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BS: GOD and the SPIDER...
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Subject: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: tarheel Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:30 AM GOD AND THE SPIDER During World War II, a US Marine was separated from his unit on a Pacific island. The fighting had been intense, and in the smoke and the crossfire, he had lost touch with his comrades. Alone in the jungle, he could hear enemy soldiers coming in his direction. Scrambling for cover, he found his way up a high ridge to several small caves in the rock. Quickly he crawled inside one of the caves. Although safe for the moment, he realized that once the enemy soldiers looking for him swept up the ridge, they would quickly search all the caves and he would be killed. As he waited, he prayed, "Lord, if it be your will, please protect me. Whatever your will though, I love you and trust you. Amen." After praying, he lay quietly listening to the enemy begin to draw close. He thought, "Well, I guess the Lord isn't going to help me out of this one." Then he saw a spider begin to build a web over the front of his cave. As he watched, listening to the enemy searching for him all the while, the spider layered strand after strand of web across the opening of the cave. "Hah, he thought. "What I need is a brick wall and what the Lord has sent me is a spider web. God does have a sense of humor." As the enemy drew closer he watched from the darkness of his hideout and could see them searching one cave after another. As they came to his, he got ready to make his last stand. To his amazement, however, after glancing in the direction of his cave, they moved on. Suddenly, he realized that with the spider web over the entrance, his cave looked as if no one had entered for quite a while. "Lord, forgive me," prayed the young man. "I had forgotten that in you a spider's web is stronger than a brick wall." We all face times of great trouble. When we do, it is so easy to forget the victories that God would work in our lives, sometimes in the most surprising ways. As the great leader, Nehemiah, reminded the people of Israel when they faced the task of rebuilding Jerusalem, "In God we will have success!" [Nehemiah 2:20] Remember: Whatever is happening in your life, with God, a mere spider's web can become a brick wall of protection. Believe He is with you always. Just speak His name through Jesus His son, and you will see His great power and love for you. tar... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM Great parable, Tar. Dunno about the God part, or the Jesus part, but I liked the part about the spider. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:42 AM Yes, such things have happened. I've even seen kind of similar things happen on the odd occasion. Good story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,G Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:47 AM I liked that, Tar. And I believe the God part is true. - I think after 50 years I am reverting back to being a Diest. Todays "Evangelicals" are making me wonder what is what. Of course, you didn't mean for this to take this route. Thanks again, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM tsk more tsk if you MUST preach where preaching is not appropriate, at least attribute these things....it seems to have been a "Devotional -Dr Wende, 1st Methodist Church, Houston TX" see here |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: number 6 Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM I liked that .. thanks Tar. sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM That Marine must have told his story to someone. So what was his name? Exactly where and when did this happen? Basically, why on earth should anyone believe such a story? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:44 AM "That marine" may well not have existed. Sounds like a fine and moral story like one might read in the Bible. But it's a good parable, and doesn't HAVE to be factually based to have truth to it. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:06 PM yes everybody has an insect threshold. one spider scampering across the carpet....well it shows you have a rich organic connection with the life force in your house. three earwigs....thats a conspiracy against the status quo, look out that spray under the sink. ants in the bathroom......the house is on a invasion footing a cockroach ...phone rentakill and all the time they might be sent by God. You think he'd send some easily recognisable symbol of his bounty...someone who finds who finds you sexually attractive for example. I wish he'd knock off this 'moving in mysterious ways' business - it's not really working out. all the best al |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Leadfingers Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:15 PM We have a thing in the clubs locally about encouraging people to give the source of the songs they sing ! It is only common politeness , after all ! Same goes for inspirational stuff like this , so I have to agree with Bil D . And if yoyu want to live and thrive , let the spider run alive - and I learnt THAT from my old Mum !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:16 PM There is no reason why anyone has to believe it, is there? It's a parable. Anyway, if you had the kind of understanding of God that is presented in the religions of the East: that "God" is the entire continuum and fabric of Life itself...all consciousness, purpose, and energy...manifesting as apparently separate phenomena in this World...then you would have little or no trouble believing it. I think, Guy Who Thinks, it is your presumption that "God" must be necessarily separate from you (if God exists at all)...a distinct and separate being...that is hanging you up. God is not separate from anyone or anything whatsoever. You're like an atom in the body of God. You're like a single thought in the mind of God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:29 PM If you believe in an omnipotent diety you must believe it has the power to actually BE a spider. Imagine the shit you'll be in when you snuff it and stand before your god answering for your sins. What? You thought they'd ask if you were good to your fellow man? Nah, it's all about how well you treat