BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:00 AM

400 !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM

Honest - It only showed 399 when I posted !!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:54 AM

Well mr Davies, I disagree with you. In my oppinion, the only thing the Israelis did wrong is they did not go all out in ther retaliation. They were held back by Olmert who is evidently not a warrior.

Therefore they did not gain anything. Nor did they loose anything. The stage is being set for round 2 and maybe this time they will go all out.

It seems that they are afraid of the bad pr generated by Hezbollah courtesy of MSM.

I think it is notable that Iran is not in such good financial shape despite oil revenuse. An economic emabrgo would bring it to it's knees but Russia and China and others would not participate.

That's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 01:37 PM

Actually the Israels were held up by the Lebanese resistance led by Hezbollah who turned their border villages into strongholds where the Israeli soldiers had to fight for every house.The surrounding hills were also occupied and it meant that the Israeli got ambushed with RPG s and anti tank missiles,snipers and landmines.

Almost all the villages were gutted by Israeli shell fire ,tank round and machine gun bullets.The devastation has been immense but the Israelis lost tanks,armoured bulldozers and men.They will try again but I dont think the ground war will resume in the immediate future.More likely the Israelis will continue tio destroy the civilian targets mentioned in the Amnesty Report issued today.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM

Here's a link to the amnesty international report.

The environmental damage inflicted by Israel will plague the Lebanese for years to come.

I wonder if Israel will help pay for the clean-up and reconstruction?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:29 PM

"Civilian victims on both sides of this conflict deserve justice. The serious nature of violations committed makes an investigation into the conduct of both parties urgent. There must be accountability for the perpetrators of war crimes and reparation for the victims."

"Amnesty International is calling for a comprehensive, independent and impartial inquiry to be urgently established by the UN into violations of international humanitarian law by both sides in the conflict. It should examine in particular the impact of this conflict on the civilian population, and should be undertaken with a view to holding individuals responsible for crimes under international law and ensuring that full reparation is provided to the victims."

Two parts of the report that will no doubt be overlooked by some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

From Amnesty's site:

Lebanon
In Lebanon, hundreds of civilians were killed by Israeli forces in attacks on residential areas causing massive destruction. Others were killed in attacks on vehicles as villagers were heeding the calls by the Israeli army to leave their homes in South Lebanon.

On 7 August, more than 50 civilians were killed in one of Beirut's neighbourhoods, Shyah. Amnesty International (AI) delegates in the country visited the area the day after Israeli bombardment and found a scene of utter devastation, with bodies of women and children still being pulled from beneath the rubble. Israeli forces had not issued any prior warning to the inhabitants of the impending air strikes. Shyah, had been considered safer than other districts and people who had fled their homes from other parts of the country, had sought shelter there.

As more areas were targeted by Israeli forces the number of displaced people grew: a month into the conflict about one million people – a quarter of the entire population of Lebanon – had fled. Since the ceasefire, many are returning home, but tens of thousands have no home to return to.

Israel
In Israel, some 40 civilians were killed in attacks by Hizbullah on towns and villages, including Haifa, Kiryat Shmona, Nahariya, Safed, Ma'alot and Acre. Hizbullah launched thousands of rockets into northern Israel, many of them in areas populated by civilians. AI delegates who visited the north of Israel to investigate the attacks found evidence that some of the rockets used by Hizbullah contained thousands of metal ball bearings. These increase the potential for fatalities as people not in immediate vicinity can be killed or seriously injured by the spray of ball bearings.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM

sIx -

Sure enough, fair point! I know I know I depart from the thread topic sometimes, I see connections between all sorts of things and have to see where they lead... but I'll try to desist in future!

BTW - (and this is the last one, promise!) : true, the Apaches didn't have wiping out the white man off their agenda, they just wanted to be let live as they always had, free to go where they pleased in their own land. And look what happened to them!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:24 PM

The Amnesty International report is a two parter. The first part is about what Israel did and the forthcoming second part will be abut what Hezbollah did.

Stay tuned

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM

Well, Mr. Guy-- (can I just call you Old?)--you have admitted the Israelis did not go "all out". This perception has caused a lot of discontent in Israel--it's as if they could not decide whether it was purely a military campaign or also a political maneuver. As a result they wound up doing neither well.

