BS: Who Are the Terrorists

Subject: Who Are the Terrorists?
From: GUEST,Shame on Israel and the US
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:19 PM

From MSN News today:

"At least 1,107 Palestinians and 381 Israelis have been killed in tit-for-tat violence since the Palestinian uprising ignited soon after talks on a permanent settlement stalled."

The EU condemns Israel's attack on Arafat. The Arab League condemns Israel's actions Arafat, and denounces it as an attack on the Saudi inspired Arab League peace plan offered at this week's summit in Beirut.

End the Israeli occupation now!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

Just heard Bush's stupid speech. Arafat has never had the power to stop the terrorism, which will continue, with or without him, for generations. Unless the UN, with the support of the major nations puts a no-go zone between the Irraelis and the Palestinians, there is little hope. I have my doubts about even that, since the anger and frustration on the part of the Palestinians over the loss of their land and homes has only gone on for fifty years- it will continue for at least another hundred...

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:31 PM

Do not feed the Trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM

The most disruptive event of our times and you say, in essence, do not discuss it? Go back to sleep, Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:18 PM

I am pleased and proud to answer these closet anti-semites who have one set of standards for Jews and another for eveyone else. The Jews didn't start this cycle of violence. The Jews didn't start this neverending war. The Jews weren't the party objecting to a Palestinian state. The Jews were granted a stste by the United Nations, a state that was violenly contested by the pan-Arab world for fifty years. Our sin, in the eyes of our critics, was to survive the animus of our Arab neighbors who, until recently, refused to recognize our right to exist. Israel is not a land of saints. She is, as she was intended to be, a home for the Jewish people. (I've noticed that no one objects to Arab states) Her primary obligation is the security of her populace. When her borders are secure, she will have peace. But you know, and I know, that there are factions in Islam that will never accept the existamce of an "infidel" nation in the Middle East. Unless and until those factions are controlable by a Palestinian government, Israel must maintain control of her borders. In spite of the warmongering smears that Dicho and the nameless Guest employ, Israelis have no desire to remain in a perpetual state of combat readiness. We do, however, prefer peril to surrender or suicide.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 05:34 PM

My view on this is not the view of my government. My governments view is not necessarily the view of the American people.

The people of Palestine deserve their own home land. So do the Israelies. Were there Jews in Palestine (Jerusalem-Israel?) a hundred years ago? Were there Palestinians in Israel ( Jerusalem-Palestine?) a hundred years ago? It is my understanding that much of Palestine was partitioned and given away by the treaty of Versailles just as were the Balkans. Are there historical homelands involved? Certainly but how far back does history go to be valid?

The home land issue will not be decided until there is no mutual murdering going on in the name of God, Country, and tradition. Any one who thinks that Arafat has any control over the situation is just as blind as those people who thing the US government has any control over Israel.

It seems I have only questions and only obvious answers and I don't what to do about it.

This is the one thing I am sure of, this mass bloodletting will go on as long as Palestine is denied a home. This mass bloodletting will go on as long as Hamasssp)and Hisbouallah(sp)continue to murder men, women, and children who are guilty of only being Jewish.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:31 PM

Terrorism is defined as...the use of force or threats of force by one group of people to intimidate, terrorize, coerce, or destroy another group of people, in order to secure some advantage for the group committing the terrorism or in order to seek revenge for some past grievance or both.

By that definition, the terrorists are: Al Queda, Israel, the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the USA, Russia, Iraq, Pakistan, India, the Palestinian bombers and snipers, the Serbs, the Kosovars, the Chinese, the Tamils, the Sri Lankans, the British, and just about anyone else you could care to mention, with the exception of some small countries like Denmark, Iceland, Lichtenstein, and so on...and with the exception of most of us private citizens everywhere who are just trying to quietly live our lives in peace.

Who are the most effective terrorists? Powerful national governments and their military forces. They have the most firepower by far and are best organized to use it.

Police forces come next (not all police forces, but many of them in many places).

Then come scattered groups of non-governmental forces, guerrilla fighters, saboteurs, criminal gangs, etc...right down to those you might call the "small fish"...schoolyard bullies. They all have much less firepower than powerful nations do, but they are generally considered more heinous because their fighters aren't in uniform. This is mere convenient hypocrisy...the same kind that ensures that a rich man normally gets better legal help in court than a poor man does.

National goverments and great imperial powers have routinely practiced terrorism on their chosen enemies throughout history, while calling it something else, and with or without the formality of a declaration of war.

Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites. The "War on Terrorism" is itself being fought by some of the world's foremost terrorists...against some other terrorists. To find general agreement on who threw the very first stone would at this point be an exercise in futility.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:32 PM

Because one is opposed to the State of Israel's murderous policies regarding the Palestinians doesn't make one an anti-Semite. That is just bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:58 PM

Do not feed the Trolls

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 07:03 PM

Mike Miller, are you in Israel now yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 08:47 PM

I am a Jew. I am not embarrassed to state my nationality, to identify my ancestry, to honor my history and heritage. I am old enough to remember when anti-semitism was common, then, unpatriotic, then hidden in jokes. I know that the perception of Jews changed, radically, after the War of Independance in the late 40's. The Jew, who had been, at best, a tragic victim of a common enemy, became a heroic figure by establishing his ability to defend his home against the massed forces of the Arab world. My people have held this land (much of which had been purchased from Egyptian and Syrian absentee landlords back in the 20s and 30s), developed it and salvaged it from the sands of neglect, brought the first democracy the region had ever known and withstood constant attacks from their neighbors, who, only now, are even willing to accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. The fact of ownership is, historically, determined by stability and bias. To Irishman throughout the world, a thousand years of British rule did not make their nation a de facto part of England, Great Britain, the U.K. or whatever is the presently acceptable name for their oppressers. America has been "settled" only a few centuries, but I have yet to hear of an American Israel-basher offering to return his house to whichever Native American it was "settled" from. The hipocracy of the left, on the Israel-Palestinian question is amazing to me, as I have been a lifelong leftist. I understand the principle of self interest. I suppose, if I were Palestinian, I would value the lives and welfare of my family and friends above the lives and welfare of others. I am not angry at Palestinian terrorists. I fear them, of course, but I understand their zeal. They are blindly fanatical and they have no interest in a nebulous vision of objective justice or fairness. They are dangerous and they must be stopped but, at least, their agenda is known and, in a frightening way, logical. My chagrin is reserved for those among you who equate a Hamas attack on a schoolbus with the retaliation for the attack. I have little regard for hand wringers who chant the equivilant of "That's nice, dont fight" to a tiny nation fighting for its very existance. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool who thinks that the fundimentalists are ever going to permit a Jewish state in their holy land." Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 09:22 PM

Mike, I'm having difficulty determining whether or not your 30-Mar-02 - 08:47 PM post is in response to my question. Partly because it's very difficult for me to read posts that are not broken up into segments, and partly because you didn't say whether or not you are in Israel. Although the wording you've been using suggests that maybe you are. Whereabouts in Israel are you? Are you in significant danger where you are?

It's pretty difficult for someone like me, here in the US, to know what it's like to be in such a tense situation. But I do want to learn as much as I can about the situation over there. Both from the Jewish perspective, as well as from the Palestinian perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 09:27 PM

Let us praise the martyr Abdel Baset Odeh. He gave his life so that 22 Jews would not feast on the matzos made from the blood of Islamic children. His act of heroism, while not as great as that of the brave martyrs of September 11 who killed almost 4000, is an honor for his family.

Who are the terrorists? Of course it is the Jews and the Americans. The Islamic martyrs who give their lives so that Jews and Americans may die are heroes of Allah.

We thank Max, King of Mudcat, for providing this forum. Mudcat provides a great source of information since it is well known that the American media is controlled by zionist Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 09:47 PM

Above guest, Mike Miller,

Since the latest round of violence began in September 2000, the number of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces outnumber the Israelis killed by terrorist attacks by more than 3 to 1.

Why no outcry for the loss of innocent Palestinian lives? Are we to believe the blood of Israelis is more sacred than the blood of Palestinians? That Israelis are more deserving of a homeland than Palestinians?

Why the double standard here?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:42 AM

My reply to the nameless, faceless, gutless Guests who condemn Israel for defending herself from ceaseless war, waged by nations and orginizations whose oft-stated policy is the destruction of the Jewish state, is not to educate. I answer, only, to let them know that their one sided pronouncements will not go unchallenged./////// I dont know how to get this thing to make paragraphs, so I'm using these slanted lines to seperate, OK?////// My work and my family keep me in the USA nowadays. I maintain dual citizenship in the land of my birth and the land of my people. When I lived in Israel, I was a Chaver Meshach at a kibbutz near Afula, which is about ten miles from the West Bank town of Genin. The kibbutz was situated between Meggido (site of the Armigedon), Nazereth (home of you-know-who) and Nablus (the ancient city of Schem, where Abraham is buried).///// Israel is a wonderful country. It is the only state in the region with workers rights (the Histadrut is the nation-wide union.), women's rights, civil rights for gays and a true representative government. Israel has a long history of socialist experimentation, two national health plans and constitutional guarantees for minorities. On the other hand, I must admit that Israeli beer tastes like it has been run through a camel.//// I cant explain in my limited typing style, what it's like, living in a war zone. I tried to describe it to my friends, after the 9/11 attack, but I couldn't seem to do it justice. You, just live with it, that's all. You accept the restrictions, the searches, the delays. They become as routine as traffic lights. The fear is placed on the back burner of your mind, but you get a little more aware of where you are and who you're with. It's a hell of a way to live, but it beats dying.////// Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 01:52 AM

Thanks Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Wee Willie.
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:56 AM

Little Hawk, as the late Brendan Behan stated,"The terrorists are the ones with the small bombs". Wee Willie

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 02:36 PM

I live, work and make music in Israel. Life here is becoming very difficult. People's nerves are frayed, but, as Mike says you live with the road blocks and security checks.You wonder where to go on the Sabbath- should you just stay cooped up in your house? Perhaps the countryside is safer- but how do you get there? You wonder whether to go ahead with the next Folk Festival- cancel and take a loss- but what if people stay away? But maybe they'll come- just to get away from things - who knows? /// Last night it was a cafe in Tel Aviv which was bombed- My son lives and works in Tel Aviv- sometimes as a waiter. When this happens about half the people in the country get on their cellphones and the system goes down- so you bite your nails for an hour or so.Then- God help us all- you think "well it wasn't my child" If you've any tears left after the previous time you cry for other people's children. This afternoon it was a restaurant in Haifa- Arab owned and staffed by Arabs- 15 people died- Jews and Arabs- The suicide bombers don't differentiate. some of the victims were of mixed Jewish/Arab families- and of course we know that that is a red flag to all fanatics. Has any other country ever faced such fanatics? In spite all of the silly Irish jokes- I can't imagine any IRA man either stupid enough or religiously fervent enough to become a human bomb. What other religion encourages an 18 year old girl to despatch herself and 20 other people to "Paradise" (Sorry the unbelievers go to Hell and only believers go to Paradise).

I fully concurr with everything Mike says. I am proud to be a Jew here. This is a democratic country- over 80% of its Arab citizens( according to polls) would rather live here than in any Arab country./// ( I'll do what Mike did). I am against the occupation- I believe we should leave the territories to their majority of Arab citizens and withdraw to the 1967 borders . Yet how do I argue with those among us who say "Then what? Did we have peace and security before 1967?- Did we heck! Did anybody ask the Arabs to declare war on us in 1948? We accepted the UN decision then- they didn't - so what do they expect? During the period between 1948 and 1967 cross border terror was a regular occurrance- so what else is new?"

It is very difficult being a peacenik here- you want to go and help the Palestinians- but the underlying nagging question remains " Will they ever accept a Jewish Israel here?" Personally I am not getting up and leaving- after September 11th - and what with what is happening in France now(3 synagogues burnt) I wonder whether anywhere else is any better./// I don't usually respond to trolling Guests- I believe that they are expressing barely disguised anti-semitism. I do however want to share with fellow Mudcatters some of the fears and deliberations facing me and 5 million other Israelis day by day. Instead of sitting in front of the TV wondering whether to watch BBCPrime Comedy night or to follow the endless shots of ambulances and blood- I prefer to sit in front of the computer and share my thoughts with at least some of you. If anybody wants to know more about how it is here at present I am at your service. I'll be out tomorrow though- going to a music festival! Happy Easter- Jack The Lad- in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 02:54 PM

Yes, Willie....

musicmic - You can make paragraph breaks by hitting the "Enter" key twice. Try it.

While I understand your feelings (given your personal experiences in Israel), I suspect that had you been born a Palestinian or a muslim you would be expressing the same sort of passionate views...only from the diametrically opposite position. Trust me, you would.

I call terrorism terrorism no matter who is doing it, and I believe the Israelis and the Palestinians are both doing it, and have been since the inception of the Jewish state of Israel, in fact even before the inception of the Jewish state...check the historical record of the British administration in Palestine after World War II.

They are both committing terrorist acts "to protect themselves" and "to retaliate" for past terrorist acts and to "send a message" (a stupid and pointless message, namely: "We aren't going to let you push us around! Try it and you will pay dearly!"). Well, duh!...when has that ever ended a festering dispute of this sort?

They are both wrong to do it, IMO, and I regret that there is no world authority either willing to or capable of disarming them both, protecting the civilians on both sides, establishing heavily garrisoned buffer zones between them if necessary, and policing the area for as long as it takes to reach some working and lasting agreements for mutual coexistence and peace.

I have never denied Israel's right to exist, but I deny their right to attack their neighbours, just as I deny their neighbours' right to attack them. That is not anti-semitism! It's neutrality. I accept everyone's right to exist.

And I am well aware that Israeli society has accomplished a number of progressive things, and is better organized socially (and militarily) than the poorer, less modernized Arab nations on its borders.

