BS: Abdication of parental responsibility

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:34 AM

Michelle I am sad for your daughter, and hope she finds enough strength of character to rise above this mindless venom. As for where kids learn the bad language, sadly in many cases it is at home, or at school, from their peers. Nor do I absolve the Rap, so called, culture from blame in that department.
Give her a hug from Scotland.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: LilyFestre
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:06 PM

John,

    I am inclined to agree with Brucie to a point about looking to the parents when the child's actions are offensive. Our daughter, who is black in a predominately white community, came home today with a note from her teacher. It seems a boy in her school has been harrassing her. She has said nothing until today. This boy (11 years old) has been calling her the "N" word, a prostitute, whore and slut. Why? Because she is friends with a girl who won't go out with this boy. I can't help but wonder where such kind of language is learned.

    Don't get me wrong....I know every kid has a mind of their own and sometimes they come up with something out of left field....but I think a majority of the time, they present what they see in life.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM

Thee's a big difference between stopping something happening by using whatever physical force is actually needed to do that, and getting into some kind of training-punishment ritual. Knocking a weapon out oif somebody's hands is not the same kind of thing as punishing that person for picking up the weapon, it's much more direct.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: LilyFestre
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:30 PM

Okay...I haven't read all the posts to this...just don't have the time. I would like to say that I agree with Ted.....I thought that those baby on board signs were great for paramedics. I've seen such signs on houses too so as to be able to locate a small child in case of fire.

As an insulin dependent diabetic, I have a sticker on the windshield of my car that is an alert for paramedics should I ever be in an accident or pass out from a sugar high/low. I also wear a medic-alert bracelet for the same reasons.

I don't mind the signs. If that's all we have to bitch about today, I'm thinking it's a pretty good day!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:05 PM

Yes, of course. But if a parent was responsible in the first place, their would not be a loaded gun for the child to pick up. Duh!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:45 PM

I think that we would all agree however that if a child picked up a loaded handgun and pointed it at it's own head with its finger on the trigger that we would rush to make sure that it never completed that lesson?

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM

42 - I agree entirely. Learning to problem-solve effectively means taking responsibility for their actions and behaviour. It also involves making decisions and learning to live with the results of those decisions. Choice is a good thing (most of the time) but knowing when it is a child's choice is the responsibility of the parent.

Too often parents think they have to "protect" their children from the logical consequences of their own actions or make excuses for them.

Exceptionally good parents also teach their children to set goals and the steps necessary to achieve them.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: 42
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

all the best intentions in the world, every child-rearing manual ever printed, all the advice received from friends, relations and total strangers can ever prepare anyone to be a parent. (that would be me)

   Healthy, self confident, psychologically well adjusted, caring, well educated, financially stable people can be terrible parents in some circumstances. Frustration,despair, anger... all words with which parents become familiar - along with joy, amazement and small miracles.

   Giving children the opportunity to recognize, at an early age, the fact that they have responsibility to themselves, the people they love and the planet on which they live to become independent seems to be a skill that is lacking in the frantic lifestyles of most of the children I encounter.

   Scheduled within an inch of their lives with sports, piano, ballet, endless hours in front of the televison, video games that make the hairs on the back of my neck shiver and dealing with family financial situations which demand the impossible from parents... most of these kids never make a decision. It's no wonder that when they are confronted with one they react poorly and with such limited problem solving skills. (God that sounds just like growing up in the seventies - minus the video games)

It seems I've gone off track a bit here but I'll try to drag it back. Kids who are given the chance to practice making decisons when they are young and allowed to live with their choices (without be bailed out or made excuses for) become more rational, involved, and independent and rarely need to be disciplined in any form - corporal or otherwise.

