BS: Football World Cup 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:28 AM

That is down to concussion...........

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:19 AM

How long ago it all seems......

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:44 AM

Well, both players have stated that the insult was not racist. So that's it.

Similarly with "Kapo" for a Jewish player doing the same. (McGrath)

McGrath, your extremely idiosyncratic definition of "racist" is even more twisted than I thought or you simply don't know what "Kapo" means.

"Kapo" was in the concentration camps one of the prisoners aiding the Nazi screws for priviledges. The word is said to be derived from the German spelling of 'comrade police'. The inmates in the camps were Jews, Slavs, Germans, Sinti, Roma, communists, Jehova's witnesses, oppositional army officers, socialist, homosexuals, common criminals...

Therefore the Kapo's as well were all that, namely Jews, Slavs, Germans,... BTW, common German criminals made the best Kapos due to a lack of compassion. To call a Jew a Kapo is an insult, but not a racist insult unless you want to strip that term of any meaning.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:22 AM

There does seem to be a double standard here. Players like Beckham (in the past) were publicly castigated by the whole of the nation's press for the reactions that caused them to be sent off in the World Cup.

The generally expressed view was that - whatever the provocation may have been - the foolish young Beckham should not have reacted in the way he did and it was right that he was sent off.

We now have one of the world's most experience players being sent off for the sort of violent reaction - which had he done in the street would have got him locked-up for assult - and it now somehow matters what the provocation was.......?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Nic Pizzo
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:02 PM

What really happened to Zidane was Selfishness and no glory and greed, he went down the drain he should go home to mamma and tell her the truth , truth is taunting is in every sport - of course its not right , but, then swearing by fans and slurs remarks are?? until some head butts comes around everyone is surprised, or you kill for it, then will you be charged- in Hockey they call it normal to fight, and people applaud here in Canada, until some one gets hurt.

He who has not sinned may toss the first stone- .

As Zidane stated , I'm offended you called my mother names,poor man, MR. Zidane, you snapped and Chirac forgave you as all of France did, in a country where racial problems are real and since France masacred 500, 000 Alegerians in there occupationa way back in the 50's - unfortunately and recently France has racial problems and wants to be very cultural country, contrarey italy has lowest racial probelm in the world.


Basically the italian palyed and worked like bulls and played well, France got away with diving, they were hurt and complained, why did France make it this far, simple, refs gave them penalty shots in 2 games from palyers cheap dives.

Also now , media and no offence , the media is controlled 50% by Englsih speaking world and French and no way would they say Portugal or Italy or anyone latin should win, they are second class citizen,therefore, media campaign is to smear italian soccer , how about instead showing that Zidane isa bully and real loser after all and greedy as a leader of a team or was he, he should have not done what he did its criminal, he should have walked away, thats what real hero would have been , and win on score board.

But, media will scorn and stereotype italians as usual as England is not there or France aswinners, what esle is new, england and france after all lost and they are bitter about it, therefore Matterazzi is there lucky fellow to smear and make a manace of it-Zidane should apoligize publicaly and also Matterrazi should do the same and put it to rest.

FYI-, Zidane is not muslim or Arbic, he is Roman decent BERBER parents from a mountain region...

So, let the lip readers know that also...and the enquirer news papers and Chirac and his people who are confused and lost.-

VIVA ITALIA AND A CLASSY TEAM- Italy has fashion, food , cars , pride but also, alwasy amdmit ther sins.

ITS ALL ABOUT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A WANNA BEE.

Ciao!

Nick from Ottawa Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:44 PM

"the police wouldn't have known it" - in which case they were quite remarkably ill-informed, given all the preparation for the World Cup. And it's not exactly hard to find out even if they didn't know in the first place - just type "Harki" into Google, and see what comes up. Takes all of two seconds. The German police force does surely have computers.

"Quisling" would be a racist term for a player of Norwegian extraction playing for Germany. Similarly with "Kapo" for a Jewish player doing the same. When used by people of the same ethnic group these could indeed be political insults rather the racist - but in this case of these Italian banners the message implied would clearly have been "Zidane isn't even French, he's an Algerian - and he's a devalued sort of Algerian at that."

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM

After hearing a selction of the victim's songs - the court accepted a plea of provocation and of self-defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

Sophie Ellis Bextor has been found headbutted to death in a French apartment.

Police say it was murder on Zidanes floor...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:03 PM

France playmaker Zinedine Zidane won the adidas Golden Ball voted for by journalists at the 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany™.