That doesn't make Israel "good" and the Arabs "evil". Most ordinary people everywhere are good, in my opinion, but they become dangerous when they are fearful or desperate or in the grip of virulent hate propaganda.

Both Israel and its many armed opponents are in the grip of fear, desperation, and virulent hate propaganda on a daily basis...but they only recognize the other guy's hate propaganda for what it truly is. They see their own hate propaganda as the gospel of truth and justice...

Both are walking, blinded by their own mythology, into the fire.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 03:44 PM

Jack and Little Hawk you are two fair and reasonable men, if only everyone were of like mind. I live in north east Ireland and our troubles seem minor in comparsion, the news is grimmer by the hour from Israel-Palestine, may you go safely Jack, and by some miracle may you also have a peaceful settlement. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From:
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 04:26 PM

I think the world helped make this mess and the world has to help solve it. I don't see how the two sides can voluntarily come to any agreements without military and financial pressure from the outside world. We can start by looking at the problem of population pressure and look for ways to relieve that..massive immigration of the Palestinians, combined with better lives for those who remain. (Yes, I support the right of Israel to exist, with well-defined borders, and to the right of a Palestinian state to exist, with borders and under, for the forseeable future, international peace-keeping forces. Terrorism must be dealt with swiftly and surely, as it is being done. Arafat is now cornered, and should be cut off from all communication and held on house arrest until happier days arrive. There are ways to improve the lot of the Palestinians..with better water, sewage, garbage services. Better access to education, particularly trade schools. I will say that if I owned an olive orchard and had to watch through a fence while it was bulldozed I would not be a "nice" refugee. In my own land. We have somehow, many if not most of us in America and probably Europe, heard only one side of this. Some of what we have heard has been misinformation. We have to seek out the truth on all sides. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM

Mike Miller, if you are happy to cite the UN as authority for Israel's existence, no doubt you think Israel should respect the various UN resolutions concerning the region?

Jack, you can't imagine any IRA people being "stupid enough" to be suicide bombers, but I expect you can think of a few who died on hunger strike, which in my book required similar comitment.

All over the world you will find people to willing to die if the cause is close enough to their hearts. Jan Palic may be the best remembered of those who have burnt themselves to death, but he is one of many hundreds in recent times. Such commitment doesn't mean the cause is always right, but it's a good measure of how deeply feelings can run, and how intractable some problems are.

Gareth, I thought trolling was supposed to be posting with a view to inviting attack (or "flaming" as we must to call it in cyberspace). Who had fed the troll when you first posted, and is your mind so closed that you can find nothing worthwhile in what has been an absorbingly interesting natter (or was till I joined in)?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:33 PM

Mike,
you can also make paragraphs by doing the follwoing:
Type < then br then >. This will give you paragraphs.
If you go the the permathreads, you cab learn a lot about html that will make your (and our) life easier.
As I have said before, until the question of who controls Jerusalem is settled, there will be no peace in the region. I suggest that the UN move its headquarters there and declare it an international city under UN governance.

troll (at my brother-in-laws house in Ft Worth, Tx.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

Respectfully refer to Guest Post 30-Mar-02 - 09:27 PM

My case stands.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From:
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 06:38 PM

I thought of something else...Those settlements are an obvious problem. I know land is scarce, but they are being used as human shields, and some, not all, are fanning the flames. I think all settlements in the occupied terrorities, and whatever land will most likely in the future be in the state of Palestine should be essentially no-man's (woman's) land and should be turned into heavily secured areas that can be used as parks or orchards or vegetable plots...and playgrounds for the children...From a military point of view it is much more easy to defend etc...and rather than raising ire they could be raising cash crops or whatever...both sides perhaps..

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM

Gareth, for some real examples of feeding trolls, please see your own posts on these threads:

#1 Peasant, thank you; Ever played with your genitals; Help, hi girls; To, All Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:37 PM

The important thing is not whether or not someone is trolling, but what kind of fish turn up when he does...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 09:44 PM

OK,I'll hit ENTER twice to see if that works. Here goes.

I, too, support a Palestinian state. if only for reasons of stability. According to poll after poll, so do most Israelis. If Arafat was strong enough to control the extremist factions operating within his borders, I would be his biggest fan. The fact is, however, he is powerless. If Egypt or Jordon was to administer the Palestinian state. we might be a little more confident and, even, sleep a little better.

I have already said that if I were Palestinian, I would view this through Palestinian eyes. It is not the anger of the Palestinians that I resent. It is the bleating from the cheap seats of the uninvolved, supposedly objective. It is this nonsensical and historically oblivious cry for Israeli concession when any truly objective observer must see that nothing, but nothing, will appease the fundimentalists except the total desrtuction of the Jewish state. It's not the Arab states that scare us. For the most part, they have finally come around to accepting the reality of Israel (It only took them fifty years). It is not the Arab states that are sending suicide bombers to our seders and our bus stations.

I dont know what to say to the sheep who equate terrorist acts with retaliation. They, obviously, feel that terrorist raids are, on some level, justified. I can only pray that their flocks are never labeled "infidel" so that they never have to discover what their reaction would be. Here, in the USA, we got hit, we got angry, we got back. In spite of your platitudes, the fact remains that terrorists are not placatable. To my many friends in the UK, I suggest that you recall what the British response to the bombing of London was.(Here's a hint, it didn't involve surrender)

How were my paragraphs?

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

This conflict is several thousand years old. The parties do not seem to be able to resolve it among themselves. Both sides make legitimate arguments and have legitimate claims. Dubya forsook the route of dialogue that had been started, urged and coerced by the previous administration and left the parties to sort it out themselves. This is the result. musicmic, and Jack the Lad, I appreciate your posts and the fact that you signed them and speak with conviction. While recognizing that much of what you say is based on fact, such as the Arab states refusal to recognize Israels right to exist, will you not agree that Sharon (beginning with his unwelcome visit) has done much to flame the passions of the Palestinians? It is my opinion that the world community MUST intervene or my grandson will be debating this in his manhood. And will you not also agree that Israel MUST make some concession on Jerusalem? That city is one of the holiest places in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Is there a resolution, in your minds, to this problem? Is there room for compromise? It seems to me that Netanyahu and Sharon have been responsible for inflaming this situation into the hopeless tit for tat death struggle that these two peoples are in. Any time one sees the use of suicide to make the point, it means that you will never win with superior force and fire power. It means the rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters are willing to risk all because there is no hope of settlement any other way. That is what the hawks don't get. You can kill the visionary, but never the vision.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:10 AM

In re-reading my post, I would also say that it seems to me that the Palestinian leaderships inability or desire to reign in Hamas in the other major reason for this. Which goes back to my first point. The parties are not able to resolve this on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:53 AM

If by "the parties" you mean the Jews and the Palestinians, they could have worked out their differences in 1948. It has never been a question of Palestinian rights. Israel was not opposed to a neighboring state. It was the Arab League who started a war to prevent the Jewish state. And, while we're at it, let's understand the Pan-Arab position on Palestinian rights. Nobody ever gave a damn about the Palestinians when they were virtual serfs to the wealthy Egyptians, Syrians and Jordanians who owned the land. (The Palestinians have been the lowest class of workers in the Arab world for centuries. They provided cheap labor fron North Africa to the oilfields of Kuwait) The religious fanatics who plague our planet care no more about Palestinian Rights than George W. Bush does about health care. Their objection is that there are infidels on their holy ground. Now, we Jews have our zealots, too, but we keep them under control.

Why are we having this discussion? Are any of the Israel bashers really interested in another point of view? Are any of them prepared to hand over their own homes or cities? How, pray tell, do they think those homes and cities were gotten? I'll bet they weren't gotten by purchase and international fiat, as Israel got gotten. I've read enough history to know that Israel's behavior has been no worse, and, in many ways, a damn sight better than other countries. Israel is not a terrorist nation, no matter what these knee-jerk nazis claim. Israel has never attacked a country that didn't attack her first. To blame Israel for retaliation is to blame the victim for the result of the victimization. (Segregationists used to use this trick. They claimed that African-Americans were unqualified for better jobs, ignoring that segregated schools had kept them unqualified. Still, this argument made sense to those who were looking for a rational for the evils of racial discrimination)

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:41 AM

Trouble is, Gareth, your first post came about five hours before the one you take issue with. In fact you had to revive the thread twice before that post was submitted. Of course, if you are the guest as well, you will have seen it coming, and hence the advance complaint. Or were you just warning us all to conform with your own convictions, the courage to state which you haven't yet found?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:48 AM

Stop being such a dick, musicmic. Calling people who disagree with your lame Zionist crap 'nazis,' 'anti-semites,' and 'sheep' is no way to get your point across. Look at Jack the Lad's post above. He's just as incorrect as you are, but he didn't have to act like an asshole to prove it. I don't think anyone on this thread has insulted you (besides me, dickweed), so chill out. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:12 AM

Jack the Lad.......Glad to see you are still "on the bus" and thanks for being there.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:28 AM

Musicmic,

You speak for many of us who remain silent or anonymous because we're sick of attacks from the likes Lepus Rex.

Ignore Lepus Rex. Read through his Mudcat posting history you will see him for exactly what he is. He hates Israel and everything that it represents.

He has even stated he hates his own country, the United States.

On the other hand, Lepus Rex is a friend of ruthless dictators, hateful fanatics and murdering terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:55 AM

I see there are no Palestinians living in the occupied territoris who contribute to the Mudcat Forum.

This conversation is grossly one-sided, with no representation from the Palestinian perspective whatsoever. Which is just the way the US and Israeli governments intend to keep it. The Israeli security forces have now effectively closed down the West Bank And Gaza as a "military zone" which means we will get precious little legitimate news reporting out of the area. Just like the US military did in Afghanistan, Panama, etc.

One lesson all the repressive western powers like the US, Britain, and Israel learned from Vietnam: keep the reporters out, so neither the facts or the truth gets told. Which is why the ANC in South Africa spent good money on their own satellite dishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:58 AM

musicmic

Are you some sort of PR person for the Palestinians? Or are you simply misinformed and stupid?

You are arguing that since Americans stole the land from the natives that we should support Israel in doing the same.

You argue that since Israel was attacked first, it is ok for them to Bulldoze villages and attack police stations.

You say that the problem stems from the fact that Arafat does not have the power to be effectual. If you read the paper today you will see whose fault that is.

I have no stake in either side of this conflict. But it is clear that only one government is overtly employing terror. If that makes you call me a "knee-jerk" "Israel Basher" so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 11:37 AM

I, on the other hand, am not bashing anyone. I am asking questions and trying to stimulate a fair look at this. musicmic, even if all you say is correct (IMHO most is and some isn't), what the hell has that got to do with getting to a place where Israeli and Palestinian kids don't have to grow up in this shit? The point is to stop the fighting and even if that happens today it will take a generation or two to undo the prejudices that many of todays kids are being raised with. But it must start somewhere. This is not unlike the north of Ireland. If it is one thing I have learned in my 6 or so years on the Mudcat, it is that we can go on and on about the ancient wrongs and who started what. But the childrens lives are more hopeful if those are subjects for political debate in a peace process, than what their lives are like if they are justification for more killing and hate. You need to step back. Your position and endless ranting about who did what are exactly why the process can't go forward. Do I blame Israel for protecting her citizens against the suicide bombers and terrorist cells? No, in fact I applaud her for that. Does that equate with support for what is happening now? Nope. Because they seek to strip the Palestinian of their chosen leadership. That is a shortsighted and losing strategy.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:02 PM

I have kinfolk who call themselves jewish, and kinfolk that call themselves moslem. I am neither. My question is a respectful request for clarification: since every single national boundary in existence on today's maps was put there by a previous conquest of some sort, why is it so not OK for conquest to determine this particular boundary? Why do the Palestinians and the Israelis have a "right" to territory, when nobody else does, except as given by the conquering which their ancestors committed?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:10 PM

Troll (Mudcat member visiting Texas) says, "I suggest that the UN move its headquarters there and declare it an international city under UN governance."

I dunno, Troll; having the UN headquarters situated in Manhattan hsn't exactly protected New York City from Muslim terrorists, now has it?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM

And by the way, musicmic, would you mind giving me your opinion on the questions I asked? They will help me to understand where you are coming from. Your frame of references seem to stem from the last 50 years and I maintain that this is several millenia old.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:18 PM

Thank you SharonA for identifying that truth. As long as there are influential Islamicists who will distort their religion to convince young men, and now young women, to kill themselves committing mass murder, we are not safe from them. Not in New York, not in Jerusalem, not anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:31 PM

Jack the Sailor says, "it is clear that only one government is overtly employing terror [referring to Israel]."

But how is that better than the covert employment of terror by the Palestinian government? In some cases it's not even all that covert; look at Arafat's statement on Friday, as his compound was being occupied by Israeli soldiers, when he said (in reply to Israel's statement that they had no intention of harming him) that he hoped he would be a martyr so that Palestinian terrorists could avenge his death ("To Palestine, millions of martyrs will flow"). If that's not a blatant call to arms for terrorists, I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:34 PM

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! Yeah, write your congressamn and senators. Email the President. Heck with figuring out who threw the first stone. You might as well be arguing how many angels can dance on the end of a pin... SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! It provides the crux of what both Isreal and the Palestinians have "said" they wanted all along. It is INCLUSIONARY. It is a good first step.

NO, the Military-Industrial Complex doesn't want it!!! And the news media, which is owned by a ruling class that profits from war, doesn't want it. But there's more to life than money so SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL TODAY. RIGHT NOW. TAKE A MINUTE OR TWO TO WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN AND THE WHITE HOUSE. NOW. PLEASE.

Stop bickering over the past long enough to do something to STOP THE KILLING NOW!!!!!

