BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)

Subject: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 02 May 05 - 07:03 AM

Don't believe the national percentages, the real battleground is in the key marginal constituencies.
We need only 10% of previously-identified labouring party supporters in the key marginals to abstain (or vote LibDem, same thing really) to allow Conservatives to take these seats.
And if we win these seats, Michael Howard will be the next PM.

You've guessed it! All our own polling in these key seats are showing that MORE than 10% of once-labouring party voters will stay away from the polls or vote LibDem, Green, Respect etc.

My mates and I are now confident of victory on thursday. We've already bought the champagne. The beauty of it all is that our old friends, the Saddam-loving lefties will have won it for Michael!

How good it is to be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: alanabit
Date: 02 May 05 - 07:50 AM

The Conservatives will probably win because many Labour supporters will not support them, as part of a protest. The Conservatives are no more popular now than they were in 1997. You in your turn will probably be very glad that I will stay abroad. I have no doubt at all that the incoming government will quickly remind me of just why I left.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: RichM
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:03 AM

Don't put your trust and faith in politicians. They are liars and scoundrels.
It's good to turf out the old lot, but eventually you have to do the same to the new lot.
All politicians should be marked with a "best before" date.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: DMcG
Date: 02 May 05 - 11:18 AM

Don't put your trust in GUESTs, either. What effect do you think your post could have, GUEST,Tory Boy, apart from encourage Labour supporters to go and vote Labour if they were intending to do anything else? Or was that, perhaps, the point of the post?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:14 PM

I rather hope it was the idea. The mere thought thought of a Tory Government led by Michael Howard having to make good on all their recent immigration retoric - is enough to put me off my Bovril.

There is still the hope that a poor Labour Government can get better - or be forced to (by its core supporters). A Tory Government gives little real hope to anyone - and its core supporters - will only make a poor Tory Government - an even worse one.   

Please vote - but please don't vote in any way that will inflict the Tories upon us again.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:40 PM

Not that it would make any difference. Different monkeys....same organ-grinder. Give em a couple of years, they'll both be wearing jackboots...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Iggy Yank
Date: 02 May 05 - 01:56 PM

"Not that it would make any difference. Different monkeys....same organ-grinder. Give em a couple of years, they'll both be wearing jackboots..."

Good! We could use a reality show designed by Orwell...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:04 PM

Yes all politicians are self serving crooks. Lets leave it to the market then evything will be made by children in Asia for almost nothing at all and what a wonderful stable world we will have.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:25 PM

"Yes all politicians are self serving crooks"

No, i think there are a few politicians out there who are honestly trying to do some good. They're just not the ones who are going to be elected...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 02 May 05 - 04:54 PM

"Yes all politicians are self serving crooks"

The problem with that "argument" is that most politicians could do rather better for themselves out of politics. And most local politicians get little reward for their efforts.

In my experience most politicians are trying to work for their communities. I may agree or disagree with what they are doing but I do not doubt that they are doing their best according to their own political creed.

The advantage of the above comment is that it does not require the speaker to think rationally about the realities of policy decisions before coming out with it. It is far easier (and quicker) simply to write off the political process in a quick spasm of cynicism.

Which is a shame because we need people to think rather than just turn away.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 03 May 05 - 12:48 AM

Too late friends. The Conservative government-in-waiting has
out-thought and out-flanked you. You may not like it but there you are. 1970 all over again.

Don't worry all the lefty pro-Saddamites will have another chance to vote - in 2010 or 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Phillip P
Date: 03 May 05 - 01:49 AM

God I just do not know. Labour ahead in the national polls, but behind in marginal seats.
I thought I knew how to cast my vote but now I'm not sure. I wanted to teach Blair a lesson and happy to see Brown succeed quickly but now I might just vote Labour with one of Polly Toynbee's nose-pegs.
Or maybe I'll just roll dice.
Best of 3.
Oh God.


PP

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 May 05 - 02:25 AM

Trolly Boy, you make no more sense than...er...something that makes no sense. Why would the "Saddam-loving lefties" hand over power to Howard exactly? Anyway, your stats are crap, you picked that 10% drivel from Blair's own propaganda. And we know how much we can trust Blair, don't we?

It's everyone's civic responsibility to vote - for whomever they wish, And if they are not sure, for Lib Dems!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Boab
Date: 03 May 05 - 02:56 AM

"Leftie pro-Saddamites"? What an idiotic attempt at insult! Tory-boy, go away and prepare to continue worship of Tory Blair rather than Tory Howard, for that is the indicated outcome in spite of all the T.B lies and spin over the WMDs and the kow-towing with the Washington warmongers. There will be enough of the electorate who will put anti-Blair-stench pegs on their noses and vote for the British Labour Party in the UK. A reduced majority [and there WILL be--]might just convince the party to dump Blair, for he most surely has destroyed some lifelong loyalties during his glory-seeking tenure.
   No decent person is "pro-Saddam". But let's get things back to truth; this "war" was initiated on the flimsy pretence of Iraq's mythical weapons of mass destruction, NOT for the release of the Iraqi people from Saddam's tyranny. That, by some sleight of rhetoric, became the reputed reason for invasion only after the WMD crap became so patently just that---crap. Hope you enjoy your champagne, Tory Boy.; you have the same initials as Tory Tony. Perhaps that means you can't lose, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 May 05 - 03:15 AM

The real difference is that the tories are working for the ultra rich from day one. Tax breaks , share optons, golden backslaps for complete fuckwits who cause mass unemployment to drive the cost of employing menials down, more families broken up through financial hardship........the consequent social ills coming from that.


Unless you're already on a couple of hundred grand a year, theres sod all for you from tories, tory boy. they have no respect for the fools who vote for them.

And frankly, I find it pretty hard to respect them myself.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 May 05 - 03:25 AM

Nah, Trolly Boy 's a Blairite.
Not a supporter of the rich
But a supporter of the nouveau riche.
Two sides of the same coin.
Kennedy's the only honest politician (I am tongue-in-cheek here, guys).
But LibDems are currently the lesser of the three evils; and they did oppose the war; and Kennedy's got a brand new baby; and it would surely make for a reduced majority for Blair, if the LibDems got the votes they deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: alanabit
Date: 03 May 05 - 03:25 AM

Tory Boy, if you think it is 1970 all over again, you should bear in mind that Ted Heath, on his own admission, was a long way to the left of tony Blair. The Brits have a choice between a Labour Party (which however unlikely) might evolve and a Tory Party which is right wing enough to be thought of as ridiculous in most of Europe. I wouldn't like the menu much, but when I have the option between eating shit and something else...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Phillip P
Date: 03 May 05 - 08:26 AM

I do not have any time for the Tories, Michael Howard or Tory Boy or whatever they call themselves.
I dislike intensely their attacks on immigrants and the whole nature of their mean-spirited campaign.
My problem is that if I do not vote Labour, there is a good chance Tories will win where I come from - but I will find it difficult to vote for Blair's party. I might do in the future, when he goes but now, it would hurt too much.
Voting neither Lab nor Con won't help either.
I had a look at the Lib Dem stuff but could find no mention of lifting people out of poverty and that is a clincher for me. They seem to be pale Tories round here.

