Violence is the American Way?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:47 AM

Let me point out, thought that the United States also spends billions more than any other nation in the world in helping other countries.
Does this mean that charity IS THE American way?

Not necessarily Amos, if you are speaking of US Government Aid to other poorer countries in the world, as far as industrialized nations go, the US, per capita based on GNP, is actually at the bottom of the heap.
But as far as donations to NGOs are concerned, I wouldn't be surprized if the Americans, as individuals, are not the most charitable.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 03:33 AM

I started a thread about a month ago questioning the violence of people. I can conclude from that discussion that violence is everywhere and it's born from fear. I will not deny that there is too much violence in the US, but I cannot agree that it is only the US. Daylia, you, yourself posted on a thread about Canada, all the wars Canada has been involved in, including wars where Canada made it there before any US involvement, so to base violence on war statistics I think we can also include oh... about every country in the world. It looked like that was where Dr. Ira Leonard was going with his(I think Ira is a man, by the way!) article.
I'm not here to dog you though Daylia, I can see where your coming from and your concerns about violence. I just had a talk with a young man who brought a knife to school because he was being harrassed by some kids. He thought that was the thing to do. Use a weapon to keep these guys away from him. When I think about my response to him I actually shame myself. First I asked why he couldn't stay away from them and/or try to work it out. He said there was no way he could be friends with these guys. Then I asked why he couldn't just use his fists if he had to, instead of a weapon. So I helped to support a violence in using that mentality. Thinking of it as a milder form of violence, I still promoted violence and thinking about it now, I see I did the wrong thing and am ashamed of myself.
So really, Dalia, thanks. By starting this thread, I have evaluated a bit of my own thoughts and reactions to the problem of violence and find it inside of me as well. Now the thing to do is figure out an approach that moves us toward love.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 02:25 AM

Canada is a resource-rich country with a very small population. As long as George W. Bush is president of the US, Canadians will quite naturally fear, if not actual invasion, at least some form of coercion when the US has wasted its own resources and needs more to sustain a certain level of lifestyle.

I honestly wish that a US administration would return to the days of American isolationism, and focus the huge amounts of money that are available in that wealthy country on domestic issues. The infrastructure, education system, health care, poverty, racism, waste, the environment -- these are not problems unique to the US. But the US has so much money! So much could be accomplished for Americans themselves, if an administration would focus within.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM

hmmm....many hours gone by. Daylia has expended a great deal of energy and no doubt hours of her oh-so-valuable time continuing to offer dubious statistics, but NOT answering anyone's direct questions, despite being urged to do so by at least a half dozen well-reasoned people who have politely requested she put up, or shut up.

But she refuses to answer. No attempt to address these very fair questions. Just more smug, condescending put-downs. More over-the-top generalizations about "Americans."

Why is that?

She also recommends that Doug shoot me. Gee, that's nice.

I agree that she has put herself at the end of that tree limb and is fearful of dropping off.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:44 AM

LH -

Is the US the only military threat to Canada? Almost certainly. Who else is going to make it? Even if they were capable of the kind of assault performed without ANY land base of operations (unlikely; even the US desperately wanted a land base to attack a little, relatively defenseless country like Iraq), said attacker would also have to contend with your next door neighbor and ally being capable of getting a large army there virtually overnight.

Logistically speaking, yes, the US is really Canada's only potential threat. While being your only threat, we are also your best protection.

Is the US a threat to Canada? I very seriously doubt it, at least in the military sense. Most Americans consider Canada practically part of the US, and while it's easy to mount a publicity campaign against somewhere very distant with, you know, foreigners! There would have to be literally decades of a constant propaganda campaign about the "danger from the north," sustained over multiple government administrations. Nor would the other western allies stand for it, if not for altruistic reasons, simply because if the US would attack Canada, it would be obvious they'd attack any of the others, too.

Even if the US were seized by a warlike dictator and the Constitution suspended, Canada would be WAY down the list of targets when there are so many others the US could attack and sieze control of with relative impunity from it's western allies and from the wrath of it's citizens.