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! ACT NOW!

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 12:48 PM

The mother of Abdel Baset Odeh, the suicide terrorist who murdered 22 Jews, most of them elderly, at the Passover seder in Netanya was on CNN saying how HAPPY and PROUD she was about the murders committed by her son.

Imagine, a mother saying how happy and proud she is that her son would kill himself and 22 innocent people gathered for a religious celebration.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 01:02 PM

Above guest,

It is no different than a mother of a member of the US armed forces killed in the line of duty saying the same thing. No different at all. How many innocents have the US armed forces slaughtered in Afghanistan? Answer: we don't know, because our government won't tell us. If we knew how many innocents our government slaughtered, a lot of people in the US would be upset too.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:07 PM

Geez, I wish you GUESTS would fill in the blank with some name, just so that the rest of us can refer to you in a slightly handier way than by saying "GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 01:02 PM". But until then...

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 01:02 PM: Yes, there are several differences. In Afghanistan, the US is not intentionally targeting civilian non-combatants, nor does the US make a habit of targeting them in general (there have been cases where miscalculations and other mistakes have resulted in innocents being bombed, but again those were not intentional). Afghan civilians were forewarned by the US that attacks on terrorist hideouts were forthcoming, and were advised to evacuate. The US has offered humanitarian aid to the region for those who are not actively seeking to kill Americans, no matter what their sentiments about the situation might be.

Please, let's not forget that Afghanistan's government isn't telling us everything either! They have a political agenda, just as the US government does... just as Palestine's does... just as Israel's does. Each of those governments has sent young people off to kill and sometimes to die for its political agenda, just as a bazillion governments around them and before them. Personally, I prefer the political agenda that promotes and defends human rights for all to the agenda that declares that any segment of the population does not have the right to exist.

By the way, please note that Ariel Sharon (no relation! *G*) has declared that Israel is at war against terrorism, not against Palestine. Sound familiar? The US didn't declare war against Afghanistan, either, but against terrorism.

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:11 PM

(nobody's going anywhere near my question, I see)

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:22 PM

The idea that the targeting of civilians is intentional is bullshit. We just ignore the fact that civilians will be casualities of the violence we are inflicting in Afghanistan because as a nation state, when we go to war, we are told the civilian casualties are "collateral damage" and can't be avoided.

It is now the nature of state sponsored military action that many more civilians than soldiers are killed, regardless of where the violence takes place.

The Israelis have killed many more Palestinian civilians in the past 18 months (some estimates run as high as 2,000 Palestinians killed) to the Israeli losses of about 400-500 killed, including those killed by suicide bombers.

Those are pretty lopsided numbers.

Like I said, there are Israeli mothers who are happy and proud that their sons are killing Palestinians, you just aren't seeing them interviewed on CNN or Israeli TV. Why? The state propagandists don't like to put that sort of spin on the Israeli side, just like they don't like to put that sort of spin on the US side. Makes them look like the barbarians they truly are.

Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:31 PM

Mrrzy,

If you have so many Israeli and Moslem (sic) relations, why is it you are claiming it is their ancestors who conquered what is now the state of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza?

The state of Israel was formed in 1948. Prior to that (from around the turn of the century) what was known as Palestine was merely a protectorate of the British empire (the world's experts in divide, conquer, and leave the wars to the next occupiers)?

It wasn't their ancestors who engaged in the war that created the state of Israel. It was the same aging Zionist regime that just declared war on Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:38 PM

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 02:22 PM says: "We [the US] just ignore the fact that civilians will be casualities of the violence we are inflicting in Afghanistan."

I guess you missed that part of my post where I reminded you that civilians were forewarned of the violence and advised to evacuate the area. That's quite the opposite of "ignoring" civilians as possible casualties. "Barbarians" would not advertise their attacks in advance and pinpoint the day the attacks were to begin.

As for comparing numbers of Palestinian civilians and Israeli civilians killed over the last 18 months, the problem there is that so many Palestinians seem to be willing to become suicide bombers... so it's difficult to say which Palestinian is a non-combatant "civilian" and which is a "terrorist". Do you have numbers of casualties separated into those two categories? By the way, where are you finding these casualty figures?

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:49 PM

P.S. to the GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 02:22 PM: Yes, I know that in the first post on this thread, someone posted the statement from MSN News: "At least 1,107 Palestinians and 381 Israelis have been killed in tit-for-tat violence since the Palestinian uprising ignited soon after talks on a permanent settlement stalled." But did those talks stall 18 months ago? Besides, I have to wonder whether any of those Palestinian "casualties" numbered were actually suicide bombers.

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 02:31 PM: You said to Mrrzy that Israel just declared war on Arafat, when in fact (as I just said, above) Ariel Sharon has declared that Israel is at war with terrorism. If you equate the two, that simply supports the belief that Arafat not only condones but directs terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:51 PM

Right, but instead of all this "we-they" stuff, could I get an answer to the questions I have posed? Or are we just going to do the same thing here that the protagonists are doing in the popular media?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 02:54 PM

I found this picture of Lepus Rex.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:00 PM

Big Mick: Perhaps it would be best if you would restate the questions. I'm confused, since the questions you posed in your post of 01-Apr-02 - 11:37 AM seemed to be rhetorical. Are they the questions to which you're referring?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM

Once again, too many of you are overly focusing on blame and by doing so you are perpetuating conflict rather than RESOLUTION.

War escalates because folks don't chill long enough to examine alternatives. Yeah, peace maybe a painful venture, and maybe not as profitable (for some) as war, but it's a heck of a lot less painful and Godless as the alternative.

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL. Can I at least get a "second" or "amen" or are all you folks to busy making war with one another.

Peace.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:11 PM

SharonA

Who are the Northern Alliance terrorists of Afghanistan? Who are the Al Qaida terrorists of Saudi Arabia who attacked the US? Who are the Zionist terrorists? Who are the Likud terrorists?

Why was bin Laden our ally under Papa Bush, but is now our enemy under Baby Bush?

Who are the terrorists, SharonA?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:14 PM

I'll definitely second and third the suggestion of using the Saudi peace proposal, especially in place of the current insistence upon the Zinni solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:16 PM

Yes, it's me, the "dickhead" who doesn't like having his friends and family under ceaseless threat of attack. May I suggest that we confine our discussion to the real world rather than the politicaly correct Utopia that my critics would have us believe in. In the real world, religious fanatics are not interested in peaceful solutions, compromize or tolerance. In the real world, the true enemies of peace can, and do, wage their war on everyone, everywhere. They are equal oppotunity offenders. They wage a Jihad and they are ruthless and fearless. They are still fighting the war from 1948, to them, that war will end with the destruction of the Jewish state or it will not end. They have no country of their own to accept retaliation. They launch their attacks from bases in areas that are either supportive of them or too frightened of them. Retaliatory strikes in Afghanastan, Iraq or Gaza may be a less than ideal response but it is the best available strategy.

If I have offended with my "nazi" remarks, I can but hope that you will understand my frustration and disappointment at the apparent disregard for Jewish lives that stands out like a sore swatztika. While we're on the subject, when did Jews become ineligable for minority status sympathy? The Jews are, after all, a minority in their region. They have, successfully, staved off extinction in the face of astounding adversity. Gee, it seems like only yesterday that we were the victims. Now, we're the big, bad Jews. Where did we go right? Do you think that, just maybe, the sympathy of the left shifted to the Arab side right around the time that the Soviet Union began supplying the UAR with planes, arms and advisors? Before that era of Realpolitik, we were a bunch of cute Kibbutzniks dancing the hora. Well, it's something to think about, isn't it?

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:16 PM

PS, I also support an immediate withdrawal by the Israelis, per the UN Security Council resolution passed on Saturday. No ceasefire is going to be possible until the Israelis pull back, and everyone in the world, with the possible exception of the Israeli and US administrations, knows and accepts this. The EU, the Arab League, everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:19 PM

Ehhhhhhhhhhh, funny stuff, Guest. :P

Anyway, I'm not going to try to convert anyone. Whatever Sharon (uh, Ariel, that is) wants to call his "war," it's unwinable, and his little Crusader State is doomed in the long run. He won't be able to stop Palestinian terrorists, just as the British couldn't stop the Jewish terrorists way back when. Israel could murder every last Palestinian in Palestine, and the birthrate for Israeli Arabs would still be higher than that of the Israeli Jews. Call it Israel if you like, but it won't be a Jewish state for much longer, peace or not.

(So {waving my magic wand}, scrap the Apartheid state of Israel, screw the fragmentary Palestinian "state," and make a new, secular state of Palestine, full of lollipops and free puppies for Jews and Arabs alike. :} )

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:20 PM

And the US can't stop the Israeli terrorists today.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:24 PM

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 03:11 PM: Who are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:30 PM

This is a position paper written by current Israeli hawk, Ariel Sharon, in 1996. It is chilling how it explains in detail, just what Sharon did when he assumed power 18 months ago (starting at the Temple on the Mount), and is continuing to do right now. This document is the Likud template for dismantling the Oslo peace accord.

The Likud's Plan, Simply Put By Ariel Sharon (Security first - Jerusalem as Israel's capital only; talks with Syria, but no settlement till after Assad. The writer, a Likud MK, is a former defense minster)

THE time has come to dispel the confusion and explain the National Camp's position in simple language, without verbal preening.

The Likud cannot accept the Oslo accords. Accepting them means that if we form the next government, we will be forced to continue with a terrible and dangerous agreement; and if we remain in the opposition, we shall not be able to continue the struggle against the agreement and its repercussions.

Critics could justifiably say, "Why are you protesting? After all, you accepted the agreement!" Yet we cannot avoid taking into account certain facts that have already come into being.

We will act as follows:

In areas, minimal for the time being, that have already been handed over to the Palestinian Authority (designated as A areas), we will demand the correction of all violations, namely: an all-out war by the Palestinian Authority against terrorism (which has yet to be launched); the extradition of wanted murderers; confiscation of firearms and all weapons; an end to anti- Israel incitement.

In the areas that have not yet been handed over to the Palestinians we will implement the Likud plan: The Palestinians will be permitted to conduct their daily lives without interference (with the exception of issues requiring coordination). But responsibility for security and the war against terrorism will remain in Israel's hands.

In addition, the areas of Jewish settlement and other security areas will remain under exclusive Israeli rule.

If in the future we decide, within the framework of the permanent solution, to apply Israeli law in these areas, we shall do so.

The security areas include the mountain range, whose width is up to 20 km, east of what was once the Green Line, which strategically dominates most of Israel's population; a strip of about 25 kilometers west of the Jordan River and Dead Sea which enables Israel to defend itself in the east; the area of Jerusalem, including its satellite cities, and the area between Wadi Kelt and the Kidron stream to the northern end of the Dead Sea.

In addition, the main arteries connecting the coastal plain with the Jordan River and the Dead Sea will be included in the security areas, and several kilometers on each side of them. For example: Derech Haim (the Trans-Samaria highway), the Trans-Judea highway, and the Modi'in Ma'aleh Adumim Route.

JERUSALEM will be united forever. It will be the capital of Israel only. PLO and Palestinian Authority offices will be moved out.

Palestinian Security forces, which today operate illegally in east Jerusalem and on the Temple Mount, will be banished from the city. UN forces or UN observers will not be deployed in the area. The grievous error of their deployment in Hebron is enough.

This stumbling government has learned nothing from its bitter experience in southern Lebanon. In Hebron, too, terrorists will operate under the cover of UN observers. As in Kafr Kana, terrorists will find shelter among them after hitting us.

And if the IDF takes action, the world which in the boastful words of the government is entirely with us will react as it has just done in the UN.

The slap in the face this government has just received seems not to have sufficed.

With the Golan Heights we will do as follows:

The Likud government will continue a channel of communication with the Syrians. In general we think, as do several prominent American statesmen, that a final settlement with Syria has to be postponed until the post- Assad era.

This is because of the assumption that, after Assad, there will be a period of instability in Syria, with Israel liable to find itself without the Golan Heights, and without peace.

Every future settlement with Syria will be based on Israel's retention of the Golan. Every weakening of Israel's hold on the Golan, even the most minimal, will require a parallel move on Syria's side, including the drastic reduction of its army (Syria today has 4,800 tanks and 1,000 ground missiles), the removal of all forces from Lebanon, and the complete dismantling of all Palestinian terrorist organizations and their headquarters in Syria.

For those who worry about Israel's security and existence: Before confusion turns you into floating voters, this, in simple language, is the Likud's plan. Through it, peace with security can be achieved.

That is, if the Arabs want peace at all. Which is still an unknown.

(c) Jerusalem Post 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:34 PM

Mrrzy,

Any white person who lives in the Americas is living on land conquered from the red men. Hell, Texas and California were subsequently conquered from the Mexicans.

Any white person living in Australia is living on land conquered from black men.

Go back into the history of any country and there's a history of conquest. It was only in the 7th century A.D. that the first Arab conquerers arrived in what we now call Israel/Palestine. Jews were there thousands of years beforehand.

Big Mick,

If you look at history, you will see that prior to the 20th century, Jews were treated much better in Moslem countries than in Christian countries. That, of course, changed completely following World War II.

After the creation of Israel, more Jews were forced out of Arab and Moslem countries than there were Palestinians who were forced out, or fled from, Israel. The difference is that those forced out of Arab and Moslem countries were absorbed into the citizenry of Israel while the Palestinian refugees were forced into squalor by the Arab governments who encouraged them to leave.

Not all Palestinians left Israel in 1948. Those who stayed enjoy much greater rights and freedoms than in virtually any of the surrounding Arab countries. Today, there are 1,000,000 Palestinian Arabs who are citizens, who vote and elect members of the Israeli Knesset and who are exempt from military service because Israel does not want to force anyone to potentially fight their own relatives.