Also, if you don't think solidifying opposition against you, which Israel did do with its destruction of Lebanese infrastructure (and accompanying "collateral damage") is a negative development--you should think again.

And it was totally unnecessary--seizing border territory, in response to Hezbollah's provocations, would have incurred much less opposition from Lebanese in general--and not inflamed the Arab world. So it would have been a temporary solution--this is the Mideast---attempts at permanent change can easily backfire. Consider Mr. Bush's campaign to push democracy--in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories. Not precisely the results he wanted.

From what I read, Israel's attack on Lebanon far from the border was also premeditated--it was hoped that this would raise opposition to Hezbollah by Christians and others who would resent the destruction Hezbollah had brought on Lebanon.

And it worked--for a few days.

Then, as the civilian death toll rose, the tide shifted against Israel. And the continued bombing solidified that trend.

As I said earlier, Hezbollah miscalculated--but Israel did also--and the latter was far more serious.

And if you think "going all out" is the solution, you must have been a big fan of World War I--that's how it started. Now, as then, the other powers will not sit idly by.

Good thing your power to set foreign policy is limited, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:06 PM

The Israelis made some mistakes.

They will learn from them.

They won't make the same mistakes twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:14 PM

There are plenty of other mistakes to be made.

Interestingly enough, I've read recently--believe it was in the Economist--speculation that the ceasefire may in fact last longer than expected--since Hezbollah won't be eager to jeopardize their new position as heroes of the Arab world--and since they also now have responsibilities---I gather in the reconstruction activities in Lebanon.

But it also would not be smart for Israel to start up the war again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:24 PM

Ron:

One of Hezbollah's justifications for the attack was because Israel is still occupying land that Lebanon claims was taken from them even though it was taken from Syria. I don't see how taking more land fixes anything.

Any retaliation that is not premeditated is belligerence which is what the Lebs are claiming.

I think the Christians and non Hezbollah supporters are more pissed off at Hezbollah after the destruction but how would we know with Hezbollah faking the "news" you see coming out of Lebanon.

From what I gather, you can't tell the Hizbollah fighters from the innocent civilians because they don't have uniforms. 90% of the innocent victims might not be innocent. They were told to leave because the shit was going to hit the fan. Even leaflets were dropped. Why didn't they leave if the were not Hizbollah?

Then there is the Martyr thing. They are told their life will never be worth a shit because of the evil enemy. If they die they will help their country, go to heaven and be honored as a Martyr.

I think WWI started when Archduke Ferdinand got assassinated on a bridge in Sarajevo.

They got archdukes in Lebanon? They sure don't have many bridges left.

The only way Hezbollah is won is by bullshitting gullible people into thinking they won.

Let them pound their chest and mount an even fiercer attack and see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:28 PM

Old Guy--try doing some reading about World War I--especially about the interlocking alliance systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:36 PM

And you're right about the bridges--one of Israel's more stupid moves. That's the sort of thing perceived as senseless destruction by most Lebanese--the argument of preventing resupply of Hezbollah doesn't cut much ice with them. It just turns their anger toward Israel--and their support to any group that opposes Israel--e.g. Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:36 PM

Try reading about Muhammad taking Mecca. What is a Hudna?

This ceasefire is a Hudna.

I think that is more germaine to what is happening in Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:14 AM

OK. Very Good. We've had a nice debate that has run on and probably equals any debate at the UN. AND we have accomplished about as much as the UN. Now contestants, the time has come to cast your votes as to the question, "Is Hezbollah Winning?" We shall ignore the question of winning "WHAT?" and only focus on winning "WHERE?" If you think Hezbollah has won on the ground, put a YES by the number 1 (see below). If not, place a NO by your number 1.

If you believe that Hezbollah has won in the main-stream American media, place a YES by your number 2. If not then a NO by number 2.

Thirdly if you believe Hezbolla has carried the day at this Mudcat Thread, place a YES by the number 3. If not, then a NO by your number 3.

A word of caution to those who may be of the female gender who support the Hezbollah postion. Your are not allowed to vote. You are to remain ensconced in your burkahs with veil in place and keep silent.

