Acoustic Pickup??

Subject: Acoustic Pickup??
From: Stonewall
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

Hi all. I've got a brand new Martin HD-28LSV guitar. Bluegrass is my first love/addiction, but I also do some country Gospel in church. I would like a pickup that uses an external preamp so that nothing is done to the body except at the endpin where the jack will be. I am looking for something that will preserve my great bluegrass machine when it is unplugged but that will allow me to be heard with the piano and bass at church. Any recommendations? Thanks.

Stonewall

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 01:59 PM

Get the Fishman Rare Earth; it sounds great, is pretty much self contained, fits neatly in the sound hole, and is very unintrusive - you'll only cut to put in an endpin jack.

You might also read through this thread. It has some interesting discussion on the subject.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

by the way, the Fishman matrix is also a good pick-up, but would require and a bit of wood work to install. I use a Rare Earth in my Santa Cruz 000. I bought it because I did not want to cut the guitar, but I have been very very happy with the sound.

Fishman also makes a Rare Earth blender pick up, which uses a condesnor mic in addition to the mageneic pick-up. I suspect you'd be happy with out the mic, but that may depend upon your applictaion.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:43 PM

Congratulations on the Martin -- great guitar. Acoustic pickup preference is a recurring topic around here. I'll add my vote to Jed's for the Rare Earth. I use the blender model myself (see my posting in the thread he referred you to for particulars of how I run the signal), but I agree with Jed that the non-blender model could also work pretty well for you.

You'll find there is a range of opinions out there about pickups in general, and the under-saddle pickups (like the Fishman Matrix) in particular. I don't like the under-saddle ones so much, especially if you're going to be picking/strumming hard; the rubber-band twang that they can produce is accentuated by hard picking, to the point of being pretty un-musical a lot of the time. But the quality of the sound you get with one of these can vary a great deal depending on the particular instrument, how well the pickup is installed, and what you run it through. The wood work involved is minimal -- just a matter of pulling out the bridge saddle and drilling a small hole underneath for the wiring to pass through (and possibly shaving the bridge saddle down a little to compensate for the additional thickness of the pickup under the saddle). Still, if you're going to go that route I would take it to someone you trust; as I said, the quality of the installation matters, and you don't want to hand your precious Martin over to just anybody.

Everyone will tell you the same thing -- no pickup sounds quite as good as your natural guitar sound. But in consideration of all the trade-offs, the options outlined here make sense to me. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: UB Ed
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:59 PM

Martin thin lines work great in my Martins

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From:
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM

I've had good luck with the Fishman Matrix, I think its called the gold series, semi-active, with the 9V battery. For an external preamp I use the Fisman Pro-EQ. The combination of these two components works great. This stuff was pretty stste of the art a few years back, but there's probably a lot better available now. I have a friend who swears by the LL Baggs blender system--both condenser mic and under-saddle.

Enjoy the new axe!

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:47 PM

The 'blender system' implies the use of a mic and a pick-up, and the sound is blended between the two, bu you, the plicker - that is it is a setting on the guitar. The pick-up gives you a strong clean signal, with little noise and less feedback problem - the mic gives you a more natural sound, but can introduce some noise or feedback. The blenders typically require more wood work 'surgery' in that some place a modest sized electronics control panel in the rim of the guitar, and the under saddle pick-up requires the woodwork explained by Whistle Stop above.

If you are unwilling to have the saddle worked on, but you still ike the idea of using a mic and a pick-up then the Fishman Rare Earth blender is a great choice. Frankly, I suspect it's a great choice anyway. No cutting, except for reboring for a larger end pin.

But I must say, I am not convinced that a blender is important. The Rare Earth has an excellent sound by itself, though it is a bit 'electric' sounding, as any pick-up will be. If you wish to blend, a mic on a stand can always be used which gives you additional flexibility because you can move close, move away, as you wish to affect the mic's signal.

