Violence is the American Way?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:24 AM

wow; *daylia*, your childishness, arrogance and self-deception knows no bounds.

Mick is right; your diarrhetic input to this thread belies your claims that you're too busy.

Poetry? Well, I am actually a published poet. I even won an international award last year from the Cornish Gorseth; first place in the poetry division, in fact. I was even interviewed on BBC radio about it, being the first American to win the division.

I will not waste my time composing badly-rhyming doggerel for you.

I like Thomas, too. I guess it makes you feel better about your sorry self to act like you're his ally or whatever. I am guessing he is horrified by your behavior in this thread, though (maybe mine, too). Especially the juvenile insults. Pathetic. I remember seeing a lot of this kind of behavior in seventh grade.

By the way, those links? I read them a long time ago. I guess that means NOW you'll answer the questions? Since NOW you claim that is the ONLY reason you won't answer them?

Still waiting. You have no excuse now for not answering. Unless, as you have already done, you choose to make up something new so you can stick out your toungue and flounce away once more.

You have turned your own thread into an embarrassing (for you) joke.

You claim you're being attacked; all I did was ask questions, and politely, I might add (as did several others whose questions you have also ignored, demanding they answer yours first huh? YOU started the thread!). You refused. I asked again. And you have continued to refuse, and tried to hide your ignorance, or stubbornness, or whatever it is, in these nasty games of yours in which YOU are the bearer of insults. It doesn't work, you see, for you to accuse me of something when you are far and away the worse offender...

I have been here a while and a lot of 'Catters know I like a good debate, am reasonably articulate in my assertions, and have little patience for homophobia and misogyny. I participate in a lot of music threads, too and have done since the beginning. I am sometimes wrong, sometimes inappropriate, sometimes bitchy, and I tend to admit it when called on it, and to apologize when warranted. Like most adults ought to behave in a forum like this one.

You, in the relatively short time you've been here, are rapidly proving to be a snotty little girl who is irresponsible in her opinions and comments, and with the air of a tattletale who runs and hides under someone else's skirts when things get overwhelming (as when people point out that you're wrong about something). You don't even defend yourself; you just attack others. The silly name calling is rather sad.

Okay, so much for my own self-indulgent input to this thread. I am bored with it now.

Good luck, Big Mick. You've given it the old college try, but *daylia* is still in grade school.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:22 AM

Big Mick, this may be news to an Big important person like yourself, but my daily schedule is absolutely NONE of your business! And while "where I'm coming from" may interest you and Peg, it's completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not "Violence is the American Way?". That IS the purpose of this discussion, and the title of the thread, remember? Is that too difficult for you to understand or what?

Maybe you could start another thread called "The Mysterious and Annoying Ways of daylia" or something, if you find me so intriguing. But that sounds like such trivial and boring topic - even to me! - it's not likely to get much response.

My offer still stands though! Answer my 2 questions satisfactorily -- because that IS the "meat" of this discussion! -- and I'll answer any two of yours, providing they are of equal or lesser value. That's more than fair coming from someone you've verbally abused so many times already on this thread, but I'm a pretty easygoing person most days!

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 10:09 AM

they focus on the attacking the messenger, not the message

Horse pucky. You started the thread, you made the assertions, you refuse to justify your analysis, and you continue to obfuscate. I don't know you, except by your posts. If you were to apply logic to your statement, given the fact I just mentioned, you would know that it is impossible to attack the messenger. I only have your message, and your follow ups, from which to draw conclusions. And the conclusions are obvious.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:51 AM

Right on about the ego thing, LH. I do try to keep mine in check, and that's usually no problem at all, but as you said these controversial discussions tend to bring out the worst in people when the personal attacks start. And that's what often happens when important topics most people would rather ignore or deny - (understandably of course, because the truths in them are so uncomfortable) - are introduced for discussion.

But I disagree with your statement "She wants you to read her links."
The truth is, I don't give even a squished louse off that sticky hair on the nuts of that dried beaver whether she reads them or not! I just refuse to waste my time answering any of her so-called "questions" till she does! Because you're right - the answers to her "questions" are either in the links, or totally irrelevant to the topic at hand because they focus on the attacking the messenger, not the message.

That's the "argumentum ad hominum" tactic I was referring to before.

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:37 AM

daylia......you continue the same line of crap. Here is a clue for you. I will write slow.

I DIDN'T START THE THREAD, YOU DID. I DIDN'T MAKE THE ASSERTIONS, YOU DID.

By continuing your idiotic references to your time being so valuable, while you continually check back in (thus demonstrating that you are dodging) shows that you are over your head. I had hoped that you would get to it. You aren't, as I believe you are incapable.

Back to the other threads,

Mick

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:31 AM

Pretty sound analysis, LH. But as someone who is just reading this with some interest, I would like daylia to answer the questions so we can get to the meat of this thread. I am troubled lately by the gratuitous assertions that are continually made without the benefit of how folks arrived at the positions they espouse. Daylia jumps out with a thread that obviously wasn't thought out before she posted. I have seen her do it before, and when called on it she makes cute little patronizing comments, misdirects the conversation and then skips out. While I agree with your analysis about how this is going, it does not take away from the legitimate questions that were directed at daylia. She made the assertions, she should answer the questions with something more than a couple of cites. I understand where Ira is coming from...............I don't understand where daylia is coming from.

