BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?

Subject: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 12 May 03 - 12:42 PM

I work for an organization that provides training for degreed, licensed, State certified professionals. A while back, I pushed to get a co-worker/friend promoted to a supervisory position--we started working together and it became clear that she didn't know a lot of stuff that she should have known--One day she confessed that not only wasn't she licensed or certified, she didn't even have a college degree, and she'd faked her resume!

I managed to get her quietly transferred sideways into an area that didn't really require the professional credentials(same pay, though). I didn't see her much after that, and six months later, she quit.

A year later, I've heard that she has the same supervisory job, based on the same phony resume and credentials, plus her"experience" here and references from people who used worked here, but didn't know why she was transferred--

I am torn. Should I let someone know at her new employers(our company works with them, but not her department) or just let them find out themselves?

The place she works is very near a regular sing that I attend, and every time I go by it, I get a knot in my stomach--any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 May 03 - 12:45 PM

I don't really see why it should be any concern of yours any more...

But if anyone asks about her, do what yer consience tells you to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 May 03 - 12:48 PM

It would be easier to form an opinion if we knew a little more about the type of work involved. Is there any way you can tell us anymore. If this person is pretending to be a surgon or a nurse - by all means report it. If it's a hairdressing license we're talking about I wouldn't worry about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 03 - 12:48 PM

Unless whatever she does endangers life or limb of someone, I agree with Clinton.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 May 03 - 01:16 PM

I'd agree with everyone except I think it goes beyond life and limb. If her being in that position can do harm in any way to other people, I'd report it. Harm can be emotional or financial as well as physical. I'm not a big believer in needing credentials, as I know a lot of folks doing jobs better than their co-workers who are often better schooled or trained for the position. You seem to say that this is not the case here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: TIA
Date: 12 May 03 - 01:29 PM

Ratting on her doesn't seem right. However, what she is doing is definitely wrong. Perhaps you should tell her that you are aware of what she is doing and ask her to turn herself in or correct the situation. You don't have to pose it as a threat. By saying something, you've relieved your duty (unless there is some danger to life, limb, or well-being -- then you gotta rat).

I don't envy you. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 03 - 02:14 PM

If she doesn't know a lot of what she should know, how is she managing to do the job now? How did she do it before? Is the only way that people are aware of the deficiency when she tells them?

Is she putting other people in harms' way, or is she an impediment to something being done efficiently and legally? For example, is she training caseworkers who would evaluate life and death issues? Is she administering people who do that kind of training? How can she know what is and isn't being covered properly if she herself doesn't have the background?

Even if she is training people who license hairdressers, if you get a hairdresser who doesn't know their job or the health and safety factors involved, you have a problem on your hands.

Sounds like she's relying on your silence. Sounds like she's taking advantage of you. You helped her out of a difficulty once and she's right back in the thick of it someplace else. Do you suppose that if she gets into trouble she won't say "but so-and-so knew all about it" and drag down others with her? Sounds like a bad apple that needs to be culled. If you say something to her directly, would she take it as a threat? That could be difficult. The state agency that she is doing the training for should be notified, without tipping her off first.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 May 03 - 02:16 PM

Yeah, I would notify the licensing/certifying bodies from whom she is claiming to be endorsed, and maybe you can do that anonymously.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 03 - 02:23 PM

If you recast the question as: "Should I inform the company that their money is being taken under false pretenses?" the answer may become clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 May 03 - 02:53 PM

I agree with DougR. Wait a minute... I agree with DougR!!!! Now there's a rare occurrence!

Naw, seriously, everybody else has pretty much said what I would have said anyway, so I'll just offer this instead.

Human resource departments' failure to verify the information on resumes is apparently far more widespread than most people realize. At a college where I used to work the Dean of the Allied Health Department, a position only two steps down the hierarchy from President, was discovered to have faked almost his entire work and educational histories. The only degree he had was a two-year Registered Nursing degree. He pretended to have advanced degrees up to and including a Doctorate in Education. It was quite a local scandal and, as a follow-up, the local newspaper did an investigative report on the extent to which employers do or don't verify the educational and prior work claims of applicants. They found that many employers are willing to just take the applicants' words for it because it's too expensive and time consuming to confirm what they have put on their resumes. They may call an ex-employer or two, but they rarely verify educational claims. (The obvious exceptions would be medically-related jobs where the hospital, doctor's office or whatever could be held legally responsible for the actions of unqualified employees.) In Academia, it's considered a bit of an insult to even think about questioning the academic credentials that one claims to have. They also found that people do get fired for lying on their resumes far more often than many people realize. Employers usually make up some other reason for the dismissal because they don't want their own failure to verify facts in the first place made public.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:02 PM

Stilly,

You've got it pegged when you asked;
"For example, is she training caseworkers who would evaluate life and death issues? Is she administering people who do that kind of training? How can she know what is and isn't being covered properly if she herself doesn't have the background?

I don't want to be too specific,, but she is basically being put in charge of establishing the infrastructure for delivering a public health program in an area that hasn't had it before. It includes hiring personnel, training them, creating and administering the system for qualifying, screening, and treating clients, as well as doing the long term follow-up(without being too specific, this is a major health issue)--

In addition to the degrees and certifications, the job requires someone who is a self-starter and also very detail oriented--
When she was working with me, this woman nearly closed our office because she "forgot" to do the screening paperwork on a whole group of clients, many of whom turned out to be inelligible for the services we delivered to them.

And yes, this woman knows that I know--

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:06 PM

If the person has anything to do with health, safety or case work she should be reported immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:06 PM

If it wasn't clear, she is in charge of her office, and there is no one supervising her onsite--

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:17 PM

Get her out of there as fast as you can--she's going to get someone killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:17 PM

Personally, I would report her and tell her ahead of time that I was going to do it. But, then again, if I were nicer, I could be a bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:21 PM

Given the circumstances you have described, I would be a rat. As others have indicated here, I think the real question needs to be who will be affected and how?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 03 - 03:40 PM

Why tell her? She's not only behaving unethically and immorally, she's probably behaving illegally, if she's dealing with licensing. Why warn her? So she can quick duck out without consequences and turn up again somewhere else?

