Need pick-up advice--

Subject: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 02:56 PM

I was asked to accompany a singer for a song at an outdoor event--she asked me to use an acoustic 12-string that I generally just use for fooling around(all I do anymore, I haven't performed for about 10 years) and I am trying to figure out how to amplify the thing--it has various combinations of bridge pick-ups and little microphones have been suggested, but this isn't an ideal performance situation, and I am thinking, the simpler, the better---my thought is just to pop a Duncan Woody Humbucking in and plug it directly into the PA, figuring that there are way fewer things that can go wrong--so far, the only one that likes this idea is me--any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Spartacus
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:01 PM

I hate to say this, but in my experience, the best way to amplify a guitar (for good sound quality) is to mic it. I'm not sure why you say it's not ideal "performance wise". The only reason I use a pick up is because I move around so much when I play. If you have to use a sound hole pick up, (most sound lousy) I would use the "rare earth" model. Otherwise, bum a decent condenser mic from someone, and run it into a board. Good Luck.

-Spartacus

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:13 PM

Here's a thread
Here's another
And another one
Or how about here?


Confused yet? WE've had lots of great discussion besides these, but that's a pretty good sampling. (:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:20 PM

Rats. I thought this was a singles' advice thread.

Alex

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:22 PM

Basically, we'll be on an open stage at the end of a parking lot--no chance for soundcheck, it'll be basically a plug and play situation--no time to work out feedback problems, and no chance to practice away the string noises and such--As per the Rare Earth, this is basically a favor, can't afford to buy an expensive pick-up for it--

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Spartacus
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:30 PM

I've only really had feed back problems when amps are behind mics, and when I have mics too close together. (pick up mics and vocal mics). I don't know all of the details, but I would defintely try to mic your guitar if you dont't plan on singing.

P.S. What do you mean you won't just go out and buy an expensive pick up to play at a friends show....you've probably been foolishly squandering your salary on things like food, and rent. =)

-spartacus

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:32 PM

mousethief ... gigs are great places for meeting people, so you may well be right ....

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:34 PM

Well said, Guest.

Alex

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:46 PM

Hi Ted. Throw the Woodie in and go to town. You can (well I have anyway) spend close to a thousand dollars on amplification for one acoustic and end up with a sound that's maybe 15% better than what you're gonna get already. If you're doing it on a regular basis, the Fishman Rare Earth Blender system has been far and away the best thing I've come across.....but it's still only marginally better than a cheap De-Armond from 40 years ago. God doesn't WANT acoustics to be REALLY loud!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:50 PM

Or why not just stick it in front of a Shure?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:52 PM

Spartacus--

And pants with bigger waists to accomodate all that food I've been eating!--Of course, the singer didn't understand why I wouldn't pop for the PA, since the 10-piece band she usually works with, provides one--by the by, we are doing Billie Holiday stuff, so it is all closed position--stuff I would have played on my electric archtop, except the singer liked it better on the twelve--

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Spartacus
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 03:58 PM

Dont let those singers push you around...show up with a ukelele, and if she does'nt like it, tell her to play it herself... Then offer a "compromise" and use the archtop. =)

-spartacus

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:29 PM

Rick, thanks for your thoughts, no offense to anyone else, but I am most interested in your advice, it is somehow reassuring to know that all the fancy new electronic stuff is only marginally better than the old stuff, anyway,--as to you, S'paw, closed position jazz chords on an acoustic twelve can easily end up sounding like an oatmeal box full of Mason Jar lids when you move too far away from a mike--

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 04:30 PM

Spartacus--

Too late, I tried the ukulele ruse already!

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Mooh
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 08:12 PM

M Ted,

If you lived closer, I could offer you the loan of a soundhole humbucker which has bailed me out when my other system went for a crap. Maybe some other friend, closer by, has something they'd loan you. While you're borrowing things, try to squeak in a preamp, a simple plug in and play thing. If you have to buy a Woody (or whatever), it'll be a handy thing to have around for the next time you gotta do this.

Good luck.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:19 PM

Someone is actually lending me the Woody, I do have a pre-amp that I can use--I had an old Dimarzio on this instrument, but it had a short in it--thanks for the tip--

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 12:44 AM

Good, you have a pre-amp. That was my only concern with the Seymour Duncan Woody. I have one, and the sound is completely adequate for the job you describe. I really like my Baggs Dual Source that I have in my twelve string. I can mix in the internal mic and get a very nice song that reveals the balance and voice of my Guild 12. But obviously that isn't what you are after.

Give 'em hell, M. Ted. And get back to performing. Based on your posts here, you have much to offer.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 01:42 AM

Ya' know Ted you hadn't said WHAT you were playing at that point so you can just kiss my woody!!!!..........If I can still get a woody..........