This was chosen before the head butting of course (much to FIFA's embarrassment). I wonder if these same journalists would have still selected Zidane had the choice been made after the event?

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Den
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:54 PM

Well according to Zidane's press conference Materazzi insulted Zidane's Mother and sister three times in succession. I think it was the third time that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:25 PM

An alternative to Alanabit's link with point scoring (I got 1660)

Harki is a loaded term I agree but
(1) the police wouldn't have known it and
(2) it is not at all racist, at least not more than the term Quisling. A collaborator is a member of the same group (race) who collaborates with the enemy.

Well, this time, according to Zidane, it was not the word used like it was last time (1998) when he saw a red card during the world cup for stamping on Saudi Arabia's captain. (I ponder whether McGrath would call it racist when one Arab names another Arab son of a collaborator with the enemy).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

When I was a kid I read a simple sci-fi story about an early attempt in space, maybe it was to go to the moon. It was 'very English'. The reason that I'm bringing it up here is that it explicitly included an incident where the young English hero, expecting to go into space the next day, is out at a public venue and a bully challenges him, and insists that he lick his boot (or, presumably, fight). The young hero licks the boot, because he knows that the least injury will disqualify him for the flight.

I remember this because it seemed very different than any American would possibly imagine, and different than what any American author would write!

So let's imagine that a prescient manager, aware of the frequency of verbal abuse, and of his most reactive (vulnerable) players instituted an anger management program purely so his team would WIN.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

The following from the FIFA site.

France playmaker Zinedine Zidane won the adidas Golden Ball voted for by journalists at the 2006 FIFA World Cup Germany™.
Although his team ultimately failed in their bid to lift the Trophy, Les Bleus' No.10 won the vote for the best player to grace the world stage in Germany. Behind 'Zizou' came Italy's defensive rock Fabio Cannavaro, with the Juventus defender's Azzurri team-mate Andrea Pirlo completing the podium.

After a less than impressive showing from France in the group phase, Zidane finally got into gear against Spain in the Round of 16, producing a virtually flawless performance to steer his side to a famous win and a place in the last eight.

If there is such a thing as footballing perfection, the midfield maestro surely attained it in the quarter-final showdown with Brazil. His superb passes, magical feints and all-round inspiration took France into the last four, where a solid performance and a clinical penalty helped Les Bleus dispose of Portugal.

In the Final against Italy, he opened the scoring with an audacious spot-kick. Despite his tireless prompting, however, Zidane was unable to pick up the second FIFA World Cup winner's medal of a glittering career and was sent from the field in extra time for butting Marco Materazzi in the chest.
ENDS

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM

667

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:09 AM

Probably like many here, I want to see the cheating eradicated but I do not want to see goals devalued. The magic of football is that the lesser side can always win if they can conjure up a goal. Take that away and the game loses its excitement.
By the way, I hope that this
does not become a training video for the next World Cup...

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:08 AM

The point about the foul is good one.

The punishment for a run-of-the-mill foul is what? A free kick.

So a defender, who was the only one between the attacker and their own goalkeeper, loses his player and so decides to commit a foul (their first permitted one) to prevent them. Which has stopped the attack and has brought time for the whole of the rest of their team to come back and all get behind the ball.

The free kick is then of little advantage - compared to the position of the players when the original foul was committed. Perhaps only the defending players in front of the ball when the foul was committed should be permitted to be in front of the ball when the free kick is taken?

As it stands - this same player can repeat this foul play at least once more before they get a yellow card caution. They then can repeat this at least once more before they receive another and be finally sent off. Unless the referee is Graham Poll - who has already working on three.

No wonder the creative attacking players we all like to see, like Zidane and Rooney - who struggle to recover from brutal tackles, see their careers limited by this and who do not feel protected - get so frustrated and often retaliate.

Then there is the penalty area. Where one minor foul by an attacking player will see the ref eagerly blow his whistle and for the slightest excuse to award a free kick to the defending side. But where an attacking player needs to be practically be-headed by a defender before a penalty kick is awarded to the atacking side.

And don't get me started on the offside rule.............

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:18 AM

The problem with soccer nowadays is that the tactical foul has become an accepted technique.

How about changing the scoring.

3 points for a goal
2 points for a free kick
1 point for a corner

and minus 2 or 3 for a dive.

or something like that? Then a lot of current tactical moves would give way to more emphasis being placed on skill and fair play.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM

I think that if it was normal practice that any player verbally abusing opponents was disciplined the practice would stop. In Sunday's incident, both players should have been given a red card, and that should be the normal practice in such incidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:20 PM

Or else if every player reacted like Zidane that kind of thing would cease to be accepted practice.