spiders. jackanory, jackanory, jackanory ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,God Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM Well, of course I have the power to be a spider. I AM everything, remember? But consider this: Nothing is real except what is eternal. What is unreal passes away. Physical bodies, including spiders' bodies, obviously pass away. They are not real. Yes, you can touch them, you can feel them, you can kill them, but they are not real. Neither is your body, although it feels real. You are in a dream. In dreams, everything seems to be very real, but then you wake up and you discover it wasn't after all. This physical life you think you are living is like unto a dream...a long dream...and in it you have many shorter dreams when you are sleeping at night or when you use your imagination. Those dreams occur in the Mental and Astral realms, non-physical realms, so the "rules", as it were, are more flexible for those dreams. The physical realm (an unreal one) is governed by much more stringent limiations, which is why you think it's real. It's very convincing. Killing the spider does not really kill anything, but you can think it does if you want to. You are not your body, and neither is the spider its body. You are a thought-form, and so is the spider. Thought-forms cannot die. They do not pass away, but they bring forth many transitory outer manifestations, like your body. You will NOT stand before me answering for your sins! I do not punish nor take retribution. Why would I? Only a limited and fearful being would bother to punish, to take vengeance, or to believe in sin in the first place. Such a being cannot be described as "God"...it is a part of God which has completely forgotten its true nature. You people are the ones who are punishing yourselves and each other. Don't blame me for it. I hold no grudge against anyone. Your "sins" exist only in your own fearful minds. The crazy religions that you have invented to support your fears have little to do with me, and are generally keeping you in conscious separation from me, in fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Big Al Whittle Date: 28 Jul 05 - 12:58 PM and earwigs...... show a bit of reverence. when a man's alone in the presence of just his earwig. there's no place to hide. no room for spohistry, and being mealy mouthed about the final truth. for when the last earwig is counted, who knows what will be revealed. No use saying to the Almighty, sorry mate I thought you had a sense of humour...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:02 PM God has the best sense of humour of all, in my opinion, because in it there is no hint of malice whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Wesley S Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:07 PM I have to agree with a lot of God's points { by the way God - could you PM me ? there are a few things I want to ask you }. They say we were created in God's image but I can't help but think that a lot of us have recreated God in our image instead. I can't believe that a loving God would create a Hell to punish anyone. YMMV. And by the way - this thread had God in the title. If people are upset by the subject matter then they have come here of their own free will to do so. Since we seem to have enough room at the Mudcat for 5,362 William Shatner threads and room for other people to gripe about tall people , ect , ect - I can't see that this clearly marked thread is harming anyone. And folks - it's the internet. You can never assume that a poster has written what they've posted. That would be the same as assuming that the next person who performs a Child ballad is the author if they neglect to say out loud " HEY - this is a Child ballad". Let's chill. The weather is too darn hot for anything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:13 PM Wesley ... post on Mudcat and it's fair game. Who could resist a thread with creepy-crawlies in the title? ;o) It's hot here too (28C yesterday) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,G Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:32 PM My thought - If I were an Atheist (I am not) and saw the first word of the subject, I would not enter the thread as I know it is a nonentity. I sometimes wonder why different degrees of denial are exhibited. Besides, thinking that posts on the Internet reqire sources probably ceased to exist during its' 3rd week of existance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:53 PM Hey God, Your horns are showing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:55 PM Hardly, John. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM Guest, G wrote: My thought - If I were an Atheist (I am not) and saw the first word of the subject, I would not enter the thread as I know it is a nonentity. I sometimes wonder why different degrees of denial are exhibited. Besides, thinking that posts on the Internet reqire sources probably ceased to exist during its' 3rd week of existance. . First, thanks for capitalizing atheist, it's not required but it's a nice gesture ;o) Why would the word GOD (sic) preclude anyone from checking out the thread? Would you expect them to not read a thread with 'tooth fairy' in the title? Pontification on a public forum is insulting to some (in this case atheists) so it's a bit much to expect a bedtime story like this to go unscathed. I have for that very reason donned asbestos undies ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: MMario Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM athiests don't believe in God. For Athiests - non-belief is thier god. *grin* Generalities of course are terrible, but I have met athiests who were more rabidly religious in their denial of god then any missionary I've met. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Wesley S Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:13 PM "Pontification on a public forum is insulting to some (in this case atheists)" My goodness - if Atheists age going to get insulted eveytime they run into people who disagrees with their views they are going to be miserable. The same can be said for people of faith. I know I've never tried to insult an Athiest by converting him - so why can't this be a case of "different strokes for different folks" ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Georgiansilver Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:24 PM Great story Tarheel...enjoyed it and its sentiments. A lot of great things happen to us through true Faith in God and how many of you who make adverse comments and deny God....have actually called out to Him in times of anguish...when you have been at rock bottom? Also how many would be honest enough to admit to having done so? Each to his own belief I suppose....Best wishes, Mike. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM MMario: athiests don't believe in God. Close, but not quite right. Atheists believe there is no god. Wesley S: if Atheists age going to get insulted eveytime they run into people who disagrees with their views they are going to be miserable. Not true. And expect a reaction when someone gets a pie in the face like this: Remember: Whatever is happening in your life, with God, a mere spider's web can become a brick wall of protection. Believe He is with you always. Just speak His name through Jesus His son, and you will see His great power and love for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:33 PM how many of you who make adverse comments and deny God....have actually called out to Him in times of anguish...when you have been at rock bottom? People will do anything at times like that. It's a survival instinct. How many have had their plea answered? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: MMario Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:33 PM BTW - Wesley - If I remember church history correctly "Hell" is a concept invented by the early Christian church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Wesley S Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:49 PM I agree MMario. It was a tool to keep people in line. Fear works that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Ebbie Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:57 PM Remember: Whatever is happening in your life, with God, a mere spider's web can become a brick wall of protection. Believe He is with you always. Just speak His name through Jesus His son, and you will see His great power and love for you. I too am not an atheist but that paragraph above reminds me powerfully of the warriors who died like flies when they were assured and convinced by their leaders that they were, one and all, bulletproof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Ebbie Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:58 PM By the way, if any capitalization at all is called for, it should be "a-Theist", I believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:04 PM Quite correct, MMario. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: MMario Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:10 PM BPL - the answer is not always obvious, nor what people expect. My brother has been agnostic most of his adult life - but when his stepson was diagnosed with cancer He and his wife joined a charasmatic Catholic church at the son's request. The priest was very big on faith healing. And though John died at the age of 13 - many people observed at his funeral that he, and many of his classmates - had indeed recieved healing. But it was a healing of the mind and spirit, not the body. Now *I* do not submit that a god with a capital "G" gave him this healing. I know my sister in law *does* feel that - and that she has received the same from God. My brother however *did* expect a physical healing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM Cripes, ya'll! It's a neat story, Tarheel, thanks. I suppose it would've been better to have posted "A Higher Being and the Spider." Having said that, though, I, personally, would be more comfortable if people didn't automatically assume we are all Christian. Besides that didn't you all know gawd is a Womon!?*bg* |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Highlandman Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:15 PM It was a tool to keep people in line. Fear works that way. Now, of course, being superior morally and intellectually, we use ridicule instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:18 PM Anyone who sincerely calls upon God for help gets it...although not necessarily in the form he expects. People who don't believe there IS a God are clearly not going to call on God anyway, so for them it's a moot point, isn't it? Nevertheless, like everyone else, they do get what they need, although not necessarily what they want. And I am not talking about material considerations here. Materiality is the least important aspect of life....but the ONLY important point to a sworn materialist, because he thinks he IS the body, and nothing more than that. That being the case, he has built his house upon sand, because the body dies in a short span of years and vanishes...aside from leaving some bones and teeth behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM "...athiests don't believe in God. Close, but not quite right. Atheists believe there is no god." funny, though I have 'not believed that there is a god' for the last 40+ years. I have never liked adopting the 'atheist' label, though I'm sure I'd be lumped in that group by most. I have just not seen any evidence of any 'supreme creative force' that can be defined or requires being recognized. Personally, I see no reason to even HAVE any 'ultimate explanation for the Universe...it just **IS**. Notions like Little Hawk's may...or may NOT.. be true...but they are so all encompassing as to be useful mostly as metaphorical poetry. At least THOSE notions do not usually cause people to start wars to defend them. tarheel's though, I'm afraid, is one of the forms which often demands obedience to its particular format and denies others, threatening eternal torment for unbelievers. THIS form of belief is what I prefer not to see 'pushed' in threads at Mudcat. I have no quarrel with those who mention their religious beliefs, or even who refer to them in certain contexts...but starting a thread merely to proselytize, even for a pretty parable, is not good form. I wish I knew how to get that simple thought across to certain folk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,G Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:33 PM Basically what katlauging says. I don't assume and 'she' might be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM Yeah, why IS it that the moment the word "God" comes up, so many people assume that the one saying it MUST be Christian? People believed in God long, long before Christianity was ever heard of. Anyway, Jesus was not a Christian, in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:58 PM Jesus, by definition, could not have been a Christian...followers of Jesus were Christians. (Yes, I'm stipulating that there certainly could have been a historical figure that all the furor is based on.