Mick

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:28 AM

Do you need some math help as well then, Big Mick?
Or are you just waving your huge heavy stick?

Tell you what - you give me a decent, thoughtful and well-documented reply to the two important questions I've posed -- twice!! -- above (you'll have to search for them through the posts above yourself though - not gonna waste my precious time doing your homework for ya!), and I'll answer two questions of equal or lesser value for you, *free* of charge even! How's that for a deal?

Oh and here's a little inspiration to get Peg started on a poem (my nose tells me she's still close by!). I love watching people use their own creative potential!   And don't worry about offending me (I'm sure that'll be the first concern of kindly, gentle, easy-going and polite people like Peg!)   I've built up quite a nice callous around my heart-strings on Mudcat, and I do enjoy poking fun, even at myself! Here goes ... add on if you like (you too, Big Mick, of the huge heavy stick!)


Daylia, oh daylia, the poetic faylia
Bin tryin so hard to assault and assaylia!
How dare you discuss the "American Way"
The world's biggest bombs haven't found YOU today!

.... (okay, that's your cue - have fun!)

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:22 AM

No, Peg.

I'm saying you both have an ego problem, as regards this particular thread...

But, what the hell, it happens to all of us on occasion. I cast my mind back to the endless political wrangles between me and teribus/Troll (who I began to suspect were the same person, until I heard that teribus tried to end it all by consuming an overly large serving of "freedom fries"). Then there are the endless head-banging sessions between me and Clinton Hammond whenever any unconventional subject comes up (like UFO's, reincarnation, spirituality, crop circles, acupuncture, whatever...). He hates that stuff. I love it. Some people think I AM Clinton Hammond! Now THAT is funny!!!

I have learned not to let it get to me much anymore. That's the best advice I can give you and daylia. She wants you to read her links. You want her to answer your questions. She thinks the links do answer your questions. You get hostile. She gets sarcastic. And so on...

Sounds like the Israeli-Palestinian thing to me. Endless. Less dangerous though...

Maybe we should get Jimmy Carter in here to negotiate a settlement.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 08:00 AM

Daylia........just answer the questions posed and you end this. Your poetry and all are attempts to dodge. You write much but fail to answer the simple questions which were based on your initial post. You are coming off very poorly to anyone who is not distracted by your elementary dodge tactics, or excuses about the dog eating your homework.

For someone who continually says she is going to work, or doesn't have time, you keep showing back up. That is why this doesn't add up.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:27 AM

Well yeah, it sucks a bit, but the poem was a five-minute effort after 12am, when I was silly-tired. It was fun though!! Here, try this - my new improved version!


My mystic, aromatic Peg!
What nasty little jibes you beg!
I'm sure things will get much clearer
When you take your face out of the mirror!

Do you teach your witches in your coven
How war's the "Peggy-style" of lovin?
Discovered yet (through aromatherapy)
How foul's the bullshit leaking belching out of thee!

Perhaps your brilliant inspiring sour and stinky words
Would impress more the bees and birds!
But thanks so much for all you've said.
I'll laugh my way right back to bed!!


There! I like it better, anyway!

And yeah, Ttr and I have engaged in a bit of mutual admiration re rhymes before, and I find him not nearly as critical or complaining -- or simply as boringly repetitious -- as I find you, Peg. He's a lot more fun - peaceful and loving, too!

So where's your attempt at poetry? Been stifling your creativity with all that bitchiness lately?   Too critical to even try? I bet there's a little bit of poetic potential lurking under all those "Peggy" grunts, snorts and squeals! Should really do something about that aroma though ... it gets pretty disgusting when you let out a good belch!

Oh, and by the way, "Most of my poems are written in haste
And are therefore resultantly lacking in taste.
But those who will read them and think they are fine
Must surely have taste just as rotten as mine!" :)

My poems are free because I enjoy them. But answering your never-ending "questions"? Sorry, my tutorial fees for basic reading, math and analytic skills, which is all it takes to answer any of your "questions" -- (really "attacks", clumsily disguised) -- still apply. $200/hour (American), cash or certified cheque only. First and last 6 hours up front, no refunds returns or exchanges.

And please douse your mail GOOD with some kind of an odour-masker of some kind before you send it to me. Otherwise it might attract dogs, and get eaten before I get it home.

Now that was fun, but I really did want to stay on topic, and there are people up there far more worthy of response than you are, Peg.   Don, pdc, InOBU just to name a few. So I'll go back to ignoring you now. Thanks for the entertainment.

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM

"end" should actually be "tend" in my last post...

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:51 AM

your poem sucks (try taking a lesson or two from Thomas) and you STILL haven't answered my questions...what are you afraid of exactly?

I end to notice that when people "laugh" too loudly or uproariously they are actually terrifed of being ridiculed themselves...there's a little dimestore psychology for ya, *daylia* since you think you know so much about me...you don't though.

I feel sorry for you now. Maybe there's time yet for you to grow up.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM

I think this thread started off on a good topic, but has deteriorated into GWB-type thinking.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:49 AM

*yawn*

My mystic, aromatic Peg!
What nasty little jibes you beg!
I'm sure things will get much clearer
When you take your face out of the mirror!