If every player reacted like Zidane - it would be the end of football and the start of new accepted practice like Ultimate Fighting or the Roman Games. It was an approach that didn't have any effect on the accepted practice of provocation, when practiced for many years by Roy Keane - so why would Zidane's example work any better?

It seems a suggested approach rather similar to the policy followed for the same vain and forlorn hope by the various governments of Israel. With a similar lack of long-term effect and lack of support for this policy from other nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 03:32 PM

Dented for me. I think the French were better... win or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:28 PM

Or else if every player reacted like Zidane that kind of thing would cease to be accepted practice.

How come the police didn't move in to get those banners taken down and the people holding them ejected or arrested? I imagine they would have if they'd been banners calling German players "Nazis". "Harki" - referring to the Algerians who backed the French in the war for Algerian independence - is an extremely loaded, and racist, insult in the context.

I think Mazarotti's status as hero will be pretty limited, and Italy's victory in this World Cup will be permanently dented by association with this whole episode.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

Has there ever been a case where a penalty shoot-out has got to ten players in a team? (McGrath)

Yes, more than once and much more than ten (48 penalties, 24 per team, seems to be the present record)
Penalty shootout trivia

If the number of players both teams have on the field are unequal at the time the shootout is to start (whether from red cards or from injury) the team with more players decides who of them will not partake in the shootout. So if one team is down to nine and the other still has eleven, the team with the eleven players has to state which two of them will not take penalties. This rule has been made to prevent that a red card or a feigned injury or a wilfully inflicted injury will not be helpful to a team. Otherwise it would be a good idea to have your worst penalty shooter break the leg of the other team's best penalty shooter one minute before the shootout and hope the referee sees the foul.

Zidane has a know problem of anger control. He has been sent off 14 times during his professional career. That may not be a world record, but it is a lot when I compare it with the German record of 8. When Zidane was taken off for another player in the last minute of the game against South Korea he completely ruined a cabin door by violent kicks. Before becoming a professisonal he had already a history of extremely violent outbreaks during games. This history has nearly ruined his career before it started. He compensates a low verbal ability in talking back to perceived insults by physical attack.

Verbal abuse should not happen and should be punished when found out but if every player would react like Zidane in such situations The game could not be played. Like a German player said in an interview: If I count the number of times my opponents claim to have slept with my mother, my wife or my sister that'll take a long time.

I don't consider racist remarks worse than other personal abuse BTW. In Zidane's case, the insult seems not to have been racist. He seems to have been called a Harki or a son of a Harki and was already incensed and furious by several big banners (of Italian supporters) stating "Zidane = Harki". That's one of his known weak points. But he should know how to deal with that by now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM

The headbutt-on-the-pitch way of doing things meant that it was done as a public gesture - Mazeratti was identified in a way that must have been felt as humiliating, at considerable personal cost to Zidane. The Samurai approach.

An approach not to be recommended - simply the equivalent of very publicly shooting one's self in the foot?

Materazzi was the one who deserved to be publicly humiliated. But by this approach he wasn't. His team won the World Cup and he was seen to play a proud part in this victory. And whatever the provocation - by publicly rising to it - a player of Zidane talents and reputation is only seen to have set a poor example and to have let his team down. End of story - it was not noble gesture - just a stupid one.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

That may be the way he sees it. I guess none of us will ever know for sure. I would have preferred Zidane to control his temper and stay on the pitch. He would have had the last laugh had he helped France to win the World Cup. Had it been me, I may well have done the same as Zidane. I would like to think I could have handled it more like Rudi Völller though.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:31 AM

The headbutt-on-the-pitch way of doing things meant that it was done as a public gesture - Mazeratti was identified in a way that must have been felt as humiliating, at considerable personal cost to Zidane. The Samurai approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:26 AM

Well shambles if I had my way, the team who had a player sent off would be one player short. If it got that point, the missing player would be counted as having missed his penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM

I think the best example of how to react to that sort of provocation was provided by the German striker Rudi Völler many years ago. In a tense game, in which he was marked by Frank Rijkaard, the Dutchman spat in his face three times. Rudi Völler shouted at him incensed. He did not touch Rijkaard physically at all. The ref saw Völler shouting and sent him off for ungentlemanly conduct. As he was leaving the pitch, Rijkaard spat at him for the fourth time. This time the ref saw it and Rijkaard was also despatched to the changing rooms.
Völler and Rijkaard met and Völler has repeatedly declined to answer questions about what happened in the changing rooms afterwards. He says simply that the quarrel has been settled and he will not comment further. It is Völler's private business, of course. I think it not unlikely that he punched the Dutchman's lights out. No one is telling though.
Völler came out with his reputation and his dignity intact. Not everyone can emulate his superb self discipline, of course. I would like to see a few players try a bit harder though.
In the 1990 final, he was the target of constant brutal fouls. He kept his head until the inevitable happened. He was fouled in the penalty area seven minutes from time. The spot kick went in for the only goal of the game. That is how a winner handles this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:05 AM

The equality in the current system comes because the team with eleven players can "lose" the person they think is the worst penalty taker. The team with ten have to use theirs.

This is nonsense. Why should the side that has not been penalised for foul play be disadvantaged at all in shoot out when there is no attempt at equality in the extra time period? The extra men are thought to be a deserved advantage in the rest of the game - so why try and introduce any form of equality at the end of extra time?

Even a side's worst penalty taker has a chance of scoring - it they are allowed to take one. They have no chance at all if they are not allowed to or have already been sent off.

If we are stuck with this method of settling drawn games why not take the opportunity to further discourage foul play and make a result more likely in the 90 minutes?

Fairest way is whenever a draw cannot tale place is to take the penalty shoot out before the kick off. Then if there is a draw, the result is plain for all to see.

Possibly, but the idea is to try to encourage sides to try and win the games in the 90 minutes and to discourage sides from placing all their players behind the ball in an attempt not to lose. A side that had already won the shoot out would have no real incentive to go all out to win and be content to ensure the other side did not win and just hang on.....Finals are supposed to be about 'sudden death'.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Kweku
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:39 AM

If Zidane felt it was that insulting, I'd shrug if he sought out Materazzi after the match and settled it privately....I dunno, mabe in that walk down the field, that is exactly what I was thinking about yesternite Bill D, because if I remember correctly George Weah(Liberian) headbutted an FC Porto player for racist remarks in the dressing room. Well, George Weah is still wanted by the police in Portugal but well nobody begrudge him for the dresing room offence.

And those who talk who about this and that person being role models for children, I think children should also learn from the role models that provocation is a sin in the sight of man.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:18 AM

Assuming one player has been sent off and it has gone to 10-10....

If a team had ten players and the other eleven all it would mean is that the team with ten would have a player take a second penalty earlier. In the interests of total fairness the numbers have to be equal.

The equality in the current system comes because the team with eleven players can "lose" the person they think is the worst penalty taker. The team with ten have to use theirs.

Fairest way is whenever a draw cannot tale place is to take the penalty shoot out before the kick off. Then if there is a draw, the result is plain for all to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:06 AM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM

Has there ever been a case where a penalty shoot-out has got to ten players in a team?

I can certainly remember a few here they went way beyond the first five.

But whether any have ever gone to 10 players in the past, is not really the point. As the current rules stand and if they are not changed - when it does come to this the side who have lost players for foul play, will not be at a disadvantage for the shoot out. Perhaps the rules should be changed so that they would be disadvantaged? And all the remaining players be able to take a penalty each (except for those on cautions)?

In theory this should encourage sides not to foul and to try and keep all of their players on the pitch. In practice such measures and the win at all costs mentalty - currently encourage teams to simulation and provocation in order to try and get the other side cautioned and sent off.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 03:05 AM

He head-butted the man. Should he have? Not my call. And, no one else's. It was his call. Overall, he is still a fine player and a fine man in my books, and, even moreso for not taking any shit, at any cost. Like McGrath said, "Some things are more important than football."

The intention of the insults etc, was to provoke a fellow footballer into retaliation action that would cause his effectivness to be limited. This cynical action was not prevented and the player was not protected from this provocation by the officials who finished off the job for the Italian player who was not penalised.

Whatever insults Zidane was subject to and not protected from - there was nothing preventing him from taking this up with Mataratzzi when the game had finished (and there were not so many witnesses). He would have been thought an even finer man by many more people had he been able to take this course. He wasn't and he decided to take the law in his own hands and when you do this - you place yourself squarely in the wrong by setting a poor example.

Whilst you are actually playing football (at this level) the only thing more important than football is to show respect to your fellow man. It is called sportsmanship and both parties failed in this and the officials failed in their duty to enable a fair sporting contest.

The win at all costs mentalty and the inability of FIFA to deal with this - has just about overshadowed all the other fine aspects of the game shown elsewhere in this World Cup. One hopes that the next big football event will be different..............

