVE HAD MANY DISCUSSIONS ON THE OPEN/CLOSED ROOM.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 02:33 PM

And Noreen, what Dave's post you have quoted says to me is that he, like myself and others had no experience but were willing to make choices, put our heads on the chopping block, admit to mistakes, ec. to get things started.

Jon

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 03:24 PM

Forgive me I am not adding flames to the fire here. Jon is quite right, after that post he showed me how to admin the room and it changed my whole opinion. We also asked everyone about the closed /open issue and the consensus from the users was "open" Shortly after that we had a discussion on room rating and General was chosen. After some people expressed dislike we changed it to "R" The room has functioned very well as such. Experience has shown us that you just cannot please everyone, and if you want exclusive, open your own chat/music room.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 03:24 PM

Morticia, I think it becomes an either/or situation when we realize that we just don't have the man/woman power to keep two rooms open with about ten singers 24 hours a day. If anyone is willing to help out as Dave, Jon, Jacko, Nynia and Katcina have by serving as admins for countless hours...or as Bigchuck has by constantly promoting and organizing concerts...then step up to the mike!

As I said before, this is all new to me. I love the spontaneity, but I'm selfish enough to want my ten favorite singers performing without a pause at precisely the hour I happen to drop in.

BTW, Musicman was on a roll last night. Too bad we're in different time zones as I had to leave before he did.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Greyeyes
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 05:14 PM

I've really enjoyed my visits to Paltalk. Most of the time I don't know who is a mudcatter and who isn't, many people have had to change their usual Mudcat name, and I can't get there often enough to recognise all the regulars. I don't always understand all the in jokes and banter in the text, but I go to hear the music, so who cares. Very occasionally an admin, usually Dave or Jon, has coaxed me to sing. I'm not a musician, or a singer, I'm just a bloke, who when sufficiently tanked up, can sometimes be talked into grinding out an old favourite. Someone has already mentioned that it is often easier to sing in front of strangers than friends, and I can only concur. People have been very kind, and not left in droves.

Once, a few months ago, when I was particularly tired and emotional, Dave (The Ancient Mariner) sang a song so beautiful I was left speechless. I think I typed something fatuous in the text like "You've just made my weekend Dave", and I remember Jon commenting "Greyeyes has said it for all of us". But that doesn't even begin to express what I actually felt at the time. It was a fleeting moment in my life, but one I shall carry with me forever. Dave, thank you so much for that fleeting moment, I hope we are able to share many more in the future.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: harpgirl
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 10:11 PM

...I just read this thread because Alison ICQ"d me and mentioned that it was like the mess I created when I insisted on using our old Hearme room for women's concerts during off time. I won't go into why I actually did that. It is for another discussion in another thread!!!

ButI want to add my opinion here since I enjoy Paltalk song sessions. I am at the point where I think that an open room is okay: mainly, because the argument that folk music should be open to all is a pretty compelling one. But I like one room for Mudcat. It seems to be the best way to have live, folk music by people who like that idiom.

I just went into the "Mudcat Tavern" not knowing what it was and someone was playing some recorded music. I just don't want to listen to that. I like to hear my friends sing songs that I might find in the DT. I wish we could have a closed room so that people would have to kind of get into Mudcat before they join us. But I go with the majority at this point. It seems to be that Mudcat SongCircle should be open. As for the other rooms; too much diversity for me. I want "folk" only by the "folks" I've gotten to know.

And thanks to our adminstrators for their work. If outsiders come in and get acclimated to our calm, polite talk and sing folk songs, I like meeting new people I guess. I don't like the whooping and hollering, which seems to be something that has become a norm for interaction in Paltalk. Just my two cents.....harp

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: IvanB
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 10:31 PM

harpgirl, I was in the room when this happened. You left too soon to see the outcome, which was that Katcina, as room administrator, allowed the person (who was singing to a karaoke track) to finish her number and gently told her what the room was all about. Kat encouraged her to stay and sing a cappella if she couldn't accompany herself on a instrument, and she ended up singing several more that were very enjoyable.

I'll admit that the room is a bit wilder tonight than I've seen it in a long time, but everyone still seems to be having a good time.

Subject: RE: MUDCAT TAVERN/MUDCAT SNUG BAR
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 11:08 PM

...Once again...step up to the mike, we need singers.

I have a good excuse for being just a listener, I simply can't sing. But believe me, if I could, I'd have a thousand songs!