Do you teach your witches in your coven
How war's the "Peggy-style" of lovin?
Discovered yet (through aromatherapy)
How foul's the bullshit leaking out of thee?

Perhaps your brilliant inspiring words
Would impress more the bees and birds.
But thanks so much for all you've said.
I'm laughing all the way to bed!!

Sweet dreams - daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:53 PM

I am still waiting for those answers to my very simple questions. I asked them respectfully and was insulted. Daylia seems to be able to dish it out but not take it, and tries to makeit seem like anyone who has the temerity to ask her to clarify her position is "out to get her." Her rudeness and condescension continues.

LH: you're telling ME this is an ego problem? That's rich.

Daylia: why aren't you answering anyone's questions?

"You're mean and I don't like you so I have decided to ignore you, nyah nyah" is not an acceptable response, I'm afraid...unless you enjoy looking very foolish. It's very clear by now that you CAN'T answer the questions...because you're terrifed to admit that everyone who has questioned your basic assumptions (which you still have not bothered to clarify) may be right (that your way of presenting those statistics is faulty), and you may be wrong (about your narrow-minded and provincial view of "Americans").

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: mg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:43 PM

glad I don't live in Kansas or I might feel insulted....mg

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:13 PM

LOL! God, sometimes I try to remember how it was that I entertained myself before Mudcat...my window on the World, my endless source of amusement, intrigue, and controversy.

It's a good thing I don't have a full-time job to go to.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 11:12 PM

Ho, hum...muddy logic and statistics...time to leave this thread and go do something more worthwhile....

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:44 PM

SINSULL - forgot to ask why you found the statistics "muddled"? Perhaps you need a tutorial in basic mathematics or reading graphs? A quick google search would probably turn up something appropriate for your levels of ability and understanding - lots of excellent, *free* programs out there. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:31 PM

To Sinsull:

"I thought it it was the fact that US children are taught the Pledge Of Allegiance at the age of five that threatened you the most."

That wasn't Daylia; that was me, and the fact mentioned doesn't threaten me at all. What I said was that learning patriotism by rote can lead to unthinking patriotism, which, like the unexamined life, is not worth much.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM

" Nobody is to too sure what up there, but it's big and it can't really be that exciting or they'd know about it already :)"

Well, Nicole, I've lived and travelled in this very exciting diverse and breathtakingly beautiful, covetously rich and prosperous nation all my life, and it's nothing like Kansas believe me! It's soo exciting around here I don't even need to watch TV! I can't even begin to describe to you how wonderfully exciting it is!!! --- oh well, you've already decided it's a "worthless country" anyway, right? So you're probably too far gone to bother with! ;)

Anyway, it's best to let sleeping Yanks lie -- that's my new "insight" gleaned from this "horrid", "hate speech" of a thread!

(Told ya I'm gettin bleary ...)

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM

"I thought it it was the fact that US children are taught the Pledge Of Allegiance at the age of five that threatened you the most."

SINSULL, I was not even aware of that fact until now! You've got me confused with someone else, perhaps?

" You're the one with a sister running around panic-stricken with a gun while you obsess over statistics you have muddled up in your own posts."

Panic stricken with a gun? I said that my sister, who has lived in Fort Lauderdale Florida (near Miami) for a couple decades now, has "carried a handgun in her purse for a couple years now, seems to think that it's just not safe to leave home without it, that it's just a natural everyday thing to carry a gun for personal safety. Such an attitude - or need - would have been unthinkable to her before she left Canada, as it continues to be for the rest of the family! I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to feel so threatened by violence that you'd "need" to a gun to go to the corner store - and nor would I ever want to!"

The part about "not leaving home without it" is not a "fact" - it's actually a phrase I use to tease her with because she works for American Express - shoulda put in a :) I guess? Sorry bout that!

Carrying a gun on one's person for safety is apparently common practice, in her neck of the woods anyway, and she's certainly not "panic-stricken" about it. It's a "natural behavior" where she lives. Not into "running around" either. I bolded the reason I told the story at all - to point out the changes in attitudes/behavior towards guns and violence she demonstrates after living in Florida for over twenty years - an real-life example from my own family I consider to be quite relevant to the topic being discussed.

"If you fear Americans, stay away from them...us. We won't mind." Even if I did "fear Americans", which I don't -- it's the actions and agenda of your current administration that are cause for concern! -- I couldn't "stay away" from you...any of you...even if I wanted to! Ever looked at a map of North America? Ever noticed how the economies of the US and Canada are linked? Etc, etc.

"And if you don't, I can guarantee that we won't shoot you. Now just how are you going to go about doing that altruistic act, or are you making one of those dangerous sweeping generalizations, speaking for "all Americans" instead of just yourself? Or maybe you're joking??

" Although your sister is fair game if she aims her piece at me." Well I've never seen her "aim her piece" at anyone in my life. I'd risk positing that it's not in her nature, so you certainly have nothing to fear either!

Hmmm, then again I've never even seen her with "her piece" - handguns are illegal in Canada (except for a very small number of people working in security etc).    ;)

Oh, and you're wrong in assuming I "obsess about statistics". I've known about the differences in homicide levels etc. between Canada and the US for many years - I remember seeing statistics like those when I ws in high school in the 70s. Searching to find the most recent ones to post here is being considerate, not obsessive.

