BS: while we argue about war & politics---

Subject: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:07 PM

I ought to wait before starting this, but the program I heard on PBS today just pushed my buttons again, and the subject is, in the long view, a lot more important than who runs Iraq or is President of the US. Yeah, it is low on most folks radar screens because it is like the proverbial 'boiling a frog' by raising the temperature of the pot very slowly.....when it DOES get too hot, it's too late!

It seems the Brazilian rainforest is still disappearing at an alarming rate, and the Brazilian govt. seems powerless (or unwilling) to take any action. This is merely the biggest in a set of scenarios all over the globe that have the potential to mess up the planet beyond easy repair. Similar things are happening in Malaysia, Borneo, Africa..etc...and beyond the loss of habitat, potential drug sources, and bio-diversity, it is fairly well demonstrated that rain forests..PARTICULARLY Brazil...affect climate all over the world. Weather in N. Africa is directly tied to rainfall in Brazil, and Brazilian farming & illegal logging is doing in an area the size of Connecticut every year!

If G.W. Bush had invaded Brazil instead of Iraq and told them "stop that!", I might just vote for him...well....maybe..

here is one small article ...I hope to find other relevant articles soon....and maybe there are others who already know of some.

I will be adding to this thread at various times with data, explanations both scientific and simplistic and dire predictions. I'm sure some will pooh-pooh this as another alarmist rant, and I admit that, at 65 now, I 'may' not be around to collect the bets against me...but those in their 50s and below just might wish they had lobbied their government harder someday!

I know that this sort of thing bores many folks on Mudcat, but we (yep....me included!) waste time and space on far less important stuff.

Lee's see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

Nothing like a bloody war to distract the people from the real issues.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

Bill D: I am impressed by people like you who are gettin' up there and still give a damn about this planet. Bravo. I don't know your motives, but I do know they are honourable. I love people who see their lives on Earth as a part of a continuing 'saga', and not the whole story. This is a good thread.

The school I teach in bought some rain forest a few years ago. It is indeed an important part of the weather factory for the world, to say nothing of the flora we are killing off at an alarming rate: plants that may contain the key to cures for terrible diseases, including aging. I am 56, and I have to care about this planet because when I die, I would like my children and students to inherit a place they can live and thrive in. So far, we ain't doin' so good. That alone is reason to fight the NWO and the multi-nationals. Good on you, man. Real good.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:22 PM

I guess the real question about all of this, Bill, is "Will it have any effect on business profits?" And the answer is probably yes. Maybe there will be a growth industry in items needed to survive in the Not So Brave New World. Weapons will be in great demand...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:26 PM

Yes, it's a huge problem with planet-wide implications. Global weather patterns are changing because of human actions, and not for the better. Expect droughts, crop failures and famine in some areas, devastating floods in others.

Elected (or selected) officials' life cycles are too short to cause them to care much about long-term developments. Hell, they don't even care that the oil is going to dry up, or that Social Security is going broke! They'll be long out of office when that happens...

"I may be going to hell in a bucket
But at least I'm enjoying the ride..." (John Perry Barlow)

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:28 PM

"Ya seen one redwood tree, you've seen 'um all." (Spiro Agnew)

Hey, some folks just don't care, Bill.

Ahhhhh, I ain't one of them folks but it seems that the folks who have the power to change things for the better... ahhhh, do the opposite.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:40 PM

my motives, brucie? Panic and shame and hope and concern and awe...etc. I wish I had done more for the last 20-30 years.

There are knowlegable folks working on it, but as the fellow on NPR said today, (paraphrased).."you can't just demand that a soverign nation do what YOU want.."

I am going to bed now and sleep on it...thanks for the start, folks..

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:08 PM

Hi Bill... read my comments on the Nader post... it agrees with what you say, refering to the melting of the Greenland ice pack. It is all connected, the Republicans and quite a few Democrates live in a dream world where everything will be fine... voting for Nader, however, will just put to rest any chance of changing things... but, your are right on that the environment is critical, however, it is also true that these wars are not only distractions, they are planned so that the US could continue to reep 3/4 of the worlds raw matterial out put and trash the planit.
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Franz S.
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:25 PM

Bobert, I think it was Reagan who said that, not Agnew. After all, there ain't many redwood trees in Maryland. Fewer and fewer even in California.

