African Music Threads & Posts

Subject: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:38 PM

The purpose of this thread is to provide a listing of archived and current Mudcat threads about traditional & contemporary African music and a samplying of posts within those threads.   

This thread also includes examples of posts on African music that are from those threads as well as from Mudcat threads that aren't specifically about the subject of African music.

Note: The term "African music" includes music from Africans who are
non-Black and "non-Coloured" to use the South African terminology.

I've been encouraging people interested in African culture to visit Mudcat. However, several people have told me that when they came here they couldn't find the discussions on African music.

I am hoping that this listing will make it easier for Mudcat members & guests to identify threads and comments on African music. Now if folks are searching on Mudcat for discussions on this topic, they can enter the key words 'African Music' in the Search box and this thread will come up. Then they can click on the hyperlink for a specific thread that is listed.

Also, when they click on this thread, they can read a sampling of comments from those threads to get a sense of the various discussions.

There may be a better way to compile these thread listings. For instance, perhaps a listing of related threads under the thread title is sufficient. However, how would a list located there be kept current? Your input is very much welcomed.

I hope that Mudcat members and guests will continue to post new comments on specific archived & current threads on African music.
I also hope that Mudcat members and guests will continue to start new threads about African music.

Needless to say, in whatever form this thread [permathread?] actually becomes, I welcome the assistance of other Mudcat members & from guests in adding to and updating it.


Thank you.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:40 PM

Disclaimer:

My reposting comments about African music from Mudcat threads does not mean that I agree with those comments, unless I wrote them.

Also, I have no intention of reposting comments written by any Mudcat member anywhere else without that member's prior permission.

Furthermore, it is definitely not my intention that this thread take the place of specific Mudcat threads on African music.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:45 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=91489&messages=4

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fela Kuti's Open & Close
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:59 PM

Roberto, unfortunately I don't have those lyrics you are seeking.

You may be aware of this website: Fela Kuti's Lyrics

That site has the lyrics [and explanations for several of] these Fela Kuti's Afrobeat songs:

1. BEASTS OF NO NATION
2. COFFIN FOR HEAD OF STATE
3. COLOMENTALITY
4. FEAR NOT FOR MAN
5. J'EHIN J'EHIN
6. INTERNATIONAL THIEF THIEF
7. KALAKUTA SHOW
8. LADY
9. MR. FOLLOW FOLLOW
10. MR. GRAMMARTICALOGYLISATIONALISM IS THE BOSS
11. ORIGINAL SUFFERHEAD
12. NO AGREEMENT
13. POWER SHOW
14. QUESTION JAM ANSWER
15. SORROW, TEARS, AND BLOOD
16. TEACHER DON'T TEACH ME NONSENSE
17. TROUBLE SLEEP, YANGA WAKE AM
18. WATER NO GET ENEMY
19. ZOMBIE



Here's an example of one of Fela's songs that I really like:

LADY

If you call woman
African woman no go 'gree
She go say I be Lady o

If you call woman
African woman no go 'gree
She go say I be Lady o

She go say:
*(CHORUS) SHE GO SAY I BE LADY O – [AFTER EACH LINE]
She go say I no be woman
She go say market woman na woman
She go say I be Lady

I want tell you about Lady: (3x)
She go say him equal to man
She go say him get power like man
She go say anything man do
Him self fit do
I never tell you finish… (3x)
I never tell you…
She go want take cigar before anybody
She go want make you open door for am
She go want make man wash plate for her for kitchen
She want salute man she go sit down for chair (2x)
She want sit down for table before anybody (2x)
She want piece of meat before anybody (2x)
Call am for dance, she go dance Lady dance (2x)

African woman go dance she go dance the fire dance (2x)
She know him manna Masster
She go cook for am
She go do anything he say
But Lady no be so (4x)
Lady na Masster (3x)
Call am for dance, she go dance Lady dance (2x)
African woman go dance she go dance the fire dance (2x)
She know him manna Masster
She go cook for am
She go do anything he say

But Lady no be so (4x)
Lady na Masster (4x)
If you call am woman
African woman no go 'gree
She go say I be Lady

She go say:
*(CHORUS- AFTER EACH LINE) SHE GO SAY I BE LADY O O
She go say I be Lady
She go say I no be woman
She go say market woman na woman
She go say I be Lady
*(repeat indefinitely)

-snip-

I hope someone here can help you find the lyrics you are seeking. If not, please remember to post those lyrics here whenever you find them.

Best wishes,

Azizi

[request for the lyrics to Fela Kuti's Afrobeat song "Open & Close"]

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:51 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=51518&messages=22

Subject: RE: Mbira banned? Malcolm Douglas, please
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:51 PM

I found this thread while "mudcatting" for archived threads that mention African music.

See this information about the mbira:

"The mbira (also known as sanza or thumb piano) is a unique kind of tuned percussion instrument. You produce sound by using your thumbs and fingers to pluck very thin strips or tongues of metal, wood or cane. These strips are attached to a gourd resonator or wooden box, often with sound holes. Sometimes, jingles or beads are added to the keys to create a rich, buzzing tone. You can change the pitch of each key by fixing wax to its free end, or by increasing or decreasing its length.

Among east African peoples, the delicate sound of the mbira is said to create a link between human and spiritual worlds, enabling the trance possession of people by spiritual beings. Depending on the context, these instruments may be played singly or in pairs. Among the Shona nations, ensembles of up to twenty mbira players performed at ceremonial events.

Mbiras travelled with African people to South, Central, and North America and to the Caribbean, particularly during the slave trade. In Brazil, these instruments are called a marimbao. In the Americas, mbiras are a vibrant expression of the rich heritage of the African peoples of these communities."

Information about various folk instruments


-snip-

I'm wondering if attempts to ban the mbira {thumb piano} among the Shona people of Zimbabwe, South Africa might have been like banning drum playing by enslaved African Americans in the US South.

In traditional African societies drums were considered sacred {and may still be considered that way among some modern day Africans}. Traditionally {and still today} mbiras are considered sacred in Zimbabwe and some other African nations.

It is common {among some African Americans and others I suppose} to assert that the reason why drums were prohibited in the US slave states at some point [historians can insert when] was that the drums signaled slave revolts. Maybe this was true, and maybe it was a fear turned into a "rural legend". But even if that reason for banning drums was true, it seems to me that it is too simplistic an explanation of what drums meant to enslaved African Americans.