But maybe the US is a threat in the economic sense. An economic and political "annexation" of Canada is possible and probably desirable to some. Economic control over the resources of Canada would be MUCH cheaper and better for business and political gain than a war where we might suffer our own civilian casualties -- something almost everywhere else understands but is totally unthinkable to the US.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM

We fear the American administration, too.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:25 AM

Ebbie - Actually, and I am saying this in all seriousness, a great many ordinary Canadians fear a possible American intervention at some time, even a military intervention in Canada at some point in the unfolding century which is ahead of us.... The USA IS regarded by a great many Canadians as the only country in the World which is a genuine threat to Canada . I can recall at least ten situations in the past month or two when someone I know has quietly said something to that effect...and not necessarily someone I even hear discussing politics normally.

This does not mean Canadians fear Americans. We don't. We fear the American administration! Note the difference. We generally like Americans.

Why do we fear American intervention? Because we have great natural resources up here, including the World's largest remaining reserves of fresh water, which will soon prove far more valuable than oil (if it isn't already). And...we have a rather small population and military, which means we can't really defend ourselves, except by guerilla warfare.

That's the fact of the matter. There is great nervousness up here regarding the present and future intentions of the United States Government.

This has nothing to do with liking or disliking ordinary Americans, it has to do with your government and your mega corporations. We look south across that border with great concern for the future. We wonder how long our own way of life, which is a bit more socialist than yours (in terms of health care and a couple of other things), will survive.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:00 AM

Well, daylia, I never said you weren't feeling what you are feeling. It is your sovereign right to feel exactly what you feel.   I just think you've mis-located the target for that feeling.

But okay -- violence is certainly part of the American way just as it is part of the "way" of any x-million strangers thrown into association.

Let me point out, thought that the United States also spends billions more than any other nation in the world in helping other countries. Does this mean that charity IS THE American way?

Historically, we have more patents per capita over the centuries than any other nation. So, it is obvious that Invention is the American way. Unless you count the amount we spend buying judges and votes in Washington. Tehn it is clear that Bribery is the American way.


At one point we probably had more Christian missions out among the unconverted than any other nation, proving, for a fact, that Evangelism is the American Way.

We also, I dare say, consume more cartoons than any other nation, proving that Skimpy Unreality is the American way.

We have more outdoor cookouts than any other nation on earth, too. Clearly the American Way is to Barbecue!!

Now, don't start denying all these statistical facts -- it will only prove that you are in de nile up to your knickers.

But under all these impressive statistics is a broader statistic, which proves irrefutably that the American Way is smart aleckery and weisenheimering. That much is absolutely indisputable.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MAG
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM

Oh, I can say that in Chicago I was mugged 3 times that I remember, burgled an equal numberof times, had my car stolen and trashed from the parking lot of the Conservatory -- and that was BEFORE I lived in Miami for 3 hellacious years -- where I suffered more violent crime than in my entire 17 years in Chicago.

When I first moved to Chicago I worked in a deli on 53rd St., swing shift -- in the fall, people refused to believe that I walked the 3 blocks home at midnight alone. (D-uh. dumb hick.) They said, to a person, I wasn't attacked for the $30 or so in my pocket because people assumed I would be "packing."

I think it was Stokely Carmichael who said "Violence is as American as apple pie."

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:16 PM

('Twould appear that this is descending into a bit of verbal violence.)

McGrath observes: "And since it is Americans making the films and the programmes, the impression gets across that this must be how people in America like to see their country presented."

This is less a matter of how people in America like to see their country presented than it is a matter of what Hollywood producers and writers assume American audiences want to see. And, unfortunately, this feedback mechanism does seem to come into play, not so much with adults, but with adolescents, particularly younger adolescents. The latter seem to be the ones who fill the theaters where violent movies are playing (from my own observation and the observation of people I've talked with, often ten-, eleven-, and twelve-year-olds, despite a given movie's PG-13 rating). And although the argument goes on, it's difficult not to assume that this doesn't have something to do with recent violence in high schools.