As Nicole pointed out, credible statistics are helpful in backing up a theory at times - and they can "stand on their own" as well. For example -- about half of all babies born are male, statistically. That stands on it's own, obviously.

Gettin bleary now ... daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:56 PM

The price would go up! The US already buys the lions share... what would change? There IS a shortage of oil looming, but most folks are blithley ignoring it.

The logistical issues of invading Canada and seizing the territory are HUGE. D-Day would look like a high school project. If there were an international shortage of oil, Canada would be running low, too, not only making it a less savory target, but it would make the large expeditures of petroleum required for a military action of that scale pointless for the potential return.

I'm not saying it's not possible some (other) wacky crackpot would get in office and think it was fun to lob a few missiles at Canada. Hey, Canada has missiles -- some crackpot there could launch one at us, too. But invasion? Successful military occupation of the vast area of Canadian petroleum reserves? Do you know how big an army that would take? It's not like we can grab the stuff and bring it home with us. Uh uh.

To most Americans, I think, the idea of attacking Canada is like attacking... Kansas. Nobody is to too sure what up there, but it's big and it can't really be that exciting or they'd know about it already :)

I'm not a sociologist, I just play one on TV.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:32 PM

A burning question, indeed!


A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:20 PM

Hey, NicoleC:

I believe, based on your questions, that you are a sociologist! (I'm married to one.)

You said: "If Canada declared tomorrow that they would no longer sell petroleum products to the US at any price, it would be viewed as a hostile act. In that case, I suspect Canada would have a lot to fear. As long as Canada's desire to make money by selling resources to the US coincides neatly with the US's desire to buy resources and resell them at a profit... I don't see an issue."

Correct. But what if there was an international shortage of oil?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:34 PM

Fair enough, people crack under pressure of circumstances and don't live up to their principles, but that's not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is when you pretend you are holding to your principles, when in fact you are going directly against them.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:55 PM

Hey, well, no one likes being singled out, do they?

No wonder this thread has garnered so much passionate response.

As for "Christian values", I agree that turning the other cheek is supposed to be a Christian value...according the Christ...but it depends which Christians you talk to as to whether it is. In most cases...hardly!

You will find similar inconsistencies in Musilim values, depending on whether you talk to Sunnis, Shiites or Wahabbis, and depending of course on the individuals you talk to, as well.

Then there's also the fact that people frequently alter their usual declared moral stand on things when subjected to certain unexpected crises or pressures. They will then be accused of being hypocrites...which is arguable...but what they really are is something more prosaic than that: they are just human, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 06:37 PM

It seems to me there is an in-your-face style of hyper self-assertion around these days.

I don't mean particularly American, I don't know enough about America to say that, and in any case I don't think it makes sense going in for generalisations about a continent-wide conglomeration of communities which vary a great deal. I wouldn't even make those kind of generalisations about the neighbourhood in which I live. (Which is a long way from America.)

But I run into it constantly - it shows itself in the way people drive, in the way they deal with any kind of delay, when shopping for example. And in the way they respond to any kind of perceived challenge. And it comes up here on the Mudcat often enough.

I've noticed that these days every time people in the media or in politics refer to the concept of turning the other cheek, it seems to be accompanied by an implied or a direct sneer. And yet the same speakers writers and politicians often would very likely claim some kind of adherence to "Christian values" - and you can't have a more core Christian value than turning the other cheek, at least as something to aspire to.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:55 PM

The day's busy-ness calls me elsewhere right now, but I just have a comment or two.

To pdc, I would say first that, to all intents and purposes, you will probably be just as safe in the United States as you are where you are right now. I've already discussed the matter of films and other entertainment. But in newspapers and magazines—and on the evening television news—the current principle seems to be "if it bleeds, it leads." If a violent crime tops the news, people pay attention, not out of a pathological fascination with violence, but with a reasonable regard for their own safety; wanting to know what happened so they can avoid the same thing happening to them. Inspired fear rather than a taste for blood. And in any city of any size anywhere in the world, violence occurs almost every day. Finding a lead-off story is easy pickings for the news vultures, creating the impression that things of this sort are far more prevalent and wide-spread than they really are. This same attitude slops over into magazine articles as well (Cover article: "How to Keep From Being Mugged"). There are millions of random—and not so random—acts of kindness that happen every day, but they are so commonplace that they're not newsworthy. In a class I took on broadcast news, and later on while working in a radio news department, I got a pretty good picture of what most radio and television stations think of as "newsworthy." (You want to draw the viewers/listeners in so they'll hear your commercials between news items rather than some other station's.) "Statistically skewed" hardly describes it. Rather than becoming the victim of intentional violence, you'd probably have a greater chance of being run down by some dodo in an SUV with a cell-phone up his ear. Now, there's a real danger!

And, daylia, I too wonder why the statistics for violence are higher in the U. S. than in many other countries. I'm working on a theory, but I haven't had a chance to work it out yet. It has to do with a couple of factors, which do, indeed, seem to be cultural: an inordinate emphasis on competitiveness that sometimes starts as early as pre-school and continues (obviously) into a person's work-life, where it can get downright cut-throat (speaking of violence); and despite the supposed guarantees of equality, the obvious examples one hears of and encounters every day that "some people are more equal than others." One common example is the fellow who thought he had a secure job for life and then he gets laid off because some CEO he has never even heard of in a company that owns the company he worked for is in a competitive struggle with another company. Anger and frustration caused by things over which one has no control can lead to violence—sometimes misdirected violence, such as domestic abuse, for example.