Could it [also] be that drum playing was prohibited because it served a psychological, spiritual, physical healing, motivating, power giving unifying purposes among enslaved African Americans?

See this quote about Stella Chiweshe:
"Zimbabwe's foremost Mbira player, Stella Rimbisai Chiweshe - " The Queen of Mbira" - blends haunting mbira lines with percussion and call & response singing behind her evocative vocals. She sings and plays songs of liberation, spiritual experience and social commentary. The effect is the mbira dzaVadzimu, the classic Zimbabwean thumb-piano, which is a medium for playing songs handed down from generation to generation for centuries and for maintaining contact with the spirits of the Shona people. The Mbira consists of 22 to 28 metal keys mounted on a hardwood soundboard and is usally placed inside a large gourd resonator (deze). The keys are played with the two thumbs plucking down and the right forefinger plucking up."

http://www.cdroots.com/hm-chiwese02.html


-snip-

I would like to emphasize this sentence from that quote:
"She sings and plays songs of liberation, spiritual experience and social commentary."

Is that enough reason for banning that instrument? In a repressive culture. Yes.

Is that the same thing that happened in the US slave South? Maybe.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:52 PM

I am of course delighted that people research and preserve their own traditions. But what white (or should I say non-black?) people have contributed to African music and how? This is not I hope going to validate Bert Kampfert.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:55 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=24156#273809

Subject: RE: Tin whistle, concertina, South Africa
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler - PM
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 06:08 AM

There was a vogue for "Township" music in the decade I'm not allowed to mention, following the visit to UK by a black company doing the boxing musical King Kong. One that got into the UK charts was Tom Hark by Elias and his Zig Zag Jive flutes (no kidding). Following Paul Simon's more recent forays into S.Africa with Gracelands there is more awareness of townshop music (thumb pianos are still popular I think) but I can't suggest any bands, I'm more familiar with the jazz players from there (Louis Moholo, Hugh Masekela generation). Miriam Makeba might be a starting point though the Xhosa (?) "Click" music may be too specialised.
Consider this a holding statement till a real expert chips in!
(pointing out my many mistakes and misconceptions is a popular Mudcat sport but reduces my ignorance level somewhat!)
RtS

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:57 PM

Subject: RE: Tin whistle, concertina, South Africa
From: Peter T. - PM
Date: 08 Aug 00 - 05:41 PM

Off a South African Web site (slim pickings out there), some of these names may help:

Another musical trend which was to influence mbaqanga, was kwela or pennywhistle jive, which grew in popularity during the 1940's and 1950's. An Alexandria township youth Willard Cele inspired a legion of followers with his unique technique, and the 1951 movie The Magic Garden also publicized theinstrument. By 1954, when one of pennywhistle's main legends Spokes Mashiyane recorded a #1 hit, "Ace Blues", pennwywhistle was a youth rage. (Kwela, "climb up", takes its name from the term many of these youngsters heard shouted at them by police officers herding them into paddywagons). Spokes, and fellow pennywhistle hotshot Lemmy "Special" Moboso (who plays today alongside Thomas Phale with the Soul Brothers), would later turn to saxophone in place of pennywhistle, while retaining the light, jaunty melodic lines which were characeristic of kwela."
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:01 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=17063

Subject: Lyr Add: AG PLEEZ DADDY (Jeremy Taylor)
From: Wotcha - PM
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 08:12 AM

I need some help filling in the gaps on the following, but thought this song would be a fine contribution to the kids section of the database:

AG PLEEZ DADDY -- Copyright to Jeremy Taylor

(1) Ag Pleez Daddy/
Won't you take us to a drive-in/
All 6, 7 of us, 8, 9, 10/
We wanna see a flick about Tarzan and the ape men/
When the show is over/
You can bring us back again.

Chorus:
Popcorn, chewing gum/
Peanuts and bubblegum/
Ice cream, candy floss, and Eskimo Pie/
Knickerpulls [?} and liquorice/
Pepsi Cola, Ginger beer, and Calico Rye[?}/

(2) Ag Pleez Daddy/
Won't you take us to the funfair/
We wanna have a ride on the bumper cars/
We'll buy a stick of candy floss/
And eat it on the octopus/
And then we'll take a rocket ship that goes to Mars./

(3) Ag Pleez Daddy/
Won't you take us to the wrestling/
We want to see that oaf called Sky High Lee/
Whe he fights Willie Liefenburg/
There's gonna be a murder/
Poor Willie's gonna don a red bloody hanky/

(4) Ag Pleez Daddy/
Won't you take us off to Durban/
It's only 8 hours, in a Chevrolet/
There's fantasy and ...[...]../
There's tons of fish in the aquarium/
The ideal place for a holiday/
AG PLEEZ DADDY!!!

*Ag is pronounced much like ach or och.

Apparently, according to earlier thread this was a number one song on South Africa's music radio. It certainly is remembered by kids I knew from Malawi, Rhodesia, and RSA. Appreciate the help filling in the blank lines.

Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:02 PM

There is currently discussion of African music(and musicians) in an un-named English city , on a thread about people playing music from alien cultures. But you cant really isolate the specifically African posts from the general flow of the conversation/
There is a thread somewhere about musicians from Zimbabwe in Sandbach (Cheshire, UK), but I dont know how to do blue clickies to Mudcat threads. I am myself working with a number of Zibabwean singers on various recording and educational prejects, but I'm not sure if I have anything to say on the subject particularly at the moment.
   The festival I have jy=ust played at in Cumbria was organised by an African, but I dont think it had anything to do with African music.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:07 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=35217#1343740

Subject: RE: African mudcatters? Am I alone?
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 07:07 PM

One aspect of African music that tends to get neglected is Afrikaans music - I gather there's quite a lively tradition. Here's a page about it Anglo Concertinas in South Africa , and a link in it to an interesting site with lots of pictures, and details of records, though no sound files that I could find - Traditional Boer Music [link not operable;
5/26/06]

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:13 PM

In "Ag pleez daddy" a couple of posts back, I'm afraid the word transcribed as "knickerpulls" a should probably read "niggerballs" ( a kind of sweet, by the way).

