Violence is the American Way?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM

daylia; you STILL have not answered my questions. I don't want to click on your links, I want you to explain your logic.

What does the US' military budget have to do with the violent behavior of its citizens?
What does suicide have to do with violence?

What point are you trying to make comparing the USA with "third world countries"?

How are you in any position to declare what the "majority" of Americans *think* with regard to the principles stated by the "Project for a New American Century"?


I also think your use of statistics is rather skewed. Domestic abuse in Russia is far higher than it is in the USA; clearly linked to the extremely high rates of alcoholism...why aren't you complaining about how violent the Russians are?

I seriously question that figure on emergency room visits...as far as domestic abuse victims making up greater numbers in emergency rooms than rapes, muggings and auto adccidents combined; where does this figure come from?

What is the National Women's Study? Never heard of it. How do they calculate their figures on rape victims?

I am not about to claim that America does not have a problem with violence (so please hold your snide "mutual causation" comments at bay, if you don't mind) but I would really prefer it if you'd actually offer some evidence that made some sense and showed some awareness of the statistics on violence in OTHER parts of the world.

What are the rape statistics for sub-Saharan Africa, for instance?

What are the spousal abuse figures in Scandinavia?

How many teenagers commit suicide in Japan each year? and is that figure connected to "violence"?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:53 AM

Oh no, guys... Japanese porno is just too too cute and cartoony, isnt it?

And I thought "Scooby Doo" and "Bullwinkle" were a bit twisted...

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM

daylia, I believe that those statistics do not reflect only forcible rape. Statutory rape is included, and of course those incidents swell the figures. A minor girl, whether 14 or 17 depending on which US state she is in, who has sex with an older male is the victim of rape, because the law considers her incapable of informed consent.

I guess I'm way behind the times- I thought statistics say that one woman of every eight has been raped.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:45 AM

Oh, yes, refresh, by all means, refresh !!! Now we can all be as nauseated by the self-serving polemics in this thread as I am.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Peg:

"Plenty of people live in Florida who DON'T carry handguns on their person every day...gee, maybe she found it a normal thing to do because of all the gun ownership in Canada???"

When friends of mine went on a 1-year sabbatical to the southern US two years ago, they couldn't believe the signs in store windows that said "please leave handguns outside," or "please check your handguns at the counter."

Gun ownership in Canada must be distinguished from gun ownership in the US, by type. 2/3 of Canada is wilderness -- Canadians hunt with rifles. Canada has extremely rigid rules about handguns -- and there are no legally-owned semi-automatic machine guns or assault weapons that are privately owned: they are illegal. What are those weapons for, anyway -- hunting deer? What would you hunt with those besides people?

Posted by McGrath of Harlow:

"Bit unfair to take that as an indication of a national American tendency towards violence. Those are British rockets and bombs, being used against Americans."

You are absolutely correct -- I should have made my reference clearer. I was not referring to whose rockets and bombs they were, but to the fact that some of the words to the US national anthem refer to them. I find it odd that an "anthem" which is a hymn of praise, in this case to a country, should make reference to war.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:14 AM

Amos-Most figures I've heard are that one woman in three is raped at some point in their life. Many of them never report it, so I'm not at all be surprised that your friends didn't tell you-they might not even admit it to themselves. As far as socio-economic distribution goes, I think you'll find (though this is just a hunch) that domestic violence is much less dependent on class than any other kind of crime.

Little Hawk-I'm more disturbed by the extremely prevalent Japanese Lolita complex than any other of their sexual fetishes. S&M is alright between two consenting adults, but pedophilia is another matter entirely.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:10 AM

A nation of lovers, Doug? Sheesh, why oh WHY did I listen to my darn university profs and all their malarcky? I've probably missed out on such a good thing for so looooong now ...

;) daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 12:01 AM

Hell, LH, I can't understand why anyone wants to live in Toronto. I did it for a short while and couldn't wait to get the hell out. Nothing to do with violence... I was just sick of pavement, money-greed, and being looked at strangely for saying "Hi" to anyone.

