BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President

Subject: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 07:37 PM

Well, we've had Kerry and Dennis the Menace, why not throw Dean into the mix? I wasn't going to start this but I have just heard that the good Doctor Dean will be on Meet the Press tomorrow with Tim " Dyed-in-the-Wool-Bushite" Russert and figgures this would be a good time to throw his name into the ring.

Well, I'll say that this Green is leanin' Dean just 'cause he represents a decent chance of beating Bush. We Green are probably gonna defect in '04 becuase of the total repulsiveness of the policies of the BUsh administration, but should the Dem's win, we'll regroup in '08 if you all ain't learned yer lesson.

(I do not speak for the Greeen Party but just as one member of it. Other Greeens may have other opinions on the '04 election...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: John Hindsill
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 07:44 PM

The 2nd Coming will happen first!

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM

Well, Joh, I respect a man who is willing to but his entire John Henry withsuch a statement. While I agree with you, starnger thaings ahve happened. The last two Dems elected president came in as long shot former governors....

There's is something to that formula... that works for the Dems... and Repubs fir that matter since Bush II and Reagun were also former governors. These folks seem to just be able to catch people's imagination. (Well, not Bush II as much since he lost the election and needed his daddy's appointees to intervene in the democratic process.)

Don't count Dean out. He is pro-guns (which I ain't) and could use that to carry a couple of upper south states...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 08:01 PM

It could also carry The West, but Bobert -- who the heck is Howard Dean?
I really don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: John Hindsill
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 08:09 PM

We'll disagree on Dubya, 'nuff said.

With regard to the election of Pres. Clinton [once president always president...not 'former' president] many circumstances occurred to give us that man. George HW Bush was so popular that the expected, normative candidates dropped out because they did not want to be perceived as losers for a future run, so that Clinton won the primaries. By the time of the convention, President Bush's popularity had waned, but it was too late ...Mr. Clinton had sewn up the nomination.

As an aside, I feel the current primary system has generally given the nation an inferior choice of candidates from both parties. I much prefer the old work-your-way-up-in-the-party convention nominations, and I remember elections back to 1948. Sometimes it actually took multiple ballots to pick a nominee!

The other circumstance that gave us the Clinton presidency, of course, was that rich egotist, Ross Perot.

The heck with folk music...let's talk politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 08:21 PM

I know nothing about him, but here's his official website.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 08:46 PM

Well, John, I like yer idea of work-yer-way-up but , unfortuantely that can't ever happen again. The times have changed so drasticly that those days won't be comin' 'round again. I remember, as a kid, seein' actual debates on black and white TV and folks just being themselves about how they felt about one issue or another. No more. Pr and spinfolk run the show and the candidates tend to be no much mor than rival toothpastes or soap products.

Then we end up with the current guy who bungles everything he touches but the admen fix one after another and tell us that if we love our counrty that we had *better* support.... drumroll... "The President"! Oh, what a crock. But the average American has been dumbed down sufficiently to at least humm along with the company line and the beat goes on....

Nevermind. Ol' Bobert just gets a little mist eyed thinkin' of the days when politicans had to face their constituants and at least try to BS 'em without a team of PR folks pulling every string and writin' every line..

Sniff.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: John Hindsill
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 08:52 PM

Bobert, I can't believe you just insulted toothpaste and soap products. At least those things are functional-----;.)

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 09:00 PM

LOL, my friend.... Wouldn't want my Crest toothpast tasting like.... ahhhhh.... nevermind....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Midchuck
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 09:17 PM

Dean's had the radish.

His kid got busted as an accomplice to burglary a day or two ago.

He's taken off from the campaign to deal with that.

Doubt his status as a serious prospect can survive that happening right now.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 09:36 PM

Politics, Bleecccckkkk. I hates the stuff, but I still has to vote for Sumbunny..........WHO is the Big Quetion...

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jun 03 - 09:43 PM

George HW Bush was so popular that the expected, normative candidates dropped out because they did not want to be perceived as losers for a future run, so that Clinton won the primaries. By the time of the convention, President Bush's popularity had waned, but it was too late ...Mr. Clinton had sewn up the nomination.

John Hindsill, I don't quite follow... Since Clinton and GHWB were of different parties, in what way did Clinton 'sew up' the nomination so that no Republicans could run against him?