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM Exactly. Now what if the followers got it...just a wee bit wrong? Supposing that I were to meet some hideous public end, martyred by a mob of local atheists, Christians, and Neo-Cons, due to my promotion of William Shatner, my belief in reincarnation, and my opinions regarding space aliens? Suppose further that some of my more enthusiastic backers decided to make me the centrepoint of a new faith! Suppose that they then perpetrated massive misunderstandings upon the World in my name for the next 2,000 years and basically took over much of the World for awhile and burned a lot of other people at the stake. This would be, for me, quite unsettling. I might object to them calling themselves LittleHawkists or whatever name they chose... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:10 PM durn thing is....with the WWW being what it is, and with all you've posted on it, your collected writings may even now be being collected and collated! And with a name like "Little Hawk", many, many metaphors and images are open to interpretation! I shudder at the possibilities! |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Ebbie Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM If your unhappy end didn't occur until after the Shat had passed on, you would probably survive as the High Priest of His Shatnership. I can hardly wait. We need a new god. *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM Yes, that is a distinct possibility. I would be sort of like John the Baptist, while Shatner would be the Big Kahuna. Wow. This could be big. Really big. "To Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before" could become the credo of an entire new step in human development. I would also hope that the collected works of William McGonagall could be added into the holy books of the new faith, as a sort of new Apocrypha... People could study those, and Shatner's writings and recordings, and upon that firm foundation, build a completely fresh world-view that would take us easily into the next millennium.. (did I spell that right?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: MMario Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:36 PM if you were equivilant to John the Baptist then you would forshadow the arrival of Shatnerd - you are more the equivilant of either Peter or Paul. did you have any great mystical experiences while on the road somewhere? Have you ever denied Shatner in the wee hours of the morning? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:51 PM Ah-Hah! You are so right. I am a Shatnerite disciple, that's what I am. I hate to admit it...but I once did deny Shatner in the middle of the night. I was in the company of a very attractivde and totally distracting woman, and I completely forgot about William Shatner for about 3 hours! I know it's shocking, but it's true. I have done much penance to make up for that grave oversight. I have worn hair shirts and flagellated myself severely. I have denied myself the pleasures of female companionship for extended periods. I have suffered...Yea! how I have suffered for that momentary lapse in judgement. I also had a mystical experience on a road, yes. It was a road near Sudbury. It was a very hot day, and I think I was a bit dehydrated. At any rate, I briefly slipped into another world, quite apart from this one, where I was vouchsafed some information that was so astounding that I had best not post it here... Upon returning to normality, I discovered that I was on the wrong side of the road, drifting toward a line of trees! I pulled off to the side, poured water over my head, and had a drink. One should avoid mystical experiences while driving. It's not safe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM Can someone give me the post here that assumes everyone is Christian, cuz I can't seem to find it..... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:50 PM 'supreme creative force' that requires being recognized. Personally, I see no reason to even HAVE any 'ultimate explanation for the Universe...it just **IS**. Those are some of the most esoteric words I've ever read in your postings, Bill! I LIKE that not requiring recognition! AND the just IS! The rest of what you said is pretty agreeable, too, though, of course, I don't think of them as just "notions." Far from causing wars, their believers have often been victims of such. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:54 PM Reality just **IS** too. Many of the great mystics will tell you that. What I think you would enjoy, Bill, is reading about Taoism. I can recommend two great books by Benjamin Hoff: The Tao of Pooh The Teh of Piglet They're fun to read, and explain Taoism beautifully. And they're paperbacks. Check it out if you can. I think you would be a natural for Taoism, judging by your comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:40 PM ... and it seems really, I dunno... weird/ironic/funny that on the one hand apparently old Tar is assumed to be assuming it's all Christians 'round here, while in the same thread he's also being accused of proselytizing, which as far as I understand that word, would have to mean that he had assumed people are NOT Christians (and ought to be, need to be). Me, I found it a silly story with a big fat invisible THEREFORE just before the last part... which would make it proselytizing, in my book, and I'm agin it. I'm especially agin it when someone starts up a thread just to do it, as opposed to mentioning one's faith in an on-topic way in response to someone else's post-- as many Mudcatters do, you know (happy Solstice!). I can't recall if Tar is one of the proselytizers hereabouts I've PMed in the past asking them to knock it off, but I do that from time to time because as a practicing and thinking Christian, I find time after time that such