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BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
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Subject: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 18 Mar 05 - 10:32 PM Well gol danged.... Looks as if a brain dead woman in Florida has found her way into the US government, perhaps even bringint the entire Congree back into session to act to save her "vegatative" state of life. Like, hmmmmmmmm? I thought that Congress was there to serve the American people who aren't brain dead??? Silly me. 44,000,000 Americans without health insurance. Declining wages of the average American worker. Big tax cuts to those who don't work and here we are putting out attentiomn an a woman who is brain dead??? Ahhh, like if these "right to lifers" would put a little attention into improving the chances of some kid in projects right to a real life then maybe I'd have some sympathy fir their cause... But they couldn't care less about that kid, very much alive, i the project... No, rather than invest somethin in the living they'd rather stake their claim to a woman who has been brain dead fir 15 years??? Like would any of you Bush-heads like to explain why a brain dead white woman id more important to you than avery much alive black kid from the projects??? Yeah, waitin on yer comments..... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM Yew iz makin' fur too much sense tonight, my friend Bo-bare. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:20 PM Every life is important Bobert. I read your posts. I know that you know that. Terri Schiavo's is no less important than anyone else's, nor is it more important. This whole affair seems to revolve around a couple of key questions. 1) Is she really brain dead, or just severely mentally disabled? If it's the latter, then the State of Florida is embarking on a journey I don't wish to join, down a really slippery slope (i.e. just how dumb do you gotta be before it's OK to kill you?). We all saw the lack of morality displayed by the State of Florida in November of 2004. We didn't trust them then, why should we trust them now? 2) Who is ultimately going to set public policy in Florida? This seems as much a battle of wills between the legislature and the judiciary as any thing else. 3) Why is her husband so intent on ending her life? My nose says "follow the money". As I understand it, he stands to profit greatly from settlements awarded that were intended to provide for her care, but which go to him upon her death. Now, I'm no brain-dead BushieHead (well ok, brain dead sometimes, but definately no Bushite) but I do find this case fascinating. I don't however, think that my fascination should be interpreted as a value judgement that her life is any more important than a life lived in poverty, despair and hardship by someone of a different skin color. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:25 PM 3) no, I believe the settlements were spent out for her care, long ago, and that he has turned down the cool million her parents offered to transfer her care to them. I believe he and many others see it as a patient rights situation-- does she have the right to refuse care, as she apparently stated to several people would be her desire, under this sort of circumstances. Yes it is grim and messy-- but how many people of her age at the time of injury would have had such in writing? No right answers-- it's all tragedy. But she married him and in our society, spouses become the decision makers when incapacitation requires someone make a decision. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Susu's Hubby Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:42 PM amen sister susan..... I agree with you 100% on this one. W, Jeb and the congress have been, in my opinion, showboating this case to grab a few headlines. And that, coming from me, really pisses me off. It's all about spousal rights and nothing else. The supreme court was right to not get involved in the dealings of the Florida courts on this issue. Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Auggie (Gotta find that Cookie) Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:44 PM If you're certain Susan, then I stand corrected. It just seems to me that both sides(except perhaps for the parents) have a myriad of interests, mostly selfish, beyond what is best for the patient. And if nothing else, the case should serve as a good poke in the ribs with a sharp stick to those (of any age) who haven't a living will. While I (hopefully) properly value the sanctity of life, I know I sure didn't work a lifetime at a job I dislike just to see my life-savings go to fill the coffers of some hospital. My children have been instructed that when that time comes, they are to load me on my motorcycle one last time, lock the throttle wide open, and point me at the nearest tree or cliff (life insurance policy with double indemnity for accidental death). Failing that, there is always the Living Will to fall back on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Sorcha Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:52 PM I only know that I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that state, even if I were more or less mentally comptetent. And, it's not really about 'killing' her...it's about allowing her to die. Lethal injection would be killing...pulling the plugs is allowing. I don't understand her parents position on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:06 AM So, is starving her to death by pulling the feeding tube "Allowing her to die?" Or is it actively killing her? No one has proven that she's brain dead, by he way. Severely retarded, yes; brain-dead, no. OK, now, who's going to be the first to propose killing the rest of retarded folks if this one is allowed? Eugenics, anyone? Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Troll Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:06 AM Well, the Congress has really stepped in this time. By issuing a supoena (sp?) for her to appear to "testify", which tactic puts the un-plugging on hold, they have opened the door for the death penalty opponents to use the same tactic. As a general rule, the right-to-lifers favor the death penalty while the pro-aborters swing the other way. Peoples is truly the kwaaaaaziest monkeys. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: DougR Date: 19 Mar 05 - 01:20 AM Bobert: a strange postion for one who professes to be so concerned about human life. The lady in question is not brain dead evidently. So you want to kill her? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Dave'swife Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:39 AM Because I once wrote about a an early case such as this, I have followed this case for some time and its pretty amazing to see how very little actual truth of the story gets reported by the Media who seem to only be able to cast this as two extreme positions. I call it.. "The Cross-fire-ization of American discourse". The reality is very murky. Both the husband and the parents have greatly exaggerated their case in appearances on TV, leaving most people bewildered. First off, she's not Brain DEAD, she's brain DAMAGED and that was as a result of what some people would consider suicidual behavior. She had an eating disorder and was binging/purging. She so screwed up the electrolyte balance in her body that her heart stopped, depriving her brain of oxygen and leaving her in the semi-vegitative state she is in now. There are doctors who say she is conscious of her suroundings and just as many who say she is not; that her higher brain functioning that would permit that has been wiped out. She does make vocalizations which her parents swear is an attempt to communicate. Neurologists say that is pure fantasy. Her parents say it is only her husband claiming she had stated she did not want to be kept alive by artificial means, but in reality there were several witnesses who reported those conversations as being sincere and adamament. Her parents say her husband wants top profit, but the courts don't agree with that characterization. Basically it's a big old mess and I have no opinion one way or another. If it WAS her wish to not be kept alive this way..I hope there's an afterlife so all that are prolonging this can PAY. If she did not say these things..I hope there is an afterlife so those her want to snuff her out early can Pay. The whole money motive is also murky. If, as the parents claim, there is loads of money somewhere set aside for her care and that whomever has custody of her gets their mitts on the dough..then don't THEY have a profit motive in seeking physical custody? I think the real tragedy is that this ever had to go to court in the first place. You'd think of both sides of this case really loved her as they say, they would have worked something out. I do know that if something like that ever happened to me, I'd want my husband and ONLY my husband to decide what to do. As much as I love my paents, I know them too well and I know that my wishes wouldn't mean squat. I am amazed at the amount of government intervention and expenditure on this case. We can't get congress to spend one extra freakin' minute in session to try and reign in our debt, but they can risk dragging them all back in for this poor woman's case? They even supbeoned her to 'tesify'! Talk about abuse of the system. Congress just preserved all the loopholes for rich people in their 'bankruptcy reform' package and made it harder for the 90% of truly broke people who don't abuse Bankruptcy filing to ever get to file. We have 8 hours of live TV coverage of millionaires taking steroids but nobody addresses the fact that at last report, 1 in 12 9th graders have used inhalants such as Glue and Shoe Polish to get high. That's more than teens who have tried MJ! I just see on TV a govt. report that shows Americans wast something like one and a half BILLION dollars a year by throwing away edible food and that at least HALF that food could be redirected without a great deal of effort to programs for the hungry like Second harvest and to after-school food programs. Good lord, why not have hearings and special sessions on THAT? Ah well...I'm praying for the woman. She needs it. I'm done now! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:43 AM Greetings All, To me this is simply a case of abuse of legislative power. Our system of governance has been perverted by those that wish to impose their way upon others. There have been hours and hours of Judicial (our system's legislative adjudication process) time dedicated to this question. A decision has been made. For Congress to attempt to circumvent that process is not only an abuse of their power it is a blatant acquiescence to an interest group. I do not know the facts of this case and I would suggest that very few really do. Our process has been followed. The fact that a minority interest is not pleased with the final decision should not be allowed as a cause to circumvent an established method of governance irrespective of which side of the question they represent. I firmly believe that our "conventional" medical system is little more that a system of commerce so therefore it is difficult for me to believe that there is little other than financial motives on the part of the care providers. I am not referring to those individuals that care for this woman on a day to day basis personally. I am, however, referring to the institution and it's managers. That said, I have given rather specific instructions to my bride, my children, and friends that if I were ever so ill that I required this type of treatment, temporarily or otherwise, they are to take me out to the woods, set me down beneath a Weeping Willow tree alongside a pond, kiss me one last time, and walk away. To my way of thinking a greater power then we initiated my journey here and I have every confidence in submitting to this power's determination as to when my walk over. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:24 AM I was thinking yesterday that if I started a thread about this situation, I'd title it, "Dear Terri, I'm Sorry." Sorry no one really knows what's right and is operating on reactive emotion; Sorry your privacy has been so invaded; Sorry it's taking so long to let you go; Sorry it's not taking long enough to decide this really well; .......... Stuff like that. No, not "sorry" as a personal responsibility exactly-- except that as voting members of a society we all bear some responsibility here-- not fault, but responsibility... What I thought was that really, being filled with regret about every aspect of this is just about the only "right" response. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: kendall Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:28 AM Seems logical to me that congress would get involved, most of them are vegetables too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:34 AM From Auggie above: We all saw the lack of morality displayed by the State of Florida in November of 2004. We didn't trust them then, why should we trust them now? Please explain? Are you referring to Bush v Kerry? I was not aware that the State (with a capital "s") of Florida had any bearinng in the outcome in 2004. 2000, maybe... If you meant it with a small "s", referring to Floridians in general, this Floridian (who voted for Kerry) is offended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: kendall Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:36 AM Why is it that the pro life types are unable to understand the difference between pro choice and pro abortion? I am not in favor of abortion, (it is a personal decision having nothing to do with me) I am at the same time AGINST the government telling women what to do with their own bodies. What is so hard to understand? As Clinton said "I'd like to see abortion made affordable, safe and unnecessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:35 AM Amazing isn't it, all this about one tragic U.S.life, meanwhile in Iraq.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,another guest Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM I thought the same when we saw Bush fawning over the McCartney sisters. Some people really need to get their own house in order before they start interfering where they are not wanted. But of course interefring has become the great american trait, kind of takes the eye of what they are involved in elsewhere, that being the wholesale slaughter of thoudands of innocent civilians and kids, not to mention the systematic abuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:46 AM Well, one last thought this morning before I leave for my weekly DC blues jam... ... Seems that the Bush-heads argue on one hand that they don't want Big Brother meadling in their affairs but since Bush took office all I see is more and more of just that... Next thing you know they'l be outlawing plaid shirts 'er sandals 'er........ Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:13 AM By reading this thread, you can instantly tell where people get their misinformation from--and a whole lot of you are watching cable news for your information, because you are spouting exactly what I heard last night as I channel surfed those 24/7 cable news programs you all watch to get your lies straight. For the record: 1. The parents are Right to Life activists, and are using their daughter as a political football to further the Right to Life agenda. 2. The courts, at every level of the appeals for the past decade, brought in their own neurologists who are experts in the field and not in any way related to either the husband or the parents, to evaluate the medical condition of the woman. All of them universally agreed the woman is brain dead, and that the parents are simply refusing to accept that diagnosis. But there is no question about the woman's state. She is brain dead. She no longer has a cerebral cortex. Not that any of you lot know what that means, of course...you all saw the pictures of her "smiling" at her mummy on the TV. 3. Removal of feeding and hydration tubes does not cause pain, and isn't "starving her to death". But this is exactly what the real issue is that is being fought over by the Right to Lifers. THEY want to determine when you die, and to be able to override your wishes, or overrule your family member acting on your behalf with legal standing. This is one more case of the radical right forcing their political agenda down the throats of the nation. 4. The latest polling I've seen shows an overwhelming majority of the American public being on the side of the husband, not the parents. As in over 80%. Which begs the question: why did the Right to Life movement pick this case? Answer: Florida. 5. I am hopeful that all the other courts where the appeals will be filed, will follow the lead of the US Supreme Court, and refuse to hear any more appeals. Then we'd have some small reassurance that our system of justice hasn't been completely hijacked by the right wing Republican zealots in this country. Yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM "... Seems that the Bush-heads argue on one hand that they don't want Big Brother meadling in their affairs but since Bush took office all I see is more and more of just that... Next thing you know they'l be outlawing plaid shirts 'er sandals 'er........" Greetings Bobert, It seems to me that neither party can point that finger at the other. The unfortunate part is that upon review of the election turn out here and its comparison to the number of eligible voters I come to the conclusion that only minority interests are promoted. 50% of 60% is 30%, certainly not a majority by any standard. Well perhaps it is with-in some standard concocted by the party leaders. I have heard the term "Mandate" bantered about quite often in my time on the planet. One last thought (random as it may be); The last time in our history I am aware of the reference to colors of States was made they were Blue and Gray (order chosen only due to alphabetical arrangement). Enjoy the music and the day. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM People should be TERRIFIED of this intervention by the Republican zealots in the US Congress. What they are talking about doing as a result of this case, is passing federal legislation that would make it illegal to remove feeding and hydration tubes--and not just from patients in a permanent vegetative state, but also people who have battled diseases like emphysema, cancer, stroke, etc. who wish to have the respirators removed so they can die. I'm not certain of this number, but I think I heard in the last several days nearly 250,000 patients, either on their own or through their legal guardian, who made the decision to have life support technology removed from their bodies so they could die, would be impacted by such a law. It would also take the legal right of "next of kin" to act as legal guardians on our behalf away from us as individuals, and put those powers in the hands of the state, to be carried out in accordance with the wishes of the Right to Life movement's agenda. So, all those for having this guy in charge of their end of life medical care decisions, keep voting Republican. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Jeri Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM From the Dictionary at LaborLawTalk: "Although some have proposed that loss of neo-cortical function should be termed "brain death", the term as used clinically includes loss of both cortex and brainstem function."I don't see how the doctors "universally agreed the woman is brain dead", because she isn't. She has a functioning brain stem which regulates her heartbeat and respiration. There is enough misinformation to go around. She's not brain dead, she's not in a coma, and starvation doesn't cause pain. I don't believe there's any purpose in keeping her alive in this grotesque manner besides using the poor woman as a sympathy-attracting object to bash around the court system. This is not about what's best for the people directly involved anymore. It's about how much political carrion the vultures can tear from it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:26 AM I stand corrected by your legal definition of "brain dead". However, medical definitions are more fluid, and much more complex. And then there is the "general usage" in everyday language of the term "brain dead". This woman's cerebral cortex wouldn't even qualify as mush: it is liquid. Some parts of her brain ARE dead, some parts (the part of the brain which rules respiration) aren't. But you miss the point, like everyone else is. WHO IS WAGING THIS COURT BATTLE AND WHAT DO THEY STAND TO GAIN? The answer is the right wing extremist anti-abortion movement, and they hope to overturn nearly 20 years of progress in end of life care, the use of living wills and advance care directives legislation that protects individuals and families from these "religious" zealots taking control of our medical decision making rights as individuals, and replacing them with state and federal laws that control who gets to die when, and forces medical interventions and procedures on individuals whether they want them or not. Now, why do you suppose the mainstream media isn't reporting those "facts" about this case? Answer: they need to kowtow to the Republican right agenda, in order to keep their grip on power over OUR airwaves. And anybody who doesn't think this is a Republican party agenda doesn't know much about right wing zealotry in the US. Christian fundamentalist zealots don't join the Democratic party. They have, however, successfully taken over the Republican party, with their #1 religious zealot as president of the US. BTW, in case you all haven't heard. The US Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal filed by the US House of Representatives group (ie Tom DeLay & his boys). I am guessing their refusal to hear the appeal, along with the Florida judge's ruling, will now end the appeal cycle by the parents. No judge in his right mind will go against the US Supreme Court. Of course, it is obvious there are a number of extremist right wing judges, particularly in the south, who aren't in their right minds, but in their Christian zealot ones, otherwise this case never would have seen the light of day. The Florida legislature has, rightfully and sanely, refused to get involved in this case for a second time, because the last time they tried to intervene in the judicial branches business by passing "Terri's Law" they were promptly slapped down for it by an angry judiciary. So now, it is just a matter of time before the woman dies, thankfully and mercifully for her and her husband, and depriving the National Right to Life Movement, Operation Rescue, et al of their current political football. And as to the cable news network coverage. I found it highly ironic when watching CNN last night, when the reporter on the ground was asked how many "protestors" there were at the nursing home where Schiavo is a resident, answered that the numbers were very, very small: around 50 people during the day, and down to less than 10 by sundown. You'd expect a bit more of a groundswell wouldn't you, if there was any sort of authentic public outcry over this issue? It also speaks volumes about the ability of the extreme right wing Republican movement to take over and monopolize the cable news and talk radio airwaves with their agenda, and conveniently keep the real news from getting through. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:28 AM BTW, use of the term "starving her to death" is a talking point being used by the Right to Life activists you are seeing on tv--which includes the parents and siblings of the woman, their lawyers, and their cadre of people available for media interviews. Ironic too, that they have so much time to spend with the media, when there is so little time left to spend with their beloved Terri... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Auggie Date: 19 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM Bee-dubya-ell I was indeed referring to 2000 (Bush v. Gore), not 2004-my mistake- and I meant it with a capital S. I don't mind being occassionally regarded as offensive, but only when it's my intent. Such was not the case this time, however, if you're still offended you can perhaps find some solace in that I'm off to shovel about 10 inches of new snow from my driveway. I wish to hell I were in Florida right about now. Regards, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,CAH Date: 19 Mar 05 - 11:52 AM Any time I've ever heard anyone talk about being a "right to lifer" I'm stuck by the fact that all they're really interested in is THEIR right to decide who lives and who dies... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM This morning, on Good Morning America (or whatever the name of that morning show is), Tom DeLay said that this judge (Greer, the Florida judge who has presided over this case since the initial filing of the husband in 1998 to have the feeding tube removed) "has been trying to kill Terri for 4 1/2 years." I never cease to be amazed at what the right wing zealots are getting away with in this country right now. It is beyond belief that such a high ranking member of the US Congress would make such an incendiary, utterly irresponsible statement about a member of the judiciary--especially in the wake of the recent killings of judges and judges' family members, and in light of the fact that it is Randall Terry & the Operation Rescue crew that is on the ground in Floriday, handing out the judge's home address at the nursing home protest. He and Operation Rescue were successfully prosecuted under racketeering laws for doing the same thing at abortion clinics. So, now we can expect to wade through these "religious" thugs on our way to visit mom and dad in the nursing home? BTW, Greer, the Fla judge, is said to be under police protection right now in an unknown location, because those wonderful "right to life" folks have been issuing a whole lot of death threats against him and to him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: robomatic Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:42 PM I wish GUEST had the courage of her convictions and would assume a member name or thread ID. It detracts from her arguments to pot in barbs without some form of identification. Plus I haven't seen any references or citations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM Don't even go there robomatic follower of all that is right wing conspiracy driven, or I'll fuckin' blue clickey your ass into a parallel universe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: robomatic Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:09 PM A HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA I don't get it You've proven nothing and weakened your own cause. Click away, prove your point. This subject has already come up on a couple of other threads, which unfortunately weren't much better than this, but at least people had the guts to commit their names. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:07 PM Apparently, the woman in the permanent vegetative state is now going to open the US government up again. The House and Senate have reached a compromise, and according to Reuters, will convene at 5:00 p.m. EST today, for a vote for the federal government to intervene in this case. I am fucking horrified at the implications of this--with nearly all the people of the US opposed to it and supporting removal of the tube no less! And the Democrats sealed the deal for the right wing Nazis! But ya know what Bobert? Ain't nobody talkin' about DeLay's ethics investigation, are they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM I'll fuckin' blue clickey your ass into a parallel universe. I'm not going to comment on whether this GUEST has a point, or whether robomatic has a point, and/or which one is more/less/equally valid in this context, if at all. I just want to say I think that is a really great line, and I might have to borrow it sometime (just for fun, mind you). On the subject of the thread, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion except for this one... I have a living will, and I hope it is honored if the time ever comes for a decision like this one to be made. If it's my time to go, please let me go in peace in the kindest and most humane setting possible... preferably in a hospice situation. That is, if my first wish is not granted, which is to die peacefully in my sleep and not be a burden on anyone in my last days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:19 PM I>Removal of feeding and hydration tubes...isn't "starving her to death". ???? Of course it is, whether it's the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do. The one certain thing about this situation is that the lady would cease to get the nourishment and liquids she requires to stay alive, and the the consequence would be, she dies. Imagine a parallel situation, where a patient was mentally aware of what was happening, and had indicated a wish to live, but the hospital authorities wanted to pull the tubes to cut costs - would anyone dream of suggesting that removing feeding and hydration tubes in such a case would not amount to "starving her to death"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:25 PM Auggie said: 1) Is she really brain dead, or just severely mentally disabled? The doctors taking care of her, who are in a position to know, say she's brain dead. That being the case, we should not be talking about "woman" but about the body of a woman. The person called Terry Schiavo is gone; all that remains is a husk, artificially maintained, which is not the person. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:25 PM If the Christian fundamentalists win this one CarolC, your living will is gonna be worth about as much as your toilet paper. No coincidence that all this is being done on the weekend Congress has left Washington for spring recess, while DeLay and the boys are staying behind to push this through while nobody is looking. Same way they got the ANWR drilling stuck into the budget bill instead of having a vote up or down on it. And of course, those leading the charge are those with large constituencies of Christian fundies, and an eye on running for the presidency in '08... Politicians are truly scum. Glad ya liked the phrase CarolC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: dick greenhaus Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:32 PM You guys just don't understand that "Right-To-Life" only refers to those unborn and those who are incapable of functioning. (Or , in other terms, those who are incapable of voting against the Administration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:56 PM McGrath, you are ignoring the facts of what happens to the physical body when a person dies a natural death as a result of this sort of injury or illness, including when the person is fully conscious. Do you call that "starving to death"? No, you don't. When a person voluntarily chooses to stop eating and drinking in order to allow their body to die, do you accuse them of committing suicide? No, you don't. Or when loved ones who assist the person in the process of dying don't force a feeding tube into them, do you call them "murderers"? No, you don't. Yes, when food and hydration aren't given for long enough, the body dies. But the medical term for it isn't "starving to death". That is the Right to Life movement's term for it. The medical profession refers to the state the body goes into while shutting down (when food and hydration isn't happening) as "ketosis" which is the same process the body undergoes when you diet to lose weight, when you fast for spiritual reasons, whatever. So what does any of this have to do with "starving to death"? Dietary ketosis is a process whereby your body burns fat and turns it into a source of fuel called ketones. Ketones are produced whenever body fat is burned. When you burn a larger amount of fat than is immediately needed for energy, the excess ketones are discarded in the urine. When a person's body is shutting down because it is dying, the level of ketones simply builds up until the toxic level is reached, which causes the heart to stop. That is exactly what happened to this poor woman 15 years ago, when medical interventions began in an attempt to save her life. No person in their right mind would say the medical interventions 15 years ago were wrong. The husband seems to be a stand up guy. Filed a malpractice lawsuit against the doctors who didn't catch that his wife's eating disorder was causing the damage to her body that it did, and the money being set aside to pay for her nursing home care. Had he been a shit, he could have just divorced her and walked away, leaving her a ward of the state. Instead, he went to bat for her, and has stuck by his guns that this is what SHE would have wanted him to do, every step of the way. This case is being used as a political football by the Christian fundamentalists, and the politicians who rely upon them. There aren't even 50 people in Florida outside the nursing home right now, protesting the removal of the feeding tube, and according to the most recent polls, an overwhelming majority of Americans supports the removal of the feeding tube. The federal courts (all the way to the US Supreme Court--twice now) have refused to intervene in the case, and have consistently returned the case to the Florida courts, where it has been adjudicated as far as it can go. This is being driven totally by Republican Christian fundamentalist politics. They see an opportunity to drive through federal legislation that will overturn two decades worth of living will and right to die legislation at the state levels, and are going for it. The US Congress has NEVER intervened like this in the case of an individual. This is a violation of the separation of powers (ie the legislative branch is trying to overrule the judiciary). The precedent is being set that parents of adult children can intervene in medical cases like this, and the right of the spouse to act as legal guardian be overturned and thrown out. This is a huge stinking mess, and it is a huge stinking mess because of politician and media whore scum who created an echo chamber beating the drums on the airwaves this week. It is simply appalling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Amos Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:57 PM Amazing that ten thousand women and children destroyed by Allied fire in Iraq do not stir the conscience of our Senate a whit, while the death of one vegetable-state woman to which the administration points as a poster-person warrants all this PR and press. It is to spit. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Vinnie Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:21 PM I would say the same thing Amos, only substitute the words "destroyed by fire" with "destroyed by abortion." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:56 PM Some women do use abortion as a means of birth control. Then say it's their body and their right. How sick is that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: robomatic Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM GUEST: I noticed you didn't have anything to follow up on your 'great line'. Still awaiting backup of your anonymous assertions. Carol: I hope you never need it, but the paperwork is only a 'rough guide' and with all the complications of modern medicine, one's specific condition may not be so addressed. So just as important is the need to specify a "health care proxy" a person who can be your voice when you dont have one. One who has been there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:06 PM Sorry boys, but your lame ass attempts to deflect the direction the conversation is going, which is clearly against the Right to Lifers who have shoved their agendas down the throats of the Schiavos and this nation, with snide remarks about the immorality of women who have abortions, ain't gonna fly. This matter has not a fucking thing to do with abortion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Amos Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM Vinnie: When I want my words substituted for, I will choose my own substitutes, thanks. I had nothing to say about abortion here, and if you do then write your own post. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Peace Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:13 PM The link to a picture of this lady (posted by The Shambles) is heartbreaking. And Washington turning this into a cause celebre is about as disgusting as anything in recent memory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Clinton Hammond Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM "How sick is that?" No sicker than you thinking YOU have ANY right to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body... So get off yer high-f#cking horse... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:24 PM If you don't get the nourishment you need, you die. Whatever you call it. That's a separate matter from whether it's right or wrong to bring this about in this particular case. But people arguing over things like that ought to avoid playing around with language as a way of shaping the argument one way or another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:43 PM Exactly my point. Use of the term "starved to death" is being used intentionally and extremely cynically by the Right to Life movement, just like their Republican politicians now use the term "culture of life" as a euphemism for their anti-abortion and anti-right to die agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Peace Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:45 PM Why can't this lady be allowed to die in peace? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:49 PM Because the Christian right, their politicians and their media whores won't let her die, as they believe is THEIR divinely ordained right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:26 PM Well well, well... Seems the Christian Right wants to be able to control life at both ends but couldn't care less about the middle??? Yup, get the friggin' kid born, then starve it, let it grow up in poverty surrounded by violence, takes it's education programs away, it after school; programs, it's breakfast program, it's, it's... Yeah, where are all you Right to Lifers once the kid is born? Well, I'll tell ya' where the heck you are. Bitchin' about having to pay yer fair share of taxes which might, just might, provide the bare necessities to that newly born child.. Bunch of crybaby, washrag, evil, God-less hypocrits as far as I can see... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:32 PM Notice how they never make an 85 year old grandmother in a persistent vegetative state whose nasty son just wants to get her out of the way for the inheritance, their "culture of life" cause of the moment? There are literally thousands of elderly people who are not able to make the decision for themselves to have feeding tubes removed--why not "save" their lives? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:28 PM Normal, GUEST... They, the Chrisian Right (haha) don't giave a danged about anything other than ripping off the working class.... And if they have to pull out one stupid, yet dividing, issue after another, they will do it... Any issue other than why it is that they are gettin' real freiggin' rich while every one else is going backwards... This all come down to money.... ... and they want it all. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Vinnie Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:01 AM Amos. Invest in a remedial reading class. Reread the post. I didn't say you had anything to say about abortion. I didn't say YOU should substitute those words. I said I would use those words. You don't like what I post? Hey asshole, try to guess how much I care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Peace Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:04 AM Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker Jimmy Swaggart Falwell Ho DARE you question the good hearts of these outstanding Americans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:10 AM Auggie - Thanks for clarification. Typos suck, don't they? Now I'm not offended at all because, regarding 2000, you're absolutely right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Dave'sWife Date: 20 Mar 05 - 04:41 AM My Grandmother is at present, lying in a hospital waiting to die after signing a DNR order and refusing any and all medications and interventions with the exception of a little pain medication once in a while. She may have days or maybe a couple of weeks. She is refusing food for the most part and is in peace. Her children are with her, as are some of her grandchildren, great-grandchildren and yes, even two Great-Great-Grandchildren have been by. I'm many thousands of miles awa, sadly. This situation with Terry makes me so profoundly sad. I wish to Christ she had one tenth the PEACE my Grandma is enjoying right now. While I am not all that fond of GUEST's manner of expression, Guest has one point. If you are old and your kids stand to inherit something..ain't nobody standing in the way of pulling the plug on you. Same goes if you are in a coma and somebody needs your organs. "Brain Death" keeps getting redefined and redefefined by the Medical profession to the point where now, they can and do 'harvest' the organs of a 'brain dead' person while their heart is still beating. You'd think Right-to-lifers would be freaking out about THIS practice. Nope. They aren't. Just unborn babies, Terry Schiavo and anyone else that can't talk back. Maybe they don't speak up about these live 'harvest' of organs because there is a shortage of organs. I dunno. I really don't. I just know that who and and who isn't 'Brain Dead" medically & legally can vary depending on who you ask and of what possible use the person is Dead. I think that most people's Living Wills are safe, despite Guests assertion that the Schiavo case means they are not. Remember, she had no written document. I do agree however, that none of us really have the facts of this case because both sides of this case keep spinning the facts. I do think the Husband has gone down a pretty rogh road and yes, he could have divorced her. the parents say he hasn't because he wants her 'money.' It makes my head spin. I just heard on the news that Dubbya plans to step in on this. Hooboy. Here we go again. of course, they could just be playing up some rumour for the prupose of sucking me into watching the next half hour of news. Could be, could be! This poor woman. Perhaps she and my Grandmother will walk hand in hand into Eternity together, and soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM Greetings All, I am a devout believer in God and in the message Jesus brought to us. That said, I find it very confusing that one can contend to be a Christian and support war. After all, as far as I was always told the rule that Moses bought down from the Mount said simply "Thou shall not kill". I do not recall the version that stated "Thou shall not kill, except" nor do I recall this caveat in the Gospel. In terms of the teachings of Jesus I have always been under the impression that one should offer the right cheek when struck on the left. Another of Jesus' messages was that we should treat others as we would wish to be treated. I, for one, would not wish to be fired upon or bombed. In the Christian message I learned and strongly believe in I was taught that we do not posses the wisdom to judge other people. That wisdom, in keeping with my belief, is God's and God's alone. I often times am deeply hurt by those that profess to be Christian and then judge my faith or the actions I undertake to celebrate it. I have yet to find where it is written that Jesus taught us to sustain life by measures born of man's (species not gender) science. To my way of thinking this is not an issue that the Federal Government has any legal or moral basis on which to be involved. The Florida Courts have made a decision based upon existing law, testimony, and cogitation. I haven't read the transcripts of the Court's proceedings but I can only assume that the wish of this woman to not have her life sustained by these measures was clearly established to the Court's satisfaction. This intent, as far as I understand, is one of the litmus tests involved in making such a decision. I would suggest that it is time those of us that feel that we should at the very least be allowed to die in accordance with our faith and wishes write our representatives in the Government and express our opinions. After all, Government now controls our life to a much greater extent then was ever intended by the founders of this Nation. I believe we should clearly indicate to these representatives that this issue is of such great importance that it will indeed effect our election decisions. It is not surprising to me that cultures of conservative theologies fear our system of morays and norms and wish to preclude it from further influencing the World. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: robomatic Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:48 AM Last night on the news they showed results of a poll that indicated that the vast majority of Americans are on the side of Terri's husband. They had a breakout of Americans who considered themselves evangelical and the vast majority of them are on the side of Terri's husband. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:00 AM A big *Amen*, Ed... Couldn't have said it any better... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM So if the vast majority of Americans support having the feeding tube removed, why are the Dubya Repubs going into overdrive on this one, especially when they know they won't win in federal court either? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM Here is why the Republicans intervened, from today's Boston Globe: "A one-page memo, distributed to Republican senators by party leaders, called the debate over Schiavo legislation ''a great political issue" that would appeal to the party's base, or core, supporters. The memo singled out Senator Bill Nelson, Democrat of Florida, who is up for reelection next year and is potentially vulnerable in a state President Bush won last year. ''This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," said the memo, which was reported by ABC News and later given to The Washington Post. ''This is a great political issue because Senator Nelson of Florida has already refused to become a cosponsor and this is a tough issue for Democrats." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:58 AM I find it depressing the way people seem so eager to come to such definite and hyperconfident attitudes about things like this,, and expressive them in such hate-filled ways. People on both sides. The impression that comes across from a lot of peiople posting here, and writing in the media, behind the obvious disgreement on actual issues, there seems to be a shared appetite for a kind of fundamentalism on both sides. Is tat really what America is like these days? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:09 AM And here are some excerpts from an article in today's LA Times:
By Peter Wallsten, Times Staff Writer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:30 AM Oops, sorry about the crap at the top of the post folks. Maybe a clone could take it out, and just leave the text excerpts? McGrath, there is a lot of shrillness in any political debate surrounding right to privacy issues like this. This isn't the first time the US has suffered it's way through really painful debates on whether or not the state has the right to make medical treatment decisions on behalf of individuals who aren't able to make or communicate their medical decisions to their care providers. This is a hot button issue for many of us who are going through, or already have gone through, the death of a family member that could possibly have been impacted by these federal shenanigans. The Right to Life movement, and their Republican politicians they helped elect, want to see their very narrow, ignorant, Christian fundamentalist religious beliefs regarding "the sanctity of all life" (weeeelll....except maybe the lives of the people we don't like, like death row inmates, the Iraqi and Afghan peoples, old ladies, etc etc), and wish to impose it upon all American citizens. They are attempting to use this case to overturn the last 20 years of legislation at the state level regarding end of life care, and deny the right for the dying (and their legal guardians) to choose to refuse and/or withdraw medical treatment. While the current bill being voted on in Congress this weekend somewhat limits the intervention to this single case, it also makes reference to others like it. The Senate refused to consider the House bill passed last week, that would have opened up the bill to any and all patients who are not able to make medical decisions for themselves. Whether people want to accept the fact or not that the Right to Life movement has catapulted this major legislation onto the federal front in the last few days, which will end up depriving all US citizens of the right for their legal guardians to make health care decisions on their behalf without state and federal intervention, it is happening nonetheless. It is being pushed through as a religious bill on behalf of the fascist Republican Christian fundamentalist constituency too--Tom DeLay absolutely gloated over the fact that the vote in the House would take place on Palm Sunday, and preached hate towards the husband from the press conference podium yesterday, invoking all sorts of Christian fundamentalist symbolism. In the wake of these bills having been proposed in numerous state legislatures around the country, after passage of this bill being proposed today, after the "Terri's Law" bill that Jeb Bush forced through the Florida legislature in 2003 (which was declared unconstitutional), and this extraordinary intervention by the federal legislative branch to overturn both state and federal judicial rulings in this case, I'd say people were idiots if they didn't think their right to medical privacy wasn't being invaded BIG TIME, and the right to make medical decisions on behalf of an incapacitated loved one for whom they are the legal guardian taken away from them by the Republican politicians so blatantly and cynically pandering to their Christian fundamentalist voter base. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Amos Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:26 PM It's a private family matter, and making a political footbll out of it should be a criminal invasion of privacy. It's bad enopugh the family is so split they had to wrassle in court. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 05 - 01:21 PM What I mean is, building up these oversimplified pictures of the people who might disgaree with you - if they're agin you on one thing they have to be agin you on all the others. Being anti-abortion has to mean being pro-war and pro-death and against welfare benefits and so forth; or from the other side, an equivalent package of heterogeous views. The idea being, I suppose, then you can relax because, since there is no point of contact, no shared values, there can be no real challenge involved. But life isn't as simple as that. Oh yes, there are always going to be people who fit snugly into any ewe assemble - but that is never going to be tey whole picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM What I mean is, there's this appetite for building up these oversimplified pictures of the people "on thebother side" - if they're agin you on one thing they have to be agin you on all the others. Being anti-abortion has to mean being pro-war and pro-death and against welfare benefits and so forth; or from the other side, an equivalent package of heterogeous views. The idea being, I suppose, then you can relax because, since there is no point of contact, no shared values, there can be no real challenge involved. But life isn't as simple as that. Oh yes, there are always going to be people who fit snugly into any stereotype we assemble - but that is never going to be the whole picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: robomatic Date: 20 Mar 05 - 02:01 PM McG: I think it is oversimplifying things to find people to be as simple as that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:19 PM Well, I'm sure glad that Osoma didn't circle this date to pull off another event 'cause no one would notice thru over the clamor... Bush could care less about this woman... Heck, when he was governor of Texas, he oversaw the exewcution of more women than were executed in the other 49 states combined... All Bush want is yet another emotionaly charged devisive issue to keep the peons at each other throats so they won't noticed that Bush and Boss Hog are raping and pilliaging the working class and the poor... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM And its workin' a treat, ain't it Bobert? Bush & The BuShites aren't entirely to blame for the situation- the collossal stupidity of the U.S. Population- or at least 50% of it- also factors into the equation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:45 PM Brucie said: Why can't this lady be allowed to die in peace? Terri Schiavo is dead. Has been for years. What is lying in a hospital bed in Florida is merely a damaged chemical apparatus with a historical connection to what was Terri Schiavo. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM But ain't using this sad case as a weapon against Bush and his mob just playing precisely the same game? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:54 PM McGrath, I don't think anyone who is fighting to allow this woman to die is using that as a political tool against Bush or anyone else for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:07 PM No, it was Bush who had to buddy up with the parents and it was Bush (Karl Tove) who say this as yet another major leage distration... These folks love distartion as much a magician needs to distract while he trick you... This has nothing to do with this poor woman's body... The spirit has been gone for the last 15 years... Yeah, all these Right-to-Lifers, the womans parent's inclided, see this as a wonderfull opportunity to stick it to the progressives and they are, by golly, going to do it... That is the most sickening about this... This poor woman's body has just become yet another Willie Horton for Karl Rove... And on Palm Sunday??? What a collasal misunderstanding about life, death, forgiveness and Salvation. If Jesus were here in the flesh and observing this spectickle that the Repubs have pulled off today, He would puke... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:35 PM Amazing how liberals want this woman to die and are all for literally executing her and yet will whine about capital punishment for convicted murderers. What a true double standard. What true complete bullshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Boab Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:51 AM A perspicacious and insightful intervention as always, Martin..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:51 AM I am for her parents and siblings having a say on the one side, and her husband having a say on the other side. They can thrash it out in the courts. Oh, wait, they did. For years. Everyone else on both sides of the issue should stay the hell away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:39 AM Greetings Martin, I can't speak for the "Liberals" all I can do is express my opinion and I do not want this woman to die but rather wish for the Federal Government not to; a). intervene in such a personal circumstance, b). intervene in a matter that the State has already adjudicated in accordance with their laws, and c). promote what is clearly a minority held social philosophy. The reality is that the vast majority of our federal legislators are lawyers and at the end of the day all this is going to do is require those of us that have already expressed our wishes formally to spend more money with….. you guessed it…… a lawyer to insure that our wishes are not circumvented by this new Federal Law and of course any subsequent amendments. Unfortunately, it seems that the legislative modus operandi here has been to create such a layered and convoluted system of laws so as to insure the intent is lost to the letter. Talk about job security! I see this as just another attempt on the part of Government to further reduce our personal freedoms. As was once the basis of the concept of "Free Speech" with-in our system; the Government does not give us the thoughts we have that culminate in speech therefore they cannot regulate such speech, the Government does not give us our life and therefore cannot regulate our decision as to how it may end, assuming that we ultimately have a say in how it ends anyway. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM OK, song challenge! The hospital staff is worried And the family is hurried But since she's not there to cry Let her die, let her die, let her die The woman is there no longer She won't feel the pangs of honger She's already gone, bye bye Let her die, let her die, let her die... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:50 PM There seems a kind of contradiction between saying "this woman died years ago, there's nothing there" on the one hand, and "this woman needs to be released from her suffering" on the other. It seems to me that it is possible to argue a case for euthanasia on either head - but not on both at the same time. "I don't think anyone who is fighting to allow this woman to die is using that as a political tool against Bush or anyone else" That may be true - but I'm not too sure that applies when it comes to the fighting by spectators, all the arguing about it by people who aren't directly involved. The idea of a quasi-proprietorial dispute between members of a family as to who has the right to decide for one of its members is a really strange one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Ebbie Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM Oh what a slippery slope. Remember when the US Supreme Court pronounced Dubya President? They said the identical thing then that (Senate Majority Leader) Frist says in this case: ... "a unique bill" that "should not serve as a precedent for future legislation." Yeah, right. It sets a precedent that will be argued as needed, from now on. Two Sources (Emphases mine, throughout) About this bill, John Conyers, Jr writes: ..."But if this legislation was only about principle, why would the Majority party be distributing talking points in the other body declaring that "this is a great political issue" and that by passing this bill, "the pro-life base will be excited."