I like the idea of the blender pick-ups; I just can't help remembering why I use a pick-up instead of a mic in the first place. I typically deal with a wide variety of sound stage settings. Different rooms, different stage sets, instrument mics almost require a sound man working the mixer - and some experience at coping with the problems mics introduce; levels, feedback, placement, EQ, overall balance. Pick-ups greatly reduce those complexities.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: Musicman
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:10 PM

as jed says..:

fishman rare earth blender.....

i use it, love it, great sound from it, and very unobtrusive when not in use.......

musicman

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:09 AM

I use the Rare Earth Blender (magnetic humbucking pickup with an internal condenser mic on a small gooseneck which comes off the bottom of the pickup housing, inside the guitar) in both of my principal acoustic guitars. But Jed makes a good point about whether the on-board blender system is really all it could be. I tend to use about 75% pickup and 25% mic under ideal circumstances, but if I'm on a loud stage I often find that I have to dial out the mic altogether, and just use the pickup signal. Even with the ideal 75/25 split, the microphone is not all it could be, largely because of where it is -- inside the guitar body. Jed's approach of using the Rare Earth pickup-only model in conjunction with a mic on a stand is likely to produce a better sound. The only drawback is that this forces you to stand still -- which some of us have a problem with. But if you can handle it, it might be a good way to go. It also allows you, as he said, to lean into the mic a little more when you want to add emphasis.

Another option, which I have not tried, is the latest generation of Rare Earth Blenders. These actually have the microphone on a detachable gooseneck suspended above the strings, not inside the body of the guitar. Anyone have any experience with these?

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:45 AM

I haven't seen the extrnal gooseneck thing for the Rare Earth. How is it hooked up?

As far as having to stand still, I have to stand kinda still anyway for the vocal mic ... and I usually only use the instrument mic for 'flavor' - and a boost when I play a solo, so I feel free to wander a bit, probably drives the sound man crazy, but it works for me!

I must say though, the Rare Earth (sans mic) really did surprise me with its qualities. It has a touch of the warm electric sound you would expect from a magnetic pick-up, but it has a clean string signal and it produces some very fine, true acoustic qualities too. My first impression was that 'yes it sounds like a pick-up' but 'wow, what a pretty sound!' I really have been very happy with it. I would definately consider using it in another guitar.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:55 AM

The new Rare Earth superdeluxe (or whatever they call it) has a detachable gooseneck that slides into a fitting on the top side of the magnetic pickup, rather than underneath, and therefore it's suspended above the strings over the upper end of the fretboard. It's a little weird to look at, but the theory seems to have merit, since this is more or less where you might aim an outboard condenser mic. Don't know how it sounds in practice, but it's intriguing.

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: BlueJay
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 05:32 AM

I still say Pick-Up The World has the best sounding acoustic pickup available at any price. That, of course is my biased opinion.
Their versatility, however, is undisputed so far. There is no other company which can amplify probably 95% of the world's acoustic instruments, from kalimbas to pianos, mandolins to drums using only a few different models in various configurations.
The clarity and accuracy of the sound, without the piezo "quack", has been remarkable and consistent on all the instruments I've heard or played. That includes mandolins, violins, cellos, autoharps, concert harps and many, many guitars, as well as some intruments whose names I do not know. Even a didgeridoo, once, as if those things needed amplification.

The word is getting around. At the winter NAMM show, the Fishman folks were snooping around the PUTW booth, but kept their distance, from reports. Several studios are using them for recording, and Steve Klein, a well respected luthier, is one of a growing number of builders incorporating PUTW into some models.

Stonewall- it might be worth your while to check out Pick-Up The World Hope I got the link right. My son in law owns the company, so I can say firsthand that customer service is their top priority. Unequalled anywhere, from what I've seen. Satisfaction guaranteed, and they really mean it. Toll free tech support is always available. Check the website for contact info. Or anyone can feel free to PM me, and I'll help if I can with questions, advice or even orders. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Acoustic Pickup??
From: Stonewall
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:52 AM

Thanks for all the help, folks. I'm talking with a local luthier about this and he is recommending the LRBaggs double-barrel system. It is similar to the Fishman system used by Doc Watson. I just sent an email to Pick Up the World and asked which one of their products they would recommend. Have a good one!

Stonewall