1. NO
2. YES
3. NO

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM

Jarema Wisniowiecki. Don't know why he seems to fit right into the present theme.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:47 AM

I think you will find that very few women in Lebanon wear the burkha....that's worn in afghanistan which is several thousand miles further east.Just another example of the islamophobia among the zionist supporters on this site.Actually the Israels slaughtered christians,muslims and secularists during their invasion.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:36 AM

hugo, that last line WAS A JOKE! Get it? Don't be so serious. Grow a sense of humor and above all else vote!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:50 AM

This is a time of terror, no voting aloud.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM

1. No
2. Yes
3. No

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:14 AM

1. NO
2. YES
3. NO

"Jarema Wisniowiecki" Didn,t he play in the outfield for the Red Sox?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:20 AM

LOL! Fat Old Woody talking about "bullshitting gullible people"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM

Hugo the expert on Lebanon:

Do the women vote in Lebanon?

Howcome Hezbollah goes around handing out those evil $100 US bills instead of Livres, Rials or Syrian Pounds?

Where did the $100 bills come from? Tehran or Syria?

Why is it necessary to doctor photos and fake "news" footage if the truth is so obvious?

Maybe you shoud read this book:
Pity the Nation: The Abduction of Lebanon
From Publishers Weekly
Fisk, a former Middle East correspondent for the London Times , details violence, sundry political factions, the 1982 invasion of Israel, the efforts of the multinational peace-keeping force and the taking of Western hostages. "A passionate and often angry book describing how Lebanon 'humiliated the West, brought shame upon Israel, corrupted the Syrians and destroyed itself,'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM

Old Guy - The truth is that with digital photography, you can't believe any of the images you see anymore but you keep referring to
photos and fake "news" footage. Do you have proof of this or is this a general statement referring to all news coverage?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:47 PM

Come on Old Guy. You started a great thread but the time has come to cast your vote. We gotta clear the way for the next round and the subsequent debate: VOTE   VOTE    VOTE

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:12 PM

"14. Calls upon the Government of Lebanon to secure its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel and requests UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11 to assist the Government of Lebanon at its request;

15. Decides further that all States shall take the necessary measures to prevent, by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft:

(a) The sale or supply to any entity or individual in Lebanon of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, whether or not originating in their territories; and

(b) The provision to any entity or individual in Lebanon of any technical training or assistance related to the provision, manufacture, maintenance or use of the items listed in subparagraph (a) above; except that these prohibitions shall not apply to arms, related material, training or assistance authorized by the Government of Lebanon or by UNIFIL as authorized in paragraph 11;"


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution/1701

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:14 PM

"Emphasizing the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasizing the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis, including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers,

Mindful of the sensitivity of the issue of prisoners and encouraging the efforts aimed at urgently settling the issue of the Lebanese prisoners detained in Israel,

Welcoming the efforts of the Lebanese Prime Minister and the commitment of the Government of Lebanon, in its seven-point plan, to extend its authority over its territory, through its own legitimate armed forces, such that there will be no weapons without the consent of the Government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the Government of Lebanon, welcoming also its commitment to a United Nations force that is supplemented and enhanced in numbers, equipment, mandate and scope of operation, and bearing in mind its request in this plan for an immediate withdrawal of the Israeli forces from southern Lebanon,"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:12 PM

BB--

Fine words, but as to the peace-keeping force which is supposed to oversee all this--and prevent a recurrence of war--Steven Colbert of all people hit pretty close to the mark, discussing the fact that France has pledged 400 soldiers.

"400 soldiers--ce n'est pas une Peace-Keeping Force."

But I also think Israel is foolish to raise yet more obstacles to the "peace-keeping force". The more soldiers--from any country---in this proposed multinational force which is to stand between Israel and Hezbollah, the better for Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:30 PM

There have been dozens of articles about how footage is staged and photos have been altered to make things look bad in Lebanon.
If you havent seen it you must be blind. Remember the fact that Reuters canned someone who faked photos? Look at my posts of 08 Aug 06 - 08:21 &08:26 PM.

http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/personal-opinions/hizbullah-s-filthy-methods/

Hezbollahs Filthy Methods

For the past 11 days, we have seen Israel bomb all sorts of targets and I am sure most of us were wondering why would Israel bomb a certain factory or a construction yard or a truck..

If we can for a moment turn off all the local and international channels who have nothing to do but show little dead children and dismembered bodies that touch the viewer to a certain degree that it would blind them, and think about the reasons behind those hits.

From a military point of view, you have a fully equipped army, ranked in the top 5 armies in the world fighting against a guerrilla militia with absolutely no info on its fighters, weapons and locations.

