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BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen?
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Subject: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: freda underhill Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:35 AM Cardinals split on vote; Gerard McManus; 16apr05 ON the eve of the conclave, the 115 cardinals are deeply divided over the prospect of Joseph Ratzinger becoming the next pope, paving the way for the emergence of a surprise compromise candidate. The conservative German cardinal is reported to have the support of 40 to 50 of the College of Cardinals, but remains well short of the two-thirds or 77 votes required. Cardinal Ratzinger's candidature is being challenged by a solid group of "reformisti", or reformers, under the symbolic leadership of Italian Carlo Martini, who has recently retired to Jerusalem and had been considered a spent force. Martini is 78 and Ratzinger celebrates his 78th birthday today. The coalescing of forces behind the two men suggests the cardinals will have to seek a compromise candidate or become locked in a damaging stalemate – a scenario they will do everything in their power to avoid. Under the rules laid down by John Paul II, a deadlocked conclave can fall back to a simple majority vote after about a week of failed ballots and black smoke rising from the Sistine Chapel chimney. This would mean the Ratzinger forces could in theory "hold out" until their man was elected. Since the election of Gregory XVI in 1831, no conclave has lasted longer than five days, with most being over in two or three. Anything longer and the church would be seen as being split between the conservatives and liberals. Martini has very little chance of being elected and will negotiate for his own preferred candidate. Martini, a Jesuit, is a biblical scholar and great orator who managed to get many of the youth of sophisticated Milan to attend his talks when he was the city's archbishop. He has urged the church to embark on a new wave of reform, including decentralising power to the local bishops. The key to Monday's conclave then will be: if not Ratzinger and Martini, then who? In the past week, the most reported "papabile" have been Italian Dionigi Tettamanzi and Nigerian Francis Arinze, but their prospects have waned. Tettamanzi promoted himself heavily as a solid conservative, but his bona fides must be being questioned because the conservatives have deserted him. And while Arinze would have the romantic appeal of being the first black pope since the first centuries of the church, he has been too long in the Roman curia. The two most likely compromise candidates are Jorge Bergoglio from Argentina and Ennio Antonelli, the Archbishop of Florence. Antonelli is the dark-horse Italian, a warm and engaging man who would be in the style of the short-lived but captivating John Paul I. He is far from being a hardliner but has urged priests to lead more spiritual lives, and warned parents to restrict their children's TV viewing and young people not to read horoscopes. Bergoglio, another Jesuit, has consistently kept a low profile and has given just one interview since becoming Archbishop of Buenos Aries – to a parish newsletter. He lives a simple life, cooks his own meals, rides buses and works with the people in the cardboard cities of the Argentine capital. At the same time he has gained a reputation for being an adroit church politician and administrator, and for being a deeply spiritual man. Bergoglio has the added advantage of being both a South American and an Italian (both his parents come from Italy). In a race with 115 horses which is said to be decided not by men but by the Holy Ghost, Bergoglio at 10-1 may be worth a flutter. © Herald and Weekly Times |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: freda underhill Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:44 AM Catholic Dissidents Call for Openness; John Paul Silenced Many, Critics Say By Alan Cooperman and Daniel Williams Washington Post Foreign Service Saturday, April 16, 2005; Page A01 VATICAN CITY -- Some quantitative measures of John Paul II's papacy are well known: He visited more countries, named more saints and issued more teaching documents than any other pope. But there is another statistic that is seldom mentioned here: By some estimates, the Vatican silenced or reprimanded more than 100 Roman Catholic theologians during John Paul's 26-year reign. As 115 cardinals prepare to enter a conclave Monday to elect the next pope, dissidents are calling for a new openness and willingness to debate such topics as the ordination of women, condom use to fight HIV/AIDS and the morality of homosexuality. "Suppression of thought, loss of ideas, closing down of discussion -- that's not an act of faith. That's not of the Holy Spirit," said Sister Joan Chittister, a Benedictine nun from Erie, Pa. "Unity is good, but it has a dark side." Chittister is one of several critics of John Paul's legacy who have been brought to Rome by an international dissident network, We Are Church, in an effort to widen the pre-conclave debate. Feeling they are shut out of normal discourse with church leaders, they are holding a series of news conferences, hoping to have an impact through the media. Their appeals for greater tolerance of dissent are echoed by theologians such as the Rev. Hans Kung of Germany and the Rev. Charles E. Curran of the United States, both of whom were stripped of authority to teach in Catholic universities under John Paul. Neither Kung nor Curran has come to Rome, but they are speaking out. "Many people are now hoping for a pope who will seriously free up the log-jam of reforms" and "have the courage to make a new start," Kung said in a statement. Advocates for sex abuse victims, Catholic feminists and groups seeking a greater role for the laity in church governance are also calling for a pope who will allow more open debate. Giovanni Avena, editor of the Catholic lay newsletter Adista, said John Paul created a "medieval atmosphere" at the Vatican by emphasizing ritual for ordinary believers while restricting discussion on important issues to his inner circle. He said the decision to bar the College of Cardinals from talking to the media after John Paul's funeral exemplified this attitude. "With the pope's declining health, greater authority devolved toward Vatican officials," said Lavinia Byrne, a British commentator on Catholic affairs. "The balance of power became