By the way, and by way of contrast, the vast majority of Americans, I believe, would say "Hi" backatcha.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:54 PM

As far as outward violence goes, I don't find Americans to be much inclined toward it, but it depends a bit on which neighborhood you're in (as indicated by Inobu's post). Beats me how anyone can stand living in some of those downtown cores like in New York or L.A. or Washington...I guess they're used to it.

Regarding that woman in South Africa who gets raped every 1.5 minutes...that is just terrible! She should be given round-the-clock protection starting right now! (joke, okay?)

Amos - Actually, I think a surprising number of women have been raped or assaulted at some point in their childhood or youth or later than that. You just don't hear about it. A fair number of boys get abused too, usually by relatives (or clergy or someone else with a close connection). You don't tend to hear about that either. I recently discovered that two longtime male friends had such experiences as children, and I never would have suspected it.

The main thing that I find odd about the USA in regards to this issue is the behaviour of its government...and of its entertainment media. I might mention, however, that the Japanese, who have a very orderly society, are also saturated with unbelievably violent and sadistic pornography which is readily available and apparently very popular (with the Japanese male). It's weird, and it indicates some very big skeletons in the closet for Japan. It makes North America look positively healthy in comparison.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:52 PM

Oh daylia, you are so wrong! Or at least the article is! We are a nation of lovers, not fighters!

DougR

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:49 PM

I obviously didn't invent the statistics. Amos - they're not "mine". If you do a search you'll find the very same figures from a wide variety of national and international sources. If you don't want to look at the facts I've presented here, then don't - I certainly understand why.

Ira M Leonard, the author of the article "Violence is the American Way" has been a professor of history at Southern Connecticut State University for over 30 years - I'm sure she's neither a dummy nor a disgruntled non-American! And her views are almost exactly the same as those of the Canadian historians and sociologists whose works I've studied, which is why I found the article intriguing. And I'm sure she's not unique in the American scholarly community - she quotes two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Richard Hofstadter in the article as saying: "What is impressive to one who begins to learn about American violence is its extraordinary frequency, its sheer commonplaceness in our history, its persistence into very recent and contemporary times, and its rather abrupt contrast with our pretensions to singular national virtue."

Perhaps the real problem is, as Ira Leonard says "with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality – which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation."

I'm certainly seeing a bit of that right here, right now.

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:37 PM

While I believe that the U.S. may be portrayed as quite violent in the (American-for-the-most-part) media, it is not my experience that Americans are truly so. Quite the opposite, actually.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:55 PM

Geeze, daylia, I'm not arguing with your staistics, but they sure don't match up with my experience. I have been friends with probably hundreds of women in my life, and I can count the number who have been raped on the fingers of one hand, I believe. Do you have any idea how many men and women get through their days in this country with out any rape?

I would suggest that it is possible these crimes should be measured against economic and educational levels around the world, and the general bulge of the bell curve would be hung on the astonishing datum that violence -- rape, brawling, battery and what have you -- are predominantly the resort of the under-educated, the dispossessed, and the oppressed, by a large majority. Slicing the statistics by nationality is a self-fulfilling sort of approach -- it assumes that the nations define the distribution.   Maybe the socialist structures of Canada and the Scandinavian countries do make ordinary life less oppressive, such as by providing national health care, and maybe we do have something to learn. But this out of hand condemnation is not, to my mind, very accurate or contributive to improvement, if I may say so.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM

Peg, Click here for relevant stats re gun ownership, homicide, suicide etc. A quick google search turns up a plethora of sources for the same information.

And here's some international statistics re domestic violence Kevin. The brief article claims that "According to the former Surgeon General Koop, 3-4 million women in the US are beaten by their partners each year. Studies on prevalence suggest that from 1/5 to 1/3 of all women will be physically assaulted by a partner or ex-partner during their lifetime.

Battering is the single greatest cause of injury among women in the US, accounting for more emergency room visits than auto accidents, muggings, and rapes combined...

683,000 women are raped each year in the US according to the National Women's Study. This translates to 1 every 3 minutes, 78 per hour, 1,871 per day."