All it takes is one child dying because a poorly selected or trained caseworker can't figure out how to act and when to act and it will all come home to roost. Why let that child die? Why strangle the health care of people who must use this agency while she gets her on-the-job training? If she's lacking the bona fides to do the job, do you think she's out there mingling in the field with professionals who are exchanging ideas and learning from each other? No--she's trying not to be detected. She's hiding in plain sight. Drop the dime this afternoon, and put a hard copy in the mail, certified, return receipt requested, to the head of the department.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Guest - ET
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:26 PM

No matter what you do, some people will agree with your actions everyone will have an idea what you ought to have done (but only after the fact).

My question to you is - can you resolve this in a way that will take the onus off of you?   For instance, write to the dean of the college that supposedly issued the credentials.

Request a copy of their answer go to HR/personnel of the firm. That way, you're giving benefit of doubt, HR gets enough of a warning that they should check up on this person. You've set wheels in motion but you're out of the loop.

And hopefully your stomach quiets down. Gad it's miserable (been there but not since the late teen years when a dorm floor-mate was puffing illegal substances, thank goodness!) (One Zen bottle of Tums coming your way) ET

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 03 - 04:56 PM

A university won't respond to a request from an individual who has no authorization to request or receive the information. They also won't go out and do anything about someone claiming to have a degree from their institution. Like the Supreme Court, they wait for the proper occasion to respond, because confidential records (those they have and DON'T have) are called into question.

M. Incognito has to decide who the correct agency official is to send his/her information to, and probably find someone in the state attorney general's office (or similar law-enforcement agency) to send a carbon copy to, to avoid the first agency thinking they might conceal the fact that this woman shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

There may be no simple answer when a possible domino effect can happen once she is identified.

Sorry to seem so dogmatic about my answer, but my Mom, with an MSW, worked for a State Child Protective Services Department until she retired. I heard a lot of stories from within the agency when I was growing up.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 12 May 03 - 05:58 PM

I can't even get an address of a former classmate from my university unless I join the Alumni Association and get it from them (if he is a member). Your letter would go into the recycle bin.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 12 May 03 - 06:38 PM

I have a guiding rule that often helps me out of such spots: Never betray a confidence. I'm not clear whether she relayed information to you in confidence, or whether she was forced by circumstances (or somewhere in between.)

If she was a clinical care worker, this would be much easier. I will offend many, including the questioner, I think, by stating that I wouldn't worry so much about the professional competence of a health care administrator, degreed or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 12 May 03 - 06:40 PM

I should have said clinical care worker or CPS professional. Both of those would be easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: NicoleC
Date: 12 May 03 - 06:52 PM

As others have said, part of the equation has to be, "Does she do a good job." Half of the "requirements" for jobs are bogus; designed partly to prevent the company from being sued and partly to weed out the worst applicants.

It sounds like she *doesn't* do a good job, from what you said. It sounds like her incompetance is costing taxpayers money and preventing people from getting the services they need. And people who lie about these things really rub me the wrong way.

BUT -- if you are concerned about anonymity when making this accusation, I think you have your answer. In that case, you don't like it, but you aren't concerned enough to put your name to it.

Of course, you don't know for certain she faked her resume. She might have told you that to elicit sympathy to do part of her work for her. Any accusation you do make needs to be tempered with your uncertainty about the truth, and/or as a suggestion to verify her background. Otherwise you could be in hot water for making false accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 12 May 03 - 07:23 PM

If she were a nurse, doctor, psychologist, social worker, mental health counselor, marriage and family therapist, physical therapist, or supposedly qualified in some other health care profession and you knew the individual was working in the field but without proper credentials because you were also in the field and were properly credentialed, or because you worked for a company that re-certified such individuals with CEU's or for state or federal licenses, in america the answer is YES, you must report. But you can do it anonymously, to the appropriate state licensing board. Then it is on their shoulders. The answer is simplier than one would assume, in my view. harp

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: CET
Date: 12 May 03 - 07:23 PM

Incognito:

I don't think this person has any right to protection of anything she might have said in "confidence". I'm also not too concerned about the degree of harm she might cause in her new job. A cheat is a cheat. The fact that she seems to be in a position to do harm only makes it more important to turn her in.

You should go into this with your eyes open, though. How will your employers react if they find out that you knew she had faked her resume and didn't tell anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Tweed
Date: 12 May 03 - 07:52 PM

Why is this bothering you so McIncog? Have you informed co-workers of this thing that you were privy to after the woman left? I see no reason why you should interfere in this human being's desire to better herself and put food on her table. Do you? Really, now. It's not like you witnessed a murder or anything. If she does the job, shows up on time and takes exactly 30 minutes for lunch let her supervisor's discover their mistake if they choose to. Walk in her shoes and then do what is right. Unless of course she iz a weld inspector at a nuclear power plant. Otherwise yore okay and that's my opinion for what little weight it may carry.

Yerz,
Tweed

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 03 - 08:18 PM

Do IT!

Do it anonymously!

Employment is tight, it belongs to those who have the right.

Post the dirty linen, right here on the MC, and one of us will do it for you. Be creative!

I work with a program that recieves govt funding. We had hired for us a director (never had a director before but she had friend in a high place, who created the position and the friend left two months later.) This director's salary equals all of ours (six part-timers). On the first week she admited she knew nothing. Two years later the program is folding, she did not write the grants, proposals, contracts, or followup on two years of government reports and audits. We are almost happy to see the 25 year program fold because the lazy director will go with it. However, we are sad for the 200 to 500 children a year who once recieved jobs through the CETA, JTPA, and now WIA job training programs.

