Brand new Pick up the world

Subject: Brand new Pick up the world
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Aug 01 - 01:07 AM

Just installed a #20 Pick-Up the World Pick Up in my Ode longneck 5. I'll try it out thursday on a job and I will report back.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 06:19 AM

The jury is still out. I like the sound but the Banjo pot mounting hook up is a little problematic.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: Allan C.
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 09:43 AM

Thanks for the info on this, Don. Bill and I saw the very early models of this product when we traveled through Colorado. I have corresponded with the company, (our own "BlueJay" works there now with his daughter, Annie, and his son-in-law, "Poo-Twa") and I have learned of the many improvements that have been made to an already impressive product. I am sure that more new developments are constantly evolving.

Could you please be a little more specific about the problems you encountered with the hook-up? My buddy, David C., is wanting to try one of these on his Flying Eagle and would like to know more about any problems that might need to be overcome. I am sure that Pick-Up the World would want to know, too. They are very accessible by phone or email.

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 09:56 AM

How does the peizo/elec tape mount the banjo, Don? On the head? On the rim?

I used a PUTW pick-up on my Backpacker (a model 27, used for small guitars, bouzoukis, etc) and got a surprisingly good sound. Like you, I had few mounting options for the cables/connectors - but managed with a bit of duct tape and some silicon adhesive.

I used a Fishman banjo pick-up for a while, but have gone back to using a mic. The banjo mics pretty well, and without the noise and feedback problems a guitar mic offers - but there are still times when I wish I had the strong 'presence' of a pick-up for the banjo.

The Fishman pick-up uses a technique similar to the magnetic pick-ups for elec guitars, but rather then base their signal on the movement of a string through a magnetic field, it used a thin metal foil taped to the under side of the banjo head, just above a magnetic pick-up mounted to the under side brackets of the banjo. The problem with this set up for me was that I could not adjust enough the critical distance between the magnetic pick-up and the foil. The truss rods to which the pick-up were mounted were apparently too close to the head and even though Fishman claimed one size fits all, I could not gain enough distance and was forced to live with low volume, high pitched hiss. I wrote to Fishman about having the pick-up's mounting brackets milled so that I could gain a bit more distance (probably only a 1/8") and they basically said don't ask, we're too busy. I gave up on the unit.

I am curious about your results with the Pick Up the World unit. Thanks for posting this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:26 AM

The one complaint I had about the PUTW unit I put on my Backpacker was that the cable also picked up a bit of sound! Since I was using Backpacker with almost no way to mount the unit internally, this was a bit of a problem. I reduced the problem by secruing the cable to the wood as firmly as possible and eliminating the recommended RCA to 1/4" adaptor (instead I used a straight RCA to 1/4" cable, no adaptor). These two steps almost entirely eliminated the problem with the cable picking up noise. I suspect that if I could have mounted the unit internally, and fixed the cables securly, I would not have had the problem to begin with.

I also used a pre-amp with this pick-up, though the mixing console had significant gain on the channel input. I presume that I had some signal loss if I ran directly to the mixer (through a 100' snake).

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:31 AM

The pickup is supplied with a mounting bracket for the 1/4" jack that will attach to the hook lugs on the pot. This is a fine set up for resonator type banjos with an internal location for the transducer. The wire is protected by the body of the banjo and the resonator. I have an open back banjo and I am fearful of damaging the wire from the transducer. By mounting inside the banjo and running the wire over the edge of the pot to the bracket location I can see an easy way to cut the wire in half first time I bump it on the floor.

I have mounted the transducer under the head between the bass and central foot on the bridge. I haven't tried other locations yet. I would mount the jack to the dowel stick but I have to create a mount. The one supplied won't work anywhere but on the hooks. By useing the hook method the lead wire is exposed to all kinds of dangers and I have a fundamental problem with using duct tape as protection.

Judging by the sound last night I imagine I will ultimately be very satisfied with the pick up. There are a few equalization problems but that is to be expected with a new pick up. Lack of experience being the big issue.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 10:35 AM

Great thread.....thanks Don, and I hope BJ shows up.....They are always wanting feedback so they can make changes and like Allan, I think they are pretty committed to building a good product.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 02:56 PM

Don I had similar mouting probs with the Fishman. It too was designed to fit all/most resonator banjos, but there was no thought given to mounting for an open back instrument. In this case, I actually made several wraps of electrical tape around the 1/4" end jack housing brackets, fastening it to one of the two truss rods that bisect the banjo ring. May look a bit odd, but it was perfectly secure, functional and provided easy access to the cable - besides; no one sees the back of my banjo. I decided against any sort of permanent mounting to the instrument.

I've written to Fishman to see if I can get their help in solving the distance issue with my pick-up - if not, I may be interested in the PUTW product.

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 31 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM

Jed,

My banjo is a wooden dowelstick type, typical open back Ode long neck. I've made a simple effective mount for that type of banjo and I am please with the way it appears to work. I'll let you know how it goes after we play a party tomorrow and The New York State Fair on Sunday. If this mount works out well I won't keep the design a secret.

