Alcoholism

Subject: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:19 PM

Hi Mudcatters,

A while back I posted a rather arrogant and uninformed opinion about alcoholism. I had an experience which completely turned my head around about it. This post is inan apology for my excessive "high moralistic" tone which was really, as I see it now, obnoxious.

I recently contracted a virual inflamation in my intestines which sent me scurrying to the doctor. He put me on a heavy tranquilizer which contained librium. I quit it cold turkey and went through an agonizing experience and although it's out of my system now, I still have manifestations of the craving such as dizziness, drowsiness etc. which comes and goes. The point is that having had to go through these withdrawal pains I began to understand and have compassion for what the alcoholic folks have to go through and instead of judging them in a negative way, I hurt along with them in their road to recovery. My view toward pain was equally addictive. Go get a med and fix it. It ain't that simple.

So I apologize to those who considered me to be judgemental, (I was) and all I can say is I really understand much more now than I did when I started my pontificating about it. Mudcatters, you told me the truth and I'm grateful for it. Thanks for it and bless everyone who has the problem of addiction wherever you are and I wish you peace and freedom from your pain.

Sincerely,

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:22 PM

I've been surrounded by alcoholics all my life, (I dodged the bullet) and, I can tell you it is a sad sight. Not one of those people chose to be addicted to alcohol. It really is the Devils' brew.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:32 PM

Right, Kendall,

But what I had to learn is that the people are not "bad" because they suffer. They are human beings like all of us and because of circumstances, well as Phil Ochs used to say "There but for fortune".

Life sometimes deals us a tough hand and there's no easy or ready made solution for it. We can just hope an pray (if you're into that type of thing, I am).

BTW I said I had a viral infection, but it really was a bacterial infection.

So I humbly climb off my high horse and embrace compassion instead.

Frank

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:04 PM

When I, an alcoholic, finally decided to quit drinking (18 years ago), it turned out to be easy, with no medications, and no withdrawal symptoms.

Tobacco was much more difficult to give up.

Is alcohol a mental addiction and tobacco a physical one?

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Guessed
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:16 PM

It is often said the alcoholism is the one illness that doesn't tell you it is an illness.
Worst of all you have to want to give up and live life as if you are always giving up.

What's yer first name Frankham? Honest John?
If I am addicted to anything it is Mudcat.
Ciggies? Cold turkey, never a twitch, but there was a motivation - an obnoxious opinionated winger. It took him a couple of weeks to stop winging and ask the obvious. Well it was sweet motivation in my case.
good on yer frankham, we would never have known. Dunno if I would be so open.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:18 PM

Takes a big person to do what you just did, Frank.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:57 PM

Well Frank, I was one of the ones who got very annoyed with you. I'm sorry it took something like that to help you understand but I do appreciate your posting here. I hope the rest of your symptoms pass quickly.

Guest, re physical addiction to alcohol, you may like to check this article out.

Jon

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:11 PM

....I almost feel guilty sometimes because I do not have a problems with addiction to drugs, alcohol, tobacco, chocolate (sweets), etc.. I like some of those things a lot, but I simply am lucky enough to be able to leave them alone if I choose. I do not take any special credit for this. I think it is VERY much related to my genetic luck and body chemistry.

I have a younger brother who is just the opposite, and had many years of problems with drugs and alcohol AND cigarettes (plus overeating!)....he has pretty much stopped all but the tobacco, and I suspect he keeps that because it is in many ways the toughest.

(he 'used' a sudden interest in religion to help himself kick drugs & booze, and now he seems 'addicted' to that...but, it is better than what he WAS doing)

It just seems to me that there are some people who, for whatever reason, cannot resist certain influences in their brain chemistry, and it makes me sad......I do hope they can find help and comfortable ways of coping.

Alcohol is not "the devil", any more than adrenaline is, but some folks are 'addicted' to both...(fast drivers, extremes sports)...

The relevlation that Frank has experienced (and generously posted openly) should be read by everyone who ever had to deal with a friend or relative with these problems!!!

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:16 PM

Frank, ditto what Sorcha said.

And Guest-Guest, you need to spend a little time reading the site at About.com that Jon linked to, or better still, this book, I'll Quit Tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:21 PM

...yea Bill but I bet you're a packrat!