However, not every American, by any means, is fond of this kind of fare. The movie industry would go bust if they depended on people like my wife and me (the last movie we saw in a theater was Jurassic Park, and although it wasn't human on human violence, it was more that sufficient violence for us!). And as far as television is concerned, apart from watching a couple of sit-comes (usually Brit-coms) we generally watch Masterpiece Theatre, which offers good drama by anybody's standards, and an occasional movie of similar quality, often videotapes from the public library. The nearest thing to crime dramas we watch is Mystery on our local PBS affiliate (currently showing a series of "Miss Marple" mysteries—not exactly "shoot 'em ups"). And I usually watch JAG, which, despite its military setting, is primarily a courtroom drama. It's a literate show with well-rounded characters. About the most violent things we watch on television are reruns of Star Trek in its various permutations. According to published ratings (in which they sample a couple thousand households and extrapolate from there), Barbara and I may be in a minority, but we are certainly not unique. In fact, we're actually pretty representative of a fairly substantial minority. Most of the people we know either don't watch television at all, or they watch pretty much the kind of shows we watch. We do not find violence—especially gratuitous violence—entertaining.

Some years ago, Cleveland Amory wrote a column for TV Guide, in which he said that the problem of violence on television was that it was not violent enough. Magnum gets punched in the mouth, at which point he falls down a flight of stairs and slams into a wall. He gets up, wipes a drop of blood from the corner of his mouth, dashes up the stairs and pounds the villain into insensibility (Cheers! By then, we know the bad guy had it coming!). All very heroic. But considering the apparent force of the punch that Magnum received followed by his spectacular tumble down the stairs, if this were the real world, the next scene would have shown him in a hospital bed, a few limbs in casts and in traction, his lips blue and swollen, in need of extensive reconstructive dental work, and with his jaw wired shut. Amory was suggesting that if the actual, realistic results of that kind of violence were shown, then all that rock 'em sock 'em "heroism" might not be quite so glamorous!

But when it comes to raw violence in entertainment, it would be hard to outdo Japanese comic books (manga) or the tsunami of martial arts movies from Hong Kong within recent decades. Compared to the depictions of violence that the populace of some other countries relish as entertainment, even the most violent American movies seem relatively mild.

Is violence the American way? I'm not quite sure what is meant by "the American way." If one were to try to lay out "the American way" as some sort of portrait of the average American (whoever that might be), to be fair, you would have to dilute your images of violence with a number of other images: such as those who contribute food, and volunteer to cook and serve at the noon lunches for the homeless given by five nearby churches; or the Lutheran Alliance for Affordable Housing and similar volunteer organizations, that seek out permanent or semi-permanent places for these same homeless; or those who get together on Saturday mornings to provide a gathering place for a group of developmentally delayed adults who would have no other opportunity for social interaction; or the people who make up an organization called "Alternatives to Violence," who conduct workshops in both the local prisons and in the community in an effort to demonstrate that there are other ways to solve problems than by violence. And let's not forget the millions of people nationwide who gather in groups of hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands every few days to protest the Bush Administration's bellicose foreign policy, and continue to do so week after week, whether the media chooses to cover them or not, because they feel strongly that they must do something to protest against the violence and indicate that they do not condone the actions of the government.

Statistics don't tell the whole story. Is violence that American way? To say "yes" on the basis of a page of statistics would be unfair to an awful lot of Americans. And it would certainly not give you a clear picture of what the vast majority of Americans are really like.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:08 PM

Culture cannot be measured; there is no way to prove or disprove a culture is this or that, because it is intrinsically tied up in perception and personal experience. There is no "America" in 25 words or less, and concepts like "national character" are garbage, particularly when dealing with a group as vast and diverse as the US.

The only rebuttal to such a broad and pointless attack is to weaken the hypothesis by showing the same can apply to many others. I *could* sit down and do a historical analysis of several countries compared to the US. I *could* discuss each of the points you've brought up.

I *could*, but I won't, because despite your claims that you want a reasoned discussion, you really seem to want a platform to display your fear of and repugnance for Americans. Your numerous snide comments are irrelevant, rude, and certainly do not help your case any because they make you appear far too prejudiced to argue rationally.

If you really haven't the time to back up your hypothesis, as you claim, you probably shouldn't attempt to instigate such a deep discussion. Based on what you have posted so far, you haven't begun to support your hypothesis. "So-and-so says" doesn't cut it. Statistics (which are notoriously unreliable) don't cut it. What you are missing is your OWN thoughtful, reasoned and objective arguments -- yet you want everyone else to live up to a standard that you don't meet.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:46 PM

poff

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:27 PM

Peg dragged you in, Doug? Well what are you standing around for - Shoot her, for pete's sake! ;)

Greg, thanks for the article. And to those of you who choose to ignore not only the historical and statistical evidence that violence is indeed "the American Way" but also the tragic events unfolding worldwide right now as your "glorious leaders" enforce their American principles and American interests on the rest of the world, I ask you to remember these words (which I saw recently attributed to Mark Twain?!?):

"Denial is not a river in Egypt" Just be careful - you might drown yourselves - and the rest of the world - in it.