NEVER reward larceny, incompetance, or decete

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Tweed
Date: 12 May 03 - 08:30 PM

Yes, Why not!! Post it as an anonymous GUEST!! You'll feel so good inside. Nothing beats crushing a person's livelyhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 May 03 - 08:43 PM

Livelyhood that could harm others, Tweed?

Incognito needs good records of his/her own role in this, if there are any extant. Make copies of important documents that protect yourself and keep them in a safety deposit box. No one is suggesting that care not be taken when following through with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 May 03 - 10:03 PM

Aside from all the valid advice offered here, I think, Incognito, if you read your own input over again you already have your answer. You are not just uncomfortable about this, you are agonized enough to get a knot in your stomach, and your posts make it clear you feel this person is in a position to do real damage. Do what you think is right, with as much protection for yourself as you can muster. I think the suggestions about couching the whistle blowing in terms of questioning and doubt, rather than accusation are helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Cluin
Date: 12 May 03 - 11:10 PM

I'd say you had a golden opp. here to pick up a bit of extortion cash on the side. Play your cards right and you could spin the whole scenario out into a new reality series on one of the networks. They're obviously hurting for ideas right now. A bit more cashola in the pocketola, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 May 03 - 11:43 PM

I wouldn't use the word "rat," it is thieves' jargon. If the person is doing real harm, report her. If not, don't. You may know whether she is doing real harm; we have no way of telling, so our advice is really not too useful. But the idea of not "ratting" is a romanticised part of criminals' ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 13 May 03 - 01:56 AM

A word from the other side. Credentials are a peculiar thing. My business partner suggested that I claim a PhD on an proposal we are submitting for a service contract with a casino in Atlantic City. My response to him was that we have enough experience and he has enough paper that the proposal should be allowed to be handled on its merits. We may be up against some stiff competition but I have persuaded him that we do not need to put ourselves at risk for the sake of a contract. We are good enough that we can sell the concept sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Frug
Date: 13 May 03 - 03:42 AM

Whatever the pros and cons of credentials, what is really worrying is deceit. If someone is palpably not up to the job then it will eventually come to light. If a big mistake is made and there is an investigation then the question might be asked as to how that person ended up where they did. The trail could lead back to you........A defense that might be used could be "well so and so knew about it and thought it was alright/did nothing...." If this person has forged their own credentials might they not help others to forge theirs, it sounds as though they mat be in a position to do just that........Incognito you know what to do !

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 13 May 03 - 04:08 AM

Don't you have to show your credentials when applying for a job either in original or in certified copies? So it is over here.
When faked documents are shown, it is fraudulence - a crime which has to be prosecuted by the State's Attorney.
So let it be with her.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Helen
Date: 13 May 03 - 05:37 AM

In our region, just in the past couple of months, a scandal blew up with lots of media coverage about a manager who left a high paying job to become the even more highly paid General Manager (i.e. head honcho) of a large Sydney Local Council (i.e a local government council). He was accused of fraudulently claiming that he held specific degrees and qualifications.

The university he claimed to have degrees from was investigating the issue and I think that they reported it to the Independent Commission Against Corruption, which is the big scary Big-Brother organisation which keeps everyone on their toes here in Oz in cases of suspected foul play. Even the biggest politicians in the land are scared of ICAC.

I haven't heard the outcome of the investigation but the man never took up his new position because the new organisation was notified that there had been a lot of questions about his qualifications in his previous job.

In my opinion, this is a big issue and if I were in MC Incognito's place I would definitely be working out a way to alert both my current organisation and this woman's new employer, by casting doubts on the validity of her qualifications.

Two things provide the foundation for my belief in taking this action:

1) I teach subjects on Human Resource Management, Industrial Relations, Business, Management, Organisational Effectiveness etc, and I see the profound implications of this fraudulent behaviour in a lot of the processes and results which make an organisation effective. The organisation has a right to get what they pay for, and the right to expect a high level of service, and to expect to achieve the right outcomes from their employees. It is defrauding the organisation but also, more importantly, it is tainting the work of that organisation.

2) By finding a way to cast doubts on her qualifications, rather than becoming an outspoken "Whistle Blower" you will hopefully be avoiding a much worse possible consequence, which is that you could be bullied and victimised by the organisation for "pointing out their failures or incompetence". You need to protect yourself from the backlash.

Is there someone you trust absolutely in a higher position in the organisation who can discreetly raise the issue, either with your organisation or with the woman's new employer?   Or is there someone in the other organisation who can raise the questions there?

Either way, whatever you choose to do, you are going to be agonising over whether you did the right thing, so my suggestion is to be as objective as possible and go with the decision which you are able to live with. In my case, I would have to do what I considered to be the right thing, and I suspect that you may feel the same, but please, as we say in Oz "cover your own arse" and don't make yourself vulnerable in the process.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:30 AM

It is interesting here how many organizations only do cursory checks at best when hiring for positions that might well involve doing harm in some way.

When I went to work for Airtex as a rep, they wanted certified copies of everything from my birth certificate to my college transcripts, including even my high school records! They did drug tests, a physical exam by their docs, and a credit check. The parent company was UIS, a very conservative Fortune 500, but for the love of Pete, I was only peddling fuel and water pumps!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:55 AM

Helen is right - if you can find a way to bring this discrepancy to the attention of her managers (and unless she is CEO, there has to be one) without bringing attention to yourself, then do so.

One thing managers hate more than being wrong, is being proved wrong by an "underling".... been there, done that, had the tribunals, got the mental health problems to boot.


Having said that, in all conscience, there is only one way to go, and we'll always be here for support/sarcastic comments when the organic waste product hits the mechanised air-displacer.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 03 - 08:04 AM

"Rat"? Bad choice of word, as noted above. Should you expose this person's deceit and dishonesty? Of course. A no brainer.