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:19 PM

Hello, Greg.

You said "...you cant really isolate the specifically African posts from the general flow of the conversation"

Yes, I know. But I'm trying to capture the flavor of the threads, and not the entire conversation.

You also said "I dont know how to do blue clickies to Mudcat threads". Unfortunately, my blue clickies always turn out brownish red. I'm not sure why that is, but hopefully they still work.

****

Many of the comments that I'm reposting were written by me because I've often posted here on the subject of African culture, and because I'm mindful of the fact that I'm reposting comments from others on this thread without their prior permission.

I'd like to take this opportunity to give a big shout out and thank you to all those Mudcat members besides myself whose posts are featured in this thread. If you do not want your posts featured on this thread, you can alert Joe Offer and he or other moderators can delete them.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:20 PM

The other line misrendered that I know is "we'll fish in the aquarium".

But as (white) South Africa and Rhodesia were cuckoo cultures, can their performers, whether for or against the white regimes, be considered "african", any more than Norman French was the English language?

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:21 PM

Opps! I also want to give a big shout out and thank you to any
Guests non-members whose posts are featured in this thread.

If you do not want your posts featured on this thread, you also can alert Joe Offer by posting on this thread and he or other moderators can delete them.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:27 PM

There is quite a bit on Mudcat on the subject of two African songs that have impacted most on the American and British folk scene: Mbube(aka Wimoweh) and Shosholosa. Unfortunately I think the various possible spellings of Shosholosa(I've no idea what is standard) makes it a bit difficult to look up. But I've certainly talked about it, as have many others.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:39 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=58860#1341937

Subject: RE: Origins: Fan Ban Ny Ay (Kenyan?)
From: GUEST,Philippa - PM
Date: 01 May 03 - 06:05 AM

The words we sing are

Fan Ban ny ay, fan ban ny-ay ny ba ba
Fan ban ny ay, fan ban ny-ay ny ba ba

Teena tenda, teena tenda ny ba ba (x2)

Moonay roo do, moonay roo do ny ba ba (x2)

Maca na ca, maca naca ny ba ba

Fan ban, etc

I don't know what they mean and I imagine we don't pronounce everything as we should. I don't have sheet music.

****

Subject: RE: Origins: Fan Ban Ny Ay (Kenyan?)
From: GUEST,Philippa - PM
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 09:22 AM

I was looking for a thread on African music just so I could advise readers that there are several articles/reviews on the topic at
http://www.bellaonline.com/subjects/5714.asp

I read review of a recording by a group from Kenya called Abana; the reviewer wasn't too keen on their mixing of African and Celtic music.
but anyway, this gives me an excuse to revive this long unanswered query about Fan Ban Ny Aye

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 16 May 06 - 07:40 PM

I'll add to this thread some other time.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:36 PM

Norman French had an enormous impact on English culture, no doubt including English music and song. After all, there aren't too many people around who speak Anglo-Saxon.

Just one example of influences from Europe on African Music - choral singing in South Africa has drawn a great deal from the hymnology of English missionaries. And without imported gumboots there wouldn't be gumboot dancing.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:18 PM

I just found a great online resource on African music and -though it has nothing to do with previous Mudcat threads or posts on the subject, I'm going to post it here:

The African Music Encyclopedia


I particularly like the glossary page on that site, and find it interesting that the glossary includes descriptions of various styles of Caribbean music as well as North, South, East and West African music genres.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:28 PM

RE: Origins: Fan Ban Ny Ay (Kenyan?),

I asked a friend of mine who is from Kenya if he recognized this song and if so would he identify which language it's from.

Unfortunately, my friend-who is from the Luo ethnic group-said he didn't recognize thise words. However, he said they probably weren't from the Luo or Swahili languages.

I was hoping that he would solve the mystery about this song.
But perhaps eventually someone else may be able to do so.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:33 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=23813

[note: There are related threads about "The lion sleeps tonight" listed under this thread title]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: lion sleeps tonight
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 04:49 PM

I found the reference to "imbube" in the African Stars book that I mentioned earlier. That book mentions that "imubube" is the "first genuine isicathamiya style" and "its pioneer {is} Solomon Linda {page 165).

"Isicathamiya" is an urban music that dates from 1891. The music was performed by & associated with Black African migrant laborers. However, isicathamiya's four part choral songs are very much indebted to Zulu wedding songs and their accompanying choreography. In the United States, Ladysmith Black Mambazo is perhaps the most well known isicathamiya group. The name of that group translates as "The Black axe from Ladysmith".

If you are at all interested in African music, try to find "African Stars". It's a good read!!

Also, for a very good children's CD on African music, I would recommend Ladysmith Black Mambazo's Gift of the Tortoise: A Musical Journey through South Africa.[Music for Little People, ISBN 1-56628-035-4]. "Mbube" is one of the songs included in that CD. Printed lyrics are also included. For all the other tunes, the Zulu words are given followed by their English translations. However, in the case of Mbube, the only Zulu words given are the refrain "Mbube mamayo". This may be because the version we are most familiar with strays so far away from Linda's original words which may not be considered politically correct now what with the lion being killed now thanks to the Lion King play and movie and probably even before. But I would have loved to have read the Zulu translation of even this nicey nice revised version. Oh well.

And just because, I want to say "Right on!" to Richard Wright who posted up thread in 2003. I wish you were still posting here, Richard whoever you are and where ever you may be. We need more "voices" like yours here.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:36 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=69011#1167315

Subject: Need an Accordion for Kenya
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt - PM
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:15 AM

Hi All Catters

This an important appeal for an accordion for me to take over to Kenya in Africa. I took and accordion over in December last year where I taught it to locals and left it there. I am going again this September and I need another to take over an leave. The accordion does not need to be new it can be an oldish one as long as it play a tune or two!!

Music is such a good tool over there to lift spirts and give people pride in their culture. When I visit as well as teaching the accordion I am going to be learning the tribes traditional music, song, dance and customs.

I am going over with the charity SENGWER AID

SENGWER AID is a Registered Charity which aims to help the Sengwer Tribe of Kenya to help themselves.