approaches really close people's minds more than anything else. Especially here. On a personal level, I don't like it when people choose such an asinine starting point to try to reach anyone, and I don't think it's a good idea at Mudcat in particular. It's the kind of sappy crap I would expect to find at TruthorFiction.com. But it's also possible that all Tar really assumed is that people at Mudcat can relate to spiders. Have a nice day, and enjoy your various (old) (same old) jihads! ;~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM I took it simply as a story about the power of prayer. That doesn't mean it's exclusively Christian. The Japanese prayed too, and most of them were Buddhists of one type or another. Some were Shintoists, which is a bit different. And a few were Christians as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:23 PM Well, here's a question for ya, LH. Was it the soldier or the spider who was praying, do ye reckon? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: beardedbruce Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:25 PM LH, "I would also hope that the collected works of William McGonagall could be added into the holy books of the new faith, as a sort of new Apocrypha..." If I thought this was a serious statement, I would say that you are in active pursuit of martyrdom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:28 PM 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:49 PM "...The rest of what you said is pretty agreeable, too, though," well, thankee, kat...but you know me- I can say something for everyone to DIS-agree with..*grin*...You & I sorta agree about the 'god' bit, but you do dip into some other stuff that makes my eyebrows twitch. I guess it's nice that good people can manage to survive on having 87.4021% agreement, hmmm? (and, Susan.. it's hard to characterize tarheel's posts precisely...whether they are preaching, 'witnessing', proselytizing, poking, or "acknowledging" like Judge Roy Moore kept saying, he is directly claiming one particular religion is 'right' and implying that others are not. If he had just posted the parable/story, without the last few lines of commentary, it would have been a very different thing. When he posted the links to his radio program of religious music, it was fine....this is different) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:56 PM As the kind Rabbi Kirshner once said (and I paraphrase)... Any one who believes in a particular religion assumes it to be more "right" than other religions. That need not imply anything about our ability to both get along and explore our differences. Seems to me that it is only the weak of faith (yes, even their faith in nothing) who get squeemish at the discussion of religion. "the agnostic is the guy who is unsure if there is a God, but is damn sure you don't know either" |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:11 PM weak of faith in nothing?...ooohhh, hmmm.. I'm not sure whether I'd be insulted or complimented by that.... and, yep...that is the point about agnosticism. They do believe that no one knows....which is quite different from knowing that some believe. I'm glad to discuss religion...not squeamish at all. I just like a fair set of ground rules... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:26 PM The term "Hell" can be symbolic of a number of things. It may indicate a state of mind, and it may indicate an astral realm determined BY a state of mind. The thing it least likely indicates is a place down under the ground somewhere on this planet... ;-) There are probably a great many hells, each suiting the state of mind they are dependent upon. What is hell to one might seem quite desirable to another. Casinos, for example, strike me as hellish. So do certain bars. Other people love being there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:29 PM In a world where more people believe in something, it often takes great courage (or great idiocy) to believe in nothing (or something different) in the face of such an outnumbering -- especially when one cannot take solace in the probability that everyone else has missed what one seems to believe is obvious. So we tend to take comfort in... 1. Convincing everyone to believe as we do in order to even the numbers. (maybe if more people believe as I do I will finally have the ability to convince myself that what I believe is correct *BG*). 2. Shooting holes in every belief system -- sometimes (often?) collectively just to save time *BG*. 3. The inability of the adherents of a belief system to fulfill their belief system. I really only have a few pet peaves when religion is discussed, and they mostly revolve around the practice of portraying other's beliefs for them (in order to "shoot them down"). When folks state the "whys" and "whats" of their own beliefs, I am not only not threatened, I enjoy it. I do think that anyone willing to share the "whys & whats" of their beliefs are fair game for questions. That underline function is just the ginchiest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM I guess it's nice that good people can manage to survive on having 87.4021% agreement, hmmm? YES!!**bg** |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM It's impossible to believe in nothing, John Hardly, unless you are completely unconscious...or totally insane to the point that you can't even relate to anything coherently, including your own existence. Everyone believes in various things, not all of which are empirically provable. You believe in plenty of stuff. You just don't (I assume) believe in things you choose to regard as "religious". But...I have probably misinterpreted your remarks in some way. ;-) So, enlighten me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: frogprince Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:46 PM For me, Hell would probably be eternity at a society "cocktail party"; never saw anything so pointless, pretentious, and boring in my life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:47 PM Oh, that would be hell, all right. Hell would also be having to watch daytime TV..... FOREVER!