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 03 - 08:07 AM

My business partner suggested that I claim a
PhD on an proposal...

yup- lie and cheat your way to success. The American way. I'd be looking for a new partner.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 May 03 - 08:35 AM

Let's revisit the question:
> I pushed to get a co-worker/friend promoted to a supervisory >position--we started working together and it became clear that she >didn't know a lot of stuff that she should have known--One day she >confessed that not only wasn't she licensed or certified, she didn't >even have a college degree, and she'd faked her resume!

>I managed to get her quietly transferred sideways into an area that >didn't really require the professional credentials.

Houston, YOU have a problem here. I just wonder: why are you asking us?   The answer, whatever it is, is in your gut. Only you understand the complexities of the situation. You obviously aren't comfortable with letting it ride, or this thread wouldn't exist.

If it was me, I would put aside questions of obligations to bureaucracies, and consider obligations to people involved, both employees and clients. If the worst thing she did was provide services to a bunch of people who needed them but were technically ineligible, that suggests a lack of political savvy but not exactly malfeasance. One suspects she won't slip up that way again, since making your organization vulnerable to a critical backlash is a surefire way to shorten your career.

If she was foolish enough to tell you she was faking your way through life, you're probably not the only one she told.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 13 May 03 - 08:55 AM

...I forgot to say that I believe this to be made up question because it is unlikely that people working for an organization that provides training to licensed, state certified, degreed people routinely hires unlicensed, uncertified, undegreed people to do the training. It doesn't work that way in these organizations in health care.   
      Credentials are always poneyed up in legitmate organizations. In fact, just to get referrals in my area of health care, I have to provide every kind of documentation available, including my vitae, state license, copies of transciprt, business licenses, malpractice cover sheet, national organization licenses, driver's license copy, W9, incorporation documention, full battery of questions about my (non-existent) feloney record, sign a contract with twenty pages of clauses in it, etc., etc, and most states require fingerprinting.
And what's with the "I pushed and then I managed" stuff? Come on, friend...cut the crap...What is our incognito mudcatter really up to?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 May 03 - 09:08 AM

I was the director of a hospital Human Resource program before I retired, and I have run across this sort of thing. Consider seriously the anonimity issue. Unless this person is your best friend in all the world and her friendship means everything to you (and I gather from what you have said that is not true), then name names (including yours), places, dates, locations, and so forth. An unsigned letter that basically says "Mary Sue doesn't have the bachelor's degree in underwater basket weaving that she needs for this job" realy won't get a lot of consideration.

The exception, and several people have mentioned this, is if the credentials indicate some sort of professional competency that is essential for the position. For example, if someone had come to us and said "Dr. Smith's medical degree is bogus" we would have jumped right on it, and probably put him/her in the medical library reading journals until the investigation was finished.

You said that she is basically being put in charge of establishing the infrastructure for delivering a public health program in an area that hasn't had it before. It includes hiring personnel, training them, creating and administering the system for qualifying, screening, and treating clients, as well as doing the long term follow-up. So, what she is doing is something like setting up a diabetics screening program in a critically medically-underserved area like an Indian reservation, without understanding the basics of public health? Get her the hell out of there!! Right now!! This is not a you and her issue; it can seriously effect the health and well-being of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Sam L
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:00 AM

If the work matters at all to anybody, you should report it and be done with it. Anybody includes people who work under this supervisor, or are better qualified for her job. So even if you are in a factory producing do-nothing toys for no one, I'd say report it. This person made you complicit in a fraud by telling you about it, and there really isn't a sane reason to let it pass. She shouldn't put more years into something that is that fragile, it'll wreck her worse the longer it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:55 AM

For those who wonder, this is not a made up question. My description may seem a little off kilter simply because I have tried to be vague enough not to give away the person, the organization, or the work involved. Even considering this, some of you have come eerily close to describing the real situation in your replies. I won't say who, though;-)

Some of you have picked up my ambivalence. Part of this has to do with the fact that there will probably be some sort of backlash at work, and dealing will take time away from my work, with no benefit to our organization.

Another part is that I feel like I made a couple of mistakes as a manager. First by giving a friend a position without doing the interviewing and evaluation that I would have given to any other applicant. Second, by trying to help her out of a difficult situation, I actually made it possible for her to go on with her deceptions.

Partly, I don't do anything because the organization that hired her should have checked her credentials(like I should have), and didn't. It is their responsibility to manage the program, not mine.

Most everyone agrees that I have an obligation to act if there is a real, clear danger to someone. This program is a prevention/early intervention program, and if it is properly set up and delivered, over a long period time lives may be saved, but a lot of things have to fall into place before it gets to that point, and one phone call from me isn't going to make it or break it.

It may be that I am mostly angry because I assumed that a friend had just made a mistake, and now I am finding out that it wasn't an isolated mistake, it was a pattern.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:04 AM

For those who wonder, this program was created at a State Unversity with private funding. They administer and over see it, but it is being delivered by private foundations through county and municipal infrastructures, and is underwritten through Federal funding. Could I have made that up? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:44 AM

You seem to bow be showing some fear of looking like an idiot yourself.....Let me help you out.

SCENARIO ONE: Someone else reports this or she screws up and the truth comes out. Either is likely. Your boss comes to you and asks if you knew about this. You have no good answer do you? If you say yes you knew and did nothing, of I were your boss, you'd go next! If you say you didn't know, then I as your boss figure you're incompetent as well as the other group, and I begin to formulate a plan for shuffling your ass out the door!

SCENARIO TWO: You report this and admit your own mistake. I (the boss) figure that you should have done a better job, but I want you on the payroll because you have just shown yourself honest and not afraid to admit your mistakes when you find them. I'll take 25 of you to the above two people anytime. Matter of fact, that level of honesty and admitting guilt is something a lot of managers look for.

Your choice........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Willie-O
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:52 AM

OK, so you didn't just give her a good recommendation, but actually hired her, on a basis of (no more mincing words) personal favouritism?