SENGWER AID was formed after my mum's chance meeting with the tribe in August 2002. She was impressed with their efforts to make the most of the very little that they had; every day they battle with great hardships. The Sengwer are bright and hardworking people but they were turned out of their lands by White Settlers in the 1930's. Since then they have suffered much oppression and have struggled to survive. No-one has every helped them before. Because my mum made such good friends with them she has continued to help them; in January 2004 she set up Sengwer Aid to make sure that every single penny that she raises goes direct to help families who are living in real poverty. The Sengwer are now becoming stronger and fighting to retain their precious culture and way of life.   

I visited the tribe in December 2002 / January 2003 and was given such a warm welcome. Please help us to help them!

The accordion does not need to be new as long as I can get a tune out of it!!!

Thakyou for your help and support, Sam

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:44 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=79534#1440453

[Note: See the following two excerpts from that thread. As is the case with all of these sample posts, those people who are interested in the topic are encouraged to read the entire discussion-and join it by posting to that specific thread]

Subject: Musical Roots
From: Torctgyd - PM
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:13 AM

Following on from the thread about the possible influence on Gospel music of the Gaels from NW Scotland one of the posters remarked that he would have liked the program to investigate the musical culture of West Africa where the slaves came from.

This made me think. How can musicoligists say that because the music of West Africa now is as it was 250 years ago? Might not the music of this region been 'contaminated' by missionaries from the very same area of Scotland (or the southern US for that matter) bringing their lining out to the native populations. Not just that but the 'contamination' from influences from all over the world via religous practices, radio and television and the introduction of new instruments.

We cannot be certain, for example, how Mozart's works sounded, or how he meant them to sound even though we've got the written scores. How can musicolgists talk about what was, or wasn't done, around the camp fires hundreds of years ago in the African bush? Just look at how many versions of songs and tunes there are from the British Isles and most of them are no more than 150 - 200 years old. This illustrates how quickly changes come about in oral traditions even in, what was at the time, the most advanced and literate nation in the world (possibly!).

Are similarites between two or more traditions just coincidence, related to each other or the result of convergent evolution? How can you prove it either way where populations have moved around, inter bred and traded goods, ideas and music for hundreds or thousands of years?

T

****

Subject: RE: Musical Roots
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 08:00 PM

Torctgyd -

Those are interesting questions you are raising.

Here are some responses that I thought of:

There are some early records of map makers, adventurers and other relatively lone travelers who did not remain in the area to teach or convert but did document some aspects of the culture in a "by the way" or more observant manner.

Early field recordings and drawings/photographs of ethnic groups people can be compared with later recordings and drawings/photographs/videos.

Also there have been more isolated West African ethnic groups whose music and religion and other indices of their culture has been studied and documented after more "popular" ethnic groups such as the Ashanti and the Yoruba. ..

Furthermore one can ask people was things were like before. We use interviews with informants to find out information about other folk cultural offerings. Why not African music?

The West African musican class {called by the French word 'griot' but also known by the name/title "Jali"} are trained for years to accurately remember generations after generations of their ancestors=both their names and the deeds that they are known for. Jalis are historians/singers/musicians..and the Jali tradition lives on in Senegal and other West African nations [not to mention their practice of creating 'insult' songs lives on in Calypso and Rap music]

Furthermore, I believe that traditional African societies {like other traditional societies} had a different attitude towards and more respect & appreciation for the past than, say, most people in modern day USA do. I believe that certain customs and practices can be documented to have lived on in those societies because the some of the people [maybe fewer than before] want them to take pains for them to. Studying these traditions would also provide information about cultural continuity and change.

One other thought-anthropologist can also study the societies created by Maroons {runaway slaves} in Jamaica, Brazil and more isolated African American peoples like the Gullah people of the Sea Isles of Georgia to get an idea of what music, religion, and other cultural practices were like in West Africa.

Here is one example of cultural continuity from Colin M. Turnballs's 1966 book Tradition and Change in African Tribal Life {Avon Pubishing}

"The first boy born to a Bushman family is named for his father's father, and the first girl is neamed for her father's mother.
The next children are named after their mother's parents, and then, ift he family grows still further, names are taken form the children's various uncles and aunts. This is quite a widespread custom, although the details are different from tribe to tribe. It is all part of a pattern that creates a special bond between old and young people..But it is more than juet a mark of affection, it is part of the whole tribal system. It is the belief that somehow the tribe that is living today is a reflection of the past, and will also extend into the future. Past, present, and future all fuse into one. That is why some important rituals are performed exactly, to the smallest detail, as they are believed to have been performed by the original ancestors. The coronation of the Kabaka, or king, of BaGanda is a fine example of this, he has actually to retrace the footsteps of his ancestor, the founder of the kingdom, and go through the various events that befell him". {pp. 44-45}

end of quote..
{It should be noted that this is the page that the book opened to when I went to see what I could find on your question}...

BTW, Torctgyd-"natives" and "African bush" are loaded terms which can be more than a bit off-putting..But that's the way society generally refers to African societies. I have seldom heard these terms being used to refer to persons born in rural areas of, say, England or Germany...

Just something to think about..

Azizi

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:51 PM

Azizi,

Perhaps it would help people searching here for posts about African music if you could describe how you found these posts, so they could look them up, too.

How will you handle avoiding splitting discussions between this thread, if people post here or further discuss the posts you have quoted instead of going back to the respective threads they came from, to comment there? That did come up a few times in the early days of the Spirituals permathread-- as you might recall, I went back to those originating threads and reposted people's comments there to keep those discussions together.

Joe Offer's stated policy has been that no existing thread can be become a permathread-- that a permathread has to be made that way from the outset in cooperation with Joe for activating it and having the necessary editing tools activated.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:55 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=79469&messages=96


Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: blind will - PM
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 01:31 AM

Hope nobody minds a late comer!
This has been a very interesting thread and has inspired me to write my first post on mudcat cafe.I've already learned things I didn't know before from others hear and some of my thinking has been corrected in the process.

The lined out genre that came from Britian (including Gaelic Psalm singing) was an important contribution to the early development of black religious music in the States.It also had impact on atleast some of what we call black gospel today (however watered down).But other European roots should not be overlooked.Nor should African factors not be considered.