I was thinking of putting my cross for Labour but writng NOT BLAIR on the voting slip but I don't know if that will count as a spoiled paper.
God, I've never been a Don't Know before.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 03 May 05 - 08:59 AM

I agree with DMcG. "Toryboy" is obviously from Labour's campaign office, propogating Labour's current scare story: "If you vote Lib-Dem as a protest, you'll let the Tories in."

It's obviously nonsense. The Lib-Dems and Tories comprise the anti-Labour vote. So voting Lib-Dem just splits that opposition vote, possibly even strengthening Labour.

What's worrying is that, days before an election, Labour can't think of any better way of making you vote for them. Like policies, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Stu
Date: 03 May 05 - 09:14 AM

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss . . .

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Gervase
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:50 AM

Makes me glad I live in Wales - Plaid Cymru have policies I can actually support!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Micca
Date: 03 May 05 - 12:21 PM

This is a time for applying Micca's patent, "How to Vote" system

There may not be anyone I want to Vote For
But there is ALWAYS someone I want to Vote against

No Matter How much I dislike or disaprove of Blair and things he has done It isnt near as Much as I do of Howard and the Tories.
Unfortunately a Vote for teh Lib dems is a good way to split the vote and let the Tories in. and you must have a short memory if you want Tories in!!!!

As to Give Tony a Bloody Nose/send a Message to New Labour?
the trouble with that idea is you get sentenced to 5 years of the Howard Thatcherite Tories for doing it and that is like shooting yourself in the foot to get rid of a flea!!!!
You Know they will Privatise the NHS, Cut Public services to gve the Rich Tax breaks, sell off everything thats left that is Publicly owned at knock down prices to their mates in the City because its what they have done before, after all who was it that sold off rail, Water, Telecomms, Gas, Electricity, and Privatised hospital cleaning so that MRSA could get a hold (Yeah the SAME MRSA that Howard says they will fight and control!!) To use a current London expression " Your having a Giraffe"

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 03 May 05 - 12:44 PM

Micca, the stats don't support Blair's claim that "if 10% of Labour voters abstain or vote for LibDems, this will let the Tories in". The numbers just don't stack up. And anyway - helied about the war; would you trust him now in anything he says?

Blair's call for tactical voting is a sham. The Tories stand no chance; Labour is bound to get in. The best we can hope is for a reduced majority for Blair, and a little bit more of "checks and balances" with a stronger Lib Dem faction.

Anyway - Kennedy's baby is so cute!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Micca
Date: 03 May 05 - 01:56 PM

George, people say Blair lied about the war as if it is something NEW!!!!! They ALL lie, its what being a Politician is about!! They promise things they can't deliver so that we will elect them and lie in their teeth all the time, The Only reason the Lib Dems are being a bit "Honest" is they are hoping for MORE POWER out of it and if the get it they will be corrupted by it. I just think, in the main, the ordinary voter gets a better deal from Labour than Conservative but I am with Avrell Harriman " The desire to be elected to office should bar you from standing"

" Power corrupts and absolute Power corupts absolutely"

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 May 05 - 02:26 PM

Your individual votes count for one and no more than one, in constituencies of 50 to 60 thousand voters, of whom maybe half will vote.

Changing policies and parties takes time and commitment and much discussion and not a little compromise with like minded people.

That's why we have political parties. Stop going on about one vote. Join a party and do something while you still have the chance. The course of party politics is going down hill.

We may end up with the American experience where only the very rich can stand for president and most people dont bother to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 May 05 - 02:44 PM

Makes me glad I live in Wales - Plaid Cymru have policies I can actually support!

How do they stand on 'hunting with dogs'? *Smiles*

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 05 - 03:28 PM


How do they stand on 'hunting with dogs'
What about hunting with bitches instead?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: mandoleer
Date: 03 May 05 - 04:39 PM

Best we can hope for is a Parliament with a very close majority. If either get a vast majority, they'll be unbearable. If it only takes a few rebels in the ranks to upset the apple cart, they're far more careful. I'm still going to vote for Your Party. Just to be awkward. And I still believe we should have two votes - one positive and one negative.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:11 PM

Some of the self serving comments on this thread disgust me.
Especially Miccas' writing off Blairs war crimes with the cavalier "Oh well they all lie"

This was not simply a lie about economics or public spending, but a scam to achieve a place in history, which caused the deaths of over 80 British troops and who knows how many innocent men women and children.

As i'v said on another thread, the sight of mutilated infants in Iraq comes back to me often.

There is only one issue in this election. The depravity of those who take glory and power before the lives of innocent children.

Blair had a choice, America would have removed Saddam without the UK.
They announced as much well before the war, but Blair could not resist a bid for glory.

BI is correct all politicians are self serving crooks.
National politicians are not stupid and are only too aware that nothing much can be done under this system to make society better, but they still propagate the idea that they or their party can solve the problems.

In other words we are all fools, conned into believing their electoral game is reality.

If politicians were honest ,they would tell the electorate that if we dont change our lifestyle, take a dramatic cut in our standard of living, and slash energy production, the planet will be fucked in 50 years.

But what do I know? I'm a "utopian idealist living in cloud cuckoo land"

In my opinion, those who believe this system can be changed from within, by socialism or any other ism are the real fools.

Start fighting back in July 2005.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Cllr
Date: 03 May 05 - 06:45 PM

good to see shambles supporting the party that brought us PEL laws, Way to go shambles, not as an important an issue to you as I thought obviously, Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 03 May 05 - 09:02 PM

Well! Some have got the impression that I'm a fan of labouring party.
Not so - but I shouldn't have filched their 10% figure. Our own number was close but not quite as sexy as their 10% so I just sexed it up a little. We didn't think they'd actually start using it themselves on posters! I truly believe Blair is a snake-oil salesman who has never told the truth about anything. The rest of labouring party are just as bad.

My whole family circle is Conservative. We believe in the market, free enterprise, hard work, Britain, hunting. We are not keen on unlimited immigrants or bogus asylumers.
Dad was once a candidate but in safe labouring seat so got screwed. I was once a front-line doorstepper and phone-poller but now provide support.

We are in favour of the war but displeased that we were lied to. I'm sorry that some lefties take offence but if you were not in favour of deposing Saddam, you were in favour of retaining him. Seems obvious. Anyway, lets be friendly, even if we disagree.