Wonder what the hell she was thinking of when she told all to you?

Yup, there will be a backlash if you report the situation. And if you report her anonymously, you will be reporting on yourself too, without giving yourself the benefit of being the whistleblower.

Again, it's your decision. But if you come clean on the whole thing, maybe you won't have that gnawing feeling. You might make a bunch more problems for yourself, but you'll be past the wondering what to do stage.   

Good luck.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:05 PM

My apologies for doubting you, MI. You do have a dilemma...you will certainly clear your conscience if you admit your own mistakes but the outcome might not be as good a one for you at Pat predicts. Good luck....hg

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:12 PM

Harpy, I quite agree that Scenario Two may be optimistic, but I will flat guarantee that Scenario One is balls on the money!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:24 PM

I agree with you, Pat with regard to Number One! I would not like to be in this person's shoes although I face down my own ethical goofs almost every day of my life! It's a painful process...Sometimes you pay dearly for these mistakes, and sometimes you don't. Once again, good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:29 PM

Incognito/a, the employer she works for now saw in her records that she worked for your company before and is assuming that you did the background check. Their mistake, but you set it up so they could make the assumption.

It's time to undo that damage.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:43 PM

Yikes! The problem grows thorns! That gnawing feeling is not concern, it's guilt and fear.

Let me add to Spaw's scenarios.

1) You don't tell anyway, and hope she doesn't get caught, because when she does, you are likely to get caught, too.

I'd say this is a slim hope. After all, she told YOU. Who says she won't tell again, maybe to someone who won't keep quiet? In this case, Spaw's SCENARIO #1, I agree, is spot on the money. You are fired and disgraced because of your unethical behavior. Your chances of getting another job in the industry are slim.

2) You tell. You might get fired for either having hired her in the first place or not firing her immediately when you found out. But, your chances of getting another job remain strong since you showed for all the optimisitc reasons Spaw outlined above.

Or, you could keep your job for those same optimistic reasons. You might be bypassed for promotions or raises or suffer other consequences on the job, all of which can be shaken off when you get a new job.

I think it's very likely this will come back to haunt you. By coming clean yourself, you may survive. And it you come clean to your boss including her current employment, s/he may be able to pursue her situation with the other company on a higher level, which could keep this from being a vendetta about YOU going after HER. She may still blame you for squealing, but I don't other people will.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:45 PM

Just so you know, I didn't hire this person from the outside--we became friends through working together, and she worked here before I did. She had been hired by someone who was long gone, and there had been several reorganizations, so my boss was   put in charge of her section, and he simply accepted that everyone had the background that they claimed.

When I found out, I did tell him. It was my choice as to how to deal with it, though, and everything was handled confidentially. No one outside the chain-of-command knew what happened.
As near as I can tell, she took advantage of this "confidentiality ". For a reference from our office, she apparently had the new employer contact a manager who had taken a leave of absence before her problem came up and so hadn't been told about what happened, and didn't know anything about her job performance.

I heard about this through the office grapevine.As always, there were a few people around who knew what was going on the whole time, but kept it quiet.

What was she thinking about when she told me? I don't have any idea at all. After she left, we discovered a lot of problems that she had been keeping under wraps. Maybe she had had enough and was just looking for a way out. If I knew then what I know now, I would have given it to here.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 May 03 - 12:58 PM

Ah. Sorry, didn't mean to pounce on the guilt thing. It sounds like you aren't to blame for any of this, but you are concerned anough about the subject to worry over it.

Which comes back to you not knowing for sure she really doesn't have those credentials. She might just be incompentant.

IMO, her current employer needs to have the opportunity to check out her background and take whatever measures they see fit. If you don't want to go public, maybe it can be handled through the executive grapevine. You pass the info on to the highest manager you have a relationship with. Most of these guys play golf together (or other suitable local ritual), and then the information can be discreetly passed to the other company. If she's innocent, at least her name isn't smeared in public. If she's not, it's really up to her current employer to decide what to do about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 May 03 - 01:11 PM

Wow, this 12:45 message adds a lot - this one is sure fun for all the rest of us, incognito. I guessed the first paragraph was the case, and am glad to see it.

Briefly, though, I would like to add another non-traditional viewpoint, regarding your last two sentences:

I have found in my now middle-aged existence after exposure to several varying types of office operations, including health care administration, that incompetences, disarry, and multitudes of people quietly or loudly trying to conceal their fears of disclosure is the norm, not the exception.

The point: having found her dirty laundry upon her departure does not weigh heavily into the equation.

Taking advantage of the confidentiality - I do believe the answer to your ethical dilemna is more likely to be found here than elsewhere. (And the undertone of resentment is palpable - HOWEVER, the appropriate corrective action, the RIGHT thing, is not to be confused with self-interest, except insofar as it helps you sleep at night.)

And I disagree (not claiming to be right, just wouldn't choose it myself) that you should feel responsible for the successor organization's failings. They can screw up this and many other things all by themselves, whether you were born or not.)

Undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Beccy
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:04 PM

Might I gently suggest that prior to making any decision on how to proceed that you make a quick consultation with a lawyer? Depending on what field, precisely, in which you are involved, this could bite you in the rear in a big way. I'd suggest you make it clear that you will be informing someone of the falsehood she committed and that you want to know the best way to proceed legally that will cover your hide.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Beccy

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 13 May 03 - 02:29 PM

I do know for a fact that she doesn't have any of the credentials that she claimed, because I had our HR officer check(belatedly). Interestingly enough, her oldest son will graduate from college next month and when I ran into papa at the mall a few days ago, he proudly told me that junior is the first in either family to do this. I was stunned by the implication, which is that he has no idea what she is doing.