In comparison, in South Africa a woman is raped every 1.5 minutes. UK and Canadian figures are not mentioned in the article.

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:09 PM

Not scared, heric? Ha! I'm duckin too, harvey ...

After that blast from Dubya - thanks LH - that was hilarious! :) - I'm getting out the old DUCT-TAPE'n stuff- for the computer screen!!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 09:08 PM

"...the rocket's red glare; the bombs bursting in air..."

Bit unfair to take that as an indication of a national American tendency towards violence. Those are British rockets and bombs, being used against Americans.

Pedantic point: the United Kingdom in not a federation - otherwise there would be a separate English Parliament and government, which there isn't. True enough, if Scotland voted for independence they'd get it without any hassles (probably) - things have moved on a bit since Ireland voted for independence after the Great War. On the other hand, I think it likely that, if Texas wanted to leave the Union, it would have the same kind of problems it had the last time it wanted to do that.

It seems to me that, if America is more publicly violent in some ways, that could be a reflection of a kind of populism which is related to democracy. The death penalty is a case in point. Most civilised countries look askance at America's love affair with it, but if they put it to the vote in England it'd probably get voted for by a majority, and that'd apply in a lot of places. (Not everywhere - when there was a referendum on whether to have the death penalty outlawed in the Irish Constitution, there was a clear vote in favour of doing precisely that.)

The popularity of violent films, and so forth, indicates that the rest of us are pretty obsessed with that kind of thing. But having the violence take place in America, or in other fantasy countries such as China, perhaps helps keep it a fantasy separate from reality.

I've never heard that domestic violence is any worse in America than in other countries. I think that would be the key indicator.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:59 PM

It seems to me you are continuing to make spurious assumptions and what's more are actually usig some very questionable reasoning to defend your claims.

daylia wrote:

Yet such facts as these still remain - that the US spends five times as much as any other nation on it's military ($399 billion last year, as compared with the $80 billion of the second highest nation, and Canada's lowly $7.9 billion according to a list pdc posted on another recent thread). Although it seems obvious, just why is this if war is not the expected and historically accepted "American Way" of dealing with international conflict?
&&--what on earth does the USA military budget have to do with your original assessment, which was that American CITIZENS are violent in their behavior??? Explain your logic please. Even you ought to know a governemnt's actions are in no way definitely representative of the desires and beliefs of its citizens.



- That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems?
&&--how is suicide related to violence? This is related to depression and inability to cope with one's life. Another faulty bit of logic on your part.


- That the homicide rates in major US cities are at third-world, rather than first-world levels;
&&--what is the implicatin here? That we are just as violent as "third world" nations? what is significant about that? and if this is true why are you making such a to-do about violence in the USA when, according to your cryptic factoid here, so-called "third world" nations are every bit as violent as we are?



- And that according to the current US administrations "Project for a New American Century", the American people are now to rule the world by force, using any and all means necessary to enforce their interests and principles whenever and upon whoever they see fit, with no regard for international law or opinion. As we are currently witnessing in Iraq.
&&--excuse me, but you REALLY need to not use phrases like "the American people" in a generalized manner when what you are referring to is a SMALL SELECT GROUP OF POLICTICIANS. That organization and that document do not officially represent our administration; it is a private organization, albeit it's manifesto has been signed by a number of people who currently serve in Bush's cabinet.
The government is NOT the same as "the people." Our president did not even win by majority vote. So stop portraying all Americans as if they support these heinous views; the majority of them don't, as evidenced by the results of the last presidential election.



This is the part that threatens me the most - hence my concern at the apparent lack of self-awareness among many - not all, but seemingly a majority of Americans.
&&--how many Americans do you know personally, then? There are several hundred million of us. Do tell, how it is *you* know how the majority of us think and feel about things.


I believe that the author of the first article I linked to has some very vital keys to understanding why this is so - and those keys found in the education system, among other places. I find these comments of particular interest: "Americans have little genuine understanding of the major role played by war throughout the American experience.