Blazes! I've got to get busy! It seems I started to work on my theory right here. Sometimes I don't know what I think until I say it!

I'll be back.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:39 PM

The problem with your observation, MGOH, is that it implies that the people, myself included, who argued against daylia's propositions, express or implied, vague or certain, whatever they may have been (I no longer can tell), are reacting defensively ("getting their hackles up.") It doesn't account for those people who find the assertions and implications offensive and unfair in and of themselves.

Enough said. I got caught up in it, true. But I now see the futility of any continuation.

If someone says something about [a third party] which is critical, and they are saying what they sincerely think is the truth, either it's accurate, or it isn't.

If it's accurate, fair enough. If it isn't, it isn't really about [that third party] at all. So it might be worth correcting the mistake, and it might be worth trying to find out why the wrong impression got out - but it's never worth getting upset about it.

If it's demeaning, offensive, and about a large group of people based upon some classification, it's hate speech.

(To see my point, Kevin, just re-read everything substituting the word "Palestinian" for "American," and I think you can see whey I might lose my cool, calm calculated demeanor ever so briefly.)


Dan

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:36 PM

From daylia: "This is the part that threatens me the most..."
I thought it it was the fact that US children are taught the Pledge Of Allegiance at the age of five that threatened you the most.

You're the one with a sister running around panic-stricken with a gun while you obsess over statistics you have muddled up in your own posts. If you fear Americans, stay away from them...us. We won't mind. And if you don't, I can guarantee that we won't shoot you. Although your sister is fair game if she aims her piece at me.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:21 PM

If someone says something about you which is critical, and they are saying what they sincerely think is the truth, either it's accurate, or it isn't.

If it's accurate, fair enough. If it isn't, it isn't really about you at all. So it might be worth correcting the mistake, and it might be worth trying to find out why the wrong impression got out - but it's never worth getting upset about it.

It's the same with a country.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM

"It is very difficult to separate "America" or any other country into its components, however two components -- the national America, represented by government, and the cultural America, represented by films, magazines, television and other media etc. both display violence, in one form or another. Therefore, to be fair, people have a problem in distinguishing individual Americans from the national and cultural identities."

Bingo, pdc. This is the point I was trying to make back at the start. Choosing archetypes of American life and attempting label them as accurate representations of America as a whole bases an assumption of society on a stereotype, without questioning if that stereotype is correct.

While statistics may be used to reinforce an arguement, they simply can't hold it up on their own.

You have to question who collected the statistics -- was it from police reports, or from the court system? The former might call something a murder, while the court might call it self-defense. Are the result sets being compared being gleaned from the same data set?

Are law enforcement authorities equally effectively at finding and classifying crimes?

Are the legislative definitions of the crimes being tallied the same in the various locations?

Are crimes being reported in multiple places? For example, could a domestic violence crime that results in murder appears in both sets of data in one location, but not in another?

How efficient is the gathering of information -- is it at an equal level for all countries being cited?

What happens when the data is tallied by religion, ethinicity, gender, economic status, etc.? Does the data still show a meaningful correlation at the national level?

Are crimes being accurately reported by victims? Just as rape is notoriously underreported in the US because of latent shame and the habit of blaming the victim, reported levels are still dramatically higher than in many other places like India and the Middle East.

And so forth.

HuwG -- Thanks for the synposis. I think that that theory falls apart over one cruicial aspect: the US has never been shy about BUYING what they want or need, and cost is never an issue since it's passed on to the consumers. Even if Canada were the last place on Earth with petroleum reserves, the US would be perfectly happy if those resources could be bought on the open market. If any pressure were applied, it would be muscle non-US interests out of the set of potential buyers.

Wars are almost always fought over access to resources. Even the quintessential freedom fighters want the freedom to use their resources in they way that they see fit, whether it be primary resources like food or secondary products like money. Historically, this means physical control of the land. Today, in most of the industrialized world (Israel being the most notable exception), physical control of land isn't the issue anymore. When multinational corporations that change their citizenship at whim, and transportation is widely available and cheap, which COUNTRY the resources are actually IN is irrelevant. Instead, wars are fought over economic access to resources. For example, the US doesn't want Iraq at the 51st state -- the US wants economic access to Iraq's resources, namely oil.

If Canada declared tomorrow that they would no longer sell petroleum products to the US at any price, it would be viewed as a hostile act. In that case, I suspect Canada would have a lot to fear. As long as Canada's desire to make money by selling resources to the US coincides neatly with the US's desire to buy resources and resell them at a profit... I don't see an issue. It's far smarter to make Canada pay to protect our northern border by simply being there than to attempt to patrol the whole long thing with US military forces.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM

"Millions of Americans are morally and ethically opposed to violence in any of its forms or under any circumstances. To lump these people together with wife-beaters and the child-abusers and the relatively tiny percentage of those who commit acts of greater violence ... is simply inaccurate—and patently unfair." I agree entirely.