So one of the problems is that elected officials who do give a damn don't stay elected very long, unless they're in safe constituencies (not many of those elect ecofreaks). Until there is a constituency in the US and some other relatively wealthy and powerful nations for earth-friendly policies, there won't be many elected leaders championing them.
And the locals whose short-term survival (without which there is no long-term survival) requires things that aren't long-term good have got to have some real alternatives, not just nags from people who can afford to take a longer view.



And the locals whose short-term survival depends on

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM

Franz S. points out at least one part of the puzzle.
Anyone remotely concerned with the environment and its connections to each and every one of us is labeled an "eco-freak" or "tree hugger" or "eco-terrorist".

The second part of the puzzle is the prez. and his "fuzzy science" that proves black is white and up is down.

The third part is the idea that "we" the technologically advanced and financially well off countries don't have to assist the third world nations.

Part four is the ignorance of the other world leaders that would not admit that the first hurricane recorded off the coast of Brazil was actually a hurricane.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:47 AM

Duas tantum res anxius optat,
Panem et circenses

The people long eagerly for two things -
Bread and circuses.

                - Juvenal c. 6-140 C.E.)

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:03 AM

I think many Brazilians would say: clean up your own act first: you're wrecking the prairies. Imagine telling farmers out there to quit irrigating. Now rethink how difficult it will be to save the rainforest. The human race is going to be facing some harder times.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:23 AM

Bill D: I think we all can look at our lives and wish we'd done more to change the directions of stuff that happened. Truth is, we can't. I hope you know I wasn't questioning your motives--that was badly phrased. Another one of those things that can't be changed. However, it speaks well for our futures that some mature folk are giving this thing a second look. With honesty and maybe hope. Thanks, Bill, from my kids and me.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

"...voting for Nader, however, will just put to rest any chance of changing things"

Larry, you keep stating this as if it were a hard fact. It isn't fact, it is your opinion. Your opinion, like many others who share this particular opinion, is informed by your anger and frustration at George W. Bush getting into the White House in 2000. The facts don't support the conclusion that Bush getting the White House is Ralph Nader's fault, but it doesn't stop you from repeating it.

I believe it would be much more productive for dissaffected Democrats such as yourself to actually do something in support of the person you feel to be the best candidate for the job this year, instead of remaining fixed upon and obsessed with keeping the greatest myth of the 2000 election alive.

There is plenty of guilt and blame for environmental degradation to go around, and it doesn't simply lie on the doorstep of the Republican administrations. It also lies with the Clinton administration, the Carter administration, and with the Democratic Party establishment.

There is but one major cause of environmental degradation, and that is greed. Greed isn't influenced by one particular partisan ideology or the other. It is only concerned with how to best take advantage of the direction the political winds are blowing.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM

I don't think Bush WILL be the next President. There IS a God, and he and his ain't IT.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:06 PM

I think everyone in the world would be right to tell the US to come up with a Marshall-type plan to get Americans to build a mass transit infrastructure before the planet is dead.

Millions and millions and millions of cars, almost every one of them with but one person in them, driving to and fro to work in the US day after day, year after year, decade after decade.

It all adds up to a lot of things--American obesity, wars for oil, exploitation of the world's natural resources to make unsustainably produced products that are mostly useless junk, which gets thrown away into overflowing landfills that contaminate our water and soil...

It's great to be an American.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:09 PM

nawww, Brucie...I didn't take your 'motive' post badly....but it did give me an opening to put my emotional spin on it while I search for all the 'hard' facts. I really DID have a brief period in my life where I was immersed in all that, but it never developed as a career. I wonder if I could have endured dealing with bureaucratic stupidity and human disdain for common sense on a daily basis!

In one sense, it doesn't really matter on a cosmic scale, but we don't LIVE on a cosmic scale. We have this Planet Earth and I don't think NASA is gonna be making Mars available anytime soon.