Heric's points are sadly true, and I tend to be one of the first to point them out. As to my self-interest, practically, it is best served by leaving this all to unwind on its own(which it will). I think my ego wants to help it along a little

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 May 03 - 04:13 PM

Point of clarification: When I said your last two sentences, my screen wasn't showing your last paragraph. I was referring to these (three) sentences:

>>For a reference from our office, she apparently had the new employer contact a manager who had taken a leave of absence before her problem came up and so hadn't been told about what happened, and didn't know anything about her job performance.

I heard about this through the office grapevine.As always, there were a few people around who knew what was going on the whole time, but kept it quiet.<<

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 13 May 03 - 04:17 PM

Good Lord - No I didn't. My original comment was right, except that I should have said three sentences. My own incompetence amazes me daily. Go easy on her if you can. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 03 - 04:43 PM

And what is the general thinking around the office on this, among people who know what happened and/or worked with her? Was there no opportunity at the time a reference was given, or was no reference check done at all?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 13 May 03 - 06:21 PM

hmmmm, it appears as though from your last post, you don't believe you have an ethical dilemma. Now I understand a little better! an interesting variant on "cops and robbers."

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 13 May 03 - 09:58 PM

I don't think of it as a ethical dilemma--I am trying to figure out if this is really my business at this point in time, or if it is pettiness--and I am leaning toward thinking of it being pettiness about now--

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:34 PM

Hold the phone! Just because you are having feelings you consider petty right now does not mean you don't still have an ethical dilemma to confront.

Here's another way you might try, to get a clear view of it independent of the "petty" stuff... How do wish this had been handled by the person who employed her just before she joined your team? Did it serve your interest to inherit the result when someone else might have thought they were acting in their own interest? Was it OK with you that it "unwound on its own" through your organization? Did it unwind sufficiently to correct the problems that were caused?

I don't think you have to take responsibility for the whole world. But in the circles you move in, is it really in your interest to let this go around again within what amounts to a pretty small community? Will it eventually boil down to, "I wonder who was the last idiot she managed to fool?" or, "Who was the spineless idiot who passed this along to ME?" Are these people you need to get along with at some point down the road, and what would you hope for, from them, if they were in a situatiuon like this?

In the circles I move in, I could handle the issue with the right word dropped over a lunch with the right person. In fact it would be handled by people in our town with just a look, in response to the right comment from someone else. "Um, uh.... I can't comment on that, although I'd like to be able to say more...." That would be enough to give them a heads-up. And it would be considereed poor form if I had such an opportunity under similar circumstances, and let it pass, and let a member of our community get sh*t all over their shoes as a result.

Actually, I am dealing with a situation not too unlike yours, right now. What I decided to do was report that I had become aware of a problem, that I had discussed the matter with the individual about whom I had developed a concern, and during the course of this, as a friend, I had found myself recommending to the individual that she drop out of a process that would have led to quite a bit of authority being entrusted to her, at least until she cleared up the problems that would inevitably come to light in that process. When I reported this, I very carefully and deliberately did not disclose what the problem was-- I decided that the person I reported to could decide how much detail was necessary, how much knowledge he really wanted to have on record about the matter, and whether he wanted to ask me anything more. The result was that enough of a red flag was raised that others involved in that process were invited to keep a closer watch as it progressed. Maybe the individual will rethink, address the matters that need to be cleared up, and learn something that will help her in the long run, as well as anyone she would work with. I doubt it, but you never know what someone will make out of a second chance.

What I tried to do was assess how far my responsibility went, and who else in the larger situation had a responsibility, and what it was-- and then tried to fulfill my responsibility in such a way that they could reasonably fulfill theirs.

How far our responsibility goes, I think, is neatly summed up in this advice to parents of teenagers: When you see someone heading for an open manhole, and they clearly can see it, but are going that way anyway, that's on them. But if it's obvious that they do not see it at all, you holler, "Manhole ahead!" Then, if they choose to walk right into it, that's on them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:58 PM

Incognito, you're in danger of wallowing in self-pity. Clearly something needs to be done. Pull up your socks and make the call. Mudcat members have given you a lot of support and a lot of talking points. Now you have to act. Turn her in, get her out of that important job she shouldn't be entrusted with. And report back at a suitable time.

I wish you extremely good luck with this task. It is difficult; if someone else were feeding you the information I'd say something entirely different (remember Fred McMurray and Van Johnson in The Caine Mutiny?) You're acting on your information. To vacillate now is to put yourself in league with her.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 May 03 - 12:13 AM

Stilly - I believe this is the FIRST TIME you an I have ever agreed on any situation within the MudCat,,,,the left-eye and the right-eye ....are giving you clear vision.

It is now up to YOU to act...and to act NOW ...not a day later....and you CAN do it incognito.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 May 03 - 07:42 AM

So glad we could be of service. Lessee here......

You told your tale and got feedback which is what you wanted. It wasn't a matter of acting or not acting, you never intended to act. No, what you wanted was to see all the possible points of view so that you could rationalize them away. You had already made your mind up to do nothing, just wanted to be sure that you had a rationalization for every eventuality.....all your bases covered! I hope we didn't miss any because it seems you've now made the whole thing go away!

Always happy to help.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 12:49 PM

Still to respectfully disagree. Susan's approach is excellent, her own problem resolved brilliantly, and I don't see that she says action is mandatory.

One thing hit me this morning, and in line with what wysiwyg's post. Since when does someone get a job, especially a job of this nature, based on a blind application, as opposed to a personal contact within the organization?

And don't miss that that incognito's superior has responsibility here. The question, as I see it, relates to the details of how the successor entity did the reference check, and may have been duped. This is a matter for incognito's superior's to handle, by my vote, if I had a vote, which I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 01:08 PM

Although I don't like this true-life, way of the world, fact:

>>>In the circles I move in, I could handle the issue with the right word dropped over a lunch with the right person. <<<

This assumes the guilt of incognito's nemesis.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 May 03 - 01:40 PM

To clarify-- "The right word" would be a suggestion to take a fresh look at the person/situation, not an indictment or accusation. Literally, a word-- one word.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:07 PM

It sounds incredibly arrogant to me.