? "If the president really cared about the issue of the removal of feeding tubes, why would he have signed a bill in Texas that allows hospitals to save money by removing feeding tubes over a family's objection?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:49 PM McGrath, the Republicans have triggered a constitutional crisis here in the US by doing this slap down of the state judiciary in Florida. Also, it is being approximated by many sources in the mainstream press that there are as many as 35,000 people in any given year in the US in a persistent vegetative state just like this woman. Many of their families will decide to have medical treatments withdrawn, including feeding and hydration tubes. This case matters profoundly, on many, many levels both medically and legally. This is a much bigger deal than you can apparently wrap your head around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:16 PM McGrath, I don't really have any personal emotional investment in whether or not Ms. Schiavo is allowed to die myself, although it looks to me like the people here in the Mudcat who seem to be the most emotionally invested in this issue on the side of the husband have all gone through similar experiences themselves. For me, I am concerned with the gradual stipping away of our rights that is and has been happening here in this country over the last few years. To the extent that this issue concerns me, it is because I do not want the government interfering in my right to make end of life decisions for myself. And this case surely does set many dangerous precedents for the stripping way of individual rights by the government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:11 PM Ah, yes, but who's rights? I worry for Mr. Schiavo's more than anybody else's... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:11 PM Sorry, that should have read WHOSE rights. Not thinking today, too many numbers to crunch. That must be why I'm numb, ha ha! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Susu's Hubby Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:40 PM Although I do agree that W. and the congress is wrong on this case, I don't think that it's part of the "grand conspiracy" to eventually take away our rights. I just think that if the Gov't is trying to make the vehicle of marriage sacred (which I believe in)then it should apply to this case also if her husband has said that Terri has communicated her wishes to him before her condition presented itself. It doesn't matter what the husband has done in the fifteen years after the fact. The fact that he has still continued to be married to her and denied taking payoffs to let her continue to live proves to me that he truly cares about making Terri's last wish come true. As I have said before, the two shall become one..... Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:51 PM H, if your post is in any way a response to my last post, I have not suggested, or even inferred that there is a "grand conspiracy", to use your words, to take our rights away. But there is an undeniable trend in that direction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Susu's Hubby Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:04 PM It was not directed at you Carol. Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bill D Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM The implications of all this go WAY beyond what happens to this poor woman. The conservatives are milking the situation to get leverage on other matters concerning other 'control of body' issues. They want to be able to 'shop' for sympathetic judges, rather than be subject to a plain law that might not favor them. ...So they got congress to put it in the judicial system! I don't doubt that many are sincere about their concern, but there MUST come a point at which 15 years of the doctors who are on the scene saying "there IS no hope" will prevail. They are trying to use 'opinions' of some who have looked at home videos to bolster the idea that "she 'seems' to be responsive"....*sigh*.... Some people just want certain facts to be true, so they gerrymander what the hear & see to MAKE it true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bill D Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM (I listened to the House debate live last night....if you compare the compassionate, reasonable summary Steny Hoyer made to the slanted, sanctimonious little emotion-tugging bit of crap by Tom DeLay, you'd see what is passing for reason in this) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bill D Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:24 PM what, me? opinionated? naaawwwwwwwwwwww! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:31 PM And has anyone pointed out that the conservatives have been on and bandwagen for marriage (especially between a man and a woman) for some time now and here when "marriage" doesn't fit nicely into their little ploy to grasp yet more power by keeping their base charged up, it don't mean jack???? Again, yet another supreme case of hipocrisy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:04 PM Just because bad people with bad motives may support something doesn't mean that thing is a bad thing. Just because Hitler was a vegetarian doesn't mean that eating meat has to be a matter of principle for all decent people. As I'm understand it, what's involved here is a kind of final appeal process, and the issue is whether it is right to ensure that the lady is dead before that appeal process can be concluded. That sounds like jumping the gun to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:33 PM No, McG, I wouldn't say keeping someone alive is a bad thing... But from all has come out from the medical community on this woman's condition, her brain is so damaged that there is 0% of any chance of recovery. She went way too long with oxygen and given the 15 years that her body has been in this state, there is good reason to think the spirit has longs moved on... If that is the case then keeping the body alive borders on tinkering around with stuff we usually leave up to God.... Yeah it's tough, especially when, and I hate to sound paranoid here, the right wing in this country has used every tear-jerkin, devisive issue it can to centralize power... I think that is what makes me angriest about this. Here these same folks will strap someone into an electric chair and literally make their heads catch on fire and explode and then say they are so friggin' pro-life... Meanwhile back at in Florida, the scene of the crime where George W. Bush's lawyers highjacked out democracy, a poor husband, who has gone the extra mile in his wife's behalf, is being told he doesn't matter??? This very sorry story should have never been able to find the light of day... Had it been my Judy in the two months perceeding her death in 1996 I would be serving time in the penitentury right about now for murder... I sho nuff would... Like I have said over and over... When you have gone thru hospice with someone you love, it changes yer perspective forever... I have seen the clips of her husband where he was taking this women's body out of the hospital to places trying to get her back... It isn't as if this guy just went out and said "Heck with her"... I was watchin' some film the other night where he had taken her someplace long after she sustained her brain damage and I was thinkin' that he has certainly been thru a lot... My Judy lived 17 months after her diagnosis. The first 12 months we had hope and then things turned poorly. The last 5 months were tough on the three of us: Judy, her mom and me. The last 2 months??? Oh, my God... Where were this woman's parents when the husband was taking her this pl;ace ot that place. No, we don't see them in the story... But we see this dedicated man. Even a year later he is still fighting to get his wife back... For folks who haven't been thru this a year is like a century... I am 100% sure that if this woman's spirit could communicate it would be saying, "Quit embarrassing me and let my body go." Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:41 PM McGrath, the case has alread been taken all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decided that the matter should be handled by the state courts, which had already heard the case several times. There is nothing premature about this case. On the other hand, this case... Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support ...in which life support was removed by the hospital against the wishes of the mother in this case, because of a law in Texas that allows hospitals to remove life support in cases where the family can't pay the medical expenses, is something we should be upset about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Once Famous Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:53 PM bobert, I hear you're married to a man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Ebbie Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:58 PM Did you hear that Marvin's wife left him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Ebbie Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM Sorry. My apologies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Once Famous Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:05 PM Ebbie, Ebbie, Ebbie. My what vaginal dryness does to the female brain. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:14 PM You heard wrong, Martin.... Maybe you need to get yer hearin' aid checked out... And, BTW, I know I am speaking for my late wife, Judy, who was from Yunks-town, Ohio, and didn't hold back no punches. Yeah, if she had walked into the pudder room and read what you just said she'd have said. "My Bobert's more man than you could be if you lived to be a 1000 years old. He is da man!" Yeah, that's what she would have told you, Martin. That's exactly what she would have told you... And I never argued with her 'cause she was always right... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:28 AM You've got a legal system in the States where cases seem to go round in circles, and still end up sometimes with grotesquely wrong results. (So have lots ofther countries.)That's a problem you need to sort out all right. But cutting the Gordian knot by preempting thate legal system by ensuring that the person involved dies first is no way to solve that prblem. And that could have implications for other cases similar to the one Carol linked to. But why aren't the people who so are animated about the case involving Terri Schiavo, on both sides - the good people I mean, not the cynics and the opportunists - united in screaming to high heaven about the issues involved in cases like the one Carol linked to? Instead of demonising each other? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: katlaughing Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:52 AM Here's an excellent, imo, op/ed piece from a Ft. Wayne, Indiana paper online: Congress as doctor Congress' decision to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case marks a disturbing federal government intrusion into an individual's health care. And it has frightening implications for the separation of powers between the legislative and judicial branches. Clearly politicians determined to prevent Schiavo's husband from making the gut-wrenching decision to remove life-sustaining feeding tubes cared more about scoring political points than following the rule of law. Nineteen Florida judges have ruled that Michael Schiavo has the right to cease using machines to keep his wife alive in her vegetative state. The federal courts had already declined to hear the case, and the rightward leaning U.S. Supreme Court upheld that decision. Some Americans may be surprised to learn neither the House nor Senate bothered to gather a majority of its members' votes in passing this midnight legislation. The House approved the measure 203-58, with 174 members absent. Only three senators were present when the Senate used its unanimous consent rule to approve the legislation, though any one of the 100 U.S. senators could have forced a real vote. The implications are frightening. Unhappy with the decisions of state and federal courts, Congress passed a law sending the case to yet another court. What's to stop Congress from continuing to move any case from court to court until its members get the decision they want? While conservative groups hoping to keep Terri Schiavo alive challenge the motives of her husband, they ignore the irrefutable judgment of health-care experts. As explained in last year's Florida Supreme Court decision overruling a state law meant to overrule her husband's decision: "Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid-1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years." More important, the court ruled that to its best judgment, Terri Schiavo would not want to remain on life support. Yet members of Congress have declared they know more about Schiavo's wishes than her husband, more about her medical condition than the doctors who examined her. It is only natural for Schiavo's parents to hold out for that miracle, to pray for it every day. And decisions about ending life support are far from knee-jerk. Hospitals and hospices must follow strict requirements to ensure that the patient has no hope of recovery. As with many families, the choice is not unanimous. In this case, the health-care providers have agreed they have no substantive argument to keep Terri Schiavo on life support, and her guardian must make the final choice. This is a matter for Schiavo's guardian and health-care experts to decide. Congress should have stayed out of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 22 Mar 05 - 08:32 AM Greetings McGrath…., You are absolutely correct in your admonishment of our system. This downright hypocrisy on the part of the supporters of this attempted imposition of some imagined "Right to Life" by not voicing loud concerns over this case in Texas is troubling indeed. Where was Tom Delay and his interfering philosophies in this case? Unfortunately, our politicians seem more interested in pandering to any interest group that in their mind will insure the continuation of their power then they do in truly debating and deciding what social policies the people of the United States of America (ironically they very people whose interests they were elected to promote) wish to see promoted. Yet they hold the later up as one of their great accomplishments in Iraq. The prize of power is so much more coveted (and seductive I suppose) than the actually serving of the constituents. Campaigns are waged based on market research formulated strategies rather than the discussion of issues. Unfortunately this approach has created campaigns that, rather than focus on the candidates successes and philosophies, focus solely, or so close to solely that it is indistinguishable from solely, on the criticism of the opposition. Again we, whom I believe are indeed the majority, who find this direction troubling need to speak up and speak up loudly. We need to do so in the Pubs, on the street, in our music, at the town meetings, and anywhere else we find an ear. We need to reassess this two party system that has garnered so much power over us. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM Where were the people on either side when it came to defending the rights of that baby and those parents? I'm sure there are people on both sides over the Sciavo case who would be in agreement about a case like that other one - shouldn't they be searching each other out, and combining their efforts over the things they agree about. I agree, there seems an awful lot of hypocrisy around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 22 Mar 05 - 10:47 AM The parents of the baby fought as long and hard as they could. But they were poor, and couldn't afford lawyers anymore than they could the medical care. Keep voting Republican, people. This is the world they are going to give you. Euthanasia for the poor, and "only the best" for those who can afford it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:01 AM So where were the people on both sides who claim to care so much for human rights? And who in some cases surely do actually care. Isn't it time they recognised they have more in common with each other than with the people who manipulate and use their concern. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:23 AM I don't understand how you can say the legal system is being pre-empted, McGrath. It has been artificially prolonged way beyond what pretty much everyone else in the country would receive, by the politicians. The Schiavo case has been heard in court, many times already, all the way up to the highest court in the land, and all of the courts have agreed. The legislature has made special laws just for this one woman that do not apply to any of the rest of us... just to her case. Her case has received more time and attention from the courts and the legislature than any of the rest of us could ever hope to expect (and most of us would hope that we would not receive this attention if it were us). And most of the people in the US agree with the husband in this case anyway. Not only is the court system being perverted for the political gain of a few politicians, these very same politicians are undermining the authority of the courts by not complying with the courts' decisions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:42 AM McGrath of Harlow said, in part: You've got a legal system in the States where cases seem to go round in circles, and still end up sometimes with grotesquely wrong results. (So have lots ofther countries.)That's a problem you need to sort out all right. But cutting the Gordian knot by preempting thate legal system by ensuring that the person involved dies first is no way to solve that prblem. M of H, I think you're right--and you're wrong. Your first two sentences above are perfectly well founded. But the illegitimate cutting of the Gordian knot here (the "preempting") is being done on the other side. Congress's recent action is not only politically motivated but very bad legally. US Constitutional law calls for other states as well as the federal government to give full faith and credit to the actions of state courts (Florida in this case). The Supreme Court can under some circumstances have a last say after the state courts have spoken, but has declined to deal with the issues involved, in effect saying that the NINETEEEN Florida judges over FIFTEEN years have provided appropriate due process in the case. In my opinion the new legislation is not only ill-advised but unconstitutional. I think those who carried it through even knew this, but indulged in gamesmanship, for two purposes: One, hoping to get a put-back-the-tube order pending a hearing, even though the result of the hearing is likely to be a declaration for the husband and/or one of unconstitutionality of the new law; and two, for political polarization purposes. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! Wrong in fact, wrong constitutionally, and wrong in motivation. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:33 PM If true that's irrelevant. There is still a legal process under way, even if people may consider it to be improper or politically motivated. It is easy to imagine other life and death situations where very different battle lines might be drawn, for example where capital punishment was involved, and some kind of final appeal had not been completed, and an execution was scheduled in advance of a hearing. (In fact, as I understand it, that situation does occur from time to time.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:39 PM No, McGrath, that's the point... it is not a legal process. What is being done is very much in violation of our legal process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:37 PM But surely determining that very thing is part of the legal process? If this same scenario was being played out in the kind of case you linked to, Carol, and the courts down in Florida were trying to make sure the life support was switched off on a child to save money, would it be such a black and white issue, and so inescapably right that people should respect that local court decision, and that "states rights" should prevail? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:47 PM But surely determining that very thing is part of the legal process? No. In this case, it is a part of the political process. It should have been left to the courts, but it was not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:49 PM ...and that, really, is what many of us are having quite a problem with. The legal system has been subverted by politicians who are only acting out of political agendas that serve only themselves and not any of the people involved in this tragedy. It is most certainly not in keeping with our legal processes in this country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Alice Date: 22 Mar 05 - 01:55 PM Tom Delay's own ethics issues were taken off the headlines because of the drama created in Congress over the Shiavo case. Pure political manipulation. But, what do you expect from him? It is part of his pattern of behavior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:10 PM If this same scenario was being played out in the kind of case you linked to, Carol, and the courts down in Florida were trying to make sure the life support was switched off on a child to save money, would it be such a black and white issue, and so inescapably right that people should respect that local court decision, and that "states rights" should prevail? These are two very different kinds of issues, McGrath. In the Texas case, there is a law that very well could be unconstitutional, that allows hospitals to make decisions that should be made by families. That law could be tested, and it could be ruled on by the Supreme Court. If the Supreme Court determined that the law was unconstitutional (as I think it may be), the law would be struck down. In the Schiavo case, there are no laws that are being tested for their possibility of being unconstitutional except for the laws that Congress created specifically for Terri Schiavo, and that don't apply to anyone else. And it is my opinion that those laws are unconstitutional, and should be struck down because they violate the "equal protection under the law" part of the Constitution. I think, if you are going to give your input into this subject, you really need to become much more informed about our legal and political processes than you are, and also become much more informed about the Schiavo case than you currently are. Because you are arguing points that really do not pertain to any of the factors that are relevant in this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: DougR Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:24 PM Last night on CNN's Larry King show, King said to Terri's husband, "the feeding tube has been removed and she will starve to death. Isn't that correct?" The husband said, "No, she will not die of starvation. She will die a natural death. Her electrolytes will gradually shut down and she will pass away peacefully." (not a direct quote). My question:wouldn't she continue to live if the feeding tube is replaced? Is it proper to say she will not starve to death if the feeding tube continues to be shut-off? Martin: It IS a puzzlement, isn't it? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM The details are important, of course they are. But sometimes there's a danger of missing seeing the wood for the trees. My knowledge of this case is based on media coverage - but then I think that is pretty general. In my case it's primarily the Guardian and the BBC, both of which have been playing it fairly straight down the middle and presenting the various versions of the case reasonably dispassionately. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:29 PM Since you seem to be alluding to Martin's question about the death penalty, DougR, I will give my opinion on that one, also. My opinion is that until and unless it can be one hundred percent guaranteed that the person who is being charged is guilty (and not just "beyond a reasonable doubt", as things stand right now), there should be no death penalty. Innocent people should not be executed for crimes that are committed by others. That is a pro-life stance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM My knowledge of this case is based on media coverage Yes. I can tell that by the way you are making your points. In my opinion, the media coverage will not help you understand what is going on with this situation. You need to understand how our system works in order to understand what is going on, and why it is so important to so many of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 02:45 PM Also, DougR, what is your position on the law in Texas (that, from what I have heard, was signed into law by GW Bush) that allows hospitals to remove life support against the wishes of the family? I haven't heard anything at all from you on that subject, and being the pro-life person I'm sure you are, I assume you would be outraged by such a law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:23 PM Hmmmmmm? Wonder where Dougie went? I swear he was just here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Once Famous Date: 22 Mar 05 - 05:41 PM He's probably busy leading his life instead of giving some guy a hummer while on Mudcat, bobert. CarolC, beyond a reasonable doubt is how the system works. If you don't like the system, I would suggest that you get out of your trailer more often and find a way to change it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 06:25 PM Yes, that is how the system works now. And that is why I am against the death penalty. And I will be until that part can be fixed. As I said, innocent people should not ever be executed for crimes that are committed by someone else. That is a pro -life stance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM For whatever it's worth, I'm going to venture a legal prediction in the Schiavo case. I would be greatly surprised if the Circuit Court of Appeals should grant the appeal, and thus order the District Court to change its ruling, and allow (require?) the reinsertion of the feeding tube. Why? Here's why: The ruling by the Florida District Court was a ruling on a motion for emergency action pending the hearing of the case. In ruling on such a motion the judge has to, "on the fly", so to speak, size up whether the movant/plaintiff is likely to prevail when there is a final hearing. The judge is forced to make that prediction, just by the nature of the emergency relief asked for. It is seldom that an appellate court takes such a matter out of the trial court's hands, and does or should upset that kind of a decision. In this case the District Court judge said, in effect, "It seems unlikely that, on hearing, the plaintiffs (the parents, if you will) will be able to show that Terri Schiavo's interests did not recieve due legal process in the courts of Florida" when over a period of fifteen years nineteen separate Florida judges had dealt with the case, through numerous hearings, and all of them ruled in favor of the husband's position, and it was appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States, who declined to find such a legal failure. It is, of course, POSSIBLE that, when the hearing in the District Court is finally held, Judge Whittemore might find a lack of due process, but that seems unlikely, and we're not dealing with that eventuality at this point. That's a fight for another day. The District Court did not at this time rule on the constitutionality of the hurried and badly written jurisdictional legislation under which the case was presented to him, I expect largely because courts mightily resist making such constitutional findings. But that issue is there, and is a VERY real issue. In the end it may be found that the District Court did not even have jurisdiction because the legislation was unconstitutional. And even if the Circuit Court of Appeals were to rule (as I do not expect) that the District Court was wrong in his ruling on the emergency request pending the hearing, the matter would be taken immediately to the Supreme Court, and for the reasons above I don't believe the Supreme Court would go along with their reversal. Actually, I'm sure that whoever loses in the Circuit Court of Appeals will run posthaste to the Supreme Court. I say all of the above based on 36 years of experience working for a US District Court, in daily contact with legal proceedings, and many times with such requests for temporary relief pending final resolution. No, I'm not a lawyer, but I can represent that I am a well-informed layman on this subject. It must be remembered, of course, that (aside from legalities) there are and will be tremendous political pressure on both sides. The courts should--and I say "should"--rule entirely on the legal facts and questions, but judges are human and are sometimes swayed by pressure. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM The death penalty in any circumstances is not reconcilable with a truly pro-life position. ............................... I think I do understand "why it is so important to so many of us", Carol. But I think that that in itself can get in the way of seeing the whole picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 22 Mar 05 - 07:56 PM Well, the whole picture, McGrath, really boils down to the question of how Terri Schiavo's best interests can be served. And since Terri, herself, communicated to her husband that she would not ever want to be kept alive in such a condition, and given the fact that the courts have accepted that this is what Terri Schiavo has communicated to her husband about her wishes, the "whole picture" is best served by honoring the wishes of Terri Schiavo on the subject of her intentions in this matter. Unless you don't believe in an individual's right to make end of life decisions for him or herself. And if that is the case, you are completely at odds with the majority of people in the US on this matter. And since it is our system, and we are the ones who have to live with it, it really is our decision to make and not yours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: mg Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:12 AM I think the problem here is that it isn't an end of life issue...she is not dying. I don't have the answer here but this is different say than someone dying of cancer or AIDS. She could live 50 more years perhaps... mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:20 AM Greetings McGrath…., From my prospective, and I would venture a guess that I am not alone in this, it was the hastened specific case action on the part of the Federal Legislature that has created the threat to our freedoms and therefore my concerns. Greetings Mary Garvey, She may indeed live on for another 50 years however her wishes to not sustain her life in this way has been established by Florida Courts and now a Federal Court has found that she was not denied due process in this determination. Greetings All, Unfortunately it seems that the parents of this young lad in Texas were not disposed of sufficient resources to fight the law. It also seems that the folks in support of the current administration, the very folks that one would have thought would have championed the "Right to Life" cause in the Texas scenario seem as though they did not want to create an issue for the administration by doing so. I suppose an argument that the supporters of the reinsertion of the feeding tube would put forth is that there seems to be differing opinions as to Terri's future. I think one could also speculate that the future of the young lad in Texas was not absolute one way or another. In any event when political pandering interferes with our established mechanisms for adjudication of differences we are in deep social trouble. What's next? Am I going to be forced to accept medical treatment that violates my deepest beliefs simply because "Congress" has so written and the "President" has so signed? I have never owned a gun but I am seriously considering purchasing one along with a single bullet. Irrespective of the laws of this country I will not have this temporary temple sustained by man's scientific means or apparatuses as it now seems that my expressed wishes can be questioned and potentially overturned by the Government. I often wonder that if there was not such a large cache of money available for this Florida woman's care would there even be a fight? I suspect that the institution(s) that would provide the long term care would not wish to do so without being properly (their determination) compensated. Three years ago a Great Uncle of mine was admitted to hospital with a cerebral hemorrhage. The damage his brain sustained was severe and he was unable to swallow or communicate. The Doctors at the hospital convinced my Great Aunt that there was indeed a possibility of his recovery and suggested a feeding tube be used as "death by starvation and dehydration was merciless". They continued to hold for six months the prognosis that my Uncle would recover. Then his insurance would no longer pay for his care and ironically and immediately their prognosis changed. The feeding tube was removed and his body passed peacefully. His soul had already been called. There is not a single person that could convince me that the "prognosis" was not conveniently held until it was no longer to the institutions financial advantage to hold it. When I couple the motives I perceive to be spurious as some portion is financially based with the pandering to a minority interest on the part of our Congress I am truly concerned about the future of our society. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:32 AM "If the Christian fundamentalists win this one ..., your living will is gonna be worth about as much as your toilet paper. This is silly. And it ignores the one, fundamental, determining factor of the entire case -- Terry Shiavo has(d) no living will. If she had, there would BE no case. There would be no arguement -- no arguement from parents, no arguement from "husband", no arguement from courts, and no arguement from legislators. The whole point is that she HAS(D) no living will. I AM a fundemental"ist" Christian. I HAVE a living will. I know LOTS of Christians who have living wills. Get a clue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:19 AM Greetings John Hardly, I think it is you that need "Get a clue" as over a dozen Judges in the Florida Judicial system have determined that indeed Terri's wishes were to not sustain her life in this fashion. This by default is a confirmation of her "Living Will". And yet there is still argument over the application of her wishes. Prior to the spurious intervention of the Congress, the United States Supreme Court decided to not hear the case. In effect affirming the Florida Court's actions and decisions. Now, post this asinine action of Congress, a Federal Court has still twice affirmed the Florida Court's decision. At what point do we follow the established system and accept the decisions even if they are not in agreement with our own? Or do we simply continue to pressure Congress to succumb to minority interests and change the rules depending upon their own personal philosophies or those of a perceived voting block? And if we do that what assurances do we then have that other aspects of our freedoms will not come under direct attack in promoting other minority interests? Would you like another to challenge your "Living Will" and sustain your life in direct defiance of your wishes? The action of our Congress this past weekend clearly opens that door. Think about it. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM she has(d) no living will. That is still the essence of the debate. If she had had one before this, there would have been no need for the courts to decide her wishes for her. I have a living will. It is at no risk of being mis-interpreted. It is multi-page, complete with legal executor (the law firm that drew it). The whole point is that Terry Shiavo did not have one. That is why people from both sides feel they have the prerogative to voice their opinions on the matter. What you are asking of me is completely opposite of the situation. I have a living will. Nothing has to be decided of my wishes should something happen to me. Those wishes are in black and white. Terry's were not. That is the nature of the arguement. You chose to believe those who think she did not want extreme measures. Others disagree with you. Neither of you has the concrete, black and white that you are claiming is at risk. There is no black and white document -- therefore, the legal effectiveness of a true living will is not at risk in this case. There IS no living will in this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Alice Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:08 AM Terri Shiavo communicated her wishes. Her husband was not the only witness to hear what she wanted. It was after funerals of relatives that she discussed not wanting to be kept alive if she was in a vegative state. Her parents are not respecting a decision she made before her cardiac arrest. Her parents are focussed more on their grief in losing her and ignoring her expressed decision. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Alba Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:11 AM 19 Judges actually have heard the Case Ed. I am confused about one issue though: I read that Terri's father had said she responded to him asking her if she wished to go for a Drive. If this is the case then.....can't Terri express her opinion regarding her Life in whatever manner she is able to? That surely takes the "living will", Spouse, Parents, Courts and Congress out of the picture...if this statement is correct. Have I heard this correctly? Has it been confirmed by the Medical Staff at the Hospice that Terri is respnosive to questions? Blessings to all Jude |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM "Terri Shiavo communicated her wishes. Her husband was not the only witness to hear what she wanted. It was after funerals of relatives that she discussed not wanting to be kept alive if she was in a vegative state. Her parents are not respecting a decision she made before her cardiac arrest. Her parents are focussed more on their grief in losing her and ignoring her expressed decision." But not in writing. Not legally. That's what the wrangling is all about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Alice Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:14 AM Jude, she is not consciously responsive to anything. Medical staff says she feels nothing, no pain, no hunger, no thirst. As mentioned before, much of her brain has been replaced with spinal fluid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:20 AM Greetings John Hardly, I must disagree. An oral contract has been held in our society as being as binding as a written one. Terri's oral expression of her wishes is no less valid a living will than a written multi page document with "legal executor". The difference is in establishing her intent and the validity thereof. That is why we have a mediation process, the Judiciary. This process was indeed followed and her due process entitlements were satisfied by the Florida State Courts as found by now two Federal Courts and I believe by default when the United States Supreme Court decided, prior to the Congress' action, not to hear the case. The piece of legislation (I hesitate to call it a law as its legitimacy has yet to be determined) passed this weekend clearly called into question the determination of Terri's wishes as found by the Florida Courts. What makes you think that another piece of legislation could not be passed to question your written intents if it were in a minority interest to do so? I completely understand the second guessing of our Judicial System as it is with-in human nature to question the validity of any decision one does not agree with however this human frailty should not be cause for any action such as was passed this past weekend by our Congress. As far as there being no "black and white document" to refer to and therefore this absence being the sole reason for the questions I think you are being a bit naïve. Our laws are written documents, in black and white if you will, and yet every day their intent and applications are questioned in our Courts. This is our system of checks and balances. Congress clearly upset this balance when they intervened and they did so simply to pander to a minority interest group. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Alba Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:21 AM Thanks Alice, I was getting comfused when I heard that statement. Blessings Jude |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:31 AM But when there is not a written contract, and there are dissenters, it becomes necessary for the courts to decide (as they have). The fact that in a democracy such as ours there is other recourse is not a bad thing. Having been the victim of a fixed trial myself, I have less faith in the supremacy of the judiciary. I like the notion that there is an ability to appeal a court's decision. I like the idea that the legislative branch can check and balance the judiciary. When the courts see it your way it is easy to want to grant them sovereinty. Wait until they decide against you and then talk to me of their wisdom. Incidentally, I'm conflicted about this case -- but I'm not conflicted about the efficacy of a true living will. If there had been a true living will, this whole case would not even be happening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:40 AM Alba said: I read that Terri's father had said she responded to him asking her if she wished to go for a Drive. If this is the case then.....can't Terri express her opinion regarding her Life in whatever manner she is able to? The question is a hypothetical one: IF the father's statement is correct. 1. Did he in fact make the statement you say you read? 2. When did the incident supposedly happen? 3. Were there other witnesses, as there were to her expressed "no extraordinary measures" statements at funerals, etc.? How many, and who were they? 4. When and in what context did he report it? To one of the Florida courts that heard the case? To a newsperson? 5. If to a court, were corroborating witnesses called? His statement, if unsupported by other witnesses, won't necessarily carry a whole lot of weight. If he reported this in one of the previous court hearings, evidently the judge or other trier of the fact didn't believe him. If he reported it after the previous state court hearings were all completed, that in itself calls his credibility into question. The incident you read that he had reported (whenever it is supposed to have happened, or whenever reported) seems to fly in the face of the medical evidence, again calling its credibility into question. Incidentally, I just re-read your post. You say that he said "she responded". "Responded" could mean anything, and is a matter of perception in any case. "Responding" could be blinking, could be nodding, could be smiling, or even I'm sure he would wish) it could be speaking, "Sure, dad!" A number of medical experts have testified that such things perceived as blinking, smiling, nodding, etc. are often found in vegetative cases, and are typical results merely of reflexes and so on; that they do not necessarily mean that there has been communication or consciousness. If so, such a thing's happening at a time when he said something about going for a ride would be purely coincidence. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:01 AM John Hardly said: Having been the victim of a fixed trial myself, I have less faith in the supremacy of the judiciary. I like the notion that there is an ability to appeal a court's decision. First, remember there have been (as I understand it) NINETEEN different state court judges who ruled for the husband. Can it be suggested that they were all "fixed"? Yes, there should be the right of appeal. And there have been appeals, and appeals, and hearings, and hearings. The case has gone through a plethora of proceedings. All the way to the Supreme Court, twice. As to a legislature's having "the ability to check and balance the courts", that's not the proper function of a legislature. The legislature is there to set general patterns of procedure, for the whole society. They are really not supposed to be stepping into individual cases. What's more, the ill-considered, rushed, badly motivated, and badly written legislation of last Sunday is also wrong in that it violates the full faith and credit principle of the Constitution. The Constitution reserves to the states all powers not specifically given to the federal government. Florida's courts exercised their function, and Congress has no business trying to do an end run around it. Incidentally, I'm conflicted about this case -- but I'm not conflicted about the efficacy of a true living will. If there had been a true living will, this whole case would not even be happening. No question, John, if there had been documentary evidence of her intentions it would have been better, and might have saved a great deal of time and expense. But well-attested oral statements (as in this case) can be very persuasive, and have been found so in this case. A written document, while assuredly a good thing, is not necessary. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Greg F. Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:03 AM If she had [a living will]...There would be ... no arguement from [her] parents... Puh-leeze. If you can make an idiotic statement like this, you obviously have not payed any attention whatsoever as this travesty has played out for over 15 years. In addition, your assumption that a written document would not have been contested just as hotly by these loonies- family and pressure group loonies together- is naive at best in light of "past practice". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 23 Mar 05 - 11:08 AM The most difficult aspect of this case is that the public at large, our Congress, and the mainstream media, can't seem to be able to separate the moral issues of this case from the legal issues of this case. The legal side has done, repeatedly, what it should have done. Adjudicate this matter through the courts, because there was no living will or advance health care directive, and the person's legal proxy (the husband), had his decision challenged in the courts when the family (and the husband IS the family too!) couldn't agree on withdrawing medical treatment. So, when there is a dispute in a case where a family cannot agree on medical treatment options, and there is no written record of what the patient's wishes are, sadly, they sometimes take their dispute into the public realm of the courts. Now, I believe both sides in this case have strong moral arguments. But at the end of the day, only one person (the legal proxy), has the LEGAL right to make the decision on behalf of the patient. That is why the medical profession is nearly unanimous about this case, and the doctors backing the Schindlers are viewed by the majority of the medical profession as being a minority of extremists with a political agenda (like Senate majority leader Bill Frist), and not the best interests of the patient and the family. The medical profession ALWAYS trys to determine what it is the patient themselves want/would have wanted as the primary thing in these decisions. My mother's doctor, when she was dying, would call my mother on the phone all the time, to discuss whether the treatments being proposed were OK with her. We changed my mother's living will/advance care directive numerous times over the past 5 years that lead up to her recent death. Her doctor was prepared to fight us, her family, if he felt we weren't honoring HER wishes. That is the #1 concern to the doctors--that whatever is done, that it be done in accordance with the wishes of the patient, even when the patient's family disagrees with it. That is how it should be. That this family took this into the public realm like this shows, to me, just how screwed up they are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM I think the problem here is that it isn't an end of life issue...she is not dying. I don't have the answer here but this is different say than someone dying of cancer or AIDS. She could live 50 more years perhaps... mg It is an end of life issue. Terri communicated to her husband that should she ever be in the condition she is in now, she would not want her life to be prolonged. That is, she would want her life to end. So the question is whether or not Terri Schiavo has the right to make that determination for herself. That is an "end of life issue". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Ebbie Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:22 PM Someone suggested to me that in Terry Schiavo's case, removing the tube is a case not of ending her life, but a means of shortening her dying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:36 PM "A written document, while assuredly a good thing, is not necessary." But, again, it would have made the courts unnecessary in this case, and that, again, is what is at issue. There would be no room for contesting the decision. Besides, again, I am contesting the notion that this case would call into question the validity of such a document (as one 'catter stated above, and which I've been addressing all along). This case, no matter how it is decided, will not make future living wills invalid. Nor, as alleged by the poster to whom I refer, does fundamental Christianity have any problem with living wills. I have one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:18 PM Any determination made by judges is always provisional up until the final end of the whole legal process. That's the actual end, regardless of whether it may be being prolonged in what may seem an improper or even unconstitutional way. Terminating the process before that happens by, in this case, bringing about the death of the lady at the centre of it, is a bit analogous to stopping the count in an election before the recounts have been completed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM well said, MofH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:44 PM Actually, I think that is a rather strange analogy, but I have to say, McGrath you don't seem to be grasping what the context is of these events. Your usually succinct posts have been muddled and bizarre on this one. Perhaps it's a lack of understanding of how the US systems work? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:09 PM Sometimes paying too much attention to the context can confuse matters. Too much going on, too many things to take into account. The analogy I gave may be strange, but I think it's quite apt. In both cases you have people who are so concerned to get the right outcome that they are willing to play fast and loose with the process. Which I understand is actually "how the US systems work" from time to time. There probably are some situations where thinking that way is appropriate, but I can't see this as being one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM Greetings John, Do you honestly believe that Terri's parents would not have contested a written document that conveyed the very same wishes that nineteen Florida State Judiciaries found were legitimately conveyed orally? I cannot be critical of her parents for contesting this. Terri is their daughter and I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in that they honestly believe that Terri would wish to have her life prolonged by these measures. Unfortunately, after great cogitation, the Florida Courts affirmed Terri's oral expression of her wishes. My concern has, and continues to be the overstepping of Legislative Authority on the part of Congress to force this into Federal Court. This is nothing short of verdict shopping and to subvert our civil mediation process like this is nothing short of political pandering. And again the fact that one's advanced health care directives are formally recorded now means very little as a result of this abuse. One need only to look at the dissenting opinion of the three judge panel in the Eleventh Circuit, the basis of which was that by not hearing the appeal the Court was not acting in accordance with Congress' wishes, to see that there is an interest group that wishes for this case to be decided in some fashion other than in accordance with tested law. Having been divorced twice and having had my fair share involuntary exposure to the Courts I am in no way a believer in the pure integrity of the judicial system. That said, there have been numerous proceedings over the last fifteen years and each has resulted in a decision that Terri indeed would not want her life prolonged in this fashion. If there had been a written document that stated these wishes all her parents would have needed to do is to question the validity of the document and the subsequent testimony required would have been nearly the same as that which has transpired in the proceedings over the last fifteen years. I am not entitled to have an opinion as to whether or not Terri should have a feeding tube reinserted. That is clearly her decision, or in her absence that of her legal guardian. I am, however entitled to have an opinion about Congress' action this past weekend. When our personal freedoms are assaulted and curtailed in this way, and our legal system subverted for the purpose of pandering to a minority interest, we need to carefully reassess whom we elect to represent us. I would feel this way regardless of which side of the issue Congress' action supported. Greetings McGrath…, The case had reached its legal process end. The problem is simply there are those that do not like the final decision and to further complicate the matter Congress pandered to these folks and changed the procedure. So to use your analogy Congress' action was tantamount to redefining mathematical science in the midst of counting or recounting election ballots. This is a very dangerous precedent, one the likes of which we will not feel the full effect of for years to come. Think about it, muster enough Congressional support (reads provide enough political contributions) and one would be able to change the rules anytime they wish in order to bring their agenda to fruition. Living in a society that avails this to some and not all is very frightening to me. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:07 PM "Do you honestly believe that Terri's parents would not have contested a written document that conveyed the very same wishes that nineteen Florida State Judiciaries found were legitimately conveyed orally?" I don't know her parents but I'm guessing that they would see the inevitability and not contest it. More to the point -- even if they had screamed for attention, there would be little to be had. They would be alone, and certainly all this national attention would never have happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:29 PM The case had reached its legal process end. The problem is simply there are those that do not like the final decision and to further complicate the matter Congress pandered to these folks and changed the procedure. Very possibly true. But the only place where it can be determined whether the shenanigans that have gone on are legal or not is through the legal system. Until that has been happened, the principle has to apply that people have to act as if the legal process is still under way. Once again, as with the interruption of the vote counting back in 2000, the impression come across that people are lined up according to what outcome they wish to see. What is it about Florida? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Greg F. Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:58 PM What is it about Florida Always been a hotbed of born-again God botherers, and recently there's Jeb Bush. Q.E.D. Oh, and "Palmetto Bugs". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:55 PM Ahhhhhh, does anyone know if Terri's parents are affiliated with any "Anti-Abortion" groups? Anti-capital punishment groups? Feed the hungry groups? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:20 PM Well, of course, though Mr and Mrs Schindler are Catholics they might be out of sympathy with the general Catholic Church position on such things worldwide, which is to be against the death penalty as well as abortion, and in favour of feeding the hungry. But I don't know if there is any reason to assume that to be the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Once Famous Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:23 PM What's the matter, bobert? Maybe they are just plain old good people who believe in God and have morals about life. We can't all be liberals with an agenda of paranoia like yourself, can we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:19 PM Ahhhhh, jus fir the record, Martin, I "believe in God and have morals about life" as well... So what does this have to do with the questions I asked? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: jaze Date: 23 Mar 05 - 09:50 PM I can't help but wonder at the horror this woman would feel to be conscious of the fact that all she wanted was to be allowed to die with dignity, and her parents are having videos of her in her vegetative conditon flashed all around the world. That is just so sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:40 AM That last one goes both ways of course, according to whatever assumption is made about the imagined wishes of the person concerned in that hypothetical situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:17 AM Greetings John Hardly, "I don't know her parents but I'm guessing that they would see the inevitability and not contest it." I cannot share your confidence in the parents seeing "the inevitability and not contesting it". I believe their continuing to contest what has been established as Terri's wishes after years and years of court proceedings indicates that irrespective of how Terri's wishes were conveyed, orally or written, they would have contested them if indeed they were contrary to their own wishes. "More to the point -- even if they had screamed for attention, there would be little to be had. They would be alone, and certainly all this national attention would never have happened." The fact of the matter is that a Judicial decision was made that indeed Terri wished not to have her life sustained in this fashion well before any great National attention was paid to the case. This decision in effect gave as much credence to her wishes as a written document would have initially and as stated the National attention ensued. Unfortunately I believe that Terri has been made a poster child if you will to promote and/or impose a minority held social policy agenda. This outrages me as much as the action the Congress and President undertook. Greetings McGrath…, "But the only place where it can be determined whether the shenanigans that have gone on are legal or not is through the legal system." Absolutely correct, the case had been through the legal system and a decision had been made. Then of course Congress and the President attempted to impose a minority held social policy and overturn that decision. Make no mistake about the fact that the action taken in Washington, DC this past weekend was clearly intended to overturn the Florida Courts' decisions. Thankfully the Judicial branch of our Government has preserved our system and not acquiesced, as of yet anyway, to the ill-conceived action of the Legislative and Executive branch. There is no doubt that the battle lines were drawn with this case. This to me is the second most unfortunate aspect of this whole scenario. The first being of course the fact that Terri is in this physical condition. "What is it about Florida?" In two words, well actually more (as if I could limit myself to two words); Jeb Bush and his spending of the political capital earned in 2000 and 2004. Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:28 AM The parents legal shenanigans are being bankrolled--to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars--by the Right to Life movement. Randall Terry, the fascist who headed up the extremist anti-abortion organization Operation Rescue (which was put out of business using the anti-mob Ricoh laws), is one of their Right to Life "spokespersons". That has always been their true agenda, not the welfare of their daughter. They have been Right to Life activists for years. Why this never gets mentioned or debated in the mainstream press? Good question. Why Randall Terry never gets challenged by the media when speaking on behalf of the Schindlers? Good question. And I couldn't agree more on the appalling nature of how this woman's dignity has been dragged through the mud by her supposedly "loving" parents. These are people with an extremist agenda, who believe they are on a mission from god. It is obvious they feel they should have to answer to no laws, and so will stop at nothing. If they could figure out a way to kidnap her and get her out of the hospice they have turned into an armed camp and media circus, I'm sure they'd do it, as a means of "civil disobedience". Anyone ever seen the film "Citzen Ruth"? And can you imagine how awful it must be for the families of people who have loved ones dying in that hospice right now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:25 AM In Germany, even a living will would probably not suffice and stopping the feeding would under no circumstances be allowed. She would have to live (money or not) until her final death. Wolfgang (who doesn't agree with the above) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:30 AM But the legal process has not been concluded. Maybe it should have, and maybe it is being prolonged improperly for all kinds of reasons, and maybe none of this should have happened - but, once again, the only place where that can be determined is through the legal system. Up until that point, all legal decisions in this case have to be treated as provisional, and no irrevocable action should be taken in the meantime. .......... Whatever, I can't see how it can be appropriate for anyone to seek to demonise the parents in this case, merely because they disagree with their view as to what is the right thing to do for their daughter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM Supreme court rejects feeding tube appeal Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:18 PM This is the key to what some of us have been saying McGrath. Fortunately, some people even on Bush's side of the political isle have seen the potential for harm to our system of government inherent in the political shennanigans these political opportunists have been pulling... The decision by the White House yesterday to distance itself from the dispute was seen as an acknowledgement that Mr Bush's previous intervention in the affair had raised concerns among fellow conservatives opposed to blurring the lines between the executive and the judiciary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:31 PM I still can't see any valid logic for pulling the tubes until all the court battles were finally and irrevocably completed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:33 PM They were finally and irrevocably completed a long time ago, McGrath, according to the laws of the land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM ...basically, all the courts are doing now is saying, "No. We told you before, and we are telling you again... no, you may not replace the feeding tube." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Alice Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:51 PM McGrath, here is a timeline of the case to show step by step how the courts have decided this issue, through numerous appeals. As Carol said, the legal system was followed to its completion. It is the politicians now wanting to make hay with their followers who have now meddled in the case. http://www.wpbfnews.com/news/4295429/detail.html Schiavo Case Timeline Alice |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:44 PM Talking heads on Fox News have said, within the past hour that the judiciary is attempting to usurp the functions of government and "The judicial branch is out of control." Anyone who believes this should read the timeline at the link provided by Alice. Now it's being reported that Terri's family is considering a new appeal on the ground that she may have become ill from an attempted murder by strangulation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM Once again, even if the legal process may have been artificially and even perversely extended, it had been extended. Otherwise all processes in all courts would have ceased, and they hadn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 05:00 PM Sure, with enough money and people with oportunistic political motivations, they could, theoretically, force force Terri's body to continue to function at it's current level until all of the rest of Terri's family is dead. Does this serve anyone's interest other than those of the political opportunists? Personally, I'd have to say, no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 24 Mar 05 - 05:45 PM "I believe their continuing to contest what has been established as Terri's wishes after years and years of court proceedings indicates that irrespective of how Terri's wishes were conveyed, orally or written, they would have contested them if indeed they were contrary to their own wishes" I don't. What you are saying is that Terry's family MUST agree wih the findings as if they were the wishes of Terry, regardless of how well they may think they knew(know?) Terry themselves, and, unless they come to the acceptance of the court's decision as being the same as having been clearly written by a Terry, healthy and of sound mind, any legal contesting they do is underhanded and sinister. Surely, whether they chose to contest it or not you can see that they might not accept the court's opinion of what Terry might have wanted with the same credence with which they might accept a living will in Terry's own hand (from her own lawyer, drafted in healthier times)? The court's determination of what Terry might or might not have wanted is not necessarily the same thing as what Terry wanted. They did not have the advantage of talking to Terry -- that's what a living will would have done. They took their decision based on hearsay testimony. Yes, maybe enough to take the legal decision, but surely not imperically clear-cut. It may have been and it may not have been, but to disagree with their decision does not imply sinister intent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:07 PM Clearly there are political opportunists involved in this, as in most controversial issues. The judgement that her parents are such, and are not motivated by what they see as their daughters interests is one which would require more evidence than has been presented in the media coverage which I have seen. The fact that people may disagree witrh their judgement is quite a separate isasue. I've used the expresion "demonisation" a couple of time in this thread. What I mean is an apparent insistance by some people (on both sides) on seeing those with whom they disagree as uniformly insincere and essentially malevolent. ......................... However all that is beside the narrow point which I have been trying to make about the importance of rigorously working through the legal process, even when it is felt that it is being abused and distorted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:48 PM No, I have not suggested that the parents are political opportunists. My own feeling about their likely motivation is that they want to try to give some meaning to their daughter's short and tragic life. The political opportunists are the people (politicians and religious extremists) who are using whatever deep need the parents have for wanting to prolong their daughter's existance in her current condition, to their political advantage. And make no mistake... that is precisely what is happening. This issue is in no way about anyone's "right to life". It is, for everyone with the possible exception of Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers, about some politicians' need to get elected/re-elected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM McGrath: here is the piece you seem to be missing. The courts HAD finished the appeals process, and the tube was removed. But then Congress intervened, passing a NEW law, which forced the appeals process to start all over again. Again--the feeding tube was not removed before the legal process ended. The appeals to prevent removal of the tube had gone all the way the US Supreme Court, the highest legal authority in the US. When the US Supreme Court and the Florida Supreme Court (the highest legal authority in the State of Florida) refused to overrule the trial judge who ordered the tube removed, that meant the tube HAD to be removed. So AFTER the legal process ended, and there were no more appeals that could be followed, the trial judge then, and only then ordered the tube removed. It was AFTER the tube was legally removed that the Congress intervened, and attempted to do an end run around the courts, and start the whole process from square one again, as if no court proceedings had ever occurred. The feeding tube was not removed before the legal process ended. The legal process HAD ended. It had gone to the US Supreme Court. Congress had to invent and pass a whole new law to start the legal process over again. Now, the US Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, has spoken. The supporters of Terri Schiavo are now insisting that Gov Jeb Bush violate the court order to stay out of the hospice and away from Terri Schiavo (issued yesterday, when he tried to use his "executive privlege" to intervene again and take Terri into protective custody), kidnap Terri Schiavo from her hospice, take her to a hospital, and reinsert the tube. That is what we are dealing with here. They are claiming that their "God's law" (and remember, we have no official religion in this country) should be allowed to trump US law. That is what |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Mar 05 - 06:57 PM Just a side note, if anyone is interested: All this business about Terry Schiavo has driven what is going on in the Middle East out of the news. It has also eclipsed whatever has been happening in the wake of Tom DeLay's being charged with ethics violations. The magician's trick is to keep you watching one hand while he actually does the trick (or hides the bunny) with the other. Just a thought. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:01 PM Your post is a good one, GUEST 24 Mar 05 - 06:50 PM, except I wonder if this wording is the most accurate: "The supporters of Terri Schiavo". I don't think I would necessarily call the people who are trying to keep Terri Schiavo in a persistant vegetative state indefinitely, her "supporters", if you know what I mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:04 PM The timeline of this case shows that every substantive issue has been argued before numerous courts before and the case itself has been placed before the U.S. Supreme Court several times. In each case the Supreme Court, overwhelmingly conservative, I should add, has refused to consider the appeal. Not even the Florida state legislature would pass an emergency measure earlier this week to override the courts. The Rev. Pat Robertson has now urged Gov. Bush to send in state police or troops to forcibly remove Terri to a place where she'll be "safe," regardless of the law or the Constitution. Randall Terry now promises "Hell to pay." Terri is being compared to the crucified Christ, the courts to the Sanhedrin, etc., etc. The repeated appeals are now a carnival being carried out largely for political and propaganda purposes. The courts have implicitly recognized this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM But to answer McGrath, again--the tubes were not removed until AFTER the legal process was complete. Congress & Dubya intervened AFTER the legal process had run it's course, and AFTER the tubes had been removed LEGALLY--AFTER ALL APPEALS HAD BEEN EXHAUSTED AND EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM DENIED. That is the most extraordinary aspect of this case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Mar 05 - 07:53 PM The point it, after it had reached what appeared to be an ending, it was then restarted. Maybe it shouldn't, maybe that was an abuse of process and all that stuff, but it meant the consequence was a continuing legal process with a theoretical possibility that it might reach a different conclusion. In those circumstances, to persist with the withholding of nourishment from Terri with a view to bringing about her death inevitably became as an attempt to interfere with that legal process. The suggestion appears to be that there is no way under the American system to reach an actual final end to a process under the legal system. Not a situation where all court activity should stop, but one where it does in fact stop, regardless of whatever anybody might wish. .......................... No, I wasn't thinking of you, Carol, when I expressed concern at the way people fall into the trap of collectively demonising those on the other side. But even on the Mudcat there have been plenty of examples of it, on both sides. And it happens time and time again in a wide range of issues, and not just in the Mudcat or on the Internet. It seems to me a symptom of a political/ethical culture in serious trouble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:03 PM Well, opne danged thing is fir sure.... We ain't heard nuthin' about Social Security, Medicaid, the dollar tankin', 'er much of anythign about the other *lesser* issues.... That, I think was the original motivation behind me satrting this thread... Nevermind, and now... Back to Terri... Or more appropraitely stated... Terri's body. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Donuel Date: 24 Mar 05 - 09:46 PM A stated objective of this neocon administration has been to abolish judicial oversight. The shell game with Terry right to life hysteria and Jeb Bush's decree to take custody of Terry ( Which was ruled as illegal as kidnapping anyone the govenor choses ) as well as the threatened abolition of filibuster which would allow ultra conservative judges to be appointed all point to abolishing judicial oversight. By either demonizing democratic judges as being evil murderous activist judges or appointing judges who will do the bidding of neocon values by throwing away Congressional rules, the result is essentialy the same - an abolition of judicial oversight. Passing laws for one person, making decrees of letting the state take custody of a person, talking head nonsense by Pat Boone and Pat Rpbertson... it all makes for an interesting game of chess which is a power play far removed from helping a brain dead woman. Of course this is only my informed opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST,Mathilda Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:03 PM and can I ask what the Families of the other Patients in this Hospice are feeling..or the Patients in the Hospice with the Media and Circus outside holding 24/7 vigils, beating drums and chanting...yeah really compassionate ....letting these other poor souls die with dignity....and how does this Hospice feel... I know I would be disgusted as I am not of the faith that most of these Vigilantes are...so much for the other Patients in this Hospice going there to pass peacefully and with care and concern...with their Family or Friends with them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:33 PM 100% BS politics by the neocons... Nice to own the microphone... Oh, if Clinton had Karl Rove, the master of manipulation... Hey folks, in case you ain't figured it yet. We ain't got government any more... You can put a fork in it... We have *rulerment*... Might as well get used to hearing it 'cause until the few so-called Repbs 'round here get it, that's what I'm gonna be callin' it. *RULERMENT* (Sorry for scramin'). Democracy is over!!! Everyone just go home!!! Nuthin' to see here!!! Really... nuthin..... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Donuel Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM Bobert, take hope. The nations of fumdamenatlist religous state govenrments are starting to eye democracy as a feasible alternative. Who knows, maybe the US will be next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:17 PM McGrath, the thing you don't seem to realize about the effect that this travesty of justice could potentially have on our system is that if these people are successful in weakening and/or abolishing judicial oversight (as Donuel put it), they can use the very same powers they have gained, using Terri Schiavo as their tool, to do exactly the opposite of what they are saying they are doing now. They will also be able to kill people more easily in a system that lacks judicial oversight. Think about it for just a minute. These are the powers you seem to be advocating that these people be allowed to have. The system of checks and balances in our country was put there for a very, very good reason. So that no branch of government can become too powerful on its own. The people who are trying to do an end run around the judicial system are trying to weaken our system of checks and balances. These are the three pillars of our system of government, and they are also the protection that the citizens of this country were given to protect us against tyranny. I, for one, would not like to see these protections taken away from us by a bunch of fanatical Christian Ayatollas, or power hungry politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 25 Mar 05 - 06:58 AM except for the obvious... ...they didn't win. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:53 AM No, actually they did win, John... They bent over fir the Christain Right and demonstrated to just what extremes they would go to accomodate the the CR... Now the next step is how they will use this to further consolodate power... "Yes, ladies and gentlemen. The Deocrats are no longer just happy in their thirst for blood that they now will not only kill your babies but if you get sich, they'll starve you to death." Yeah, the Bush people couldn't be happier... They will use this to ram their "activist" right wing judges down out throat by saying that "we need judges who aren't murderes"... Yes, I smell Karl Rove all over this one... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:02 AM they didn't win. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 25 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM McGrath, you are just plain wrong and/or wrongly informed about the US judicial process, when a stay is issued, and what the procedures are for appeals. You also seem happy as a pig rolling in mud to remain ignorant of both the process and facts of the case. I'm guessing you are doing this because you don't want to come out and admit you are on the side of the parents. Why, I don't know, but I'm guessing (again) that you are uncomfortable finding yourself on the same side as the anti-abortion Right to Life extremists who have hijacked this issue for their own political purposes. Many people here have patiently tried to explain the process and the points of the case to you, but you stubbornly refuse to accept the explanations or educate yourself. Not a terribly enlightened approach, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Amos Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:36 AM There are two kinds of folks in the world, and no value judgement intended -- those who have had a whiff of being outside of the body, and those who ain't had a whiff they can remember or care to think of. Anyone who has knows that Terry Schiavo will be much happier when she has a shot at recycling, or going off exploring, or whatever it is you believe happens after the body's energy-grid folds and you can finally get away from it. Those who never have see only deathful blackness as her fate and are understandably outraged at such a possibility. The idea of slipping into permanent unbeing is horrible and compelling; but it ain't so. To them, living as a vegetable is better than the not-existing of death. Any sensation is better than no sensation. But get over it. If Terry Schiavo dies from the sleepy dream like checkout process of starving, she will be fine. If she dies because she gets drowned in a huge stack of reporters, she'll be fine. If she dies because her brain stops functioning at some point, whatever the precipitate cause, she'll be fine. When you die, you'll be fine, too. At least she isn't being offered a violent trauma as her exit. That can really mess up your judgment about what to do next. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:46 AM um. Amos, Those who are outraged, to a greater degree than those who are thrilled at the prospect of her death, do believe in an afterlife. But that's great rationale -- kill because the dead are better off than we. you kill me, Amos. :^) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Greg F. Date: 25 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM DON! How dareyou! The BuShites engaging in that sort of sleight of hand?? I'm appalled you could even suggest such a thing. You must be one a them "ennermies of Amerika". But its really working WELL for them, ain't it? "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste or intelligence of the American people." H.L. Mencken |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Amos Date: 25 Mar 05 - 10:02 AM John: I did not say that, thank you. I don't need words stuffed into my mouth -- too many in there already. Why, then are you proposing heroic measures to prevent the natural process from occurring? We are not talking about killing her -- her disease did that long ago. We are talking about turning off an artificial intervention which according tot he medical experts has no hope of improving her condition. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 25 Mar 05 - 10:24 AM Greetings John Hardly, "What you are saying is that Terry's family MUST agree with the findings as if they were the wishes of Terry, regardless of how well they may think they knew(know?) Terry themselves, and, unless they come to the acceptance of the court's decision as being the same as having been clearly written by a Terry, healthy and of sound mind, any legal contesting they do is underhanded and sinister." No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that I do not believe based upon their actions that Terri's parents would have simply accepted a written statement of their daughter's wishes with out contest, unless of course her wishes agreed with her parents. Please understand, I do not condemn her parents for their actions. With the Grace of God I have yet to face these decisions as they would relate my wife or to one of my children. Believe I thank the Lord each day for being spared this. Well we have found a part of this truly sad and unfortunate situation that we agree on. There is not doubt that Terri's parents are unhappy with the courts' rulings. And they are entitled to pursue any legal means available to them. As I have stated repeatedly, my disagreement is solely with the action taken by the Legislative and Executive branches of our Government last weekend. They clearly, on an individual case basis, attempted to subvert our system of government. Yet they have not taken action on the countless other cases of this nature either currently being fought in the courts or those past. This to me is called political pandering and we should carefully consider re-electing those that participated. Greetings All, The very thought of an elected Governor, one that has sworn an oath to uphold the laws of the State in which he was elected, threatening to take unilateral action troubles me more than, well almost anyway, the action taken in Washington, DC. Wasn't ridding Iraq of a dictator a prime justification for our invasion used by the very brother of the "Governor" that now has contemplated this unilateral action? McGrath…, Do you see what a can of worms has been opened by the blatant disregard of our system of governance by the Congress and President? Peace, Ed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:29 PM They may not have won, John, but they did to damage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: John Hardly Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:46 PM I did not say that, thank you. I don't need words stuffed into my mouth -- too many in there already. You? Too many words?! ...well, maybe...but I generally like the artistry you show in the order in which you put those words - even if I don't agree with the conclusions you draw! Why, then are you proposing heroic measures to prevent the natural process from occurring? I'm actually not. All I've contended is... 1. If Terry had had an actually living will this whole thing would never have happened (and that a court's determination of what her will was/would have been is not the same thing). 2. That our justice system and rule of government has not suffered -- unless you, like me, worry that the steps that have, through this case, been made in the legal right to euthanize pose a future threat. That, after all, is the special interest-political side that actually, practically, pragmatically won this case (not the "religious right" -- they LOST). Terry is going expire. We are not talking about killing her -- her disease did that long ago. We are talking about turning off an artificial intervention which according tot he medical experts has no hope of improving her condition. And those artificial means are used to keep many others alive -- many others who are a burden to their caregivers and it would be far more convenient to let them expire as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 25 Mar 05 - 01:37 PM Correction. My last post should read... ...but they did do damage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 25 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM McGrath of Harlow said, in part: Once again, even if the legal process may have been artificially and even perversely extended, it had been extended. Otherwise all processes in all courts would have ceased, and they hadn't. In essence, as I see it, M of H, you are saying that as long as one party chooses to keep filing papers with courts (no matter with how little or actually no merit legally), everything has to be put on hold. Anyone can file a complaint or a petition with a court; there's no filter that says the paper actually has to have factual or legal merit. I can file a complaint against George Bush, claiming that he physically assaulted me. It's not true (I'm sure you'll be relieved to learn), but I can file the suit. It will take a while before the court deals with it. That delay should not hold up anything else, unless there is some apparent possibility of my carrying the burden of proof. Possibly not then. After my suit is defeated--or indeed, maybe thrown out of court as frivolous--I can file another one, which will take some time to deal with. The fact that there are and may continue to be legally and factually groundless complaints filed is not significant. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM Amos opined: Those who never have see only deathful blackness as her fate and are understandably outraged at such a possibility. The idea of slipping into permanent unbeing is horrible and compelling; but it ain't so. To them, living as a vegetable is better than the not-existing of death. Any sensation is better than no sensation. Not so. I see death as a pure end, "deathful blackness" in your words. (Actually I'd prefer the word "blankness" to "blackness". Even that word implies a mind to perceive it, but I guess we're bound to verbal expression here, and I don't know how to express anything like that when I as a mind just do not exist. I am as convinced as is possible that there is nothing further when the operations of the body no longer make consciousness operate. Just the same, I agree with Terri: If I'm in a situation like that, pull the plug, remove the tube or whatever. Both for myself (if a chemical process being forced to continue operation can be called "me") and as a kindness to my friends and loved ones, get it over. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM I do not know all the details of this case, but I am sure it is almost impossible to obey any form of the Hippocratic Oath, and condone what is happening here. Her privacy, and the families privacy, have been totally compromised. The doctors and nurses are suffering trauma, trying to comply with all the legislation and diverse wishes of the family. The only time I have seen the patient, she seems to have some sort of brain activity. To starve her to death is not in my mind an act of kindness. Doctors can sometimes be wrong about the level brain activity present. I doubt if many people would want to exist in any vegetative state, a Do Not Resucitate order would be appropriate, and even turning off machines that provide breathing and heart functions would be a fast death, but the very thought of her starving and dehydrating is appaling to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: EagleWing Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM the very thought of her starving and dehydrating is appaling to me. If you had fully read this and the other threads on the subject you would realise that this is not the issue. When a person is dying the need for food and water switch off. What has been happening is that her ability to switch off has been denied by artificially feeding her. And that has been the case for many years. Frank L. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM Dear Frank, Food and water is a very basic human need, (I have to tube feed my own daughter) In the case of Terri whatever happened to her body/brain did not kill her; only her ability to communicte her wishes, and her ability to feed herself was lost. Death would be ensured without nutrition, and in a most horrible manner. In my opinion (I am very familiar with death by stavation having seen much of it in third world countries) kindness would be a massive dose of morphine, but illegal for anyone in our system to administer; and that is the issue for me legislated starvation is not in my opinion a humane death for anyone. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM Guys like this Eagle Wing character think it's OK to starve a woman but a crime to starve a dog. Typical double standard found in the far left liberal diseased mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM Dave (tam), it's nice to see you here again. In the case of Terri Schiavo, there is not much left of her brain, mostly just the stem and a lot of spinal fluid filling the space where the rest of her brain used to be. The doctors who have been involved with this case for many years have said that she is not reponsive. The little bit of footage you have seen is just about all there is among the many hours of footage that exist in which she doesn't just blankly stare off into space, and the doctors have determined that what looks like responsiveness in the footage you have seen is not what it appears to be. That is why the state she is in is called "persistant vegetative state". The only brain activity they have been able to detect is what is required to keep the heart pumping and other autonomic nervous system and reflexive activity. I am sorry to read that your daughter is having to be fed through a tube. I don't know the circumstances you and your daughter are facing, but I wish you the best of luck with everything, and my best thoughts and wishes go to you and your family for whatever help and comfort you and they need at this time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: GUEST Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM CT Scan of Terri Schiavo's Brain, 1996 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM We progress in time and technology but with little wisdom. Other Mudcatters have posted similar situations and experiences. They all acted with loving compassion on behalf of their family members. To use cold logic should be a function of a legal system only when there is no loving family to act on our behalf. Where there is disagreement amongst the family (and apparently some medical experts involved in this case) they should err on the side of the Hippocratic teachings and do no harm... To do otherwise is not acting in a humane and dignified manner for the patient or the living family members who are also casualties/victims. Terri is brain dead therefore feeling no pain that we know of, she cannot suffer the mental and physical trauma her parents are living with. There is a duty to respect their wishes, and protect what little sanity they can muster in such circumstances. There will come a time when the inevitable happens and she will pass on completely, therefore there is no need to rush the event. Our thoughts and prayers should go out to them, and to all involved with making these difficult decisions. God, Grant them all the wisdom to act, and peace to live with the consequences. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: CarolC Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:01 PM That is a lovely post, Dave. In this case, however, it is the husband who has the most rights and also the most responsibilities with regard to Terri and how her own wishes in this matter might best be carried out. And that is what the courts have determined consistantly throughout this whole ordeal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:11 PM I would never leave such a responsibility to one person, it is an onerous task for anyone. As a parent, I would never say her parents have no right to a say in her fate. Where there was disagreement amongst the family, the State has taken a stand, wether we agree with it or not it has happened. May we all learn from it, and progress as much in wisdom as we have in time and technology. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: Bobert Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM Well, as fir death being blackness? Hey, no one can say one way or another but I don't *believe* it to be that way, but quite the opposite... But again, that is my *belief*... Others may wish to think of death in black and dark terms but those of Faith know in their hearts it's just not so... You want proof? I don't have. Nor do those who think of death as darkness... Some really nice posts here today as Terry's body gets closer to being released... Just symbolically I'm kind a hopin' the body is released on Easter. That would be real nice and just might be somewhat heeling for those who have become so emotionally involved, on both sides of the issue... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't... From: ejsant Date: 26 Mar 05 - 06:32 AM Greetings All, What if indeed Terri wished for her life not to be sustained whilst in this state? If indeed this is the case and she, as has been contended, does indeed have some level of awareness of her circumstances, then think about the mental anguish and torture she may be going through. I would think that if indeed Terri wished to have her life sustained through scientific means regardless of her state of physical or mental ability and she indeed has some level of awareness she is also going through a great deal of mental anguish and torture knowing that her life is not being sustained. This is why I cannot have an opinion about the merits of either side in this particular case. I simply do not posses the wisdom necessary. To "err on the side of life" may cause suffering as may erring on the side of "right to die". This ethical conundrum to me is a direct effect of man's (species not gender) ego interfering in the design and balance when we do not, and in my opinion will never, have the necessary wisdom or understanding. I pray that the Lord brings peace to Terri, her whole family, and all on all sides of this issue that have invested their emotions in the compassionate way they have. Peace, Ed |