The United Nations partitioned Palestine in 1947. Rather than accept a Jewish and a Palestinian state, the Arabs massed their armies and attacked when the British left in 1948.

From 1948 until 1967, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza were part of Jordan and Egypt. The Arabs could have created a Palestinian state on that territory at any time. They did not. Rather, they maintained the stance that Israel would be defeated in a coming war and "the Jews would be driven into the sea."

When Israel reached peace settlements with Egypt and Jordan, those countries washed their hands of their former territories and the Palestinians therein.

18 months ago, Arafat could have accepted Israel's peace settlement. Or, he could have said that the offer brokered by President Clinton was the basis for further negotiations. Instead, Arafat walked away and began the terrorism that has escalated until today.

When Israelis saw the return of terrorism, they got scared and elected the warrior Sharon as prime minister. Arafat and his friends in Hamas have known all along that Sharon will respond with a heavy hand to every attack. They have known all along that many more of their children will probably die as a result. That is their game. They score points on the bodies of their dead children.

If Arafat was a Ghandi or a Mandella, things could have been so different. What Arafat has succeeded in doing has been to destroy the very large Israeli peace movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 03:59 PM

More than a bit disingenuous to leave out the story of the Israeli settlements on Palestinian land in the wake of the 1973 war, isn't it Guest, Feder? You know, that part of history where the Israelis bulldoze Palestinian towns, and build new Israeli settlements in their place?

To suggest that Arab Israeli citizens are equal citizens is pure bullshit. Some of us who aren't Israeli apologists have travelled to Israel and seen first hand what the situation is--and it is currently nothing like the picture you've painted here.

Since the above history was left out of your information, I'm including it here. The article below is from the Washington Report on the Middle East journal at the following website:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1096/9610087.htm

Ex-Terrorist Shamir Becomes the Likud's New Leader of Israel

By Donald Neff

October 1996, p. 87

It was 13 years ago, on Oct. 10, 1983, that former pre-state terrorist Yitzhak Shamir became Israel's new prime minister, making him the second leader from the nationalist Likud party to rule the Jewish state.1 At the time Shamir was 67, a dedicated member of the Likud who in his inaugural speech vowed to continue the "holy work" of establishing settlements on Palestinian land in the territories occupied by Israeli forces since 1967.2 He was as good as his word, as had been the Likud party's first prime minister, Menachen Begin, and as its third and latest prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, is likely to be.

The right of settlement is a core belief of the revisionist Zionist Likud, and both Begin and Shamir were passionate in their efforts to establish and expand Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

When Begin came to power in 1977, there were about 50,000 Jews living in Arab East Jerusalem and about 7,000 in 45 settlements in the West Bank and in an additional 45 Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and Golan Heights.3 When Begin left office six years later, there were close to 200 settlements in all the occupied territories, with about 22,000 Jewish settlers in the territories and 100,000 in Arab East Jerusalem. Under Begin, the pattern of settlements essentially established the central points for Jewish settlement throughout the territories.

Shamir's contribution over the next decade was to substantially thicken and expand the carefully laid out settlements.4 When Shamir finally left office in mid-1992, there were some 245,000 Jews in some 250 settlements, including Arab East Jerusalem.5

The ambitious settlement programs of Begin and Shamir stemmed from the belief that Jews have a God-given right to Eretz Yisrael, all of the Land of Israel ruled by ancient Israelites. That claim is central to the Likud manifesto, which unequivocally states: "The right of the Jewish people to Eretz Yisrael is eternal and indisputable, and linked to our right to security and peace. The State of Israel has a right and a claim to sovereignty over Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip. In time, Israel will invoke this claim and strive to realize it. Any plan involving the hand-over of parts of western Eretz Yisrael to foreign rule, as proposed by the Labor Alignment, denies our right to this country."6

The reference to "western Eretz Yisrael" is to Palestine. Begin and Shamir were both firm believers that the rest of Eretz Yisrael lay to the east -- modern-day Jordan. Like all Likudniks, Netanyahu most likely also believes that, although he has been diplomatically silent on the subject.

While Begin was no slouch in invoking the right of settlement, Shamir brought a new level of arrogance to it in his public declarations asserting the Jews' birthright to Eretz Yisrael. He became notorious for his repeated declaration that "for the sake of the Land of Israel it's all right to lie." His critics say he followed his own advice with a vengeance.7

Shamir's passion about the settlement issue became particularly intense in the first half of 1992 when he faced June elections and, at the same time, a concerted effort by President George Bush to link the granting of $10 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to a halt to Israel's establishment of new settlements [see "Middle East History," WRMEA, May 1995]. In defiance of Bush, Shamir on Jan. 20, 1992, launched his re-election campaign in the settlement of Betar Illit on the occupied West Bank. He told the Jewish settlers: "No force in the world will stop this construction. We say to ourselves, and to the Gentiles of the world and to the next generations, here will be our homeland, here will be our home, forever and ever."8

It was reported President Bush "went ballistic" when he heard of Shamir's remarks. No public comment was made by the White House, but clearly the battle had been joined by Shamir and Bush.9 The bitterness of the fight over the next six months was eventually to contribute to Shamir's loss of the election.

On Jan. 26, Shamir returned to the settlement theme in a speech to Jewish journalists in Jerusalem. Though he had been speaking in Hebrew, he switched to English when he said: "To avoid any misunderstandings, Israel and all those people who represent Israel are not talking or not speaking about any freeze of settlements. Please forget about it."10 On Feb. 13, Shamir said: "Even an implicit understanding that there be no housing starts is out of the question. Anything that can be perceived as a freeze is something that this government cannot live with."11

When the State Department announced on May 12 that the United States continued to support United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 of 1948, which called for the return or compensation for the nearly three-quarters of a million Palestinians driven from their homes in the 1948 war, Shamir responded in public, defiantly declaring: "It will never happen in any way, shape or form. There is only a Jewish right of return to the land of Israel."12 A week later Shamir earmarked $470 million for new development, including $40 million for industrial development in the territories and $430 million for new housing, with 10,000 of the 17,000 new units in the territories.

During the election campaign Shamir openly spelled out the underlying reason why settlements were necessary. It was, he explained, aimed at preventing a territorial compromise with the Palestinians. This was to be accomplished by having so many settlers live in the territories that "the dream of territorial compromise will disappear, like a dream," Shamir said.13

It was this strategy that explains Shamir's and Likud's intense insistence that Jews have a right and a duty to settle the occupied territories. Shamir and his Likud colleagues hope that at some point the number of Jewish settlers will become so great that no government would be strong enough to dislodge them. That in turn explains why Likud governments have traditionally been so careful to stretch out any talks about peace. As Shamir himself admitted after his defeat by Yitzhak Rabin on June 23, 1992: "I would have conducted [peace] negotiations for 10 years, and in the meantime we would have reached half a million souls in Judea and Samaria [the West Bank]....Without such a basis there would be nothing to stop the establishment of a Palestinian state."14

Thus when the new Likud prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, insists that peace talks "have to advance very slowly" and at the same time insists that Jews have a right to settle anywhere in the occupied territories,15 he is doing more than merely repeating old Likud campaign slogans. He probably is saying that he, like his Likud predecessors, wants enough time to move so many Jews onto Palestinian land that there will be no future possibility for the Palestinians to establish their own state.

RECOMMENDED READING:

Bell, J. Bowyer, Terror Out of Zion, New York, St. Martin's Press, 1977.

Bethell, Nicholas, The Palestine Triangle: The Struggle for the Holy Land, 1935-48. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1979.

Brenner, Lenni, The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir, London, Zed Books Ltd., 1984.

Frank, Gerald, The Deed, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1963.

Marton, Kati, A Death in Jerusalem, New York, Pantheon Books, 1994.

Quigley, John, Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice, Durham, Duke University Press, 1990.

Sprinzak, Ehud, The Ascendance of Israel's Radical Right, New York, Oxford University Press, 1991.

FOOTNOTES:

1 An interesting probe into the beliefs of the Stern Gang, of which Shamir was a leader, and of Shamir's character is in Israel Shahak's "Yitzhak Shamir, Then and Now, Middle East Policy, Vol. 1, No. 1, 1992. Shahak recalls the assassination of Lehi commander Eliyahu Giladi on Shamir's orders, and concludes that Shamir should be "perceived as an individual ready to murder his closest friends without any residual misgivings," p. 38. Shamir's direct involvement in the 1948 assassination of Count Bernadotte and his early career are detailed in Marton, A Death in Jerusalem. For a profile of Shamir's governing style, see Glenn Frankel, Washington Post, 10/16/88. A good study of Shamir's beliefs is in Avishai Margalit, "The Violent Life of Yitzhak Shamir," The New York Review of Books, 5/14/92. A general profile of Shamir can be found in Sol Stern &Louis Rappoport, "Israel's Man of the Shadows," The Village Voice, 7/3/84, while his early career is detailed in Gerald Frank's The Deed. A sympathetic profile by one of his aides is given in a story by Sarah Honig, Jerusalem Post International Edition, 1/6/90. Also see Mark Tessler, "The Political Right in Israel:Its Origins, Growth, and Prospects,"Journal of Palestine Studies, Winter 1986, pp. 12-55.

2 Quigley, Palestine and Israel , p. 176.

3 Foundation for Middle East Peace, Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, Special Report, July 1991 (Washington, DC); Aronson, "Creating Facts."

4 Author interview with Geoffrey Aronson, 1/24/94.

5 Associated Press, Washington Times, 5/9/92.

6 Elfi Pallis, "The Likud Party:APrimer," Journal of Palestine Studies, Winter 1992, pp. 42-43.

7 Avishai Margalit, "The Violent Life of Yitzhak Shamir, The New York Review of Books, 5/14/92.

8 Clyde Haberman, New York Times, 1/21/92.

9 Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, Washington Post, 1/24/92.

10 New York Times, 1/27/92.

11 Clyde Haberman, New York Times, 2/14/92.

12 Clyde Haberman, New York Times, 5/15/92.

13 Jackson Diehl, Washington Post, 5/28/92.

14 Clyde Haberman, New York Times , 6/27/92; David Hoffman, Washington Post, 6/27/92.

15 Edward Cody, Washington Post, 6/26/96.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:06 PM

Mike Miller, I have to admit, you do seem to have a pretty contemptuous attitude toward people who aren't Jewish. I think this statement says a lot: "Before that era of Realpolitik, we were a bunch of cute Kibbutzniks dancing the hora."

You shouldn't assume that everyone who isn't Jewish is an anti-semite, or even that they feel superior to, or subatantively different than Jews. That's a pretty bigoted attitude.

Intelligent people are seeing innocent people on both sides of the dispute dying in unacceptible numbers. We want to know the facts on both sides of the divide. That makes us people who are concerned with humanity, not anti-semites.

The reason the Israelis are not being percieved as the victims by some is because right now, to many people, they look like the oppressors. I know that you, and many in Israel feel that the methods being employed right now, ie; when they strike us, we strike back in an even bigger way, is a good method for accomplishing the peace and security that you and they want and clearly diserve.

However, I think the effectiveness of this method is still in question. You and your fellow Israelis will find out eventually if it was a good one. But right now, it's not looking so good.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:08 PM

In the interests of fairness (since the nameless GUEST above does not wish to be disingenuous), here is the agenda of The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs, reprinted from this page: http://www.washington-report.org/html/stand.html

We've maintained since our founding, in January 1982, that real stability in the Middle East and real security for both Arabs and Israelis, must start with an Arab-Israeli land-for-peace settlement based upon U.N. Security Council Resolution 242, including full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, Gaza, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights, and equal rights for all of the Muslim, Christian and Jewish residents of a shared Jerusalem.

We also have suggested that the dispute is not between Arabs and Israelis, but rather moderates versus extremists in each camp. Now we include the objective of fair and free elections to choose Palestinian leaders to finalize a peace agreement with Israel. Our goal, therefore, has been the fine-tuning of U.S. Middle East policies to support the moderates in Israel, in the Arab States, and in the rest of the Islamic world.

These proposals for bettering U.S. relations with all Middle Eastern countries have been characterized as "Arabist" or "Israel bashing" by partisans of special interests in the Middle East. But they provided the underpinning for the principles of peace signed Sept. 13, 1993, and the Cairo, Oslo II and Wye Plantation implementation agreements that followed.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:10 PM

will you not agree that Sharon (beginning with his unwelcome visit) has done much to flame the passions of the Palestinians? will you not also agree that Israel MUST make some concession on Jerusalem? That city is one of the holiest places in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. Is there a resolution, in your minds, to this problem? Is there room for compromise?