"(even though their ratio to the rest of the population may be higher than in some other countries) This is the core of Ira's article, and the reason I started the thread. The importance of knowing why this is so in the world's mightiest superpower becomes more vital every day. I agree that making sweeping generalizations and attaching labels is dangerous, but can the all of the tenets of Ira's argument be safely dismissed on that basis?

Believe me, I am giving your posts thoughtful consideration, Don. Thanks so much again for the hints re fallacious reasoning, and for the information re "argumentum ad hominem" you posted on another thread a while back. That has proved most valuable here!

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

To Don Firth:

I believe that your thoughtful statement is quite correct -- no "but."

It is very difficult to separate "America" or any other country into its components, however two components -- the national America, represented by government, and the cultural America, represented by films, magazines, television and other media etc. both display violence, in one form or another. Therefore, to be fair, people have a problem in distinguishing individual Americans from the national and cultural identities.

It's funny -- nearly all our friends in the city where we live are expatriate Americans, and we discuss the current US administration quite a bit, as you can imagine. They are reasoning, intelligent people who present thoughtful perspectives. Yet -- and this is an indication of how my previous paragraph applies -- we will be moving to the US in about six months for a temporary stay, and all I can think of is the violence shown in films, discussed in newspapers and magazines, and displayed by the present government. Logically and rationally, I recognize that our stay in the US will probably be delightful. But on a gut level, I am very apprehensive.

Do these comments help you to understand how and why outsiders feel the way this thread indicates about the US?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

Attaching a label to an entire nation can give a distorted and inaccurate picture of the populace of that nation, as I've noted above. And it can be a very dangerous thing. This is why I object to the idea of piling up statistics and using them to try to come to the conclusion that "violence is the American way." Or that tap-dancing and playing basketball is the African-American way. Or that eating pasta and singing opera is the Italian way. Or that being compulsively precise, clicking one's heels, and invading Poland is the German way. Or that wearing a serape and sombrero and taking a siesta while leaning against a cactus is the Mexican way. Or that saying "eh?" at the end of every sentence is the Canadian way. Or that . . . you get my point.

No matter how justified they may feel (or for that matter, be) in their grievances against the government of the United States, Osama bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and those of this ilk have stated their assumption that since America is a democracy, the American government is truly representative of the American people. ALL of the American people. Each individual. Therefore, each and every American citizen, they maintain, is to blame for the excesses of the American government. Thus, in their own minds, they justify the indiscriminate slaughter of American citizens by acts of mass terrorism.

This kind of short-sighted, pigeon-hole thinking simply dismisses as irrelevant the millions of people who campaigned against and voted against and demonstrated (and continue to hold vigils and demonstrations and are actively campaigning for the 2004 elections) against the government and its war-like policies. And further, it doesn't take into consideration the questionable nature of the last election, and the fact that the current president did not actually win the popular vote, but got in by having members of his party cobble the ballot-box (something that should be very carefully scrutinized and guarded against in the forthcoming 2004 election).

The same short-sighted, pigeon-hole thinking that might allow one to try to label as "violent" all Americans does not take into consideration the millions of Americans who lead peaceful, productive lives and never commit acts of violence, not ever a swat on the behind of a misbehaving child. Millions of Americans are morally and ethically opposed to violence in any of its forms or under any circumstances. To lump these people together with wife-beaters and the child-abusers and the relatively tiny percentage of those who commit acts of greater violence (even though their ratio to the rest of the population may be higher than in some other countries) is simply inaccurate—and patently unfair.

Okay, the way to demonstrate obviously faulty thinking is to apply the logical argument of reductio ad absurdum*:

Proposition 1: Germans citizens are to blame for Hitler (after all, they elected him, right? Right!)
Proposition 2: Many German citizens were Jewish (true, until Hitler declared them not to be).
Conclusion: The Jews are to blame for Hitler.

Such is the illogic—and the danger—of slapping the single label on an entire nation of people.

Respectfully submitted for your serious and thoughtful consideration.

Don Firth

*The Latin phrase reductio ad absurdum means "reduction to the absurd." It is used to refer to the process of demonstrating that an idea is false by first assuming its truth, and then showing how that truth leads to absurd conclusions which cannot possibly be true. The process is also used in ethical philosophy by assuming the moral validity of some principle, and then showing that acceptance of it would lead to very unethical consequences.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

" I'm wondering, did you ignore any on this list for personal attack, bullying or shooting the messenger??" Yup - you, for one ... ie. "You started a thread with the half baked [note the rude, personal attack] notion that you could statistically prove that American citizens have bloodlust in their hearts and souls, and wish violence upon each other and upon outsiders." Also note that these are your words, not mine. And you're wrong in you're assumption about my reasons for starting this thread, heric.

That's the problem with making assumptions about the thoughts and feelings of others.

And these are also your words, not mine or Little Hawk's - " The recent arguments by LH and daylia that this just a battle of egos and should be left to slide in silent acquiescence because it reflects thoughts lurking in hearts of many Canadians (and imparted to their children) is without merit." You're also wrong in that assumption, heric.

So. "I have been rude and wrong on many an occassion, myself. I own up to it, though." Good for you, heric! Now's you're chance to practice!