Historians, however, are well aware that war taught Americans how to fight, helped unite the diverse American population, and helped stimulate the national economy, among other significant things. But this is not the message that they have presented to the American people, concerned perhaps they might undermine Americans' self-image.

... The explanation lies, first, with historians' abdication of responsibility systematically to deal with the issue of violence in America ... and, second, with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality – which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation."

&&--this is all more of the same sort of broad-brushstroke generalizing. It would be nice to see some acknowledgement of the political, social, economic, racial and educational diversity of our nation.

On a more personal level, my sister has lived near Ft. Lauderdale Florida for over 20 years now, and the changes in her attitudes/behavior are quite remarkable when it comes to violence/expectation of violence. She's carried a handgun in her purse for a couple years now, seems to think that it's just not safe to leave home without it, that it's just a natural everyday thing to carry a gun for personal safety. Such an attitude - or need - would have been unthinkable to her before she left Canada, as it continues to be for the rest of the family! I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to feel so threatened by violence that you'd "need" to a gun to go to the corner store - and nor would I ever want to!
--well, that's your sister. One person. How is she representative of any population group?
Plenty of people live in Florida who DON'T carry handguns on their person every day...gee, maybe she found it a normal thing to do because of all the gun ownership in Canada???

How about some facts to back up all this Yank-bashing, eh?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:28 PM

Art...Scotland is free!As are England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They form a federation of States like the States in the US.Home rule is a different matter. If Scotland votes for home rule and its own Parliament it can have it. Many English, Welsh and Northern Irish have no objections as long as Scotland then pays the full costs of its schools, hospitals, roads, defence,etc currently subsidised from general taxation of all Uk citizens, as you would expect Texas to do if it left the Union.Or as many Canadians would expect if Quebec left Canada.And Quebec is "free".
(ducks)

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM

$399 billion and can't even frighten you and your sister from feeling all cozy and safe up there? At least you can be glad for the incompetence of it.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:58 PM

Well, jeepers, daylia...let me just speak for George Bush Jr., since he is too busy saving the world right now to have time to respond to you on these scurrilous accusations!

*** Ahem...

Look here, daylia, if you're not with us you're against us! Got that? There is a battle ragin' in the world between good and EVIL, and we do not intend to let evil win! You can take that to the bank.

Now, fightin' evil is a BIG job, lemme tell ya, and we are not one bit ashamed about spendin' half the whole world's annual arms budget doin' so. No siree! Hell, if I didn't have a weak-kneed Congress to deal with, half-full of pussyfootin' Democrats and even some Republicans who (I'm ashamed to say) do not have the moral fiber to stand up and defend this sacred Union of 50 states we got here...well, I could see easily jackin' defence spendin' up to 75% of the whole world's arms expenditures...or more. Whatever it takes to utterly defeat Evil.

I am not the kind to take the bull by the horns and then walk out of the corral, and I am gonna hang in there and keep fightin' until people in this world smarten up and stop opposing the spread of democracy by force. Our kind of democracy, I mean. It's the only real kind there is.

I don't see anything wrong with people carryin' handguns in their purses, as long as they are supporters of our democratic system. If they aren't, they had better watch it, cos if too many traitors and other unpatriotic people start packin' that kind of firepower, well, we are just gonna have to take drastic action, and impound ALL firearms for the safety of the American public, and increase the Swat teams and put together a homeland security force of a hundred thousand special paramilitary police with emergency powers. I don't wanna have to do that, but I will if I must in order to protect our sacred values, given by God to these here United States.

It's not an easy job to stamp out organized evil, but I intend to do it if I have to build a prison in every damn county in America, and if I have to invade every damn country that won't give our oil companies favourable contracts.

The alternatives are too horrible to contemplate. Anarchy, surrender, nukular terrorism, and the decline and probable collapse of our society. I am not gonna let that happen.

Like I said, daylia, you're either with us or against us.

Dubya

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:45 PM

Daylia: You are just full of piss and vinegar today, aren't you? You GO girl.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM

Thanks everyone for your comments, especially those with personal stories highlighting the non-violent nature of most human beings, including Americans. THere's hope in that!