Even though the Israeli army is way superior in terms of weapons, technology and size than Hezbollah, its war must be a very cautious and tactical one since its fighting a guerilla militia.

We have seen Israel for example hitting a tissue factory in a small village in the south. The reason for that would be Hezbollah move around with a missile in a truck, park near a factory and fire a rocket then flee. The origin of the rocket being the factory, Israelis respond by hitting it.

A witness to a similar action went on TV and urged Hezbollah fighters to stop coming into his village to shoot rockets and then run away since the village is being destroyed.

Same for the truck that was carrying civilians and that became very suspicious when it was not allowed to enter the UN offices.

Fighting a guerrilla is very hard and knowing that they could shoot from anywhere, we should expect attacks on unusual places.

Innocent people are dying this is true, but I believe the way Hezbollah is operating and its filthy methods in infiltrating villages and using them as launch positions is causing all those casualties.

Of course Israelis have hit bridges recklessly during the day killing innocent civilians trying to cross the bridge, but its war and you always have victims.

On the other hand, the party thats hitting civilians randomly and threatening innocent lives is Hezbollah who is launching rockets with no sense of direction whatsoever. I have seen rockets land on balconies, small cafes, walls… anything but military targets.

Finally, I heard that Hezbollah has accepted that the government negotiate on the prisoners fate today, therefore I hope that they realized they haven't achieved anything except self destruction politically and militarily and most of all the destruction of Lebanon and putting it in economical ruin for the next 5 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:08 AM

1. NO
2. Yes but not just American MSM
3. Can't figure out the question

Where is Hugo with the answers?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:26 AM

It's fair to assume that if the Palestinians kidnapped John Prescott or Dick Cheney ,the govts of Britain and the US would unleash a storm of protest followed by a firestorm on anyone who defended the action.

Yet when Israeli Defence Force soldiers arrested the Palestinian deputy prime minister Nasser Shaer last weekend there was barely a whisper.The next day troops surrounded the home of Mahmoud Al Rahami _secretary general of the Palestinian Legislative Council _and detained him in broad daylight.

With these arrests five members of the Hamas led Palestinian cabinet and some 25 Hamas MPs are now in Israeli custody.

Even before the Lebanese war ,Israel was carrying out musrder.In July it the Israeli military killed 163 Palestinians in Gaza and 36 of those were children.
The number of Palestinian fatalities in July was the highest ofany month since april 2002
.
Having lost in Lebanon ,Israel is now punishing the Palestinians even further .
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:55 AM

Not a single Answer from Hugo, Only more propaganda.

How does this sound Hugo Ol Pal:

"Throughout the years, the subject of Hezbollah has become somewhat taboo in Lebanon and ill speaking of the Party of God can, even to this very day, land you in a jail cell courtesy of the Military Intelligence service, or much worse, a bullet in the head ( Ten days after the beginning of the conflict, a major Lebanese broadcasting station announced that eighteen people were summarily executed by the Hezeb after having been accused of spying for Israel)."

The sad truth about Hezbollah tactics - a detailed follow up
I am writing it for several reasons, the main one to clear many misunderstandings created by my previous document, and also to shed more light as to why I am doing this.

In the following lines, I will try to describe in the best way possible, what is meant by the article.

I broke it down into three main parts to enable the reader to fully grasp the ideas I am trying to convey:

    * Who I am and a general background about me
    * Why I am doing this
    * The facts used to reach the conclusions

Firstly, let me introduce myself. I am a Lebanese citizen. I am a Christian, of Maronite confession.

For me, Lebanon comes first before anything else. This is how I was raised.

For close to two years, as a fighter in the Lebanese Forces, I resisted the Syrian plans to occupy the Christian sector of Beirut, then, when the inevitable happened and they finally took the whole country, I endured their occupation for nearly fifteen years, and resisted in the shadows alongside many of my fellow Lebanese brothers.