Seems fairly straightforward and non-rhetorical to me, SharonA. I am asking the opinion of a Sabra and an American Jew who lived there what their opinion is of these questions. Mike Miller is certainly vocal and spouting with righteous indignation, but he steadfastly refuses to get into the type of discussion that can lead us into understanding. I appreciate your approach. It is calm and well reasoned. This guy demonstrates better than anything I can say exactly why the Israeli's and the Palestinians will never resolve this themselves. They both can spout these arguments with the same sense of resolve and righteousness. And the hippocrites in the rest of the Arab League who treat the Palestinian issue as sacred, while treating the Palestinians like shit, have a vested political interest in seeing this go on. And, of course, Lepus Rex at least id's himself, but that is all the good I can say about the shit he spouts. So I am down to trying to get these folks to just tell what their opinion is of my questions re: Jerusalem and Netanyahu/Sharon. And I am very interested in yours, as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:13 PM

And I feel that I am in a position to say the things that I have said. My first boyfriend was Jewish. We were together as a couple for almost four years. His family didn't approve of me because I wasn't Jewish. Jews aren't the only people who know what prejudice feels like.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:14 PM

Carol: I'm acquainted with Mike from one of the local folk-song societies in my area, and I can say from th personal experience of chatting with him that his attitude toward people who are not Jewish is not at all contemptuous, when interacting with them socially. He's been nothing but friendly toward me!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:21 PM

I'm glad to hear that, Sharon. Maybe it would help Mike's cause if you helped him to understand that here in this forum, his words are being read by people all over the world, and of many different nationalities, races, religions, ethic groups, and attitudes. Maybe he doesn't understand this.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:22 PM

SharonA,

Thank you for quoting the Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs' agenda for all to read. It is the agenda in the Middle East which I wholeheartedly support as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:32 PM

And what "shit" do I "spout," Mick?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:33 PM

Big Mick,

I think the more salient questions to ask of Mike Miller are: what Israeli political party(ies) does he support? Does he favor the settlement policies of the current Israeli administration? Does he accept (as most the world does) there must be a land for peace settlement which includes East Jerusalem? And finally, what is his position on the repatriation of Palestinian refugees--that of the current administration, or that of the Labour party, currently in opposition?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,joe, in the pool
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:37 PM

Wow! what a bloody thread...

as the song go's "there arn't arf' some clever bastards"

just as there are on both sides on the conflict!

but. the winner will not be found until all of the other sides are dead or slaves..that is the will of ALL GODS..

JOE

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:37 PM

Big Mick: Ah! You're referring to your post of 31-Mar-02 - 11:26 PM, I see. Thanks for clarifying; as I said before, I was reading your questions in your post of 01-Apr-02 - 11:37 AM (a different set of questions!).

My thoughts? Okay, my answer to your first two questions is "yes" (ASharon has done much to flame the passions of the Palestinians, and Israel MUST make some kind of concession on Jerusalem since it's a holy city for three major religions [and it would be nice if everyone from each of those religions could feel safe to go there to worship!]). But the answers to the questions of resolution and compromise have evaded both cultural groups for millenia. Unless both sides resolve to put aside an emnity that is part of their religious history and tradition (and I don't see that happening real soon, if ever!), then there will be no peace for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:46 PM

P.S. – Again in the interests of being fair, Arafat and the Palestinians have done much to flame Ariel Sharon's passions!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 04:50 PM

SharonA,

Again, you demonstrate your ignorance. This conflict is not centuries old. This conflict began when, as a result of the British turning their back on the Palestine protectorate and dumping the bloody mess they'd made into the lap of the newly formed United Nations, the area was partitioned, the Zionists declared Israel a state, a civil war ensued, etc etc--all of which happened between the end of WWII and 1950. Hardly "millenia"!

The many United Nations resolutions passed since that time have been quite clear. If Israel would simply comply with those resolutions, rather than continuing to engage in conquest of the Palestinian lands, we would have peace in the Middle East. I agree with Bobert. Stop focusing on suicide bombers, and start focusing on the historic precedent set this week by the Arab League's declaration of intent to accept Israel as an equal neighboring state. And the United Nations resolutions. And world opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:26 PM

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 04:50 PM: I said "millenia" and I meant "millenia". I was referring to the fact that, ultimately, the Israel-Palestine conflict is rooted in the Jewish-Muslim conflict. I refer you to Joel, chapter 3, in the Old Testament of the Bible (King James version), specifically Joel 3:4 which says:

"Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompence me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head"

In other words, "you retaliate against me and I'll retaliate against you" and on and on it goes. So, you see, bad blood between Israel and Palestine goes back millenia.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:36 PM

There are some conflicts which can never end in victory. This is one such.

Retaliation is not a form of defence. It is a form of suicide. That is more obvious when the retaliation directly takes the form of suicide/murder bombs and such -but all retaliation taken in the full knowledge that it's effect will be more deaths among one's own people is still a form of suicide.

And staking everything on some dream of victory is a form of suicide as well.

"There is no way to peace. Peace is the way." That's what Gandhi once said.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:43 PM

A brief timeline of Palestine's history, here: http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 05:55 PM

I guess this is a bit of a divergence from the gist of this thread, but I guess you've got me going now, Mike Miller.

So it was only a few weeks ago that I was told that it's ok for me to not be Jewish because I'm a cute little Shiksa. (A word that I understand is used as a perjorative.) Now, this was told to me by someone I consider to be a friend. Still, if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was a Gentile who said something like "it's ok for you not to be a Gentile because your're cute when you dance the Hora around the campfire", I guess you would consider that anti-Semitism. But it seems that calling me a cute little Shiksa is acceptible.

So I guess you've hit a raw nerve with me when you call everyone who disagrees with you an anti-semite. We're all individuals, and we should be taken as we are. You can't have it both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:11 PM

SharonA,

The timeline that you link to is from a PLO propaganda site full of revisionist history. If you read through it, you'll see that every inch of Israel, is occupied Palestinian territory.

The biblical passage is not relevant to this discussion because the Palestinians of today are not the non-Jews of biblical-era Palestine. The people that are today called Palestinians are Arabs. The first Arabs crossed the Jordan in the 7th Century A.D.

BTW, before 1948, it was the Jews of Palestine who called themselves "Palestinian."

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:24 PM

GUEST who posted on 01-Apr-02 - 06:11 PM : I'm willing to admit that I don't know it all, as you seem to think you do, but I wish you would provide some links to back up what you are touting as factual information, preferably from a website without an agenda that some consider to be "Arabist" or "Israel-bashing". I would rather get information from sources that, at the very least, identify themselves rather than from anonymous individuals whose knowledge and credibility are unknown to me.

In the meantime, I will provide a link to this site, The Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, in hopes that you won't dismiss this as "revisionist" as well: http://www.ipcri.org/index1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 06:45 PM

More links for GUEST to dismiss:

Link to The Jewish History Resource Center at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem: http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/Internetresources/Zionism.htm

Link to MidEastWeb's Bibilography of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, History of Palestine, Zionism and Arab Nationalism: http://www.mideastweb.org/biblio.htm

A very brief timeline of the history of Judaism, from the University of Pennsylvania: http://philo.ucdavis.edu/zope/home/bruce//RST23/chart.html

Link to "Land Forces of Britain, the Empire and Commonwealth" with lots of military history about Israel, on Regiments.orghttp://www.regiments.org/milhist/mideast/israel.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 07:11 PM

More history:

Link to the Internet Modern History Sourcebook's section on the Middle East since 1914: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook54.html

The Arab-Israeli conflict: http://www.historyteacher.net/Arab-Israeli_Conflict.htm

Timeline of the History of the Arab-Israeli conflict: http://www.aipac.org/timeline2.PDF

Info on The Arab League from al-bab.com: http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league.htm

Timeline of a History of Jordan: http://www.ctsp.co.il/LBS/LBS_history_of_jordan.htm Note that here it says: "633 - 900 CE   The Arabs invaded from the south and conquered Syria and Palestine. Under the rule of the Arab caliphs, the Muslim religion gained native support and the Arabic language was used." Okay, so the Arabs conquered Palestine, and the native Palestinian population was forced to adopt Arab culture, but did the native Palestinians not remain in Palestine?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 07:47 PM

Musicmic starts 5 consecutive sentences with the word "they" and 3:30 GUEST almost wears out the "we" word. Mrrzy is sticking to the premise that all territorial conflict comes from the barrel of the gun. Well, I don't want these folks on my PEACE negotiation team. Period.

I would like McGrath, however, who moves beyond the we-them, winner-loser mentality that promises nothing more than misery and hefty bank balances in the accounts of the Masters of War.

The United States, folks, is the remaining WORLD POWER and has an obligation to lead this increasingly shrinking globalized, tribalized world toward peaceful coexistance. Where as if may not be PROFITABLE, it is the only SANE course for the future of the planet.

There exists a PEACE proposal that calls for the undeniable right for Isreal to exist and for "normanlized" relations between Isreal and her Arab neighbors. This is what Isreal has asked for. In exchancge, a Palestinian state that comprised only the lands that were occupied by the Palestinians after the June wars. That is all the Palestinians have ever asked for.

So where's the hitch?

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL!!! Part 3....

Peace.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:21 AM

Gee, this is great. I finally found an opponant willing to identify her position. Carol C., I'm sorry you got dumped by a Jew. I promise you that we are not, all, tasteless cads. Since you were candid enough to share your Judiism- by- injection, it seems only fair that I do the same. I have been, for the last twenty years, married to an Irish-American lady who doesn't discuss the Middle East conflict with me because she knows that I cannot be objective about it. I have never claimed to be objective. It is my people under the gun, my family, my friends. No one understands the concept of self-interest better than I do. Liberalism and tolerance are best felt from a place of safety. In a better world, I am all in favor of rights and self-determination for everyone. In a safer world, I will champion the oppressed (as I have spent a lifetime doing) But, I am convinced that the radical factions of Islam will never cease their attacks on Israel and, unless the rest of the world is prepared to guard an Israeli-Palestinian border, my priority must be the safety of my people. It is sad that you guys cant see the basic humanity of my position. Of course, there will never be peace without a Palestinian state. I look forward to the day when the two peoples can live as neighbors. The war has taken a heavy toll on Israel. We have lost lives, we have lost years and we have bartered our souls for security. Golda Meir once said, "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but we can, never, forgive them for making our sons, killers".

I resent your charecterization of Israelis as bloodthirsty oppressors. Israelis long for peace, they sing of peace. They have traded buffer zones for peace. They have made peace with every Arab neighbor willing to recognize their existence. The present conflict is a victory for the forces of reaction on both sides. The last thing that the fundimentalists want is coexsistance. But, please, dont sit in the safety of distance and suggest that everything will be OK if we all just stop this ugly war stuff. Hamas is not going to stop their raids when a treaty is signed. The sad truth is, they increase the attacks in response to peace talks. If you guys can tell me how to get those true believers out of the way (without a second Exodus), you will have my full support. Until they are neutralized, however, the status will stay quo.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:41 AM

Mike Miller, I am not your opponent. That is your first wrong assumption.

I was not "dumped" by a Jew. That is your second wrong assumption.

I have never characterized Israelis as bloodthirsty oppressors. I honestly have no idea where you're getting that. I said that some people are now percieving Israel as the oppressor in this situation. And that's the truth, whether or not I agree with that assesment.

In fact, I have not even stated what my position on this whole matter is.

And the reason I have not, is because I don't have one yet. I'm trying to get more information before I form an opinion. That's why I've been asking clarifying questions.

You've been putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, and I have to admit that I do resent that. You seem determined to make enemies of those who are not your enemies here in the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:44 AM

Right you are, Carol C. I stand corrected.

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:51 AM

Thank you, Mike Miller.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:58 AM

Mike Miller, I think you like to hear yourself talk. You just run off this stuff and then say "oops, sorry". And you have yet to propose or say anything relevant to what the solution is. I hope we get to meet and socialize and play music one day, but discussing this crisis ain't doing you any good.

GUEST of 01 April, 4:33PM, that may be the more relevant question for you. But I asked what I want to know. Nice that you know what I need to know better than I.

Lepus, old chum. Go back and read your posts. That is the same thing that Mike is doing, just from the other side. And it is a load of shit, IMHO.

I like rousing, heated, debate. I can't stand folks that just spout someone else's rhetoric.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 05:02 AM

Well, a lot has been going on since I was at the music festival. So I guess I'd better be our roving reporter on the situation here- probably inasmuch as I see it and hear it reltime- as well as how I perceive it.

We went off yesterday to stick flyers on cars, advertising our upcoming festival- which will take place if the violence does not seriously escalate- even more. We passed through pastoral Arab and Jewish towns and villages. It has been raining a lot here( for once) so all was green- the hills and valleys are beautiful now and if all can be put out of mind- one might almost be in Tuscany- or somewhere equally as beautiful and peaceful. Tha Arab towns could be Arab towns anywhere from Turkey to India- except for the fact that most shop and road signs are in Hebrew and Arabic. The shops are full of goods, car and insurance agencies abound as do electricity showrooms and bridal stores. There seemed to be many women drivers , which you don't find in many Arab countries. Of course they don't wear veils, but modern clothing, you do see some old timers in robes and keffiyas though.The population is friendly and we have no fears in stopping and asking directions. Probably a mirror of what could be - if things were normal and quiet in the West Bank.

At each venue we visited , in the music festival (held at different villages) there were cars with "Peace Now" and "End the Occupation Now" stickers . We met musician friends doing their thing at each place- and stopped to take in some wonderful classic Irish traditional music played by "Evergreen"- an excellent Israeli group. They have recently been fortified by a percussionist who was with Riverdance for 5 years. We travelled home late at night- again no problems- plenty of police cars on the roads - making random checks- though we were not stopped. For a few hours we forgot the news and tragedies.

Some of our friends have sons who have been called up and are serving in Ramallah or other Palestinian towns. I cannot imagine them or , in fact, any Israeli mother or father being proud of the fact that their sons are "killing Palestinians" Defending our population -yes- and if I could prevent any terrorist act- in any way- I too would be proud. I do believe that the only way out is to talk- but in the meantime- confiscation of hundreds of weapons and destruction of weapon workshops and bomb factories , must be helping prevent many more deaths- at least in the short term.

Guest- etc is a silly thing to use as proof of repression. Nobody is stopping them if they want to- and I mean that- nobody. Phone lines to the West Bank and Gaza are open. Plenty of people there have computers with access to the internet- There is freedom of reportage and of expression. 20 European supporters of Palestine got through to Arrafat's office. The whole thing was reported world wide. 20 got through but 40 left( ie 20 probable terrorists) Israeli soldiers did not lift a finger to stop them.