Ahhhhhh... worked (and works) for me anyway.
j

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM

So Brucie, does that mean when a child breaks the law jail his parent/s?
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:06 PM

When a child swears at his mother, slap the father.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM

I actually spanked my son once and it was the last resort. He kept banging his head on the plate glass window and watching it vibrate. I tried everything! He was too young to reason with. I blocked it off with a table. He found a chair. He'd even wait until I was out of sight to start doing it again. I was desperate. It was his first spanking. I dreaded it but it was for his personal safety. I still remember it in slow motion. He never banged his head again.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

Hear, hear John!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:38 AM

In most children's life there comes a moment when a smack is appropriate. A smack is different from a beating, I was beaten as a child, and still rememember and resent it. Smacking can be appropriate, and must be used appropriately, it should be the final, and not the first resort.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:04 AM

Actually I used to try to use passive law enforcement holds. These are specifically taught and used so that any pain that the detainee feels is being inflicted by themselves upon themselves due to their own actions and will stop if they just stop resisting. Didn't work.
Stamping the foot for me only worked on a dog that was trying to face me down. Unfortunately for me the neighbor of the owner thought I had kicked the dog.

I don't know what else to suggest here. I am against child abuse but I guess my definition is as different as a vegetarian's is to a true vegan. I'm also against animal cruelty but I don't think it's cruel to go fishing or hunting. Go figure.

Pax!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:54 PM

Smacking isn't a big deal, but it does provide a cover for stuff that is much worse. It doesn't tell a child anything - such as "that their behavior is not acceptable" - which can't be communicated without smacking.

But if you keep your eyes open around supermarkets you see plenty of examples of ways of dealing with kids that while not involving smackong a such are pretty disturbing. Yanking on the arms, shouting, cold hard anger.

Basically a smack is a way of saying "I am angry". Stamping the foot can sometimes be as effective for getting that across.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:22 PM

Amos,

Sometimes time out works, sometimes punishments such as getting a good taste of soap works.

I don't think that treating a child like a grown-up works. You can not bargain with a child. They want what they want, when they want it, and can see no reason at all that they should be denied. I have seen far too many parents with their youngsters in tow kicking and screaming and crying because mommy or daddy wouldn't get them what they wanted.

There are only a few ways of getting people to do what needs to be done. I have already said that appealing to their better selves doesn't work with children as they have a very short view of the world (it revolves around them).
That leaves reward or aversion. Reward is a good choice but it leaves you owing the child something (other than the loving they should already be getting)for every time they behave. Lets teach them all how to blackmail us! (My children only wanted more love when it was time for bed and they could delay going to bed by asking for hugs and kisses all around the house).

Aversion (spanking) lets them know that their behavior is not acceptable, will not be tolerated, and will be a bad experience for them. It is not revenge. It is not swift and righteous punishment.
It also seems to have worked well in that when my children were still of an age to throw tantrums a threat of a spanking was enough to elicit sober behavior.

By the way, a child who has never seen a sword will pick up a stick and whack his sister with it regardless of whether the parent "smacks" that child or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM

..they may even learn how to spell, too, with a bit of luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:55 PM

Couldn't agree more Freda, especially on the humour...not sure why that works but it does. I think they are somewhat confused by it and shocked into listening! Much easier to reason with them then, than when they are feeling humiliated and in pain.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM

well, while we're onto this subject, what about looking at the whole way a parent relates to a child? (apart from the physical punishment bit)

I'm thinking here of a woman i know who constantly told her children how naughty they were all the time. You guessed it, the kids became the most naughty, mischievous, wicked kids you could come across, revelling in their role.

We can easily destroy a child's self belief, confidence, goodness, by contantly demolishing them, comparing them negatively with someone else, telling them how useless they are etc.

What is so important is spending positive time with kids, making sure they are busy, developing themselves, engaged, following their talents and interests. And if they get that chance, they will be learning how to spend their time contructively, how to do things, how to amuse and develop themselves. and there wont be such a need to nag, whinge or slap, to pull them into line or modify their behaviour.

I'm not suggesting the sort of starry eyed "you're wonderful" response to a kid whose singing and is tone deaf. I'm talking about practical interests, and encouraging them with the things they like.

And humour, another way of getting a message through to kids. Dry jokes, irony, making a point. They get the message!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM

Rubbish it is NOT bullying to smack a child!!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM

I agree that there is a difference between smacking and hitting, but am grateful to have never relied on either to get my point across.