Spaw(:<))

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: mooman
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 04:23 AM

I'd go with Spaw after trying out most of the systems on the market at one time or another. Shure SM57 it for simplicity and good sound with Spartacus's advice thrown in to prevent feedback problems!

Best regards and good luck!

mooman

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: English Jon
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 06:32 AM

SM57 would be O.K. Or Schaller do a couple of cheap bugs, a stick on "oyster" or a sound hole pick up, both of which are O.K.

Cheapest solution is probably to just borrow an electric guitar though!!! ;) Have fun,

Cheers, Jon

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 08:23 AM

It sounds like maybe a stellar sound is not really required on this gig -- no sound check, end of the parking lot, playing closed position chords on a 12-string, etc. With all the compromises you're forced to accept already, it may be best just to go with whatever option is easiest.

As has so often been said, acoustic guitar pickups are all about compromises. I have Rare Earth Blends installed in both of my main acoustic guitars (Lowden and Larrivee), and I agree with Rick that they are the best things I've come across so far, when I consider the compromises I'm forced to make -- the quest for a reasonably authentic acoustic tone with no "quack" (I HATE the undersaddle quack!) and some ability to work the dynamics, being balanced against my desire for mobility on stage, a relatively simple setup, and the need for good feedback resistance (with the option to dial out the condenser mic altogether in high-volume situations). But I also agree with him that the improvement in sound over older soundhole pickups is marginal; this is not the Holy Grail.

For your upcoming accompaniment gig, if you have choices, I probably would not opt for the Duncan Woody. On 12-strings, you can often run into problems with soundhole magnetic pickups, which respond better to the unwound octave strings than they do to the wound strings, giving you kind of an unnatural sound (if you choose, you can go with nickel-steel strings to reduce this; the GHS "White Bronze" sets are one option). Since you'll be outdoors in a parking lot, my guess is that feedback will be less of an issue than it would be if you were in an enclosed space where all the sound waves bounce around; in my experience, outdoor gigs are somewhat more forgiving when it comes to feedback. So I would probably recommend sticking a mic in front of your guitar -- SM57, SM58, or really anything you've got (yeah, it restricts your mobility, but I assume you're not going to be doing Pete Townshend leaps playing closed-position jazz chords anyway). I'd probably bring the Woody along as well, and maybe have it plugged in just in case the mic starts to howl at you, so you can do a quick channel switch at the board and keep on playing. Also, one thing you can do to help with feedback is, if you have separate monitors, put the pickup through the monitors and the mic through the mains. If you'd rather stay away from a mic altogether, a contact piezo is another option (position it ahead of time in the privacy of your own home so you can find the "sweet spot").

I'm sure the gig will go fine; my guess is that neither your singer nor your audience will know the difference, no matter what pickup you use. Have fun.

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 11:17 AM

Ted, one of the many (time wasting?) experiments I've tried over the years, was taking my fifteen year old Takamine 12 string (the best I've come up with after years of Martins, Gibson, Epiphone, Guilds, Harmonys, Larrivee etc,) and hooking it up to every pickup and amplification system I've got (and that is a LOT)

My oldest pick-up is a De-Armond soundhole antique, that was probably made around 1960. With the VERY low tuning I use (Bb to Bb) it was loud bassy and a bit over the top on the unwound octave string (3rd) and the second pair (until I replace those with very light wound strings.

Same with the Seymour Duncan "Tube". (much newer and about fifty bucks)

Same with the Sunrise (state of the art for a lot of folks) and very expensive.

The "Pick up The World" was more natural, but tons of funny overtones and the top became so alive that the slightest movement could be heard quite audibly.

LR Baggs, was fine when strummed, but any picking seemed to produce a lot of funny harmonics.

Fishman Rare Earth (without the Blender). Not bad. A bit more definition than other magnetic pickups, but still a bit unbalanced re: the unwound strings.

Rare Earth with blender: Best yet. I give it just enough 'mike' to take the 'electric' sound off, and even out the unwound strings.

Gotta say, that if your 12 is tuned to pitch and you've got a sound person who 'THINKS' like an acoustic musician, than a good ol' 57 will do the job fine, but since I've dealt with a lot of sound people who DON'T think subtlety is important, I try to take no chances.

Last week I did a concert where I knew the reputation of the sound people....so I didn't even plug the 12 string in. I was right....they nailed it perfectly....'course the sound guy is a DOBRO player, and probably hasn't even OWNED a Les Paul!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 11:58 AM

Just got the Woody, plugged it in, and am very pleased--got out the old Shure mikes to see how they compared--the Woody wins--I got much better definition on the bottom notes, and good, bright, chords(important, because, as you remember, the singer is used to having a horn section sound on the rhythm chords)--I will admit that, flatpicking on open chords, the Woody doesn't deliver much of the acoustic sound, and tends to be too raw, but, at least for this outing, that won't be an issue--

BigMick, thanks for the kind words, I wish I had time to perform again, but it isn't in the cards, at least for a while--

S'Paw, if Bob Dole can get one, I am sure you can, too! (I met his wife earlier this year, and I don't know how he does it!)