My mates keep me up to date and I let you know some of it. My purpose in posting is for the pure delight of gloating.
I have had gloating thrust upon me in the past. It's now my turn.
The news from the campaign is good and we are still confident that Michael will be off to the Palace before lunch on Friday.

Many thanks

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Cllr
Date: 04 May 05 - 04:41 AM

I'm a real tory and proud of it, the reason people believe you (guest tory boy) are a labour supporter is because labour's main worry is a low turnout and by postive provocative posts you are making people go out and that they do vote labour. gloating is not a nice thing and reinforces the view that conservatives are not nice people so the only reasonable conclusion is that you are a liar or an idiot. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:45 AM

I think you're probably right there, Cllr, about "Tory Boy" being a front, designed to make people vote Labour.

Mind you, if I saw Michael Howard for the first time, I think I'd be inclined to think the same of him...

I'm glad to see you stick to name "Tory" - I gather the party line now is that it should be abandoned. I imagine that's an idea that will be dropped after Thursday, along with Michael Howard and a lot of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: robomatic
Date: 04 May 05 - 05:51 AM

For some reason, the public broadcasting station (radio) in Boston broadcasts BBC news early in the morning while the locals are waking up and looking for the 'on' button to their coffee makers.

who won the Revolution, anyway? (visions of Paul Revere returning from warning the colonists settling down with a crumpet and a (very) antique wireless tuned to the Beeb)

They are interviewing a pollster paid by the BBC who says:
1) The Kerry effect - During the US election Kerry gave American voters lots of reasons to vote against 'W', but not enough reasons to vote FOR Kerry. Likewise, the Conservatives have been beating on Blair but generating severe revulsion in voters against voting for Michael Howard.
2) So a lot of folks are induced to vote Liberal Democrat, even though few can tell you what they stand for!

The pollster says Blair will win and the Lib Dems will place a stronger than expected third. (BTW, he's American)








I think it goes to show what we've known all along: Democracy's for suckers!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:46 AM

good to see shambles supporting the party that brought us PEL laws, Way to go shambles, not as an important an issue to you as I thought obviously, Cllr

A party political approach to the Licensing Act 2003 issue will not provide us with much solace.

The Tories opposed the new Act because they were the oppositition and had to - but as usual did not really provide much of an alternative. Have you seen the Tories mention it in this run-up?

The Lib Dems peers were the ones most to blame - for if they had actually voted with the Tories (having supported them up to that point)- this would have killed the Licensing Act 2003. They did the Lib Dem thing by still talking against the Bill but voting with the Government.

This is not much of an excuse for Labour rushing to introduce such a piss-poor Act - but there is a possiblity that if the effect on live music does prove to be as harmful as many of us fear - that the Powers within the Act itself - will allow the Secretary of State to tweak the Act. That is what has been promised - anyway....*Smiles*

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 05 - 10:54 AM

Aw come on Shambles, "That is what has been promised", that's it, we're screwed. When did they last fulfil any promise?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 May 05 - 11:04 AM

I do however have to contrast the differences.

Over the Licensing issue - I rather had to push my own Labour MP to do anything and wait forever for a reply. Over a long period I only had two (standard) replies from the DCMS - signed by Kim Howells.

Living in the seat with the smallest Labour majority - in the last few weeks I have received much from my sitting MP, two letters from Tony Blair and one from Gordon Brown!

There is a local election too and councillors who have given me the 'bum's rush' over local licensing issues - are now knocking on my door and expecting me to vote for them.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Cllr
Date: 04 May 05 - 11:37 AM

we didn't oppose it because we had to shambles   we opposed it because it was more interference from this nanny state government and we thought it was badly thought out and wrong. cllr

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 05 - 12:25 PM

Knee-jerk slogans like "nanny-state government" don't really add up to much. If the implication is that this government is particulary anti-liberatarian, and that the Tories would be the other way round, that's a little bit implausible.

I can't see how legalising 24 hour drinking and casinos, and down-grading the penalities against people who smoke grass are particularly nannyish. I can't see how opposing such measures is particularly libertarian.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 04 May 05 - 12:33 PM

Anyway, it would be nice to see Blair hit where it hurts - in the marginals...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 May 05 - 12:54 PM

The one thing I have noticed is that Nice Mr Kennedy is the only major Party Leader who HASNT resorted to insulting the other Party Leaders . He at least maintains the appearance of being a gentleman !

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Barden of England
Date: 04 May 05 - 12:54 PM

Ain't no way that the Tories are going to win, that much is obvious. Regarding the licensing I've given all the landlords round here copies of section 177 of the act, and reminded them that they need to 'tick the box' if they wanted Karaoke even. Of course once they get the necessary approval on their Premises Licence and the place has less than 200 people and it's accoustic music, and it's between the hours of 08:00 and 24:00 there's bugger all the council officials can do, so keep pushing the publicans.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 May 05 - 01:03 PM

The lowest infaltion, the lowest unemployment, the minimum wage, the tax credits for poorest earners, the investment in education and health, the anti-hunt act, repeal of anti gay and lesbian legislation, the right to roam with access to wild places.

Blair may have judged it wrong on the war but after 15 years of UN resolutions we have one less fascist dictator.

As for the rest of the comments above most politicians, like most people, and I mean of all parties except the far right, are honest and hard working. Many people who are directors on boards of companies do not work hard or serve the public well. And at the risk of ranting - voting is essential, but so is organising inside parties if you really want democracy.

If all you ever do is vote we will all be waving democracy good bye.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Gervase
Date: 04 May 05 - 01:37 PM

Plaid on hunting? Simon Thomas, our sitting Plaid MP is all in favour. Makes it even easier to support him!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 May 05 - 01:58 PM

Must be a bit difficult - whilst he is sitting on you and you are supporting him - when you come to a fence you have to jump? Or does he just hit you a bit harder with the riding crop?

*Smiles*

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 05 - 06:44 PM

He inherited that inflation rate and unemployment from the Tories, the minimum wage is far too low, investment in education and health has mostly disappeared in layers of unnecessary beaurocracy, teachers have too much paperwork to be able to devote enough time to teaching our kids, hospitals are filthy, understaffed, and only able to cut waiting time by booking ops and then cancelling them (sending the patients back to the start of the procedure), and the right to roam is limited to how far you can walk from home, given that public transport is obscenely expensive, and unreliable, especially at weekends, which is the time most people have the leisure to roam.

Against that lot, banning hunting, and repealing gay and lesbian laws, while right, and welcome, doesn't stack up to much for eight years work.

Add in your "misjudgement" about the war (blatant dishonesty, and contempt for both due process, and the British people) and he doesn't exactly fit into your honest and hardworking category.