One thing that would be good to remember is that black church/black religious music has come in a diversity of musical styles.Black American sacred song didn't all begin with one specific style or hybrid, with everything else following it's foot steps.This is a lengthy sample of it's diversity:

________________ Black Lining Out ________________

This black religious style (often called surge singing) was probably the first African/European hybrid to be common in black churches.It has African vocal qualities and other African traits, but shares the undanceable irregular rhythmn of white/British styles of Lining out.So far I've only heard one example of this type of singing (among black Americans) and it had the same slow focus as the whites I've heard, just extra slow.It sounded like a bunch of black men trying to sing at a funeral, not shure of what musical direction they were going to take.(Not a racist comment, just my way of describing it).The lyrics they were singing were from the popular Amazing Grace hymn, but to a totally different tune (and almost no tune).

__________ Ring Shout __________

In much contrast to the black lined out songs is the ring shout.This style is essentially an African type of music with little or no influence from European music, different sources suggesting that it's origin is in Africa.But it's emotional tendacys may often owe something to white religious fervor such as the "Irish Shouters" of 18th Century Ireland.It is characterised by a very repetitive sound, shouting, circle dancing, stomped out rhythmns (often sounding like a drum) and sometimes even yodelling or screaming.Put in the black spiritual category, it was not only found in black churches but also in the racially mixed revivals, Methodist meetings and camp services of the 18th and 19th centuries.While many whites questioned the ring shouts or thought they were pagan, other whites joined in and did it in their own white churches.In the 20th Century the ring shout was preserved in black Pentecostal/Holiness churches and echos of it's sound can be heard in the more dramatic and rocking types of black gospel today.

_____________________________ The Revival/Camp Meeting Song _____________________________

This style is more associated with the "white folk hymn" tradition, being more upbeat or regular than the lined out genre.But it initially began as the result of black slaves and whites freely singing together in the early American revival/Methodist/camp scene--causing a sound that mixed British based folk melodies (often drawing on ballads) with African music elements.It is characterised by simple and repeated texts, often using clapping, minor keys and a "flatted 7th scale".One song from this tradition is the popular "Give Me That Old Time Religion" sung for years in both black and white churches.It had a indirect influence on all the music we commonly call black gospel.

__________________________ Black Spiritual folk music __________________________

In it's original folk form, black spirituals came in atleast three styles: the very African ring shout (mentioned earlier), the partially formed blues or primitive blues style that often spoke of sorrow or death (sometimes sung in a ethereal unison blues chant) and the more upbeat/hopefull sounds of songs like Swing Low, Sweet Chariot.The common European musical elements that did crop up in the spritual folk song came from the white religious world that the slaves were exposed to.And most of that exposure came from two styles--the irregular lined out songs (including Gaelic Psalm tunes) and the more regular revival/camp meeting song.I have notised interesting similarities between Gaelic Psalm singing and the unison-blues chant I've heard from the black church.

_____________________ Barbershop Spirituals _____________________

A trend that began in the 19th century was singing black spirituals in close barbershop quartet harmony style.Barbershop itself was an originally black American style, despite it's strong European feel (atleast compelling evidence supports such a claim).It goes back to atleast the early 184O's and was popular in "black minstrel shows" where whites made fun of blacks.My own research suggests that it took much of it's smooth European sound from a type of 4 part harmony music that came to the States from Austria.(Mennonites of German origin also have a 4 part harmony music that bares strong similarities to barbershop).Mixed with elements of black spiritual song the smooth Austrian harmonies became barbershop, forming the foundation of all black American quartet harmony.By the early decades of the 20th Century, singing black spirituals in barbershop style became even more predominate, popularised by black university singers that were known as "jubilee quartets".Eventually the barbershop spirituals would spread from the universities to the black churches.By expanding this religious barbershop sound with new musical influences (eg. the gospel of Thomas Dorsey) the black gospel quartet sound began.

------------------------

The examples above already give an idea of the diverse roots of black gospel and black American religious music in general.Other styles such as a black tradition of sacred harp singing could also be cited.Eventually I will try to give a more direct look at black gospel as a whole, but first I'll wait for some possible feedback!

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:05 PM

Susan,

I found these threads by entering "African music" in the search box.

Prior to starting this thread, I pmed Joe Offer, described my idea for this thread, and asked him if what I was doing was a thread or a permathread.

If I understood him correctly, Joe's opinion was that this concept sounded like a thread and not a permathread.

As for persons posting their comments about specific thread topics here instead of on those threads, I can only reiterate my pecious statements that this thread in no way should take the place of those specific archived or current threads. And members and guests who want to start new threads on generalities or specifics of the
multi-faceted subject of African music should do so.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:07 PM

Correction:

"pecious"="previous" and not "precious"

Well, maybe my statements are precious to me if not to anyone else.

:0}

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:11 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=76372#1353977

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 04 - 11:22 AM

But contemporary adaptions of festivals like Notting Hill has no historic antecedents in Britain, so I don't think it is a legitimate example of black British influences on what most British folk music afficionados would refer to as "their peoples' music".

I would also point out that the example given by Greg doesn't exactly wash either. There is no evidence of African fiddle traditions influencing British folk music, because the blacks in Britain at that time didn't have indigenous African fiddle traditions to draw from, and would have assimilated themselves into the white British fiddle music traditions and not the other way round. There is no evidence I am aware of that shows blacks in Britain having African music traditions and instruments being adopted in Britain the way they were in the US and other parts of the New World like West Indies of Trinidad, Tobago, and also certain parts of South America--NOT EUROPE!!! That would come MUCH later.

That isn't to say there were no fiddle traditions in Africa at the time in question, because there were, but they were almost exclusively North African in origin, like imzad fiddle music. It is my understanding that there just weren't many North Africans living in Britain at that time (1700s), and the few of them there were, certainly didn't have the power or influence Greg is suggesting upon the English fiddle tradition, as their music tradition roots were from sub-Saharan Africa, and their presence in Britain being due to their participation in the British slave trade.

The 'New African Music' that Europeans are now familiar with has it's roots in the hybridized African, European, and American pop music influences that resulted from the slave trade in the New World, not in the indigenous folk music of Africa travelling directly to Europe. The music and traditions of calypso, carnival, etc came by way of the New World, and are unique hybrids based upon which European culture enslaved them. In other words, the Spanish/African influence gave rise to the tango and rumba, the French/African influence gave rise to biguine, and the Portugese/African influence gave rise to the samba.