And to those of you who've tried the argumentum ad hominem tactic - sorry, it's not working! But thanks for showing just how accurate the "mutual causation" hypothesis is.

Ebbie, Amos - Did you know how ridiculous - never mind arrogant - it is to tell someone else how they do or don't feel? Yes, the Project for a New American Century scares and threatens me - just as it angers and terrifies the rest of the world. And like I said, if it weren't for that, I really wouldn't give even ONE STICKY HAIR off the nuts of that dried beaver about "American culture" or the "American Way".

Still waiting for credible statistical/historical/scholarly evidence that American history and culture predisposes it's people towards peaceful, patient diplomacy and compromise, not war and violence, as the acceptable way of dealing with conflict - interpersonally and internationally.

Then again, maybe I should know that already - after all, it must be "common knowledge" south of the border, judging by what I've read here today!

;) daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:17 PM

of course Canada has WMDs DougR, you store yours on our military bases, but then, you know about those ones, don't you.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: DougR
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM

Perhaps Mr. Carrol should move to Canada Greg!

daylia: I knew it! I knew you were getting these hairbrained ideas from some place! Academia, the birthplace of most bad ideas! :>)

And then Peg has to drag ME into it.

We are a peaceful country, daylia, do not fear our invading you (unless you got some WMDs we don't know about).

DougR

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:40 PM

Believe me, if it weren't for the ever-present, very real and constantly growing threat to my personal safety and well-being presented by the US, I wouldn't give the nuts off a dried beaver about Americans or their culture!

I suggest this is a fictitious--or at least seriously mis-identified--fear. So perhaps we should agree on a Dried Beaver Reciprocity Treaty here, and go calmly aboot our business, eh?


A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 06:28 PM

A NATION LOST

By James Carroll
Boston Globe, 4/22/2003

EVEN BEFORE conclusions can be drawn about the war in Iraq (Saddam? Weapons of mass
destruction? Iraqi stability? Cost to civilians? Syria?) a home front consensus is jelling around a
radical revision of America's meaning in the world.

Centered on coercive unilateralism, the new doctrine assumes that the United States not only stands
apart from other countries but above them. The primitive tribalism of boys at football games --
''We're number one!'' -- has been transformed into an axiom of strategy....

Whole article HERE

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:06 PM

Believe me, if it weren't for the ever-present, very real and constantly growing threat to my personal safety and well-being presented by the US, I wouldn't give the nuts off a dried beaver about Americans or their culture! Bull pucky. I don't believe for a minute, daylia, that you feel threatened by us, or at least not any more threatened by our governmental administration than we feel threatened by our governmental administration. You been watching too much TV, kiddo.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:47 PM

When, by the way, did the US invade Canada? There were invasions in 1775, 1812 and 1813, when that region was British North America and the US was at war with Britain. Of course, the final (1813) invasion only happened after the British army and local militia had attacked south and taken Detroit. There was also the Sein Finn "invasion" in, I think, 1866, but that was quickly put down by US troops. Oh yeah, there was also the "pig war" on San Juan Island in 1859...does it count if nobody gets hurt except the pig?

Did "Canada," as a nation, exist before the British North America Act of 1867. Or was it the British acceptance of Canada as a soverign state in 1931? Or later still? Sorry, but I do not believe that the United States has ever invaded the nation of Canada.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Alba
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

I agree McGrath
Oh well so much for "I am not posting this here to point at finger at anyone"....surely that is exactly what this article does!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM

True enough about Martial Arts and Hong Kong and Japan. But I think people are more likely to see those as fantasy.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM

I dont think that on the whole the average American is more violent than anyone else, the problem lies in that there are so many of you, thats why your crime figures are higher. I dont know how easy it is to get a fierarm in the US but I do know that even with our extreemly strict gun controlls over here (UK) it is not that hard to find a gun if you really want to.
You can manipulate figures to say more or less what you want them to it's all a matter of presentation.
As for US films and TV been violent have you ever seen the Martial arts films out of HK? or the Japaneese Anime, it is what society asks for the industry delivers, it's got to be bigger and better each time.
As a very non American I personaly dont feel threatend by Americans for the most part I find that they are rather nice folks, with the obvious exceptions, NYR fans and all those who dont think that a certain Mr Rose should be forgiven:-)

going into hiding yet again LoL

De orc

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM

I'm sure America is nothing like as violent as it portrays itself through films and TV. But that is how it is constantly presented, so it's not really surprising if people pick up the impression that it must be an appallingly violent country. As Nicole observed when she visited Europe.

And since it is Americans making the films and the programmes, the impression gets across that this must be how people in America like to see their country presented.

What would be worrying is if people in other countries were to treat this version of America, and of violent sub-cultures America, as role models, to be copied. And also if it has that kind of effect in America itself, so you get a feedback process.

It's very easy for this kind of discussion to turn into a squabble, but it's not the best use of this facility we have here.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:10 PM

daylia, your last post proved to me what I suspected. To somehow suggest that we are on the verge of invading our northern neighbor on the basis of an "invasion" that occurred over 125 years ago, is so ludicrous as to barely be worth responding too. I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain to me how the numerous times we have intervened in generous ways around the world would affect your logic? I wonder how the American blood that has been shed alongside Canadian, English, Scottish, Chinese, French, and all the others would mitigate your great powers of logic and intellect?

The point is that folks with the type of smug, self serving thought processes that you are displaying here are part of the problem. When you waste bandwidth with gratuitous assertions about a country as diverse as ours, you do nothing to advance understanding and peace. Many of us here fit some small part of your stereotype, but in the main are nothing close to being similar to the whole thing.

Want to cause real change and debate? Then do some homework, and create real discussion that has as its purpose enlightened discussion and understanding. What you have done is created a false predicate that supports your own prejudices and tried to debate it. The folks here are way to sharp for that.

Mick

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM

High suicide rates can result from a variety of reasons...

Hopelessness due to poverty, hopelessness due to unemployement, hopelessness due to family or school problems, and so on...it's a very large subject to discuss.

I'll quote from the Canadian Firearms Safety Course Student Handbook:

"In many cases suicide is an act of sudden impulse. It is often brought on by some temporary setback or moment of depression. These occurrences may seem trivial to the outside observer. They are not trivial to the person experiencing them. Even a failed exam, an argument with a girlfriend or boyfriend, or an accident with the family car can bring it on."

In 1995 there were 911 firearms-related suicide deaths in Canada (how about that number, eh?). They comprised 22.9% of all suicide deaths in Canada for that year. The rate has gone steadily down since 1980, when firearms accounted for 33.3% of such deaths, and it is dropping at an increasing rate.

Now...homicide in Canada. In 1995 there were 489 homicides. Compare that to the suicide rate. Eight times as many suicides as homicides!

Of the 489 homicides in Canada, 145 involved guns. That's a gun-related homicide rate of 29.7%.

Many homicides are also acts of sudden impulse, and are more easily accomplished with a gun than with a knife, a club or a fist, needless to say.

So...to wrap it up...of all the firearms-related deaths charted by Statistics Canada between 1980 and 1995...

81% were suicide
14% were homicide
5% were accidents

Kind of tells a different story from our sensationalistic press and media, doesn't it?

It appears to me that the biggest problem leading to violent death in both our societies is not violence (against others)...but despair, hopelessness, depression, and such related factors, leading to violence against oneself...which is, admittedly, often a form of indirect violence against others.

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM

The USA presently threatens the peace and safety of the whole planet.

Daylia, I think that's a pretty extreme statement. I distrust George Bush as much as anyone, I assure you, but I seriously doubt even he qualifies for such a wide swath of generalization.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

>>That's just how "common" the "knowledge" is in my neck of the woods!<<

Conclusion: Folk knowledge has its charm, but you need to travel more widely, daylia.

>>what is your percieved relationship to high suicide with culteral violence? To me they seem very different concepts,<<

Nobody offs themselves like those non-violent Norwegians and Swedes.