"According to Ira's supporting reference, the answer is gun laws, not ideological violence." I agree, but add that gun laws are a part of, and not the entire problem. "Ideological violence", (and I use the words at the risk of assuming I know what you mean by them), plays another significant part.

Thanks for the hints re using Word, Kevin. Using computers well takes lots of practice too. And you're absolutely right about re-reading posts and catching unintentional insults - thanks for that too!

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

Instances of the U.S. dropping bombs since World War II - Compiled by William Blum:

China 1945-46
Korea 1950-53
China 1950-53
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-60
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1984
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991-99
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Iraq 2003

None of these bombings have led to a "democratic" government even though this was more often than not the reason given for the aggression. It won't happen in Iraq, either.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:16 PM

My gracious, Larry! Your religion does not impart a kindly view of the human condition and its potential! I think I haver gained an understanding of how a peace-loving spiritualist as yourself may have gotten into a bit of fisticuff engagements now and then!


THEN rather than now! I have grown up a lot... CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:52 PM

>>>>>As to answering "questions" - I make it a point to ignore those who try to bully or boss others around, discredit another's claims through personal attack, or distract people from the topic at hand by focussing on the messenger, not the message. . . . I hope I haven't left anyone out, . . <<<<<

Well, you left out me, artbrooks, Art Theime, Rick Fielding, Alba and Cluin, among others, I'm sure. This is understandable, of course, timewise, but I'm wondering, did you ignore any on this list for personal attack, bullying or shooting the messenger??

>>>When people have neither the appreciation or the interest to even bother reading through the information I provide or the article I started this thread to discuss, and "order" me to do their reading and thinking for them - well, if that's not worthy of inattention, what is? And when they choose to ignore, overlook, or pooh-poooh the most credible and relevant figures available, well that just lends even more credibility to the tenets of the article "Violence is the American Way".<<<

Did anyone on the above list fail to read your cites or order you to do their thinking for them?

>> That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems?" Could it be that in order to answer them a big ugly truth must be acknowleged? I suspect this is another example of Ira's "mutual causation".<<<<

I said it before and you can ignore me again. According to Ira's supporting reference, the answer is gun laws, not ideological violence.

>> and when they choose to ignore, overlook, or pooh-poooh the most credible and relevant figures available, well that just lends even more credibility to the tenets of the article "Violence is the American Way".<<<

Yes, this is a repeat, but listen to yourself. You started a thread with the half baked notion that you could statistically prove that American citizens have bloodlust in their hearts and souls, and wish violence upon each other and upon outsiders.

>>As they say, one should never insult anyone by accident. << - MGOH

The recent arguments by LH and daylia that this just a battle of egos and should be left to slide in silent acquiescence because it reflects thoughts lurking in hearts of many Canadians (and imparted to their children) is without merit. I have been rude and wrong on many an occassion, myself. I own up to it, though.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM

Losing long detailed posts like that is a real drag. Much the best thing to do is write them in Word or equivalent - I find if I do that am much less likely to accidentally lose it, and it's easy to save as I go along, so it doesn't matter if I do press the wrong button.

And it's also a lot easier to leave it on one side and post it later, and sometimes that's a way of avoiding misunderstandings, because they can leap out at me when I read something through again after a break. As they say, one should never insult anyone by accident.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM

I just lost an entire post it took over an hour and a half to write, in which I tried to thoughtfully respond to all of you. I've no time to re-write the thing now, but I will say these things ...

Thank you so much Don - and Amos - for your comments. Yes it's good to remember all the altruism and compassion Americans have and continue to display. You are "stereotyped" for your big hearts as well as for the less admirable qualities!

As to answering "questions" - I make it a point to ignore those who try to bully or boss others around, discredit another's claims through personal attack, or distract people from the topic at hand by focussing on the messenger, not the message.

I took up a lot of my - yes, very valuable! - time and energy searching for and posting the most reliable statistics available on the net - from the US Bureau of Justice, the UK Census, Statistics Canada. Even quoted the most relevant figures, showing the math I did in the process, to make it quick and easy for anyone truly interested to access and understand the information. When people have neither the appreciation or the interest to even bother reading through the information I provide or the article I started this thread to discuss, and "order" me to do their reading and thinking for them - well, if that's not worthy of inattention, what is? And when they choose to ignore, overlook, or pooh-poooh the most credible and relevant figures available, well that just lends even more credibility to the tenets of the article "Violence is the American Way".

Peg - I think everyone else reading this thread saw Spaw's first post, and the ;) I added to my joke with Doug. Too bad you're feeling so "picked on".

And speaking of questions, I wonder why no-one has answered the questions I posted earlier on -- "Yet such facts as these still remain - that the US spends five times as much as any other nation on it's military ($399 billion last year, as compared with the $80 billion of the second highest nation, and Canada's lowly $7.9 billion according to a list pdc posted on another recent thread). Although it seems obvious, just why is this if war is not the expected and historically accepted "American Way" of dealing with international conflict?

- That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems?" Could it be that in order to answer them a big ugly truth must be acknowleged? I suspect this is another example of Ira's "mutual causation".