It was the British who are mostly responsible for the colonization of the Caribbean, and so the combination of the British/African music traditions resulted in what is now known as calypso (from Trinidad). But Carnival's influence is directly related to the Christian festival, hence it's seeming "universality" among Europeans. The connecting factor is Shrovetide, of course, despite the very pagan nature of the festivals and their anti-religious fervor. Carnival is essentially a pagan rebellion against the Christian hegemonic grip upon the enslaved peoples of the New World, leading into religious orthodoxy and it's "sacrifices" forced upon them during the season of Lent.

Azizi, if you are interested in the call and response thing, you may wish to track down an excellent series done for American public radio by black American historian Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon (also of Sweet Honey in the Rock fame). It was called "WADE IN THE WATER: AFRICAN AMERICAN SACRED MUSIC TRADITIONS." She devotes almost an entire program on the influences of call and response between the African slaves and the Scottish descendants of the Hebrides, who also used call and response in their hymn singing, upon both communities' music traditions. It's a fascinating subject.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:16 PM

No disrespect intended, but what, exactly, is the purpose of this thread? It is not, apparently, discussion, but simply a digging up and re-posting of other stuff which folks could, if they're interested, find on their own, no? Or is there going to be a discussion? (Or a quiz?)

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:49 PM

BuckMulligan and others,

I started this thread to make it easier for folks to locate threads on the subject of African music.

Locating those threads may be easy for folks who are familiar with Mudcat, and may know how to use the search box on the front page of the listing of current Mudcat threads.

But, there are people out there who are not familiar with Mudcat. And there are folks who may not know how to use that seach engine.

In 2002 qhen a Mudcat member visited my website and told me about this forum's threads on African American secular slave songs, I had to ask him to define what he meant by "threads". And when I first came to Mudcat, I didn't understand that you had to click on the title of the subject you were interested in to bring that discussion up on the screen so that you could read that discussion, and possibly join in that discussion.

The concept of threads may be unfamiliar to other folk. I repeat that it is my hope that this thread helps folk locate discussions on African music. And by increasing their familiarity with threads and posts and hyperlinks [all completely unfamiliar words to me before I "got" what Mudcat was about], maybe these individuals who are specifically interested in the subject of African music, will stick around and and join in other discussions, and-hopefully, join Mudcat and regularly posts on whichever thread they wish to, and start new threads too.

As to whether there will be a quiz on this subject, if you want such a quiz, you'll have to develop it yourself.

And then you can start a new thread and post that quiz there and then respond or not respond to those who like the quiz, or dislike the quiz, or suggest additional questions, or demand that you delete a question, or can't figure out what the heck you are doing, or question your motives, or feel that the quiz is completely or partially relevant or irrelevant.

Hey, it happens to the best of us-and the worst of us depending on whose assessment one accepts or does not accept.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 08:58 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=80028#1453251

Subject: Lyr Req: Bizarro: Juba Zulu/Ndbele Lyrics/Chords?
From: chico - PM
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:46 PM

I bought a cd from JUBA, a company of a capella singers who perform Zulu and Ndbele songs like "Mambo Jesu". I can't find anything as far as the lyrics are concerned (I bought the mp3s not a physical cd). Does anyone have them? Heard of them? Is this bizarre? I want more truly african music other than siyahamba and kumbaya

http://www.dandemutande.org/Catalog/?cat=Music&subcat=Voice&artist=Juba

Siyaya eJerusalema? Zulu Seliyaduma? Helpy

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:01 PM

It might also be helpful to direct potential new members to the FAQ thread (found in the drop-down box a-top the thread list as well as in the page's banner of links), where all search functions are clearly described. Most internet-savvy folks know what a FAQ or Help link are for.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:02 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=55665#866823

[see the following two excerpted posts from that thread]:

Subject: Lyr Req: South African Folk Music
From: Blackcatter - PM
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 11:15 PM

Greetings all,

I'm looking for songs in the English tradition idiom that are from South Africa. Any help?

Thanks,

Blackcatter

****

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: South African Folk Music
From: Amos - PM
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 10:49 AM

Blackcatter:

The artists most known for SOuth African folksong collecting are Josef Mirais and his wife Miranda. Their songs include those derived from the English tradition, the Dutch tradition, and a touch of Zulu here and there. From memory, some of their favorite songs:

We've Been Invited to Henrietta's Wedding
Out in the Wide World, Kitty
Oh, Brandy Leave Me Alone
The Zulu Warrior
Around the Corner, Behind the Bush
I'll See My Little Darlin' When the Sun Goes Down
Ian Vidiavitch (sp?)
Tonight All the Folks Will Cut the Corn

...and I have forgotten more than those!

Hope this helps,


A

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:08 PM

..... but I DO think it is a helpful thread for raising consciousness about the fact that Mudcat, not to mention the musical tastes and multicultural experiences of its members aren't quite as limited as may have seemed the case.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:31 PM

thread.cfm?threadid=6378#1358945

[see these two reposts from an oh so very tangentially related thread]:

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 11:20 PM

Thanks again, Masato, and Hello, Q.

It's interesting how we three keep meeting up like this!

I have appreciated receiving information, feedback, and links from you both and from other Mudcatters.

Q, I have visited the Fiddle Tunes website and will certainly bookmark it. You wrote that " Even in the 20th c., collectors like Randolph, Cox, Belden and others mostly ignored [these rhymes} or did not collect them, except for a few like Old Dan Tucker and Buffalo Gals which, as far as we know, mostly derive from minstrel roots."

end of quote..
Given this fact, it seems to me that a critical question that should then be considered is "What are minstrel roots?"

One mistake I will admit to making is that I thought that only Whites were minstrel performers. Actually, as I'm sure you know, a number of African Americans "blackened up" [put cork on their skin to darken it in the "honored" minstrel tradition] and performed on the minstrel stage, sometimes in mixed Black-White revues, and also in all Black minstrel revues. One book on South African music, African Stars {Veit Erlmann:Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1991} has a chapter on the tremendous influence on 20th century {Black} South African music of the Virginia Jubilee Singers, an African American minstrel group. That group, under the leadership of Orpheus McAdoo, performed in South Africa from 1890-1898. Erlmann suggests that since many of the songs were translated, the popularity of the songs may have been because of their tempo and the off stage presentation of the Black peformers who were considered success stories. One example of this "success" was that while they were in South Africa, the members of the Virginia Jubilee Singers were given the designation of "honorary Whites". . But all of that is another story...      