I could go into lots of comparisons here- defence of Israeli policies in this that or the other. I won't- I just want you to know that what you see on Tv is not the half of what goes on - one way or the other. Israel remains basically a decent humane society, whose governments have and have had a few bad policies( of which I am ashamed)- along with a lot of damn fine ones of which I am proud. And , Lepus Rex, in what way am I incorrect? Just for wanting to live here? Perhaps I shouldn't - perhaps I should go back where I came from. Funny, when I lived in the country in which I was born- I had that thrown at me more than once. So I'm staying here in Israel- if that's all right with you. Jack The Lad- in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:39 AM

I've been appreciating most of the input here, but I must echo SharonA's point and wonder why the various guests can't at least put something in the "from" line - just a number even - to help us all (including the guests themselves) to distinguish one from another.

SharonA,I'm beginning to realise I agree with you on a lot of things, but if the twin towers had been UN territory I think they would still be there.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Feder
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:36 AM

From Thomas Friedman, New York Times, March 31, 2002.

The outcome of the war now under way between the Israelis and Palestinians is vital to the security of every American, and indeed, I believe, to all of civilization. Why? Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers — strapped with dynamite and dressed as Israelis — to achieve their political aims. And it is working.

Israelis are terrified. And Palestinians, although this strategy has wrecked their society, feel a rising sense of empowerment. They feel they finally have a weapon that creates a balance of power with Israel, and maybe, in their fantasies, can defeat Israel. As Ismail Haniya, a Hamas leader, said in The Washington Post, Palestinians have Israelis on the run now because they have found their weak spot. Jews, he said, "love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die." So Palestinian suicide bombers are ideal for dealing with them. That is really sick.

The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, à la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.

The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours.

Let's be very clear: Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated.

But how? This kind of terrorism can be curbed only by self-restraint and repudiation by the community itself. No foreign army can stop small groups ready to kill themselves. How do we produce that deterrence among Palestinians? First, Israel needs to deliver a military blow that clearly shows terror will not pay. Second, America needs to make clear that suicide bombing is not Israel's problem alone. To that end, the U.S. should declare that while it respects the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism, it will have no dealings with the Palestinian leadership as long as it tolerates suicide bombings. Further, we should make clear that Arab leaders whose media call suicide bombers "martyrs" aren't welcome in the U.S.

Third, Israel must tell the Palestinian people that it is ready to resume talks where they left off with Mr. Clinton, before this intifada. Those talks were 90 percent of the way toward ending the occupation and creating a Palestinian state. Fourth, U.S. or NATO troops must guarantee any Israeli-Palestinian border.

"The Spanish Civil War was the place where the major powers all tested out their new weapons before World War II," said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. "Well, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today is the Spanish Civil War for the 21st century. A big test is taking place of whether suicide terrorism can succeed as a strategy for liberation. It must be defeated, but that requires more than a military strategy."

The Palestinians are so blinded by their narcissistic rage that they have lost sight of the basic truth civilization is built on: the sacredness of every human life, starting with your own. If America, the only reality check left, doesn't use every ounce of energy to halt this madness and call it by its real name, then it will spread. The Devil is dancing in the Middle East, and he's dancing our way.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:45 AM

Feder: I don't know how to stop a suicide bomber either, but to "deliver a military blow that clearly shows terror will not pay" does not seem to hold out much hope as an effective plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,native
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:03 AM

The old testament is realy a history of the Jewish people .notjing to do with Chirstins,God didnt give Palistine to the Jews .In 1917 General Allenby cleared out the Turks from Palestine,and the British Goverment desided to make a homeland for the Jews in Palestine.The agreement was that they would protect the other people in the country and observe their religian.They have do a bloody fine job of it. Notice the price of oil ,and why the price is going to skyrocket.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:35 AM

Fionn: You may be right about the UN and the WTC in NYC (and you're definitely right that we agree on a lot of things! *G*). My quip about NYC had been in response to the statement by Troll, who said: "Until the question of who controls Jerusalem is settled, there will be no peace in the region. I suggest that the UN move its headquarters there and declare it an international city under UN governance."

Maybe Troll is right that Jerusalem needs to become an "international city" (are there any others in existence now under UN governance? Can the UN actually "govern" anyplace, under its charter?). My point was that, even so, the situation in the surrounding area wouldn't change.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:24 AM

"Once more unto the breach my friends, once more.
Or close the breach up with our English dead."

Or Palestinian dead. Or Israeli.

Charging in banners waving in support of victory for the side that we identify as our side is not going to help anyone. And it's very easy when we are far away from the killing fields.

The best and only - and fragile - hope lies in the kind of thing that Jack the Lad tells us about, people trying to build bridges that reach out to people who share so much in common across in the other community. There are still people like that on both sides. We should be trying to help them, not throwing all our energy into vicarious fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:25 AM

(Sorry - I'm having to post this in parts because that's how my browser/server is working today)

It seems clear that there is a settlement within reach. There is the Saudis Peace Plan, accepted by all the Arab governments; there was the deal hammered out in 2000/2001, which in its essentials had been agreed by both sides when the new Sharon government pulled the rug from under it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:27 AM

(If that sounds strange, here is what the then Israel Justice Minister Yossi Beilin has to say about it: "It is easy for many Israelis to cling to the belief that the former prime minister, Ehud Barak, offered Mr Arafat "everything" while Mr Arafat answered him with the intifada. And indeed, Mr Barak did make a considerable peace offer in July 2000 at the Camp David summit. However, it must also be remembered that by December 2000, Mr Arafat had agreed to the Clinton peace plan, as had Mr Barak. Both men did so with reservations, and this act of compromise occurred at the height of the intifada.

"But instead of accepting the successful talks that had taken place between Israel and the Palestinians at Taba in Egypt in January 2001 as a way towards a final settlement, Ariel Sharon decided, after being elected prime minister, to terminate the peace process."

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:28 AM

The main thing that stands in the way is the mountain of bodies on both sides, most of them innocent of anything that could deserve death. A barrier of vendetta that grows higher every day - and a barrier that grow higher every day, and which can never be breached by more killing. And a barrier that is exploited by those who do not wish any end to violence short of total victory.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 10:54 AM

Jack the Lad paints a lovely rosey picture, doesn't he? Unfortunately, that picture doesn't reflect the daily realities of Palestinians living under the IDF's boot in Ramallah, Beit Jalla, etc.

As to the international city designation SharonA, maybe if you had actually read any of the history at the websites you went shopping for to confirm your personal ignorant opinions, you would know what the UN has said about the need for making Jerusalem an international city. For decades.

It is naive and passive/aggressive in the extreme to suggest that people who are allowed to attend music festivals, who can afford cars to put peace bumperstickers on, and who have the freedom to drive those cars without fear of being shot at with Israeli rockets and IDF machine gun fire, somehow represent the "real" situation for Palestinians living under the Israeli occupation.

As I said earlier, we have no one from the Palestinian side living in the West Bank or Gaza contributing here, to share their lived experiences. That makes everything here being said very one sided. Just like the Irish question being debated here, with no one living in Ardoyne in a republican community contributing here makes the "I live here, so I know" claims spurious at best.

Wars don't get fought in middle class and wealthy neighborhoods. They get fought in poor people's neighborhoods. And that is why we keep hearing "I live here, so I know" stories on Mudcat. They are told by middle class contributors, for whom daily repression by armed soldiers is NOT the reality they live with, period. They have no right to claim that their perspective is a legitimate one for the people their government has demonized as terrorists and enemies of their state.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:05 AM

Well, I don't feel too badly about being "dissed" by GUEST when, in the same breath, (s)he disses Jack the Lad for being out of touch with reality! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:10 AM

I never said Jack the Lad was out of touch with reality. I said his experiences can't be interpreted as representative of the experiences of Palestinians living under Israel's boot in the West Bank and Gaza.

You don't read very well either, do you SharonA?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:16 AM

For those interested, here is a link to the United Nations website, which a link to every single General Assembly resolution on the "Question of Palestine" (as they refer to it) going back to 1947. You can also access the resolutions passed by the Security Council, and read the history from the perspective of the United Nations there as well.

Instead of spouting off ill-informed, dangerous, and ignorant opinions in Internet discussion forums, it appears as though many Mudcat posters' time would be better spent educating themselves about the issues from sources other than Fox and CNN News.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/res_f.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:19 AM

GUEST: Here's what I read: "Jack the Lad paints a lovely rosey picture, doesn't he? Unfortunately, that picture doesn't reflect the daily realities of Palestinians living under the IDF's boot in Ramallah, Beit Jalla, etc." I took that to mean that you were saying that Jack was out of touch with what you consider to be "reality".

Perhaps, GUEST, you should read what you yourself have written.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:22 AM

I did read what I wrote SharonA, and stand by it. Jack the Lad is not Palestinian, and is not living in Ramallah. Therefore, his rosy picture does not reflect the daily realities of those people, now does it?

BTW, since you are too lazy to learn the history, let me bring it to you in an easy to digest form, the blurb on Jerusalem from the United Nations website:

"Jerusalem (Al-Quds in Arabic, Jerushalayim in Hebrew) is the site of the Western (Wailing) Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the Passion of Crucifixion; and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the first kibla and third holiest sanctuary of Islam. The City has been the object of conflicting claims by Jews and Palestinian Arabs, both peoples consider it the embodiment of their national essence and right to self-determination. The UN adopted in 1947 the Partition Plan for Palestine (Resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947) which retained the unity of Jerusalem by providing for an international regime under UN control. That formula, however, did not materialize. With the all-out war between the two communities in 1948, which was joined by the neighboring Arab States, Jerusalem was placed at the heart of the conflict. The Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement of 1949 formalized the de facto division of the City into the eastern sector, including the Old City, controlled by Jordan, and the western sector, or the new City controlled by the new State of Israel. The 1967 war, which resulted in the occupation by Israel of East Jerusalem, reopened the debate over the two competing claims. Israel, which annexed East Jerusalem in 1980, considers that "Jerusalem, whole and united, is the capital of Israel", and wants the City to "remain forever under Israel's sovereignty." It invested vast resources into changing the physical and demographic characteristics of the City. The Israeli claim has not been recognized by the international community which rejects the acquisition of territory by war and considers any changes on the ground illegal and invalid. On the other hand, the Palestinians have claimed East Jerusalem as the capital of a future independent State of Palestine to be established in the territories occupied since 1967. The status of the Holy Places has a special significance in that debate and proposals have been made for their internationalization. With the developments in the peace process since 1991, there is great concern that the evolving de facto situation on the ground should not prejudge the outcome of negotiations on the status of the City. (DPR Study - The Status of Jerusalem) "

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:29 AM

There you go folks. The United Nations was opposed to the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem since the Israeli's forcibly took it during the 1967 war. The United Nations has never recognized Israel's claim of sovereignty over East Jerusalem, and opposed the 1980 annexation.

The United States, and the former apartheid regime of South Africa (whom Israel provided with arms during the international boycott) are the only countries in the world to support these Israeli actions. The only countries in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:36 AM

I am not painting any picture just reporting what I see , in the north of Israel- in areas populated by both Jews and Arabs. In my postings there is certainly no "aggression" as Guest puts it. Just things I see and hear- but again he/she tries to twist things. The Arabs I see and mix with are Israeli citizens- under no-one's occupation- and by all accounts they'd much rather be Israeli citizens than citizens of the yet to be Palestinian state. What I see is what could be achieved if both sided saw some sense. I never said that what I see is the reality for the West Bank . What is happening there is the result of tit for tat violence. Let the suicide bombers cease and desist, allowing the Israeli army to withdraw, and I am sure that both sides can still talk and find a way to end the killing. Abu Ghosh- an Arab village outside of Jerusalem,has one of the most well known music festivals in the area. One young resident of Abu Ghosh found herself at the centre of a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. She was in shock, but not injured- and was interviewed saying"I am an Arab and I don't understand how anyone can do things like that". Yes I am a music loving ,festivalgoing, car driving sticker sticking middle class "passive" Jew. So how can I know anything? Must go now- we are having some Shiksa and Goy Arabs round for dinner, but first I think I'll go and opress some Palestinians. Jack The Lad - in Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM

Quoting from Jack the Lad's post to this thread on 31-Mar-02 - 02:36 PM

I am against the occupation – I believe we should leave the territories to their majority of Arab citizens and withdraw to the 1967 borders . Yet how do I argue with those among us who say "Then what? Did we have peace and security before 1967?– Did we heck! Did anybody ask the Arabs to declare war on us in 1948? We accepted the UN decision then- they didn't – so what do they expect?"

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:07 PM

BTW, the UN website has a section set aside for its actions against terrorism: http://www.un.org/terrorism/

Here's an article from this page on the UN website: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=3247&Cr=palestin&Cr1=annan

Annan calls on Israel to end attack on Palestinian Authority, urges Palestinians to accept US envoy's plan

29 March – Addressing an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council convened late on Friday in response to the rapidly escalating violence in the Middle East, Secretary-General Kofi Annan urged Israel to halt its assault on the Palestinian Authority while calling on the Palestinians to accept the peace proposals put forward by United States Special Envoy Anthony Zinni.

"Destroying the Palestinian Authority will not bring Israel closer to peace," Mr. Annan said, adding that he had consistently voiced criticism over Israel's use of disproportionate lethal force, especially in civilian populated areas in response to terrorist attacks. "Such use of force will bring neither peace nor security to Israel," he said.

At the same time he said he understood the anger of the Israeli Government and people over those "horrific terrorist" acts, which, he said, were aimed at undermining any prospect for a political settlement.

"The intention of such attacks, which I have consistently and unreservedly condemned as morally repugnant, is to subvert the possibility of any peaceful settlement," Mr. Annan stressed. "Terrorism will not bring the Palestinian people closer to the establishment of an independent Palestinian State."

The Secretary-General called on both Prime Minister Sharon and Chairman Arafat to exercise responsible leadership at this time. "I would urge that they make every effort to take advantage of the outcome of the Arab League Summit in Beirut, which outlined a widely welcomed vision for full peace in the region," he said.