>>carefully selected their statisitcs. . . <<

;)

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

Yes, Daylia, and everyone KNOWS that all Chinese people are good at math, all French are cowards, all Brits are snobbish and have bad teeth and all Africans are illiterate and living in huts. Anytime a phrase starts with "everyone knows" or "it's common knowledge" you can be sure that it isn't true.

When I was in Europe a couple of years ago I met quite a few Germans who were under the impression that we still had a "wild west" with cowboys and indians shooting it out like a Hollywood movie. Does that mean it's true, simply because the archetype of the cowboy is accepted as reality?

So I'm confused -- do you wish to discuss the stereotype of the so-called violent American, or do you wish to discuss causes violence in American society? Because, quite frankly, you can't seem to distinguish between the two, and they are two very different subjects. Both have a grain of truth, but when added together you come up with rubbish, as is so frequently true of trying to perceive a society through your prejudice and preconceptions.

And as far as I can tell from your comments, your hypothesis is that anyone who DOESN'T agree that Americans are bloodthirsty and violent is either delusional or ignorant.

If I posted a thread about how it was common knowledge to those of us who have had the advantage of "living and studying" outside of Canada that all Canadians were jealous of the US because Canada was a pretty worthless country, would it be true simply because that's the sterotype?

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM

Big Mick, the USA is the ONLY country who has ever invaded mine, or who has ever threatened it. The USA presently threatens the peace and safety of the whole planet. So it's surely not too hard to figure out why people are interested in why this is so, and hope to do something to help change the tide.

Believe me, if it weren't for the ever-present, very real and constantly growing threat to my personal safety and well-being presented by the US, I wouldn't give the nuts off a dried beaver about Americans or their culture!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

daylia, I am going to jump on you too. I suspect you've isolated yourself on the end of a limb and don't know how to get down. Your 'point' seems illy made.

On the other hand I agree with you when you say: I suspect that the differences have MUCH more to do with the accessibility of firearms in each country, as well as cultural expectations/acceptance of violence - and NOT anyone's individual personality traits!

I agree that guns that can be caught up and used in the heat of the moment contribute heavily, imo, to violent incidents in the US. We're workin' on it. At this point in history we're dealing with the ludicrous notion that the government can peer over our shoulders to see what we're reading, or advising in our schools, or doing in the 'privacy' of our own homes and what causes we're involved in- and yet we cannot get consensus on the guidelines that should be used firmly and routinely when someone wants to buy a handgun.

And as I've stated before, my intention is to draw attention to these "national" differences in the hopes that as knowledge and understanding of them increase, changes will be made that will make the planet a safer place for all of us. I think that's plenty important enough to risk getting "roasted" here on Mudcat!

There's where I think your point gets blunted.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM

And your last posting still fails to answer the very simple questions asked by Peg. Oh, I forgot..........you don't have time to answer questions of substance..................Are your students going without instructions in the four posts since?..........

I repeat......answer the questions.......

Mick

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:39 PM

Again - what is your percieved relationship to high suicide with culteral violence? To me they seem very different concepts.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

And why only Americans? Perhaps you could let us know other cultures that, in your broad studies, you have found that are also violent? Or is it only the USA that you are interested in proving has a tendency towards violence? Is it our government that you are referring to, or the average citizen?

I am very interested in knowing why it is so important to you to point out what is wrong with only the USA. Perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to why it is necessary for a person not from the US to use every opportunity to point out what is wrong with us. I have found that folks who are constantly trying to point out the faults in others really doesn't want folks to look at them too closely.

Mick

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:36 PM

*snore*... huh? OH! geez, and those international homicide statistics looked so DIFFERENT to me! Obviously must be doctored! And those military budgets, and those childhood homicide/suicide/firearm related death rates - heck I coulda SWORN they looked just a TAD different!! Must be just vicious mushyheaded lies, all of them! How COULD I be so silly as to believe them?