Now my complaints is the availability of decent strings.

10, 26, 16, 13, 11..'s are just too lite ofr a long neck. I'd like 10, 26, 18-20, 16, 12.'s I think. Enough to sound meaty when flat picked and have a good bite when frailed.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

I have resolved the mount problem successfully with this pick up. I made an aluminum crad;le that mounts to the side of the dowel stick and hold the 1/4" jack in place quite well. I have a little more work to do on equalization and I should have this pick up solved. I am using a Barcus Berry pre-amp between me and the board and I think a better amp will work even more effectively.

No problems with feed back or line noise. But I do have a bit of a rattle now and then. Its either a loose fit in the jack or something banging directly on the head if I move just right.

I am still pleased with the sound and will keep you all who are interested posted with progress.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: BlueJay
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 03:44 AM

Don- I'm glad you got the mounting solved to your satisfaction. Give us a call we'd like to discuss it. We are dealing with placements on so many instruments that mounting is always a main concern, and there is no cure for every situation. We routinely have calls from folks wanting to mount pickups on unusual instruments, (including typewriters and ping-pong tables). We spend a lot of time addressing these questions by phone and e-mail. Frequently, people order on-line and we don't know what instrument the pickup is going to be used for. Sometimes they call, and we find that they have purchased the wrong pickup, or that it needs to be customized in some way, (lead length, output jack etc). We view this trial and error problem solving as Research and Development which will make things easier for everyone in the long run.

I don't think that any other pickup company will go to the lengths that Pick-up the World will to customize a pickup to your instrument. We want very happy customers.

A couple of suggestions regarding the rattling sound you hear occasionally. First, make sure the brass piece is firmly secured. If the output wire is twisted, it may pull on the brass piece, causing it to pull off or partially off. Make sure the output wire is twisted in a manner which pushes the brass piece down, rather than pulling it up. Usually, the brass stays down, but if it is a problem, give us a call.

Also, make sure the output wire is not rubbing against any banjo parts. The wire has a certain "pickup" property of it's own, and vibrating against braces, etc, can cause the rattles you describe.

Your EQ problems are interesting. Pre-amps designed by ordinary piezo pickup companies tend to be colored in an attempt to compensate for the "quack" inherent in their pickups. I think this is where your problem lies. Most folks with Pick-up the World pickups don't have to use any EQ, they just run it flat, for the best natural tone. We can definitely help you solve this. Please, give us a call. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM

Thanks Bluejay,

I'll send you an ODE-A-MATIC Dowel stick mount. The equalization problem I seem to be having can be all kinds of places, none directly attributable to the pick up.

My monitor could be equalized to high. My partial deafness has me hearing things a little flukey (High frequencies are stronger with my hearing.) . The channel the banjo goes into is controled by a bass player and you know what pinheads they can be. They really are just drummers with strings.

I am just a bit critical when it comes to sound.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM

BlueJay - how different is the banjo pickup from the model 27?

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM

I didn't like the sound tonight and think its a problem with the sound man, not the [pick up. Also, we played just awful so I can't count tonight in my evaluation. The new mount worked great and I'll send one out to Pick Up the World for their edification and enjoyment.

I'll try another location on the head as well. I want a meatier sound. Any suggestions.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: BlueJay
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:03 AM

Watch out Don, I'm a bass player! :) (Kind of by default, though. And I'm actually having a good time playing bass with our band, D&A. Fortunately, I don't run the sound).

Give a call and talk to David. He can usually troubleshoot system difficulties really well. It would be easier on the phone. Placement is another issue, and the sound is such a subjective thing. You might want to try the pickup a little closer to the bass bridge foot. You can move the pickup as many times as you would like, and you will get a different sound with each placement. Everyone has different ears, so it is impossible to simply state, "Put it here". There are too many variables. That's why we are only a phone call away. The phone bill is horrendous, but we absolutely delight in helping people get the best sound from their instruments that they have ever heard.

I am anxious to see the mounting option you have found. Sounds like it may be a viable mounting option to offer our customers for banjo, and possibly other instruments as well. Given the huge variety of musical instruments in the world, (and our pickups will work on the vast majority), mounting the output jack requires neverending research. Lots of instruments have little or no internal access, so the pickup must be mounted externally. Our customers are a big part of our R&D. Kind of a synergystic relationship. It's a great thing.

Jed Marum- It sounds like you need to give us a call as well. We'll do whatever it takes to get you a sound that you like. 1-800-375-2656. The #20 is about 1 1/4 inches long by 7/8 inch wide, and is usually recommended for classical guitars, banjos, drums and sometimes steel string guitars. The #27 is about 1/4 inch wide and about three inches long, which works well on most steel string guitars and mandolins. We also have the #15 for fiddles,(just installed one on Vassar Clement's fiddle), and the #30 for autoharps, hammered dulcimers and pianos and other instruments with large soundboards like upright basses. Give us a call, Jed. It sounds like you bought one of our pickups and are not actually using it. That's not a good deal for us. Please give a call. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: Marion
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM

Bluejay,

Routinely? You routinely get calls about amplifying typewriters and pool tables?