Back to the good ole U.S.of A... There are many resources on the Internet and elsewhere on United States minstrel music. I have taken the liberty to quote extensively from the website Angel Fire
[Sorry. I don't know how to hyperlink}
http://www.angelfire.com/sc/bluesthesis/minmed.html

HOW THE BLUES AFFECTED RACE RELATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES
                Minstrels & Medicine Shows
"Minstrel and medicine shows gave whites an opportunity to be introduced to and explore the culture of blacks with the excuse of show business to fall back on. This section describes how these shows began improving the relationship between blacks and whites by stretching it beyond the master and slave relationship even before the Civil War. Minstrel shows were musical events often featuring white performers who painted their faces and dressed up like blacks. Beginning in the 1830s, minstrel shows were popular all over the United States and their influence on race relations remains ill-defined. On the one hand, they gave many Americans their first sampling of black music1. Whites in blackface traveled the country playing music that they had heard performed by blacks living on plantations in the South2. On the other hand, they operated to feed the white stereotype of blacks. However, if it is true that imitation is the utmost form of flattery, then these shows were evidence of white's attraction and fondness for black culture....

Medicine shows were extremely popular in America around the turn-of-the-century. Many white country blues performers started out as traveling songsters. Among these are Roy Acuff, Dock Boggs, Fiddling John Carson, Frank Hutchinson, and Uncle Dave Macon. These shows influenced race relations because they featured and entertained blacks and whites. One of the most famous medicine show songsters was Jimmie Rodgers, also known as the father of hillbilly or country and western music. Rodgers's career began in medicine shows where he occasionally put on blackface and frequently played with Frank Stokes, a black songster of Memphis from whom he is thought to have acquired much of his song collection. He demonstrated his indebtedness to black music in songs such as his "Blue Yodels." While borrowing techniques and learning from blues artists, Rodgers was also influential to bands such as the Mississippi Sheiks. In 1930, the Sheiks did "Yodeling, Fiddling Blues" which could be a tribute to Rodgers6

Like the minstrel shows, the medicine shows often involved blackface performances and were also a place where whites and blacks could share something - music and entertainment. Their popularity in America began around the turn-of-the-century and continued after the Civil War (1860-1865) and through the Reconstruction period (1865-1877). These shows were the birthplace of both country and blues. The emancipation of slaves gave the black musicians, typically referred to as songsters, the power to travel around and actually make a living playing music. Their song collection included tunes both black and white in origin. They played country dance pieces, minstrel songs, spirituals, and ballads7. William Ivey of the Country Music Foundation confirms the existence of a common repertoire between the early country musicians and the early blues musicians forcing a type of business relationship even at the peak of segregation8. The noted blues historian, Robert Palmer, says "the music of the songsters and musicians shared a number of traits with white country music, with musicians of each race borrowing freely from the other. But even though many white and black songs were similar, black performing style, with its grainy vocal textures and emphasis on rhythmic momentum, remained distinctive9." It was this distinction that made black entertainers indispensable and continued to cultivate white appreciation for black music.

end of quote.
The footnote sources are found on the website as are other articles, and a listing of the books that were used as resources...

Some may consider this a serious case of thread creep. To you I apologize, but I feel strongly about this subject and also beleive that this information might be of interest to others reading this thread.

****

Subject: RE: Origins: Who wrote Polly Wolly Doodle
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 17 Dec 04 - 11:57 PM

Um, well I have to admit another mistake or two.

The Virginia Jubilee Ministrels were in South Africa from 1890-1898 so I meant to say that they had a tremendous influence on 19th century South African music, not the 20th century.

And I spelled "believe" wrong in that post, and maybe other words too.
I wanted to make those corrections before people started virtually tromping on me for carelessness.

[Thanks GUEST,Lighter for giving the correct meaning of "tromp".
I know you said the use of that word wasn't recommended, but some people think that anything goes on the Internet...Of,course I'm not one of them...]

****

;0)

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 09:58 PM

IMO, it is impossible to hear/participate in/play music from other cultures, peoples, places and NOT be influenced by that experience. Musicians know no colour--the only things that really matter are the willingness to learn and the willingness to teach.

When I have questions about African music or culture, Azizi's the lady I ask. She's forgot more than I'm ever gonna know. And I thank her for sharing her knowledge so willingly.

For your thread: (Google)

TONAL HARMONY AS A COLONIZING FORCE ON THE MUSIC OF SOUTH AFRICA

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:00 PM

MY tongue was in my cheek about the quiz, sorry if that wasn't clear. Thanks for clarifying.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:01 PM

Worth looking at, IMO.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:02 PM

BuckMulligan,

Re the quiz, I thought that you were serious. Sometimes I am too...

And btw, you're welcome.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:09 PM

That's a great resource, Peace!

Thanks for posting it.

Maybe this thread can also serve as a place to post online resources on African music that might not fit in specific Mudcat threads on this topic.

This is already occurring with that link you provided and the one
on the African Music Encyclopedia that I shared upthread.

I'm open to that.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:15 PM

Peace, somehow I just saw your 17 May 06 - 09:58 PM post..

Thanks, I appreciate your comment.

I know that we all here are learning from each other. And sometimes we're having fun while we do so.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:29 PM

Though some may not think that the following comment relates to the subject of this thread, I wholeheartedly believe that it does.

thread.cfm?threadid=72978#6560

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton - PM
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:28 PM

I've been studying folk music for over fifty years and I've come to the conclusion that I really don't quite know what it is. So, it's the music, words. culture and history that are important to me.

I have tried to approach it from a musical standpoint. Tried to learn to play it, see what makes it tick from the standpoint of harmony, melody, modes, rhythm, counterpoint, vocal and instrumental.