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:50 PM

The headbutt over&over&over. We can wonder at the provocation, but that was HARD!

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:58 PM

He head-butted the man. Should he have? Not my call. And, no one else's. It was his call. Overall, he is still a fine player and a fine man in my books, and, even moreso for not taking any shit, at any cost. Like McGrath said, "Some things are more important than football."

As for what children "see", where is this Garden of Eden anyway? Where the children are sheltered from reality. And taught not to stand up for themselves when they get into the real garden.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:36 PM

Has there ever been a case where a penalty shoot-out has got to ten players in a team?
...............
If it's true that, as has been stated in various news items, what provoked Zidane into the headbutting was that Mazarotti had said that his mother, who had just been admitted to hospital seriously ill, was "an Algerian Whore", his action would seem quite understandable, even admirable. Some things are more important than football.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM

Perhaps rather than just penalising the offending players what is needed is to throw the responsibility for controlling the behaviours of team members on to the coaches and managers and clubs, the way they do at times when it comes to racist chants by supporters.

A way needs to be found of actually preventing all forms foul play. The current system of cards encourages it. For example.

Had the final shoot out not been settled on the first round of five penalties - all the rest would have had to take one in turn until one was missed. But although France were supposed to be penalised by being a man short for violent play - Italy would have only been allowed to use 10 players in the shoot out, to match the 10 that France had available...........

It hardly seems fair that the side which has managed the keep all their players on the pitch are disadvantaged in shoot outs because the other side couldn't manage to keep all of their players on.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:16 PM

Re "limbs flailing rage of Rooney"... IF that was in regard to pushing Renaldo, rather gently I might add, I agree that Rooney should have kept his composure, even when a fellow teammate, a friend, falsely accused him of doing something intentionally. However, I don't understand why Renaldo was not carded. Running up to a ref and yelling and gesturing that a ref has made a bad call is not a yellow? Sure as hell was in a number of other instances.

IF "limbs flailing rage of Rooney" was in reference to stepping on buddy's nuts, I have watched it in slo-mo a number of times. Off balance, falling forward, and trying to regain one's footing is hardly the time to orchestrate a kick in the nuts. IF I am incorrect and he ACTUALLY "DID IT", well, sign him up for a bonus, because anyone that talented deserves more money.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM

The point is, "pushing buttons" - meaning racist and personal insults - is another form of cheating and should be recognised as such. How far it is possible to stamp it out by yellow cards and so forth is another mnatter - but it should be be stigmatised as dirty play, rather than shrugged off as something players targetted in that way need to accept.

It's not just in Football it happens of course - cricket is notorious for the kind of "sledging" that Australians pioneered, and it seems to be have become accepted practice, with no efforts to crack down on it.

Perhaps rather than just penalising the offending players what is needed is to throw the responsibility for controlling the behaviours of team members on to the coaches and managers and clubs, the way they do at times when it comes to racist chants by supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:19 PM

Be da lard sweet sufferin Jaysus, b'ys. Good t'ing none a dees 'ere pussies ever laced up a skate an stepped on'a hoice wit' me an' buddies. I'll bet nare 'alf of 'em could play broomball wit'n maids.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

what do I say? Well, I say that if egregious violent reactions to provocation are 'natural', then penalties are the way we tell the offenders that they need to NOT be so natural.

Theoretically, 'games' are a place to put aside certain 'natural' reactions to stress & frustration. If the Italian provoked ZZ, he should be ashamed, but he WON by pushing buttons that ZZ was already well-known for....if that sort of thing can be called 'winning'. (It didn't really affect the game outcome, but it might have).

Children learn early how to tease others and get 'reactions', but someone in Zidane's position NEEDS to learn why it is better to make the teaser frustrated by NOT responding to his remarks. If Zidane felt it was that insulting, I'd shrug if he sought out Materazzi after the match and settled it privately....I dunno, mabe in that walk down the field, he decided "this IS my final match, I just don't care what the world sees!"....but he is 34, and that image will be with him forever and color whatever he attempts to do in the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST,Quarcoo
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:38 PM

Sorry I logged out and used the back key. But the point I am trying to raise is that if someone can be punished instantly for foul play what about those who deliberately do the provoking. Human beings are not robots,so is not in all instances that you can respond rationally. Check out the look on Rooney's face as C.Ronaldo speaks to the referee(England vrs Portugal),you can see total disgust on the guy's face.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

That is not to say that I was expecting that kind of reaction from a player of Zidane calibre but remember Figo almost did the same thing . Bill D, what do you say.