Yet such facts as these still remain - that the US spends five times as much as any other nation on it's military ($399 billion last year, as compared with the $80 billion of the second highest nation, and Canada's lowly $7.9 billion according to a list pdc posted on another recent thread). Although it seems obvious, just why is this if war is not the expected and historically accepted "American Way" of dealing with international conflict?

- That the US rates for childhood homicide, suicide and firearm-related death are five times higher than any other industrialized nation (click here for the American study and scroll down to the graph at the bottom of the page for easy reference). That's a significant difference! Why is this so, if American culture does not somehow "breed" the ideology/expectation/acceptance of violence as a solution to problems?

- That the homicide rates in major US cities are at third-world, rather than first-world levels;

- And that according to the current US administrations "Project for a New American Century", the American people are now to rule the world by force, using any and all means necessary to enforce their interests and principles whenever and upon whoever they see fit, with no regard for international law or opinion. As we are currently witnessing in Iraq.

This is the part that threatens me the most - hence my concern at the apparent lack of self-awareness among many - not all, but seemingly a majority of Americans. I believe that the author of the first article I linked to has some very vital keys to understanding why this is so - and those keys found in the education system, among other places. I find these comments of particular interest: "Americans have little genuine understanding of the major role played by war throughout the American experience.

Historians, however, are well aware that war taught Americans how to fight, helped unite the diverse American population, and helped stimulate the national economy, among other significant things. But this is not the message that they have presented to the American people, concerned perhaps they might undermine Americans' self-image.

... The explanation lies, first, with historians' abdication of responsibility systematically to deal with the issue of violence in America ... and, second, with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality – which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation."

On a more personal level, my sister has lived near Ft. Lauderdale Florida for over 20 years now, and the changes in her attitudes/behavior are quite remarkable when it comes to violence/expectation of violence. She's carried a handgun in her purse for a couple years now, seems to think that it's just not safe to leave home without it, that it's just a natural everyday thing to carry a gun for personal safety. Such an attitude - or need - would have been unthinkable to her before she left Canada, as it continues to be for the rest of the family! I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to feel so threatened by violence that you'd "need" to a gun to go to the corner store - and nor would I ever want to!

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:35 PM

Well, consider her boundary populations: fish, fish, eskimos and Americans.   Nice work if you can get it! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM

A little self-promotion here: If Canada had different neighbors, she might find herself having to defend herself militarily just as a lot of other countries do. In that sense, perhaps the USA helped create the 'niceness' of Canada? (Only slightly TIC...:)

Larry, from my perspective, that's appalling. I have not been present at an incident of violence- except once at a party one guy jumped on his brother after the brother had made a belittling remark about first guy's wife, and they rolled on the floor together, scandalizing the whole party. Alcohol was involved.

Is it because of your activism as a peaceful Quaker that you have gotten involved in so many violent incidents? I can easily believe that if I were a black woman or man in this country I would be familiar with a wide variety of violence.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:46 PM

Inobu:

That's a fascinatin' and impressive inventory of physical force, mate. I don't think any of the above were counting what they've seen televised from elsewhere -- they were talking about right there upon them, which is what you've been through.

It gives me pause to reflect on the differences. Dunno what to think of it just yet, though.

But it is clear ya got clangers of brass.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:34 PM

I am a student of history and, I like to think, a little bit of a historian myself, and I had never heard of Richard Maxwell Brown until this thread. He is apparently an Emeritus Professor at the University of Oregon.

Like Uncle Dave O (although with a few fewer years), I have never seen or been involved in an incident of violence in my life. Additionally, in three generations of my family, grandfater, father and me, there are 65 years of military service, and none of us ever owned a firearm.