"At times like this it is possible to lose sight of the fact there is a path away from violence and war," the Secretary-General emphasized. "Via the Mitchell recommendations, the parties should move quickly to achieve the two-State vision expressed in Security Council resolution 1397 of 12 March 2002, which is based on land for peace, and Security Council resolutions 242 and 338."

Speaking at the outset of the Council debate, in which representatives of some 30 nations took part, Mr. Annan urged them to consider not only the alarming deterioration of the situation on the ground, but also how the international community "can help ensure that your resolutions, in particular 1397, can become a reality, and how the international community can help the parties get back to the table."

-----------------------------------

So it appears that even Kofi Annan says that it's the Palestinians who are the terrorists. The Israelis are using "disproportionate lethal force... in response to terrorist attacks." Guess that answers the question that started this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:24 PM

These reports are from March 31st to April 1st from the newly established Palestinian Independent Media Center. The Independent Media Center and Al Jazeera are two of a handful of media sources not controlled by Western media conglomerate outlets still reporting from the West Bank.

Since Al Jazeera currently only has the capacity to report in Arabic (they are working on English language translation outlets), Indy Media, once again, is one of the few independent media groups reporting on the ground in the area, in any language.

War in Bethlehem Update 1900 1900 Update: Intermittent fighting is continuing throughout Bethlehem, Aza, Ayda and Deheishe. Loud explosions followed by machine gun clashes continue. There is now a 24-hour curfew imposed on the city by IDF, who have taken complete control of the city except for sporadic resistance. Internationals are ordered out of the area and some have entered into negotiations with their consulates. Israel and US authorities have said they are "not re-occupying," but instead just imposing martial law for at least 3-4 weeks.

1430 Update: More details are coming in about the fighting going on in Deheishe. IDF brought 2 tanks in with them for the invasion, and they have been attacked with homemade bombs by Palestinian children who are 12-13 years old. There are IDF injuries, and IDF called in 15 tanks after the bombings this morning. IDF soldiers entered from all sides of the camp. More updates to come as available.

Update 1400 Bethlehem: IDF attacks continue throughout the city of Bethlehem. At Deheishe, an IDF tank has been hit by a bomb. Intense clashes continue here.

Ayda and Aza camps in Bethlehem have had their power cut.

British citizens have been denied evacuation by Israel. International consular officials are being denied access to international civilians in Ramallah.

Tanks have surrounded the IMC office in Bethlehem proper.

Al-Jazeera is reporting that IDF has striked a church in Bethlehem, priest killed, nuns injured, statue of Virgin Mary damaged.

URGENT: Bethlehem Update 08.45: The whole Bethlehem area has been declared a closed military zone and no press are allowed admittance. There are fierce gunbattles raging and the Tanzim (Palestininan resistance fighters) are being pushed toward Manger Square.

The Star Hotel, where some of our international delegation are staying, has 10 tanks stationed outside. Journalists are also with the group. An Al Jazeera journalist has been shot whilst on the 5th floor of the hotel. A bulldozer has just been sighted driving past Azza refugee camp. There are troops in all the refugee camps, as well as tanks.

We fear for what is about to happen. These developments are extremely sinister. Please call your media and your politicians. Demand international action to stop a bloody slaughter.

Witnesses on the ground in Bethlehem: (for international dialing drop the 0 before the phone number) English - Heather 00 972 (0) 67 270 398 English - Georgina 00 972 (0) 55 840 767/ 00 972 (0) 674 5459 English – IMC Palestine 00 972 (0) 2 277 7558 Arabic/English - Bilal 00 972 (0) 52 814 992 Italian - Francesca 00 39 3389 77 3899 There are French speakers available as well.

UPDATE: Bethlehem 0601: URGENT UPDATE: Internationals in Ayda refugee camp are reporting heavy gunfire and IDF soldiers on the ground swarming throughout the camp. An Italian national, Ricardo, has just reported that the soldiers have taken over a house next to him and are firing from the roof. The international civilians are again repeating their plea for representitives from their respective governments to please come to Bethlehem and help stop the atrocities that are occurring right now in Ayda refugee camp.

0230: At the Ibda'a computer center we are experiencing massive fighting going on outside. We can hear clearly a tank rolling by the building and there is massive tank fire, mortar fire and gun clashes. It appears that the IDF have entered Dehaishe via the Ibda'a entrance. We are all on the floor as the very loud shots occur outside.

0145:Five tanks are coming into Beit Sahour led by a bulldozer past the YMCA. We are experiencing helicopter fire and Dehaishe refugee camp has soldiers conducting house to house searches.

2340: We have just received reports that the Israeli military has begun house to house searches in Dehaishe refugee camp and we are seeing F-16's fliying overhead now.

Fateh to IDF: "If you have to write your wills, do it before you come to Bethlehem" Fateh and Tanzim Warn IDF: Fateh, Tanzim and the popular resistance has issued a warning to Israeli Occupation Forces regarding their impending invasion of Bethlehem and Dehaishe.

UPDATE: RAMALLAH 0130: The Occupation forces are shelling a local security building Al Ammen Al Weka'ai [Preventitive Security]. This is a government building and there are 400+ people inside, 60 of whom are women. People reporting from the inside say that it is on fire and Huwaida Arraf is reporting that they are still hearing constant shelling very close to where they live near the city's main hospitals. It seems to be coming fromthe area of Amaari Refugee camp.

Please phone Neta Golan in the Presidential compound at 972 (0) 55 385 257

April 01, 2002 1600: The situation in Ramallah has deteriorated dramatically in the past few hours. Explosions are occurring throughout the city. Israeli soldiers are trying to forcible evict an Italian Peace Delegation headed by MEP Luisa Morgantini from the offices of the Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees. The army has destroyed a building next to the UPMRC. Witnesses describe how five Palestinians and two Italians were made to kneel on the ground at gunpoint. Anti-aircraft missiles have been used against buildings. Anti- tank missiles have been used against Palestinian gunman. Red cross ambulances are attempting to deliver food and medical supplies to the Presidential compound they have been denied access for over two hours. The Israeli army has set up equipment around the compound which is interfering with communications from those in the compound to the outside world. There is a dire shortage of food inside the compound and there is no running water. The international civilians have again reiterated their plea for their ambassadors to come to Ramallah immediately.

Twelve international civilians are at the hospital and have been all day to preventing Israeli forces from entering. The three Palestinian medics arrested yesterday were released late in the night in an unknown location. They had to make their way home on foot. The ten French civilians are now in Jerusalem and are being deported. the group includes Jose Bove.

Ashraf in Ramallah The world is seeing what is happening. History is repeating itself. It's a fascist world. This is fascism, how they [the Israeli soldiers] are dealing with people, detaining them in big schools and interrogating each one, writing numbers on them. And the shocking thing is this silence about what they are doing. These Israeli operations are targeting innocent civilians. People are terrified. The Israeli soldiers are shooting everything. Life here has totally stopped; it's dead.

* URGENT FROM PALESTINE

Friends as you may be hearing, seeing or reading the situation in Palestine is desperate. Israeli forces have invaded almost every area of Ramallah and we are under heavy tank shelling and gun fire. An unidentified number of people are dead and scores are injured. Ambulances have been prevented access and soldiers are opening fire on them.

There are international civilians in the areas under fire witnessing the carnage of the Israeli soldiers wreaked on the Palestinian people. Other internationals have been beaten down for trying to get into Ramallah to help Palestinians.

We extend a plea from the Palestinians and the international witnesses to all of our friends abroad to immediately phone and/or fax your representatives and respective governments to demand urgent and decisive action to stop Israel's brutal offensive on the Palestinian people

Gather, march, and protest in the streets! We need the voices of all good people around the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: PeteBoom
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:40 PM

Ya know? I've been reading this thread, shaking my headat some of the assertions made. I have one general observation -

Q: What is the difference between a "freedon fighter" and a "terrorist"?

A: What side you're on.

While this may seem offensive to some of our oh-so-smart and oh-so-sophisticated participants in this discussion, I'd like you to consider every successful revolutionary force in world history, consider their actions and the goal they intended to achieve. Unlike groups that are not aligned with national aspirations, groups campaigning against "oppression" (in whatever form that oppression takes) are usually willing to take extraordinary risks to achieve their objective - freedom and independence.

It is well and good for the arm-chair politicians and generals to debate what should be done or what the next step should be. It is natural for university students to argue one point or another.

In general, this debate reminds me of many here, and in other forums - where much invective is used by people with strong passions, and no knowledge beyond what they read in their "good" sources. Any sources that support alternative views are, of course, propoganda - and should be ignored. Right.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:43 PM

The Israeli armed forces are indeed "using disproportionate lethal force... in response to terrorist attacks." As are some Palestinians.

And every time it makes it harder to stop the cycle. One difference is that the Israeli government is in a position to stop their armed forces just like that, whereas the power of the Palestinian authority to stop the suicide bombers can hardly be more than marginal.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Wee Willie.
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:55 PM

Just heard on the BBC News that a 65 year old Catholic Priest has been shot dead in Ramallah and seven Nuns wounded, this took place in a Catholic Church. Will the Jews pull out our old friend from the US "FRIENDLY FIRE" again. According to the Sky News Reporter in Ramallah the Tanks were firing indiscriminatly. Wee Willie.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:52 PM

Wee Willie leaves out some details from the BBC report.

1) Palestinian gunmen are firing on the Israelis from within Catholic Churches.

2) The report of the priest being killed came from Palestinians not in the church.

3) The Vatican has already reported that the priest was not killed.

All of that was in Wee Willie's BBC report.

Then Wee Willie asks: Will the Jews pull out our old friend from the US "FRIENDLY FIRE" again.

By the way that Wee Willie frames the question, his anti-Semitism becomes obvious.

BTW Wee Willie, as most seven year olds already know, when you ask a question, you use a question mark (?) at the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:10 PM

On NPRs "Talk of the Nation," today (playing right now, actually), the subject is the history of martyrs. Enjoy, if you like. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:19 PM

Apparently, the Bush administration can't quite decide who and what a terrorist is right now either. The Cheney/Rumsfield camp believes Arafat is. The Powell/maybe Rice camp believes Arafat isn't.

The Cheney (Bush) administration took most of it's "war on terrorism" propaganda campaign pre-packaged from the Likud party white papers of the last several years (going back to Netanyahu in the mid-90s at least). In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, and especially during the US campaign in Afghanistan, that rhetoric seemed to work well enough to let the US get away with a bombing campaign that left many innocent Afghan civilians dead, homeless, and/or exiled. Afghan civilians who had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden, al Qaida, or Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. But we got away with the slaughter of innocents anyway.

A new rurmor has just emerged on the 24/7 network news programs (C-SPAN State Dept briefing, MSNBC), that the Bush administration's anti-terror intelligence team reports that Sadam Hussein is sending pin money to the families of suicide bombers, for new houses for their families, for college funds for siblings of the bombers, etc.

Sounds like a CIA planted fabrication if I ever heard one, and I've heard quite a few of them over the decades. The mainstream network media hacks have torn into this story like a pack of wolves on a wounded caribou.

I'm sure the next step will be the Bush administration's use of the "Sadam is funding the suicide bombers" story as justification for invading Iraq. And they might even get away with it, just like the US has gotten away with the slaughter of innocent Afghan civilians, while the Taliban and al Qaida leadership continue to evade capture.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: RichM
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 03:45 PM

Israel presents document linking PA to terror attacks
By Jonathan Lis and Amira Hass, Ha'aretz Correspondents

The IDF presented a document Tuesday that was seized in
the during a raid on the Ramallah office of Fuad
Shubeiki, who heads the Palestinian Authority's financia
l apparatus. The document, which was sent to Shubeiki by
the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, which is linked to
Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's Fatah
faction, lists the organization's demands from the PA for
suicide bombings that had already been carried out.

The document lists financial demands for ceremonies
honoring suicide bombers as well as money to support
families of the suicide bombers.

The fifth article of the document lists demands for
producing explosive devices: "The cost of supplying
electronic and chemical components for explosive devices
and bombs - this was our largest expense. The cost of
preparing a bomb is at least NIS 700. We need to equip
five to nine bombs each week for our cells in various
locations. NIS 5000 times four weeks equals NIS 20,000."

Article seven of the document details the "cost of 3,000
bullets for Kalachnikov rifles at a cost of NIS 7.5 per
bullet, and 30,000 bullets for M-16 rifles at a cost of
NIS 2 per bullet. We need the immediate transfer of funds
so as to make the purchase - NIS 22,500 for Kalachnikov
bullets and NIS 60,000 for M-16 bullets."

Alongside the document were comments and calculations
carried out by Shubeiki's office.

Colonel Miri Eisen, a senior intelligence officer who
presented the document, said that she did not have
information on whether the transfer of funds was carried
out, although since the letter was sent, several days
after September 11, 2001, eight members of the Al Aqsa
Martyrs Brigade had carried out suicide bombings in
Israel.

Eisen estimated Tuesday that Palestinian Authority
Chairman Yasser Arafat never signed documents tying him
to the terrorist activities of various organizations, but
that Shubeiki's signature, who is part of Arafat's inner
circle, testifies to the PA's involvement in acts of
terror.

Shubeiki was the individual who financed the purchase of
the Karine A weapons ship from Iran in December 2001.

Dore Gold, an advisor to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon,
said Tuesday, that Shubeiki had visited Baghdad in August
2001 so as to coordinate positions with the Iraqi
government, and that in May 2001 he was present at a
meeting in Moscow during which the draft for joint
activities between Iran and the PA was agreed upon.

Also seized in Shubeiki's office during the raid were
hundreds of thousands of counterfeit shekels, which
according to military estimates, were to be used to
purchase explosives.