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 12:17 PM

Yeah but ol' Bob owes (or blames) it all on the NYCFTTS, The Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed. The Center is paid for by the CIA who use it to train crazed tiple bands for the overthrow of world governments. The assassination thing wasn't working out too well for them so they started using crazed tiple bands instead. For instance, the reason Elizabeth Dole did not run for president here is a direct result. See, her husband Bob, the long time Senator and previous prez hopeful has now taken to advertizing the "Tragedy and Courage of Erectile Dysfunction" and the CIA sent in a tiple band which played the Oscar Mayer Wiener ditty and sent the ol' guy running through Rock Creek Park in his flapping boxers screaming, "I GOT WOOD!!! IT'S A WOODY!!!!"

No idea on what they used to mic the tiples..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 02:19 PM

Rick, if you know what you're doing, it often doesn't matter what equipment you use, you can find a way to make things work--Uncle Albert used to play an old Kay archtop thru a Silvertone amp, the sound was great, but it embarassed the hell out of many of his too, too, hip SF jazz guitar students. Turns out he had a number of fine instruments, either in the closet or, more often, half taken apart on the workbench, waiting for a critical missing part--

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Mooh
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 02:45 PM

Ted,

Sounds like you got it licked!

As an aside to all this, the reason I use the DiMarzio humbucker on the 12 string (instead of the Dean Markley or Barcus-Berry) is that it has adjustable pole pieces which allow me to tweak the string balance a bit. This doesn't completely rid me of the octave string problem I think Whistle Stop was mentioning but it helps alot. Nothing beats a good mic (I currently use a Sennheiser), but a magnetic pu will be a good safety net in a pinch. Also in my kit is a stomp box variety eq, which goes well with the soundhole pu.

I'll compromise alot on equipment when it comes to those one-off, lousy room, short set type of gigs, because less time gets wasted on gear and more time is spent playing.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 05:54 PM

And what would you be singing this evening my lovely :-)

Never works - but what the hey

Nice thread!

I use a Shure SM-57 and a piezo strip of unknown origin - between the two it works great and I've got maybe $40 invested.

Steve

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 06:11 PM

Stand in front of a microphone. Or maybe sit - that way you stay in the one place instead of accidentally going out of range of the mike.

As you said "the simpler, the better". And after all singers seem to manage using mikes rather than electronic implants.

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 12:23 AM

Sure is lucky Les Paul never met you, Kevin--Meanwhile, the singer wants me to add "We Are Family" to the roster--

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Genie
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 09:38 PM

Whistle Stop

You wrote: "Since you'll be outdoors in a parking lot, my guess is that feedback will be less of an issue than it would be if you were in an enclosed space where all the sound waves bounce around; in my experience, outdoor gigs are somewhat more forgiving when it comes to feedback. " Did you ever play on an outdoor stage at the NW Folklife in Seattle on a windy day [especially, with a sound techie who's not used to folk music]? I've had the experience there two or three times of having the most gawdawful loud feedback when the wind gusted across the stage, not to mention having the sound fade in and blare out every time I moved

The problem I see with miked guitars is that if you haven't rehearsed and or performed with one frequently before, it's hard to get the knack while you're on stage. To me, it seems an art much more difficult to master than vocal mic technique--probably because it's easy to see your voice mic while singing, but if you're used to playing guitar by feel and looking at the audience, it's hard to keep track of the guitar mic position.

BTW, has anyone used a Dean Markley sound hole pickup, and if so, what do you think of them?

Genie

McGrath, re singers not needing "electronic implants," a lot of 'em, especially the ones who dance around a lot, use headset mics.

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 10:11 PM

Genie,

I've got a Dean Markley...um, a black wood encased one, not sure of the model number. I'm not as pleased with it as I am with the Barcus-Barry or the DiMarzio, but that largely depends on the instrument. What sounds best in one guitar won't in the next, so it's best to experiment. The DM worked well once upon a time in an older solid top Takamine I once had, but guitars are so individual I don't know whether that was the pickup or the guitar. I suggest asking a store to allow you to try several different models in your own guitar before you decide.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 12:21 AM

"Meanwhile, the singer wants me to add "We Are Family" to the roster--"

LMAO......This just gets better and better!!! Good luck my friend......I think you may need it. Any plans for Karma Chameleon for an encore perhaps? (:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Need pick-up advice--
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 08:50 AM

No Genie, I've never been to Seattle at all. I think the comment I made is more often true than not, but of course there are exceptions.

Yes, you need to pay attention to mic technique, whether you're singing or playing into one. And like anything else, trying it for the first time onstage in front of people is not ideal. Point well taken.