Figo got away with it (just a yellow card). And whilst there is a chance that players will get away with violent retaliation - they will often take that chance and feel they have little choice.....

But perhaps the answer is that these players should not be placed in this position and should be protected more from the the initial treatment that is now dished-out to them as a matter of course?

Italian defenders especially are skilled at winding-up attacking players. The nipple tweaking, pinching, pushing and spitting is seldom penalised. Verbally questioning a player's parentage and worse - all contribute to the frustration of creative players who feel they have to find other ways of getting even. Very often getting punished for this, when the original offence is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:32 PM

Somewhere, some mother today will have to bring her child to an A&E department of a hospital to get stitches in her son's face, result of a head butt

Not if the headbutter copies Zidane's headbutt-to-the-chest technique.

Crazy thing to do, but it did have a certain style. None of that limbs flailing rage of Rooney, or the embarrassing petulance of Beckham. Nor the flamboyance or Eric Cantona's sorties into the crowd to deal with a pest, for that matter. Precise, clinical, economical.

It appears the journalists voting for that Golden Ball award did so at half-time, before the red card incident. Just as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:19 PM

But I was just wondering aloud, to what extent can you control your behaviour in public. Is like trying to sneeze and you can't because you are in public. That is not to say that I was expecting that kind of reaction from a player of Zidane calibre but remember Figo almost did the same thing . Bill D, what do you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:07 PM

Not a classic tournament and one that will be remembered (if at all) for all the wrong reasons. One only hopes for future events that FIFA will address what they can and leave the rest well alone.

Three 'teams' went out on penalties where the team had the players but were let down by its management. The worst example being Argentina. I would suspect some large ammounts of German money can only explain their manager's choice of substitutes which meant they did not win their game (and the World Cup).

England certainly had the players but perhaps the management team that was good enough to qualify was never going to be good enough to provide the inspiration needed win it?

France again had the players but not the management.


I feel Italy won because although they did not have the players of the quality that they usually send but had a management team that knew how to make the most of what they had.

There were teams like Brazil and Ghana that provided a lot of entertainment but these did not make it past the quarter final stages.

The home team found they had a manager who could certainly raise the performance of the players available to him to a level that surprised everyone (except possibly me) - but it should be recognised that (like England) this level was not enough to win against their quarter final opponents. But to their credit they can still score in penalty shoot outs - if you are still awake to see this.

The impression was of a number of good sides - but with no outstanding player or strategy emerging and a lot of refereeing problems remaining to be solved. FIFA's inability to deal with things like 'simulation' and their botched attempts - probably contributed a lot to the overall unsatisfactory impression of the 2006 event.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:58 AM

it makes little difference what was said...no one could hear, and it could have been settled later...but 2 Billion people could SEE the response...and that is what will be remembered.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Kweku
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:46 AM

Another world cup has ended.

Can't wait for the next one.

BTW,has anyone heard that Materazzi was saying behind Zidane's back this in Italian, black monkey raised by Islamic terrorists. others also said the two players were insulting themselves.

The game of football and its drama,can it get any better than this.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:06 AM

The awkward thing about the World Cup is that it IS only every 4 years, and often requires teams to be patched together with players who don't play together every day.....then they play a few random games, with 'knockout' rounds at the end....and some of these decided by penalty kicks. Hardly a formula for deciding who is really 'best'.

Given a 4 month, round-robin tournament, with each team playing all of the others 3-4 times, and the final 8 playing for the last month, perhaps England would have won...or Brazil....or even Italy still. (And the US team 'might' have found a way to begin scoring..) But it is what it is, and a couple of slightly better bounces or balls that went IN the goal instead of off the bar---and the outcome would have been totally different.

What *I* would like to see is a tournament where all teams just try to be GOOD...with no diving, no intentional fouls and ...*horrors*...video REPLAYS to make sure about offside calls and fouls in really crucial situations. (perhaps 3 requests per game per team)....

silly of me, I know...but then I'm a dreamer who is not a life-long football fan and don't really appreciate the ubiquitous role of testosterone and National Pride uhhh...Tribal Bonding in all of this.

I saw some amazing talent and athleticism this last month, and also some tedious posturing and vicious thuggery...all in the name of the biggest 'sporting' event in the world.

What strange creatures we be.

Subject: RE: BS: Football World Cup 2006
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:47 AM

ZZ was provoked into retaliation.

I would more than headbutt any guy who carressed by left nipple.