Yes, there are probably hundreds of instances of violent crime in the United States every day...and the population of the US is nearly 291,000,000 and it covers over 3,500,000 square miles.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM

My Dear friend Uncle Dave O
I was mystified at your responce that you never saw another committ violence in America! So, let me ask a few quesitons... (and I AM kidding, so don't take offence anyone, especially dave, meant to make folks smile here...)
1. Are you blind?
2. Have you a habit of killing folks who look like they are about to committ a violent act, so by getting the drop on them, you don't see them committ violence?
3. Are you a hermit, born into a hermit family in Amish country and either don't drink or drink at home as to stay out of bars?
4. Are you a wealthy poet living in New York's west Village?
E. Are you one of those Americans who live in an abondoned nuclear missile sylo?
F. Are you so sick of these questions you are ready to slug me?

Cheers Dave O, and let me know where you live, I want to live there too!
Larry
PS Off the top of my head, I am not quite yet 50, I have seen a fellow get shot in the heart about 15 feet away from me, seen the imidiate aftermath of two fellows shoot each other, seen a fellow fall to the pavement at my feet from a doorway with a knife in his back, Two large buildings down town fall killing several thousand folks, countless people beaten bloody, cops crack peaceful protesters on the head drawing blood, lots of blood, a girl friend's bloody head after a "hard hat" hit her in the head with a spanner during a peace demo in the seventies, my father right after he was stabbed in the back and neck 11 times, had a bottle broken over my head - unprovoked by a stranger, was knocked down, punched in the face about two months ago by a stranger (didn't like plain Quakes I suppose) was sucker punched unconcious in a bar in Boston after I desegrigated rowing there, well that is just off the top of my head without much thought.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

China? Japan? What's left of the USSR?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

What I perhaps should have said is that America is the only major country that has a personal memory of it's violent youth (the last big cattle drive was in 1909); and treasures it. When I say personal, I mean that I'v spoken personally to Civil War veterans and Mexican - American War veterans. And have an uncle who was shot by Dillinger.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM

to MMario and Amos;

Ft Worth is hardly a border town. It's pretty much in the middle of the state. And the nearest brown faces were on the other side of Liberty Steel Mills, a good mile and a half away, or more. No, this was solid white, blue collar violence.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,Metchosin
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:24 PM

Sorry that was me, I'm at my father-in-laws computer while he recovers from a bout of double pneumonia at age 85

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

MMario, I had second thoughts about including Great Britain in my list, but retained it because despite the Falkland Islands and the ongoing troubles in Northern Ireland, I did not have the feeling that war would be the immediate first response to the event. Maybe overly optomistic.

However to me, it seemed certain that America would respond like a large wounded animal, looking around for anyone or anything to take out its fear, outrage and frustrations upon. And for good or ill that was my response as the mouse sitting next to the elephant.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Ebbie:

"The USA is unique in its mix of immigrants, people who come here with, by and large, the same dream but bringing with them their own unique culture and expectations. There are bound to be clashes stemming from historical hatreds and distrusts."

No, the USA is not unique in its immigrant mix. Australia, Canada, England, Germany -- many other countries in the world have an enormous mix of immigrants, either throughout the history of their settlement or in more recent times.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:04 PM

um...those colonists in 1600 were Englishmen.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 03:03 PM

Great Britain has such a better track record? How many invasions? How many colonies? Crusades? Ireland?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:59 PM

1600
Then 'I say native - give me that mountain and valley'
Native ' no I will not give it you'
Colonist ' all right then ' takes gun and shoots native in the breast.
Native ' help help I am dying '
Colonist 'shut up and take your medicine ...yes go and hurry up so I can plant these fertile plains and virgins'
2003
Now ' Hey you raghead - gimme dem oil wells'
Native ' no I will not and what is more if you so much as dare to come over here I will shoot you'
Colonist ' oh ok then' goes over there and bombs the bejee out of the ragheads.
Raghead ' you cheated '
Colonist ' I already knew that tell me something new'
Raghead 'ok go away'
Coloninst ' only after we steal all your oilwells'
Raghead ' fine but don't expect us not to hate yer guts afterwards'

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:31 PM

Well, four minutes maybe !

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:26 PM

Don, you beat me by two minutes !!!! It looks like we agree. **BIG SMILE**

Art

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:22 PM

I'm with Amos.

