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Pronunciation of Irish language
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Subject: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 03:55 AM Is there anyone who can advise me on pronunciation of Irish (Gaelic) either based on the old Irish script, or in Latin script. I just wish to be able to announce a couple of tunes from O'Niells, in the same way as I attempt to introduce Welsh tunes in my best (Englander/Saxon) Welsh. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Hrothgar Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:24 AM Pronounce it the way it's spelt. Now find somebody to explain how it's spelt .... |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Dáithí mag Fhionainn Date: 16 Jun 04 - 04:50 AM It's often said that the purpose of Irish spelling is to disguise the pronunciation! Your best bet would be to post the titles you're interested in, and I'm sure one of the many Irish speakers on Mudcat will give you a phonetic version. there are, of course, dialect differences to contend with too. (i originally learnt Munster Irish and am now concentrating on Donegal Irish) Adh mór! Dáithí |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Fiolar Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:28 AM Daithi: You must be mad. Pavane: For the old Irish script, try and get hold of Father Patrick Dineen's "Focloir Gaedilge agus Bearla" (Irish-English Dictionary) published by the Irish Texts Society, Dublin. ISBN is 1-870-16600-0. It gives a comprehensive guide on pronounciation using the old script, which incidentally I find easier than the modern one. Best of luck Fiolar |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:38 AM Thanks. Unfortunately, the examples I have are in the old script, which is difficult to post here, and I don't yet have a transliteration into the new! Maybe if I just post the English titles, someone could supply the Irish? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:39 AM E.g. 'Another Jig will do', 'Hunt the Hare' |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:45 AM It's not difficult to transpose the old script. If a letter has a dot on top of it, substitute the letter 'h' for the dot. Be careful distinguishing 'r' from 's' as they look rather similar in the old script. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,barry Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:53 AM Pavane If you want to make an attempt to put up the text of the tune title someone might know it. Otherwise put up the number from O'neill's and I'll look them up at home. I can put up the title in modern irish script and let the native speakers from the regions argue about pronunciation. I learned "Dublin Irish" and when as a student I went to Ran na Feirste in Donegal I thought I was in a foreign country - couldn't understand a word. It might be a day or two before I get back to you cos i dont have O'Neills with me at work. FYI - there are several old gaelic fonts available to download on the net - gailge2, gaelA, gaelB, etc.. Cant remember where I got them but google should find them for anyone interested. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:54 AM Perhaps my pronunciation guide will help Click here a few other aids as well are at the main page: Click here have fun! Conrad ------------------------------------------------ Links updated. JoeClone |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:58 AM Thanks Guest - but there are also letters which don't seem to match any latin letter - for example, one like an o but with a line at the top going left. And what about a C with a dot over it? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:03 AM Conrad, Yes there are some useful hints there. It looks like Eclipsis corresponds to what the Welsh have as Mutations? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:07 AM Pavane - try this. Wherever there is a dot over the letter - replace the dot with the letter h imediately after that letter. This is called a buailte and is used to alter/soften the pronunciation. The line over the letter is called a fada and is used to accentuate the vowel. You cant replace this in modrn text. Try writing the names using a h instead of dot and leave out the fadas for the moment. We might be able to do somthing for you. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:16 AM The Welsh have mutations? Dont know anything about welsh.... Glad you found the pages helpful. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,noddy Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM I though it was pronounced I-RISH Lang widge.? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:52 AM Would have heard it if I had Big Ears |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 08:59 AM Welsh mutations These occur when the mutated letter follows particular other letters Examples Coch = red (like Byrn Coch, where I live - which is Red Hill) Draig = dragon red dragon becomes y ddraig goch Other possibilities include B -> F ( as in Bach -> Fach (small)) C -> G -> Ng D -> dd (pron Th) Complicates the dictionary somewhat when the first letter of a word can change. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:13 AM much easier if you post the Irish as written, and tell us if there is a dot over any letter or a long mark over a vowel. The fadas aren't just really for emphasis, they do indeed change the pronunciation, just like long vowels in english are different from short. BASIC pronunciation, discounting regional dialects, and not getting into the broad and slender characteristics are: a - as u in up á - as aw in maw e - as e in bet é - as ei in reign i - as i in bit í - as ee in feel o - as u in up ó - as o in go u - as u in up ú - as oo in boot b - as in boy c - as in cat, ALWAYS a hard c d - as in door f - as in fit g - as in good h - as in hat l - as in luck m - as in Mary n - as in nut p - as in Paul r - as in rat s - as in sam or sham depending on vowels t - as in tip dots over certain consonants cause lenition or softening (lenience) bh - as v or w as in will or vwill ch - as in German ach, a gutteral sound, as in chutzpah dh - as in y in yell or silent, Gaelic was spelled Gaedhelic once fh - silent gh - as y mh - v or w ph - as f sh - silent th - silent another consonant change is called eclipsis, always pronounce the first letter in the combination co mb - as m gc - as g nd - as n bhf - as v bp - as b dt - as d hope this helps a bit, but give us the Irish, we'll help you pronounce it |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:23 AM correction, as I proof read too late!, in lenition or aspiration or séimhu (shay-voo) sh - as h in hat th - as h in hat OR silent at end of word in eclipsis or úrú (oo-roo) ng - as n I'm sure many will contradict what I have attempted, but as I said it is a rough guide! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:04 PM Bill, It is written in old script, so I can't post it directly I only really wanted one or two tune names for a gig. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Paranoid Android Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:37 PM I learned Irish in a Christian Brothers School. Fucking Great. If a word begins with Bh or Mh then you covert that to "W". If it begins with Th the T is lost and it begins with a "H". example "Ca bhuil tu ag dul? "= "Where are you going? "Phonetically sounds like "Caw will two egg dull? example 2 "An mhait leat bheith ar scoil?"="Do you like being at school?" Phonetically sounds like, "On wah lat veh er scull? I agree with the earlier suggestion from Dathai that you submit the titles of the songs you wish to perform and I (or some other late night Mudcatter) will "Transpose them to phonetic sounds for you. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM Well, I did post a couple already - see above, but in English. Need the Irish name first |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:10 AM You CAN transpose the titles to a modern font page 17 of O'Neill's 1001: Cluig Sean-duin (Shandon Bells) Aeridheacht na bPiobairi (The Piper's Picnic) Rogha Ui h-Artagain (Hartigan's Fancy) An Suiste Bhuide (The Yellow Flail) Triallta Chaitilin (Kitty's Rambles) I notice O'Neill doesn't include the elongation (accent) marks (Uí h-Artagáin, Chaitilí, etc); there are a number of ways to keyboard these - see the old thread on "The Fada in Irish Vowels" - or sometimes people write the awkward looking Ui/ h-Artaga/in, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 18 Jun 04 - 06:54 AM Well, yes, if you know the rules! Number 433, page 85, Hunting the Hare looks tricky though. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,barry Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM Hunting thr Hare Ag fiadhach an girrfhiadh Pronounced egg fee-och on gurry |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:36 PM To help people offering pronunciation guides, it would be useful to indicate if you speak Merkin or British English, because phonetic renderings from Irish will depend on how people assume you will pronounce the "English" equivalents. Some of the Irish titles in O'Neill's can be a bit hard to read, but here's a website that gives a straightforward comparative table. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Barry Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM Number 437 Another jig will do deanfaidh port eile pronounced jane-fee purt ella I'm sure I'll get in trouble with someone for my attempts but as I understand it pavane you want to be able to make a reasonable attempt to introduce the tunes on stage so I'm not too far off. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:57 PM Thanks for that. I am English, so would interpret any phonetics as based roughly on what I think they call RP (Received Pronunciation?) Of course, for REAL phonetics, we need yet another font/typeface... The one with the upside down e and so son. (I think I can manage egg & curry though) |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:53 PM Ag Fiadhach an Girrfhiadh literally 'Hunting the Hare' egg fyach an gurrah, rather than fee-och and gurry, I think, now 'hare' is spelled in modern Irish convention, giorria, if that is any easier! Déanfaidh port eile - as Barry has above, jane-fee purt ella, because of the fada on the e, the future from of the verb 'do' so literally word for word 'will do jig another' or in English ' Another Jig will do!' |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:54 PM Post the words of a song you want to sing and I can email you an mp3 of me saying the words, probably. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM Oh, and most songs are available in both the traditional script and what Connemara people refer to as "na damanta haitch-anna" (the damned aitches), so if you just put in a title, we can probably come up with the words in Irish and English, plus an mp3 of how the words sound. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM Oh, and if I don't answer, ask Amos to give me a shout. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:52 PM Guest JTT - it isn't as much as a song, just a few tune titles. When I have finally decided which tunes, (to go with these two above) I will post the English names. That idea of an MP3 sounds great, and for a few phrases it should be quite small. So far, then, from the posts above, two slip jigs Ag Fiadhach an Girrfhiadh : literally 'Hunting the Hare' deanfaidh port eile : Another jig will do Also Si beag, si mor (is that spelling right?) The Blarney Pilgrim - would that be Turasa bhlarnaigh? My attempt at transliteration That would probably be enough! Thanks to all so far for the help. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM She byug, she more tour us uh vlarney |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:30 PM Tell me where to email an mp3 and I'll work out how to make one. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 12:16 AM Maybe slightly off topic, but was listening yesterday on Radio National to an Irish lady who works in the English Faculty at University of Adelaide. Her main theme was how old Irish words have become part of Australian slang and were often used initially as secret words. The most interesting assertion was that the word 'didgeridoo' was the concatenation of two Irish words meaning 'black man' and 'trumpet'. While she did give the original words I have no idea what they were. The segment was not long but the other slang she mentioned was 'kip' - the flat piece of wood used to toss pennies in the air in the gambling game of Two Up, 'cracking on' as in attempting to seduce (but not derived from 'craic'), and notably 'sheila' which in the earliest days of colonial Australia (when men outnumbered women nine to one) was an Irish word for homosexual - pronounced 'shayla' in those times. For those that don't know 'sheila' was a condescending term for a woman and largely supplanted by American terms such as 'chick'. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:47 AM Forgot to mention that the source for some of the Irish language roots is the Oxford Book of Australian Slang. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Fiolar Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:20 AM A word of caution folks. The pronounciation of Irish will all depend on which part of Ireland you come from. Some years ago I got a postal course from Lingophone with the idea of brushing up on my Irish. I learned Munster Irish. The course was in Leinster Irish with some words pronounced completely different to what I learned. I gave up. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:47 AM Pavane - you are right to seek the help of the talented and helpful folk here, but there is a readily available tool that would likely help as well. There is a music book called "The Celtic Fake Book" with some 450 or so songs and tunes from a variety of Celtic cultures. More to the point here, is that the book includes a very helpful pronunciation guide to Irish Gaelic, designed to facilitate pronunciation of the titles. It's available here (FL)for about US$20. I wouldn't take as an authoritative manual, but it may serve your needs (which many of us share). Thanks for starting this most inetresting thread. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:37 AM SO I presume there is no 'Standard' Irish pronunciation, just the regional versions? I don't really mind which, as I will be using it in Wales anyway, and only for a few words. The same kind of difference occurs in Welsh between North and South Wales (But I don't speak either version) |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:20 AM Problems in pronounciation of Irish are greatly exaggerated by people who haven't been taught or never bothered to learn how to pronounce the vowels in Irish first. Naturally it is impossible to make words sound even halfway right if the vowels are pronounced as if the reader was reading English. Any good book on learning Irish will give the correct pronouncations and the question of the various dialects is no more difficult than is listening to English dialects as spoken by a Londoner and a Yorkshire person. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM There are three dialects of Irish: Connacht, Munster and Ulster; though there is blurring where the borders meet. Mostly it's to do with *slight* differences in pronunciation - no greater than the difference between, say, a Northern Irish accent and the accent of someone from Cork, which seems huge to anyone Irish but almost indecipherable to Americans. In very commonly used phrases like "How are you" there are also variations in these dialects, as there are in the English of the regions. (For instance, a Belfast person speaking English would be likely to greet a friend with "how's about ye?", whereas a Dubliner might say "how's it going?"; in Irish the northerner would say "Cad é mar atá tú?" and a Connacht person "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú". Big deal. Once you've learned the basics of the language, all this kind of stuff is taken easily in your stride.) Indeed, come to think of it, I was learning Mandarin a couple of years ago, and learned xie-xie for "thanks"; talking to a pal recently I was told "Dosyeh" was also commonly used. This is the kind of level of differences in Irish dialects. Again, dialect differences in pronunciation - where someone from West Cork might say "thaw" for "tá", someone from Connemara would say it more like "taa", and someone from the North more like "tay" - hence all the people called "Shane" rather than "Shawn" in America - they're descendants of Northerners who pronounced the name Seán like that. Anyway, the offer stands, Pavane; if you want a simple mp3 file or two on how to say the phrases you're looking for, send me your email address - email me at drnua at yahoo com - and I'll email you the files of the phrases you require. I've now downloaded a program that allows me to record my voice as an mp3 file on my Mac, so it's easy enough. But no pressure - plenty of good advice from others here. By the way, I assume that everyone here knows that Raidió na Gaeltachta is online (as is RTE Lyric FM if you like classical music and occasionally some traditional - they're currently playing a lot of the music referenced in Joyce's books, and have a Joyce music CD out) and RTE1 and 2. A google should lead you to any of them. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM By the way, the word for a hare in Irish, giorraí, actually means "short deer". If you've ever lain on a hill and watched hares (or deer) below, you'll see why. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jun 04 - 08:08 PM How do you pronounce the lady's name who sings with Chris Newman? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: John in Brisbane Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM Guest, do you have a copy of the Celtic Fake Book. If you were able to scan the index then someone here could post the details for posterity. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 20 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM How do you spell her name, weel? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Mick Date: 20 Jun 04 - 12:58 PM The Celtic Fake Book Publisher: Hal Leonard Corporation ISBN: 0-634-01727-6 |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:54 AM JTT, Máire Ní Chathasaigh is the singer and harpist "weedrummer" refers to. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:24 AM I see I made an error transcribing "buidhe"! but honestly, anyone can do it - no need to know any Irish (unless you want to substitute the modern spellings). Basically, you just substitute a dot above a letter with an "h". "An Pluiméir Ceolmhar" gives a handy link on his message of 18 June. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:25 AM More-uh Nee Ha-uh-see some might say Moy-ruh, and the Ha, as in hat has a bit of the 'ch' in 'ach' sound |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:00 PM What Bill says. Incidentally, the dot over a consonant to soften it was a shorthand adopted in the 18th century by the poets who had been thrown on to farmwork by the loss of their aristocratic Gaelic patrons. After work they'd go back to the bothy where the farmhands worked, and write by rushlight, copying out by memory their own compositions and also the traditional stories, songs and poems that had been in the oral tradition, sometimes for many hundreds of years. They formed a kind of shorthand of which only the buailte - the dot over the consonant - survived. Hey, Pavane seems to have disappeared once I made the offer. Weird! My Irish isn't *that* bad! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: pavane Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:28 PM No, I am still here. But Mrs Pavane says I can't even pronounce the names of the Welsh tunes properly, (I am a Londoner, after all) and thinks I should stick to English, so I won't be able to use any of this :-(> Thank you all anyway, it has been most interesting. (I may still try to sneak some in though.) |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM Well, the offer's open; if you want to learn the pronunciation of the phrases you mention, I'll record them. Tell the missus that it's thinking like that stops the English from learning French, German, Japanese, Chinese, etc, while the rest of Europe chatters away multilingually. Can do, Pavane. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: belfast Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:18 AM Mind you, it would be foolish to assume that the Irish names given in O'Neill are the "real" names of the tunes. I have spent many a night in the company of musicians and have never heard any of them (including fluent Gaelic speakers) use the Irish name of a tune. And I would strongly suspect that O'Neill himself knew these tunes by their English names and translated them into Irish for his book. There are, of course, some pieces that arre only known by their Irish name- An Coolin and Roisin Dubh, for example. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,JTT Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:37 AM Or it could be that names have changed over time, as English came to be universally used and Irish declined. Thuas seal, thios seal... |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,keef Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:38 AM Just wondering. Here in "Girt By Sea" we now have lots of sheilas called Caitlin which of course we pronounce as Kate Lin . Just wonderin if this is perhaps the gaelic spelling for Cathleen, pronounced Cath Lean. Same as equal numbers of Sheilas are called Megan pronounced Mee Gan whereas the original? Welsh name is Megan pronounced Meg Ann. Yors pedantically Keef |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,dave in N.Z. Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM Forgive me for being ignorant, but, how is "adh mor" pronounced. Phonetically would be easiest to understand if anyone can help?!! Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur. david@mrwild.co.nz |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,gaedilgeoir Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:54 AM There are 3 main dialects of Gaedilge. They are heard in the News broadcasts of Radio na Gaeltachta. They differ a little and systematically in pronunciation. Native speakers of one easily understand the others and Scots gaelic. The northern dialect was spoken north of a line roughly joining Dundalk and Bundoran. Its sounds reflect the nearness of Scotland. It is the second-largest in everyday use. The main population spoke a central dialect a line joining Wexford to Ennis. It remains the largest in everyday use and literature. A southern dialect was spoken in the south. Mixtures occurred at the borders. A phonetic type spelling is taught since 1976 and learners vary in sounds. a as uh accented as aw e as e accented a 'jay' without the 'j' i as ih accented as ee o as uh accented as 'oh' u as uh accented as oo bh & mhas 'v' before i,e, 'w' to aou |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Brían Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:23 PM Here is a link with some sound samples that might help with pronounciation: Daltaí na Gaeilge Brían |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Cecil Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:49 PM I was searching on the web for the pronounciation of giorria (hare), and since you mentioned it here, I've read through the page, but unfortunately I couldn't find the answer. :( So would anyone be so kind as to help me how to pronounce giorria? Many thanks in advance! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Mick Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:04 PM girr-ee-ah with a hard G sound, would be close. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Declan Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:31 PM Mick is right on the nail for one pronunciation of the word. In a different dialect, more Munster I think, it would be more like G-yurr-ee-ah. The language can sound differently in the local accents of the area it is spoken, so there's rarely one right answer to questions like this. And if Dave in NZ is still waiting for an answer after all these years ádh Mór is pronounced Awe (as in John Wayne) More or Moore (depending on the dialect again). |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Theodore Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:22 AM I've noticed that singers pronounce what I'll call the "h-mutation" differently in several recordings, and apparently in disregard of the spelling. So, Ciaran O Gealbhain in singing Casadh an tSúgáin pronounces féin as /hen/. In fact, in this recording, he seems to aspirate practically everything...a lovely sound, but confusing. He's from Co. Waterford. Does that impart a particular accent? In the same song, he very consistently pronounces liom as /ljaum/, a distinct "ow" sound, which is different from the Bothy band and Sean o Sé. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Cluin Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:12 AM Ask 5 different speakers of the Gaeilge and you'll get 5 different pronunciations. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Cluin Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:14 AM `Course that's true of what we all call the English language as well. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:46 PM Theodore: Yes - the Waterford intonation can be quite different from others. In particular, first language Irish speakers from An Rinn (the Gaeltacht area concerned) have a number of what I would call very "diphthong-y" sounds! That pronunciation of "liom" is a case in point. Also - how do you think "An Rinn" is pronounced?! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:27 PM I'm told that that unusual pronunciation of "liom" is largely confined to use in singing - it's not common in speech. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,kath Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:53 AM looking for the phonetic pronunciation of: "suaimhnigh sibhse!" |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM "suaimhnigh sibhse!" Subject to all the reservations implied in the rest of this thread (!): First syllable : soov Second syllable : nigg (short i, hard g) or nee , depending on dialect, Third syllable : shiv (short i again) Fourth syllable : sheh (as in "shell")
Stresses on first and third syllables. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM I'd heard that there are people who pronounced Caitlin (Kathleen) as Kate-Lynn but I didn't think it was that common. Going back to Welsh mutations they are the equivalent of the Irish or Gaelic lentitions and aspirations, so depend on a bit of grammar. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:49 PM I have a student and a friend, both named Cáit - pronunciations here (Cork) vary from Cawt (caught, taught, thought) to Coit, both with a slightly softened T. My friend Caitlín flattens the first vowel out slightly, but I think that's just a concession to us blow-ins who are deaf to the tonal subtleties (she's a fluent Irish speaker and singer). As with so many other words, this pronunciation probably varies from region to region. Packie (an Ulsterman) used to say that Munster Irish was nearly a foreign language to him. -lín would be Lean, and the name is Irish for Kathleen. |
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Subject: Martin Ryan's help From: GUEST,Guest Kath Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:15 PM Thank you Martin Ryan. You've calmed me with your thorough response to my request for the phonetic pronunciation of "suaimhnigh sibhse." I'm writing a play with some Gaelic phrases and hope I can call on you again for your expertise?! Kath |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 24 Jan 09 - 03:06 AM By all means, GuestKath Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: The Sandman Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM yes, well the surname whooley,is pronunced welly,and wooley,by two different families,who only live fifteen miles apart. likewise niall,can be pronounced neal,but is often pronounced [nile]Ithink the latter is an anglicisation,[not being a native Irish speaker, I stand corrected if I am wrong] logically it[ni] should be spoken,like niamdh[neeve],but how much of the population does it take , when usage,makes it [nile], correct. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM I know three native Nialls who all use the Irish spelling on both first and surname, but two pronounce it Neal, and the other says Nile. A bit like Cawt and Coit, I guess - they're not based very far apart either. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:45 PM Can anyone tell me the correct pronunciation of Bodhran, please? I have always pronounced it bo run with a long o sound as in 'so' and the stress on the first syllable but last night I heard it pronounced with the o as in cow, bough-run. Which is correct? Or is it something different entirely? The irony of it is that my mother was a native Irish speaker; they spoke only Irish at home and English everywhere else but her grandmother spoke only Irish and never managed to get her tongue round the 'heathen English'. I can't ask my mother's help though as she has been dead for many years and she never spoke Irish in front of us children so we didn't learn to speak that lovely language. Isn't that a shame? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM In Ireland, the usual English pronunciation, using your clues, is bough-rawn, with little difference in stress between the two syllables. Gaelic pronunciation will vary with dialect - ranging from bo-run with long o and first syllable stressed, to bough-rawn with the second syllable noticeably lengthened and stressed. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Mick Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:17 PM ..... and, as my friend Seamus Kennedy is fond of saying, "If it is made with the skin of a dog, it is a .............. .......... bow wow ron. There are some things for which transportation is an appropriate punishment. That joke is one of them. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: bubblyrat Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:04 PM I'll tell WFD that it is definitely "Bough-Rawn",then.She insists on calling it a Bore Ran, of course.We did try asking a bloke from Northern Ireland,and he said"We call it a Bore Ran", so there you go. And you still haven't explained about Mary Chainsaw properly : I mean,is she Mary O'Casey, or what ??Thank God I won't ever have to introduce her ! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:44 PM Yeah - the "Bore - ran" is very much the northern pronuciation. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 27 Feb 09 - 03:43 AM bubblyrat Sorry - I had to go back through the thread to see who "Mary" was! Máire ní Chathasaigh is the lady's name, as far as I know. Mary Casey is the English translation. Conversely, Martin Ryan is my name and Máirtín Ó Riain is the Irish translation. It's a matter of which version a person wants to give priority to in normal usage. The Ó / ní / uí prefix is a bit complicated - particularly since divorce reached Ireland's shores! Basically, ní suggests she's unmarried. Whether it turns up as O in the equivalent English name is not governed by rule - it varies. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:15 AM Thanks Martin - I think I'll probably carry on pronouncing bodhran as bore-ran because that's what I'm used to but it's good to know that bough-rawn is correct too. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:19 AM Just a thought - if someone would be kind enough My mother's family were from Galway, could anybody tell me how people from that neck of the woods pronounce bodhran given that the pronounciation differs so much from one region to another? The way I'm pronouncing it might have my old grannie spinning in her grave!! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:25 AM Marilyn The bough-rawn version would certainly slow down the rate of spin, at least. bore - run would puzzle her!
p.s. In Irish, there would be an accent on the a - hence the long aw sound. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:36 AM Thanks Martin - help very much appreciated. I shall have to train myself to say bough-rawn from now on. Marilyn |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: sian, west wales Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:51 AM It isn't my intention to drift this thread, but I'd like to make a small correction to what pavane was saying about Welsh mutations ("These occur when the mutated letter follows particular other letter") That isn't exactly the case. Mutations for the most part depend on the gender of the noun. In Bryn Coch, Bryn is masculine so the C in Coch does not mutate. However, in "Y Ddraig Goch", "Draig" mutates to "DDraig" (remembering that 'dd' is a single and distinct letter in Welsh) because 'dragon' is feminine (and, yes, I've heard most of the jokes) and 'coch' becomes 'goch' because if follows a feminine noun. Where pavane is correct is that there are 6 consonants which can mutate (p,t,c,b,d,g) in 3 ways (soft, nasal, aspirate). 'll', 'm', and 'rh' can also undergo soft mutation only. There are other reasons for mutations, e.g. usually adjectives follow nouns in Welsh but a few do precede the noun, like 'hen' (old) and the following noun then undergoes a soft mutation. It really isn't as difficult as it looks, and I notice that some 'natural' Welsh speakers who have never had Welsh-medium education don't a) stick to the rules or b) even know they exist. And it strikes me that there is a heavy dose of regionalism in its employ as well. There. Just thought I'd throw in this bit of detail, us being on the down-slope to St David's Day and all. sian |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: ard mhacha Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM I find the Cork-Kerry English is difficult for lots of northerners, likewise when I worked in England a Geordie [north-east] accent was double-dutch to lots of Londoners, surely all of that difficulty with listening to Irish is simply different accents. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM I find the Cork-Kerry English is difficult for lots of northerners, likewise when I worked in England a Geordie [north-east] accent was double-dutch to lots of Londoners, surely all of that difficulty with listening to Irish is simply different accents. Simply? Weelllll...... It's a mix of accent and dialect. If someone handed me a transcript of a piece of Donegal Irish, I would expect to be able to understand the bulk of it - but depending on whether the original was from a native speaker or not, there would be words and phrases that would be very different from what I would be familiar with. If a native speaker, at normal speed, SPOKE the original to me, I would be half a lap behind at best! If the original were Munster Irish, I would have no difficulty in either situation. Connemara Irish? It would depend on dentition! ;>) With non-native speakers, the situation is rather different. When I was a schoolboy, we strove to avoid "Dublin Irish" which was effectively a reduced vocabulary version of the language which tended to use English grammatical and idiomatic structures rather than Irish and paid little attention to the niceties of pronunciation. (In some cases, of course, you had expressions which had semi-migrated from Irish to Hiberno-English finding their way back to Irish!). There's plenty of that version still around - and now there's even a kind of "Belfast Irish" equivalent to it! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: ard mhacha Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:27 PM Martin, My fellow Ulster Gaels who spend their holidays in Munster or Leinster can get by with ease, I am referring to speaking the language, surely TG4 has a wide spread of accent/dialect not beyond any Gaels interpretation. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:30 PM Ard Mhaca Your mention of Leinster is interesting. The nearest thing to first language Irish there is, as you know, Rath Carn which is a transplanted enclave of Conemara Irish. I have no real experience of the dialect or accent involved - the numbers are very small. My basic point remains. The three main streams of first language Irish differ significantly in intonation, vocabulary and idiom. Yes - native speakers of each can, with some adaptation, understand each other in speech. That doesn't take away from the fact that the differences exist. Non native-speakers (such as myself) tend to use a more standardised vocabulary and, often, mixed intonation and a phraseology with greater or less transfer from english idiom. This is neither a criticism nor a defence - it's a simple statement of my experience over more than fifty years of speaking a language I love! Beir bua. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Mick Date: 28 Feb 09 - 05:46 PM OK, so let me pose this to both of you. As an American cousin, if I were to recommend tuition, which "stream" would one recommend to others who want to learn? I have been told that there is more day to day spoken communication in the North which would lead the learner towards Ulster. Yet the people I learned from, family and friends, were from the Galway area, which as Martin points out, differs from my good friends from Derry and Donegal. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 28 Feb 09 - 06:31 PM Big Mick I wouldn't worry about it. IMO, the main priority would be to find a competent teacher who would basically stick to the the "caighdeán" (official standard) but also impart a flavour of one of the main streams. There is increasing emphasis on a standardised set of (EU based) levels in the teaching of, in particular, adult learners. This will probably increase the convergence among that group. Incidentally, Galway/Mayo still holds the largest population of first language Irish speakers, as far as I know - having taken over from Cork/Kerry some years ago. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Declan Date: 28 Feb 09 - 08:50 PM While agreeing with what Martin says, if you feel you have to choose I'd go for the Galway/Mayo dialect given a choice, if only on the basis of being geographically half way up the coastline it's probably a near fit to either of the exiting Western dialects Its a bigger learning curve to go from either Donegal to Kerry or Vice versa. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Big Mick Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:26 PM Yes, Declan and Martin, that makes sense. I am very rusty, as there are few speakers around me any more. It is why I love these threads. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:49 AM As a late convert from Munster towards Connemara, I'd tend to agree with Declan's diagnosis - even though there are some sounds in that dialect which it just goes against the grain for me to make! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:55 AM May I be a pain and ask for more help, please? I'm in a band (Halfe Pannikin) and we play a lovely tune called Kathleen O'Hehir. We're dreading someone asking us what it's called because we haven't a clue how to pronounce it (the O'Hehir bit, we're OK with Kathleen [grin]) If you're ready for a laugh - I say something like oh -huh-heer Not what should it be, please? Ta, Marilyn |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:02 AM Oddly enough, it's pronounced as two syllables; oh-hare Stress is, as expected, on the second syllable. No pain! Regards p.s. That's "hare" as in "Hunt the hare and turn him down", of course! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:08 AM Thanks, Martin, much appreciated. Regards, Marilyn |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: ard mhacha Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:23 AM Martin, Sound advice for Mick, staring with a good teacher of standard Irish is ideal,my advice to anyone learning Irish is a course in a Gaelteacht area, immersion in the tongue is the sure-fired method of learning. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: ard mhacha Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:46 AM Sorry Martin a correction to my reference to the Meath Gaelteacht [Leinster] that should have read Connaught. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Meg Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:45 PM I was wondering how you pronounce the word "hope" in Gaelic. I've found that the word is Dóchas and from what I've been able to maybe piece together it would sound like doe-kas. Is that right? Or am I totally off on it? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:24 PM try doh kuss |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:24 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Jeeves Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:01 PM Can anyone tell me if Giorria sa bhFraoch (the Hare in the Heather) is pronounced correctly as Girr-ee-ah saab Free-och ? I have a Donegal friend who always says Gee-oria saab Froch. A pint of Guinness rests on the answer ! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 10 Aug 09 - 05:59 PM You'll find a simple pronunciation of giorria HERE sa is straightforward - just drop the t from sat! bhfraoch is a bit more problematical. For a start, there is no b sound in the word - the bhf is somewhere between an f and a v, really. The pronunciation of the rest of the word will vary with dialect. I suspect most people pronounce it roughly vray ock - but you will certainly hear an ee sound replacing that ay sound (as in hay), in places. I suggest you call it a draw and buy each other a pint - or, better still, two pints! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Jeeves Date: 11 Aug 09 - 05:33 PM Go raibh maith agat agus slainte ! |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Jm Paul Date: 04 Sep 09 - 07:25 PM Can someone tell me how to pronounce the Irish words 'pasáiste' and 'slán'? I am looking for a title to my next book that roughly translates to 'Free Passage', 'Save Passage' or 'Free Ticket'. Thanks for any help you can give me. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Thompson Date: 05 Sep 09 - 05:28 PM pasáite: passAWstche slán: slawn in the south, slayne in the north This pronunciation guide may help. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Jim Paul Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:38 PM Thanks for the help. That's just what I was looking for. One more question: how do you say 'passkey' in Irish? Both the spelling and the phonetic pronunciation? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Jim Paul Date: 05 Sep 09 - 07:49 PM Thompson, In your pronunciation of pasáite: passAWstche, is the last syllable pronounced 'stitch' or 'stoch'? Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 31 Mar 10 - 08:49 AM Another plea for help with pronunciation, please. Sorry to be a pain. An Spealadóir (trans. - The Scytheman) The chap who gave me the music in the pub last night told me how to pronounce it but the old memory is not what it was! Any help much appreciated as I would rather not call it The Scytheman when it has a perfectly good (I hope) Irish name. t.i.a. Marilyn |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:08 AM Roughly on-spal-a-door with the main stress on the second syllable - pronounced as in "pal". last syllable also stressed. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST,Dáithí Date: 01 Apr 10 - 06:34 AM Fair enough Martin...I guess we can't really ask for that slenderised R at the end,can we.... is mór an trua é! D |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 01 Apr 10 - 09:21 AM Many thanks, yet again Martin. Your help is very much appreciated. I *might* be able to make a reasonable attempt at the slenderised R Dáithí because my mother was Irish and an Irish speaker. Although she never spoke Irish to us I grew up surrounded by lovely Irish voices and kind of absorbed some of the feel of the language. None of the written language though which is a great pity. Thanks again, Marilyn |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: MartinRyan Date: 02 Apr 10 - 06:38 PM on-spal-a-door I guess we can't really ask for that slenderised R at the end,can we.... Let's just say the door isn't quite closed! Regards |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Declan Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:57 PM Well it's the only chance of ajar on a good Friday - unlesss you're in Limerick. |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: GUEST Date: 24 Apr 10 - 10:54 AM the word strats with 'o' but has the strating pronunciation of 'w'?which is commen this word? |
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Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language From: Marilyn Date: 26 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM I'm asking for help yet again! I play a lovely tune called Urchnoc Chein mhic Cainte (acute accent on the e in Chein and on the a in Cainte) Would some kind soul please tell me how to pronounce it and what it means? t.i.a. Marilyn |
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