The last civil war that ravaged my country taught me a very important lesson, and that is, no foreign country wishes any good for Lebanon. They all seek to complete their own agendas, at the expense of the Lebanese people, regardless of religion:

    * The Arabs (Gulf and Egypt): after two unsuccessful wars against Israel, in 1967 and 1973, found it easier to fight Israel using Lebanon as a proxy
    * The Palestinians: after seeking refuge in Lebanon, they used it to launch attacks against Israel
    * The Americans: they usually made sure Israel's best interests were kept , and they also wanted to resist the spread of communism to the Middle East Region.
    * The Soviets mainly supported the Arab countries in their fight against Israel, as they saw it as an opportunity to export communism to the area.
    * The Israelis: even though they assisted the Christian militias in their fight against the Palestinians (PLO) from the mid seventies to the early eighties, they were doing so for their own benefits
    * The Syrians: many of them refuse to consider Lebanon as a free sovereign state and consider it a part of Syria. In 1976, they entered Lebanon as a peace keeping force and soon turned into an occupation force, an occupation that lasted to the year 2005.
    * The Iranians: after the Iranian revolution in the late seventies, they saw the Lebanese Shiites as a medium to expand their Islamic revolutionary ideologies and export them to the other countries.

It is important to note that there is a very big struggle between Iran and Saudi Arabia, a struggle that has its roots in the differences between the Shiite and the Sunni confessions dating back to the assassination of the grandson of the Prophet, Hussein ibn Ali by the Sunnis in Karbala' which is now in Iraq (around the 7th century AD)It is also important to note that throughout the Lebanese Civil war, many Lebanese militias and groups were supported by the different countries listed above, and finally that the war was actually an extrapolation of the Cold war that opposed at the time the two super powers, namely USA and the USSR.

A third point worth mentioning is that 1990, as a reward for its participation in the first Gulf war, Syria was given the green light by America to take over Lebanon. It was by agreement with Israel that Syrian planes flew over Beirut, for the first (and last time), to bombard Christian sectors thus opening the way for Syrian troops to advance.

Also, there has not been a single shot fired in the Golan heights which are originally Syrian but have been occupied by Israel since the six days war of 1967 and war of Yom Kippur in 1973.

So the reader can see why, as a Lebanese citizen, I look at any kind of foreign intervention or assistance with a great deal of skepticism and reluctance.

This said, I will now dive into the second section, which is why I condemn Hezbollah for its use of civilians as shields in the latest conflict that is ravaging Lebanon.

Firstly, I would like to stress that in no way is this a mea culpa or a form of attenuating the impact of my first article which ruffled some feathers among readers who support Hezbollah.

Another important point is that in this is not meant to help, assist, or excuse the Israeli actions. I consider their attack on Lebanon an infringement of Lebanese sovereignty and I demand that this useless bloodshed be stopped immediately.

All the Lebanese agree that there are more peaceful ways in solving the Hezbollah weapons issue, most important being that Syria officially acknowledges the Lebanese identity of the Shebaa Farms, thus allowing it to fall under the mandate of UN resolution 425, which would lead to Israel pulling its troops out, and removing any excuse for an armed resistance within the Lebanese territory.

Throughout the years, the subject of Hezbollah has become somewhat taboo in Lebanon and ill speaking of the Party of God can, even to this very day, land you in a jail cell courtesy of the Military Intelligence service, or much worse, a bullet in the head ( Ten days after the beginning of the conflict, a major Lebanese broadcasting station announced that eighteen people were summarily executed by the Hezeb after having been accused of spying for Israel).

Because of this, many of the party's actions are swept under the proverbial carpet, including the usage of civilians as shields. Had this topic been brought to the open, many lives would have been spared.

To further understand the modulus operandi of this armed faction, it is important to go deeper in their religious beliefs.

Shi'ite religion was founded as a cult of mourning around Hussein, the third Imam. It is dominated by black flags and veils, the ubiquity of mourning, penitence and death, a conspicuous enthusiasm for self-sacrifice, the celebration of suffering, the reverence for martyrdom and the veneration of individual martyrs.

The Shi'ite religion is rooted the concept that while each Shi'ite shares in guilt for the death of the martyrs, one can nevertheless find redemption through a properly repentant attitude - above all through the intercession of an Imam, that is to say: a martyr. And naturally also by following Hussein into martyrdom itself. [1]

Thus, for the Shi'ite, martyrdom is the key to heaven, and this is the main creed of the Hezbollah fighters who do not fear death on the battlefield, but rather seek it.

This is the main key behind the strength of the Party of God and behind their formidable standoff against the repeated onslaught of the Israeli army, and also the main key to understanding the concept of death for those people. To be killed in the war is an honor for them, be you a militant or a civilian.