A situation hasn't got so out of control that me raising my hand has been the only course of action to take. But that is just my experience.

I would not try and discourage smackers from smacking, so long as they limit their hands to their own kids. But I certainly would not let a teacher or any other authority figure lay a finger on mine.

Personally I wouldn't want that on my conscience. I feel that as a 'reasonable rational adult', I should be able to defuse an argument without bullying, and that is how I see it, big person hurting little person is bullying.

Now saying all that, I do have sympathy for the mum who has just watched her child dash out onto a road without looking, and narrowly missed being hit by a bus, that is the situation where I am most likely to see smacking in the street, and it always seems borne out of shock and fright on the parents part. Touchwood that is one incident we have avoided so far.

I watched a girl from my daughter's class being heavily chastised once on a school outing, by her mother, she was dragged across a grassy area and given a heavy wallop when the mother thought she was out of sight. She was five years old and her crime...wanting to take her shoes off and paddle in a kids pool, that was full of children from her class doing exactly that. It came as no surprise when we later found out that the little girl in question was bullying other children in her playground,to the extent that the head teacher had to call her mother in for " a chat". Children learn by imitation.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM

CC:

I think you have exaggerated my meaning. I was talking about using the light form of discipline which makes it clear that 'if you engage in unwanted forms of communication, that doesn't have to be supported by others'. This takes five minutes of solitude to get across. I would have thought this would be clear from my addendum "but they have to be used with compassion. They can have ugly long-term consequences if they are used in excess". Sounds like you're talking about the excessive form.

So.. if you feel timeouts are used uselessly, what sort of control or discipline do you recommend for parents to manage children with? If any...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM

I love my children unconditionally. I limit/constrict and contr\oll them. I am at home when the go to school, I am there when they return. I have expectations and they meet most of them. I trust them, respect them and admire them. I do not exprect the sitter, a daycare, social services or public school to provide them with values.
   They are wonderful kids...but it is very hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

Amos,

What you are talking about is not the time out that is being used so uselessly throughout the world. You are talking about "shunning" as used by the Amish. This is far more destructive than any spanking. The inner city is full of kids wondering if anyone cares they are alive because daddy didn't stick around and Momma's too busy trying to keep the families head above water to pay them the attention they really deserve.
Time Out usually is a punishment that only lasts a short time and unfortunately does none of what you suggest. Especially in a world with such a short attention span.

Denying affinity, communication and denial of things that say "you are real" would get you booked with "Child abandonment and abuse" charges in almost any American city.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Sorry but hitting and smacking are not the same thing! Hitting implies physical abuse whereas a smack is not admimistered to cause pain but to remind a child that what they are doing is wrong and may be causing harm to themselves or others. If my kids over step the mark or refuse to listen to reason they get a smacked bottom - quite frankly I doubt if it hurts much at all but they stop what they are doing! By the time they are old enough to understand reasoning (probably not before seven) it is not necessary. And will my children become smackers - well I hope so!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:45 PM

I agree with you there, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM

Sure, Jock, but biblical or no, it's a crock. The issue is not training a child in pain aversion, but in inculcating a sense of compassionate control. That does not require violence in any form. I am willing to bet there are hundreds of thousands of children who were spared physical punsihment int heir childhood and tuend out better for it, and comparable numbers who were bent for the worse by it. I wish I had statistics to support this certainty with, though! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM

Can I be the first to bring in the biblical quote,'Spare the rod, and spoil the child'
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM

Hitting is no sort of solution at all. It's like borrowing -- all it does is defer the solution.

Denial of communication, denial of affinity, denial of the things that say "you are real" is what makes time-outs and similar disciplines painful and therefore effective, but they have to be used with compassion. They can have ugly long-term consequences if they are used in excess.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM

That's the problem with time out nowadays.
Send them to a room full of video games, their own TV, their own phone, their own computer, etc. etc.
It really didn't work all that well for me and all I had was a great imagination. If that wasn't working it was always a great nap time. Fully rested and ready to get into more mischief.