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM

Frank,
I grew up amid alcoholism. It is an ugly, insidious business that destroys the sufferers an inch at a time and permanently scars those around them. Like Kendall, I have avoided the curse although I live in constant wariness of my own drinking patterns.
Unlike most here, I still have a hard time forgiving alcoholics. It is the years of embarrassment and fear, of a child forced to be the adult while hiding the "secret" from the neighbors. I wish I had known 50 years ago that it was a disease. I wish that the adults in my life had recognized that it was a disease and taken steps to heal it.
It took courage to rethink and restate your opinion. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:37 PM

Mary, Sorcha, Jon, Guessed,

Thanks so much. I appreciate your kind words.

Frank

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:44 PM

In my family, no one tried to hide it, the whole damn town knew.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:02 PM

Hi Sinsall,

I had a step-dad who had a problem with alcohol. He was abusive at times, mostly verbally, but one memorable time, physically to my mother. He worked as a bartender at one time. I have to forgive him though. Alcoholism is a sickness. He really tried in the only way he knew how. It's hard to forgive, I think, but it's the only healthy way I know of understanding the problem.

He was the first person who I ever heard sing a folk song. It was called "The Tennesee Blues". He had learned it in a boxcar in the Depression days. Heard a black man sing it, I think. He rode a Harley-Davidson and I was often in the side-car. He took me camping and taught me to shoot a 22 rifle. He also threw me in the swimming pool and I learned how to swim pretty fast. He bought albums of Leadbelly, Josh White, Burl Ives, Susan Reid and attempted to play the guitar. I kinda' took it over from him. Wonder how he felt about that? This is to say that in spite of my step-dad's problems, there are the good things that we tend to forget.

Frank

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 05:50 PM

Frank, It's very good to see you back here. I hope you can make time to stay around.

It's rare nowdays for anyone's life to be untouched by additction. Maybe it always was and we just didn't realize it. I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that but I'm sure glad that you have mastered the demon.

Now I'll go over the the “D Chord” thread and take advantage of your musical wisdom.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:26 PM

Frank, your previous opinions DID bug me. I'm glad you've gained understanding, but I'm sorry about what you had to go through to get it. In any case, it took courage and integrity to change your thinking and then to post about it. You have my best wishes for your health. Glad to have you back!

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,A Catter from the north ot England
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:39 PM

I would not call my self alcoholic, though if I am honest Inam perhaps drink-dependant, I think the only advice I could offer alcoholics id try to keep busy at all the times you need a drink.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:41 PM

my family used to be filled with alcoholics....at every family function they would get drunk and loudmouthed and whatnot....many of them quit...the ones who didn't well...they are mostly dead...from the booze and smoking and various other ailments...

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST,guest:ollaimh
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 06:52 PM

i grew up with a few alcoholics and have know many others.

i have never met an alcoholic who was not , in the most profound sense, manipulative and psychologically dishones.they are people who absolutely refuse to take any responsibility for thier own actions except when absolutely forced. they remain like this even if they quit drinking.

never trust an alcoholic, they are morally flawed people who will use anything, from psychobabble about"illness" to false heroics about doing what most of us do by normal decency--take responsibility. i have never know an alcoholic who didn't cheat at every area of life, once you got to know them and they all paly every bit of false sympathy for all it's worth.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:01 PM

Oh good...another troll. It really is getting way too obvious, you know.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:11 PM

I see we are straying into the same old territory as before. Alcohol dependence does not mean you get abusive, violent or anything as a result of taking alcohol. It means you cannot function without alcohol although the two of course can be related.

I saw more abuse, bullying, belittling of people etc. as a child from a non-alcoholic member of my family in childhood times than from the rest of the family put together.