The main form of fighting used by Hezbollah fighters is guerilla warfare. In fact they have no apparent bases, no barracks where they regroup or any of the standard military formation that is seen in most armies. As guerillas, they fight a mobile war based on hit and run operations. They know that a war of attrition is the worst kind of war Israel can endure and therefore make the most of it. They also know what kind of impact the death of civilians has on the international community and make use of it to the extreme.

I believe that enough has been said about the conflict in the different news medias, so I will not go into how it started or why.

I would like to concentrate more specifically on the latest incident, the massacre of Qana which took place on Sunday July 30, 2006 and where fifty-five civilians, thirty-seven of which were children, and the rest women, perished when a building that sheltered them was bombarded by the Israeli Air force.

In my previous article, I had discussed why, in my opinion, Hezbollah was to blame for this massacre although it was carried out by the IAF. Now, I will describe how, not only myself, but many other Lebanese, have come to this conclusion.

Firstly, as in any investigation, we have to ask the question "who benefits from this".

Although perpetuated by Israeli war planes, and the victims are Lebanese citizens, the beneficiary of this horrible deed is not Israel, this being for many reasons:

    * Despite the American green light, and the UN turning a blind eye, claiming that Israel has the right to defend itself, the Israeli attack on Lebanon was criticized by many communities world wide
    * Anti-Israeli sentiments, initially large among Arab communities, have grown even larger in the aftermath of the Qana tragedy.
    * Israel has much to gain in a swift, surgical victory over Hezbollah, and the longer the conflict lasts, the more innocent civilians are killed, the less surgical and precise the Israeli operation appears.

On the other hand, Hezbollah has a lot to gain in making the conflict last longer since:

    * It demonstrates its efficiency and might in battles lead on the ground.
    * It humiliates the IDF and at the same time, the Arab countries that initially criticized the abduction of the two soldiers in the cross border raid of July 12th. The reader recalls that the combined Arab armies were unable to defeat Israel in two wars.
    * The more civilians are hurt in the conflict, the greater the humiliation of IDF since it appears clumsy, inaccurate and unable to finish off a militia made up of a couple of thousand fighters, when its army counts around fifteen thousand soldiers
    * In addition, the higher the civilian casualty count leads to greater anti Israeli sentiments amongst the Lebanese population and other countries, specifically Arab Muslim ones and therefore to more support for the Hezbollah cause.
    * According to Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, Israel's scope for political maneuvering had been reduced following the events in Qana, as was the amount of European support Israel is receiving for its operation in Lebanese soil[2]

Once the beneficiary has been established, we can move to the second point and that is the evidence on hand.

On the second day of the Israeli attack (July 13th 2006), an inhabitant of one of the southern villages called the Lebanese Broadcasting Cooperation to inform them about Hezbollah militants firing rockets at Israel from the center of the town. Israel retaliated by bombarding the location from which rockets were fired. Luckily, no casualties were reported.

As the days went by, more and more reports were coming from the South about how Hezbollah fighters would fire rockets from locations amidst civilian homes, causing retaliatory bombardment.

The reports came in shyly at first as many people feared retaliation from the fighters, and communications with the rest of the country were cut off by air raids.

But as refugees started to poor into the capital, the stories grew more concrete, yet all the people refused to talk in front of cameras or to be quoted.

The writer had interviewed many of those refugees and the stories told were shocking:

"They would come in on bikes, set up the launcher, fire and then disappear before the airplanes could arrive" said one man from a Christian border village.

"I start to shiver any time I hear a humming noise as it could either be an Israeli Drone plane filming the location in preparation for a raid or the bikes used by the fighters as they come in to shoot their rockets" said a young mother nursing her two month old infant…

A third witness told of how Hezbollah fighters had shaved their beards and come to live in with them in their houses:

"They would leave at sunset to go to the battle field and return at dawn to rest… until the mayor issued a curfew forbidding any one to leave their homes after 19:00h" he added, eyes looking around as if fearful that a word would have been heard by anyone.

"My two sons were shot at as they attempted to leave the town and were forced by the fighters to return to their home" all those reports told of people held prisoners in their own homes as the fighters hid among them.