Oops, I'm hallucinating! Sheesh where DID my fingers go? Is that the rocket's red glare I see approaching from the south? Heck no, it's the BOMBS BURSTING IN AIR!!! running for cover .... building blind out of maple leaves ..... huddlin down good ... *whew*! That was close!!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM

Both Zimring and Hawkins are associated with the Law School of the University of California at Berkeley, which has a certain reputation. Far be it from me to suggest the authors have carefully selected their statistics and analyzed them so as to make their point, however.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM

But daylia -- that's so glib. Zimring and Hawkins say that the US has a similar crime rate to Canada, at least as to non-violent crime, and impliedly as to violent crime. Ira relies on Zimrig and Hawkins. So do you. Well, okay, back to sleep, then.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM

Well I agree that being prone to and accepting of violence is "mushy-headed", to say the least. And you're right, the idea that Americans display an unusually high level of this "mushy-headedness" is not original to Ira. It's "common knowledge" not only to American scholars like herself but those outside the US that I've studied with. I first encountered these views and statistics many years ago, at high school and university. That's just how "common" the "knowledge" is in my neck of the woods!

I'd sure like to see scholarly studies/statistics that indicate the opposite is true - that Americans are predisposed historically and culturally towards peace and compromise rather than to war and violence!

Anyway, one thing's clear - it's best to let sleeping Yanks lie! They might shoot ya if they feel too 'rudely awakened'! Like, just ask Spaw eh?

;) daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM

>>However, you then go on and tie that legitimate argument in a support for the more mushy-headed proposition that Ira (with no originality, btw) that Americans are culturally prone to and accepting of violence.<<

Without typos, that would read: "However, you then go on and tie that legitimate argument in as support for the more mushy-headed proposition that Ira (with no originality, btw) advances: that Americans are culturally prone to and accepting of violence.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:51 PM

Daylia: At 10:40 a.m. you provided a nice overview of the basic thesis of Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins referenced in Ira's article, at least as to the homicide rates, and parroting their argument that handgun ownership increases the fatality rate of violent criminal activity.

However, you then go on and tie that legitimate argument in a support for the more mushy-headed proposition that Ira (with no originality, btw) that Americans are culturally prone to and accepting of violence.

Yet, in supporting the mushy headed Ira this way, you fail to mention Zimring and Hawkins' own observation that American crime rates, are similar to and in some regards lower than their UK and Canadian brethren. They point out that the lethal crime rate is much higher (attributable to guns laws, they say), but I can't tell whether the violent crime rate (lethal AND non-lethal) is so much higher, which is your real point. If it WAS so much higher, they would be detracting from their own conclusion about guns.) Do you have the stats to back up your real point?

http://www.oup-usa.org/isbn/0195131053.html

Ira should know that Bush, as a surname, is capitalized, and that a spell-check program won't catch this.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

daylia.........answer the questions. You have made assertions and refuse to justify them. You stated that our propensity for violence is "well known". And you claim to speak for someone other than yourself when you used the phrase "those of us". I feel that you speak for no one other than yourself, and that your opinion of your own views is highest only in your own mind. You use "on the square" types of statements to give yourself deniability. And the recompense line is pure crap. Peg called you on it and you just look weak in using it. Answer the questions. They are fair given your assertions...........or just disappear from this thread.

Just my two cents worth.

Mick

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:20 PM

Well, the incidence of violence in this Canadian household has gone way down since Arnot (the miniature dachshund) passed away... :-)

Damn! Now I've gone and gotten Art Thieme mad by refreshing this hateful thread again....

Oh, the humanity!

- LH

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM

Sorry Peg - not going to indulge what appears to be simply a desire to argue without fair recompense. If you had any interest in the subject at all, you'd read the articles before making either comments or attacks. Ira's article is both important and intriguing, and I provided relevant statistics to back up her claims. The information I provided is MUCH more worthy of your attention than I'll ever be!

If anyone can find any credible information that proves either her ideas or the statistics to be false, PLEASE post it here. That's why I started the thread!   

I've found the best "evidence" to counteract her claims on this thread so far have been the Catters' accounts of violence or it's absence thereof in their lives. Again, thanks to everyone for your responses.

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Peg
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM

daylia;
if you have time to type in all this drivel, you surely have time to answer my VERY simple questions.

How about just the first one: what does violence have to do with suicide?

I want to know what YOU think about this. You offered the statistics, now explain why you think it is relevant.