That said, violence is something that many peoples around the world hold in reserve to be used, hopefully, rarely ------- and after serious deliberation----as with Winston Churchill and William Wallace, the terrorists who destroyed the King David Hotel, the World Trade Center, all the lives lost in Ireland on all sides there, the Corsican and American Mafias, street gangs, the newer Russian mafias, the fights after soccer games, during hockey games, the "police riot" in Chicago during the 1968 Democratic National Convention, and on and on ad infinitum. Include all of the people, armys and weapons dealer war profiteers who FOUGHT BACK in all of these preceeding situations I've mentioned as well as all that I've forgotten to point out. Don't leave out all of the crusades and the tribal wars of Africa, Native-Americans etc.

Let us ALL look to our legends for the roots of this sad reality.

And as Bob said, "Now is the time for our tears."--------- but crying over this spilt milk ---AND POINTING FINGERS won't change anything.

I have no answers. Just "is what is." Americans, at least, have learned to enjoy watching the panorama. Sometimes we take what we see and turn it into art--or whatever. It's a great show---and the film, even if it isn't true, just might lead to freedom for Scotland.

;-) Art Thieme ;-)

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 02:20 PM

Generally: If you look at America out of context with the history of the rest of the world, you will see a substantial amount of violence. It started with a revolution and expanded with such self-righteously aggressive concepts as "Manifest Destiny." Rarely does a generation go by that the United States is not engaged in a war or major conflict with one or more other nations, or, at times, internal conflicts, such as the Civil War, or some of the early labor disputes, or some of the more violent responses to the Civil Rights movement in the Sixties.

But—if you look at the history of other nations, I don't think you will find that the United States is any more or less violent than many other large nations. There are nations that seem to get along very nicely without violence, at least within recent times, such as Canada, which I don't see getting involved in international disputes unless they are dragged into it by someone else (usually the U. S.), and the Scandinavian countries, which, in the main, seem to me to be amazingly civilized compared to most. And if we in the U. S. dropped some of our economic prejudices, I think we could learn a great deal from them. Happy, productive people who have leisure time to enjoy life, respect for culture and tradition without feeling they have to push it on the rest of the world, an effective social safety net with excellent health care, no poor, no inordinately rich, everyone has enough, and they are not aggressive, indeed often coming to the aid of other countries in need. This is something we would do well to emulate (whether they are "socialistic" [shudder with horror!] or not). That is, if our leaders, both in and out of political office, had an ounce of humanity and were not so pathologically caught up in the narrow realms of greed, power-lust, and "our rightful place in the world," i.e. economic and political domination.

American ideals are exemplary. But this country, in general, lacks the courage to bring those ideals into fruition. After all, we, the people, are supposed to be an "informed electorate" and our public servants are supposed to be working for us, not just for themselves and their own grasping little cliques. Get off your butts, people! Learn! Get involved! The 2004 election is not that far away!!

Personally: Within my own experience (and, like Uncle DaveO, I've been here awhile; I'll be 72 my next birthday), I personally have seen very little actual violence. I have never been involved in any, apart from sporting events—I used to fence when I was younger (fencing is more skill and tactics than physical violence), and I've done a lot of shooting—at paper targets and empty soft drink cans (target shooting is more like golf that anything violent). I have seen about three bar-fights in my life, and a shouting-match/push fest in front of a restaurant once, but it was pretty obvious that it also was fueled by over-consumption of booze.

I have seen lots of violence—in movies and on television screens. Of all the people I have met in my life, I can only think of three or four that I would consider to be violent people, and they had mental problems and could hardly be considered "typical Americans."

On the other hand, of our national leaders, especially the current ones, I don't consider them to be "typical Americans" either.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,Guest Metchosin
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:43 PM

I think I would agree with Daylia too, based upon my thoughts when watching the events of September 11th unfold. Apart from my initial reaction to the horror of the situation that was unfolding, I kept hoping upon hope that cooler heads in the US would prevail as a reaction to the event. I was fairly certain even on that day, that the US would go to war over this.