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Kaleea Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM I like the story. I did not hold a concept in my mind of the "religion" of the Marine as I read the story. It could have been a story from a code talker serviceman. Or a Japanese-American serviceman. Or "__insertothertermhere____." I have heard a remarkably similar story (albeit not necessarily taking place on an island in the south pacific) from an Indigenous American Tribal storyteller, a Japanese American storyteller, a Kenyan American storyteller and a German American storyteller--if you will, please, forgive the use of "labels" used here only for the sake of understanding by some who otherwise might not get it. Great Spirit, aka Grandfather, et all, by any other name, is still Great Spirit--at least in my humble belief system. Evidently I missed where the term, "Jesus" was in the story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:55 PM Well, anyway, Jesus is a pretty universal teacher. He gets respect just about everywhere (except among certain skeptics or atheists). The Muslims revere him as a true prophet of God. The Hindus do the same. So do the other Eastern faiths, and so do the Bahais. North American Indians seem to generally have a high opinion of Jesus. So where would Christians get the idea that Jesus belongs exclusively to them??? What those other groups have had problems with at various times is not Jesus himself, but the organized religions called collectively "Christianity" which were founded in his name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:00 PM There's always the possibility that the Marine himself acted as the spiritual mediation that caused the spider to get down to work and web the door. Why would he be any less capable of emanating those "vibes of causation" than God? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do". John, 14:12. Seems the Marine in this story certainly qualified... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:27 PM Well, John Hardly, you sure pointed out a major concern up there: " portraying other's beliefs for them (in order to "shoot them down")." Two problems are involved. 1) People who don't really understand their own beliefs and the basis on which they believe what they do, so they end up with awkward explanations of their own system...and 2) People who, as you say, try to portray other's beliefs FOR them....and may be no better at it than those they're criticising. In my years at Mudcat sticking my nose into these types of discussions...on religion as well as other 'hot' topics, I have always tried to avoid telling someone "you are wrong...it can't be that way or can't exist". But I do know a little bit about how logic and arguments work, and I can often note when an attempted claim or explanation is not easily defendable, given the premises of the assertor. Not a wholesale "you are wrong", but "you have made errors in your defense" or similar problems. It is a sort of mantra in these matters that the burden of proof is on the assertor. If you just say "this is what I believe", all I can really do is shrug and say "I don't". But if you say "I KNOW this is how things work and/or why", you should be prepared to defend it. (I had two Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door and make assertions about how I should conduct my life, based on certain Bible verses. I said "I don't really accept the authority of the Bible for these reasons....A,B,C"...so they went away and came back with a more learned Elder who tried to reply to my objections by reading me different Bible verses! He just didn't get it....he could not comprehend why anyone would/could/dared look beyond the Bible for ultimate answers!) At this point, there is simply nothing to say...and if they had left me alone, I would NOT have said anything. I disagree with them, but I do not go over to their church a few blocks away, knock on the door, and try to sell them Atheism or Agnosticism. (lordy, what an image!) I cannot prove they are wrong in their beliefs....but I am not trying to. THEY are out making claims and assertions about eternity, souls...etc....yet they get a bit grumpy when I offer my picky analysis of their assertions. ah, well....it is good mental exercise when I get a couple of new ones.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:35 AM Well, I assumed that the Marine was Christian because I first heard this story as Christian propaganda, and I've read previous posts by tarheel. And of course, as has been pointed out, that has little to do with its merit a a parable. But when you pray, think of Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create the darkness I make peace and create evil I the Lord do all these things. Think of Whom you're praying to, and hope He's in a good mood. "I make peace _and create evil._" This is not, by the way, meant to be facetious at all. I understand there is nothing in the Book to indicate that Satan is the source of evil, but a number of references to God as the source of evil as well as good. Do you follow the Book or your own comforting rationalizations? clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Metchosin Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:49 AM I found my friend David's speculation interesting when we were discussing such things in junior high once. He said, "Maybe we are some student's science class project....and maybe they got a "D". We'd been reading a lot of science fiction at the time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,KT Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:32 AM Funny, I didn't automatically assume proselytising, preaching or assumtion of any sort was tarheel's intention. I figured it was a story he found inspiring and chose to share it as something others may find some good in. You know, take what you need and leave the rest kind of thing. For my part, my attention was drawn to the spider web, and inspired me to look for the metaphorical spider webs in my own life. Unexpected assists so to speak. Plenty there for me to consider. KT |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:46 AM I seem to have heard this story set in much earlier times, centuries before either World War. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:33 AM Yeah, Bill D, you said it better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Allan C. Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:15 AM A friend of mine defined hell as being locked in a room furnished only with a record player and a single album of Wayne Newton's greatest hits. I am unsure as to how to avoid this or any other idea of hell, believing this to be as plausible as any. However, if my friend was even close to being right, and if there is a hell at all, it is something I would want very much to avoid. However I think sin exists only if we believe it does. It logically follows that if hell is the price of sin, and if we believe in neither, then we need not pay them any attention whatsoever. Personally, I enjoy reading silly parables like the one at the start of this thread. What I object to is the editorial comment at its end. It assumes that the reader is too ignorant to draw anything from the story other than the superficial. That, I find offensive! Give me a Br'er Rabbit story anytime. At least in those one was usually allowed to draw one's own conclusions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:23 AM A very old man dies and wakes up in the afterlife. While he's walking around looking for St. Peter, he notices that the place is filled with very old men like himself. And each one is in bed with a beautiful young woman. He breathes a sigh of relief and stops at one of the beds to talk to the occupants. He says, "Boy oh boy, when I woke up I was afraid I hadn't made it to Heaven! But this place looks like a pretty good deal, if you know what I mean." The old man in the bed says, "Heaven? This ain't Heaven. This is the Other Place." "The Other Place? I don't understand. You're in bed with a gorgeous girl" "That's right. I'm HER punishment!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:30 AM "However I think sin exists only if we believe it does." Do you mean, "relative to a judging God"? ....or are you meaning to imply that when actions that most would consider "evil" are done, it's merely a matter of the mind -- that if we would just have a better attitude when being beaten, robbed, raped, lied to, cheated, killed, etc, we wouldn't have to accept those actions as a bad thing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Pied Piper Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM Subtract the sub reader's digest, banal and formulaic religious message and the parable of keeping a flexible mental attitude is OK for those who need such things. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM I think there is an inherent sense of "good" which is native to the human spirit. And that other systems of moral control, judgement, threats of bad afterlives and such are all pretty shabby imitations overlaid on top of it. I also think that some people can have this natural sense beaten into dark submission, and one way or another can be left senseless and even evil; but the small voice never wholly goes away. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Allan C. Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:52 AM JH, I believe that sin is a religous expansion of the social concepts of right and wrong. Somehow it was not deemed enough to simply have societal norms that evolved to become rules of conduct. Someone decided that such rules had to be reinforced by naming them as the laws of a deity and by imposing a hypothetical punishment, (called "hell" by some,) by said deity. I really think this was overkill. Our various societies have developed plenty of ways of enforcing reasonable behavior (except that of politicians!) thus precluding the need for the concept of sin. I sincerely doubt that a fear of sinning has any more effect on criminal behavior, such as you list, than any laws (rules of society) might have. Naturally, there is no documentation to substantiate my doubt or even contradictions to it. It is merely the way I see it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: ranger1 Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:09 AM Foolestroupe is right. I heard it told about Robert the Bruce when I was in elementary school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM The BRuce story was a different spider, who did a different trick, with a different moral, I think. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Allan C. Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:18 AM Amos is correct. See the story here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:01 AM The Eensie-Weensie Spider (Tom Smith, Bob Blue, Trad.) The eensie-weensie spider went up the water spout Down came the rain, and washed the spider out. Out came the sun and dried up all the rain And the eensie-weensie spider climbed again She wouldn't let the elements distract her from her goal The purpose of her struggle was imbedded in her soul; Now see the sun shine down on beasts, on women and on men And see that eenie-weensie spider rise again! cho: Rise again! Rise again! She will not let misfortune keep her From doing what she can. So whether your legs number two, or four or eight or ten Be like that eensie-weensie spider, Rise again! This eensie-weensie metaphor's a lesson to us all We cannot be defeated if we rise each time we fall And if you think this story's one you learned too long ago Then think about some other ones you know: You know the myth of Sisyphus, and you know Jack and Jill It's such a potent image, going up and down a hill. So every time you fall,or lose a lover or a friend Be like that eensie-weensie spider, Rise again! Perhaps you think this allegory goes a bit too far Climbing up a pipe is not like reaching for a star But whether it's a water spout or mountain that you climb You've come this far. Indulge me one more time, It could be said that each of us climbs up a water spout The downward pull of gravity's not what it's all about The upward pull of hope is what will save us in the end Be like that eensie-weensie spider Rise again! Final chorus: Rise again! Rise again! Never let misfortune keep you From doing what you can, And whether your legs number two Or four or eight or ten Be like that eensie-weensie spider, Rise again! copyright Tom Smith, Bob Blue tune, of course, is Mary Ellen Carter RG oct96 |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: *daylia* Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:58 AM BTW - Wesley - If I remember church history correctly "Hell" is a concept invented by the early Christian church. Almost, but not quite. Hel is the Viking (Norse) goddess of the underworld. She predates the Christianized "Hell" by at least a millenia or two. Careful now ... cross 'er just once and She'll be comin' to getcha!! ;~) (Actually, She looks more like this) |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Jul 05 - 12:10 PM Wayne Newton's Greatest Hits? That's hell all right. No contest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Wesley S Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:11 PM Daylia - I remember her. I dated her back in 1980 but at the time she was using the name Michelle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:36 PM I thought that's what you prolly meant, Allan C. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: GUEST,Sgt. Rockcock Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:03 PM After the sneaky dirty bushwacking Japs had passed his position, the Marine burst forth from his strategic place-of-concealment, incidentally squashing the spider whose purpose had been served. With a steely grin and a squint of deadly intent, he assumed a battle stance born of top-notch training and natural military superiority, surveying the scene before him as his practiced thumb flicked off the safety on his machine-gun. "Eat hot lead, ya bonzai bastards!" he growled through teeth grinding down hard on his long-burnt out stump of a stogie, protruding out from between his three-days-unshaven thin-but-muscular manly lips. The enemy squad was mowed down in short order before they knew what hit them from behind. The marine did not even have to reach for his spare clip. As he turned away to rejoin his squad, he silently gave thanks to God for the proof that the Almighty was on the side of America against the heathen Chin-ee (or Japan-ee... or whatever...). |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:28 PM OK, hahaha.... but why insult gardeners? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:33 PM I think he meant Banzai, not bonsai. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: JennyO Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:23 AM Aw I dunno - it does say "The enemy squad was mowed down in short order...." maybe they were all gardeners. |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Le Scaramouche Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM 88 posts and not one of you realised this is one of the stories told of King David and Muhammad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 30 Jul 05 - 12:19 PM David and Muhammed were in the Marines? gosh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 30 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM From Beliefnet: Reprinted with permission from "How the Children Became Stars" by Aaron Zerah, published by Sorin Books. When King David was still a boy watching over his father's sheep, he often came upon spiders' webs strung across tree branches and shining in the sun. David thought the spiders were wonderful to weave such webs, but he could see no use for them. David decided to ask God about it. "Why, O Creator of the world, did you make spiders? You can't even wear their webs as clothing!" God answered David, "A day will come when you will need the work of this creature. Then you will thank me." David grew up and became a courageous warrior. He defeated the giant Goliath and many enemies of the people of Israel. He married King Saul's daughter and the people adored him as the greatest man in the land. King Saul was jealous and afraid of David and sent his soldiers to kill him. David ran away to the wilderness. He hoped King Saul's fit of anger would pass and David would be safe to return. But King Saul's men kept chasing him. At last, the soldiers were very close. David ran into a cave to hide. He heard the footsteps of the men and knew that they would soon find him. David was so afraid, his bones shook and hurt. But then David saw a big spider at the front of the cave. Very quickly, it was spinning a web all the way across the opening. Just before the soldiers came up to the cave, the spider finished the web. As the men started to enter the cave, they ran into the web. "Look," they said, "This web is unbroken. If David were here, he'd have torn the web to pieces. He must be hiding somewhere else. Let's go!" So because of the spider, David's life was saved. David understood that God was wise and thanked God for creating all the creatures, including the spiders. So there ya go -- a different moral perhaps, but a much older version. Talk about not attributing your sources, wow! A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Bill D Date: 30 Jul 05 - 06:14 PM it's obvious...God, through divine inspiration, gives this metaphorical story to someone in every generation, so they may use it to show others how faith works. In 3417, it will be 'A member of the Intergalatic Star Fleet, trapped on Arcturus IV, hiding from the Romulans, when a 12 legged "SprfanQ" spider hides him with a web spun of Titanium Polymer and provides telepathic contact with the fleet besides'!! Ah, the wonder of it all! |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Cluin Date: 31 Jul 05 - 03:31 PM I bet that God has better things to do than distribute lame recycled parables to people with internet connections. Like, George Carlin said years ago, he's too busy throwing galactic gas balls around the Firmament or something. "What is it? Earth again? Damn! My one day of rest and they've all got to crowd into their churches and whine for things. Day off, my ass!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: katlaughing Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:25 PM Ya'll need to read Waiting for the galatic bus (Barion and Coyul are two brothers from a civilization vastly superiors to our own. Stranded on Earth, they decide to create the human race-without fully thinking the process through. Life was never easy, but now, a few million years later, their creations have posed them with their most serious problem yet--.) and its sequel, The snake-oil wars by Parke Godwin. BRILL and definitely good Mudcat material!! BillDee, I think you'd exp. get a kick outta them! kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: GOD and the SPIDER... From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:59 PM God appears, and God is light, To those poor souls who dwell in night; But does a human form display To those who dwell in realms of day. - W.Blake |