I'm sory to take such a contrary position on something like this as I really like kids and I have seen a few where discipline was well out of hand. But I have seen others that could have used a good kick in the ass that were "little angels" in thier mothers eyes that could be denied nothing and held accountable for nothing. Sometimes ignorance is worse than "violence".

My mother in law keeps telling my wife that she wishes she had never "laid a hand" on her while she was growing up. She never did so with my brother in law. My wife is the proud parent of two children, works in stained glass, neither smokes nor drinks and has never been in trouble with the law outside of a speeding ticket. My brother in law smokes, drinks, does weed, has excessive speeding tickets (quality and quantity there), nearly blew his face off with a home made explosive device, and had a friend killed while performing a chinese fire drill in his jeep (while the jeep was moving..it rolled over and the friend who was driving snapped his neck).

So I'm drawing on my personal experience in these cases instead of relying on someone else to tell me how to be a parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

Yes Freda, but you're also their Mother, it's when it's said in the sycophantic tones of a daughter/son which implies that friends is all they are, and the inconvenient parent thing has been shelved.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 11:32 AM

Children need to know what is socially acceptable and what isn't.
When my children were naughty, they were sent to their room until they got it together. Even though there were toys,books, etc in the room, they took it as a punishment. It worked. However, there were times (not many) when they were spanked. I can remember doing it to my youngest daughter twice, once when she was aged around 4-5, the other time when she was older.

however, before the punishment, they got an explanation and opportunity for them to right their behaviour without coercion. If that didnt work, it was off to the room.

Being an authority figure is a strain, and a pain in the neck. Now that my little darlings are in their 20s, we are friends. very good friends, and I dont think theres anything icky or irresponsible about that.

I am pleased with my children and the lives they are leading.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:19 AM

Dianavan. Yes yes yes. The trite phrase, 'My Mom, [and it's nearly always the Mother],is more like my best friend' turns my stomach. Like it or not there is a heirarchy in this world, and it's part of growing up, learning how the system works.
Remember the remark attributed to Mark Twain, amongst others,
'When I was 14, I could hardly stand my Father, didn't even want him around. By the time I had turned 21, I was amazed to find out how much the old boy had learnt in 7 years'
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:11 AM

Your right, there are more effective ways. First you explain the difference between a right and a privilege. Then you take away a privilege if they persist in doing something wrong. Its called logical consequences. They have to earn it back.

Too many parents want to be their kid's friend instead of their parent. They are afraid of denying them anything at all. Many kids are growing up believing that they are entitled to anything they want and that they have all the power. They also do not respect their parents.

Earning privileges works well.



d

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:13 PM

I agree with Chief on that. There are other things parents can do to their children with the best of intentions whch can be worse than hitting them. (That doesn't mean hitting them is a good idea or a very effective way of controlling situations or getting a message across.)

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM

Terry K -

Way to switch sides when you finally have seen the light! I have always felt that the "time-out" method was severely flawed myself. I agree that parents who employ this severely flawed child rearing practice just don't get it. After all we have for years in this great country had grown-up time out facilities where the most violent offendors spend years of their lives without learning anything at all (except how to prehaps avoid getting caught the next time and/or how to commit new crimes). I have heard, although I can't quote any studies or statistics, that their is a high rate of attrition. I wish parents would get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Terry K
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:39 AM

Exactly as you say Louise, and that's my whole point - many clearly "get it" while others clearly don't. Mine is just a gentle campaign to dissuade parents from using flawed child rearing practices just because they are ingrained in them because of their parents flawed practices, and so on.

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,Louise
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:46 PM

Looking back on my upbringing, I realize that I knew for every nanosecond of my existence that my parents loved me and would do whatever they could for my welfare. I believe that had a much greater impact on me than any flawed child rearing practices they used.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Scoville
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:08 PM

I often feel like I need a "Car-Sick Dog on Board" sticker for days when I have to take said dog somewhere so people understand that I'm not driving slowly just to be annoying.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

Re: "Smacking"

We need to clear up a few things here:

What consitutes "smacking"? A single "whop on the bottom", as was so eloquently mentioned above? A slap on the cheek, from the wrist? A beating with a belt? A full-arm-swing blow on the ear? Surely it's not meaningful to discuss the "statistical" quote above without knowing these things.