The Palestinian Authority stated that the counterfeit
money seize in Arafat's Ramallah headquarters had been
seized by Palestinian preventative security forces and
belonged to Palestinian criminals that had collaborated
with Israeli felons.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 05:01 PM

Hey, guys, I think it's time to end this silly debate. The participants, myself included, are unlikely to change their positions or, even, consider the validity of another position. What's more, in such a charged atmosphere, passions solidify preconceptions and objective logic becomes an attackable flaw. I, only, chimed in because the first replies were so one sided that they demanded reply. I leave you with a few questions that you should think about for a while before you respond.

Is a Jewish state racist, by definition? If it is, how can you justify Moslim states?

Do you, really, think that the terrorism would end if a Palestinian state were established? Do you trust the peaceful intentions of the Islamic fundimentalisys?

If you disaprove of the Israeli response to the terrorist attacks, what do you propose they do, instead?

If you live in New York City, how do you think America should respond to the terrorists? If you dont live in a target area, try to imagine that you do (it's almost impossible to do, but try, anyway).

I wish you all rak shalom (nothing but peace)

Mike Miller

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:01 PM

Mike, et al: You ask folks to end a "silly debate", which it isn't, and then ask questions that others have answered over and over, but as I have done thru out this thread, I'm not going to get sucked into blame game, or bogged down in the details.

The bottom line is that there is a very hot war going on, that can be and needs to be stopped. There is a framework, the Saudi Peace Proposal, that addresses what both sides have said all along they want. If the US would get behind this proposal and SELL it the way they SOLD the Afganistan War then I believe it would represent a major step forward for mankind.

SUPPORT THE SAUDI PEACE PROPOSAL! Part 4........

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:36 PM

Bobert: Do you have a link to a website where we can read what the proposal says, so we can decide whether we want to tell our congressmen to support it or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 06:41 PM

My dear friend Mike Miller:
I do live in New York City, in downtown New York, and as frequent readers know, I live close enoghf to still be cleaning grey dust out of every corner of my house. This grey dust speaks volumes to me, as my mother is half Roma and half Russian Jewish. The grey ashes of both her father's family and mother's family mixed on Ziguener Nacht in Auschwitz.
I abhore the use of violence to make peace. It is idiotic. As the Jordanian president said, it allows the minority to lead the majority. It makes us no safer, it only feeds an animalistic desire for revenge. It is an abomnination, and when either side targets journalists, as a former combat photographer, I assure you, that the side which does fears the truth being told, because evil deads must be done in the dark of night.
BOTH sides hate each other more than they love their God and the future of humanity. The best of humanity are those like young brother Shapiro, who walked into danger to help the wounded. It is time for humanity to rise up and walk into danger with outstreached hands and demand peace. Peace, only peace, peace with all of us alive, not the peace when humanity destroys itself for insanity.
Larry Otway

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:35 PM

Mike: Don't mind Larry with his "my dear friend" stuff. He's not trying to be sarcastic; he's a Quaker. Everybody is his dear Friend! *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:37 PM

SharonA and others: I'm not really up tp speed with linky type things but for the basics of the proposal you can go to washingtonpost.com and search the archives for the article entitled "Saudi Crown Prince Lays Out Peace Plan", p.A01, March 28, written by Howard Schneider.

Now I'm not too sure if this will work but I'll give it a try anyway:

http:www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28397-2002 Mar27.html

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:39 PM

I do not think that terrorism will automatically stop if Palestine is re-created. I think that a condition of its existence has got to be an essential state of occupation, but this time by neutral parties. But I think it cannot be delayed until the violence stops. It is the right thing to do, although it needs severe checks obviously. Another condition is that Arafat must be retired, gone..kaput. There is no doubt that he is a terrorist. I personally would like to see a non-Arab (I guess I mean non-Muslim) Palestinian, as president/leader/chairwoman, such as the woman spokesperson who is on TV a lot. I think that would diffuse a lot of fears about Muslim extremists etc. I was getting weekly reports from HCCRF??? A Palestinian Christian group..but they have stopped in the last few weeks. They were so sad, especially reports from the children, who live in such terror. I do think that part of the problem is that the Palestinians truly do not understand that they are aggressors in the latest round, granted, within a very sad and debatable context. I wish there were a way to really communicate with them and let them know that peace and statehood are within reach, but that all their demands and desires will never be met. Unjust things have been done to them but there is no real way of undoing them so they will have to adjust...but things can be infinitely better for them if they will just rein in their martyrs/terrorists. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:42 PM

Here's a link to the article Bobert mentioned: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28397-2002Mar27.html

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 07:44 PM

Thanks Sharon: You are in deed right. I am not being at all sarcastic. I am very cognisant of the pain and fear which causes some Jewish folks to equate concern for Palistinians with hatred of Isreal. But we all have to transend both fear and pain. Cheers and best wishes,
Yours in the Light,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:06 PM

Israeli writer, Amos Oz:

I am more angry now, with both leaderships, than I have been for many years. I think Arafat and Sharon are almost handcuffed to one another in the sense of being the slaves of the past, of the traumatized past; lack of trust, lack of good will, lack of vision, lack of imagination, and lack of political courage. In many ways, I regard Sharon and Arafat as birds of a feather.

The two nations are haunted by their pasts. It may be interesting to point out that both Israeli Jew and Palestinian Arab are victims of Europe in two different ways. The Arabs were victimized by Europe through colonialism, imperialism, oppression, and exploitation. The Jews through suppression, discrimination, and finally, mass murder in the Nazi period.

Now, two victims of the same oppressor do not necessarily become brothers. Two children of the same cruel parent do not necessarily hug one another. Sometimes the worst rivalries in private life as well as in communal life are precisely the conflict between two victims of the same oppressor. Two children of the same cruel parent, who look at one another and see in each other the image of the cruel parent, or the image of their past oppressor. This is very much the case between Jew and Arab. It's a conflict between two victims.

In a strange sense, I thought (re: the Sept. 11 attacks), it was a sobering lesson for everybody. If we don't stop somewhere, if we don't accept an unhappy compromise; unhappy for both sides, if we don't learn how to unhappily coexist and contain our burned sense of injustice, if we don't learn how to do that, we end up in a doomsday.

--Excerpt from interview with Elizabeth Farnsworth on The News Hour With Jim Lehrer, April 2, 2002

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:07 PM

Interesting article, Bobert. The comments from the other Arab nations were particularly disturbing:

"President Bashar Assad of Syria said he considers all of Israel an armed camp and argued that Palestinian fighters have no obligation to distinguish between military and civilian targets. 'This intifada has started to make the Israeli people understand. So the more we want peace, the more we will support the intifada.' "

"Representatives of the Iraqi government, led by Izzat Ibrahim, vice chairman of the ruling Revolutionary Command Council, also argued that continued fighting will win concessions from Israel. The Iraqis refrained from endorsing Abdullah's proposal publicly. 'That intifada has given positive results,' said Ibrahim, who stood in for President Saddam Hussein, who has not left his country in more than a decade. 'That is what is going to produce liberation over the enemy.' "

Doesn't sound to me as if they're interested in negotiating a peace settlement. How is Israel supposed to have any confidence in Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah's statement that "if their government gives up the policy of force and suppression and accepts genuine peace, we will not hesitate in accepting the Israeli people's right to live in security with the rest of the people in the region"? I wonder what he considers "genuine peace" to be... and I wonder if the other Arab leaders of the region would agree with him.

Here's a link to excerpts from the Saudi Crown Prince's speech, wherein he spoke about his peace proposal: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A24501-2002Mar27

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM

Yeah.....but Mike........would you PLEASE answer the questions? I am trying to get a handle on your opinion, as well as that of Jack the Lad's, opinion of Sharon's role, as well as Netanyahu. Why do you continually dance around the issues? I ain't askin' for blood.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:16 PM

CarolC,

I too saw the eloquent Israeli writer Amos Oz on tonight's news. I wholeheartedly agree with his assessment that both Israelis and Arabs were victims of European colonialism.

However, I was appalled to hear Amos Oz claim, as I believe he was, that Israel, one of the most powerful military forces in the world, was STILL a victim. This, he claimed was as a result of the violence against Israel by Palestinian militants fighting an occupation that the entire world has condemned repeatedly.

I did however, find myself in agreement with former Speaker George Mitchell's comments in an interview on CNN tonight on the program Moneyline. Perhaps you could get a transcript of his comments, to see the difference I speak of between the two men's comments and perspectives.

Israel is not the victim here, despite the insistence by the Israeli government officials currently flooding our news programs in the US. Have a look at the footage coming from MSNBC's and CNN's correspondents in Ramallah, and imagine the Israeli Defense Forces as victims. No rational person could make that kind of argument in light of the film footage coming out of the West Bank, limited as it is by the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: heric
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 11:41 PM

They certainly are victims. You're saying, I believe, that we needn't feel sympathy because they are not ~helpless~ victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 12:22 AM

Is Mitchell the one who was involved in the negotiations in N. Ireland? If so, I liked what he had to say about the middle east, too. I wish the Israelis and the Palestinians would invite him to help over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 02:38 PM

Mick wants to get a handle of my opinion of Sharon's role. I thought I had made it pretty clear that I revile him. I would like to see the back of him. I don't think that his policy of more force can bring a long term solution- though any bomb and weapon factories destroyed must save some innocent lives . I can't stand Netanyahu either- I think he is a slicker version of Sharon. My opinion of Arafat? (Not asked for) A lying rat who will stop at nothing to achieve total dismemberment of Israel.This occupation is vile and must come to an end- but not by the bombing of women and children in cafes

I am willing to sit down and talk peace with any Palestinians( or rather to have my government doit- including with Arafat( whom I wouldn't trust further than I could throw him) but who the heck am I anyway? Just some guy who would like to be able to take an espresso machiato in my own country without getting blown sky high- which seems to me to be reasonable.

Jack The Lad

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 05:22 PM

Thanks, Jack. That is just exactly what I was after and it lends credibility to your posts. The reason I didn't ask about Arafat is that I assumed the answer and also would rather hear from a Palestinian (who enunciates their opinions as well as you do) what their opinion is of Arafat. Thanks for the answer.

Mike Miller, I am not sure why you refuse to answer this one. I have my opinion of the reason, but for now I will keep that to myself.

If their are other Israeli's or Palestinians that would evaluate the performance of their elected leaders, it would be very interesting to me. My motives are quite simple. I already know the respective pary lines on the conflict. I want to get a feel how well the leaders reflect that. One of the interesting things to me (as a political hack of over a quarter century experience) is the old "Reagan Syndrome". This is the one where I couldn't find anyone who voted for him, but he was reelected with a huge mandate. Trying to get a feel for this.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: musicmick
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:11 AM

Mick, I got so enmeshed in the multiplicity of issues that I never did state my opinion of Sharon and the Likud Party I have never voted for Likud, they represent the "acceptable" right, and I have never found the right to be acceptable. My belief that Israel has evry right to defend herself should not be confused with support of Sharon or of his view of the Palestinians. If there were no war, Sharon would be an undersupported favorite son of the conservatives, who constitute a small minority in Israel. It is important that you appreciate the dichotome that Israeli liberals and leftists live with. Israelis are frightened and wary. In my lifetime, Jews have been slaughtered, expelled, displaced, segregated and hated. The world turned its back on the death camps. The UN turned its back when the state they had, themselves, mandated, was attacked the moment it was formed. The Soviet Union treated its Jews as second class citizens, then ransomed their freedom (the Soviet Union that had been championed by generations of Jewish radicals and trade unionists). Frankly, Mick, if Jews seem cynical and politically hard-nosed, we have reason for our attitude.

But, I am not fatalistic. I believe that, at some point, the arabs will figure out that the Jews aint going away, and the "might makes right" boys on our team will realize that coexistance is the only way to live. But, it's not going to happen without strict control on the fundimentalists. They are the fuse in this powderkeg. Without the threat of suicide attacks, there could be a settlement in a New York minute. In the absence of real security, Israel turns to its hawk, much as England rallied around Churchill in war, then they voted him out pronto.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:40 AM

Part two of this thread can be found HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:23 PM

Saddam Hussein and the regime in Iraq are offering $10,000 per family if they're able to persuade a family to have their teenager strap explosives on them and go out and kill themselves and kill innocent men, women, and children. It turns out that he has raised that amount, and it's $25,000 per family, not $10,000 per family.

Think of it. Here is an individual who is the head of a country, Iraq, who has proudly, publicly made a decision to go out and actively promote and finance human sacrifice for families that will have their youngsters kill innocent men, women, and children. That is an example of what it is we're dealing with.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:39 PM

Yesterday, about a half dozen times or more, I saw film footage of a man, sitting, with a stunned look, on the floor in his living room. On the floor next to him were the bodies of his brother and sister-in-law, in the process of subsiding into shapeless masses. Apparently they'd been there for a few days, and the man didn't have any way to remove them from his house.

I don't think there are any saints on either side of this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:40 PM

I forgot to mention that the man and his brother and sister-in-law were Palesinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:35 PM

Israel's position, in spite of its offensive, is desperate: tanks are helpless against the endless attacks of Palestinian suicide bombers that blow themselves up together with dozens of Israeli civilians. The Palestinians also intend to fight to the end - to form their own independent state and destroy the Israeli state. The rest of the world is vacillating between appeals to Israel "not to employ excessive force" and appeals to the Palestinians "to stop the terror." The world community's sympathies could go either way depending on the outcome of the confrontation between the Israelis and Palestinians in the Holy City of Bethlehem.

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:43 PM

Again, the sequel to this thread is here. This one has 145 threads now, and some people can't view it properly. Thanks. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:45 PM

Oops, threads=posts. Sorry, just refreshed it again, duh. Uh, go HERE for part two. :P

Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 02 - 12:59 AM

Ah G