(And of course, GHWB's popularity did a bit more than "wane"- it plummeted, a circumstance GWB is trying mightily not to repeat.)

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: John Hindsill
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 01:52 PM

Touche, Ebbie. In my haste [the Missus] was trying to pry me away from this machine to go out] I was not clear. Read "...the expected, normative Democrats dropped out..." and "Mr. Clinton had sewn up the Democrat nomination."

There, I think that clears that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: GUEST,Sammy
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 02:16 PM

I don't think you are accurately remembering the 1992 election campaign John Hindsill. As the primary season began, Clinton was not the favored candidate. If any candidate was favored at that stage, it was Mario Cuomo, who garnered the majority of coverage of all Dem candidates leading into the primary season in 1991/92. Paul Tsongas also made very strong impressions on the media, the Dem leadership, and the rank and file. Bob Kerrey and Jerry Brown were also in the running at that time, though they weren't perceived as being as strong as Cuomo, Tsongas, or Clinton.

Clinton was receiving a lot of attention for all the wrong reasons (the Flowers affair, his lack of military service and protesting the Vietnam War while at Oxford, etc). However, that attention did allow him to get HIS message out, which was essentially the same as Bush I's, which was that he said he would cut taxes. No other Democratic candidate said he would cut taxes in the 1992 election campaign.

The reason why Bush I was viewed so negatively, and why he subsequently lost the election, wasn't just because of the economy, as today's pundits keep suggesting. The reason he was viewed negatively was "The Vision Thing". It became clear that Bush I had no clear idea of where he was steering the nation. That leadership lack, when combined with recession, is what defeated Bush. Clinton was only the candidate who looked, walked, talked and quacked like a Southern Republican. And that is why he won.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: GUEST,Sammy
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 02:20 PM

And BTW, Dean's problems with his son are really not serious at all, compared to the problems Bill Clinton had during the 1992 campaign, so I wouldn't write him off quite so quickly. Dean was dead on with his remarks, and his actions. He said his son made a bad decision and stupid mistake, which isn't all that unusual for 17 year olds. He also got on a plane to go home and be with his family--also the right call. So, unless there are other serious problems with this kid, this isn't even really a bleep on the radar. Too many Americans have and are raising teenagers. If anything, it will gain him a good amount of empathy from those parents who have been there with their own kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 03:04 PM

Now, GUEST, I have no memory of Clinton saying he would cut taxes. Maybe my memory is getting faint. It may be that at some point he said that. But he surely did not say it after Perot got into the election and pointed out that the national deficit was out of control. I do recall Cinton saying that he would not increase taxes on the middle class. And he didn't. If you can point me to a news source that says Clinton ran on a program of cutting taxes, I'll eat my words. But darned if I recall anything of the kind.

I do not know exactly how southern republicans look like, walk, or quack. To me a Republican looks just about the same as a (white) Democrat. Maybe thats because I don't have a television. Clinton sometimes did undignified things, but I refuse to believe that he "quacked," or made funny animal noises of any kind, at least in public.

But if you think Clinton talked like a "Southern Republican," you are just not up on the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 03:17 PM

The only Democratic candidate to stand a chance will be the one who offers a a solid progressive platform and a genuine alternative to Bush and his Merry Men. A stark contrast rather than a wimpy attempt to keep a foot in both camps.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: GUEST,Sammy
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 03:58 PM

toadfrog, here is my source of information on Clinton's tax positions in 91/92 is the Center for Media and Public Affairs website. The article I cite from can be found here:

http://www.cmpa.com/Mediamon/mm0292.htm

If you scroll down to where the blue link says "Return to CMPA Home Page" and look to the right, you will see the cite. It says:

"Taxes were the second most frequently featured issue area (32 stories). Sixty-three sources, mainly the candidates, debated tax policy. A strong majority (65%), led by George Bush and Bill Clinton, called for cutting taxes. Only 13 percent called for higher taxes; the other 22 percent argued for leaving tax rates alone."

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Alice
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:26 PM

I've been following Dean as a possible candidate for quite some time. So far, he would get my vote. I hope he makes it.

What I've seen of him in a nutshell: Howard Dean, M.D., Governor of Vermont, Democrat, balanced state budgets, made health care coverage available to 99% of the children and 90% of the adults in his state, controlled spending in Vermont so they do not have the fiscal problems many states now have, strong on defense against terrorism, but also strong on civil liberties. Any Mudcatters from Vermont care to give us their point of view? I'm interested.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Leo Condie
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 04:34 PM

If America turned into Vermont, I might even be tempted to give it a visit!