LH thanks for your comments re the rising tide of apprehension and resentment of the current US gov't in Canada right now. I've been dealing with it quite often in the children I teach - just yesterday a 9yr old needed to interrupt his lesson to tell me how much he despises George Bush and his "stupid, stupid war." I've been hearing anti-American grumbles from the parents at my performance classes when the kids announce they are playing American folk-songs, like "Home On The Range". Never heard anything like that before in my over two decades of teaching music! I tried to counter it after the kids finished playing, by thanking the Americans out loud for all the wonderful music - and other things! - they HAVE given the world. THe parents got the message, and so did the kids I think.

Rustic, Metchosin, InOBU, MAG, HuwG - thank you ALL for your stories and comments. I hope I haven't left anyone out, but this just took me another hour to write - and I'm late for work! I had some really nice quotes from Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, Martin Luther King Jr., Henry David Thoreau, and Starhawk (a few of my favorite Americans!) which I lost on my other post too   :(   oh well.

I intend to go over all of your comments again tonight --- thanks so much again.

Peace - daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM

LH: I don't see where anyone has attempted to prove that daylia is wrong. The arguments all seem to have been that she cannot be proven right.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:22 PM

Maybe it's time someone brought out the irony font...

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM

Peg, you are letting your ego lead you astray. I know daylia, and she is not the unfair-minded monster that you seem to be intent on labelling her as for launching this thread. She's a perfectly reasonable and idealistic person of good intentions. And she's smart.

I also find it odd that her occasional attempts to inject a little leavening humour (as in her suggestion to Doug to "shoot you"...obviously a joke) are being misinterpreted on an entirely mean-minded and reactionary level, just because you have already decided that daylia is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

My advice is, lighten up, agree to disagree, and give it a rest. The World will not be improved by a huge battle of egos on this forum that proves (to some) that daylia is "wrong".

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM

>>I find it rather funny that this rapacious and violent people need to tell the world that they are warm and fuzzy. They committ their incipid culture (disney) as often as they committ their violent culture on the world because THESE violent concourers have an adorable need to be loved after they rape you.<<

My gracious, Larry! Your religion does not impart a kindly view of the human condition and its potential! I think I haver gained an understanding of how a peace-loving spiritualist as yourself may have gotten into a bit of fisticuff engagements now and then!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:07 AM

Ebbie, Little Hawk, NicoleC and anyone else who has speculated on the threat posed to Canada by the US:

Some seven or eight years ago, the TV channel "Channel 4" in the UK, proposed in a documentary on the EEC, a situation in which a war could erupt between the US and the European Community, with Canada as the battlefield, in or about 2030. The events leading up to this were:

The world is short of oil;
The US has elected a ranting populist (I think they called him "Diaz") as President;
The EEC leaders are all corrupt oligarchs;
Vast amounts of oil are miraculously discovered on the continental shelf off Labrador and Quebec;
Quebec cannot agree with Ottawa over the division of the spoils (among other things) and breaks away from Canada;
The US twists Canada's arm to be allowed to extract the oil, and threatens Quebec with force if it too does not allow the US to grab all it wants;
The EEC twists Quebec's arm to be allowed to extract the oil, and threatens the US with force if it violates Quebec's sovereignty;
The US issues an ultimatum to get of Quebec, to the EEC;
At the last minute, the British EEC Commissioner resigns over some scandal involving graft and corruption, leaving the Commission inquorate, so it cannot reply to the US ultimatum;

Zap, pow, wallop!

How ridiculous or far-fetched any of the above premises are or might be, is entirely up to you. However, I think the documentary suffered somewhat from its own thread drift; it was only supposed to discuss the delegation of Health and Safety regulation from Parliament in Whitehall to the EEC Commission in Brussels as a result of Britain signing the Maastricht treaty.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM

True McGrath, but if we take 70 percent of the worlds recourses, using our culture as a crow bar, maybe we can take, say 55 percent of the blame?
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 08:33 AM

The culture of violence is the enemy, wherever it crops up. Since the USA is so dominent in the world, in "culture" as well as economics, the violent aspects of that society are up in the forefront of people's attention, and the possibility of people aspiring to adopt American ways adopting those ways is especially frightening.

But I think it's a cul-de-sac to get into fingerpointing battles about whether the violence is peculiarly American, or whether - as I'd be inclined to see it - the real problem is the impact of certain types of economic organisation and technology, and maybe it's hit America first to some extent.

Whichever way people jump as regards that particular issue, it is pretty clear that, as Amos points out, that this is not the only "American Way". Much better to try to imagine what can be done about the culture of violence we are up against.

It's a bit like arguing whether AIDS started in Africa or America or wherever. Epidemiologically very interesting, but not the main issue.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 07:55 AM

Back in the seventies, when my wife and I lived in west Kerry, near Dingle, there was a little crime in Dublin, but out in the west, if you left the house, for a week, you left the door open for your neighbors. Back then there was one TV channel, no movie theater for about 30 miles, then along came American culture through the TV and movies. Where there was NO drug problem, there now is drugs and crime. I find it rather funny that this rapacious and violent people need to tell the world that they are warm and fuzzy. They committ their incipid culture (disney) as often as they committ their violent culture on the world because THESE violent concourers have an adorable need to be loved after they rape you.
I am in negotiations to do an album with a group of musicians from Bangladesh, about the loss of the voices of our grandparents.
Cheers
Larry