And, whatever that definition, then we have "parents who smacked"-- what does that mean in frequency terms? One incident in say thirteen years? (I wish I had that kind of reserve.) Occasional spankings with a hard hand? Daily beatings?

And what kind of teaching or admonishment went with the "smacking"? None at all? A soul-searching this-hurts-me-more-than-it-hurts-you talk, complete with sobs by the parent? A profane and/or belittling dressing-down?

And then the "recent survey": Who did it? What was the study plan? What were the qualifications of the surveyor?

The observation about the "statistics" of "smacking" and "going bad" is completely worthless.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:34 PM

Bumper Sticker: "Horn Don't Work; Watch for Finger"

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

But what you could conclude from that would be that drinking tea or coffee for breakfast does not prevent you from drunk driving.

In the same way, the logical conclusion from the remark Chief takes exception to is that it suggests that being smacked as a child does not prevent a child from "going wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM

...an analysis of the statement would lead any intelligent person to the conclusion that the reason that these children went "wrong" is because they were "smacked".

Noone with a glimmering of an understanding of logic would draw that conclusion from that statement.

"Most people who drink and drive have tea or coffee for breakfast." That is unquestionably true. However if somebody drew the conclusion from that that drinking tea or coffee for breakfast was the cause of drunk driving, they would not be properly categorised as "any intelligent person".

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

"And incidentally, "a recent survey" showed that most of the teenagers who "go wrong" were smacked by their parents when they were growing up." - your quote, not mine.

You're the one that brought that up and an analysis of the statement would lead any intelligent person to the conclusion that the reason that these children went "wrong" is because they were "smacked". This is the hypothesis that you postulated in your post. And yes it is an argument because you are now trying to back up your position by attacking my reposte. I mean nothing personal by this, I don't know you, but the above statement, without evidence to support the conclusions and without the corollary proving that the "smacking" is the determining factor between "going wrong" and "going right"(whatever that means).

"promote my voice against the fact that most parents still smack their children"

Do most parents still smack their children?

I don't want to sound like some others who post here and ask where you found that and what the actual numbers are, but that's a pretty broad brush there. And if your first statement and second statement are factual then their should be very few "children who have gone right".

"The rest of your post is more of the same tedious stuff trotted out by those who want to perpetuate something which is at best useless and at worst, wholly wrong."

I see that your mind is already closed on this subject where at least I am willing to point out the other side that there are good people who have been "smacked" and there are bad people who have never been "smacked". If you can provide me with concrete scientific evidence which supports your statements then I have been going about things entirely the wrong way and have some serious apologizing and thinking to do.

You feel and think that "smacking" (without defining the term) children is the major factor in them "going wrong". I beg to differ, without animosity, that getting a child's attention with a smack on the bum when they are doing something wrong can be (not "is" or "always is") instrumental in setting that child right. It is not the end of the lesson. It must be followed through with an explanation of why they got "smacked" and what the results could be if they continue their behavior.

Pain is the body's major defense and learning tool. Just try to hold your hand on a hot burner and see if the pain doesn't teach you anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM

It's not so much tat every generation exaggerates this thing. Rather its that every now and again it goes into reverse. I imagine that is probably going to happen in the next quarter century of so.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:13 PM

Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!
John

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:38 AM

Dianavan (somewhere back there) said, in part:

Haven't we heard this rant before? Kids nowadays have no respect...etc, blah, blah, blah. Every generation seems to think the younger generation is going to the dogs.

Three verses from a poem I read a long time ago:

Ugh, the caveman, in prehistoric bogs
Said, "The world is going to the dogs."

Great-Grandpa, in his house of logs
Said, "The world is going to the dogs."

There's just one thing I'll have to state:
The dogs have had a good long wait!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:20 AM

i beleive that martin's twin brother appears to be causing a bit of trouble tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:54 AM

Holy mackerel, Martin!

Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:20 AM

Has anybody told the children that they're not allowed to hit each other, or adults?
John