Spaw, ya 'spose? Same as some of the other *J* threads we've had?:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:12 PM

The questions that Susan raises are good ones (which should surprise Gargoyle enormously), the one about the manhole is especially apt.

For those of you who have never been involved in HR/personnel situations, you should understand that it is the responsibility of a prospective employer to check educational credentials, references, and employment history. At minimum, the prospective employer wants to talk to the supervisor at the current or last job.

The thing is that that for reasons of legal liability and confidentiality, the current employer often will say very little, other than to confirm that the person worked for them.

For instance, if the new employer had called me, I would not have been able to say anything about the problem we had with her, or with its resolution. If asked, I would have been able to give the positions she held, the amount of time she held the positions, and the job descriptions. After that, the prospective employer has to figure things out for themselves.

The thing is that the prospective employer never called our offices at all. In efffect, that is choosing to walk toward an open manhole without even giving anyone a chance to tell you what is ahead.

Just so you all understand, there is no "acceptable" way to convey this information if the prospective employer doesn't take the initiative to find it on their own. They chose not to do this for reasons of their own, and if anything hits the fan, their choice will be questioned.

People may ask why they didn't contact the references, but they won't ask why the references didn't contact them.

I guess that I assumed that part of admitting she did something wrong and accepting a transferred to a job she was qualified was the implication that she'd never do it again. I feel like I gave her the benefit of the doubt and used it as an opportunity to be dishonest again.

I realize that people have tended to think that I should go ahead and do what I feel like doing, but in the process of agreeing with me, no one has come up a way for me to come forward without looking like I am an outsider who is meddling.

Remember that this is is happening in a world of policies and procedures, and practically speaking, being ethically or morally right is less important than knowing the procedure and having the policy to back it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:21 PM

I don't think it was arrogant. I think she wanted to step in, having felt used, even though she was pretty sure she shouldn't. She wanted a push in favor of where her ego wanted to go, and owned up to that. What, we've been "used" by being forced to hang out in mudcat BS threads against our will, when we could have devoted that same time and energy to hanging around in different mudcat BS threads? ;) It's not like we're working up a sweat.

In fact, we may have persuaded incognito from talking trash, out of frustration, against her nemesis outside the proper channels.

"Mudcat BS does Good Day for Day"

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:23 PM

sorry, cross posted without seeing that you had spoken for yourself

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:29 PM

Although I don't know why you wrote this:

"For a reference from our office, she apparently had the new employer contact a manager who had taken a leave of absence before her problem came up and so hadn't been told about what happened, and didn't know anything about her job performance."

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 14 May 03 - 03:04 PM

To a great degree, you are right, Heric. Maybe I just needed to lay this all out and this was the only safe place to do it.

If Susan will pardon me for a moment, I must say that I almost said something to her along the lines of, well, maybe you are in a small community, but this is life in the big city. Really she is right though, and I have to remember that people and organizations that II work with on one thing today have a tendency to be back with something else tomorrow. And if I do something that is way out of line today, though it may not cost me my job, it can cause me trouble later, and when I least expect it. I have seen it happen often enough.

As for Pat and Kat, I think you read some things in that I didn't actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 14 May 03 - 03:14 PM

I am not sure what you mean. I was just mentioning that I was told that she used someone who had not been in our office for a long time as a reference, rather than giving the prospective employer either my name or our supervisor's name. Not really an important point, just another thing that seems a bit dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 03:37 PM

Oh, okay. It sent me off on a tangent becuase I thought the new employer had contacted the reference and was in possession of potentially misleading information becuase of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 May 03 - 03:42 PM

I was referring to this statement: In the circles I move in, I could handle the issue with the right word dropped over a lunch with the right person.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:10 PM

Sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 May 03 - 05:42 PM

"Circles I move in" = "what goes around, comes around."

I'm coming in a bit late on this, but since you're getting strong opinions for both rat and don't rat, I'd go for the easiest thing too. If she's able to DO the job and the lack of credentials doesn't hurt anyone, ain't no big deal. If she's not able to do the job, then she'll probably lose it. (Unless she works for the government, in which case, they'll promote her.)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:03 PM

ha! Jeri - you parallel my thinking. This is a university based public health intitative. That spells public university with training hospital. I think I could draw a PICTURE of incognito's nemesis and incognito may well need her for a reference! (kidding, just kidding.)

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:11 PM

So MI is a male and his friend was a female with whom he had an affair. He used her, she used him. He's angry because she out conned him or made him feel like a fool. Who cares? It's not worth talking about if you don't have any concern for the ethics, sweety. (Have I got it right now?) But I still like ya, in spite of your psychopathy...harpy

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:21 PM

Not even close, Harpy! But you made me laugh, and I do appreciate it! I am going to have to be careful about letting any more out than I have already, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:24 PM

...oh come one, MI... Admit I'm right. Are you afraid we'll figure out who you are? I already have! hahahahahaha

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Sam L
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:49 PM

Incog, be sure to log on with your mudcat name, and give yourself advise. Then take it.

It's very fine and says something good that you question your motives in considering doing the right thing. That means if you do the right thing, you don't get to feel good about it. Perfect. Do it. It's not about you feeling good. It's principle, and it does matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 May 03 - 07:00 PM

I bet you got a charge out of talking to her husband at the mall to, huh buddy? Come on, admit it! hahaha

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 03 - 12:39 AM

Harpy wanted to know how I would answer this question, since I'm a church-going guy and all that.

I worked as an investigator for the U.S. Office of Personnel Management for 25 year, doing background checks on applicants for sensitive jobs. Yes, people do falsify credentials and job experience and about everything that can be falsified (even gender - I nailed an Air Force colonel who took a Civil Service examination on behalf of his wife, and another man who took a test for his girlfriend). I always took a hard line on that sort of dishonesty. I figured that if people were paying for the work of somebody who had such-and-such credentials, then they sure as heck ought to have those credentials. Besides that, I saw lots of very capable people get turned down for jobs - and it seemed totally unfair for them to lose a job to somebody who got it dishonestly.