Some international papers featured articles with pictures. Those papers included:

    * The New York Times, dated July 28th, had an article by Sabrina Tavernise about Hezbollah actions in a southern Christian village named Ain Ebel.
    * The Sunday Herald Sun in the July 30th edition ( ) which showed three pictures of Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.
    * The Guardian which featured an article about Hezbollah modulus operandi ()
    * CNN which showed footages obtained from cameras in drone and fighter planes that clearly indicated how civilian homes were used to hide rocket launchers
    * The Lebanese Forces Blog Site featured many articles describing the actions of Hezbollah guerillas and warning of carnages like the Qana massacre. Some articles include reports from one of the villages where those acts were commited.

Besides the above, it is very interesting to note that Sunni border villages like the village of Shebaa (not to be mistaken with Shebaa farms), where the presence of Hezbollah guerillas is not tolerated nor welcome, was virtually unharmed throughout the onslaught.

In terms of motives, what could have been the motives of the Party of God to commit such a horrible act?

Firstly there is the aspect of causing more humiliation to the IDF as well as provoking the international community into a stronger condemnation of the Jewish state.

But if one was to look closely at the timing of the operation, one would realize the magnitude horror and the cold calculations that took place:

On the nineteenth day, Hezbollah appeared to be making a heroic defense stance, warding off every single advancement attempt by the IDF, while demanding an unconditional cease fire.

For them, an immediate and unconditional cease fire would have been very beneficial since it would allow them to "catch their breath", rearm and reorganize and possibly make a comeback to the battlefield.

Yet, things were seen differently on the international scene.

The Lebanese government, along with the United Nations, had proposed a seven-point plan for the hostilities to cease. The plan was a total solution to the problem and not a simple request for cease fire. The major points were deployment of the army to the south, resolving the Shebaa farms issue, which would lead to the disarmament of Hezbollah.

At first, the plan was vehemently opposed by Hezbollah ministers and representatives, then, on the day following the announcement of the plan by Lebanese Premier Siniora (Thursday July 27th), Hezbollah declared that it supported the seven-point plan.

The declaration surprised many, yet was welcome as a sign of goodwill.

Three days later, the massacre occurred and Hezbollah declared that the seven-point plan was void, that they rejected any talks with Israel as long as there was no UNCONDITIONAL cease-fire. The region was back to square one.

So we have beneficiary, evidence as well as motives determined, I guess that we can clearly rest the case.

Let it be a lesson for the future, keeping silent about such wrong doings will only open the door to more massacres of innocent civilians.

http://www.ouwet.com/othello/other/the-sad-truth-about-hezbollah-tactics-a-detailed-follow-up/

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:02 AM

Photos that damn Hezbollah

Chris Link July 30, 2006 Sunday Herald Sun

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:32 AM

Gee, Old Guy, do you think you could put that in your own words?

I didn't think so.

Aren't cut n' paste articles limited to under a page?

I thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:05 AM

But the site from which Old Guy copied the long article is quite interesting to have a look at and to read the different opinions:

Personal views and opinions of Lebanese forces members

(Lebanes Forces Wikipedia article about them so you know where this comes from. It's not the Lebanese army, it's a small Christian party and former militia)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:15 AM

"the long article is quite interesting to have a look at and to read the different opinions:"

dianavan has shown that she is not interested in different opinions- only those that agree with her preset judgements.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:29 AM

"Aren't cut n' paste articles limited to under a page?"

Not for those to who The Almighty speaks directly!


"threatening innocent lives is Hezbollah who is launching rockets with no sense of direction whatsoever."

I'm getting sick of this tired old line being dragged out all the time...

That is all they have, they don't have the luxury of Israel with billions of dollars of donated sophisticated weaponry So let them get some 'real weapons' like Israel has, then we'll see if they really WANT to 'target civilians'...


And I'm also getting sick of this tired old line being dragged out all the time...

"Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear"

Uniforms COST MONEY better spent on whatever weapons they can get their hands on! It's a luxury they can't afford - you wanna donate to the 'buy a freedom fighter a uniform' fund?

"(pictures show them) using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons."

So when you have nice expensive precise guided weaponry, you STILL need to carpet bomb 10 or more city residential blocks?



"Communism"

Us political code word for 'anybody with an independent mind who won't do what we want them to do, when we want them to do it'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:51 AM

"Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear"

Uniforms COST MONEY better spent on whatever weapons they can get their hands on! It's a luxury they can't afford - you wanna donate to the 'buy a freedom fighter a uniform' fund?