He should go Les, now, before the election, and since he will not, voting is indeed essential, to reduce his majority (the best we can hope for) to the point where his party will be forced to ditch him.

As long as we have parties using the "whip" to keep their MPs in line, internal change is impossible, so they have to be hit hard at the election, pour encourager les autres.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 May 05 - 02:18 PM

I went today without realising I had my red glasses on. The person outside wanted my voting number - WHY?

I said to her "are you an official" and with her negative reply I asked her why she wanted to know. On seeing the Blue rosette I pointed out that my glasses where not to be read as anything other than a pair of glasses worn by a poser. What arrogance to have people clocking yer number. They have all that inside, and it's official, and the politcal parties don't get an automatic sniff of that data.

I walked past two other polling stations (And there may be one near the Folk Club I am going to) just to wind them up on there own assumptions.

As one PM put it when asked how he managed to vote "I just hold my nose and mark the paper"

FWIW I never espouse any political party, regardles of my voting preferrence. Red is sartorial and long may it be so,

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: brid widder
Date: 05 May 05 - 03:23 PM

I too have never been a 'don't know' before... and if it was just about home...economy, health, education etc, I don't think I would have a problem today.... but the party I have supported all my life has taken me to war with a country and people with whom I have no argument...why? to support the biggest bully in the playground? with or without the lies I cannot condone that or support them to do it again...to Iran? Korea?

God forbid that the Tories should ever be in power again... but I am sure the balance of power will change tonight, maybe we will be in a situation where the three major parties need to negotiate with each other... would that be such a bad thing?

I think the situation might have been different if Tony had resigned... but he is insisting not only that the Labour party is the right one for the future but that he is the right leader. He is therefore asking for my support to make a similar decision again... if HE feels it is 'the right thing to do'... regardless of the UN.

After a lifetime as a Labour Party supporter my concience will not allow me to continue that support today.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 May 05 - 03:59 PM

Don T,

I recognise the need for geater public investment in health and education. The Labour Party campaigned for that since Callaghan and Wilson and we got 18 years of Thatcher.

I have worked for greater public spending. If that is what you want go and argue for it and I hope you get more seats than we did between '79 and '97.

You might be right about Blairs bad judgement and I guess he will go.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 May 05 - 04:10 PM

Wars are happening in the world as we speak wars have happened in the past and will happen in the future -conflict is the nature of mankind, we are territorial by nature and if someone invaded your territory, you would fight tooth and nail to defend it. what makes our involvement in one war any more terrible than ignoring-as the United Nations have- the attrocities in Ruanda, or Daifur- we sit on our high horses saying the Iraq war was terrible-(well all wars are)-but do nothing about Daifur but sit and watch them die -I hated the war in Iraq no more than I hated seeing the terror and depravation the Iraqi people have suffered for years. The UN is as corrupt and self serving as any individual Government (US or UK)-countless broken resolutions by Israel have proven that. Please remember for every person killed at war three will die of starvation why we sit and prevaricate about it.The solution to war is to find a solution to poverty-it is the only solution and I believe Labour is the only true means of finding that.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:22 PM

Blair ,Straw,Hoon......Evil warmongers.


Linda Kelly............Apologist for the above.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:36 PM

Absolutely not- and are you an apologist for the 'let's watch it happen before our eyes and do nothing brigade'?
I don't have to be accountable to anyone-members of my family have risked their lives in Kosovo and Iraq-I have no desire to be involved
in any conflict thankyou. Just shut your eyes and your eyes and don't let that world out there crowd in and make it uncomfortable for you will you?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:53 PM

Blair is now the projected winner according to Yahoo news.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 05 - 07:18 PM

We already know that Martin, and it means Britain is the loser.

DT

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 05 - 10:30 PM

Tories lost! Cheers everybody!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Boab
Date: 06 May 05 - 03:37 AM

Martin---you are like some journalists I know; the British people weren't voting for Tony Blair. They were voting for the party of their choice, which turned out to be New Labour---with unfortunately Tony Blair as their leader. Let's hope that he accepts that he has been a liability in this election, and finds the grace to resign.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:30 AM

There isn't a 'New Labour' party, just the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:33 AM

Well said Boab, and I'd like to add, as a committed Tory voter, how pleased I was to see that Bob Marshall-Andrews (genuine labour) was returned to parliament. He is an honourable man, who commands my respect for his refusal to toe the party line when he believes that line to be wrong.

Mudcatters particularly are indebted to him for his stance against the PEL legislation.

He said in an interview that Tony B should go, sooner rather than later, and it is my earnest hope that there are enough like him to rid us of that glory seeking liar.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 May 05 - 12:08 PM

Well said Boab, and I'd like to add, as a committed Tory voter, how pleased I was to see that Bob Marshall-Andrews (genuine labour) was returned to parliament. He is an honourable man, who commands my respect for his refusal to toe the party line when he believes that line to be wrong.

Did things change then? Before my eyes closed for the night - I saw him being interviewed and accepting defeat...........He said that If Tony Blair was having a bad night -

There were some strange results. My Labour MP was returned with his majority increased from 20 odd to 2000 odd. With a 3% swing to Labour?
the Lib Dem share of the vote here - seem to collapse and go to Labour - in order to prevent the Tory I suspect? Although he was a rather poor Tory candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 06 May 05 - 12:25 PM

Sorry Tory Boy - lost again! This was the party of "Natural Government" - born to lead; 80 years out of 100 between 1887 and 1997 etc etc. Labour have done the impossible - a 3rd term, despite the Iraq war, despite the immigration furore, despite the negativity of the media-driven agenda, despite the Tory's flavour of the month "leader" throwing endless lumps of (Bull) shit at the labour wall. Know this - given the background to this dirty election, every Tory voter will have turned out last night for certain. That's it - your best shot - way off target.

Thank your lucky stars for Iraq - without it Labour would have won another landslide victory and consigned the Tories to the dustbin of history (where they belong) for the next 100 years.

Next time maybe they'll elect a leader of substance (though God only knows where from), and manage to come up with a genuine prospectus for government instead of the dreary mantra of limited drivel they laughingly called a policy for change. How difficult is it to clean a hospital? (Much more difficult than enforcing private contractors to make them filty of course). How difficult is it to draw up a prospectus for Government? (Impossible for the Tories it seems).

Ask yourself why the Tories had endless billions of Oil revenues, revenues from multiple Privatisations, revenues from cash-strapped rate-capped councils, and 18 continuous years to put our country to rights on issues such as "Cleaner Hospitals" "More Police" "Lower Taxes" blah, blah f****** blah, and yet were dumped unceremoniously on their fat priveledged arses with the biggest landslide defeats in generations.