I wouldn't "rat" on a coworker for some sort of everyday weakness or mistake, or for minor infractions like stopping at the grocery store with a government car - but I sure as heck would turn them in for this sort of basic dishonesty.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 15 May 03 - 12:50 AM

MI, believe your gut. Call it in and you will sleep better even if the choice is less comfortable now. Once you have done that, read "The Peter Principle." It explains a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 May 03 - 10:42 AM

Our local courts just settled a case that somehow kept coming to mind as I've read through this thread.

A couple who have run a small business locally for about 25 years were sued for gross negligence for their hiring of an ex-convict.

They would have lost their business had they lost this case, as there is no way they could have paid the "damages" that were demanded, and probably would have been awarded.

It seems that the ex-con told them he was arrested for assault for defending his sister from some fellow that was trying to beat her.

The case could well have been lost had it not come out in the trial that the caseworker, from whom they requested verification had "failed to respond," – probably in part because she "didn't want to rat on the guy." They never knew that the assault charge was for beating a woman from whom he was trying to steal a car. They also never were informed by the case worker that in addition to being on parole for the assault conviction, he was on probation for hitting another convict with a padlock hooked on the end of a belt, (in prison) resulting in loss of the other convict's eye – because the caseworker "didn't want to rat on him" and lose him the job?

It was also revealed that he had been caught having intercourse with a fellow employee, in a clients home, on the job; but the supervisor who was told about it "didn't want to rat on him," so he just switched the two to different work groups where they wouldn't be together on the job, and never told the owners.

When the guy attempted to rape another employee, he was fired – this being the first indication the owners had that he "had some serious problems." – because nobody wanted to "rat on him."

About 4 days after he was fired, he returned to a clients home where he had worked, gained entry by pretending to be checking on the job, and murdered her.

Sorry. Just keeps popping back to mind. – Nobody wanted to rat on him?????

John

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 May 03 - 01:39 PM

Joe: The title of the thread is misleading. Incognito DID rat on the liar when the liar was a coworker. Then the cogs kept turning.

The question now is whether incognito should take it upon herself to rat on a person at a different place of employment, outside the chain of command of her own entity.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 15 May 03 - 01:41 PM

actually the title isn't misleading, is it. Point remains.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 May 03 - 03:56 AM

Fully understood, Dan. I was representing the U.S. Government, a prospective employer - every day, I had to coax previous employers to tell me about their problems with past employees who had applied for government jobs. Many employers were scared to death of retribution - and I couldn't use the information they gave me unless they agreed to let the applicant see their name and what they said.

It's a two-edged sword. If you do the right thing and tell the truth, you open yourself to liability - but I still think you should do the right thing.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Micca
Date: 16 May 03 - 06:43 AM

2 cents for what its worth, I have been involved in investigations where safety issues around competence and qualification of staff were involved. Very early questions asked by the investigators when checking liabilty of the employer and the line management of the individual were
" Did you Know?"
"What did you do?"
If the answer to 1 was no, then " why not, you had line manager responsibilty?" if yes see question 2
and to 2,"did you pass the problem upwards, formally or informally, if not why not?" if the answer is "Nothing" you may be found negilgent and in H&S cases find yourself legally liable (under UK H&S law)
You ,as a manger, have to be SEEN to have acted correctly within the guidelines provided by your employer and also by the legislation.
In this case while the person was in your employ you passed it to your line manager , and exonerated yourself, it then became the LMs problem.
But if there is a "system failure" at their new job, because your "company" gave them a "good Reference" (to get rid of them?) I am sorry but you may be liable and your Line manager, for KNOWING the person was a fraud and doing nothing. The sooner you put the record straight the better, you could plead that the significance of the events and the lack of action by superiors has only just become clear to you, but if this person causes injury or damage to someone else, YOU are at least partially to blame.
" For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do Nothing"

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: GUEST,Mudcatter Incognito
Date: 16 May 03 - 01:36 PM

Micca,

Just to make sure you understand, no one from the new employer ever contacted our office, our HR, or either me, or my boss for any information on this person. The one person that we believe that they did contacted is in school in another state, and has not been on staff(or even in touch) with us for a long time.

Also, to clarify, people in positions we are talking do not actually deliver services, they are administrators who are not formally regulated, but since they supervise and work with professionals, it is expected that are from the ranks of the professionals.

I am reading and re-reading everything folks have said, and seriously considering every thing that has been posted. Before I go any farther, you have convinced me that I should set everything down and discuss my options and obligations with an attorney.

Micca has pointed out that " you could plead that the significance of the events and the lack of action by superiors has only just become clear to you, but if this person causes injury or damage to someone else, YOU are at least partially to blame."

Well, I am not in a position where I have to plead a case of any sort at this time, and, whatever I do, I don't want to set myself up to be seeming to accept liability.

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 May 03 - 01:59 PM

Attorney-- VERY good idea, especially now that it seems you have input from all sides and that your own thinking has been somewhat clarified by some venting and so forth.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Blues=Life
Date: 16 May 03 - 11:28 PM

Re: references. We hardly even bother with them anymore. All you can expect is confirmation that the applicant DID have the position they claim they did. NOTHING ELSE! No one gives a bad reference anymore, because you can be held liable for what you say. So much for the truth. So we don't even bother with them unless the person is someone you know (it's a small industry.)
Besides, what applicant gives a reference who's going to bad-mouth them?

Subject: RE: BS: Should I Rat on Former Co-Worker?
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 03 - 07:33 PM

Don't forget this person is proceeding to live under false pretenses.

Why not get the turth on the table? As discreetly as possible, using whatever back channels will do it the most smoothly, but, yes.

A