Jon

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM

Agreed, Jon. I was never abused but sadly neglected.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM

There are all kinds of alcoholics. Some are called Weekend Warriors. We had one in my family. I think what he was most addicted to was playing cards at the tavern, and drinking with his buddies. If they'd all drunk tea (like in England) he probably would have ended up with a weak bladder. Haven't learned how to make the "just kidding" symbol yet. I gained some insight into the bar as "home," when I was old enough to drink and went around to bars in the area. After my friend and I went in a few times, everybody called "hello," when we walked in the door. Neither of us were much for drinking, but we liked the feeling of the place. The bar we went to encouraged people to bring in their guitars, and they had an old Gibson behind the bar, if you didn't have one. I think for a lot of guys who had a few beers, it was the friendship and B.S. that attracted them. Not unlike us folks at Mudcat.
Jerry

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:29 PM

It doesn't matter what you call it or how you treat it, it ruins lives. Being one is hell, living with one is even worse, because you can never help but feel that if you leave them, the next binge is your fault. And if you are a nice person, you can't do this. It takes a very particular sort of person to do it. Most just get pushed farther and farther over the edge until they either end up the same way, or wearing the nice white waistcoat with the optional sleeve and belt combination.

LTS

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:08 PM

I really wish all of you would just stop making generalizations. All of what you say is true of some; some of what you say is true of all. My mother was an alcoholic---she knew it, we knew it and since she chose to do nothing about it so did we. I continued buying her Lord Calvert up until the day before she died of lung cancer. Didn't hurt me any--might have helped her. Does that make me the bogieman Enabler?

It NEVER caused serious problems when her children were young.......she was a maudlin, sleepy drunk. We cried together a lot, and actually, it was good that we did. Got a lot of stuff worked out. I was never abused, never neglected.

I am very aware of the fact that since my mother was alcoholic, I have a higher risk factor towards same.

I know I drink too much. I know I am a "binge drinker". Just now, in MY life, I choose to do very little about it. I can "not drink"..........that is easy. In public, I can limit the intake---I will NOT make a fool out of myself in public, and I will NOT drive after more than 2 drinks in 2 hours.

I have other concerns that the crayture "seems" to make it easier to deal with........I know that is a fallacy, but it is something of a Fact in My Life........I can just forget about unsolvable problems and really SLEEP once in a while. You (whoever You is) might say that all problems are "solvable" but you have not walked in my shoes, so please don't tell me that.

Not all alcoholics are Manipulators. Not all alcoholics are Abusers. Not all alcoholics are Mean Drunks. Some years ago, a man was found dead behind the wheel of his car. Autopsy showed a blood alcohol level of .80. Legal limit is .10. Obviously, he was literally pickled......had to maintain a .3 to funciton. Nobody in this small town even knew he drank........he was a very nice man, very polite and ran a hell of a good restaurant.

Please, don't make generalizations.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: PaulM
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:19 PM

Liz,

You make a lot of valid points.

However, I don't think your point of being one is hell, living with one is even worse is at all useful.

Arguements about 'my pain is bigger (more important) than your pain' are useless and a self-perpetuating way to cause further misery.

I know, I've been there

Paul

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:27 PM

Sorcha, I think that was close to what Frank's former viewpoint was, although I don't think he ever described it in quite the vehement negative terminology as ollaimh did. Let's face it, ANY statement that basically consists of "all whomevers are [insert negative adjective(s)]" isn't worth paying much attention to. It's either the sign of a mind closed and welded shut or extreme sarcasm. In my own personal experience, the ratio of jerks to non-jerks in alcoholics vs non-alcoholics is about the same, and both have an increased chance of acting like jerks when drinking.

The difference from an alcoholic and me is, when I drink, the alcohol doesn't seem to do much for me. Well, I get drunk if I have enough, but I don't seem to feel any better. If I did, I'm quite sure there would be no difference at all.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: PaulM
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

Thanks for your post Sorcha

Whilst I don't personally like AA, there is a deal of truth in the fact that only people with alcohol problems can understand people with alcohol problems

Paul

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

Oops - I meant the generalization Sorcha was talking about was close, not anything Sorcha said.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM

I grew up with an alcoholic Dad who was also a handsome, charismatic guy who never really got the War out of his system. It took a long time for me to realize that alcohol was the problem, because I felt so sorry for him for his pain and his anger over so many other things. He could be a weeping child or a bully when drunk, and after a while I learned to comfort the child and hide from the bully. When he was sober, he was the Dad everyone wanted...friend, baseball coach, confidant. I held on to that person when the liquor let Mr Hyde out of the cage.