Well, slime-ball Howard has gone the way of the other two obnoxious pillocks and good riddance. Will the next candidate sign in please?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 05 - 12:39 PM

Bob Marshall-Andrews was in fact reelected - gave an interview while the count was still going saying he thought he'd lost - and saying that his being out of the Commons might be one thing that would cheer up Tony, if he was having a bad night generally.

But in fact he scraped in "'Beaten' Labour MP keeps his seat"

The slightly laughable thing is the way the papers today are trying to present the result as a kind of triumph for Michael Howard - with a result that in most elections would have been seen as a landslide defeat for him.

The truth is, if they couldn't beat Tony Blair this time, they really are in longterm trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:03 PM

I'm not sure now, but I saw him interviewed this am, and I understood them to have said he scraped in.

Does anyone else know for sure?

There were a number of recounts late last night, where first results were reversed, and I do hope he was in there somewhere.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:06 PM

"Mr Blair!! This is for Iraq".

"All the lies you told and all the people you killed have come back to haunt you, and the best thing the Labour party can do, is sack you!!.

George Galloway is back to haunt New Labour and to see the final demise of Tony B Liar.

Heres hoping he will continue to be a thorn in the flesh of our own little gang of criminals.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:10 PM

Have a look at that link I gave you, Don. His majority is way down, but he's back in the Commons, much to his surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 05 - 02:26 PM

Great news McGrath. I posted without seeing your posting, but your blicky gave a "cannot find server" when I tried it just now.

However, it's pleasing to know that an honest man is back in Westminster, even if I don't necessarily agree with him. There are far too few of his ilk in all parties.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:42 PM

I realize that the people do not elect the PM, but I'm glad that his party chose Tony Blair for PM. He has been a great ally to the U. S. in the war on Terorism.
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:17 PM

Doug....Today Friday, 62 Iraqis killed by car-bomber.

Shiites massacre Sunnis, grave found containing the newly killed bodies.

Inevitable civil war gets closer every day.

Democracy??   Are you kidding?

Do you know how many Iraqis have been killed in the last week?

Far from winning a "War on Terror" in Iraq, the UK USA are causing the deaths by continuing the occupation.
There were no fundamentalist terrorists in Iraq before the war.

Last night, in the UK election ,the result in Mr Blairs constituency was shown on TV.
The father of one of the young soldiers killed in Iraq stood against Blair. The man polled about one fifth of the votes received by Blair, and after the result was announced, made a powerful denouncment of Blair and the UK govt for causing the death of his son and over 80 other young men, by dragging them into an illegal and unnecessary war.

Blair and his wife could only look straight ahead like dummies while the father told them of the grief his actions had caused.

A defining moment in the career of Mr Blair, who is finished politically, and if I am any sort of judge, psychologically....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 05 - 05:21 PM

Here's the relevant bit from that BBC site http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/vote_2005/england/4520257.stm

Marshall-Andrews surprised himself by holding his Medway seat after publicly declaring before the declaration he would lose it.

Mr Marshall-Andrews, who held his seat by 213 votes, blamed the "unpopularity" of Tony Blair for his reduced majority.

"My majority was 3,750, it's gone down to 213," he said.

...............
Fair enough Doug - though Michael Howard was just as strong on backing Bush, so either way your man would have been in. (Of course, in US political terms Howard too would count being as well to the left of centre... Probably to the left of Kerry for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 05 - 07:07 PM

So how is the Silly Party doing?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 07 May 05 - 12:50 AM

Ah well, the people have spoken. What a sad night it was.
I am depressed that Michael Howard has resigned as he was the only leader of principle in this election. Michael told the truth - and the truth resonated with the people on the doorsteps and on the phones.
People do want clean hospitals.
People do want their country back.
People desperately want tax cuts.

labouring party lied and lied again - but it will do them no good because their majority is slim and they are sitting in so many marginals that, next time, they will be out for keeps.
The ridiculous Libdems were routed. 62 seats - after trying to be all things to all men. Their so-called decapitation strategy utterly failed, save for Tim Collins they only took labouring seats.

So cheer up friends. Our next leadership contest will soon be on its way. As usual I will try to keep you up to date with what is really happening on the ground. Those of you with your heads still up in the air may like to join me down here in reality land!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 May 05 - 02:43 AM

So how is the Silly Party doing?

It has been explained to Tory Boy how his party fared.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Boab
Date: 07 May 05 - 03:32 AM

I seldom am driven to cruel critique of another's views; but Tory Boy---what a load of blarney!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:16 AM

Seems it was a case of 'better the devil you know'... but the increase of the Marginals should serve to let both Blair and Howard know that people are not so forgiving as they would hope.

Was interesting seeing Jeremy 'Pitbull' Paxman interviewing George Galloway... his first (second, third and fourth) question was 'are you proud of yourself for ousting one of the few black women MPs?' George was understandably narked at this and suggested Mr Paxman should congratulate him on winning, as he had congratualated all the winning candidates before. Seems Mr Pitbull has met his match....


LTS

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 05 - 07:20 AM

Thread drift ... Paxman of late has tried this 'repeating the question' approach so often that it is now usually fails. There was a session on Newnight about a week ago when he tried it with Martin McGuiness, who simply repeated "I've already answered that question. Have you another you want to ask me?" ... stalemate.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 May 05 - 07:43 AM

Paxman's lost it for me. At first his aggressive attitude was welcome, but by now he has started to believe his own publicity, and like a "weakest link Anne" he is playing up to his own image, leading him to do silly things - like starting to throw barbs towards colleagues on election night. I did not take kindly to his reference to Snow's graphic presentations as "those preposterous graphics" with a sneer.

His shambolic repetition of the same question just makes him look like he has lost the ability to corner an interviewee legitimately.

Being an aggressive interviewer is one thing. Being obnoxious, quite another.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 May 05 - 12:26 PM

George Galloway deseves to be in prison, rather than Parliment. I have just spent the last month campaigning for the Tory party, and if I had been able to vote in that seat, I would have voted for Oona King.

The constituancy has lost a good local MP, and have got a raving lunatic who makes Blair look honest instead. Galloway is anti-war, but probably only so he could have more holidays with his freind Saddam.

Bunnahabhain.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 May 05 - 12:38 PM

With you there Bun.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:00 PM

Aye all you Tories love George.

Well Im glad to see him back to torment New Labour.
He's one of the few orators left in parliament and I love to hear him rant against all the wrongs committed by our slimy government.

George is an inspirational speaker and thats why his enemies hate him so much. Bit of a "wide boy" maybe, but you need your wits about you when your arguing with sleaze bags...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 07 May 05 - 04:23 PM

So why should George be hanged? He was telling the truth Blair was lying. He has never ordered bombing of cities or villages, He has not ordered an illegal invasion. He was never Saddams friend; he was urging opposition to Saddam when UK and US were supplying him with WMD.