I'm pretty certain that I wouldn't have had the same thought pop into my head, had the same kind of event occurred in Great Britain, France, Germany or most any other country in the world, for that matter.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM

To set the record straight Ft Worth { where I live now } is NOT a border town - if that is relevant to this discussion. Ft Worth is just west of Dallas in north Texas.

And I'm curious Misophist - what part of town did you live in - the northside or Jacksboro Highway ? I would think that Ft Worth is a much safer place to live now.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

good point, LH; I suppose it is extremism that always gets the most attention; hence on the nightly news we see only the worst crimes and disasters...and the occasional rescue of a dog stranded on the ice.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:27 PM

Peg - People are NOT "by and large a violent lot". I can testify to that from the whole experience of my life. A very small minority of people are "a violent lot", and they cause trouble out of all proportion to their numbers, AND...they garner immense attention from the media! Most people are non-violent most of the time, and the media ignores that.

Your observation would be better put to say: "All societies contain a certain number of people who tend to be violent." (like about 5%, I would guess...)

It should be added to that, that: Poverty and desperation can cause a larger number of people to turn to violence than is usual under more favourable circumstances. That this is so is not a reflection upon the evil of humanity, but the evil of oppression and inequity.

Walk through ghettos late at night, flashing your money, and you will discover that to be true...whether in the USA or elsewhere.

I'm never impressed by arguments that try to pin "original sin" or its secular equivalent upon human beings.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

Couldn't it be that the mix of races and cultures and varied histories in this country have a great deal to do with both the problems and the successes of our society?

As an example- I'm a docent/researcher in a historical house in Alaska- I have been frequently asked by tourists "why Americans move so often? In Europe, we live on the land our great, great, grandfathers lived on." One day over tea, a young Swiss couple asked that question and I finally came up with the right answer. I said, "Because we come from people who didn't stay home. We inherited your emigrants' wanderlust."

The USA is unique in its mix of immigrants, people who come here with, by and large, the same dream but bringing with them their own unique culture and expectations. There are bound to be clashes stemming from historical hatreds and distrusts.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM

I agree with Daylia, and the article she cited, that America is a violent culture, although that fact does not mean that individual Americans are violent. It's difficult to separate "America" from "Americans," although I guess one could define the former as the government/leaders.

Violence may well be inculcated into the culture as a sort of national characteristic, rather than an individual one:

"...the rocket's red glare; the bombs bursting in air..."

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:56 PM

Actually, all these "Are Americans x" or "Do folkies y" propositions are ridiculously flawed.

The logic of a large political label, like "American" being tied to a peculiarity of individual makeup is just dysfunctional thinking. And so is trying to tie something that is globally human to a peculiar subset like being a citizen of the U.S., or eating peanut butter.

Are peanut-butter lovers violent? Are fish truly democratic? How many times can you say "yadda" very fast....?

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 12:49 PM

well said Amos, and others. I think this is a spurious argument, but I would agree that since the American way of life is exported through media then the perception may well be that America is a violent culture...but if people were shown the behavior that goes on in smaller countries (that apparently are not as interesting to TV watchers and magazine readers as the USA) they'd probably have to agree that human beings are by and large a violent lot...

the article sounds interesting but I think the exact same principles could be applied to any number of countries with violent histories...

Daylia seems to frequently enjoy going on about how perfect Canada is and creating opportunities to take potshots at the USA. The USA is a huge and powerful nation and far from perfect...but coming from a non-US citizen, this is a form of trolling, IMHO. I don't think it's about a deepening understanding and I say that based on the many other posts of yours I've read which criticize Americans and America with a very broad brush...we're an easy target, I guess.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:33 AM

Strange that the oh-so-violent American games, videos, etc, etc; usually have a healthy overseas sales record...

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM

Violence isn't an American problem...

It's a problem of people who value immediate personal gain over morality, law, brotherhood, and long term security. Primitive or immature people, in other words. Such people are found in all societies. It is notable, though, that such behaviour is constantly glorified in American culture through TV, movies, vidoegames, and so on. Immaturity sells bigtime! And as the child is bent, so grows the adult.

- LH