I used to think that it was a form of expression that was somehow separate from other forms of music, and now I don't believe that anymore. I hear jazz in the blues, blues in the appalachian songs and bluegrass, country sounds in the blues, popular music in the ballads (even the trad ones), minstrel tunes in bluegrass and old timey, American banjo playing in Irish music, Irish keening in mountain ballads, minor singing against the major chords of the hymns, religious in the secular and secular in the religious. I hear folk in the rock music, African music in Motown and Hip Hop, and now Hip Hop is all over the world. I hear be bop in B.B. and down home blues in Bird. I hear the wailing of Indian shanai in Coltrane. Scott Joplin, Jelly Roll Morton, Fats Waller and James P. Johnson in Mississipi John Hurt, Rev. Gary Davis and Big Bill.
I hear thirteenth chords and diminished chords in Pete's banjo. I hear the "concert artists" such as Jean Ritchie and Redpath following a traditional classical music pattern of performing for paying audiences. Doc Watson plays "Over the Rainbow" and Rockabilly when he does his accoustic country counterpoint. I hear Jimmy Rodgers and Texas Gladden in his singing. Also Ernest Tubbs. I hear the Golden Gate Quartet and Dixie Hummingbirds in the Bluegrass gospel music. "It Is No Secret", a Gospel hymn by Stuart Hamblin, a Country/Western singer (when they had that category) was a staple of African-American gospel churches. I hear old English parlor songs in the Carter Family and some vaudeville numbers there too.

In short, I no longer believe that there is one clear path to American folk music. It's a big stew and the solution to the problem of learning it is to study how it's been used in the extraordinarilly various ways. Sometimes, a genre creeps in that seems definitive and then that is shown to be influenced by something else. A solution to it's study for me has been to learn how so and so does it and look to the background and history of the song or tune.

The person that tries to keep folk music pure is tilting at windmills. As human beings in geneology, we are all said to be descendents of Halfdan the Warty and Erik the Fart but I think we probably go back to preZinganthropus in the Oldavai Gorge in Africa. Music follows our species in the same way, a long river with myriad tributaries.

There is no pure English, Irish, American, Scottish or any other national or international music but there are elements that we recognize and honor. They can be studied, played, sung and enjoyed with the rigors of learning any musical discipline through notes or without notes. The artists that we admire have cultivated a craft through spending a lot of time at it and whatever it turns out to be reflects that sincerity, conviction and perspicacity that it takes to learn it.

Frank Hamilton

-snip-

Btw: this post was part of the Mudcat search engine's listing of posts on the topic of African music. I guess that's because the word "Africa" and "African" are used.

Be that as it may, I'm certainly glad I found this post.
And I very much agree with the comment which follows that one:

Subject: RE: This Forum & American Folk Music
From: Jerry Rasmussen - PM
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

Wonderful posting, Frank!

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 May 06 - 09:28 AM

Quinteto Mambo Jambo music exchange HULL

Quinteto Mambo Jambo ... are inspired by the many styles and rhythms of Cuba & the Caribbean, Brazil and Africa, and love to blend these sounds with jazz, boogie, bluegrass and even European styles to create a rootsy & joyously vibrant sound of their own - one that's good for dancing as well as listening.

More in the thread linked above.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 06 - 11:59 AM

Susan, while the information about the Quinteto Mambo Jambo group is interesting, in my opinion, including links & posts in this thread about any or all African African Diaspora music styles [such as Caribbean music, African American music, Latin American music] would muddy the purpose of this thread as I conceptualized it.

Furthermore, it seems to me that it would be perferable if this thread does not include links to threads or posts about upcoming or ongoing performances and concerts featuring groups that perform African music or music that includes some African influence, unless those threads or posts discuss the musical genre, and is not primarily an announcement of the musicians' performance itself.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:05 PM

It is a link to a group described as having African roots. I'm sorry if my contribution doesn't fit what you were asking for. Maybe the subject is a bit broader than your view can limit.

If you ask for contributions, they may not fit your vision, but then a normal thread is just that, and not something upon which you can impose an editors' view. This is a thread-- not a permathread.

Also, your definition of "African Music" may not work for everyone, and may not be the only viable definition. If you mean music of Africa in Africa by Africans-- I'm sorry, there is just too much text in this thread to wade trhough, to quickly come to such an understanding.

This is the way of Mudcat threads-- they become what they become. It doesn't usually work to limit them, unless one is running a permathread.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:12 PM

Aziz: I'm sorry, but I cant really see the point of this thread. I applaud your efforts to try to set up a useful resource, but I think it is already too big and unwieldy to use in any practical way. And this is only with you putting up a selection of posts found by searching on Africa or African. What happens when you search under the names of individual countries.I just took a quick glance, and there are over 300 posts with Zimbabwe or Zimbabwean, for example. Admittedly only a proportion of these will be about music, but this all seems to me to show we have too much stuff to shove into a megathread in a linear structure.
    I may be completely wrong, but this a subject that interests me, and I cant really see how to use the thread.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:35 PM

Azizi,

What Mudcatters have done in the past to encourage and support new members is to engage them in PMs and undertake to offer to help them find things.

Most of us here, at one time, did not have a clear understanding of how to use Mudcat's many features effectively, and were helped by someone else until they found their own way around. I know that you still have trouble using some of these features yourself, but you can always count on your friends here to help you extend a helping hand to newbies.

Perhaps the most effective way you might help friends find topics in which you share an interest is to give them the link to your own posting record-- it's a list of links to all the threads where you have posted, and it would make a menu of starting points for others to join discussions you have found interesting. As far as I know, non-members can use that link too.


These are the links I am talking about:

MUDCAT FAQ

JOIN MUDCAT

SEND AZIZI A PERSONAL MESSAGE AT MUDCAT

FIND AZIZI's POSTS


I know our site features pretty well-- if I can help someone find their way, I'm happy to help.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: GUEST,WYSIWYG
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:38 PM

Yup, they work for non-members, except of course that trying to PM you without being logged in prompts me to join or log in. But your posts come right up.

~Susan

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 May 06 - 01:57 PM

I'll try to post in more detail later but two of my favorite African performers were King Sunny Ade of Nigeria and Jaluka from South Africa.

Subject: RE: African Music Threads & Posts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:01 PM

If Azizi wants to attempt to synthesize or collect African music information that has been posted in various threads and assemble it here, I see nothing wrong with that. On the other hand, I see no reason for Azizi to attempt to control what other people post here. Let's not waste our time discussing process and procedures here - this is supposed to be a thread about African music.
-Joe-