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: maire-aine
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 05:43 PM

I saw him on Meet the Press this morning. I think he certainly held up to Tim Russerts obnoxious questions. He's got potential.

Maryanne in Michigan

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: bigchuck
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 05:53 PM

Well, I'm not only a Vermonter but have also had the opportunity to participate in a couple of meetings with him. (Also sat with him at a Senior luncheon a few years back.) He's actually a pretty interesting guy to watch at work. While he is very good at blowing his own horn, he is also pretty common-sense and unduplicitous. He has a very real temper, is genuinely passionate about his issues, and shoots from the hip enough so that you generally have a good idea of where he stands. His accomplishments, while spun favorably, are real... he got a lot of his ideas and programs acted on in a state with a _lot_ of contentious people. In the process, he left us in a strong fiscal position compared to most states, and I suspect could have remained governor until the last trump if he'd wanted too. Since hitting the national stage his rhetoric has gotten a lot more openly leftist and aggressive than it used to be but I expect his core beliefs are unchanged. He's always seemed to me to be very pragmatic and somewhat conservative fiscally and progressive in his approach to social problems. He is intelligent and thinks well on his feet and will not go out his way to avoid a fight. Could be a very interesting candidate, I think.

Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 03 - 07:13 PM

This page: http://moveon.org/pac/cands/dean.html offers a couple of statements from him which I find appealing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Frankham
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 08:45 AM

Sandy, I agree that Dean would be intersting. Whoever it is has to stand up to Bush and make the public see what damage Bush has done. Can Dean do it?

I think Kerry might be able to. His resume.

It's the same old problem. Getting elected is a different job than running the country. It's like actors who do well at auditions, get the job and then once in the role, it's not so good.

Electing is like selling. Governing is an executive's job.

Can Dean sell it? Probably Kucinich, Dean or Kerry could run the country better than Bush. So could've Nader or Gore.

Lieberman is probably pro-Sharon. Bush-lite

Gephardt is Bush-lite. He would be a bad choice for the Dem Party.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Peg
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 10:38 AM

Where does Dean stand on reproductive rights? Same sex marriage?

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 02:46 PM

Writing approx. 11:00 a.m., Pacific Daylight Time.

I just watched Howard Dean's speech in Burlington, Vermont announcing his candidacy on CSPAN. (It is interesting to note that at this particular moment, all four cable news channels, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, and, of course, Fox News, chose instead to telecast a speech given by George W. Bush at a 2003 Biotechnology Convention luncheon. We'll see how much coverage Dean's announcement will get on the evening news.)

From what I've seen and heard so far, Howard Dean looks pretty good. He laid it on the line and he minced no words. And I liked what he said very much. But it remains to be seen.

Sometimes you can tell a great deal about a candidate by looking at those who oppose him or her. In a little moseying around the internet I learned that a group called "the Democratic Leadership Council" opposes Howard Dean.

The Democratic Leadership Council advocates moving the whole Democratic Party to the right, so that they will be indistinguishable from Republicans. They have been the ones pretty much picking candidates and platforms for the Democrats within recent years. To me, this goes along way toward explaining why the Democratic Party keeps oozing toward the right, until your choice between Democratic and Republican candidates is the choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledumber. No real alternatives. Basically what the DLC maintains will win elections for Democrats is for them to say, "Look, folks! We're just like the Republicans, only maybe perhaps not quite as much." Translation: if you have a solid set of principles and you take a firm stand in support of those principles, you might offend someone and lose their vote—so divest yourself of your backbone, become a jellyfish, and hope for the best. I leave it to you to determine how successful this policy has been in offering good candidates to chose from.

Rev. Jesse Jackson calls the DLC "Democrats for the Leisure Class." And years ago, Harry Truman said, "When voters are given a choice between voting for a Republican, or a Democrat who acts like a Republican, they'll vote for the Republican every time." In my opinion, the Democratic Leadership Council is the very epitome of the spineless, unprincipled attitude that has rendered the Democratic Party pointless and gutless within recent years. People like the DLC are exactly what is currently wrong with the Democratic Party.