Galloway has been subject to the most sustained campaign of vilification and demonisation I have ever seen but still the people of Bethnal Green were convinced to vote for him maybe they listened to the argument, close up and in detail.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 May 05 - 02:48 AM

Let us not forget that George was a very public, pro-soviet, stalinist who saluted Saddam.

What does that say about his judgement?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 08 May 05 - 12:47 PM

What does that say about his judgement?

In our country - that is still up to the electorate to judge. And whatever we may think - the voters of Bethnal Green did just that...................

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 09 May 05 - 09:48 AM

"So cheer up friends. Our next leadership contest will soon be on its way. As usual I will try to keep you up to date with what is really happening on the ground. Those of you with your heads still up in the air may like to join me down here in reality land!"

I LOVE this guy (Tory Boy) - what a wonderful natural comic he is. Keep these posts coming Tory Boy; I love a good chuckle. The Tories ended up with less seats than Labour did under Michael Foot (their lowest ever point) and still have 150-odd seats less than Labour despite a massive protest vote by Labour voters turning to the Lib Dems. The only "progress" the Tories made was based entirely on this protest vote. The "great" Maggie Thatcher came to power in 1979 with only a 20 seat majority - and how those Tory Boys 'n Girls went wild. How bad can it get for the Tories?

As their share of the vote has flatlined on those bedrock-solid traditional blue-rinse coffee-morning dearies/luvvies we have all come to admire for their mis-placed fortitude, it's fair to assume they're finished as an effective political force. In "reality land" our friend Tory Boy can expect to meet up with the rabbit checking his timepiece any time now.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:46 AM

Although a natural optimist, as you know, I have to confess to one niggling worry at the minute - that labouring party might tell Tony Blair to sling his hook.

Not much on the leadership contest - except Yeo and Soames who may probably run or not - but they're both moderniser-as-water so we are waiting for some real red-blooded, one-of-us', Dries to emerge.

But on the bright side did you see that Justine Greening from Putney??
Ha ha, she'll soon get you on the run.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:14 PM

The only one likely ever to have got Labour on the run was the one remaining heavyweight puncher left in a thoroughly intellect-impoverished party, and that was Kenneth Clarke. He must be shaking his very considerable brain in total disbelief at the sorry state of your once great political party.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:47 PM

Ha ha, she'll soon get you on the run.

Only afterwards - if anyone were unwise enough to eat her. I may like her - as I may also like children - but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: RichardP
Date: 09 May 05 - 07:28 PM

Little known fact to cheer up Don, Tory Boy, Cllr etc! In over 200 years of Tory history only 4 leaders have failed to be Prime Minister - Austen Chamberlain and the last three. Now they are about to choose a fifth.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 10 May 05 - 03:22 AM

Come on Tory boy, you must realise that the time and tide of politics has changed, you seem to be locked in a time warp, it is solely because of people like you that the tory party is unelectable. I hate to tell you this, but mobile phones are smaller these days, loadsamoney is not funny anymore, and shakin stevens hasn't been at no 1 for years. Its time to move on, I am a Tory voter, but I don't want to win an election by sneaking in the back door, I want the party to unite and present it's common sense policies in a way that will influence the public at large, the British public has showed that it wants services that benefit all, I believe the tory party can deliver this, in a way that benefits all, and gives people self respect and a belief in themselves, the next election is there for the taking, but not if misguided people still present the party as an elitist organisation, the modern Conservative party is there for all to benefit from, and to give choice to all people, try putting the positive across. And we just might see a proper Conservative Government rather than a unpopular bunch of backscratchers that have gained power by luck. and will get booted out in 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 May 05 - 05:31 AM

Right on the mark, Steve. Now, will you tell MH, or shall I?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 05 - 06:57 AM

The right one to take over as leader of the Tories would be Tony Blair, crossing the floor of the house, as a one-nation Conservative. There's nothing in his politiocs that would have upset Macmillan or Macleod, though he might have been a bit right-wing for their tastes on a few issues.

Tories have always prided themselves on being pragmatic and adaptable to achieve power; and as the leader of a reformed New Conservative Party Tony would probably have a much longer shelf-life as a successful politician, and he'd be in the History books for something other than Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:05 AM

Hi Don t, i think MH already knows this, thats why he's off, in a few months rather than immediately. they will start to groom new faces now, just watch over the next few months, new young faces will start to make progress, what they really need is someone who has been successful due to conservative policies, not some spotty face geek who has never done a real job, this is a problem that is rife in the labour party, most the M.P's have only ever been to university before working for the labour party as filing clerks. and this is starting to show, now he's left with all his hardcore labour seats outnumbering his new league of followers, he is at the mercy of Old Labour. this should be music to the Tory ears,,,, if they cant make this work, they really are a spent force.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:20 PM

I see that my MP has been rewarded for being so faithful to Mr Blair's party line. He is to be a Junior Minister in DEFRA.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:46 PM

The only thing Ken Clarke ever shook was his todger, and that he shook non-stop.

Marshall-Andrews for PM!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:43 PM

The Party will have to find him a safer seat first....

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Maxine
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:36 PM

Well, Guest Stevie D to take MH place I reckon. I've been a life long Labour voter but Stevie D gets my vote!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Saymore Fortescue
Date: 10 May 05 - 11:26 PM

This Osbourne lad is now Shadow Chancellor.
Could be a good bet.
What are the odds?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,ToryBoy
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:34 AM

Well StevieD you sound just like old labouring party!
We want a real Conservative party with real conservative policies, not some re-hash of labouring party namby-pamby nanny-state political correctness, thank you.

Out of Europe
Low taxes
Controlled immigration
Support USA foreign policy
Proper Grammar schools
End welfare scrounging

We will get a new leader by Christmas, I've asked everyone in the frame for their views.
Nil Desperandum.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:46 AM

This Osbourne lad is now Shadow Chancellor.

Ozzy's son may be better.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 05:59 AM

Almost a good post, Tory Boy, but you fell down at one hurdle. What the hell has a blanket support of American foreign policy got to do with running this country?

Stick to the issues that matter to the people of THIS fair land, and let Dubya screw up the rest of the world on his own.

We don't need to be tarred with the same brush as a war hungry, wannabe world boss.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:34 AM

Nice one tory boy. I would add one thing though, people on the dole should have to work for it.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:35 AM

100! And, bring back fox hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,ToryBoy
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:16 AM

Don T
Sorry mate if you don't understand that W's foreign policy is about democracy.


But that reminds me I have forgotten my manners.
I have to say a big thank you to all the lefties who were anti-war and loved saddam and who voted LD or something else and ensured that the pro-war Conservative party gained 54 seats!
I love that!
Not only that, labouring party are left with a load of marginals. They will topple next time for sure.