Just before he died, he said he was sorry for "all the trouble" he gave me, and asked if I would forgive him. I did. After all, I still felt like the one he was torturing was himself. I'm lucky enough to be a non-addictive personality. Then again, maybe I just didn't inherit the old man's demons.

Good, honest post, Frank.

By the way, I enjoyed the song by you and Mary on Roger's new album.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: PaulM
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:56 PM

Lonesome EJ

I see far too much of myself in your post.

Although I'm only 39, the alternating weeping child and bully are already far too familiar in my life.

the one he was torturing was himself

That's me exactly...

Sadly, I'm going to pour another whisky whilst I think about it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 09:54 PM

A suggestion just came up from Paul in the Annexe that I have now decided to mention here. As far as I can understand it, it is a forum for those who have drink problems and I would guess those that have actually been there themselves from within Mudcat. I invite any thoughts here, in the Annexe or via PM on this one. The Annexe thread is http://www.jonbanjo.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=146&pagenum=999&reverse=False&X=2

Jon

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Mudlark
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:04 PM

Both my parents were alcoholics, both were child abusers, my dad, dying, finally apologized, my mum never admitted to addiction, let alone abuse. Such parents can provide good anti-roll models. I inherited the family prediliction to alcohol...I really LIKE to drink. My sister did not...alcohol of any kind, including beer and wine, makes her quite ill. With my parent's sorry example always in my mind's eye, I'm ever mindful of how much I drink. But as occasional medication for pain, emotional and/or physical, it is as good as any Rx and better than most, in my experience. And a drink after a hard day, or a glass of wine with dinner is a pleasure I would not want to be without.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 02:33 AM

I'm an alcoholic! I'm an alcoholic! ;-) Only one in my family, and now over 17 years dry (and coming up on 2 off cigarettes). Can't imagine the tedium of being "ever mindful of how much I drink". I'd much rather not have a drink at all than have to count them and stop at some point. Very grateful it's no longer an issue for me. (Bearing in mind that I'm still not immune to "Y.E.T.".) I sobered up at Fremont Hall, one of the most widely known AA Fellowship Halls in the world, a fairly raucous place then and now. My "Fremont Hymn" is an encapsulation of the sort of wit and wisdom that enabled [danger word!] me to quit and stay quit. Hard as that may be to believe.

Liland

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Willie-O
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:13 AM

I've been back and there again, so to speak.

Quit for almost 3 years after twenty years of sixpack plus a day, on the average. (started less, ended up more). Quitting was easy, because I was ready to, and drinking was more like a job than a recreational activity at that point.

This past summer, I started again. After my long period of sobriety, my approach to the nectar is much different. (So is my lifestyle, which didn't include full-time steady employment through my drinking years.)

I started again because I was wondering if I had licked the demon, and could get back to enjoying aesthetic/social aspects which I found I did miss. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life practicing self-denial for its own sake, so in a self-consciously ritualistic fashion I had a couple of Sleemans during the usual high point of the summer, playing in the Blue Skies Square Dance Band. They went down exceedingly well.

After my long abstinence, interestingly, I am satiated after one or two instead of six or eight. Much easier to turn it off. My better half keeps a dubious eye on my consumption, understandably, and so do I. I stick to high-quality beers that please the palate, and generally have a lower alcohol content.

My experiences of the past few years have convinced me that, although there may be an actual physical disease of which alcoholism is a component, most people with a quote drinking problem unquote are _not_ suffering from a disease.

Because AA is so predominant in the public consciousness as the brand name for addiction recovery, I always like to point out a couple of non-12-step resources in these discussions. There are lots of different approaches to defining and treating substance abuse>addiction problems, and since peoples' problems are not all the same, solutions differ for different persons.