A simple black band ( or other color) indicating affiliation with Hezbollah, and NOT REMOVED when being attacked would suffice. Too bad they can't do that, and that they hide behind women and children.


And they seem to have uniforms in all those pictures of them marching in parades, and shouting "Kill all the Jews"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

AS has been said may times before, Joe has a larger screen than most people.

The main objection to this cut and paste is that it runs counter to what the liberals here want to see.

I think it is more dramatic an pertinent in the writer's own words, much better than I could do because I am not there.

This person might be a Christian but he is Lebanese and has the same rights to speak as other Lebanese.

It contains some anti America sentiment so you cannot claim it is completely biased.

Is there anything in my post that you can disprove? If so, have at it. Cut and paste gladly accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:39 PM

Old Man - It looks like Reuters is pretty vigilant about digitally enhanced photos but...

Like I said, you can't believe any of the photos you see because of our ability to manipulate the images.

Just because one or two have been caught, doesn't mean that all photographs of Lebanon, Israel, Darfut, etc. are fake but...

You have to take it with a grain of salt.

Its certainly not just one side that's doing the doctoring.

bb - I am tempted to use very foul language when replying to your insults but I'll just let you blather on so that everyone knows that you are unable consider the sanctity of human life, regardless of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:05 PM

Are you going to threaten me with violence?

Seems to me all this Liberalisim leads to more death. Yeah, We should have pity on this killer and let him out of jail so he can kill some more.

Pregnant? We can't have that. Out out damned spot.

More than a few photos were faked. Now which photos from the "other side" have been doctored?

Which "side" has the footage showing the same old woman crying over the rubble of her house in two places? Did she own more than one house and both of them were destroyed?

Also do you know if women ca vote in Lebanon?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:05 PM

"I'll just let you blather on so that everyone knows that you are unable consider the sanctity of human life, regardless of religion. "



Unlike some here, I do consider human life REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, sacred.





It seems that some here have a new "peace" song...


"All we are saying....
Is kill all the Jews.

( repaet forever.)"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:20 PM

IDF: Hizbullah may infiltrate Lebanese army
Ilan Marciano
Hezbollah in the Lebanese Army

There is nothing in the world anyone could do if Hezbollah's armed forced become a part of the Lebanese Army. Israel will have to swallow that pill, no matter how bitter. After all, the Hezbollah forces are Lebanese. One should not forget the fact that the PM of Lebanon has endorsed and praised Hezbollah for the resistance and sacrifice.

Nazim , Brussels, Belgium (08.15.06)
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/App/TalkBack/CdaViewOpenTalkBack/0,11382,L-3291682-2,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:10 PM

btw, from UNS1701

"Expressing its utmost concern at the continuing escalation of hostilities in Lebanon and in Israel
*********************************************************

since Hizbollah's attack on Israel on 12 July 2006,

*********************************************************

which has already caused hundreds of deaths and injuries on both sides, extensive damage to civilian infrastructure and hundreds of thousands of internally displaced persons,

Emphasizing the need for an end of violence, but at the same time emphasizing the need to address urgently the causes that have given rise to the current crisis,

**************************************************************

including by the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers,"
**************************************************************

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:35 PM

"Joe has a larger screen than most people"

I have a 20GLsi 1280x1024...

post of 25 Aug 06 - 12:55 AM was MUCH bigger than just one screen...

Now if Joe wants to brag that his is bigger than mine, I'll buy him a beer if he can demonstrate in public...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM

Oh, should have added, not in winter...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:05 AM

Hey Old Guy, You gotta love dianavan's argument: ignore the content of the excellent, intelligent and informative article and criticize the fact that you didn't "follow the rules" concerning cut and paste. What happened to that old situational ethic? Oh, I forgot, rules are for the OTHER guy to follow, right out of Brother Marx and Lenin's manifesto.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Hezbollah Winning?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:30 AM

Whatsamatter, Slag, you can't stand on your own two feet? You wanta gang up with the Old Guy?

btw - I have nothing to say about the article. Maybe if he would try putting it in his own words...

...or just make a statement and back it up with a portion of the article.

I already get your point and quite frankly, you're both dogmatic authoritarians. I tolerate you but I don't have to agree with you.