Yes Ted, un-ban hunting (though we can all ignore the law anyway as no-one bothers about it).

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,john
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:45 AM

Interesting fact=
In England more people voted for Conservative than for Labour.
Conservative=37%
Labour      =36%
result =Labour Win!


The tories were robbed, its like a football match-
Arsenal-5 Manchester-4 and Manchester been declared the winners.

I voted Conservative, I had Conservative posters in my windows, though I didn't see any other houses with Conservative posters up in Hull.
I usually vote Labour, but Tony Blair is a lying sack of shit, and I can't stand him, George Galloways speech was brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:38 PM

McGrath: I agree that Tony Blair will be in the history books but for an entirely different reason than you probably think. He will be in the history books BECAUSE he, along with Bush and the other coalition forces overthrew two despotic regimes and helped to bring democracy to that region.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:39 PM

Back in the real world 71 Iraqis were killed today (wednesday) and Mr Blair was given a standing ovation by a meeting of the parliamentary Labour Party.

There are on this forum people of the left, I am one of them, but I will never understand any who support those who knowingly took this country to war under false pretenses.

If we support this action, our socialist principles have gone, and Im afraid that I feel those principles were not there to begin with in the case of many Mudcatters.
Apparently those MPs who protested at todays meeting were shouted down by the Blair loyalists.

Isnt "Democracy" wonderful.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:50 PM

Ignore the law Tory Boy? What a disgrace! How are the conservatives to reclaim their place as the party of law and order if they fail to obey the law- to the letter!!

Could it be that tories are hypocrites?

George Galloway's speech was a disgrace. The man is a ranting demagogue and the sooner we are all rid of him the better. Quite happy to shake the tyrant's hand. Another cup of tea Mr Galloway why thank you Mr Saddam and Happy christmas Mr Aziz. Well at least the SWP has an MP - of course it could only get an MP elected by them pretending not to be the SWP.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 05 - 02:52 PM

Tory Boy,

I'm sorry that YOU don't understand that Dubya's policies are all about control, and oil. He can't even manage to run a democracy in his own country.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:15 PM

"Out of Europe"
Uh, why? What's wrong with Europe? They have nice cheeses. And i'm sure you'd still be allowed the odd union jack toting drunken football hooligan :)

"Low taxes"
I agree, totally. Why have taxes at all, when we can visit the little public services fairy who lives under the bramblebush?

"Controlled immigration"
Certainly, we wouldn't want anyone bringing any skills into the country... unless of course they're white. In that case, fine!

"Support USA foreign policy"
What, unconditionally? Fantastic! I'll go grab my gun and lets shoot some infidels!

"Proper Grammar schools"
I suppose you're right here....there's no point improving the education system as a whole. It's only the little rich boys who are gpoing to get the decent jobs anyway, after all...

"End welfare scrounging"
Indeed. I, for one, want to know that absolutely none of my money ever goes towards helping someone worse off than myself!


Good Lord, i think i'm a Tory...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:29 PM

Great post BI.

Fancy a golfing weekend at Gleneagles?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:54 PM

Hi ya Tory boy, your absolutely right, the points you make do make sense, only you wont put them across with an eltist attitude. of course we should not be a part of europe, we are in a unique position, we are the U.S.A's european ally, that is the way it should remain, this doesnt mean that we shouldnt trade with europe to the benefit of the people of this nation. there are many wealthy nations that need our services, lets not neglect them.
As for low taxes, of course anyone can see that we are taxed too highly, Labour conned it's way into power on a manifesto that it would not increas income tax but would increase spending by slashing beauracracy, it has not done this, but has increased the tax burden to hard working decent families.if the tory party truly follows this line, taxes will fall, if we stop being petrified by the dreaded words "PRIVATE HEALTH CARE", and realise that the rest of europe uses both private and public, and laugh at our system, taxes will be falling, everyone from the richest to the poorest will get the same healthcare.

Controlled immigration, your right again, lets process people quickly, lets set a policy that provides emergency accomodation within a controlled environment. that then gives people private accomodation, paid for 6 weeks with a job in the area, then you on your own as a tax payer in the system,,,, just watch the immigration problem stop.

Support USA foreign policy, O,K should we suppport a policy blindly, are we not worthy of voicing an opinion in the wider world, while i agree the U.S is a power for the general good of the world, it doesnt mean that they are always right. why can we not be a friend who just puts the voice of reason to good friend,,,, it's always wise to take a mate with you when you buy a car. it stops the wow factor.

Proper Grammar schools, again your right, academic excellence should be properly directed, but with that in mind, should we not give trades the same respect, it takes 5 years to train to become a doctor, it takes a lifetime to become a proper joiner. everyone has their worth. if we carry on with the view that you can only achieve anything if you go to university, we will carry on kidding ourselves that our politicians will make a change.

End welfare scrounging, this is a massive problem, it is seeded in the depths of desperation. when you need to earn 36 grand a year to break even, and you can only earn 15 grand, what do you do, this is a problem that can only be adressed by pushing people to achieve self ambition, get people out of the poverty trap by giving support to start own businesses, lets drop the level of lower income tax, if you take a part time job, why should you pay extra income tax. lets not tax overtime to a certain amount.... all these things will push people to achieve a standard of living. life is only worth living if your living it to your full potential, although, a ford focus on the drive bought and paid for, when you have come from a deprived background, is worth much more than 20 rolls royces when you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... this is a long term problem that starts with school, what we need to do is stop being wooly liberalist and address these problems.

O.K Tory boy, we think on the same wavelength, the Tory party must unite and put forward coherent policies, if it is clever enough it will see that it can steal left ground that appeals to everyone, and put them forward with a Conservative agenda.... but lets not look to the marginals, when Sunderland returns a Conservative M.P, we know we have won........heart and soul.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:14 PM

I really am gonna have to become a member.... this soooooooo addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: akenaton
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:33 PM

OH fuck!!!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 05 - 06:00 PM

akenaton:has it ever occured to you that the continued failure of socialists to have their way might be ...because it is a failed philosophy? I didn't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:32 PM

Akenaton...i would, but i can't afford it, me being a communist and all. A communist- one who has nothing, and wants to share it with you.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:36 PM

"akenaton:has it ever occured to you that the continued failure of socialists to have their way might be ...because it is a failed philosophy? I didn't think so"

And have you ever considered that the continued failures of both capatalism and socialism might be due to that most disgusting part of human nature, the desire for ultimate power?

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 10:40 PM

BINGO!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:01 PM

Bingo? Full fucking house, mate...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,ToryBoy
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:13 PM

Thank you Stevie D, with you on most of that.

On "elitism" though, I believe that some people have indeed had it better than others and that's just tough, life's like that, we can't all be equals.