One addition to my 'motives'...GREED! I am a woodworker who loves beautiful exotic woods, and if rampant illegal logging and deforestation would stop, I could have a better selection at cheaper prices for my tiny needs.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:18 PM

I'd much rather you get your exotic woods through sustainable harvest methods, than have it go to Weyerhauser through deforestation and clear cutting, slash and burn methods.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM

GUEST: Did you read what Bill D wrote? Jaysus, that's what he said.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:42 PM

Of course if Dubya were to invade Brazil, the first order of business would be to defoliate the rain forest in order to bomb more accurately.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:53 PM

And you know you are screwed when your bombs are smarter than your president.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:58 PM

Bill, you are absolutely right! Bravo!

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:25 PM

I tried to post this 3 times, but it didn't 'take' --that has happened lately

oh, I do avoid 'bad' lumber!...I never knowingly use ANY wood that was not cut from naturally fallen trees or is from an endandered species. Since I seldom use 'lumber', but only odd chunks for turning, it is easy to be reasonable....but places like Japan, who use hardwoods from places like Borneo for plywood for BUILDING FORMS, then throw it away, are defeating the best efforts

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:09 PM

I think it is great that you care enough to try to only use sustainably harvested wood. The thing is, for too long the conventional wisdom about sustainable use has been that because it isn't as profitable as the environmentally destructive harvest methods, that it can't be viable.

That isn't true. It is perfectly viable. We humans just have to change our consumption habits. If we don't, well...the alternative is pretty dire. Problem with the alternative is those of us who refuse to change our habits aren't going to be the ones who will live with those dire consequences, our future generations will suffer them instead.

Which means it is very difficult to make lazy ass people do anything differently. It is easy to lecture, scold, and blame the Republicans for something we are all guilty of doing.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

guess we'll have to seriously consider using Ovation type stringed instruments with phenolic fretboards until we can come up with some sustainably harvestable rosewood, ebony and mahogany, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM

The problem ion Brazil is that the people cutting down the forest don't know the use of the wood that they're cutting down. All they want is airable land to farm on. If they were educated about the possible pharmaceutical profit or other profit they would probably turn to harvesting the lumber in a responsible fashion rather than slash and burn to make minimally good farm land.

They wouldn't listen to us one way or another. And we can't even get our own Pres. to protect our own old growth forests. The only way anybody is going to stop the rainforest slaughter is if some exotic viral disease comes out and wipes out a great deal of the population along the forest line.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 06:58 PM

"...they would probably turn to harvesting the lumber in a responsible fashion..."
I really doubt that this would happen. Logging can be done be a very few people with big machines. Sure, a few might do something along these lines, but these people are burning in order to get in 2-3 years of farming before the VERY shallow topsoil is exhausted. The problem is only very partially education. The big problem is population and poverty, and it is much easier to allow poor people to go out and fend for themselves, rather than try to deal with them in already overcrowded cities.

Population is a problem in many places in the world, and is THE key to the whole situation....it's just that Brazil is a special case right now, as what is happening there has wider immediate consequences than overpopulation in, for example, Bangladesh. (Global consequences, that is)

....I am trying to think how to guide this train of thought, as it could easily turn into simple soapbox preaching about environmental issues in general...(overfishing, pollution, land use, pesticides...etc.) Granted, they ARE all interrelated, but trying to do justice to the whole morass in overwhelming. Perhaps other threads at other times.

Subject: RE: BS: while we argue about war & politics---
From: RichM
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:40 AM

Lead by example.

America,( as first nation among equals ) change the way YOUR society produces goods. Become users of sustainable processes.

Brazilians and others have less control over their economic processes than you do.

Bill, I sympathize with your suggestions for preserving precious wood. However,uing fallen trees as a source of wood is fine for hobbyists, but how many houses can you build that way?

There's no use preaching to third world countries about wasteful practices, till we in the 1st world show the way by example.

For instance, someone recently (on the internet, where else?) claimed that the amount of water used world wide to maintain golf courses, equals the minimum total volume required to service all basic human water requirements. Would you give up golf to benefit the world?

Rich McCarthy