skewed as power was taken away from bishops and national and local churches and invested in the center." Byrne was a nun until 2000, when she left her order, the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary, after refusing to repudiate the arguments for women's ordination in her book "Women at the Altar." "I want debate on this to be reopened," she said. "The arguments against women's ordination have never really been spelled out conclusively. It's not that I think there will be women priests overnight, but why can't we even talk about this?" The Roman Catholic Church, like all faiths, has to define and protect its "real treasure," the teachings it considers essential, said the Rev. Augustine DiNoia, an American priest who is the second-ranking official in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican department charged with ensuring orthodoxy and disciplining theologians who cross the line. "In theology as in softball," DiNoia said, "you can't play the game if you don't agree on the rules." |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: freda underhill Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:48 AM excerpt from the Times online.. ..if the job is to tackle Islam and poverty while galvanising the Christian West the conclave could turn to a cardinal from Asia: the Archbishop of Bombay, Cardinal Ivan Dias (a linguist and diplomat), 69, or the Archbishop of Jakarta, Julius Darmaatmadja, 70. More likely is a pope from Latin America, where more than half the world's Catholics live: Oscar Rodríguez Maradiaga of Honduras, 62 (a pilot and musician), has criticised globalisation, as has the Archbishop of São Paolo, Claudio Hummes, 70. A Franciscan of German origin, he criticises globalisation and urges solidarity with workers to close the gap between rich and poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:10 AM I heard that Cardinal Secola was in with a good chanceuntil it was realised that he might be called Pope Secola |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:29 AM They will reach outside the rigid iconoclastic bounds of catholic tradition - and select Dick Greenhouse of the digital tradition.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:24 AM Yeah, I could buy that. Dick Greenhaus would make Catholicism a lot of fun. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: freda underhill Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:53 AM Conclave goes hi-tech to stop spies From Richard Owen in Rome THE Vatican is to place an "electromagnetic force field" around the conclave to choose the next pope to prevent "electronic intrusion". The conclave, which starts on Monday afternoon after a morning Mass at St Peter's, will be held in the Sistine Chapel under Michelangelo's frescoes, where conclaves have been held for centuries. However, for the first time, the 115 cardinal electors will be lodged not in the cramped corridors of the adjoining Apostolic Palace but in a new residence, St Martha's House. Under new rules laid down in 1996 by the late Pope, they are forbidden to carry electronic devices such as mobile telephones or computers or to use radios and televisions. The Vatican is taking no chances. The cardinals will be frisked by guards supervised by the papal chamberlain, Cardinal Eduardo Martínez Somalo of Spain. "We live in an age of spy satellites and sophisticated directional microphones," one official said. Andrea Tornielli, papal biographer and Vatican watcher, said: "The secret services of various countries are extremely interested in knowing how the voting will come out and how the final choice was arrived at. The Vatican started to take preventive measures some time ago." Built between 1992 and 1996 with the succession process in mind, St Martha's contains 106 suites and 22 single rooms. Run by nuns and described as an air-conditioned "luxury hotel", it is being swept for electronic spying devices. The cardinals will be taken to the Sistine Chapel in a bus with tinted windows. Voting papers will this time be placed in bronze urns rather than the traditional chalice. Cardinals are under oath not to reveal how they voted, and the voting papers and any private notes are burnt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John Hardly Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:44 AM Arinze |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:56 AM I understand that G Bush sent a letter of consolation to the popes wife. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: The Shambles Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM That is too silly. He would have asked Mrs Bush to do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:57 PM As a sort-of Catholic, I think that they should vote in a Unitarian. It's about their turn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:59 PM Hmm. With 120 voting cardinals and 106 suites, I wonder who gets stuck with the single rooms. Maybe the local Roman cardinals commute home to their wives and kids??? Do they pack a lunch box when they commute to the consistory? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:07 PM Cardinal Ratzinger |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 05 - 07:57 PM Damned shame Cardinal Sin is too ill to attend. I'd LOVE to have Cardinal Sin elected -- PDQ Bach might be the only person ever named a Cardinal Sin, but Jamie Sin could be the only be the only Cardinal Sin ever named Pope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: DougR Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:01 PM Amos, of course. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Bobert Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:34 PM Pope Amos? Does have a nice ring to it.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:13 PM There's a strong opposition to Ratzinger from the German Cardinals. They know him. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,Rapaire Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM Good. I don't like him either. Too too authoritatian and conservative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:15 PM I suppose you could say Ratzinger is a front-runner, but I think all his votes will disappear after the first ballot. He's probably the best-known cardinal in the world, but he has made a lot of enemies. I'm guessing the cardinals will pick somebody who is more of a pastor, somebody who can deal with a variety of people. While I disagree with him on some theological matters, I have to say that John Paul II was very successful as a pastor. Past popes have been theologians and bureaucrats, but I don't think the age is appropriate for that type of leader right now. From what I understand of him, I think Jaime Cardinal Sin might have made a good pope - if he changed his name. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM Well, if Ratzinger is selected watch for a mass exodos of women, their kids in tow, from the allready sexist Catholic Church... How come all these autocrats are gettin' in positions of power these days anyway... What, are people so sinfull that they need to appoint folks to *rule* over them? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: The Shambles Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:11 AM I am keeping my fingers crossed - as I have put in a good word in for Joe Offer......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM I got good odds at the bookies on Ian Paisley. RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:41 AM Somebody male, old, celibate, and probably catholic too. Whoever it is won't make the slightest difference to the downward spiral into decay, decadence, and death by pollution that awaits this world. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: mooman Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:18 AM I don't have any specific interest in this but Oscar Rodríguez Maradiaga (Honduras) looks like he might be a good choice from his CV. But I am invariably wrong on such matters. Pax vobiscum moo |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: mandoleer Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:01 AM One thing that is certain - it won't be me. I've decided not to accept any offer from Rome. With regard to one of Freda's bulletins, I know that a horse was chosen as a Roman consul, but they've never had one as a Pope, have they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: bill\sables Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:13 AM Whoever he is He will probably take on a new name and if he follows tradition he has to call himself Pope John Paul George or John Paul Ringo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: The Shambles Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:13 AM If only Shergar had lived................ |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: mg Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM He might be just a peach of a prelate in reality but I hope to high heavens that it is not Ratzinger....I would love to have a Pope Sean Patrick O'Malley myself, not knowing anything about him but I like his name. I'm all for an African pope, but I am stuck on the fact that the one that they keep mentioning is a convert....it shouldn't matter but I think of religion as something handed down from birth and whatever you are when you were born is what you are...sort of genetic. Like saying I don't think I will be Dutch any more. I am going to convert to Estonian. But that is not how I am supposed to see it I know. Well, may the best man win. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM Several of the tongue in cheek nominees would not accept the job as it would mean a demotion. It would after all be a retrograde step from thinking you are God to becoming his representative on earth. Anyway if Ian Paisley wanted to be Pope he'd go out and buy the necessary qualifications on the internet, no need for all the election palaver, especially as he doesn't believe in democracy in the first place. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: annamill Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:23 PM Now there is an idea. If Dick or Amos were to become the new pope I just might, actually, perhaps, reconsider rejoining religion ........................................................nahhh! Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John MacKenzie Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:31 PM Amos already has more power than he can handle! G.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Burke Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM Whoever is selected will follow the pattern set by John Paul, combining the names of the 4 previous incumbents? John Paul John Paul John Paul John Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Susu's Hubby Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM Ratzinger comes with baggage. I heard on the news this morning that he was a Nazi guard in his youth. To be fair, he said that he was forced into doing it but it still proves to be baggage nonetheless. Baggage that the church probably doesn't need nor want at this point. I'm just throwing this out for discussion but has anyone heard of the catholic belief that the last pope (as in the pope during the 2nd coming of christ) will be an evil pope? I've heard this from several sources but have no catholic friends that are well versed in their religion to know about that. I've even heard that the evil pope will be what the bible refers to as the false prophet which will share the stage with the antichrist. I don't know what to think about that. Has anybody else heard that? Hubby |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM I think it's about time they had Pope Sixtus the Sixth. Maybe they stopped at 5 because it sounded silly...but all those John Pauls sound almost as silly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: jaze Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM There is a prediction by St Malachy from way back that lists the future popes with a description of each. According to his predictions, there are only two more popes listed. This next one,possibly a Benedictine, will lead the church against evil. The last one listed will be named Peter. This seems to be the end of either the Roman Catholic Church or.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:47 PM Financially they should choose the Nigerian guy, lots of new converts to chuck their change in the plate. Emotionally they should choose the Italian, it will placate the home ground and keep a lid on some of the crap that is about to hit the fan re the Vaticans accounting systems. Realistically it will be some old git without a clue about the real world and an unhealthy attitude to the female gender. Hey ho. Amen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:07 PM A new Pope -- Who will be Chosen? "Not I," said the duck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,MarkS Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM They should choose the black guy for no other reason than better jokes. 