I have posted this link before, but it merits being posted many times until a sufficiently large number of people have read it and are motivated to act on it. It's an article by Thom Hartmann, entitled "How to Take Back America." In it, Hartmann gives a historical perspective on how the right-wing neo-Conservatives gained power in the first place, why, in the American political system, third parties do more harm than good to the causes they represent, and what people need to do if they are genuinely concerned about the future of this country and where it is going. Printed out, it runs about four single-spaced typewritten pages, but it is well worth your time to read and absorb--and act on.   

From what I have seen so far, Howard Dean is on my short list. I know very little about Dennis Kucinich, but I'm reading up on him, and so far, he sounds good, too. Also on my short list.

Don Firth

P.S: Speaking of third parties, and with all due respect to Ralph Nader, I thought that the person in the crowd among all the Dean signs who held up the big yellow Nader sign and kept jockeying for position in front of the cameras was really tacky. This was Dean's announcement, after all, and this sleazy attempt to horn in can't do Nader any good.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 03 - 08:47 PM

Well, Maryanne in Michigan, I saw the Attempted Tim Russert ambush also and was impressed with Dean's ability to fight in the trenches against the NBC neocons who had laid the boobie traps well.

I loved the part where Russert askes Dean just how many folks are in uniform and Dean says "I'm not sure of the exact number..."

Only to have Right-Winged-Russert interupt him with, ""Well, if you think you can be President you have to know that (blah, blah, huff-n-friggin-puff blah) and Dean shot back..

No, Tim, you are wrong! I am a candiate for the Presidency and when I'm President, I'll have good people around me to advise me on just how **many** tropps are in uniform. I also don't know that names of every ambassador, but when I'm Prresident...

I thought that exchange was off the charts. Russert looked like a kid who just wanted to stick his tongue out at Dean. Russert was visably pissed off. Tough! Who cares about Tim "John-Friggin-Birch" Russert. He's shown what he abnd his NBC crowd is all about. I think the Democratic Parta should boycott NBC abd all of its sponsors. That and Fox are nuthing but right winged muck rakers....

But good on Dean. He did good.

As fir me, I'm a Green fir Dean right now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 02:20 PM

Howard Dean has won the online primary at Moveon.org. A landslide victory with over 43.87% of the votes.
He's my man.


                      BRAUN
                                          7021
                                                 2.21%
                      DEAN
                                        139360
                                                 43.87%
                      EDWARDS
                                        10146
                                                 3.19%
                      GRAHAM
                                          7113
                                                 2.24%
                      KERRY
                                        49973
                                                 15.73%
                      KUCINICH
                                        76000
                                                 23.93%
                      GEPHARDT
                                          7755
                                                 2.44%
                      LIEBERMAN
                                          6095
                                                 1.92%
                      SHARPTON
                                          1677
                                                 0.53%
                      OTHER
                                          6121
                                                 1.93%
                      UNDECIDED
                                          6378
                                                 2.01%
                        
                                        317647
                                                 100.00%

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 09:43 PM

Hmmmm, looks like the progressives are startin' to get some support, at least in the moveon.org circle.

That's great. Maybe Dean will get the nomination, much to the displeasue of the DNC who want their folks to be more like Repubs.
Well, it would be nice to have some seeds planted that have now been wastin' away in the envelope for the last 20 or so years.

No, Dean can't win against Bush because Bush has had thre media in his back pocket going back well before the '00 debacle, but at least progressives woould get the danged microphone and Joe Sixpack would hear this stuff and so when the '06 midterms come around,a nd these seeds have grown, BANG!, the crookier of the crooks will have a shot fired accross the bow as they loose major congessional races. Dean can be the martyr that sets the stage for this to happen.

Like when was the last time a real *progressive* ahd the microphone? I think it was FDR.....

Green for Dean

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 11:07 PM

Oddly enough, it was McCain who was the progressive in the last presidential election.

Subject: RE: BS: Okay, Howard Dean for President
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 11:37 PM

Well, kinda, CarolC. On campaign reform, he *seemed* to be out front, but now we supposedly have that legislation only to find the PAC's have figgured out how to beat it and no one ever hears from McCain, who seems perfectly content to ride out his days as an co-sponser of a useless bill.

Nah. I'm sticken with FDR, and gonna further refine it to his first and second terms...

Lyndon Johnson almost makes me list of progressives execpt I've heard the tapes on radio of him and he was just trying to survoive the pressures of the 60's...

Bobert