However for our leftie friends, a few thoughts on how to reduce the tax burden.
Reintroduce secondary modern schools and reduce the compulsory leaving age to 15. Sec Mod kids, who just cause havoc in schools anyway, can learn a trade and leave at 15 to work on building sites etc.
With money saved on education, reduce income tax.


There are far too many new hospitals being built. Transfer their ownership to the private sector. With money saved that Blair spends on running new hospitals, reduce income tax.

With reductions on income tax comes choice.

Many people will choose to educate their children in the independent sector therefore less money needed for state schools, then more income tax reductions possible.

Many people will choose private health insurance and thus less money needed for the NHS. Reduce income tax.

All that is required is a relentless assault on public spending and a redistribution of the money saved into the pockets of joe public.

Life will be transformed. Now we need a decent leader with the will to push forward and not get embroiled in nannying people who just want to scrounge off the state - leave these to labouring party!

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 May 05 - 11:32 PM

Many people will do this, many people will do that....many people will not. Rich people will, and sorry mate, but they're in a minority. That's why they're rich. I suggest you take a good look at your own education, especially at those parts of history you seem to have skipped. You know, the ones that prove how repression leads to unrest...how inequality leads to crime...how discrimination starts running under it's own momentum and conquers a whole nation....

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,11 May 05 - 10:40 PM
Date: 12 May 05 - 12:11 AM

Time for a bit of Cohen, perhaps...

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,ToryBoy
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:19 AM

Bliss



"unrest" "crime".....

ahem, I think the answer is more police and better policing.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:52 AM

Ahem, i think the answer is to remove the need for crime. Prevention being better than cure, and all that...

You should study the political system and crime statistics in Sweden, for example. More egalitarian society....and, surprise surprise, less crime.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 12 May 05 - 02:46 AM

if you look at the majority of street crime in any country, you'll see a pattern emerging, most street crime is done by teenage/early 20's. most criminals are male, most criminals come from broken homes. Most of these criminals have never had a father.
When i was a kid, i lived on a housing estate, we were'nt wealthy. but everyone in the street was in the same boat, Mum looked after us during the day, Dad went to work, when he got home Mum would go out cleaning. We didnt have a car, so on shopping days we all had to go, because we had to carry bags. the rules werent strict, but there was rules. This was the way everyone lived.
If you now look at the way people live these days it's very different. These kids arent bad kids, theyre crying for attention. but thats not to say we should be soft on them. society cant be all carrot or all stick, it has to be a mixture of both, send these kids to young offenders institutions, 6 weeks punishment breaking rocks, working chain gangs etc, then onto rehabilitation, show them what they can achieve, help them get qualifications, assist them to get jobs, make them believe their own worth. it will be a lot cheaper in the long run. the system has to take the role of the father when the father fails to do his job. and you dont have to be rich to love your children, you just have to be together.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 12 May 05 - 02:57 AM

Oh yes, we all need a good strong male influence in early childhood, and regular beatings, of course. All these single mothers are just absolutely useless, eh? The youth of today...i just don't know what the worlds' coming to...

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:17 AM

Hi B,I,,,,,,When did i say that kids needed to be beaten, when did i say single mothers were useless, when did i say the youth of today were any worse than yesterday's, it might surprise you to know that most fathers are kind caring and supportive, some are useless, i would never take a swipe at single mothers, it must be a hell of a life without the support of a partner.... it seems you are unable to digest anything other than your own view of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:07 AM

Socialism = Getting someone else to pay for you.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 12 May 05 - 04:09 AM

Chill out, i'm only messin:) Sorry if i caused any offence:)

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:07 AM

Thats O.K, no offence caused, i'm just really gettin into this mudcat thing. Great to hear all the opinions though.

Remember. Opinions are like belly buttons, everyones got one, none of them hold much water.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 12 May 05 - 05:48 AM

Lol! Bellybuttons indeed :)

As a matter of fact i do think a lot of kids aren't getting enough....well, i hate the word discipline, but you know what i mean! People need to be taught to take responsibility for their actions, is all...having said that, i think if it were more of a level playing field to begin with, crime (especially property related crime, like theft) would be less attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:31 AM

Opinions like bellybuttons...........Like it Stevie D, and I think that belongs on the Mudcat quotes thread.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,Tory Boy
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:19 AM

labouring party are dangerous because they harbour in their midst revolutionaries who seek nothing less than the overthrow of all the political systems in the country.
To achieve this they must cause unrest, just some examples:-
- inside trades unions by strikes and disruption.
- by rioting in anti-globalisation demo's.
- protesting against justified wars.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 May 05 - 04:56 AM

My early days were very much like yours, Stevie. I agree wholeheartedly with the premise that we need that combination of punishment/encouragement. What I find it doesn't address is the yobs who DO have a male presense and that the role model created by that male presense is exactly the boorish behavior that the offspring inherits:-(

You see it all the time, unfortunately. We even had a neighbor who threatened his sons teachers with violence because they punished the son! What kind of adult is that kid going to grow up into when he sees his Dad using violence as an answer for everything? In my day, and I suspect yours, If I got home from school and said the teachers had punished me for wrongdoing I would get it in the ear from my Dad as well!

Eeeeeh - Them were the days;-) To bring a little folkiness into it I love the song with the chorus -

When I were a lad, things they were bad
But they weren't half as bad as whn my Dad were a lad
And when my Dad were a lad, things weren't half as bad#
As when my Dad's dad was a lad...

Perhaps in forty years time the yob in the baseball cap who just put a litter bin through the bus shelter window will look back on how well behaved he was:-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:06 PM

Wonderfully comic stuff again from Tory Boy.

Hopefully, his particular brand of narrow-minded bigotry will continue to prevail amongst his 18th Century Tory think-tanksters and thus give this Government the chance to re-assemble a decent society after the pitifully devisive administrations that were the trademark of the ghosts of Tory past.

The dreary mantra of "Reduce Income Tax" worked well for them and their kind of course - manifesting itself in a reverse Robin Hood strategy of robbing the poor and giving to the rich. Worked well for a while - until middle England got wise to the damage it was doing.

Keep up the good work TB - your brainless brand of politics will help to keep the Tory party in it's harmless minority for at least another 10 years or so, which gives the "dangerous labouring party" the 18 years it deserves to balance up the 18 years of shameless gunk that was supposed to pass as Government policy.

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:30 PM

"labouring party are dangerous because they harbour in their midst revolutionaries who seek nothing less than the overthrow of all the political systems in the country."

No, they don't. If they did, i would have voted for them...:)

Subject: RE: BS: MARGINALS: We're winning (UK)
From: GUEST,doggerel dave
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:05 PM

Blissfully Ignorant - so well-named
Though I love your bleeeding heart
Tell me were you named and shamed
Or do you look the part?