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: BlueJay
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:05 AM

Marion- Well I might have worded it wrong. Amplifying the typewriter and ping-pong tables is unusual, but it has been done,(for rhythm tracks), by performing musicians. And they actually contacted us to let us know that is is possible, rather than asking how to do it. PUTW's use on pool tables is so far undocumented. Interesting challenges in that regard.

There are a lot of instrument types in the world, and we DO routinely have folks calling for suggestions on instruments that our pickups have not been tried on yet. We learn what we can, and do the best we can to help these folks. It's a tremendous learning thing for all involved. That is the point I was trying to make.

Using the pickups on furniture, game tables and appliances presents many problems. I suspect a cherry dining table would have superior acoustic properties when compared to one made of particle board. I'm not sure, but give us a call, and we'll give it our best shot. Amana refrigerators don't have a bridge, so I'm can't pinpoint the best placement for them. Hockey sticks and baseball bats are a huge untapped market as well. I've not been able to find any research regarding pickup usage in these areas. I'd better quit now, before I get into plumbing or automotive uses. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:09 PM

Well, I gotta tell ya, after participating in this thread I determined to give Fishman one more try at resolving the problem I had with their pick-up; they said they had a new model, it was great and I oughtta try it. They didn't have a solution for the the distance problem. And the discussion on the PUTW models being essentially differing in size convinced me to experiment, even before I called for help. So today I mounted my PUTW Model 27 onto the backside of my Vega and plugged in directly into the mixer (it has significant input gain available on each channel). I was floored. It sounded GREAT! I experimented with a couple of locations, and ended up placeing the strip just beneath the bridge feet with the gold clip side complettly covering the bass foot, and the strip ending in the middle of the treble foot. I replaced the machinist tape, after I finished experimenting, and mounted all the bits permanently. I am glad I came across this thread. I wouldn't have thought of using the Model 27, but it works just fine.

I get a great sound without EQ, but have plenty available on each input channel so I believe this will work well on-stage. I'll try it out tomorrow and over the weekend. I will end up using a pre-amp because we frequently run distances through a snake. I tried the PUTW through a Fishman Pro-80 Platinum active DI - and it worked well. That unit has some EQ and notch filtering for solving on-stage feedback etc, but I'll probably run simply the pre-amped signal straight through the snake, and let the sound tech EQ the signal. When I play smaller shows, I'll probably run without the pickup (I still like the dynamic flexibility of a mic).

I'll come back after this weeks gigs and let you know hoe the PUTW works in my banjo. I hope we have better shows then Don obviously had. Lord knows, we've had our share of nightmares!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:20 PM

Well now I have to try this directly into the mixer and skipping the pre-amp then. If Jed can get good results on a Vega then I out to do as well with an Ode.

I have to say again that my problems may be unique my 50% hearing loss. I'm hearing a buch of Hi freqs and no lows but I don't know what comes out the front end.

Its times like this I wish I still had two ears and ten fingers.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: Marion
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:35 AM

BlueJay:

Maybe you can help me out then. I'd like to amplify my cat, so I can enjoy the sound of his purring without being covered in cat hairs all the time.

I've ruled out the ideas of velcroing on a microphone or taping on a contact pickup, as I'm sure he would just scratch at them until they fell off. I am also reluctant to try installing a pickup internally, as it seems rather invasive, and the placement of an output cable is bound to be problematic.

So I've concluded that a subcutaneous implant would be the best route to take. What I'd like to know is which PUTW model would be most appropriate (he's an short-haired adult male), and if the installation instructions in your documentation are detailed enough for me to install the pickup myself without the services of a professional acoustozoologist.

Thanks,

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: Brand new Pick up the world
From: BlueJay
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:19 AM

Marion- Sub-Q seems logical, though you need to consider which part of the cat you wish to amplify. Monitoring bowel sounds would probably require a #30, ( our largest current model). I'd say that if your cat is on the small side, a #27 would be better. If you want to monitor the vocal cords, probably a #15 would work.

To monitor the heartbeat, it would be ideal to position a Power Pin intramuscularly near the pericardial sac, probably around the fourth thru sixth ribs. As always, a little experimentation may be needed to achieve the best sound.

Unfortunately, our pickups are not yet sterile, which is the main impediment to surgical implantation. While not crude, in the least, our manufacturing environment does support a fair number of dogs, cats, kids, and some really noisy cockatiels. We need to work harder than we are now to obtain FDA approval for sub-q, intramuscular, intraabdominal, intrathoracic and intrathecal routes.

So I'm afraid your cat will have to go unamplified, for now, since you seem to rule out the external route. A collar with a pickup sewn in is not unrealistic, and would do best on the purring. But it might miss some of the crucial highs of a good catfight. Thanks, BlueJay