For someone whose time is so "valuable" you spend an AWFUL lot of time making spurious arguments on this forum; so your snotty little "response" about your hourly salary etc. makes me wonder. You just don't want to answer questions put to you and actually think that complaining about your lack of precious time serves as an excuse....then you go ahead and waste more of that time NOT answering anyone's questions. You remind me of Doug only more verbose.

As I said, the information in those links will not answer my questions because what I want to know about is YOUR justification behind using these statistics for the purpose you have suggested. I don't think the statistics back up the points you're trying to make...although I notice you are now backpedaling to say "I just want the world to be a safer place!" You started this thread to criticize the USA and it is to late for you to back off that now. Answers, please.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM

Things like street layout and patterns of street use can make an enormous difference to how safe places feel. And then you get feedback from that - places that feel dangerous get more dangerous, because of the way people use them, and with places that feel safe it's the other way round.

Generalisations about a "place" as big as the USA are never going to have much force. Much more intriguing to work out why it is that within countries and regions some places throw up more violence than others, especially comparing places which superficially seem pretty similar.

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:57 AM

i>I think you'll find (though this is just a hunch) that
domestic violence is much less dependent on class than any other kind of crime. (Forum Lurker)

Than any other kind of crime? Of course, the incidence of violence is related to the educational level as has been found in more than one study. However, educational level (class) of the offender is not a very good predictor of violence Neither is nationality as the theme of this thread seems to indicate.

I'll tell you the two best statistical predictors of violence, by far:
(1) Sex of the offender
(2) Age of the offender

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:47 AM

YOu appear to have just contridicted your own thesis!

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM

UK homicide statistics

US Bureau of Justice Statistics on Violent Crime

StatsCan statistics on violent crime

According to the links above, there were on average just over 21,000 homicides per year in the US in the 1990's. This is about 0.0075% dead out of a population of approx. 280 million.

In Canada in 1999, there were 482 murders, in a population of 27 million - about 0.0021%.

And in the UK, there were 792 homicides in a population of approx. 58 million - about 0.0014%.

If my math is accurate, this shows that incidence of homicide in the US is just less than 4X the Canadian figures, and just over 5X the UK. Those are, again, quite "statistically significant" differences! I suspect that the differences have MUCH more to do with the accessibility of firearms in each country, as well as cultural expectations/acceptance of violence - and NOT anyone's individual personality traits!

And as I've stated before, my intention is to draw attention to these "national" differences in the hopes that as knowledge and understanding of them increase, changes will be made that will make the planet a safer place for all of us. I think that's plenty important enough to risk getting "roasted" here on Mudcat!

daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

I think I'll do a statistical collection on passive aggression in Canadian populations.

Seriously, daylia, I think the answer to your original question is "No". I have lived among Americans for four or five decades without any violence, although I have seen instances of aggression, petty theft, robbery. But statistically, the numbers you are choosing to make your case with, as far as I am concerned, are suspect. And I don't think you're addressing the questions being raised here.

But Hofstadter, whose overly-complex analsyes I have always respected mainly because I couldn't really understand them, makes a good point, except for one major flaw. The good point is that there is some disparity between our liberal pride in our national virtues, embracing liberty and free speech and all that, and the unwillingness to confront ugly situations which don't match that vision.

The big flaw is that you cannot anthropomorphize whole societies and hope to make accurate or useful statements.

Finally, I would offer that Hofstadter, Ira Leonard, and anyone else who cares to swim around in these overarching sociological generalities would find more gainful use of their time in proposing what they think should be done, rather than just waving their arms with large numbers -- or better still, doing it. Otherwise their just creating huge pictures of badness with no redeeming value in them.

A

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:22 AM

Peg if you don't want to read the links, and you're willing to pay me for my time to explain the information to you, I'll be happy to do that once I'm finished my term with my music students. They come first, of course.    Please PM me for my salary/hour and mailing address to send the cheque - unless of course you just want to argue. I triple my hourly fees to compensate for my aggravation in that case, and you'll have to wait until the more immediate needs of my other clients are met - perhaps by the fall.

;) daylia

Subject: RE: Violence is the American Way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:15 AM

It's pretty common to have references to war in a national anthem. "Soldiers are we" - Ireland; ""Aux armes, citoyens" - France; "Oh Lord our God arise, scatter her enemies" - Britain. And so on around the world - probably a minority of countries, but a sizeable minority.