1. The new eleventh commandment, "Thou shalt be cool." 2. Organ music replaced by a jazz combo at church services. Might get me back. 3. New chain of Black/Italian restaurants opening up. "Yo mama Leones." Any others? Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:18 PM When the Pope does the Mass, would it be a, no, forget it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Azizi Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:33 PM Personally, I like the 11th commandment. And I'm sure there are already jazz combos that perform in churches..or at least there are musicians who perform with jazz combos-though the churches are probably Babtist or COGIC {Chruch of God in Christ} and not Catholic churches. And as to Yo Mama..well if the new Pope is the Nigerian bishop-or even if he isn't maybe he would like to check out this link [no disrepect intended} Clean Yo Mama Jokes |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:46 PM And from a new Black Pope: "Never min' YO Mama; You min' His Mama!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:51 PM
There has been talk that since the Catholic Church has been growing by leaps and bounds in Africa, perhaps the next Pope will be an African. I don't know of any good candidates from Africa. Most African Catholics tend to be very conservative, very much enamored with the pomp and circumstance. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:13 AM Most African Catholics tend to be very conservative, very much enamored with the pomp and circumstance. On what evidence is that rather broad judgement made? That they can be bought-off with coloured beads? But don't worry Joe - you still have my vote for Pope. On the basis that you will do less harm in that role. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: dianavan Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:06 AM It will probably be Ratzinger. Yeh - Ratzinger and Bush. What a combo. Oh well, maybe before there is any real change it has to get super evil. Out of oppression... |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:34 AM Is he related to Ratzo in the film Midnight Cowboy? G |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Cllr Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:16 AM Cormac Murphy O'Conner 20-1 |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:32 AM First two votes today are inconclusive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: freda underhill Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:56 AM what malachy said I am happy to volunteer to be pope. I can be jeanette pauline 1st. I would downsize those cardinals, declare all positions vacant, and issue new selection criteria. all nuns, disenfranchised priests and unemployed refugees will be allowed to apply, there will be a policy of equal opportunity. I would relocate the Vatican to Hull (close to the centre of the folk scene) with an outpost at Major's Creek. I will put Joe Offer in charge of editing Papal encyclicals, JennyO and jack Halyard in charge of Hymns, and would distribute the millions in the Vatican Bank throughout the southern hemisphere (so as to re-establish a balanced planetary financial yin and yang). anyone who complains, I will direct to the Mother of All BS threads, where they can lodge a complaint in writing. the Lord will be my shepherd ( ewe keep out of this, brucie and LH) and I shall not want. but, if the cardinals decide to vote for someone else,I will renounce all aspirations to reality and will instead go for a good fantasy. your humble servant f.underhill |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:59 AM Flash! The new Pope's name is Pope John Paul the 24th - Citizens on Patrol! |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,Declan Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:50 AM When I heard the Rats' singer was being tipped for pope I thought they meant Bob Geldof! |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:54 AM Boom boom, boomtown. G ¦¬] |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:39 PM White smoke and bells tell the story that the cardinals have been quick. But still some minutes to wait until they tell us who. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:43 PM Oh, joy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:45 PM Benedict XVI Ratzinger |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:46 PM It's Ratzo or Benedict the 16th, my nipples explode with delight [not!] Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: freda underhill Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:01 AM you were right, brucie. damn. will have to keep applying for other jobs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM As the comic we get (not me mind you) in the UK put it Papa Ratzi |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,JB Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:42 PM Yep, Ratzinger it is and I can tell you that as an Irish musician living in Germany for almost 30 years now that many Germans from the music scene and other more liberally minded folk are very concerned about this decision. He is conservative to the bone and is most remembered best for the fact that, apart from having been the previous Pope`s close watchdog, he did away with a special program in Germany a few years ago whereby pregnant girls (women) should receive free advice and support. This is most definitely a step or two back into the dark ages. I think I`ll stock up on contraceptives tomorrow myself. JB |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:12 AM Freda, I'm not sure it's a good idea to move the Vatican to Hull. Can you find a place that has folk music AND better weather? I mean, I liked Hull and its lovely loo and everything, but all it did was drizzle while I was there. Hell, the weather's better in Alaska. I'd suggest California, but I'd like a change of scenery. -Joe Cardinal Offer, Chief Encyclist- |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST, Ebbie Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:36 AM Not to worry, Joe. Someday when all major cities are under a dome, the Vatican will fit nicely into the Alaskan Interior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: a new Pope - who will be chosen? From: GUEST,freda Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:29 AM You've got a point there Joe. and california's just the place where i could start my own new religion! |