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/non/
http://www.peele.net/

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:49 AM

I lived with a lass who's 80 year old mother was alcoholic. Her first annoyance was shame of it in a town 3 hours away. My reaction was first the mother's security and second her health. Third was to get advice. I risked arguments to insist, we did bugger all. I wanted the phone ex-directory and sure enough we caught one cowboy outfit poised to do work totally un-necessary, they had phoned through and sussed the situation. Despite the lasses disgust at the situation nothing changed, and in spite of the difficult relationship (with mother and with me) the lass still worried. The mother was happy most of the time and had indigestion some of the time.
I never blamed the mother, just devized dozens of things to do to ease the problem and all to no avail. It certainly does impact the rest of the family. She went into a home eventually and is happy as a doughboy and was instantly dry!!! Understanding is hard when there is no logic.
The mother never admitted there was a problem.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:16 PM

Willie-O, while my experience with drugs and alchol (one alcoholic parent, one prescription drug dependent and hypochondriac parent, and my own excessive drug and alcohol lifestyle until my mid-20s) is different than yours, I will wholeheartedly agree with your point about the AA propoganda about alcoholism as a "disease." There is no scientific evidence which corroborates or substantiates this claim.

I went a few years without doing any drugs and alcohol. Not because of any conscious effort to quit, but because I was doing a lot of gratifying work and living a very gratifying life, which happened to be around a lot of teetotaler reformed alcoholics. The worst aspect of that part of my life was putting up with the dry drunks claiming they were in recovery "for life."

I rarely drink hard liquor anymore, although I enjoy the occassional margarita in hot weather when at a party or out on the town. I am a religiously healthy drinker nowadays (there is a lot of heart disease in my family). That means I have one or two glasses of red wine or a beer with dinner. But nowadays, I never drink the cheap stuff, as I can't tolerate it. I drink Sam Adams and quality reds, and that is it. I rarely "drink socially" because I don't like driving under the influence, although I do still drive after a glass or two of wine with a meal. I never just drink when I go out. Never. It is always consumed with food.

My alcoholic father and my alcoholic step-mother (they met in treatment) marvel to this day about my ability to quit the booze on my own, considering the "family history." I've totally rejected the AA disease model they ascribe to (your name brand recovery analogy is dead-on, IMO). And I admit to having little patience with the alcoholic myths perpetuated by an ever-expanding recovery industry making billions off people I perceive as having self-control problems, not a disease.

I mean, it is kinda like the Weight Watchers thing, isn't it? Ever since insurance began covering recovery and treatment centers, and we began to have designer detox centers and the celebrity recovery stories being marketed by savvy PR agents being perpetuated as cultural myths, I spend little time worrying about offending manipulative personalities masking themselves as addicts and alcoholics.

I have plenty of compassion for people's suffering. But when recovery junkies find my last nerve just to test it with their "poor pitiful me" defenses, I just tune them out and walk away. I know they can always find an appreciative audience and sympathetic ears. I spend my compassion on people who are willing both to help themselves and others, not on people who are bent on dragging everyone down into their personal hell by creating crises for others, and then turning around and using sympathy and compassion ploys to keep everyone down in the hole with them for company. Misery loves company, after all. And will go to almost any lengths to find some.

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:42 PM

Frankham - Thanks for the apology. Having worked in the substance abuse field for a number of years I always have a smile when I see tirades about this or that concerning chemical dependance. I don't know about your moralizing but have heard it before and find that your current opinion is one the country is more inclined to accept at this date. Didn't know you before but "Good to meet you" now.

If you're musically inclined we have a get together on Paltalk on Sundays and you're certianly welcome. Just no rap or Kareoke (Just joking!!!! *G*) from you is all I ask! Cruise in -

Steve

Subject: RE: Alcoholism
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 05:15 PM

Another Fremont Hall Item. It is not a pretty place, but it saved my life. It's the only place I know where the F-word is frequently invoked in public, with reference to or in addressing the Deity, in loving piety. My Baptist brethren by and large don't understand, either. ;-)

Seems to me anyone who had come (as I did) within days of death from their (seeming) chronic inability, repeatedly demonstrated over many years, to stay off the sauce would, once sober, be exhibiting something not called sanity to start drinking again for any reason short of saving a loved one from an armed terrorist. So my strong belief is that if those (like GUEST and Willie O) who recount their successful post-abstinence drinking careers are being honest about their current experience, they probably were not "my kind" of alcoholic, or (if they were) they demonstrated suicidal tendencies in starting again and should be grateful they've been spared the normal results so far, and quit again quick while they still apparently can. But it's their lives, and I wish them the best.

Liland